Episode II....

[Downfall]

I'm sorry but I just can't take all this Episode II crap I think it sucks I hate every second of it.


I just don't feel the force!

[Reigh Kaufman]

Then you are a non-believer.

AOTC is second only to Empire...I'll argue this point with anyone.

P.S. Welcome to the boards.

[docholiday_13]

I agree this movie was lame. It just doesnt feel Star Wars to me. The best parts : Kenobi v.s Jango Fett and Natalie Portman in that white bodysuit........wait, this movie ruled!

[Sylvie]

Both of the new Star Wars movies have a sluggish pace and dull script compared to the original three. But Attack of the Clones felt more like Star Wars than Phantom Menace, because of the presense of Yoda, R2 and C3PO. I also felt more convinced that Ewan MacGregor really was young Obi Wan in the 2nd movie. And Clones was the most impressive movie to look at that I have ever seen-that's why I'm going back to see it again before it leaves the theaters-not because of the characters, story or script.

[ColinM]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Downfall:
I'm sorry but I just can't take all this Episode II crap I think it sucks I hate every second of it.</font>

If you can come up with better reasons for disliking it and actually explain them, then I'd love to respond. But you didn't even give one reason here for why Episode II is bad...

[MoNsTeR]

maybe it killed his dog.

//out.

[SIREN30]

I disagree entirely. As an avid Star Wars fan I think this movie was a beautiful link between the new (old) films and the old (new). It made me more attatched to the standard characters like Obi Wan and Darth Vader and also explained the regression in technology that obviously occurred when the Empire took over. I loved watching Yoda fight and the love story was simple and silly. It rivals EMPIRE STRIKES BACK as my favorite. It also made me respect THE PHANTOM MENACE a little more since, frankly, I was dissapointed by it. But, I liked the fact that Lucas made Jar Jar a key figure in the inevitable emergence of the Empire and Hayden Christensen is filled w/ proper angst.

[This message has been edited by SIREN30 (edited 08-06-2002).]

[Dumb-Fokker-**]

Reigh, if you'd like to try your hand at this, than why dont we try our hands? Episode II is a poor film. Films people generally dont like (on these boards) have alot of the same characteristics as those found in this film - bad acting, bad dialouge, bad pacing, sloppy editing in both film and sound, and worst of all - Jar-Jar Binks. It has been explained to me over a thousand times: "Its a kid movie." "Well the OT didnt have Oscar-calibur dialouge wither." "It supposed to be fun." Yeah, so are alot of other movies that everyone thinks suck - minus the name, Star Wars. So, if you can refute everything bad up there, ill more than play along at proving you wrong, because if theres one thing im good at, when it comes to movies, its arguing about them.

[Downfall]

I disagree entirely as an action fan!

Before I saw Epiodes II I read a ton of reviews and most of them said non-stop action that blows you away!

How about non-stop talking about bull shit


It's lame

The End!

[Reigh Kaufman]

Brilliant argument Downfall! Witty, verbose, concise - everything you want from an informed critic! Dorothy Parker, come in your time is up.

Why don't you reason out your grievances first, then argue your case when you have one. I'm not going to say that AOTC is the best movie ever, but I can see good movie-making (CGI or not)whether it's an Independent no-budget or a Hollywood blockbuster. Take deep breaths and get back to us when 'it's lame' expands into expound. Otherwise, who cares what you think of the film...?

[Reigh Kaufman]

Ooooooh, I just noticed that Dumb-Fokker has challenged me to a pissing contest over whether AOTC is good (yes) or bad (no). who thinks I should get into this with him/ anyone? Come on, a show of hands!

RSVP, Reigh

[mattjk_17]

*Raises hand* Go on Reigh!!

Ahh, by the way, I thought it was good, better than the shitfest known as Episode I. My third fave SW movie, well, joint third with A New Hope.

[Horror whore]

Go on Reigh, have your little argument, as long as it's constructive...

As for this thread, I'm still curious about how it has survived in this forum for this long...

[Grebdron]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by MoNsTeR:
maybe it killed his dog.

</font>

Thanks, MoNsTeR!! I haven't bust up laughing at a post in a while. I don't know why, but that is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/lach.gif

[Grebdron]

Go get 'em, Reigh!! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/person/director.gif I for one stand on neither side, because I haven't even seen AOTC. Just couldn't bring myself to check it out, because I was so disappointed in Episode 1.

[Dumb-Fokker-**]

What I was asking for could hardly be contended as a "pissing contest". And, just to point this out, you were the one that welcomed the challenge:

"AOTC is second only to Empire...I'll argue this point with anyone."

