Christianism?

[electriclite]

All I have to say is "Here, Here!"



My Problem with Christianism (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1191826,00.html)
A believer spells out the difference between faith and a political agenda
By ANDREW SULLIVAN


Are you a Christian who doesn't feel represented by the religious right? I know the feeling. When the discourse about faith is dominated by political fundamentalists and social conservatives, many others begin to feel as if their religion has been taken away from them.

The number of Christians misrepresented by the Christian right is many. There are evangelical Protestants who believe strongly that Christianity should not get too close to the corrupting allure of government power. There are lay Catholics who, while personally devout, are socially liberal on issues like contraception, gay rights, women's equality and a multi-faith society. There are very orthodox believers who nonetheless respect the freedom and conscience of others as part of their core understanding of what being a Christian is. They have no problem living next to an atheist or a gay couple or a single mother or people whose views on the meaning of life are utterly alien to them--and respecting their neighbors' choices. That doesn't threaten their faith. Sometimes the contrast helps them understand their own faith better.

And there are those who simply believe that, by definition, God is unknowable to our limited, fallible human minds and souls. If God is ultimately unknowable, then how can we be so certain of what God's real position is on, say, the fate of Terri Schiavo? Or the morality of contraception? Or the role of women? Or the love of a gay couple? Also, faith for many of us is interwoven with doubt, a doubt that can strengthen faith and give it perspective and shadow. That doubt means having great humility in the face of God and an enormous reluctance to impose one's beliefs, through civil law, on anyone else.

I would say a clear majority of Christians in the U.S. fall into one or many of those camps. Yet the term "people of faith" has been co-opted almost entirely in our discourse by those who see Christianity as compatible with only one political party, the Republicans, and believe that their religious doctrines should determine public policy for everyone. "Sides are being chosen," Tom DeLay recently told his supporters, "and the future of man hangs in the balance! The enemies of virtue may be on the march, but they have not won, and if we put our trust in Christ, they never will." So Christ is a conservative Republican?

Rush Limbaugh recently called the Democrats the "party of death" because of many Democrats' view that some moral decisions, like the choice to have a first-trimester abortion, should be left to the individual, not the cops. Ann Coulter, with her usual subtlety, simply calls her political opponents "godless," the title of her new book. And the largely nonreligious media have taken the bait. The "Christian" vote has become shorthand in journalism for the Republican base.

What to do about it? The worst response, I think, would be to construct something called the religious left. Many of us who are Christians and not supportive of the religious right are not on the left either. In fact, we are opposed to any politicization of the Gospels by any party, Democratic or Republican, by partisan black churches or partisan white ones. "My kingdom is not of this world," Jesus insisted. What part of that do we not understand?

So let me suggest that we take back the word Christian while giving the religious right a new adjective: Christianist. Christianity, in this view, is simply a faith. Christianism is an ideology, politics, an ism. The distinction between Christian and Christianist echoes the distinction we make between Muslim and Islamist. Muslims are those who follow Islam. Islamists are those who want to wield Islam as a political force and conflate state and mosque. Not all Islamists are violent. Only a tiny few are terrorists. And I should underline that the term Christianist is in no way designed to label people on the religious right as favoring any violence at all. I mean merely by the term Christianist the view that religious faith is so important that it must also have a precise political agenda. It is the belief that religion dictates politics and that politics should dictate the laws for everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike.

That's what I dissent from, and I dissent from it as a Christian. I dissent from the political pollution of sincere, personal faith. I dissent most strongly from the attempt to argue that one party represents God and that the other doesn't. I dissent from having my faith co-opted and wielded by people whose politics I do not share and whose intolerance I abhor. The word Christian belongs to no political party. It's time the quiet majority of believers took it back.

[EVILxxx]

That is a very well written article. I don't like the "holier than though" approach that alot of politicians make. I also don't like the idea of a poltical party holding a monopoly over religion. Many times that doesn't swing votes to your side but rather turn some people off to their own religion.
Politics and government are highly corruptable areas of business and religion doesn't really need to involve itself in that.
However people who make politcal decisions based on their morals or religion is not always a bad thing. If a person's poltical ideaology is derrived from their personnal beliefs, religion is obviously going to play a major role in how they shape their political opinions.

