Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter hate America [Archive] - Movie Fan Central Discussion Forums

someguy

06-10-2006, 12:54 PM

Sadly it has to get to the point of Coulter saying things like this for people to not take her seriously. This should have happened a lot earlier with all of the other stuff she has said.

Ann Coulter's point itself is kind of screwed up. She says that the 9/11 widows can't be challenged due to some retarded infallibility claim because their husbands died on 9/11. Matt Lauer pointed out that these widows also criticize Bill Clinton for his bad handling before levaing office (although she just says that it's not the ones she is talking about). Lauer also pointed out how they never said that they are infallible and anyone could criticise them if they wanted. This is Ann Coulter doing what she does best, saying the most out there things to get more publicity and sales. It's best to just ignore her and have these networks stop giving her a podium.

For O Reilly, there isn't much to say on him that's already been said. Watching Olbermann effortlessly destroy him again is great to watch. O Reilly is just the worst excuse for a pundit, and with the amount of errors he's been found to make I'm surprised he is still seen as respectable to some.

Squid Vicious

06-10-2006, 03:45 PM

Olbermann is great at calling O'Reilly out on his bullshit. O'Reilly is obviously pissed off about it -- he'll even threaten to turn people's phone numbers over to Fox Security if they mention Olbermann's name on his show:

The audio clip... (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/oreilly-20060303-threat.mp3)

...and Olbermann's response. (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/video/countdown-20060306-oreilly.mov)

electriclite

06-10-2006, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I hate what Coulter said. I don't like it when politics gets this nasty. She should've just said that 9-11 was an attack on our nation and that the individual grievers should not have more clout about foreign policy than any other person. For her to say the widows were enjoying their husbands' deaths was really horrible.

Last week there was a guy at a commencement speech who said Charles Schumer is just the man to put a bullet between George Bush's eyes. He was rightfully criticized for this and Coulter is rightfully criticized for what she said. This kind of talk is going to really damage the country.

See, that's true. She may have had a point in there about certain sides posting up figures who are like scared cows and thereby making an issue unquestionable, but she buried it under her brand of Coulter-fashioned attetnion whoring vitriol. She knows her hyperboles sell her books, otherwise all she'd have to distinguish herself from, dare I say it, more eleoquent conservative writers, is the fact that she's a long leggy blonde.

For her to choose a marketing gimmick over posing a valid point should definitely call to question what exactly it is she holds in higher regard.

darchangel

06-11-2006, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
This kind of talk is going to really damage the country.

I don't think Ann Coulter's hysterical yapping is going to do anything to damage the fabric of this nation more than it already is, seeing as a lot of people in this country realize she's just an attention whore trying to peddle herself to the public, as electriclite said.

~darchangel~

Vong

06-11-2006, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Squid Vicious
Olbermann is great at calling O'Reilly out on his bullshit. O'Reilly is obviously pissed off about it -- he'll even threaten to turn people's phone numbers over to Fox Security if they mention Olbermann's name on his show:

The audio clip... (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/oreilly-20060303-threat.mp3)

...and Olbermann's response. (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/video/countdown-20060306-oreilly.mov)

I love this man...

Lynn7

06-11-2006, 11:57 PM

Ann Coulter Banned in New Jersey?

Two New Jersey Democrats are pushing to have Ann Coulter's new book "Godless: The Church of Liberalism," banned from all bookstores in their state because she criticized four 9/11 widows known as "the Jersey Girls."

In a joint press release issued Friday, New Jersey Assemblywomen Joan Quigley and Linda Stender say they want New Jersey retailers to "ban the sale of [Coulter's] book throughout the state."

"Ann Coulter's criticism of 9-11 widows, whose only desire since the attacks have been to repair their shattered lives and protect other families from the horrors they have experienced, is motivated purely by petty greed and hate," the two Democrats complained.

"Coulter's vicious characterizations and remarks are motivated by greed and her desire to sell books . . . She is a leech trying to turn a profit off perverting the suffering of others."

Quigley and Stender conclude:
"No one in New Jersey should buy this book and allow Ann Coulter to profit from her hate-mongering. We are asking New Jersey retailers statewide to stand with us and express their outrage by refusing to carry or sell copies of Coulter's book. Her hate-filled attacks on our 9-11 widows has no place on New Jersey bookshelves."

As hateful as what Coulter said, I think it's weird that these Democrats want to have it banned. Doesn't that go against the free speech belief? People should be careful to have principles no matter what. This is what I had a problem with regarding NOW and the Clinton women. They used to be really active against harrassment in the workplace (Anita Hill) and when it was Clinton who was involved, there was silence.

QUENTIN

06-12-2006, 02:37 AM

I completely agree with every comment those NJ politicians said and couldn't disagree more with their desired action. Yes, they're right about Coulter. And because they're right, no one should go buy her hateful, insipid, stupid book. But BANNING it and making it illegal to do so, well that's just as stupid, not to mention unconstitutional and morally repugnant. I mean hell, that's the kind of thing conservatives do.

The Postmaster General

06-12-2006, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Lynn7
This is what I had a problem with regarding NOW and the Clinton women. They used to be really active against harrassment in the workplace (Anita Hill) and when it was Clinton who was involved, there was silence.

That is because the legal definition of harassment includes a PERVASIVE PATTERN, OR A HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT, which Anita Hill proved, but "Clinton's women" didn't.

Asking for some sweet love IS NOT HARASSMENT. Go take some employment law classes, or better yet - actually read some of the information I'm giving you.

Look, I'll provide a source -

From The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission -

Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when submission to or rejection of this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment, unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment.

It takes more than seeking retribution over someone shoving their tongue down your throat to claim harassment.

Lynn7

06-12-2006, 04:51 PM

There were hearings for days about Anita Hill who said that Clarence Thomas had mentioned a pubic hair or something like that. Absolutely no other woman could be found who had ever had any problem with him but the country spoke of harrassment for years afterwards. That is until the Clinton stuff came out. Hill, who had been a very populare expert on sexual harrassment up until that time suddenly disappeared from the talk circuit and no one wanted to talk about harrassment anymore. That is what I saw happen with my own two eyes. And I remember that trial vividly cause I was glued to the set the entire weekend.

darchangel

06-12-2006, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7

As hateful as what Coulter said, I think it's weird that these Democrats want to have it banned. Doesn't that go against the free speech belief? People should be careful to have principles no matter what. This is what I had a problem with regarding NOW and the Clinton women. They used to be really active against harrassment in the workplace (Anita Hill) and when it was Clinton who was involved, there was silence.

They may be claiming that Ann Coulter is perpetuating hate speech, which effects can be mitigated by law...

"Various institutions in the United States and Europe began developing codes to limit or punish hate speech in the 1990s, on the grounds that such speech amounts to discrimination. Thus, such codes prohibit words or phrases deemed to express, either deliberately or unknowingly, hatred or contempt towards a group of people, based on areas such as their ethnic, cultural, religious or sexual identity, or with reference to physical or mental health."

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

I can't find any sources on cases involving hate speech in the state of New Jersey...can anyone find one?

~darchangel~

The Postmaster General

06-12-2006, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
There were hearings for days about Anita Hill who said that Clarence Thomas had mentioned a pubic hair or something like that. Absolutely no other woman could be found who had ever had any problem with him but the country spoke of harrassment for years afterwards. That is until the Clinton stuff came out. Hill, who had been a very populare expert on sexual harrassment up until that time suddenly disappeared from the talk circuit and no one wanted to talk about harrassment anymore. That is what I saw happen with my own two eyes. And I remember that trial vividly cause I was glued to the set the entire weekend.

What's your point? Thomas was still appointed to the Supreme Court, despite Hill's claims.

Apparently it also takes more than talking about pubic hair to be found guilty of harassment - what's your point?

echo_bravo

06-12-2006, 08:57 PM

How does Bill O'Reilly hate America?

someguy

06-12-2006, 09:39 PM

By spitting on the WWII soldiers who were murdered by the Germans in order to get in a good talking point

QUENTIN

06-13-2006, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by echo_bravo
How does Bill O'Reilly hate America?

Did you bother to watch the clip? That would pretty well explain it.

Joshmo

06-13-2006, 06:40 PM

This she-beast is a walking PEZ Dispenser of hate.

There's a few stories on Raw Story about how she claimed in her Time Magazine article that she belongs to a certain Presbryterian church...a reporter went to that church and asked about the author of "Godless"...seems the pastor has no records of her being a member - also interesting to note, the pastor said this aint the first time celebrities have claimed to be members and attend service at his church, but yet no records show them as members - most notably - Robin Williams and Diane Sawyer.

