Is Patriotism important?

[Lynn7]

This is from the Telegraph.co.uk Maines' comment is about 9-10 paragraghs down.

How the Chicks survived their scrap with Bush
(Filed: 15/06/2006)



Adam Sweeting assesses how the Dixie Chicks have weathered a political storm

Will it be the salmon teriyaki with organic greens, or asparagus tempura and tuna sashimi? As the waiter hovers with pencil poised, the Dixie Chicks debate the menu with the practised air of professional restaurant critics. The Chicks have traditionally been branded a country band, but clearly it's some time since their diet consisted of ribs, tacos and pancakes.


Sisters Emily Robison and Martie Maguire project a polished Fifth Avenue elegance, and vocalist Natalie Maines is a vision of sculpted cheekbones and smoky eye-shadow.

With their origins as bouffant-haired ingénues playing bluegrass music long forgotten, the Chicks are in Miami to attend a Sony BMG conference, where their new album, Taking the Long Way, is high on the corporate agenda. It's their first release since the group weathered the storm of outrage triggered by Maines's expression of shame that President Bush was from her home state of Texas. Although they've sold 30 million albums, the company was concerned about their commercial future.

When Maines made her comment on March 10 2003, 10 days before Operation Iraqi Freedom unleashed "shock and awe" over Baghdad, the Dixie Chicks were probably the biggest act in country music. Yet within days, their music vanished from the charts and the airwaves, apoplectic rednecks crushed piles of their CDs with tractors, and the FBI was feverishly monitoring death threats against the trio. It was the most heinous pop-star outrage since Ozzy Osbourne urinated on the Alamo.

"The reaction was as if Natalie had said 'Death to the President' or something," says violinist and vocalist Maguire.

"It was the bullying and the scare factor," shudders banjo and guitar player Robison. "It was like the McCarthy days, and it was almost like the country was unrecognisable."

The level of debate can be gauged from the way Maines was compared to "Hanoi Jane" Fonda, who was photographed manning a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun at the height of the Vietnam war.

The Chicks can't hide their disgust at the lack of support they received from other country performers. "A lot of artists cashed in on being against what we said or what we stood for because that was promoting their career, which was a horrible thing to do," says Robison.
__________________________________________________ ____

"A lot of pandering started going on, and you'd see soldiers and the American flag in every video. It became a sickening display of ultra-patriotism."

"The entire country may disagree with me, but I don't understand the necessity for patriotism," Maines resumes, through gritted teeth. "Why do you have to be a patriot? About what? This land is our land? Why? You can like where you live and like your life, but as for loving the whole country… I don't see why people care about patriotism."
__________________________________________________ ______

There can be no rational explanation of how Maines's remark came to drive a red-hot poker into America's divided soul, but it's only now that some of the poison has begun to dissipate.

Early concerns about the premature demise of the Chicks' career subsided when the furiously unapologetic single Not Ready to Make Nice became the most downloaded track on iTunes, despite a lack of radio airplay. Then the album went to number one on the Billboard 200 after selling half a million copies in the week after its release in America last month. It looks set to be their first UK top 10 album this Sunday.

The recruitment of Rick Rubin as producer, the man who rejuvenated Johnny Cash, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Neil Diamond and others, is guaranteed to extend the Chicks' appeal, though it would be disappointing if the album's thoughtful range of subject matter (from IVF to Alzheimer's) was overshadowed by the Bush episode.

"I think for longevity's sake, our music had to mature and we had to mature as people," says Maguire. "Not that this particular event had to happen, but it sped up the process for us and helped us make a record that's really meaningful to us, whether or not other people see that."


'Taking the Long Way' is out now on Sony. The Dixie Chicks are on 'Later' tomorrow (BBC2, 11.35pm).

[someguy]

Patriotism is really abused a lot of the time.

Disagreeing with the government does not mean you are unpatriotic. I've noticed this attitude has been used a lot, I think I made a thread about it when this forum started up.

I agree with Maines, patriotism is not a huge necessity. You can be proud of it all, but when it gets to the point of shoving it in your face it's annoying and sometimes disgusting.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by someguy
Patriotism is really abused a lot of the time.

