Lebanon, Israel, Iran, and all those other annoying countries

[Ki'esha Foxx]

Here's my theory of how the bombings and fighting in the Middle East should be handled. Mind you, it's just a theory, and it's also probably a good thing that I have no real power in this country's ways of war and diplomacy.

Lebanon and Israel warfare
Here's how the US deals with it: don't do a goddamn thing. Just stand back and let them blow themselves to hell and then just say good riddance. Or, we get so sick of it we just bomb the countries ourselves and be done with it. Let's face it; if Israel had not been named a Jewish state in 1948 a lot of this conflict would not be happening. So, in a roundabout, half-assed kind of way the US is responsible for the constant bitching about and hatred of Israel. Sure, there'd still be fighting about who can be religious rulers, blood descendants of Mohammad or anybody with enough faith and devotion, but we wouldn't constantly be bombarded by the news about explosions in Beirut and more hatred of Israel. This is nothing new. Why is the media so surprised by it? And the Israeli ambassador just said on the Situation Room that until the two Israeli soldiers being held captive by Hezbollah are released, there will be no talks of a ceasefire. What did he say when asked if Hezbollah asked for their soldiers back? Absolutely not. So Israel egts to have everything (their soldiers, their safety, and a ceasefire), while Lebanon gets nothing? Yeah, they'll really go for that. Why don't you try selling them Daisy Dukes and crop tops that say "Cutie" and sweat pants that say "Juicy" on the butt? They'll buy those things before they ever agree to that inanne request.

And before anyone says anything about the innocent people trapped in the middle of the war, let me say this: since when has Beirut been a top tourist spot? Has Beirut ever had peace that lasted for more than six months? And yes, I do feel truly, deeply sorry for the citizens of Lebanon and Israel who are stuck there, especially the children, and I hope for the best for all of them. But those who were on vacation there need a head exam. There's always been fighting in that part of the world for no better reason than those governments like drama and have nothing better to do, so why would you choose to vacation there for any amount of time?

Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and other problem areas:
Same solution: either stand back and watch the fireworks, or bomb the hell out of them and get it over with. They will not stop making nuclear weapons or give up their capability to make WMDs or any other kind of long-range weapon, so giving them a deadline isn't going to do much of anything but make the US look even stupider than it already does. Does anyone here honestly believe that by setting a date to stop making nuclear weapons Iran or North Korea will actually say, "yeah! Sure buddy! No prob! Bob! Quit running the plants! We're shuttin' down shop for good!" Yeah, that will happen when I lose fifty pounds and grow about six inches higher and get a tan. Meaning, never.

I know this is a pretty narrow view of things and most people here will disagree vehemently with me, but I don't hear any better plans of action coming from any government. Until I do, I'll hold to this theory and still be thankful that I don't a finger on The Button.

Now, yell away!

[Monotreme]

Here comes the artillery. You'll excuse me for also being rather blunt and aggressive, but Haifa (where I live) got bombed another 6 times today, and I'm getting really pissed off at this whole situation:

Yes, the Jewish state my country of Israel might be a cause of many tensions in this area of the Middle East, but if it weren't formed, we'd all be dead, so excuse me while those camel-fucker Arabs can go fuck themselves and make some room for their cousins the Jews. Israel is a spearhead of the western world out here in the East, and Arab countries such as Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia wouldn't be nearly as advanced as they are without Israel serving as a Western influence in the area. The Palestinians can also go fuck themselves: They got 3 chances in the past to get their own country and declined: Now they're getting a 4th chance, and if those fucking terrorist Hamas bastards refuse this opportunity as well... then to hell with them all.

Also, Israel will not rest until the soldiers are returned because A) unlike Hezbollah, we actually care about our citizens and B) the soldiers were taken as an unprecedented and blatant ACT OF WAR on the Hezbollah's part. I know it's very childish to point fingers and everything, but... they started it. Israel also refuses to "return" Hezbollah's "soldiers" for a number of reasons. And they are: 1) They are not soldiers. Hezbollah does not have an army. They are terrorists. 2) They were not abducted by Israeli forces but rather arrested for organizing and/or participating in terrorist actions targeting Israeli civilians. 3) If released, these terrorists will simply return to the Hezbollah and reign more terror upon this country.