Also - Coulter is already being accused of plagiarism in her latest book - not the first time she has been accused of listing entire paragraphs from other sources.

ANDDDDD.... yes..Olbermann ROCKS! He also proved Rudy Guliani to be a hypocrite, because all Rudy has been doing since 911, is giving speeches about 911...every single speech Guliani has given has been about NOTHING BUT 911..so it was without question that Olbermann asked Rudy boy to appear on the show and offer a comment about Coulter's hate speech...guess what? Guliani refused to appear or comment on the bitch.....gee - I wonder if its got anything to do with the fact this howling hound from hell offers up heaps-o-praise to Guliani in her latest book?

All these swine (GULIANI included) feed at the same trough.

Lynn7

06-13-2006, 07:05 PM

Bubba, m y point is that we were lectured continuously about sexual harrassment in the workplace. It went on foreeeeeever. And Thomas was treated like dirt. His reputation has never been the same. He will always have that little black spot next to his name whether he was fount gulity or not.

So you are OK with bosses having relationships with their underlings? What if you suspected that you were passed over for a promotion because someone wasn''t unwilling to take care of the boss? And if it is OK for them to have a relationship is it ok for the boss to hit on an employee? What if the employee fears that if she refuses the boss it might negatively affect her career? These are the things that used to concern women but I guess no more, huh?

Lynn7

06-13-2006, 07:10 PM

Joshmo, You know I have been attending my church for about 12 years but I am not a "member." In many of the Protestant denominations there are people who come and go without being members. I would hope my pastor would know me though and wouldn't have to check the membership. (He does know me). I am suspecting that this must be a very big church with those celebrities claiming membership. Coulter holds to some ot he Christian beleifs but she is not loving and that is a big part of being a Christian. I suspect she does not attend church regularly or she would be more aware of this. When you get in trouble as a Christian is when you stop attending church or reading the bible. That is when a person starts to get hardened again. I've been there many times.

The Postmaster General

06-13-2006, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
So you are OK with bosses having relationships with their underlings? What if you suspected that you were passed over for a promotion because someone wasn''t unwilling to take care of the boss? And if it is OK for them to have a relationship is it ok for the boss to hit on an employee? What if the employee fears that if she refuses the boss it might negatively affect her career? These are the things that used to concern women but I guess no more, huh?

Women are empowered. They know their rights. If wrong-doing is done, it should be dealt with.

Why is it all about the man not being sexless for you? Haven't you ever considered that women hit on men as well?

Again - harassment laws aren't about turning people into sexless drones, but about preventing any wrong-doing.

I don't know why the media made such an uproar about Thomas, except for the fact that the 90s began the move toward political correctness, and it was something people watched.

I mean, damn - you make it sound like he had to go on national TV and address the public about his sexuality - Of course you would think that's blowing things out of proportion if he had to do that.

dman476

06-14-2006, 02:05 AM

I think it is pretty radical to ban a book - I mean who does that anymore? It's true, conservatives would have a bigger inclination to do so than the liberals, and it would be stooping to their level if NJ actually prohibited selling the book. If you're a liberal, there's no reason you should be reading (not to mention buying) the book, unless you want to criticize it and want to make some points.
I got Coulter's "How to talk to a liberal" book (be assured, as a gift), and I'm not impressed by her. Her politics seems to say nothing relevant - a pure liberal bashing. Do liberals do this towards conservatives (well, I don't know too much about Franken)?
Just check this shit out:
"Historically, the best way to convert liberals is to have them move out of their parents' home,get a job, and start paying taxes....Liberals are chock-full of conspiracy theories." Then she goes on to say how most of them pertain to the Jews, yet she has no proof for any of this.
It's just her opinion - definitely a moot point.
She's not debating anything in her new book Godless either - she says it how she thinks it is?
It's ridiculous...her claims regarding the widows of 9/11.
So, they may be using what happened to them as an excuse to bring it to the media's attention, but they have every fucking right to. I'm sure if something like that happened to her, she'd be all over the news (well, she is anyways :/ ) propagandizing her opinions and using what happened to her as an excuse.
Like someone said, I'm sure she'd be waving a flag of support if the the women were proclaiming that going to war was the right thing to do.

Joshmo

06-14-2006, 08:38 AM

Yes, Lynn, you make a good point. I have been there many times as well - But I'm not writing books accusing an entire group of people of being godless - or hating america. Coulter is a major hypocrite and like many on the right, (even the left) espouse christianity and then fail to live at least 1/4 of it (at least publicly - but thats where it counts when ya act like she does and accuse others of being godless - "remove the beam in your own eye"....ya know?

Here's some more goodies about this hound from hell - she's also in trouble for possibly committing felonious voter fraud (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Coulter_hires_Bush_recount_lawyer_to_0602.html) and has hired a Bush White House Lawyer to defend her bony ass

New book attacking 911 widows

Being accused of plagiarism - AGAIN

The Church she claims to attend has no record of her and its pastor never met her

Being investigated for voter fraud

echo_bravo

06-14-2006, 10:43 AM

Did you bother to watch the clip? That would pretty well explain it.

Yeah I watched the clip. O'Reilly got his facts wrong on that subject. It doesnt mean he hates America. Christ people!

Lynn7

06-14-2006, 04:52 PM

Here is an interesting item on Keith:

It's 'Putdown With Keith Olbermann'

Dueling hosts Keith _Olbermann and Rita Cosby (below) could hand the network’s new chief, Dan Abrams, his first battle.

Now that Dan Abrams has given up his MSNBC show to run the third-place cable news outlet, he might want to focus on the rising tensions between two of his prime-time personalities: Keith Olbermann and Rita Cosby.

Olbermann, whose "Countdown With Keith Olbermann" airs weeknights at 8, apparently has precious little respect for Cosby, whose "Rita Cosby: Live & Direct" airs at 10 p.m.

"Rita's nice," Olbermann wrote to a fan from his MSNBC E-mail account, "but dumber than a suitcase of rocks." Yesterday Cosby retorted: "Keith got it wrong. I'm not that nice."

But a Cosby intimate gasped when informed of Olbermann's E-mail. "That's incredibly disappointing," he said.

An MSNBC spokesman didn't dispute the authenticity of the months-old E-mail, which came to light this week after the recipient shared it with this column on condition of anonymity.

In his E-mail, Olbermann was also dismissive of then-MSNBC President Rick Kaplan, who left the network last week with six months to go on his three-year contract.

"And Kaplan?" Olbermann wrote to his fan. "He was the producer of that special last night — now known as the Kanye West Show." It was a reference to an embarrassing incident during NBC's Hurricane Katrina telethon on which the popular rapper departed from his script to claim President Bush "doesn't care about black people."

Olbermann, who didn't comment yesterday, was said to be on vacation — though he managed to turn up Monday night at a book party for Al Gore at the American Museum of Natural History.

There, the media blog Jossip.com asked Olbermann — who was accompanied by "his self-described 'friend' Katie" — if he'll now be answering to Abrams.

"I don't answer to anybody," Olbermann insisted.
__________________________________________________ __

I don't know if Rita Cosby is smart or not but this was certainly stupid on K.O."s part. To put stuff like that in writing to anyone is REALLY dumb.

I think Cosby's claime to fame was always that she was able to get big names for interviews. She interviews them in a soft way and that is why they will often come to her to tell their story. I also dont' think Cosby should've left her Fox news job for a smaller outfit, although maybe she is trying to get a job at NBC like a Couric type of thing for the big bucks.

someguy

06-14-2006, 05:04 PM

I don't see the problem, Olbermann is pretty much doing what he always does on his show. Giving his opinion bluntly. Just because it's his opinion on someone from the same network means it's oh so bad?

The Postmaster General

06-14-2006, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think Cosby's claime to fame was always that she was able to get big names for interviews. She interviews them in a soft way and that is why they will often come to her to tell their story. I also dont' think Cosby should've left her Fox news job for a smaller outfit, although maybe she is trying to get a job at NBC like a Couric type of thing for the big bucks.

Well, just as long as sex isn't involved you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

echo_bravo

06-14-2006, 08:05 PM

Giving his opinion bluntly.

Kinda like Ann Coulter

Lynn7

06-14-2006, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by someguy
I don't see the problem, Olbermann is pretty much doing what he always does on his show. Giving his opinion bluntly. Just because it's his opinion on someone from the same network means it's oh so bad?