[Vong]

This is why there should be a defined seperation of church and state.

Though the politicians aren't the ones to be blamed entirely. In America especially, there are many Christian-right lobby groups, such as the White Evangelicals, who pressure the government and its leader to follow the Christian ideals. Politicians, such as Bush, use the support of the lobby groups to rally support for the party. They appease the theists (generally Christian) to win votes and elections. And in return for the votes, the leader will abide to the demands of the lobby group.

[Lynn7]

It's funny cause I belong to the "religious right" and we RRs always discuss the Bible by going through the Bible and figuring out what God's teachings are. Some are pretty clear and some are hard to know. We have very reasonable discussions and use Bible verses to go back and forth on issues. Sure there are modern issues that may not be talked about directly like the issue of Terri Shiavo and yet it says clearly that we should not murder. My guess is that if you aren't suppose to murder anyone than withholding food and water from someone would not be what God would have us do.

Just a reminder on my stance on the Shiavo issue. I have no problem with taking out an artificial feeding tube but I had a problem with them not being allowed to give her anything by mouth. And the other thing that bothered me was that the parents wanted their daughter to live as is and the husband had already moved on with his life so he could've easily have let the parents have their daughter. I can be downright certain about what Jesus' feelings would be on this issue- it's a no brainer.

If people want to say they are Christians who beleive differently then I would just say, let them back up their beleifs with scriptures. They will have a hard time finding scriptures that support that.

[electriclite]

I say its a fair guess that a certain percentage of these non-Christianists read the Bible as metaphor and not to be read as literal 100% of the time.

But this is all besides the point, this essay is about people who don't want their religion being hijacked by a group or politicians whose methodology they do not share. They're not out to prove their faith to anyone, but to take a stand and say "I do not subscribe to this group's notions or methods although we share the same religion."

[Lynn7]

If that has happened then I think it is at least partly because we have been sterotyped. We are now known as the "religious right" and the media lumps the religious into that one group. I agree that there are different levels of faith at work in the Christian community. I think the Republican party reflects that since many in the party identify with Christiantiy and yet say they are prochoice and have no problem with gay marriage.

I have seen Sullivan on TV many times and think he is interesting but I find it hypocritical that he calls the RR intolerant. He is negatively labeling people whose political beleifs he disagrees with. People on the RR are entitled to beleive what they beleive just like the people on the other side of the issue are. He seems to be saying that HIS Christian views are the normal ones as opposed to the abnormal ones of the RR.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by Lynn7
If people want to say they are Christians who beleive differently then I would just say, let them back up their beleifs with scriptures. They will have a hard time finding scriptures that support that.


Respect civil authority?

[bigred760]

I wholeheartedly agree with the article. I want to live my life the way I want to. I am a Christian, I do go to Church when I can (which isn't much nowadays since I know have to work weekends), but I don't need any religious or political fanatic (or both) telling me how I need to live every second of my life. I curse, I drink, I have sex and I'm not married, and I won't apologize for any of it. I think Rush Limbaugh is an overrated, biased windbag who takes responsibility for very little and blames Democrats for any trouble he has in his life. And Terry Schiavo had herself to blame for her ordeal for not having a living will detailing what she wanted. Although I do fault her parents for involving every pro-life nut out there who wanted to be on CNN (I'm talking to you Jesse Jackson).

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7
If that has happened then I think it is at least partly because we have been sterotyped. We are now known as the "religious right" and the media lumps the religious into that one group. I agree that there are different levels of faith at work in the Christian community. I think the Republican party reflects that since many in the party identify with Christiantiy and yet say they are prochoice and have no problem with gay marriage.

I have seen Sullivan on TV many times and think he is interesting but I find it hypocritical that he calls the RR intolerant. He is negatively labeling people whose political beleifs he disagrees with.