Disagreeing with the government does not mean you are unpatriotic. I've noticed this attitude has been used a lot, I think I made a thread about it when this forum started up.

I agree with Maines, patriotism is not a huge necessity. You can be proud of it all, but when it gets to the point of shoving it in your face it's annoying and sometimes disgusting.

I agree with you, someguy.

I think that disagreeing with the government is a VERY patriotic statement; our country was based on the understanding that the American people have a say in what goes on. To simply blatantly agree with everything the government says, regardless of whether or not it matches the wants of the people is an insult to the basis of our establishment and to our freedom.

However, while I agree with the Chicks' statement that blind patriotism for the sake of selling something is disgusting *coughcoughAnnCoultercoughcough*, I also think that saying Bush sucks for the sake of selling something is equally disgusting *coughcoughNatalieMainescoughcough*.


My point here? Think for yourself, America. I know, it makes your brain hurt and you'd rather watch Entourage, but just attempt it....you never know what might happen.


~darchangel~

[Vong]

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"
- Oscar Wilde

[EVILxxx]

Ofcourse patriotism is important. Without patriotism there is apathy. Apathy towards what your country's government does or doesn't do.
What is beginning to annoy me is the two sides of the political spectrum in this country claiming to be more patriotic than the other.
"You don't support our military's mission. You're unpatriotic!"
" Nuh uh! You don't question the actions of your government. You're unpatriotic."

[darchangel]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
Ofcourse patriotism is important. Without patriotism there is apathy. Apathy towards what your country's government does or doesn't do.
What is beginning to annoy me is the two sides of the political spectrum in this country claiming to be more patriotic than the other.
"You don't support our military's mission. You're unpatriotic!"
" Nuh uh! You don't question the actions of your government. You're unpatriotic."

Well, by the scenario you've described, which side (if either) do you think is 'really' patriotic, as according to the dictionary definition of patriotism?


patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism]



~darchangel~

[Vong]

Keeping in mind that even in dictionaries you'll find political biases.

The New Oxford dictionary that I have contains a "loving of one's country", but without the "willingness to sacrifice for it".

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by darchangel
Well, by the scenario you've described, which side (if either) do you think is 'really' patriotic, as according to the dictionary definition of patriotism?


patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism]



~darchangel~

They are both patriotic in their own ways. It has more to do with why you believe what you belive that makes you patriotic. If you disagree with Iraq because you hate republicans, you aren't very patriotic. If it's because you care for your country and it's heading in the wrong direction because of it... you get the idea.
Sacrifice can mean many things. Donating money and time could fall under this catergory, not just risking you're life.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by darchangel
Well, by the scenario you've described, which side (if either) do you think is 'really' patriotic, as according to the dictionary definition of patriotism?


patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: nationalism]



~darchangel~

Are you claiming that people who oppose Iraq war don't love their country? Or that they are not WILLING to sacrifice for it? The last time I heard, just about everyone of them is willing to fight in a war for their country, IF THE WAR PROTECTS THEIR COUNTRY.

And whether the war in Iraq is protecting USA is up to debate - Quite a few think that it's making America a less safe place.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by Tuukka
Are you claiming that people who oppose Iraq war don't love their country? Or that they are not WILLING to sacrifice for it? The last time I heard, just about everyone of them is willing to fight in a war for their country, IF THE WAR PROTECTS THEIR COUNTRY.

And whether the war in Iraq is protecting USA is up to debate - Quite a few think that it's making America a less safe place.


Tuukka, is this directed AT ME? If so, here's my response:


A) That definition was from websters.com....I didn't make it up.

B) If you've ever read my posts, you'd know that I WHOLE-FUCKING-HEARTEDLY oppose war in ANY form, to say nothing of a war that was started for literally NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

C) As stated by the definition, I AM a patriot...I love my country, and I'm willing to make sacrifices to help my fellow Americans, because I care about this country and the people who live in it. However, 'sacrifices' do not include our rights and freedoms or our lives. Loving my country doesn't mean that I (or anybody else) should have to die for it. A country stops being a nation and starts being a group of people who happen to live near each other if a ideal becomes more important than someone else's personal freedoms or worse, their life.