It's kind of rude to call someone dumb but of course it is his right to do so. I think if someone is going to call someone dumb he or she should give an example of it so we can judge for ourselves. For instance, someone is dumb because they pay $4 a gallon for gasoline because they like the name of the street that gas station is on.

Also, the network might not appreciate him putting down one of their other anchors. It might not be good for business. If people listen to him and respect his opinions then they might not tune into Cosby's show and that news outlet can use all the viewers it can get.

I don't really care for Keith. I don't find his newscasts interesting.

Ann Coulter is scheduled to be on Leno tonight along with George CArlin. I anticipate a slaughter. A rabid conservative in a liberal audience with liberal CArlin and Leno. You just have to give her credit for bravery. I am cringing just thinking about it.

Raoul Duke

06-14-2006, 11:00 PM

Or kinda like Olberman throws rocks..

And Coulter strangles puppies and then drinks their blood for sustenance.

The Postmaster General

06-14-2006, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
You just have to give her credit for bravery.

Yes, she'll go to any length to plug her new book.

I am cringing just thinking about it.

Me too, but for different reasons.

electriclite

06-15-2006, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Lynn7

Ann Coulter is scheduled to be on Leno tonight along with George CArlin. I anticipate a slaughter. A rabid conservative in a liberal audience with liberal CArlin and Leno. You just have to give her credit for bravery. I am cringing just thinking about it.

Your cringing was for naught. The audience was cheering her and Carlin was very, VERY nice, and Jay was his usual softball self.

Apparently liberals can behave and partake of civil discourse with those that disagree with them:eek: :rolleyes:

Thrizzle

06-15-2006, 12:52 AM

Im willing to bet she made sure she had more than enough support in the audience for the show.

My favorite part of the interview was when she said that it was taboo to criticize the 9/11 widows and this current controversy was proof of that. Thats like Fred Phelps saying people can no longer gather peacefully at military funerals.

ChemicalRomance

06-15-2006, 07:14 PM

O'Reily clip is not working... :(

Lynn7

06-15-2006, 07:39 PM

I taped the Coulter interview but the show started late and then the interview got cut off. I did see some of the cut off part live cause I happened to be up but I think I might've missed some. Wow- I was so shocked. I know she got some boos but she did get tons of applause. I wonder if the audience had been packed with some conservatives or something. It was really strange. I know those were not liberals applauding her. And Carlin and Leno were very nice. It was such a strange show.

Here is some more on Oberman if anyone is interested:
Principles Keith can swear by

Keith Olbermann's angry E-mail responses to critical viewers included broadsides against Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter. Olbermann apologized for his messages.

Keith Olbermann's vacation isn't going so well.
He was forced to apologize yesterday after more of his E-mails found their way to my inbox and exposed the host of MSNBC's "Countdown With Keith Olbermann" as insulting and frequently obscene in an acrimonious exchange with two viewers who taunted him.

Olbermann's antagonists, who asked not to be named, repeatedly claimed in their June 8 E-mails that dead Al Qaeda terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was Olbermann's "hero," prompting the television star to advise: "Hey, save the oxygen for somebody whose brain can use it. Kill yourself."

After I forwarded that and other E-mails to an MSNBC exec, Olbermann wrote: "I apologize to anyone who might take offense at my part of this correspondence. It goes without saying that I should not have replied to these abusive and hateful E-mails, but I wonder how many of us could receive literally hundreds of them questioning our patriotism, religion and ethnic origin, without succumbing to the natural wish to confront such hate?"

Here are some examples of Olbermann "confronting hate":

"Given how far you are from knowing your a- from your elbow about my industry, you couldn't be stupider, wronger, or dumber ..."

"Go - your mother."

"You 'Americans' still watching that evil f- O'Reilly?"
MSNBC declined to comment yesterday, but Olbermann is scheduled to return to work on Monday.

someguy

06-15-2006, 07:49 PM

Honestly, big whoop. I'm more disappointed in Olbermann succumbing to the trolls that e-mail him than telling them to go fuck themselves.

echo_bravo

06-16-2006, 10:06 AM

I have no problem with Olbermann responding with harsh words to emails.

O'Reilly does it on his show and even calls them "pinheads"...good stuff.

darchangel

06-18-2006, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I taped the Coulter interview but the show started late and then the interview got cut off. I did see some of the cut off part live cause I happened to be up but I think I might've missed some. Wow- I was so shocked. I know she got some boos but she did get tons of applause. I wonder if the audience had been packed with some conservatives or something. It was really strange. I know those were not liberals applauding her. And Carlin and Leno were very nice. It was such a strange show.

Oh don't worry Lynn...I'm sure they prepared Her Almighty Innocence for crucifixion immediately after her interview was over.

~darchangel~

Lynn7

06-18-2006, 12:46 PM

She said on another show that Leno and Carlin were very nice to her. I know a liberal audience would not have been applauding her. Especially in light of the fact that what she said even bothered many conservatives.

electriclite

06-18-2006, 08:32 PM

Well let's remember this is a Tonight Show audience hosted by the king of softball, inoffensiveness, Jay Leno. Confrontational is not a word I would use to describe him or his audience.

I would not be surprised if instructions were made to the audience for the evening and the applause sign used to the most "liberal" degree.

As for Carlin's behaviour.... You got me. Maybe he's just grown above that.

someguy

06-18-2006, 09:56 PM

I think Carlin was on the mood of not having to say anything to show how dumb Coulter is

Lynn7

06-21-2006, 08:59 PM

I thought it looked like he was being gracious. It actually was impressive that he took the high road. While I admire her mind I do know she can be very mean and she certainly would not have been gracious under similar circumstances so his behavior did make her look all the worse in this instance. Alec Baldwin should take a page from his book! and Coulter too of course!

someguy

06-22-2006, 07:08 AM

Well, he was there to promote a kid's movie so I'm sure he thought it would be out of line to do that when he's there for plugging Pixar's film. At least he didn't do anything to support our argument for how loony she is. Even when she tried having a go at him he didn't budge.

And for Alec Baldwin, the people who attack him should learn to be more mature too along with Baldwin.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/26/221245.shtml

Lynn7

06-22-2006, 08:23 AM

WEll Baldwin has brought on a lot of this stuff. He is so hostile and angry all the time. It was really awful how he called Hannity a "construction worker" as if that was something to be ashamed of. It shows a lot of condescension on his part and after all, a lot of liberalism is elitism these days. The very rich (Kennedys, Kerrys,Corrazine, etc.) are always speaking sympathetically about the poor in our country while living lives of frivolity and in the Kennedys' case, dissipation. Talk is cheap, as they say. Why not give some of that money to the poor? Why not take some less fotunate people on their yachts for the day, etc. They really do not want to be in contact with the lower class people except when they are giving speeches or shaking hands to get elected.

It's comments like Baldwin's (about the construction worker) that really gie me the icks.

Vong

06-22-2006, 10:43 AM

Did you read the rest of the excerpt Lynn? Hannity and Levin weren't kind to Baldwin. Claiming he had a "two-digiti IQ" and was a "butt boy". I don't think these are signs of a mature radio host. I've heard talk radio before with heated debates up here, but it never led to name calling. Even if both parties (or more) get into a huge fest that you would honestly believe end in bloodshed, they all shake hands and wish each other a good day. That's how debates are handled. Now I'm not defending Baldwin for his comments, I think they are rude and uncalled for. However, true radio hosts and interviewers never attack or antagonize a guest speaker. Even if the guest pushes them to a name-calling fest. Reading this excerpt makes me hate Hannity even more than I used to.

someguy

06-22-2006, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Lynn7
WEll Baldwin has brought on a lot of this stuff. He is so hostile and angry all the time. It was really awful how he called Hannity a "construction worker" as if that was something to be ashamed of. It shows a lot of condescension on his part and after all, a lot of liberalism is elitism these days. The very rich (Kennedys, Kerrys,Corrazine, etc.) are always speaking sympathetically about the poor in our country while living lives of frivolity and in the Kennedys' case, dissipation. Talk is cheap, as they say. Why not give some of that money to the poor? Why not take some less fotunate people on their yachts for the day, etc. They really do not want to be in contact with the lower class people except when they are giving speeches or shaking hands to get elected.

It's comments like Baldwin's (about the construction worker) that really gie me the icks.

Alec's construction worker comment was not bad when you compare it to what Hannity and his friend said. I was angered when they brought up his divorce with Basinger, it was completely uncalled for and a thousand times worse than what Baldwin told them.