So, if you are willing to argue this point with anyone, than lets piss away.

All I want are VALID (i.e. - none of this, "Well, it is SW so it kicks ass." and "He has been training to be a Jedi his whole life, he doesnt know how to speak to girls." nonsense.)

So, if you counted enough "internet hands" to satisfy your need to have a reason for justifying this film, than lets get to it. And remember, valid points.

[Reigh Kaufman]

Two people have voted...that's plenty.

Okay...

*cracks knuckles, stretches muscles*

...here we go!

First of all, let's just take a moment to consider the original trilogy. Done that? Good. Now, as someone who grew up on the mythology of Star Wars, I can be just as precious as the 'fanatics' when defending the films to those who simply 'don't get it'. But, and be honest, when we look back at the original trilogy, are we seeing the movies as they are now - that is, in an honest light, with all of their flaws -or are we simply seeing them through the golden warm memories that accompany them? It's a hard thing to separate...sure it is

For example, how many of you, of a certain age, remember loving films like Short Circuit, Cobra, Lucas, License to Drive, D*A*R*Y*L, Time Bandits, War Games, House, The Gate, Ghoulies, Flight of the Navigator?

Anyone?

Yeah, I used to love them too when I was a kid.

How many of you have seen them lately?

Pretty shit, huh?

But will you admit it?

No, because they are a part of your past that you like to cherish. And that's fine. And that's Star Wars fans.

When Phantom Menace was released, I, like the rest of the world, had my tickets booked months in advance. It was exciting because it was a part of my childhood that could be revitalised. I was so excited I even offered to take my nephew along with his new Darth Maul mask and let him sit on my knee throughout the film if he promised to be quiet.

Sweet.

Anyway, I remember the anticipation and the nervous build-up as the theatre played John Williams new score through the tannoy speakers...Which was the first sign that something was wrong. Nobody knew the tunes yet (except Duel of the Fates, possibly. The second clue that something was not right happened the moment the drapes opened and the yellow Star Wars logo came into view - somebody roared from the back 'COME ON THE WARS!'. And it was a male voice. In his late-twenties and clearly drunk. Actually, most of the auditorium was filled with drunken 25-30 year-old men...

Strange for a U - certificate.

Afterwards the disappointment from the men (and disgruntled girlfriends) was palpable as we made our way out. You could actually FEEL the resentment from the crowd. Except for my nephew, Reigh, and the other kids ewhonattended. Theye loved it. Every damn second of it. I asked Reigh who his favourite character and he replied, of course, Jar Jar Binks. He also loved the pod-race and all the fighting. Would you go see it again? Yeah, he said, he definitely would, and has, I believe, now watched it 20 or 30 times - just like we used to do.

So, what did I think of the film? I thought it was precisely the film it HAD to be in order to justify a part II/III. Incidents and intrigue, too much expounding and foreshadowing, terrible dialogue and not enough Darth Maul (my only real gripe at the time). Did I feel bitter? No. Does Lucas owe me anything as a person? No. Do I have to watch it if I don't want to? No. And do people realise that Jar Jar binks is probably just as annoying to us as C3PO was to our parents? Again, no. I am, I admit, slightly resentful that the movie wasn't everything THOSE MEN in the theatre wanted it to be...they ruined it for everyone else and then bitched about it until the movie was stomped into the ground. Now nobody watches Phantom Menace without getting annoyed at all ther bits highlighted by the truculent, so-called fans...

Flash-forward to AOTC.

The expectation is not nearly as palpable for this movie even though we've all had to endure whiny complaints about the title, plot-line (a love-story? Ugh), casting and director. Now, granted for the second film, after A New Hope, Lucas handed over the reins to Kirschner to direct Empire. And it WAS a superior movie. But Star Wars is Lucas's creation, so the decision to maintain his status as a director is not ours to question. Understand this, if there was no Lucas there would be no Star Wars...

Back to the topic.

AOTC is released worldwide and we all, somewhat reluctantly in some cases, drag ourselves back to the picture house to see what happens next. What we get is the basis of the answers to the questions we have speculated over since Jedi closed the original trilogy. Who is Darth Vader? What are the Clones? What happened to the Jedi's? Where doess Boba Fett come from? The list is endless. Added to this, though, is the return to a simpler, more concise plot (simpler compared to Phantom Menace)that takes our heroes into the Star Wars that we know and understand - the Mos Eisley like bar-scenes being a particular favourite because we know how Obi Wan will grow to become a brilliant Jedi. It's also in these scenes that he showcases his subtle humour (as well as starting to look like Ben, which he didn't in Episode I) and we can see the formative template Lucas provided for us. Just as he did with the droids. Just as he did with young Anakin. It's all coming together. You see, everything is eventual and it's US, not Lucas, who are just beginning to catch up...

