Murtha saying new incident worse

[Lynn7]

than the one at Abu Ghraib. Here is a response from a Marine:

Mr. Murtha's Rush to Judgment

Sunday, May 28, 2006; B06



A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident ["Death Toll Rises in Haditha Attack, GOP Leader Says," news story, May 20]. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

In the United States, we have a civil and military court system that relies on an investigatory and judicial process to make determinations based on evidence. The system is not served by such grand pronouncements of horror and guilt without the accuser even having read the investigative report.

Mr. Murtha's position is particularly suspect when he is quoted by news services as saying that the strain of deployment "has caused them [the Marines] to crack in situations like this." Not only is he certain of the Marines' guilt but he claims to know the cause, which he conveniently attributes to a policy he opposes.

Members of the U.S. military serving in Iraq need more than Mr. Murtha's pseudo-sympathy. They need leaders to stand with them even in the hardest of times. Let the courts decide if these Marines are guilty. They haven't even been charged with a crime yet, so it is premature to presume their guilt -- unless that presumption is tied to a political motive.

ILARIO PANTANO

Jacksonville, N.C.

The writer served as a Marine enlisted man in the Persian Gulf War and most recently as a platoon commander in Iraq.


________________________________________


If it is true that these Marines murdered people then they should be brought to justice but by Murtha grandstanding like this it can only help to bring the terrorists lots of great support for their cause at just a time when the US and Iraq has been making some gains. His comments will also put thousands of innocent hard-working soldier's in harm's way. He is a turd.

[QUENTIN]

His COMMENTS will put them in harms way? No that's utterly ridiculous Lynn. Bush put them in harm's way when he deployed them to a country they didn't need to attack.

[Lynn7]

His grandstanding will put them in harm's way. He doens't have to make such spectacular speeches. Even if there were some murderous Marines it should not be treated in a way that puts our other good people in jeopardy. And that is what he is doing.

People keep trying to make out like this is the Vietnam war- it isn't the same thing in any way. It seems silly to me. And now they are starting to pull out the old war songs from the 60s. It doesn't apply. If we pull our troops out the entire Middle East will be in for a huge trauma and then we will reap the whirlwind too. Jesse James just went to Iraq and he said the soldiers beleive in what they are doing and that they are really helping people.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Even if there were some murderous Marines....

The glibness in that statement is frightening.

And again, how do words effect the outcome of the war? That's preposterous and goes against everything Bush has grandstanded about in regards to all the reasons he went through with this war, despite a large portion of the country saying they're against it. What happened to all of that Big Dick talk he threw around about doing what he knew was right. If the war is truly a righteous one, then no amount of words should change sentiments about that unless there is a predisposed doubt present. How in the hell protest or accounts of wrong doing on our part would empower an enemy is beyond me.

"Look Osama! One of their politicians is talking! Now is the time to attack."

Shit man...

[Lynn7]

It is not hard to imagine that out of thousands of marines there might be some who are murderers. It is statistically probable that it could happen. Having said that, I hope in this case it is not true. I'm not sure how I would react if I was in a hostile territory and a bomb went off and I heard gunfire around me that I might not freak out and shoot a few people. I mean they are walklng around with guns and under enormous stress.

It is important how our poiticians handle this stuff. Look at what happened after those people sexually humiliated those prisoners? That was blown way up to be a sensational news story for public consumption and it made life hell for the good soldiers. I just think that althought this stuff should be discussed it should be done with the understaning that we are affecting the lives of many innocent people in harm's way. We have a responsibiltiy to keep them as safe as we can. Murtha can make sure justice is done without endangering our soidiers' lives. Isn't he the one who just won the profile in courage award from the Kennedy's? Maybe he is still flying high from that great honor and yet there will be consequences to this.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
It is not hard to imagine that out of thousands of marines there might be some who are murderers. It is statistically probable that it could happen. Having said that, I hope in this case it is not true. I'm not sure how I would react if I was in a hostile territory and a bomb went off and I heard gunfire around me that I might not freak out and shoot a few people. I mean they are walklng around with guns and under enormous stress.