And for your rant on Democrats not giving money to the poor, what are your thoughts on the Republican majority government voting to not raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $725 recently, but instead deciding to give themselves a pay raise. I wouldn't exactly say that the Democrats are the only ones screwing over the poor.

JohnTheHenchman

06-22-2006, 12:18 PM

Yeah because raising the minimum wage is such a good thing!

someguy

06-22-2006, 01:37 PM

YES BECAUSE $5.15 AN HOUR IS PERFECT MONEY TO LIVE ON WHAT A PERFECT SOCIETY HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

darchangel

06-22-2006, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by someguy
YES BECAUSE $5.15 AN HOUR IS PERFECT MONEY TO LIVE ON WHAT A PERFECT SOCIETY HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

I'd drink to that, if I could afford to buy liquor when I work for $5.15 an hour.

~darchangel~

Lynn7

06-22-2006, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by someguy
Alec's construction worker comment was not bad when you compare it to what Hannity and his friend said. I was angered when they brought up his divorce with Basinger, it was completely uncalled for and a thousand times worse than what Baldwin told them.

And for your rant on Democrats not giving money to the poor, what are your thoughts on the Republican majority government voting to not raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $725 recently, but instead deciding to give themselves a pay raise. I wouldn't exactly say that the Democrats are the only ones screwing over the poor.

I think that Hannity can be really crappy at times with the way he handles debate. I watch the show on occasion but a lot of times all the debating gives me a headache. And I hate when it gets low and there is name calling on either side. I do agree with Hannity politically though.

It sounds great to raise minimum wage in theory but what you don't see is how it affects small businesses. Small businesses are getting tons of crap thrown at them these days and it isn't fair. Also when the wages are raised the employers usually will have to pass the costs on by either raising prices of goods or else they willl just hire less workers. It's not like the Republicans are against people making money- they just take more things into consideration than the Dems do. The Dems just say give everybody everything but the money has to COME from somewhere. Why not let people look to start in minimum wage jobs and then work their way up to higher paying jobs? It's always worked in the past.

Thrizzle

06-22-2006, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
It's not like the Republicans are against people making money- they just take more things into consideration than the Dems do. The Dems just say give everybody everything but the money has to COME from somewhere. Why not let people look to start in minimum wage jobs and then work their way up to higher paying jobs? It's always worked in the past.

Republicans do take more things into consideration, which makes them really good at balancing budgets. Oh, wait.....

I'm so glad that womanizing spendicrat enviro-nazi Bill Clinton is out of office.

darchangel

06-22-2006, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think that Hannity can be really crappy at times with the way he handles debate. I watch the show on occasion but a lot of times all the debating gives me a headache. And I hate when it gets low and there is name calling on either side. I do agree with Hannity politically though.

It sounds great to raise minimum wage in theory but what you don't see is how it affects small businesses. Small businesses are getting tons of crap thrown at them these days and it isn't fair. Also when the wages are raised the employers usually will have to pass the costs on by either raising prices of goods or else they willl just hire less workers. It's not like the Republicans are against people making money- they just take more things into consideration than the Dems do. The Dems just say give everybody everything but the money has to COME from somewhere. Why not let people look to start in minimum wage jobs and then work their way up to higher paying jobs? It's always worked in the past.

1) If George Carlin had called Ann Coulter something HALF as bad as what Hannity said to Baldwin, you'd be screaming for someone's blood.

2) So where do you think unemployment and welfare monies come from?

~darchangel~

Lynn7

06-22-2006, 09:40 PM

I expected Carlin to go for Coulter's throat. I was shocked when he didn't.

I'm not sure I am following you on the welfare stuff-where does the money come from? I am talking about the strain on small businesses. It is hard for them to stay aflot in the first place and many of them go under.

It's easy for the congress to say raise minimum wages because they don't have to pay it. They do not have to pay the wages of their workers out of their pockets and they do not have to provide worker's comp or insurance or all the other stuff that they want the small business owners to pay. Maybe if they did do this I would respect their decisions more but the Congresspeople are isolated from the real world. Some say we should go back to having a part time congress where the members have outside jobs in the real world during most of the year. Then they might be able to understand the implications of their policies on everyone.

someguy

06-22-2006, 09:51 PM

The whole small business excuse is so tired. More businesses will form, and most of the ones we have now will make it through. The whole reason for not raising the wage is because of greed from big companies, and this looking at all considerations thing is pure BS. Different states have higher wages and I don't see small businesses suffering and dying.

But Lynn, how do you feel about the majority of Republicans deciding to give THEMSELVES a pay raise yet giving nothing to the poorer people? This is basically what you say the Democrats are doing, preaching about helping the poor but being elitist and caring only for themselves.

The Postmaster General

06-22-2006, 09:57 PM

Why can't they enact something like they do with the FMLA, or the Civil Rights Act? Where small businesses (under 14 people or so) are exempt from the minimum wage. That makes sense to me. They might need to watch how they do it, because with internet commerce and overseas partners, some companies could slip through the cracks. But the "hurts small business" excuse is totally lame, when considering how they handled FMLA. It's like people are preaching with blinders on - real black and white sorts of stuff.

Raising minimum wage makes sense. Even JohnTheHenchman has rung in with a quick comment supporting a minimum wage increase, saying how good of a thing it would be, and he's usually against that sort of thing.

notchreturns

06-23-2006, 03:18 AM

Ann Coulter is like number 1 on a long list of things wrong with the US.

someguy

06-23-2006, 08:47 AM

Bubba you make a good point. Why can't they do something like that? Is it because of the Democrats? ;)

Lynn7

06-23-2006, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by someguy
The whole small business excuse is so tired. More businesses will form, and most of the ones we have now will make it through. The whole reason for not raising the wage is because of greed from big companies, and this looking at all considerations thing is pure BS. Different states have higher wages and I don't see small businesses suffering and dying.

But Lynn, how do you feel about the majority of Republicans deciding to give THEMSELVES a pay raise yet giving nothing to the poorer people? This is basically what you say the Democrats are doing, preaching about helping the poor but being elitist and caring only for themselves.

I already said I disagree with the Congressional pay raise for all those milliionaires.

I have been surrounded by small business owners all of my life. They have a hard time making ends meet. And at least one local ice cream business woman used to gripe about how she had to pay kids X amount of dollars an hour minimum and a lot of the kids who worked there were lazy and slow and didn't even show up for work half the time. In fact a lot of times when I am out shopping I hear people complaining that so and so did not show up for a shift- just blew it off totally cause something better came up.

The minimum wage workers are untrained people who often have no responsibility at all. They can blow in and out of jobs as they please. Small businesses make up the majority of American businesses. Look around your town- dry cleaners, convenience stores, coffee shops, luncheonettes, card stores, bakeries, gas stations, cleaning services, landscapaers etc.

These people who own businesses barely eek out a living for themselves and we are going to have Ted Kennedy et al tell them they need to pay higher wages to their workers. And then the owneres won't take home as much and yet they are the ones who pay the rent, the insurance, the worker's comp, etc etc. Let's give them a break. Most people who work minimum wage jobs are just starting out or live at home with families or are in a financial situation that allows them to work for that wage. I did it when I was a kid and it was fine. As I've said before the minimum wage workers in the places I shop do not look downtrodden in any way.

someguy

06-23-2006, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I already said I disagree with the Congressional pay raise for all those milliionaires.

Sorry about that, I took a peek in the minimum wage thread after posting that and saw what you said.

[/b][/quote]I have been surrounded by small business owners all of my life. They have a hard time making ends meet. And at least one local ice cream business woman used to gripe about how she had to pay kids X amount of dollars an hour minimum and a lot of the kids who worked there were lazy and slow and didn't even show up for work half the time. In fact a lot of times when I am out shopping I hear people complaining that so and so did not show up for a shift- just blew it off totally cause something better came up.[/quote][/b]

Here's your first problem with addressing the minimum wage issue. I'm not talking about teenagers. Not at all. I'm talking about the husband or wife with 2, 3 or 4 children to look after while living on $5.15 an hour. You're turning it into a whole 'kids are lazy' thing when it isn't. And not raising the wage up because of some lazy kids is an even worse excuse. If kids are slow or don't show up for work, fire them. It's no wonder that woman was complaining, what's the point of keeping people like that around? I'm sure there's plenty more people that are willing to take the job anyways.

The minimum wage workers are untrained people who often have no responsibility at all. They can blow in and out of jobs as they please. Small businesses make up the majority of American businesses. Look around your town- dry cleaners, convenience stores, coffee shops, luncheonettes, card stores, bakeries, gas stations, cleaning services, landscapaers etc.