~darchangel~

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by darchangel
Tuukka, is this directed AT ME? If so, here's my response:


A) That definition was from websters.com....I didn't make it up.

B) If you've ever read my posts, you'd know that I WHOLE-FUCKING-HEARTEDLY oppose war in ANY form, to say nothing of a war that was started for literally NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

C) As stated by the definition, I AM a patriot...I love my country, and I'm willing to make sacrifices to help my fellow Americans, because I care about this country and the people who live in it. However, 'sacrifices' do not include our rights and freedoms or our lives. Loving my country doesn't mean that I (or anybody else) should have to die for it. A country stops being a nation and starts being a group of people who happen to live near each other if a ideal becomes more important than someone else's personal freedoms or worse, their life.



~darchangel~

Ah, sorry!

I thought you were making a suggestion that being pro-war makes one more patriotic, but that obviously wasn't what you were trying to say at all.

[someguy]

AW SHIT SON NOW YA DONE IT

[Tayzlor]

Well, owning a flag certainly doesn't equate being patriotic. A lot of the neanderthals in these parts hoist their flags and try to one-up each other with bumper stickers, but can't tell you much about the Constitution. So as a pre-requisite of being called Patriotic, you should at least know, say, burning the flag is unconstitutional.

"Love of one country" is too vague, I like dictionary.com's

"Feeling, expressing, or inspired by love for one's country."

But Maines is right. The land is too big to like even a majority of it. You can like your shack in Alaska, but why does that have to convert into love of the nation? You can love the Constitution, the ideals and the rights, but you can flat out hate how it is being carried out, how uninspired boars wedge their way and carry out their own interests, and bring their prejudices within and introduce legislation. Or you can hate the self-importance, the indulgence, the arrogance, the fucking xenophobia of Americans. So what the hell does the flag represent? Is it supposed to show general love of the place, or is it an endorsement of how it carries business, you know, the Constitution and what not? Embracing the flag is dangerous, because it is too vague. You know, it's more complex than that.

Patriotism isn't important. It's not important in any non-World Cup context introduced.

[electriclite]

Patriotism becomes more prominent in this country when it is challenged. When its not it does reside in a state of temporary apathy, because let's face it, what we have the privilege of enjoying everyday we forget the value of.

My mother has lived in this country for over 30 years. She complains about its mindnumbing beauracracies, its pinheaded citizens who vote for the same unchallenged figureheads (she still lives in Miami), the list can go on and on. But when her Chilean husband outright condemns the country as a whole for what it did in his country decades ago and around the world, her complaints vanish and she feels herself become more and more American.

Patriotism is a part of everyone whether they feel it or not. But it always comes out when its being challanged by "foreign" or challenging entities or experiences. I imagine the majority of us would feel that "love of country" if we were forced, for whatever reason, to live outside of it. Patriotism is tied to very closely to our own identities. We can damn the policies of our governments, criticize the ineptitude and corruption of our politicians and the bone-headed beliefs of its citizens, but in the eyes of those who are from other countries we're all part of the same place,unless they have the luxury of getting to know us individually.

Its not about loving the whole of a geography, citizenry, government, its about loving the place you call home. And home can go far beyond just the place you come to at the end of the day.

That being said I am in agreement with Maines about "ultra-patriotism" in the media being used as a way to sell cars, music, news stations and politicians' careers. I find it literally nauseating when I see people making careers and career strategries off of hyping up "their love of country" by literally doing the LEAST they can do to show that same love of country.

I always find the sincerity of people dubious when they have to almost literally shout their "sincerity" for all sundry to hear.

[Lynn7]

That was very beautiful! I was with you up until the last part. I feel bad when people are put down for expressing their patriotism and their motives are questioned. I think sometimes (this is not aimed at you or your post, I am just going on here) people who express patriiotism through flag waving etc are stereotyped as ignorant or insincere or backward in their thinking.

I think patriotism is important cause without it we will fall apart as a nation. I just loved that time after 9-11 when we all came together as a nation. There was no right or left or right or wrong- we had been attacked and we all came together. I will never forget that as long as I live! I remember being away for a few days to Maine and every business and home and car was flying American flags! It was simply awesome!