I really love you Lynn - You totally justified cold blooded murder because of job stress, yet you still think Clinton screwing around with interns makes him a horrible president.

It is not hard to imagine that out of thousands of politicians there might be some who are lecherous. It is statistically probable that it could happen. Having said that, I hope in this case it is not true. I'm not sure how I would react if I was in a hostile work environement and had limited private time with my wife and I heard the sweet voice of a young willing woman who was in love with me that I might get a freak on and screw a few people. I mean they are walklng around with boners and under enormous stress. ;)

[bigred760]

CNN did a story on this; a little girl who was a survivor of the "attack," and hearing her describe the events reminded me a lot of The Professional and how Gary Oldman and his 'troops' killed the family.

I sincerely hope that these events did not happen. But if they did, than those responsible need to be punished, and punished accordingly. If they're "under stress" than they shouldn't be there. There's no need for them to go busting into a house and shooting anybody that walks up.

[Vong]

Perhaps this (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/13/military.suicides.ap/index.html) story is related in some way.

[Lynn7]

Interesting story. I wouldn't have any problem beleiving it is true and yet it is a big mistake because then stuff like this can happen. Soldiers are trained to be tough under severe circumstances and that is for a good reason. If people are weak before they go in then they are a timebomb waiting to go off.

The soldiers are risking their lives daily and it must be terrible to know that at any moment you can get blown up when you least expect it. It is much worse if you are mentally ill.

[MacReady]

I love how the Hannity crowd insists that soldiers who's training was incredibly grueling, who were made to feel like dirt by their sergeants, who were made to go to their physically limits and to be prepared for extremely stressful, are the exact same people will also break down, cry, and lose concentration when they're in battle before being killed by evil terrorist whenever somebody on the news says something that might hurt Bush's approval ratings.

[electriclite]

Yes Marines are trained to handle and work in intense and severely stressful situations, but what's the timetable for how long they can put up with that level of tension and stress? Each person's threshold for handling stress is different. Sure they may make it past boot camp, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll all be able to handle long-term daily stress of being an occupying force engaged in guerilla warfare.

For something like this to happen is a spotlight on mental stress this occupation is. I mean first a bomb goes off, a marine dies and BAM all out slaughter of men, woman and CHILDREN!? It just sounds like someone snapped and that gave permission for others to follow suit. This stuff just builds and builds and eventually someone finds an outlet and everyone else follows that

My father is a Vietnam vet, and I never really realized exactly how fortunate he is to remain sane, because he would tell me stories about guys who were so scared and so stressed because the Viet Cong,literally, could pop out of anywhere at anytime (kinda like an insurgent and/or a carbomb). Sometimes entire platoons would be separated from their commanding officers and be in the jungle for weeks. One guy got so paranoid that on a night watch he heard something in the distance and just started firing, and when the platoon heard the shooting they immediately came out and all fired as well. The next morning they went to see what they had shot.... it was a water buffalo which they had, and I quote, "turned into hamburger".

All it takes is one loose guy, to start a bloodbath. But that being considered that means a majority had their wits, but gave into the panic which is definitely against training and these men need to be brought to justice, not just because what they did was nothing short of atrocious, but because this could've gone the other way and they could've been directly responsible for the deaths of a number of other Marines. This is most definitely what they would consider "conduct unbecoming an officer", to say the least.

This whole venture is going to turn out ugly whether we pull out or whether we stay longer. You can't makes Marines into the police for people in a foreign country for too long because eventually this stuff is going to happen.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Lynn7
It is not hard to imagine that out of thousands of marines there might be some who are murderers. It is statistically probable that it could happen. Having said that, I hope in this case it is not true. I'm not sure how I would react if I was in a hostile territory and a bomb went off and I heard gunfire around me that I might not freak out and shoot a few people. I mean they are walklng around with guns and under enormous stress.