Once again, generalizing the minimum wage workers as kids. And your assumption about minimum wage workers just being lazy and not deserving a raise on the wage based on that is baffling to me. A few nights ago on The Daily Show they brought this up and Jon Stewart was joking around saying that the working class of America had their free ride on $5.15 and have to be told about their free loading ways. You are what he was joking over! Ahhh!!

These people who own businesses barely eek out a living for themselves and we are going to have Ted Kennedy et al tell them they need to pay higher wages to their workers. And then the owneres won't take home as much and yet they are the ones who pay the rent, the insurance, the worker's comp, etc etc. Let's give them a break. Most people who work minimum wage jobs are just starting out or live at home with families or are in a financial situation that allows them to work for that wage. I did it when I was a kid and it was fine. As I've said before the minimum wage workers in the places I shop do not look downtrodden in any way.

Lynn, I'm just astounded here at your complete denials in that paragraph. Why do you act like small businesses are never going to exist again? I love your 'let's give them a break' line too, is there any respect for the people who make these businesses keep going? Let's give them a break too, shall we?

Now I want to look at these too parts of what you said.

"Most people who work minimum wage jobs are just starting out or live at home with families or are in a financial situation that allows them to work for that wage. I did it when I was a kid and it was fine."

I'd like to know where this fact came from. And you're doing the same thing AGAIN, assuming that it's all just kids and not actual people with families trying to get by. I want you to kind of accept this and get it out of the way before actually responding to what I'm saying now because it's going to be completely impossible to even make points if you're going to believe people want the minimum wage brought up to benefit teenagers. I'd rather have kids get a few extra dollars as long as people with entire families to feed do too. Now let me look at the final part of your post, and this one is just mind-blowing.

"As I've said before the minimum wage workers in the places I shop do not look downtrodden in any way."

Are you honestly denying that people living on minimum wage have bad living conditions and nearly no money to live on because they look decent when they are working? Just...wow. There's no way to defend yourself on that one.

outsyder

06-23-2006, 04:17 PM

The main problem with attaching minimum wage to inflation rates is that people will not want it to drop with negative market fluctuations.

It's due for an increase, though.

The Postmaster General

06-23-2006, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I already said I disagree with the Congressional pay raise for all those milliionaires.

I have been surrounded by small business owners all of my life. They have a hard time making ends meet. And at least one local ice cream business woman used to gripe about how she had to pay kids X amount of dollars an hour minimum and a lot of the kids who worked there were lazy and slow and didn't even show up for work half the time. In fact a lot of times when I am out shopping I hear people complaining that so and so did not show up for a shift- just blew it off totally cause something better came up.

The minimum wage workers are untrained people who often have no responsibility at all. They can blow in and out of jobs as they please. Small businesses make up the majority of American businesses. Look around your town- dry cleaners, convenience stores, coffee shops, luncheonettes, card stores, bakeries, gas stations, cleaning services, landscapaers etc.

These people who own businesses barely eek out a living for themselves and we are going to have Ted Kennedy et al tell them they need to pay higher wages to their workers. And then the owneres won't take home as much and yet they are the ones who pay the rent, the insurance, the worker's comp, etc etc. Let's give them a break. Most people who work minimum wage jobs are just starting out or live at home with families or are in a financial situation that allows them to work for that wage. I did it when I was a kid and it was fine. As I've said before the minimum wage workers in the places I shop do not look downtrodden in any way.

People made the same arguments against FMLA and the Civil Rights Act. Why can't people like this ever give props to compromise?

Lynn7

06-23-2006, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by someguy
Sorry about that, I took a peek in the minimum wage thread after posting that and saw what you said.

I have been surrounded by small business owners all of my life. They have a hard time making ends meet. And at least one local ice cream business woman used to gripe about how she had to pay kids X amount of dollars an hour minimum and a lot of the kids who worked there were lazy and slow and didn't even show up for work half the time. In fact a lot of times when I am out shopping I hear people complaining that so and so did not show up for a shift- just blew it off totally cause something better came up.[/quote][/b]

Here's your first problem with addressing the minimum wage issue. I'm not talking about teenagers. Not at all. I'm talking about the husband or wife with 2, 3 or 4 children to look after while living on $5.15 an hour. You're turning it into a whole 'kids are lazy' thing when it isn't. And not raising the wage up because of some lazy kids is an even worse excuse. If kids are slow or don't show up for work, fire them. It's no wonder that woman was complaining, what's the point of keeping people like that around? I'm sure there's plenty more people that are willing to take the job anyways.

Once again, generalizing the minimum wage workers as kids. And your assumption about minimum wage workers just being lazy and not deserving a raise on the wage based on that is baffling to me. A few nights ago on The Daily Show they brought this up and Jon Stewart was joking around saying that the working class of America had their free ride on $5.15 and have to be told about their free loading ways. You are what he was joking over! Ahhh!!

Lynn, I'm just astounded here at your complete denials in that paragraph. Why do you act like small businesses are never going to exist again? I love your 'let's give them a break' line too, is there any respect for the people who make these businesses keep going? Let's give them a break too, shall we?

Now I want to look at these too parts of what you said.

"Most people who work minimum wage jobs are just starting out or live at home with families or are in a financial situation that allows them to work for that wage. I did it when I was a kid and it was fine."

I'd like to know where this fact came from. And you're doing the same thing AGAIN, assuming that it's all just kids and not actual people with families trying to get by. I want you to kind of accept this and get it out of the way before actually responding to what I'm saying now because it's going to be completely impossible to even make points if you're going to believe people want the minimum wage brought up to benefit teenagers. I'd rather have kids get a few extra dollars as long as people with entire families to feed do too. Now let me look at the final part of your post, and this one is just mind-blowing.

"As I've said before the minimum wage workers in the places I shop do not look downtrodden in any way."

Are you honestly denying that people living on minimum wage have bad living conditions and nearly no money to live on because they look decent when they are working? Just...wow. There's no way to defend yourself on that one. [/QUOTE]

I just have to go by my experience. I can honestly say that I dont' know anyone working a minimum wage job who has to support a family. It would be impossible on $8 an hour, let alone on 5.15. Most minimum wage workers ARE teenagers or women who are married to men who are working somewhere else. I dont' care where I go- whether it is where I live or if I go to New York City or downtown anycity. Teh people working in minimum wage jobs do not fit into the catergory that you would put them into. Those people work in factories, or are in service jobs such as cable men, telephone repair, carpet cleaners, window washers etc where they make a lot more that minimum wage. It is impossible to support a family on minimum wage. It always has been. So people will look for jobs that pay more. They do this all the time.

In arguments like these, I need to look around to see if what is being said by the arguers is founded on truth or it it is just being said to promote a certain argument. Even statistics can lie so I like to look around myself. Your experience may be different than mine but like I said before, I have seen many small businesses in my time and of course many small business minimum wage workers. People typically START in those jobs and work their way up. As you might imagine, I talk to a lot of people and I get into a lot of conversations with people who work where I shop. They often tell me about their lives, their kids their husbands or in most cases it is just kids who are going to high school or college.

Look, in view of the gas price increase, I think they should lift minimum some, but not so that people can raise families cause that would be traumatic on small businesses.

One more thing- I dont' think all teeenagers have a bad work ethic but a bad worker is paid the same as a good one with the minimum wage.

echo_bravo

06-23-2006, 08:04 PM

LMAO at all these people on this board wanting minimum wage raised. The only reason you guys want it higher is so you can support your DVD buying habits and your theater-going addiction.

Also, to the arguement that minimum wage should be raised so it helps out parents raising up to 5 kids....bwahahaha. Umm, they shouldnt of thought they could support 5 kids on minimum wage. It just isnt possible. Should of worn condoms.

QUENTIN

06-23-2006, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I As I've said before the minimum wage workers in the places I shop do not look downtrodden in any way.

You live in Massachusetts. It's a rich part of the country. Rich white kids work in your mall doing minimum wage jobs, yes. That is NOT the case of most minimum wage workers or across most of the country.

Originally posted by Lynn7
In arguments like these, I need to look around to see if what is being said by the arguers is founded on truth or it it is just being said to promote a certain argument. Even statistics can lie so I like to look around myself.

That's a great way to avoid the facts Lynn. Of course your personal experiences are more relevant and more accurate than national statistics. Do you understand what "anecdotal evidence" is and why it's considered irrelevant in real discussions, arguments, and debate? It seems you rely on it entirely.

someguy

06-23-2006, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by echo_bravo
LMAO at all these people on this board wanting minimum wage raised. The only reason you guys want it higher is so you can support your DVD buying habits and your theater-going addiction.