Well he is gay and it was the RR's that were very vocal about their favor of Bush's ant-same-sex marriage amendment to the Constitution. I'm sure he's gotten tired of explaining to people that he is not "that kind of Republican" when he mentions his party affiliation.

And you end up getting stereotyped when the main guys who speak for your group are Pat "Take'em Out" Robertson and Jerry "We asked for 9/11" Falwell and you never say anything critical about stupid stuff they say.
Same thing happens with those associated with Al "Slim Shady" Sharpton and Jesse "Which Camera Am I At" Jackson and a number of other liberals I'm saving you the trouble of trotting out.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by bigred760
I wholeheartedly agree with the article. I want to live my life the way I want to. I am a Christian, I do go to Church when I can (which isn't much nowadays since I know have to work weekends), but I don't need any religious or political fanatic (or both) telling me how I need to live every second of my life. I curse, I drink, I have sex and I'm not married, and I won't apologize for any of it. I think Rush Limbaugh is an overrated, biased windbag who takes responsibility for very little and blames Democrats for any trouble he has in his life. And Terry Schiavo had herself to blame for her ordeal for not having a living will detailing what she wanted. Although I do fault her parents for involving every pro-life nut out there who wanted to be on CNN (I'm talking to you Jesse Jackson).

Rush Limbaugh never has anything to say about his faith. I think he says he beleives in God but that's about as far as it goes. He holds his faith in God on much the same terms as you do. God will not interfere with what he does with his life in any way.

Terri was a young girl when that happened to her. I don't know anyone who has a living will. Not one person. I'll tell you this though. Ihave made my wishes known to my husband my family my friends etc. I would trust my husband completely up unto the point when he meets another girl and has kids with her. Then I would think he might have a conflict of interest about my well being as anyone would.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by electriclite
Well he is gay and it was the RR's that were very vocal about their favor of Bush's ant-same-sex marriage amendment to the Constitution. I'm sure he's gotten tired of explaining to people that he is not "that kind of Republican" when he mentions his party affiliation.

And you end up getting stereotyped when the main guys who speak for your group are Pat "Take'em Out" Robertson and Jerry "We asked for 9/11" Falwell and you never say anything critical about stupid stuff they say.
Same thing happens with those associated with Al "Slim Shady" Sharpton and Jesse "Which Camera Am I At" Jackson and a number of other liberals I'm saving you the trouble of trotting out.

I know tons of people on the religious right. I don't know anyone who claims that Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell speaks for them. They have been marginalized since many years ago in the secular world and they have no clout in the "born again" church community. Politics is just not spoken of in my church or in any other conservative church that I know of. It is the liberal and moderate churches who speak of that stuff on church premises (which they are not supposed to do!).

Now I do know that people who are conservative Christians are affected politically by their beleifs and some speak of it outside of church if we are friendly on that level. When I am at church we speak about the Bible and we might talk about something as it pertains to the bible like abortion. It is not spoken of politically though.

Sullivan has the right to his views but so do conservative Christians. Who are all these fanatical Christian legislators anyway? I can hardly think of any.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Really, it's right at the start of Romans.

[SIREN30]

This was an interesting topic. Sorry I missed it. Just wanted ya'll to know that I feel valid points were made.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by SIREN30
This was an interesting topic. Sorry I missed it. Just wanted ya'll to know that I feel valid points were made.

I think your post in the "Da Vinci Code" thread (in this forum - Politics) is fitting for this thread as well.

[SIREN30]

Thanks. I agree.

[TheAxeGrinder]

As a Christian, I'm embarassed and saddened by narrow-minded individuals who go out of their way in the name of God to 'set things right', when in reality they're full of crap and are out for their own gain, and when they falter, they drag Christianity through the mud with them, painting every other Christian with the same brush.

It's these people who take the bible word for word and don't stop to think about what it's saying. Sure, the bible does say that 'a man shall not lie with another man as the way he lies with a woman', but how Jerry Falwell and others get 'God hates fags' out of that is stupid and ridiculous. As a Christian, you're supposed to love your neighbour as you love yourself. My uncle's gay, and frankly, I don't see the big deal. He's a member of my family, and I love him just as I would if he were straight.