[bigred760]

I don't think patriotism becomes more prominent when it's challenged. You are right that it does, no doubt about it, but it's also all around come the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Veteran's Day. I'm right there standing with everybody else at a baseball, basketball, football game or other sporting event, hats off, when the Star-Spangled Banner is sung before EACH game. Hell, at hockey games, they play Canada's national anthem sometimes.

My continuing problem with the overrated Dixie Chicks, especially their lead singer, is that they're always bashing others for what they're doing, like they can do no wrong. They bash country singers for their redneck style of music -when they've got a very country song called "Goodbye Earl" about the killing of an abusive husband. Maines appeared really mature wearing a shirt with the letters "FUTK" during her feud with Toby Keith. Now she's bashing singers and songwriters for songs that recognize the U.S. and its troops fighting for their country - because they make money off of it. She's the one that bashed Bush for being from Texas . . . IN LONDON. I'd like to know how many of those audience members at that show even knew the President was from Texas. And the Dixie Chicks new single isn't about ultrapatriotism, it isn't about being anti-war, or anything like that. It's about how they've been criticized, bashed, and insulted . . . cry me a river.

[Lynn7]

Great post Bigred!

It's funny but those two soldiers' bodies were discovered the other day. Someone told me that their penises were cut off and shoved into their mouths and their eyes were gouged out and their arms and legs had been broken. I have not seen too much about this. Where is the outrage? Where is the outpouring of love and support for the families of these boys? When Abu Gharib happened it was all over the news every minute of the day and recently where some GIS were accused of killing an innocent Iraqi it has really been sensationalized. Well, I want these soldiers' deaths to be sensationalized. I want to see wall to wall coverage of these barbarous acts so that every one can see the evil we are dealing with. And it is evil.


This is from John Gibson's editorial:


Where's Outrage From Human Rights Groups Over Murdered U.S. Soldiers?

Wednesday, June 21, 2006

By John Gibson




The silence from the human rights groups is grotesque.

Two American soldiers are captured. Time for the insurgency to prove they can abide the Geneva Accords, or any standard of decency. Or time for them to prove they can confine their barbarity to simple aggressive interrogation techniques. Or time for them to prove that they are better than the hated Americans.

But none of that.

Instead, it's gouging out eyes, hacking off limbs, cutting off heads and booby-trapping the remains.

OK, let's say we already know about these people we're fighting. We can recall only a few days ago — the days immediately prior to killing Zarqawi — 17 heads were found in fruit boxes in the same area where these American soldiers were captured, tortured and slaughtered like farm animals. We already know how bad these people are we are fighting.

But where are the human rights groups who protest mistreatment such as feeding detainees Froot Loops, or denying them sleep or peace and quiet while we try to get information from them, or even go so far as to let a dog snarl at them or dunk their heads underwater for a few moments? These people are being tortured, the human rights groups howl.

What do they have to say about the head-cutters? Nothing.

Why? Is it because they are embarrassed at the behavior of the people they are defending?

That's probably it. Pure embarrassment. So they don't say a word. Let it be quickly forgotten, like poor Nick Berg whose head was removed and dangled before a camera.

The insurgents are trying to kill us. We worry about rules of engagement.

The insurgents infiltrate the Iraqi military and then ambush American troops they are patrolling with — that happened recently — but we put Marines in chains on the allegation they killed an Iraqi who wasn't an insurgent after all.

The people who are trying to kill us kill Iraqis wantonly to try to get to us. But the problem is the American Marine who returns fire, a building collapses and innocents are crushed?

The human rights crowd needs to speak up, and this time not about the Americans but for the Americans.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Well, I want these soldiers' deaths to be sensationalized.



Really? I'd rather just see our troops pulled out of Iraq so no more of them have to die that way.




~darchangel~

[electriclite]

Yeah, obviously its harder to send organized professional complaints to a group that doesn't have a listed address.

Its not like when we found out that Libya trained the hijackers of the Pan Am flight that crashed over Scotland and put a crushing embargo on them, and allowed the victim's families to sue the government. You could send someone over there and meet someone to tell them "You did a bad thing and now you're fucked!"