Also, to the arguement that minimum wage should be raised so it helps out parents raising up to 5 kids....bwahahaha. Umm, they shouldnt of thought they could support 5 kids on minimum wage. It just isnt possible. Should of worn condoms.

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The Postmaster General

06-23-2006, 10:28 PM

Lynn7

06-23-2006, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by QUENTIN
You live in Massachusetts. It's a rich part of the country. Rich white kids work in your mall doing minimum wage jobs, yes. That is NOT the case of most minimum wage workers or across most of the country.

That's a great way to avoid the facts Lynn. Of course your personal experiences are more relevant and more accurate than national statistics. Do you understand what "anecdotal evidence" is and why it's considered irrelevant in real discussions, arguments, and debate? It seems you rely on it entirely.

Mass is not a rich area- we have rich and poor areas. I have also travelled to many places, especially in New England so my experience is not as limited as you seem to think. "Facts" and statistics can always be manipulated to slant to any particular point of view so when I hear an assertion I always test it against what I observe in real life. When I did this I was not thinking of the people who work in the "wealthier" sections of MAss since that would be irrelevant to the discussion. I live near a very poor high crime area and I do some shopping there. I do not see men who are supporting families working in minimum wage jobs- I see teenagers, elderly people and some middle aged women. That is some of my experience. I also have lived in the Baltimore/ DC area which is not known for its great wealth and it was the same there. And I visit Maine quite a bit and there are some really poor areas there. It is the same. People who are financially responsible to raise families don't work at convenience stores or fast food places. People who are supporting families look to work in factories etc. Le'ts give them credit for some intelligence.

electriclite

06-24-2006, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by Lynn7

I just have to go by my experience. I can honestly say that I dont' know anyone working a minimum wage job who has to support a family. It would be impossible on $8 an hour, let alone on 5.15. Most minimum wage workers ARE teenagers or women who are married to men who are working somewhere else. I dont' care where I go- whether it is where I live or if I go to New York City or downtown anycity. Teh people working in minimum wage jobs do not fit into the catergory that you would put them into. Those people work in factories, or are in service jobs such as cable men, telephone repair, carpet cleaners, window washers etc where they make a lot more that minimum wage. It is impossible to support a family on minimum wage. It always has been. So people will look for jobs that pay more. They do this all the time.

In arguments like these, I need to look around to see if what is being said by the arguers is founded on truth or it it is just being said to promote a certain argument. Even statistics can lie so I like to look around myself. Your experience may be different than mine but like I said before, I have seen many small businesses in my time and of course many small business minimum wage workers. People typically START in those jobs and work their way up. As you might imagine, I talk to a lot of people and I get into a lot of conversations with people who work where I shop. They often tell me about their lives, their kids their husbands or in most cases it is just kids who are going to high school or college.

Look, in view of the gas price increase, I think they should lift minimum some, but not so that people can raise families cause that would be traumatic on small businesses.

One more thing- I dont' think all teeenagers have a bad work ethic but a bad worker is paid the same as a good one with the minimum wage.

Late one night I caught an Oprah rerun where she devoted an entire episode to people living on $8-$10 an hour, some were married with no children and some were raising between 1-3 children.

http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200604/20060414/slide_20060414_284_201.jhtml

"Most people think low-wage workers are teenagers or high-school dropouts…but that's not the case, Beth says. "They're adults like the rest of us trying to take care of their families," Beth says. "Most have a high school degree—many have college degrees. It's every mom and dad in America.""

http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200604/20060414/slide_20060414_284_101.jhtml

Message board for The Minimum Wage episode (http://boards.oprah.com/WebX?13@@.f0e34cc!DYNID=OJ13QORPXT2BRLARAZ3BVQQ)

darchangel

06-24-2006, 06:40 AM

The Postmaster General

06-24-2006, 10:06 AM

And what about all the dead beat dads who up and leave an unskilled mother with a couple kids. It happens.

I'm not even going to touch on people with disabilities who are hurt enough to not be able to perform the jobs they were trained to do, but not hurt enough to qualify for assistance. That happens all the time.

Lynn7

06-24-2006, 04:05 PM

My son had a summer job at a local factory that paid him 8.75 an hour and if he worked overtime he got time and a half. He had to switch jobs so now he has a job that pays $9 an hour. Now, he is totally unskilled at this point in his life so how in the world is he able to go out and get these two jobs and people who are old enough to have kids etc have to work at a minimum wage job? I think I saw an Oprah episode like this one and it seems to me that Oprah was kind of amazed at the lack of drive that some of these people had. She kept asking why they didn't move or look for something better. I was thinking the same thing.

This is what that author said:
"Most people think low-wage workers are teenagers or high-school dropouts…but that's not the case, Beth says. "They're adults like the rest of us trying to take care of their families," Beth says. "Most have a high school degree—many have college degrees. It's every mom and dad in America." To say most is just not true but I guess it sells books, right?

The mother and daughter ended up in a shelter because the mom broke her wrist? I think there is more to this story. I'd like to see what kind of decisions the mom was making before she broke her wrist. and as far as the other family goes- they spend $250 a week on groceries! That is simply amazing.What the heck are they buying that costs so much? maybe a lot of high priced convenince foods?

Maybe what some of these people need more than anything is some good life advice. Some financial counseling etc. If the husband works as a lab person then maybe when he comes home the wife can go out and work a part time job. Maybe she could take in a kid or two for daycare since she is home anyway. There are always ways to strategize to make things better. Some people don't want to do anything different though. I know people who have handicapped kids and the government provides them with tons of assistance. There are simply tons of government programs to help out people who have legitimately fallen on hard times. And of course there are tons of churches around who are willing to help people who need it.

The Postmaster General

06-24-2006, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
There are simply tons of government programs to help out people who have legitimately fallen on hard times.

Haha.

Great solution!

If minimum wage doesn't cut it, you can always apply for welfare.

Ah - too bad the same people who are against minimum wage hikes are usually against government assistance.

Well, there's always prostitution and drug trafficking! But first we hafta get a Liberal back in office, to make sure the government will be real nice and soft on them.

And yes, Lynn - I'm sure you are implying that your son is either frail or illiterate and that's why it totally blew your mind that he got a job playing an astounding $18,720 a year while supporting a family, tending to housework, paying all his own bills, and that medical and dental bills were fully covered by that paycheck as well.

In related news, they are closing several Ford plants all across the country, but at least we don't have to worry about the people working there --- we all know it's just a Summer job for them.

And yes - financial counseling - Yeah, there's a winner, because we all know how people are just dying to give those services away for free, and how all families have the extra time to take off of work and meet with these saints.

http://regina-gift.com/rus/bubble/3-1.jpg

someguy

06-24-2006, 05:30 PM

echo_bravo

06-24-2006, 07:05 PM

Damn someguy! Your "guy lowering his face" completely owns my little "rolling eyes guy"(. Kudos :D

Darchangel, I know my response may have come across a bit "assholish" but what exactly do you do to earn minimum wage? I am not trying to be a dick, but most jobs that pay $5.15 an hour are easy as shit and a monkey could do them if the government allowed it...just sayin'.

electriclite

06-24-2006, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
The mother and daughter ended up in a shelter because the mom broke her wrist? I think there is more to this story. I'd like to see what kind of decisions the mom was making before she broke her wrist. and as far as the other family goes- they spend $250 a week on groceries! That is simply amazing.What the heck are they buying that costs so much? maybe a lot of high priced convenince foods?

If I broke my right wrist in November of this year I would not be able to begin work on my thesis and finish on time. Most likely I would have to take the year off and add another year of school. I have tuition insurance so whatever time I don't complete in school I can get refunded, but I have just put off another year of finding permanent full-time work.

If the mother was workng as a secretary, or working in any sort of manual job that would obviously require full use of your hands, this could obviously happen. Which obviously means she was still working for a minimum wage or slightly above that. which probably means that after the most of her bills were paid and groceries and car expenses she would have little to nothing left to put towards a savings to help buffer her and her daughter from losing their apartment.

As for the families' groceries, it is a family of SIX if you recall, and they did say that they also take advantage of food assistance from the government.

Personally, I do fault them for having SIX children. I can understand wanting to have a child, bUT A CHILD, is vastly different than having and raising SIX. I do recall that the mother went back to school to get her masters and earn more money, but she still hasn't found work and now she has school debt added to their usual debt. I don't think many masters required jobs have night hours.