And as for this:

Originall posted by Ki'esha Foxx:
Here's how the US deals with it: don't do a goddamn thing. Just stand back and let them blow themselves to hell and then just say good riddance. Or, we get so sick of it we just bomb the countries ourselves and be done with it.
First of all... there will not be any "blowing themselves to hell" because currently Hezbollah are getting their asses kicked. Secondly, about American bombing... thanks but no thanks. The IDF can handle this situation on its own.

Originall posted by Ki'esha Foxx:
So Israel egts to have everything (their soldiers, their safety, and a ceasefire), while Lebanon gets nothing? Yeah, they'll really go for that.
Lebanon doesn't get nothing. In fact, Lebanon will gain more from this than Israel. Finally, the Lebanese people won't feel guilty for harboring terrorist activity in the form of Hezbollah within their country's borders, and they won't feel bad for having a government who is too weak to do anything about Hezbollah on their own. Problem is the Lebanese people are too stupid to get it. The Christians and Druze people get it, but as long as there are Shi'ite and Hezbollah members on the country's parliament and in the government, they won't realise that harbouring Hezbollah and allowing them freedom to do whatever they please, including terrorist actions against Israel, is a disgrace for Lebanon who are trying their hardest and failing to pass as a democratic, sovereign country. They could take a page out of Egypt and Jordan's book. Do you know what happens if Egypt or Jordan get word of terrorist activity within their borders? They annihilate the threat. They send in their army and kill, kill, kill until there are no more terrorists. If Lebanon actually had the balls to do this, Israel's border would be silent AND Lebanon would be a man, prove to the world that it is a democratic sovereignty with cojones.

Israel has been trying to convince the Lebanese government to reach these conclusions on their own, but the fundamentalist fuck-jobs in the government are too busy sympathizing with Hezbollah's Jihad to open their eyes. Hopefully, world pressure and physical intervention from Condoleezza and a UN delegation will manage to convince Lebanon to wake up and do something about Hezbollah. How the government can actually call itself a sovereignty without taking responsibility for all the shit that's going on in its borders is way beyond me, but it's about time they get a wake-up call and do something about Hezbollah.

In the short-term range, Israel will stop attacks on Lebanon the moment Hezbollah stops firing rockets. Here's the thing, though - it will not work the other way. Hezbollah have been firing rockets on the northern towns for the past 24 years, since their formation in 1982 - there's no reason for them to stop now. Sure, they drastically increased the number of rockets launched and their range, but the bottom line is that if the IDF stops, the rockets will continue to fall. The only way the IDF will stop is until either A) Hezbollah is convinced to stop firing rockets targeting Israeli citizens or B) The IDF takes out Hezbollah's ability to fire rockets. Hopefully, option A will be what will end this situation, because frankly I don't have the patience for option B.

[Ki'esha Foxx]

That's another thing I forgot to mention: the UN. It's my opinion that if the UN does intervene, it will only fuck up the situation even more. It's probably just me, but I have not trusted that organization to handle anything aside from rescuing kitties from trees (and even then I wouldn't trust them with my cats) ever since Rwanda in '94. To me, it's just a big collection of asses who only talk about something but do nothing about it. They don't want to use force for fear of starting a global to-do or facing a backlash, but like you said: sometimes you just need to grow some balls and handle your business. But the UN will probably only step in after the fighting is over with and say something like, "Oops. We meant to be here sooner but we were too busy shoving our heads up our asses/in the sand and our bus was running late and it's really hot....why are we here again?" Again, just my opinion.

And I sincerely hope that you stay safe over there. I don't know how bad it really is, and I don't want to know the nitty-gritty, but keep yourself safe, alright? :(

[Vong]

My turn.

Here's how the US deals with it: don't do a goddamn thing. Just stand back and let them blow themselves to hell and then just say good riddance.

Fat chance.
Since when did America keep its nose out where it doesn't belong?
Anything that threatens their interests, they are there with bells on or telling their allies what to do. Case in point, Israel being America's Middle East guard dog taking on the big bad terrorists.

Or, we get so sick of it we just bomb the countries ourselves and be done with it.

Yee-haw! Let's blow ourselves up some Jews and "camel-fucking Arabs"!

since when has Beirut been a top tourist spot?

Maybe to the hundreds, if not thousands of people who once lived in Lebanon who visit family from their new countries. Sorry if the place doesn't compare to Orlando, but its home to more people than you think.

Does anyone here honestly believe that by setting a date to stop making nuclear weapons Iran or North Korea will actually say, "yeah! Sure buddy! No prob! Bob! Quit running the plants! We're shuttin' down shop for good!" Yeah, that will happen when I lose fifty pounds and grow about six inches higher and get a tan. Meaning, never.