[Lynn7]

I'm not going to make myself a defender of Jerry Falwell but I honestly never heard him say that "God hates fags." That would go against the teaching of the Bible when the bible says that God loves everyone and that he died for us while we were still sinners. It is only through belief in Jesus that we be found not gulity for all of our sins- no man can claim to be better than another cause we are ALL sinners.

[TheAxeGrinder]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I'm not going to make myself a defender of Jerry Falwell but I honestly never heard him say that "God hates fags."

Sorry about that, I confused him with this 'fine' individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps) .

[electriclite]

Originally posted by TheAxeGrinder
Sorry about that, I confused him with this 'fine' individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps) .



Tell me I'm not alone in the fact that when I see pictures of that man I'm either reminded of this guy:

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-03-31/screens_feature-1.jpg

or this guy:


http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/8476/rainkane2.jpg


Is it only me?!

[Joshmo]

Proud hater of the Christian right and far left agendas

Find me a Christian middle group and I'll stop and hear what they have to say.

[echo_bravo]

Proud hater of the Christian right and far left agendas. Find me a Christian middle group and I'll stop and hear what they have to say.

Ditto my good man.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Joshmo
Proud hater of the Christian right and far left agendas

Find me a Christian middle group and I'll stop and hear what they have to say.

Christianity is not supposed to be like that. Jesus said if you are lukewarn he'll spit you out (and that is our leader speaking, lol!)

[darchangel]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Christianity is not supposed to be like that. Jesus said if you are lukewarn he'll spit you out (and that is our leader speaking, lol!)

Please tell me you're joking in this post...



~darchangel~

[Lynn7]

I am not sure what you think I am joking about but if you have a minute or two you can read this passage from the bible and see that Jesus does not preach a middle of the road type of message as many think. The Muslims are not known for their middle of the road faith and neither are the Jews. Why should Christiantiy be any less strong than these? The Christian religion is built on strength and passion and strong resolve of belief, not making nice with everyone:

Matthew 10:16-42
16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 "Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. 24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household! 26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. 34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."


Oh, and here is the actual quote about being lukewarm which is from Revelation in the bible:


14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

[someguy]

I don't know Lynn, I feel kind of in the middle on those passages.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
That would go against the teaching of the Bible when the bible says that God loves everyone and that he died for us while we were still sinners.

From the WBC Faq on their website:

Doesn't the Bible say that God loves everyone?

No. You are probably thinking of John 3:16, which says no such thing. The word translated "world" in that verse (kosmos) NEVER means every individual of mankind who has ever lived (see, e.g., John 17:9). Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau, and Psalm 5:5 says that God hates all WORKERS of iniquity (e.g., fags). Other examples are Proverbs 6:16-19, Psalm 11:5, and Malachi 1:3. Given these verses, how can you say God loves everyone? Can you really say "God loves everyone" when God says "I hated Esau?" Does God love the people in hell?

Or, you are thinking of "God is love." God certainly is love, toward His elect (His children). But He certainly is not love toward the reprobate (children of the devil). That's why His elect go to heaven, and the reprobate go to hell. In Romans 9:13, which says "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated", Jacob is a representative of God's elect, while Esau is a representative of the reprobate. In Romans 1, the word "reprobate" is used to describe fags. Fags are reprobate. God hates reprobates. Therefore, God hates fags.

Furthermore, God specifically says that He ABHORS people who engage in sodomy (as well as other forms of sexual perversion): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them...And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them." Leviticus 20:13,23. Understand? GOD ABHORS FAGS.

God's hatred is one of His holy attributes, whereby He reveals Himself as having a fixed and immutable determination to punish the finally impenitent with eternal perdition. God's hatred is not like man's hatred. His hatred is holy, pure, unchanging, while man's hatred is a sinful, fickle emotion.

[TheAxeGrinder]

MacReady, this quote is both right and wrong.

God, in fact, loves the whole world (John 3:16), whether you are a follower or not. Jesus not only spent time with his disciples and his followers, but also with the criminals, the prostitutes, and outcasts. God loves because it’s His nature to love, and if you exist, you get loved, okay?