Originally posted by Lynn7
Maybe what some of these people need more than anything is some good life advice. Some financial counseling etc. If the husband works as a lab person then maybe when he comes home the wife can go out and work a part time job. Maybe she could take in a kid or two for daycare since she is home anyway. There are always ways to strategize to make things better. Some people don't want to do anything different though. I know people who have handicapped kids and the government provides them with tons of assistance. There are simply tons of government programs to help out people who have legitimately fallen on hard times. And of course there are tons of churches around who are willing to help people who need it.

I think a radical idea should take place in the curriculum of highschools in thie country. I think its time that more practical and USEFUL classes be added as requirements, classes that teach children about money and the RESPONSIBLE usage of it now and when they are adults. REAL LIFE classes, not just Home Ec. or Shop class, but a class that you really will take with you once you're done school. A class that teaches you about when you qualify to file your taxes, what is a Roth IRA, investing in stocks, etc.

If money is so necessary to survive in this world why is it that most kids don't even BEGIN to learn about it till they're waist deep in serious money matters?

Most recently I had read an entertaining article by MP Dunleavey on MSN MoneyCentral that weighed the financail benefits of having children. Naturally there were none, but she ended her article basically stating that the rewards of having children are beyond those that money can measure.

The writer was IMMEDIATELY innundated with vicious emails from irrate parents condemning her article and saying she didn't deserve to have a child. most of these people ACTUALLY admitted to never sitting down and seeing how having a child would affect them financially!

Read for yourself:

Kids: Bad Investments, big returns (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Raisekids/P144966.asp)

The backlash (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P148280.asp)

The defense (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P148887.asp)

I do feel that these people will admit to not knowing what their options are besides to keep working and getting some help from friends and family and church. But like Bubba said, if they so desperately need to have their jobs, its not going to be easy for them to get PAID time off to go find a professional who will give them sound financial advice that they can afford.

But there are also people with college degrees who are losing skilled labor jobs in the technology field to outsourcing and not finding jobs that they went to school for and end up taking "filler" jobs just to have an income that doesn't come close to covering what they made in their more skilled, higher paying jobs.

These people stayed in school and got degrees because they didn't want to end up like most of the people living off of minimum wage or slightly higher, and now here they are doing just that! What the hell is that?!

darchangel

06-25-2006, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by echo_bravo
Damn someguy! Your "guy lowering his face" completely owns my little "rolling eyes guy"(. Kudos :D

Darchangel, I know my response may have come across a bit "assholish" but what exactly do you do to earn minimum wage? I am not trying to be a dick, but most jobs that pay $5.15 an hour are easy as shit and a monkey could do them if the government allowed it...just sayin'.

I work as a board operator/disc jocket at a radio station...and I can't even get forty hours a week because my bosses don't want to have to shell out the money to have an adequately staffed station.

I work with a guy who works more than forty hours a week and he's still considered 'part time' because they don't want to pay him benefits and full-time salary.

And to Lynn, yeah, I'm sure Oprah 'I Threw A Bitch Fit Because Hermes Wouldn't Let Me In After They Closed' Winfrey is incredibly sympathetic to people who are trying their best to make a decent living working a shitty minimum wage job or two.

~darchangel~

echo_bravo

06-25-2006, 03:27 PM

Well I am sorry to hear that darchangel. It sounds like you are in a really shitty position and your boss seems like a cheap bastard.

Vong

06-25-2006, 04:27 PM

Well I am sorry to hear that darchangel. It sounds like you are in a really shitty position and your boss seems like a cheap bastard.

That's capitalism for you...

electriclite

06-25-2006, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Vong
That's capitalism for you...

Capitalism is fine until people start misusing and abusing the system. You could see the same abuses apparent in the history of Communism as well.

Every system is great in theory, its people that fuck it all up in the end, cause selfishness and greed never seem to fail.

Lynn7

06-25-2006, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by someguy
This is why people get so frustrated with you, it's like you can't accept anything we tell you. You read the story about the mom who broke her wrist and became homeless because she didn't qualify for unemployment and you just come up with your own thought that there's more to the story. You just can't accept that a single mother trying to support her child broke her wrist for not making bad decisions? You're just making stuff up to deny what's in front of you.

People get frustrated with me because I question things? Yeesh! That is a huge thing to break a wrist and suddenly be homeless. I have learned over many years that there is always more to the story than what people originally tell you. And stories on Oprah's show are presented in a way to give evidence for the particular slant they are presenting on any given day so I'm sure they didn't want to dig too deep into this story. If I broke my wrist I might not be able to write for a while or type or whatever, but I'm sure I could go find something else for the time being so I did not become homeless.

It just comes across that the can-do spirit of Amercians is now, I can't do anything, I can't figure anything out, life is so hard etc etc. It's just hard to get a lot of sympathy up for this attitude. We live in the best country in the world. There are many countires with no homeless shelters or soup kitchens where people really DO starve to death. And there are some real hard luck stories in America- people do fall on hard times. I have expereinced in personally as a girl when my Dad refused to go bankrupt because he didn't want to stiff the people he had taken money from. We were hounded by bill collectors for years and it looked kind of ifffy on keeping the house. I really admired my parents for brazening it through those hard times. There are no guarantees in life. Life can be hard and you have to do your best to strategize your way out of it. Our country is founded on these ideals. But in these days everyone is growing up soft and people have no inner strength and tend to fall apart. It's sad, really.

But you guys have to ask yourselves- what are you doing to help people who fall on hard times? Do you give money to people who are not making ends meet? Do you rake or shovel for the elderly people in your neighborhood? Do you give money to the foodbanks or dedicate your weekends to working for charity. Cause talk is cheap. My church does all these things and most of the churches I know bend over backwards to help people who have fallen on hard times. They give money to people who have trouble making ends meet. They shovel, rake, cook food for shelters and on and on. and they also have people who can advise them on making better choices. Many people who end up in bad circumstances have made some bad choices in life. We all do.

electriclite

06-25-2006, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
If I broke my wrist I might not be able to write for a while or type or whatever, but I'm sure I could go find something else for the time being so I did not become homeless.

Like what? Name me a temporary job that will hire you where you don't need to use your hands and that will pay you enough to sustain yourself till your hand gets better AND find a new job where you can use your hands?

On top of that, if you are looking for jobs that the disabled do, won't they basically look you over because all you have is a broken wrist and you're just there till things improve for you.

I'm a healthy, able bodied human being and it takes me months to find new jobs that pay at least $8 an hour.

Originally posted by Lynn7
It just comes across that the can-do spirit of Amercians is now, I can't do anything, I can't figure anything out, life is so hard etc etc. It's just hard to get a lot of sympathy up for this attitude. We live in the best country in the world. There are many countires with no homeless shelters or soup kitchens where people really DO starve to death. And there are some real hard luck stories in America- people do fall on hard times. I have expereinced in personally as a girl when my Dad refused to go bankrupt because he didn't want to stiff the people he had taken money from. We were hounded by bill collectors for years and it looked kind of ifffy on keeping the house. I really admired my parents for brazening it through those hard times. There are no guarantees in life. Life can be hard and you have to do your best to strategize your way out of it. Our country is founded on these ideals. But in these days everyone is growing up soft and people have no inner strength and tend to fall apart. It's sad, really.

But you guys have to ask yourselves- what are you doing to help people who fall on hard times? Do you give money to people who are not making ends meet? Do you rake or shovel for the elderly people in your neighborhood? Do you give money to the foodbanks or dedicate your weekends to working for charity. Cause talk is cheap. My church does all these things and most of the churches I know bend over backwards to help people who have fallen on hard times. They give money to people who have trouble making ends meet. They shovel, rake, cook food for shelters and on and on. and they also have people who can advise them on making better choices. Many people who end up in bad circumstances have made some bad choices in life. We all do.

Yeah, but these people don't want a handout, they don't want to be dependent on others. I mean sure a little help here and there when things are inordinantly bad. But we're talking about people who believe that if they work hard they should be able to take care of themselves and these days it ain't like the old days when if you did work you could take care of yourself. Now its not enough that you have a job or two jobs even, you've got to be craftier and if you aren't you get left behind and disappear. Sounds Darwinian, which I know you don't subscibe to. If you're young enough and not burdened with the responsibilites of a family, you have a better chance of getting by. But what about older people, who don't adapt to the changes of the economy as well as young people. And we're not talking about elderly people who are disabled, but those that are still healthy and mobile and want to provide for themselves.

These people are not lazy, they want to work and know that if they do they can live in the black and not continually in the red.