Can you honestly tell me when countries like the U.S. will dismantle their 20,000+ nukes in their launch bays and quit being the police state of the world? I'm thinking never as well.

The fact is, North Korea has their nukes because they see other countries being able to own nukes. It's classic arms-race and "security dilemma" for North Korea. They want to feel secure and powerful at the same time, and test their limits of military strength. That isn't to say they will actually start a war. Kim Jong may be crazy, but he isn't stupid. The fact people are worried about North Korea proves paranoia is rampant among the masses.

First of all... there will not be any "blowing themselves to hell" because currently Hezbollah are getting their asses kicked.

Bullshit.
Ever since the fighting began 6 days ago, 200 citizens have died in the fighting in Lebanon, including 7 Canadians (4 of them children). Of those 200 people, only 3 are in Hezbollah. I don't think we can consider this being Hezbollah's ass kicked.

And it might be just me, but it seems most of the targets Israel is targeting are civilian targets. They have hit bridges, power plants, and civil buildings, one being a complex for the Red Cross. They have destroyed the airport, leaving thousands of ex-patriots of foreign nations stranded to be killed in the crossfire. Israel has done nothing but bomb shit across their border. This is a fucked up way of winning, if that's what you think.

Finally, the Lebanese people won't feel guilty for harboring terrorist activity in the form of Hezbollah within their country's borders, and they won't feel bad for having a government who is too weak to do anything about Hezbollah on their own.

You talk as if you know them personally.
Do you really think, as I have said in a previously thread, that these people actually care who the Hezbollah are? They are getting health care, education and social welfare from them. Lebanons' government can barely stand by itself after the decades of conflict. I wonder what would happen once Hezbollah is actually defeated. They will probably never be defeated. This is not a border-to-border war. This is a nation versus an organization. Its America vs al-Quada all over again.

How the government can actually call itself a sovereignty without taking responsibility for all the shit that's going on in its borders is way beyond me, but it's about time they get a wake-up call and do something about Hezbollah.

Perhaps if you lived there during their years of social and economic dispairity, you would understand.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Ki'esha Foxx
And before anyone says anything about the innocent people trapped in the middle of the war, let me say this: since when has Beirut been a top tourist spot? Has Beirut ever had peace that lasted for more than six months? And yes, I do feel truly, deeply sorry for the citizens of Lebanon and Israel who are stuck there, especially the children, and I hope for the best for all of them. But those who were on vacation there need a head exam. There's always been fighting in that part of the world for no better reason than those governments like drama and have nothing better to do, so why would you choose to vacation there for any amount of time?

If you have family there, then you'd be visiting. A Lebanese-Canadian family was killed over there this weekend while visitng their extended family in the country.

My paternal grandmother's second husband was Lebanese. He was pretty much the only grandfather I had and remember. My aunt, is half Lebanese and has family in Beirut and has visited them there before. In the past year she has tried to go back to see her family, but they've warned her in two different instances that it wasn't a good time.

But what are you gonna do? This is your family, that you care about.


Originally posted by Ki'esha Foxx

Iraq, Iran, North Korea, and other problem areas:
Same solution: either stand back and watch the fireworks, or bomb the hell out of them and get it over with. They will not stop making nuclear weapons or give up their capability to make WMDs or any other kind of long-range weapon, so giving them a deadline isn't going to do much of anything but make the US look even stupider than it already does. Does anyone here honestly believe that by setting a date to stop making nuclear weapons Iran or North Korea will actually say, "yeah! Sure buddy! No prob! Bob! Quit running the plants! We're shuttin' down shop for good!" Yeah, that will happen when I lose fifty pounds and grow about six inches higher and get a tan. Meaning, never.


Well the problem is, both options aren't options. Its all about allies.

You can't let N. Korea or Iran just go ahead, unfettered, making nuclear weapons because they'll just use them and attack allies of our's and then we'll have to get involved in a bigger squirmish. On the other side of your argument, about just bombing the hell out of these guys, is the ally factor again.

Iran and N. Korea, both have some MAJOR big brother allies.

N. Korea has China and Iran has Russia AND China, mainly because of energy contracts.

You really want us to go toe to toe with those guys? Because that's what would happen if we bombed either N. Korea and/or Iran.

This is of course, the reason why these little annoying countries get hitched up with these bigger countries. It gives them an umbrella to go about any questionable activities they see fit to do.