It is important how our poiticians handle this stuff. Look at what happened after those people sexually humiliated those prisoners? That was blown way up to be a sensational news story for public consumption and it made life hell for the good soldiers. I just think that althought this stuff should be discussed it should be done with the understaning that we are affecting the lives of many innocent people in harm's way. We have a responsibiltiy to keep them as safe as we can. Murtha can make sure justice is done without endangering our soidiers' lives. Isn't he the one who just won the profile in courage award from the Kennedy's? Maybe he is still flying high from that great honor and yet there will be consequences to this.

Over reacting, being frightened by a sudden attack, and perhaps accidently shooting a few innoncents is one thing.

Going to several houses and shooting anyone who was in there without mercy is quite another. According to eye witness statements the Marines shot a blind man who was in his late 70's that was praying. It was basically house after house and just killing anyone who was inside. I was watching the National and an Iraqi girl said that she pretended to be dead to avoid execution. Then after the houses the Marines found a cab down the street, hauled out the passengers and killed every one of them.

I can't even begin to understand the daily over bearing stresses that Marines and all the men/women serving over there face. But there is absolutly no excuse for a massacre on this level of men, women, and children. None whatsoever.

Their actions definitely shouldn't be any kind of representation of what everyone else in combat is like. This was probably a lot of loose cannons and all it was going to take was one more attack for them to completly lose it. I hope they're all punished swiftly and properly.

This does make me wonder how many other soldiers are on the brink of breaking down and doing something terrible.

[someguy]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Even if there were some murderous Marines

Hold it, we need some clarity on this statement. You seem to be acting pretty flippant over what the marines did, do you really see it as no big deal?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by someguy
Hold it, we need some clarity on this statement. You seem to be acting pretty flippant over what the marines did, do you really see it as no big deal?

OK here is clarity- I think it is possible that something really bad happened here. I think if someone killed innocents they should be tried and convicted and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. In fact the punishment should be harsh becasue their actions could result in the endangerment of the good soldiers who have not done anything wrong. I just think that our congresspeople and our newspapers should try to be responsible here so good soldiers are not killed.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
OK here is clarity- I think it is possible that something really bad happened here. I think if someone killed innocents they should be tried and convicted and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. In fact the punishment should be harsh becasue their actions could result in the endangerment of the good soldiers who have not done anything wrong. I just think that our congresspeople and our newspapers should try to be responsible here so good soldiers are not killed.


How will that result in more soldiers getting killed?

And again, I hate being the one bringing the topic up this time, but we know what dragging the Clinton scandal out did for making blow-job a dinner topic. You are telling me that your morals dictate that murder can be justified, but not lechery.

[echo_bravo]

IF this terrible shit is true...then lock the fuckers up. They are a disgrace to our country and to Marines everywhere.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by echo_bravo
IF this terrible shit is true...then lock the fuckers up. They are a disgrace to our country and to Marines everywhere.

Watch what you say, echo. You might have just set-off a roadside bomb outside of Baghdad.

[echo_bravo]

Watch what you say, echo. You might have just set-off a roadside bomb outside of Baghdad

LOL

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
How will that result in more soldiers getting killed?

And again, I hate being the one bringing the topic up this time, but we know what dragging the Clinton scandal out did for making blow-job a dinner topic. You are telling me that your morals dictate that murder can be justified, but not lechery.

Excuse me? Did you read what I wrote? How in the world do you interpret my words to excuse murder?

[Criminal Rock]

here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060602/ts_nm/iraq_usa_ishaqi_dc_5;_ylt=Anjlipx46bHVBKRwwKGLdbRX 6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

Well, it doesn't matter anyways... all charges were cleared.

It kinda sucks though, you know... because now we don't have a reason to hate them.

And by "them" I mean “the white's”.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Excuse me? Did you read what I wrote? How in the world do you interpret my words to excuse murder?

What the hell is there to interpret from your post? You seem to say that people should be punished if they do something bad they should be punished, but also punishing them might endanger other soldiers.

Your posts here are terrifying as you strongly seem to aim at a Soviet style state-controled media where things that hinder at the agenda of the (right-wing) government are censored so as to secure the country from evil external and internal forces.

[Criminal Rock]

Try re-reading her posts peoples...