Lynn7

06-25-2006, 11:09 PM

It's always hard when these discussions are based on generalities. There are a lot of jobs out there for people who have one hand. If we are talking minimum wage jobs you can start by being a cashier. There are always jobs open as cashiers in conveneince stores, for one. If i broke my wrist and couldn't do my job I would ask if I could answer phones or do something else for a while, maybe at alower rate of pay. I know you can make money working on phone banks where you earn a commission by selling. Someone I know runs a business where the people on the phones can make really good money. How about babysitting or something. People are always hungry for baby sitting. This woman's daughter seemed like she was old enough to be a big help to her.The important thing is to get out there and do something. Maybe I would see if someone could take me in for a while, if the person has no family or no friends then I would visit a church.

Instead of generalities or unknown people here is an actual email I recieved from my church. I am going to block out the names and lcations but the person who is the recipient of this project lives about 10 states from where I live:

We have been made aware of a need for XXXXX XXXXX and her family. This is the situation: XXXXX's sister YYYY died at age 43. Her children, AAAAA (a daughter) and BBBB (a son), were 13 and 16 years old at the time. XXXXX became the mother figure in their lives, nurturing them through high school and college, and now into young adulthood. AAAA and BBBB moved to an apartment in (name of city and state). a few years ago. As many of you know, AAAA became ill very suddenly and died 8 days later. She was 27 years old. BBBBB cannot afford to live in the apartment alone and is looking for another living situation. In the mean time, there is a financial burden on him. If you would like to help BBBBB monetarily, you may use the blue envelopes in the pew and make checks payable to (the church). Be sure to mark the envelope "BBBBB" (the boy's name). If you would like to give a gift certificate, feel free to do so. You can go on-line to see what stores are in the (the name of the city)area (i.e. Wal-Mart tends to have a lot of general merchandise a person might need). If possible, please have donations in the office by June 21st.

As you can imagine, XXXX is hurting deeply. It would be a great encouragement to her if we can help BBBB. She does not know we are doing this.

The most important thing you can do is pray. AAAA's family and friends are all struggling with grief and shock. She was a sweet, vibrant young lady and was loved by everyone who knew her. The cause of her death is still a mystery. The results of the autopsy will take about 3 months.

_________________________________________________

This is an actual hard case but it becomes uplifting when people take the time to reach out and help on a personal level rather than just talk about the problem with wages today.

The Postmaster General

06-26-2006, 02:02 PM

I've worked with people that have disabilities for close to 10 years now. Some actually do benefit from finding work and getting off government assistance, but others seem to be better off just being on assistance.

You have a paranoid schizophrenic, and it doesn't make sense for them to deal with the stress of working a regular job to make the same ends as they would not working. Basically they can get paid no more for adding a new stress to their life.

See, a big thing that's being ignored is that not all forms of disability equate with breaking a wrist. Just like I wouldn't apply the same generalization to a person with a physical disability as I would with a severe mental health problem, it would benefit society for others to do the same.

Yes, Lynn is correct that there always could be something more to the story. Unfortunately, it seems that most of the 'something mores' are thing she doesn't relate to:

There are always jobs open as cashiers in conveneince stores, for one

Those are low-paying jobs, and/or jobs that are generally only available for late-night or overnight shifts.

I know you can make money working on phone banks where you earn a commission by selling.

Selling a product is a skill that a very small portion of the population possesses. As someone who's worked as a commission-based telemarketer, I've seen people get burned in this profession. The jobs generally pay based on commission, and like I said - not very many people are good at salesmanship.

How about babysitting or something.

This is a job that teenagers and college kids get to earn money to see movies. Unless you work with an agency, chances are you'll make nominal pay watching other people's kids -- assuming you even live in an area where the job is in demand. Most babysitters are referred by a former sitter - it's all very closely knit.

What parent would hurriedly hand their kid over to some stranger who's looking for temporary work?

Maybe I would see if someone could take me in for a while, if the person has no family or no friends then I would visit a church.

It always comes back to your beliefs being good enough for the nation. You see, Knows someone who runs a telemarketing company, so it makes perfect sense that there a jobs in telemarketing available - regardless of if she's ever done the work herself. Has been around a tight-knit community of some sort, so finding reliable babysitters has never been a major concern - so it makes sense that people need babysitters and would gladly hand their kid over to a stranger.

And of course - "if I had no family or friends" -- Yeah, I can sit here all day trying to say what I would do "if I had a time machine and a million dollars" -- but the fact of the matter is that I've never been in that situation, so it's easy to say what I'd do.

See, the thing is that churches want people to come to them for help. Even outreach programs hardly go out and look for problems. It's pretty easy to sit back and say, "Oh, our church helped this member and this member out" and snub your nose to anyone who doesn't benefit from the help you offer.

It would be like me saying the homeless problem with the mentally ill would be solved if those lazy people would just seek out advocacy services. Yeah, it's true - but it's also a one-sided truth.

Lynn7

06-26-2006, 02:40 PM

As you well know I worked in the mental health field for many years and I would never equate schizophrenia with someone breaking a wrist. I have said many times that I am in favor of supporting the people who really need it with government money. I am hugely in favor of my tax money going to these people. But, we are not talking about that here. We are talking about raising the minimum wage.

You have shot down every idea I had about what a person could do if she got kicked out of her house cause she broke her wrist. What is your solution? I am just not the type of person who gives up so easily and I am depressed at the 'whoa is me attitude' that seems to pervade our country htese days. If this kind of thinking persists, I see grave days ahead and raising the minimum wage will just not help.Why do you think the factories are leaving the country in droves? It is because some of the factories were forced to pay salaries of 20-$40 an hour (labor unions) for unskilled work (especially car factories). And if we raise minimum wage too high then who will want to start a small business? There just won't be any incntive to take on the risk. It's just too depressing. We need to teach our kids how to strategize and to never give up.

The Postmaster General

06-26-2006, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
As you well know I worked in the mental health field for many years and I would never equate schizophrenia with someone breaking a wrist. I have said many times that I am in favor of supporting the people who really need it with government money. I am hugely in favor of my tax money going to these people. But, we are not talking about that here. We are talking about raising the minimum wage.

The thing is, when you say "there is more to the story" you are saying "there is more to the story, when it is only things that support my points."

If you are going to say "there is more to the story" you exactly have to consider things like severe and persistent mental illnesses.

You have shot down every idea I had about what a person could do if she got kicked out of her house cause she broke her wrist. What is your solution? I am just not the type of person who gives up so easily and I am depressed at the 'whoa is me attitude' that seems to pervade our country htese days.

It's not about me shooting down ideas, it's about me making the same point you made - there is always more to the story. I'm only giving you the side of the story you left out, or didn't consider.

See that's what I'm talking about. You are equating depression with a "woe is me" attitude, when having worked in mental health, you know that there really is severe depression - chemical imbalances that totally break down your body. This is medical fact. You are only considering people who may abuse or take advantage of mental diagnosis - because it coincides with your point.

Sometimes, people live their life productively with depression, schizophrenia, or any number of disorders and there are things called 'triggers' that totally set them off and agitate symptoms that have been unnoticed for even decades. Age plays a huge part in it as well, which is why you'll see doctors playing chemical roulette with 80 year old men who just lost their spouse.

Why do you think the factories are leaving the country in droves? It is because some of the factories were forced to pay salaries of 20-$40 an hour (labor unions) for unskilled work (especially car factories).

Um. Because companies are opening factories overseas, where they can skirt American law.

And if we raise minimum wage too high then who will want to start a small business? There just won't be any incntive to take on the risk. It's just too depressing. We need to teach our kids how to strategize and to never give up.

People said the same thing about FMLA and Civil Rights Act - that it would be a burden on small businesses. There was compromise. Again, more to the story than is being let on.

Lynn7

06-26-2006, 04:52 PM

If you are saying that the woman might have a history of mental illness and that when she broke her wrist it sent her into a dive then I am fine with that. I have a hard time beleiving that a simple broken wrist can be the difference between having a home and not having one. And anyway, in this case we do have a system in place for people who have fallen on hard times. Homeless shelters and soup kitchens are a wonderful thing. I am proud that we have them here in this country. I am proud that our hospitals offer free beds to poor people and on and on.But we have to be careful not to let our sympathy stop there- we need to have sympathy for the small business owners who can also lose it all. Minimum wage earners can and do move around from job to job and hopefully to jobs that pay more, but a small business owner is stuck with all of his or her money in the investment, responsible for paying taxes and workers comp etc and many hidden expenses, and they often have a limited window for a profit. We need to be careful to take these people's situations into consideration too.