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by Vong
And it might be just me, but it seems most of the targets Israel is targeting are civilian targets. They have hit bridges, power plants, and civil buildings, one being a complex for the Red Cross. They have destroyed the airport, leaving thousands of ex-patriots of foreign nations stranded to be killed in the crossfire. Israel has done nothing but bomb shit across their border. This is a fucked up way of winning, if that's what you think.
The airport was bombed so the Hezbollah leadership wouldn't escape the country and go hide in the desert somewhere, like Bin Laden did.

The roads and bridges were bombed in order to hamper the transportation of rockets to southern Lebanon, where they are launched onto Israeli towns. And so far, it's working - 300 rockets on Friday, 100 on Sunday, 30 on Monday.

The civil buildings are bombed because they contain Hezbollah offices, logistics, communications, etc.

Lebanese army targets, namely radars, are bombed because they are helping the Hezbollah aim their rockets.

Civillians are killed because they choose to ignore Israel's warnings. It's unfortunate and tragic, yes - but if they'd left the neighbourhoods when Israel told them to, the number of civillian casualties would be much lower. Again, I feel I have to emphasize, though, I am NOT defending or excusing the death of civillians, and it truly is a shameful consequence of this war.

Also, nobody knows how many Hezbollah people died because Hezbollah refuse to release any numbers. But the number 3 makes about as much sense as an asshole on my elbow. First of all, the IDF has destroyed countless rocket launching silos and trucks, I say at least 20-30, each one manned by at least 4 people. Also, who knows how many people died when the Hezbollah hedquarters in south Beirut were targeted. Trust me, a lot more than 3 people died, but the goal of these attacks isn't to kill all the Hezbollah activists but to sever the chain of command and their ability to fire rockets in to Israel.

[Monotreme]

The latest developments: Hezbollah are putting up roadblocks to PREVENT citizens of the villages in southern Lebanon from fleeing to the North. They are also preventing the United Nations from getting access to these villages in order to supply them with food and supplies. Yep, Hezbollah's actions are DEFINITELY out of concern for the Lebanese people... :rolleyes:

Looks like Hezbollah's human shield in the southern villages wants out, but God fobid should Hezbollah actually show concern for the welfare and lives of the very people that support them in the south.

[Lynn7]

Newt Gingrich was just on a Boston radio talk show and he was saying that every time Isreal sought a peaceful way of life over many years, the terrorists made good use of that time to send thousands of missiles to Lebanon. So it really shows that there can not be appeasement with these people. We can not be uninvolved with what is going on in the world. These terrorists have no regard for life at all. They will kill innocent Muslim children who get in their way too. We do not want these people running loose all over the world. I hope Israel stays at this until the terriorists are all cleared out. But next we need to address the Iran and Syrian problem

Some think the reason Hezbollah did this was at Iran and Syria's behest to take attention away from Iranian developing a nuclear weapon. It might be that or it might be to take everyone's attention away from something else they are up to. There have been bombings and plots all over the world. The terrorists even wanted to behead the Canadian prime minister and have bombed India and many other places. This is not an Israeli problem These guys are out to conquer the world. The world needs to wake up and stop being frightened little appeasers.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Monotreme

The civil buildings are bombed because they contain Hezbollah offices, logistics, communications, etc.


Originally posted by Monotreme

Civillians are killed because they choose to ignore Israel's warnings. It's unfortunate and tragic, yes - but if they'd left the neighbourhoods when Israel told them to, the number of civillian casualties would be much lower. Again, I feel I have to emphasize, though, I am NOT defending or excusing the death of civillians, and it truly is a shameful consequence of this war.


Well wait a minute. If Israel is warning Lebanese civilians where they are going to hit, they're also warning Hezbollah, thereby compromising their attacks. So something isn't making sense in your statement.

[MacReady]

Yeah, isn't the IDF telling civilians to move out while also destroying roads, airports and shit? How are they supposed to get away from the destruction. (At least that's what I've been hearing)

Also, there's supposed to have been attacks on Tripoli in Northern Lebanon where Hezbollah is supposed to have a very weak presence. How is this helping? Won't all this bombing and destruction make the Israelis look evil and the Hezbollah who are fighting to rebel them from Lebanon's borders?

Lynn, you constantly claim terrorist are pure evil and must be destroyed when the IDF is totally decimating Lebanon, and has managed to kill 208 civilians and 22 soldiers so far. I think what your saying is full of shit.