As for other complaints I have heard...SFX (have you seen Spiderman and LOTR, they are ropey as hell in some places and yet everyone justifies it somehow), dialogue (listen to the speeches in Star Wars - fuck, they can be awful), the action (how much more do you want?), the villains (you'll see in Episode III) and the lack of your favourite characters that populated the originsl universe (well, there's Yoda, Jabba, C3-PO, R2D2, the Emperor, Aunt Beruth, Uncle Owen, Ben etc. And Boba Fett and Darth Vader are on the way)...

The AOTC film has put all these aspects into place, leading us into a grand finale that will wrap up our childhood treasures perfectly...Why complain? You wanted the answers, you got the answers...

Now, let's hear what you have to say on the negative side...

P.S. sorry for any typos and stuff. Very tired at the moment.

[Terrell]

Well, I'm new here, but I don't think the originals were great simply because I was a child. I love them just as much, if not more today than I did as a child. I consider Star Wars and Empire truly great films. Jedi is a very, very good film in my opinion. TPM was a decent flick at best, with some problems. But I loved AOTC and thought it was a very good film as well.

Just my opinion. I'm glad I enjoyed them, because I wouldn't want to be one of the people who couldn't enjoy them.

I'll personally be glad when the films are completed, so people can whine about something else. No offense intended.

[This message has been edited by Terrell (edited 08-07-2002).]

[AnnoyingQuestionAsker]

Reigh,

Very compelling argument. I agree wholeheartedly. You summed up what us true fans really think. Thanks

[SIREN30]

ONCE AGAIN I have to disagree. I've been a 'true fan' since I was a babe and I think it's my favorite. My reasons are stated above.

[Terrell]

I do have to agree. Great post Reigh.

[Linus*likes*noise]

Great Post Reigh. I totally aggree and I believe AOTC to be one of the better Star wars films.

I like Jedi the best personally then empire(ducks thrown computer moniter) then Attack, it had the feel of a good star wars film and it is bringing the six-ology to a brilliant close. I can't wait ot watch all of the films back to back to back to back to back to back, it will be fun times!!

Oh yeah, on more fan of the Phantom Menace here. I love it as well!

(sticks toungue out at non believers)

Just think of it this way:

Original Trilogy - Sunrise

Prequel Trilogy - Sunset

Can you see it? I sure can, maby I am crazy but It makes so much sense.

Lata duders

[[SD] Bob Plisskin]

Right, I'm going to attempt to take Reigh on, somebody get a chisselling on my tombstone.

Why Attack of The Clones Sucked
The View of Andrew O'Brien

I was not as dissappointed as most by The Phantom Menace, I was not a big fan of the original at the time (I have gained some respect in the past few years) and frankly don't know why I bought a ticket, everybody was saying it sucked but being the individual that I am I decided to make up my own mind (hey if it became big in 30 years I could say I was There). TPM was obviously aimed at the kids, you could tell from the cutesy bright colours, yellows and greens and the distinct lines betweeb character types, there was good and bad but no middle ground. Anywho I'm not here to talk about TPM.

So with my new gained respect for the original series after endless repeats on sky movies I decided I was looking forward to AOTC, this was afterall advertised as the fall of the jedi, what could be better than a big rumble between 500 jedis and something that could kick 500 jedi's arses? Well apparantly Lucas thought a love story and a bit of a detective caper. And not very good ones at that. The love aspect was laughable, too long was spent on showing the obvious feelings they had for each other and then there was the glossed over fact that they coudn't be with each other, why not? I still don't understand that she's a senate woopedeedoo! Senates can't marry? Never read that in no Star Wars manual. And then just when you thought Lucas was going to play with theirs and our emotions by having them so attracted to each other but unable to fullfill this love he lets them get off with each other, OK let them but not then, and not in your stereotypical green pastures rolling in the grass. There was no gradual conversion just a quick unexplained change of heart. And now onto the joke that was a detective story, now I wasn't around for the big era of the sleep easy chicago PI film era but I watched enough modern crime films to know that the cop has to make the link the same time as the viewer for it to be fun to watch. Watching Obi-Wan piece together the puzzle was like watching two guys speaking in chinese with the fast forward button on:

ah a bounty hunter, some sort of poisen, I'll go here, ah clone Army, it belongs to some jedi guy, right, I'll go here, aha a bounty hunter.