But God also has another kind of love: a unique love for His own (John 10). It's those with this unique love that will be saved.

God does not hate all men as creatures but as sinners. God has a general love to all His creatures. But God's particular, intimate love is with the true believers.

Mattew 5:45 states "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

There are two parties angry God and Man. On man's part He is angry with God there is enmity due to sin. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God (Romans 8:7) And from God's part He is angry with the sinner. God loves the sinner but hates the sin. He may hate the persons of wicked men, but for their sins, and not as creatures He created.

God loves homosexuals, not for what they are doing (having sex with a same-sex partner), but for who they are: a creature of God. The same goes for the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, and so on. God hates the act of homosexuality, not homosexuals.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by TheAxeGrinder

God loves homosexuals, not for whatthey are doing (having sex with a same-sex partner), but for who they are: a creature of God. The same goes for the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, and so on. God hates the act of homosexuality, not homosexuals.


I hardly think homosexuality is on the same tier of sin as murder and rape...I actually thought it was in the same verses with sins like wearing polycotton blends and eating beef on Sundays and building a wall around the roof of your house so no one dies from falling off...at least Home Depot workers are going to heaven, because if I want to build that wall, they can help.

And to Lynn, the reason I hoped you were joking is because not having a reasonable middle ground is a great way to end up in a basement somewhere, castrated and self-poisoned (and wearing Nike sneakers no less, the fashion-conscious bastards).



~darchangel~

[Lynn7]

MacReady, the other thing about those passages is that the ones from the Old Testament were when God was teaching the Jews that they cannot possibly live perfect lives. God laid down really hard rules in OT times so men would see that they needed a savior. It was all preparation for when Jesus was to come and forgive the sins of all who beleived in him (through his sacrificial death and resurrection). God really does love everyone even sinners which we all are. But He does have expectations.

Darchangel,
as far as murder and homosexuatiy not being on the same level in Christianity it does not matter. Gossip is just as much a sin as murder. There is a passage in the Bible where Jesus makes that pretty clear where just lusting after someone is adultery. It is all to say that we are all guilty of sinning and no one person can feel like they are above any other.

Also, being middle of the road sounds nice in theory but it often does not work. We see it in our society now. Liberalism has shown it clearly- we want to be kind to prisoners who have had bad lives and suffered as kids so we let them out early with therapy and then they go out and kill an innocent person. We want countries to make nice with each other so we have Israel give up some land to the Palestinians so they can begin to have their own country but look what has become of all that. God knows that we live in a world filled with evil forces and that demands hard decisions and hard actions. People can say that it is preferable for churches to be more middle of the road (I admit that some people who claim to be Christian are just plain hateful) but churches just cannot water down the message of God to come off as what current society would call "nice" God's word is unchanging and His principles are unchanging. But when people study the bible they can ultimately see that God means everything for our good. Even some things that seem hard at the time.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by someguy
I don't know Lynn, I feel kind of in the middle on those passages.
lol!

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Gossip is just as much a sin as murder.


Hahahahahahaha.


Oh my. The irony.

[Vong]

God loves homosexuals

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

- Lev.20:13

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom.1:26-27

Yeah, god sure does love the gays.

[MacReady]

Vong raises an interesting point (althought they aren't the ones who set out to do). Nobody can actually be a 'true christian'. The bible contradicts itself dozens of times ("don't kill anybody/Kill fags").

I'm also amused Lynn's remark that liberalism is not as conservative as Christianity. Remember that time you said Jesus was not a socialist? Then how do you respond to these juicy passage:

Luke 3:11
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Matthew 19:21,24
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[outsyder]

He encourages charity, not socialism.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by outsyder
He encourages charity, not socialism.

Debatable. Luke 3:11 speaks of the traditional "somebody with two dollars should share it with somebody who doesn't", one of the basic tenets of socialism.

Granting you may be right, it's still a lesson that a good deal of the religious right has a tendency to forget.