“I think if someone (the soldiers) killed innocents, they should be TRIED AND CONVICTED AND PROSECUTED to the full extent of the law. IN FACT, the punishment SHOULD BE HARSH becasue THEIR (the soldiers) actions could result in the endangerment of the good soldiers who have not done anything wrong.”

From what I read, she said that if the soldiers are guilty of the charges brought up against them (though, we all know now that they’re not), then they should be punished accordingly... not only because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’ll curb any resentment toward the crimeless portion of our military, being the larger portion, therefore possibly preventing a larger catastrophe then the situation already is.

Your posts here are terrifying as you strongly seem to aim at a Soviet style state-controled media where things that hinder at the agenda of the (right-wing) government are censored so as to secure the country from evil external and internal forces.


:rolleyes:c'mon mac, lets stop the bullshit. :rolleyes:

[Lynn7]

Thank you, Tai.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
:rolleyes:c'mon mac, lets stop the bullshit. :rolleyes:

I misread it, but don't pull that shit on me too soon. She kept on saying in this thread that negative news about the war endangers, and that the media should try their darndest not to post negative shit about the war, exactly what would make Bush's cabinet a happy one.

She did liken the behavior of her opposing debaters to Communism once.

[Lynn7]

It is negative news that is SENSATIONALIZED that I object to. Not the fact that the news is out there. I just think people should be responsible. For Murtha to say this is worse than Abu Graib, is true but saying that to the media was meant to bring really hostile emotions out of everyone. It is just not responsible. It would've been better for him to stick to the facts and leave the editorializing alone. He could've said : "This is a very serious charge and we will do everything in our power to get to the bottom of this and if there has been wrongdoing, we will proseccute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law."

You and another keep bringing up my communism comment and are restating it to give it a certain spin. When everyone condemns someone for having a different opinion than they do then THAT is like communism. I have a different opinion on just about everything that you do but I recognize your right to have that opinion and would never condemn you for it. If people try to scream me or ridicule me or threaten me into having the same opinion then that is communism. There was no freedom of thought under that philosophy. Everyone had to think like the state or face the consequences.

[someguy]

Lynn isn't giving off a Soviet vibe in her posts, but I'm kind of not exactly getting how you can solve the problem of having a negative story about the soldiers not be negative or sensationalized.

In Abu Ghraib, Americans were torturing prisoners. It's no wonder that the story got big. These are Americans, the same people from the country whose leaders go around saying that the point of invading Iraq was to stop a torturer. Plus there's the Geneva convention.

Of course the soldiers will be given a pretty full punishment once it gets the media's attention, but it'll be impossible to wipe off the negative image. These are soldiers that are murdering innocents and unnecessarily torturing prisoners. There's no way to kind of make it look positive on the other soldiers. The only way to make the soldiers look good is if they simply didn't do this stuff.

I'm just not getting the whole sensationalized thing. I mean, the soldiers who are there to protect the civilians are murdering the civilians. That's pretty 'sensational' right there.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
It is negative news that is SENSATIONALIZED that I object to. Not the fact that the news is out there. I just think people should be responsible. For Murtha to say this is worse than Abu Graib, is true but saying that to the media was meant to bring really hostile emotions out of everyone. It is just not responsible. It would've been better for him to stick to the facts and leave the editorializing alone. He could've said : "This is a very serious charge and we will do everything in our power to get to the bottom of this and if there has been wrongdoing, we will proseccute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law."

As someguy said, this is a big goddamn issue. Why is it that whenever a terrorist is spoted we must nuke whatever country he might be living in as soon as humanely possible (if not sooner) but we need to fill out lots and lots of paper work slowly, then maybe, hopefully, the public will have forgotten about the whole thing.

Althought they might be innocent, I find it extremely cold the way you insist this must be dealt with the upmost apathy.

Originally posted by Lynn7
You and another keep bringing up my communism comment and are restating it to give it a certain spin. When everyone condemns someone for having a different opinion than they do then THAT is like communism. I have a different opinion on just about everything that you do but I recognize your right to have that opinion and would never condemn you for it. If people try to scream me or ridicule me or threaten me into having the same opinion then that is communism. There was no freedom of thought under that philosophy. Everyone had to think like the state or face the consequences.