I mean where was the audience participation? It was no fun at all to watch, yes it was probably needed for the story but there were no clues, everything was assumed. So this goes on and I'm watching the film and I realise I came to see a big Jedi fight it's an hour and a half into the movie and I haven't seen a big Jedi fight! I demand my big Jedi fight. So Lucas strings together some lame ass excuse to get the Jedis all in one place, and I'm munching on my popcorn waiting for some serious action, and what do I get? The same bits of action over and over again, Jedi runs forward reflects laser gets killed, Jedi runs forward reflects laser gets killed repeat until bored. Oh, was that it? And why exactly did the battle end? Another point while I'm here aswell, this is meant to be a place where everyone is more technologically advanced than us right? So nobody has had the idea to bring along a device to emit an Electro Magnet Pulse? In fact nobody brought along an electro-magnet? Anyway, I took solace in the fact that I would get to see not only Anakin fight with two lightsabers but also Yoda kicking Dooku's arse. So Anakin ends up in a room with Dooku somehow and he get's his two light sabers and he loses them straight away! I felt cheated, but then Yoda came along and I was about to cream my pants, but even this action sequence was poor, I couldn't see yoda, his movements made no sense, he did no damage and the bad guy got away. Then we have a marriage aaaawww aint that cute, so why exactly couldn't they be together? It doesn't seem if anybody is complaining!

I seriously hope that Episode 3 is going to be worth this two film plot setting, because accept it, TPM and AOTC were simply there to set the scene for the third film.

&lt;OB&gt;

[This message has been edited by [SD] Bob Plisskin (edited 08-07-2002).]

[Terrell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">TPM and AOTC were simply there to set the scene for the third film.</font>

Well, it's certainly the case that Episode III has always been the most anticipated film, simply because of what takes place. I mean think about it. It makes sense. To put it in vulgar terms, Episode III is the money shot.

As for AOTC, I thought it was very good, and disagree with your opinions Bob. But we all have our opinions, and that's what makes the world go round.

[Dumb-Fokker-**]

Well, Reigh, I guess that argument could be considered well-rounded, and,......well, no, no it could not. Your entire argument did not refute one thing that I mentioned - all it did was use the same excuse I hear from everyone else I have this argument with - "did the Original Trilogy have good dialouge? fuck no! than why should this prequal trilogy?" - and the like.

First, and foremost, I did not ask the question: explain why you like these films. I asked if you could refute my argument that these are not good, well thought out films. Explaining bad dialouge, bad special-effects, bad performances, and stupid, contrived bridges between the OT and the PT, is NOT ahcieved by having fond memories of the film.

As for your comment on Spiderman, and FotR special-effects - I can only name a few bad effects from either of those films (and as someone who does alot of work for their Robotics Teams animation, I think I am slighty qualified to have a rather weighted opinion) but in AotC, I can name many: Dex, Geonosians, the arena creatures (they werent too bad), ect.

Dialouge, acting, pacing, editing, sound editing - I wont even go into those until I can have this argument with someone that will actually address the problems of the film (or lack thereof).

[The Heart Collector]

why do we like these films? because they are GOOD films, for fuck's sake. they're popcorn films, sure, but they're better than most of the popcorn films that get released each year. the acting and dialogue is clunky here and there, but no biggie. LOTR had some clunky dialogue and acting too, didn't bother me either, didn't seem to bother you. so what if anakin sounds a little clunky when hitting on padme? that's the whole point. not everyone's a romantic hero, always saying everything in a perfectly seductive tone. I'm 16. I saw the first SW movies at 11, I think. i liked them. didn't consider them my favorite movies or anything. they're just movies. and I happen to like them. why? because they tell an entertaining story, have great visuals, appealing characters, excellent music, and tense sequences. it's not nostalgia, it's not "it's a kid's movie". I just like them. and i'll be damned if I'm going to go and watch a summer movie with a little notebook and go "oh, they coulda used an electro magnetic pulse here. minus one star. oh, bad line of dialogue. minus one star". These aren't movies made for oscar-winning acting. but is the acting THAT BAD? No. Most of the times, the clunky acting complements the character.


you mention dialogue flaws. yeah, there's a few. i'll admit it. maybe 5 or 7 lines that I felt weren't very good. the acting was a bit off sometimes. i'll admit it. kinda distracting in those moments. but this in NO WAY made the movie become bad. Editing? nope. at least not in this happy champ's opinion. At no time did I feel the movie started to lag, except perhaps 10 minutes before the main fight, but this I felt the 2nd time I saw the movie, when I was dying to see that scene again. and you also mention sound editing, to which I say, WHAT THE FUCK? the sound was great from what I can remember, and anyway, who analyzes the freaking sound editing in a movie?


attack of the clones - 8/10. most entertaining movie of the year.