I think the reason for the "lack" of outrage is that the only place it can go is to the air really, or airwaves, but these fuckers aren't going to care cause they have no established setup and don't really care what we have to say, until we've captured them and teach them the meaning of the word "reciprocity", in which case I wouldn't mind a little human rights violation. Not very Christian of me but then again that wasn't very "Islamic" of them either.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by darchangel
Really? I'd rather just see our troops pulled out of Iraq so no more of them have to die that way.




~darchangel~

That won't stop it. They are here in our country already and we can expect to be attacked at any point. I am just hopeful that some of the information we have gained over the past few years in Iraq gives us some inroads in finding some of these evil people. They are at war with us and it will not end. But the world should start to show some outrage and stand together because all this silence just emboldens these guys.

[The Postmaster General]

Wait a minute - Ozzy pissed on the Alamo, and Bush still invited him to a White House dinner and chummed up with him.

Anyway -

Patriotism, too often I feel, is confused with PRIDE. Pride isn't really a good thing. You don't have to think your countries shit doesn't stink to be patriotic. You don't have to lie to yourself and others to be patriotic. Remembering the goodness that your country has, and embracing the goodness that is there - that's patriotism in my book. Realizing that you are one of millions that make up a whole, brought together by one common boundary - that's patriotism. Yes we will all disagree, and yes we will all agree, but there are those special moments when we come together. To watch fireworks, to see a sporting event, to laugh at shows on TV, to cry at the loss of fellow Americans, to be concerned with the troubles that lie ahead. From the most mundane to the most poignant acts - these are things that undisputedly unite us. Recognizing what that is, and revealing in it - That's patriotism you can write home about.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by Lynn7
That won't stop it. They are here in our country already and we can expect to be attacked at any point. I am just hopeful that some of the information we have gained over the past few years in Iraq gives us some inroads in finding some of these evil people. They are at war with us and it will not end. But the world should start to show some outrage and stand together because all this silence just emboldens these guys.


The only thing the past few years has given us is a bunch of new people who want Americans dead, because apparently there weren't enough already. Also if we're searching out the evil people, then why haven't we been looking for Bin Laden instead of applauding ourselves for Hussein and Zarkawi?

I don't think anyone's being silent about the deaths of our soldiers...that's why most of the American people wants the troops pulled from Iraq, or at least starting the evacuation of troops.


~darchangel~

[shoe1985]

Patriotism to me is loving your country. I love my country, but I disagree with most of the things this administration has done. I believe that is your right. It shows you are Patriotic because this is the land of the free.

I feel out troops should be home right now. The goal was to get Bin Laden, yet we pushed to get Saddam, who was proven to have nothing to do with 9/11. You don't start a war on terror, when people did nothing to you. You can say, "Hey we need to get them before they get us," but Iraq was never going to attack us. They would of done it by now. Saddam even said he felt bad for the american people, but not the government or President.

Fighting for your rights is being patriotic. Minimum wage should of been raised, so when I vote this November, believe me, I am voting for the people who voted yes for it. If you voted no, you are not getting my vote. Why do you ask? Because, they gave themselves raises and tried to keep it quiet. So, I guess people can live off of $5.15 an hour, but you can't live off of $100,000 a year. Let's see those people make around $10,000 a year, that is $90,000 difference. If we can do it, why can't they?

Buying a flag used to be, but you can't find one made in america, how is that patriotic? Even though Support Our Troop ribbons are not american made.

This is what makes you patriotic, standing up for your rights and voicing your opinions, even if it goes against the government, and buy american made stuff, otherwise you won't have any jobs left.

Is it important? Yes, because this is your and my country.

[bigred760]

I don't see how "fighting for your rights" is patriotic. If a person doesn't fight for their rights - does that make them unpatriotic? Does it make them love or respect their country less?

"Raising minimum wage" is not a right. You're not going to go into a courtroom and argue that it's your right to have a higher minimum wage. That's what politicians are for - and that's where your vote comes in - but it's not a right. You can be proud of the fact that you're able to vote for who you want in office. And that's patriotic.

[shoe1985]

Remember though, everyone has a different meaning. The overall meaning in supporting your country, not the president, or the government, but the country.

We do have a right to say we want something done. We elected people to listen to our complaints and make changes for the better.

This land was built on freedom, and fighting for your rights is a freedom most countries don't have.