I made a misstep, and I apologize. I also know I shouldn't be getting into this kind of argument, but I will state that oftentimes your logic simply doesn't make any sense at all. Yet you keep using it over and over again. I was mad not because of your views, but why you believe in them.

Anyhow I'll stop adding fuel to this part of the conversation now.

[Lynn7]

They don't make sense to you but they do to me. And I am not alone in my views. Why do you think conservative radio is so big? It is where people like me can gather together and share our points of views. That is why Rush Limbaugh has many millions of listeners each week. You and I are on opposite sides of the political argument but it doesn't mean there is no value on one side or the other. Since the beginning of time there has never been a political unity in any place or if there was it didn't last long. It will just never happen. At least in a democracy we can discuss those differences and still be friendly. Many people who are very dear to me are extremely liberal. I love them and they love me even though they know I am conservative! We can and do put our politics aside.

[MacReady]

Okay, but don't ever say that the bible is always right because the bible is always right and we should get along somewhat better.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Excuse me? Did you read what I wrote? How in the world do you interpret my words to excuse murder?


Ironically, you have interpreted my use of the word 'JUSTIFY' as meaning 'excuse.'

So, it should be me asking you if you read what I wrote, and asking how you interpreted my words to say you excused (or approved of) yada yada yada.

You totally provided justification for what these soldiers are being accused of doing. You said...

"I'm not sure how I would react if I was in a hostile territory and a bomb went off and I heard gunfire around me that I might not freak out and shoot a few people. I mean they are walklng around with guns and under enormous stress."

Do you know the meaning of the word JUSTIFICATION, as in providing validation?

But none of this matters because you still haven't said how Murtha's statements are putting soldiers in danger. Everyone is asking that of you, and man-o-man have we been all over the map with everything except that.

[Lynn7]

I would never in a million years think that murder could be "justified" because someone snaps mentally. If they did snap and kill those people it was still murder. I'm pretty sure I said that. I am saying that I might have done a bad thing too under the same circumstances. Who is to say? I would hope to God that I wouldn't.


As far as not answering everyone's question about Murtha I already did:

Originally posted by Lynn7
It is negative news that is SENSATIONALIZED that I object to. Not the fact that the news is out there. I just think people should be responsible. For Murtha to say this is worse than Abu Graib, is true but saying that to the media was meant to bring really hostile emotions out of everyone. It is just not responsible. It would've been better for him to stick to the facts and leave the editorializing alone. He could've said : "This is a very serious charge and we will do everything in our power to get to the bottom of this and if there has been wrongdoing, we will proseccute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law."



I just can't think of a way to make it any clearer than this. If people don't understand where I am coming from then we'll just have to leave it at that. Sorry.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
Okay, but don't ever say that the bible is always right because the bible is always right and we should get along somewhat better.

The Bible is always right because the Bible is always right, LOL! Sorry but that is just my opinion. :p

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I would never in a million years think that murder could be "justified" because someone snaps mentally. If they did snap and kill those people it was still murder. I'm pretty sure I said that. I am saying that I might have done a bad thing too under the same circumstances. Who is to say? I would hope to God that I wouldn't.


Justifying, advocating for, seeking to understand -- whatever. You're more content getting into the head of accused killers than the head of an accused - well, whatever you think of Clinton.

My point is that when we are talking about Clinton, you make it very cut-and-dry, but when we are talking about murder (even if it did happen) you are all about "well I could see myself in that situation" --- I happen to think what these Marines are ACCUSED of doing is far worse that everything Clinton was ACCUSED of doing.





[b]As far as not answering everyone's question about Murtha I already did:

I just can't think of a way to make it any clearer than this. If people don't understand where I am coming from then we'll just have to leave it at that. Sorry.


What you are saying is clear, but you still have not explained how that would result in the death of more soldiers, or putting more soldiers in danger.

Are you implying this -

"Look Osama! A politician speaks ill of the war! Now is the time to attack!"