[Vong]

Also, nobody knows how many Hezbollah people died because Hezbollah refuse to release any numbers. But the number 3 makes about as much sense as an asshole on my elbow. First of all, the IDF has destroyed countless rocket launching silos and trucks, I say at least 20-30, each one manned by at least 4 people. Also, who knows how many people died when the Hezbollah hedquarters in south Beirut were targeted. Trust me, a lot more than 3 people died, but the goal of these attacks isn't to kill all the Hezbollah activists but to sever the chain of command and their ability to fire rockets in to Israel.

I watched a news report on CTV with a reporter from the Daily Star in Beirut. He has seen the action first hand and hears the reports from both the Lebonese government and Hezbollah. He has said that only 3 Hezbollah officials have been killed.

Now, whether or not you believe this number is fact or fiction, the civilian-to-Hezbollah death ratio is fucking huge. And no matter what you might say Israel has said to the civilians in Lebanon, or what actions they have done to try and prevent civilian casualties, you cannot convince me that Israel is doing any of this with good intentions. They are invading a country and killing innocent civilians in the process. There is no justification for this. I can't believe two soldiers lives equate to the hundreds of people killed.

It's really amazing to see how fucked up things are in the Middle East, and why all of this started. People can point fingers at each nation for starting it, but everyone knows both people are to blame for not truly trying to work things out. It just goes to show how fucked up Israel, Lebanon and the entire Middle East really is.

Maybe we should just do what Ki'esha Foxx suggests; blow the shit out of the entire region. Start anew. I mean, most people living there are below the poverty line. Sending them back to the Stone-Age would be an improvement.

Yeah.

That's it!

LET'S BURN THE MOTHER FUCKERS!
BURN THEM ALL!!!

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by electriclite
Well wait a minute. If Israel is warning Lebanese civilians where they are going to hit, they're also warning Hezbollah, thereby compromising their attacks. So something isn't making sense in your statement.
If Hezbollah move away from the regions being bombed, then good riddance! But Hezbollah refuse to leave the area of southern Lebanon, because that's where they fire the rockets from. They don't just get up and go when Israel tells people to evacuate the area. That's the whole point, to get the innocent people out and leave the Hezbollah people in. But Hezbollah, those sneaky bastards, aren't letting any civillians flee north. They're putting up roadblocks, threatening and sometimes just flat-out shooting and killing civillians that try to escape, because that's their only form of defense. Sick and twisted, isn't it?

Vong, your pro-Hezbollah orientation is really distressing, as it's blocking out your logic. Let's break it down, shall we?

Originally posted by Vong
I watched a news report on CTV with a reporter from the Daily Star in Beirut. He has seen the action first hand and hears the reports from both the Lebonese government and Hezbollah. He has said that only 3 Hezbollah officials have been killed.
Of course Hezbollah say that only 3 Hezbollah actives have been killed. It's more convenient for them to make it seem like they are doing far better than they really are. But think about it logically. Israel has bombed and destroyed countless Hezbollah offices, outposts, and hundreds of rocket launching teams, each one containing at least four Hezbollah activists. Does it really make sense that only 3 have been killed? And why are you putting trust into statements released by Hezbollah, a terrorist organization that has lied about pretty much everything they're doing? You say the civillian-to-Hezbollah death ratio is "fucking huge." But how do we know this? Nobody actually knows how many Hezbollah activists have been killed, so how can we know what the civillian-to-Hezbollah ratio is? Next:

And no matter what you might say Israel has said to the civilians in Lebanon,
"what I might say Israel has said"? Is it so hard to accept cold, hard facts? This is not a matter of opinion, this is not my personal perception of these events. I don't "think" that Israel has warned civillians in Lebanon. I know so. It's a fact. all the news organizations, including foreign ones and even including Arab and Lebanese ones, acknowledge the fact that Israel warns citizens before they bomb anything. You can't deny this, or make it seem like it's a matter of opinion. It's a cold, hard fact. But the number of Hezbollah casualties, which you seem so certain of, are not cold, hard facts. Nobody knows how many were killed.