[outsyder]

Given that socialism didn't exist during the time of the Bible's creation, and that Jesus' teachings were not about FORCING the population to distribute wealth, but people who meet with success should be generous and share it with others of their own free will, not government taxation.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Not to mention Socialism evokes rule by a governing body. There's a huge difference between doing something because faith dictates it, and because a government dictates it.

That's something people like George Bush and the Taliban leaders can't seem to grasp.

[Vong]

Given that socialism didn't exist during the time of the Bible's creation

Just because the word 'socialism' wasn't created at that time doesn't mean its qualities and objectives never existed before-hand.

Besides, people label bible quotes as "liberal" and "conservative" all the time in an attempt to win political and social favor in the political arena.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by Vong
Just because the word 'socialism' wasn't created at that time doesn't mean its qualities and objectives never existed before-hand.

Besides, people label bible quotes as "liberal" and "conservative" all the time in an attempt to win political and social favor in the political arena.


So you support the practice of using religion doctrine to solidify political agendas.

You are comparing something required by a governing law (Socialism) to something people do because of freedom of choice (charity). By your rhetoric, George Bush and Dick Cheney are Socialists because they give money to charity.

Even though both can coexist, there is a huge difference between doing something because it is governed and doing something because you want to.

[TheAxeGrinder]

Originally posted by darchangel
I hardly think homosexuality is on the same tier of sin as murder and rape...I actually thought it was in the same verses with sins like wearing polycotton blends and eating beef on Sundays and building a wall around the roof of your house so no one dies from falling off...at least Home Depot workers are going to heaven, because if I want to build that wall, they can help.

I hope you're trying to be funny with this, and not actually ridiculing what I was trying to say.

I don't know about yourself, but there's really no sin that's more sinful than the next. A sin is a sin is a sin. Forget that venal sin stuff that Catholics talk about. The fact remains that you've committed a sin, no matter if you made fun of someone or killed someone.

As for this socialist stuff, it goes back to what I said about people using the Bible to justify their actions and whatnot. Hiding behind what the Bible says without thinking about what you're doing is stupid.

[Vong]

So you support the practice of using religion doctrine to solidify political agendas.

I never said I supported it. I'm just merely telling a fact.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by Vong
I never said I supported it. I'm just merely telling a fact.

True, true.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by TheAxeGrinder
I hope you're trying to be funny with this, and not actually ridiculing what I was trying to say.

I don't know about yourself, but there's really no sin that's more sinful than the next. A sin is a sin is a sin. Forget that venal sin stuff that Catholics talk about. The fact remains that you've committed a sin, no matter if you made fun of someone or killed someone.




So you think someone stealing money or food to feed their kids is the same kind of sin as raping and brutally murdering an eight-year-old girl?



~darchangel~

[electriclite]

Originally posted by darchangel
So you think someone stealing money or food to feed their kids is the same kind of sin as raping and brutally murdering an eight-year-old girl?



~darchangel~


He doesn't think that, he's merely repeating what is stated in the Bible:

All sins are equal. There are no lesser or greater sins.

[Lynn7]

Christians do not beleive that gossip is the same as murder but in the realm of sin it is the same. Sin is a different thing than levels of doing wrong. Sin is a term that means that we all fall short of God's perfection. We need to be perfect to be acceptable to God but He showed us in the Old Testament that we (humans) are incapable of being perfect in order to prepare us to meet his son (Jesus) a savior who would be coming as prophecied throughout the Old Testment . That is the basis of the Christian religion. No man is less of a sinner than any other man. We are all equally sinners and therefore we all need a savior so we can be forgiven of our sins and become "perfect" in God's eyes.

One analogy of this that I like is that a woman comes before a judge and the judge says she is guilty and says she has to pay a fine of $50. Then he takes off his robe and comes around to the front and says "This is my daughter and I will pay her $50 fine." That is what God does. We are sinners and we are judged guilty and sentenced to death but Jesus pays the penalty and is tortured and dies in our place so whoever believes in him is found to be perfect and acceptable in God's eyes, assuring us of eternal life. That is Christiantiy in a nutshell.