[El Bracamonti]

for the person who started this post, i have only one word for you. YODA! thats it. oh ya... YODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Terrell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">bad special-effects</font>

Sorry, but that statement is funny, and dead wrong. Technically, the effects in AOTC are better than your LOTR effects, not to mention far more difficult. The sheer amount of work that one effectscompany had to do made their work even more amazing. And I can name a number of areas where the effects in LOTR aren't up to the standards of ILM. But they are good for the most part.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I can only name a few bad effects from either of those films (and as someone who does alot of work for their Robotics Teams animation, I think I am slighty qualified to have a rather weighted opinion) but in AotC</font>

No, obviously you're not if you make those statements. Spider-Man was filled with poorly done effects, but they passed for the most part because they were in a comic book film. LOTR had a number of poorly composited shots, and the cave troll wasn't all that convincing either. The opening scene, there was little detail in the mass of soldiers, mostly looking like black dots moving across the screen. And the orcs crawling out of the ground and out of the ceiling was not too great either. But pretty much everything else is good.

As for AOTC, the shot of Anakin riding the shaak was poor, and maybe one shot of Lee's face mapped to the stunt double's face looked off, but that was about it. Yoda was phenomenal, especially the cloth simulation they developed. Not to mention Dex, Geonosians, the Kaminoans, the clone troopers, etc. Fantastic stuff. You'll never get me to believe you are an expert in that industry if you're of the opinion Spider-Man and LOTR had better effects than Star Wars. You may not like the amount of CGI Lucas used, but there was no way on God's green earth there was anything poor about those effects.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">bad performances, and stupid</font>

Dead wrong again. Ewan, Lee, McDiarmid were all fantastic. Christensen gave the perfect performance of a tortured character not in control of his feelings. Natalie was solid too. Sam Jackson was, well, Sam Jackson. He's like that in every film.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">sound editing</font>

All I can say here is you're really, really reaching in your zest to tear this film down. The sound editing in Star Wars films have always been first rate, and original. There's no difference here. The sound editing is among the best I've heard. Look, you can criticize all you want. That's your perogative. But when you start saying bad effects and bad sound editing, you're really grasping at straws.

But quite frankly I don't care enough to argue throughout the thread. I'll just advise you to skip the films. Don't go watch them. Don't buy the DVDs. Don't go see Episode III. Go spend your money on something else. That'll solve your problems if you don't like them.



[This message has been edited by Terrell (edited 08-08-2002).]

[The Handeman]

Ok this is where the random guy who knows a lot about movies http://www.joblo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif comes in and gives his 2 cents and leaves

I AM THAT GUY!

here is what i think

1. Give AOTC 5/10
2. A love story even though it is part of the storyline should not have been elaborated to such an extent that it was expressed in AOTC
3.Portman looks HOT in that white suit is it just me or did she look like a power ranger?
4. After the completion of the first trilogy SW fans were still craving for a magnificent Light Saber battle. They received a mediocre setback in Phantom Menace, Here they get Yoda who during ROTJ and Phantom Menace displays his knowledge of the force and his great looks http://www.joblo.com/ubb/wink.gif Now i know that even though this movie was the pits that when you saw Yoda walk through that doorway you knew that the next 2 minutes were going actually be very entertaining.
5. With all due respect to the cast of this film the actor who played Anakin SUCKED! no doubt about it he was absolutely terrible and a disgrace to the cast of SW. Also we could say Jar Jar but thats just a waste of time
6. The movie only had 3 GOOD ENTERTAINING SCENES
a)The chase scene during the beginning of the film "you are going to be the death of me"
b)The Jango Fett escape scene
c) THE ULTIMATE YODA LIGHTSABER SCENE! everyone in the theater stood up and cheered when he came through the doorway and started whoopin ass

Well theres my 2 cents or lets just my nickel
i know everyone will argue, let their opinions be known and altogether disagree and spit on my opinions I SAY BRING IT!

This is the Handeman signing off

[JoBlo]

Moving to our GENERAL MOVIE TALK forum --&gt;