Could you explain it to me in terms like that? What empowering statement would a terrorist say in response to Murtha's comments?

[Lynn7]

I am not excusing the soldiers but they are in dangerous and stressful situation and that can make them snap under extreme duress. They should be punished anyway. Murder is murder.If they did do it that is. Its like a man who finds his wife in bed with another man. If he snaps and kills her everyone knows it is wrong and he will get punished and yet there is some sadness for him too because of what happened to him. It is a shock and a blow.

Clinton. Why are you so sympathetic with him.? Unlike the soldiers he was living the rich life in the White House, had people serving him night and day as all presidents do and had power and fame and popularity. OK, I know! He is a victim of having it too good and that will always result in bad character. And I am not joking here. Look at the celebrities- the bigger they get and they begin to get full of themselves and don't treat others as they should oftentimes.

As far as the soldiers go, they will be in danger because if everyone is hanging them out to dry here (Murtha etc), then over there it will be worse. People will start to say that ALL the soldiers are bad and they may start trying to torure and kill them- only it won't be the ones who may have created the situation- it'll be the innocent 19 year old who hasn't done anything wrong.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I am not excusing the soldiers but they are in dangerous and stressful situation and that can make them snap under extreme duress. They should be punished anyway. Murder is murder.If they did do it that is. Its like a man who finds his wife in bed with another man. If he snaps and kills her everyone knows it is wrong and he will get punished and yet there is some sadness for him too because of what happened to him. It is a shock and a blow.

Clinton. Why are you so sympathetic with him.? Unlike the soldiers he was living the rich life in the White House, had people serving him night and day as all presidents do and had power and fame and popularity. OK, I know! He is a victim of having it too good and that will always result in bad character. And I am not joking here. Look at the celebrities- the bigger they get and they begin to get full of themselves and don't treat others as they should oftentimes.


Yeah, sympathetic - that's a good word. It's much more pertinent to what I'm conveying than 'justify' is. So let me continue explaining this.

It's not that I'm sympathetic with Clinton, or for anyone in question for that matter, but am pointing out that you seem more sympathetic with soldiers murdering people than with a rich boy being lecherous.

Again, I just find it odd that you immediately clamor for words to explain the behaviors of murderous soldiers, but on a nearly daily basis go on and on about Clinton's behaviors, which many of us find to be a much smaller issue.



As far as the soldiers go, they will be in danger because if everyone is hanging them out to dry here (Murtha etc), then over there it will be worse. People will start to say that ALL the soldiers are bad and they may start trying to torure and kill them- only it won't be the ones who may have created the situation- it'll be the innocent 19 year old who hasn't done anything wrong.


This hasn't happened, nor is there any reason to believe it will happen no more than we are to believe that every time a President lies to the public about a matter, that there will be an immediate investigation and impeachment trial.

You might as well be saying that Murtha's words will actually empower the soldiers by making them more aware of their surroundings and giving them more focus on why they are there and in completing the mission --- That is just as hypothetical as what you are saying, and there is as much proof of it being true. So why not? Oh, that's right, you have an MO.

[MacReady]

Along with again pointing out that it's quite callous to simply state that whenever a few (out of literally tens of thousands of) soldiers go on a massacre, the media (and I suspect society at large as well) must show absolute coolness and apathy. I mean, the Iraqi don't deserve this shit.

There's also the fact that if almost all your boys are really on their best behavior, why the ones who haven't done anything wrong think they're killers? They should know these things happen, and if their hearts in the right place, then by all means they should be hoping that the ones who are guilty get caught.

Finally, you must understand that these things might actually make life even more dangerous for soldiers. He's how a cycle of violence might turn out:

1. Occasional rogue goes on killing spress.

2. Civilians start to distrust, fear and hate soldiers for perceived savagery (even if it's just a very small minority).

3. Civilians soon start to work against the occupation and for the insurgency.

4. More soldiers are killed as a result [and as if that wasn't enough]

5. The soldiers, will become start the citizens more and more, and this will only end up degenerating from that point on.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

This just proves that Iraq is like a mini-Vietnam.