you cannot convince me that Israel is doing any of this with good intentions. They are invading a country and killing innocent civilians in the process. There is no justification for this. I can't believe two soldiers lives equate to the hundreds of people killed.
Alright. Why doesn't Israel just ignore a direct and blatant act of war perpetrated by Hezbollah, let the two soldiers rot and die in Hezbollah prison, allow the rockets to continue raining down on Israeli towns in the north, killing innocents, destroying structures and forcing over 1 million citizens to LIVE in bomb shelters, and allow Hezbollah to continue arming themselves and increasing their military force until they reach a point in which it they will simply flat-out invade? I don't think so. You're missing the point, though - the abduction of the two soldiers was simply the trigger. Hezbollah have been firing rockets at the northern towns for 20 years now, it's just intensifying now because of the war. They are a continuous threat to Israel, and it is about time this threat is eliminated. This isn't about the soldiers. This is about depleting a threat to Israel and the western world in general. Also, your dismissal of the abduction of the two Israeli soldiers is disturbing. This act of war initiated by Hezbollah is far more horrible than you make it out to be.

Israel is not invading Lebanon. They are executing air strikes. Since when are air strikes invasion. Ground forces are not conquering land and claiming it in the name of Israel. And even if ground forces will eventually be involved in the war, they will not be INVADING, but attacking Hezbollah targets. No justification? How about a direct act of war and aggression perpetrated by Hezbollah against Israel? Have democratic countries lost their right to defend themselves? Were we supposed to just sit aside and take it? I think not, sir.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the civillian casualties are indeed most unfortunate. But unfortunately, they are bringing it upon themselves. They refuse to heed Israel's warnings for them to evacuate, and those who try to evacuate are stopped by Hezbollah. The UN also refuse to let these refugees into their camps. Some help, huh?

Lebanon are indeed fucked up. A government that fails to take responsibility over terrorist activity within their borders is truly fucked up. But I don't understand your attacks on Israel. Israel is doing what any democratic, sovereign country would be doing - defending herself. Hezbollah are attacking and Israel are trying to take out their military ability in order to put a stop to the attacks. It's such a simple concept, I don't see how it's so difficult to grasp. But the Middle East is doing much better than it was doing before. Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are doing pretty well, as are Kuwait and the United Arab Emerates. The main problem in this region is Iran, Syria and Hezbollah. And it's about time that something is done about them. Enough with the apathy, enough ignoring the clear and present signs of aggression.

You want justification, Vong? How about the fact that 8 Israeli soldiers were brutally murdered and two unprecedently kidnapped by Hezbollah militants, with no reason or justification WHATSOEVER? How about the fact that Hezbollah are blatantly and shamelessly targeting Israeli civillians with their rocket launching. How about the fact that over 1 million Israeli citizens in the north are currently living in public bomb shelters. Sleeping, eating, and spending all day just sitting around while hearing explosions every few minutes. How about the fact that 13 innocent Israelis have been killed in the rocket attacks, including elderly people and children. How about the fact that the entire north of the country, including Haifa, is completely paralyzed: Nobody goes to work, everything is shut down, and everyone is just sitting at home watching the events unfild on the TV, biting their fingers in anticipation for the next siren, running for their lives down to the bomb shelter when the sirens start going off and praying that a rocket doesn't hit their house.

[Tuukka]

Just wanted to say:

Monotreme, I find your posts about this issue very interesting and informative to read. I also think it's great that despite the fact this is something that concerns you on a very personal level, you still succesfully try to maintain a perspective about everything. Not letting negative emotions overthrow logic and reason. I suspect a lot of Israeli people are not able to keep their head as calm as you are, in a situation like this.

So I respect your attitude.

[Monotreme]

Well thank you, Tukka, that's a very nice thing to say. It's not easy to keep calm and maintain a perspective when every few minutes the sirens go off and I have to go down to the bomb shelter and hear some ground-shaking explosions go off before I can go back upstairs.

[Vong]

Of course Hezbollah say that only 3 Hezbollah actives have been killed. It's more convenient for them to make it seem like they are doing far better than they really are. But think about it logically. Israel has bombed and destroyed countless Hezbollah offices, outposts, and hundreds of rocket launching teams, each one containing at least four Hezbollah activists. Does it really make sense that only 3 have been killed? And why are you putting trust into statements released by Hezbollah, a terrorist organization that has lied about pretty much everything they're doing? You say the civillian-to-Hezbollah death ratio is "fucking huge." But how do we know this? Nobody actually knows how many Hezbollah activists have been killed, so how can we know what the civillian-to-Hezbollah ratio is? Next:

It's so convenient for you to jump to conclusions and regard eveything that only Israel says and/or not believing a thing Hezbollah or Lebanon states. If you believe that Hezbollah is only claiming a few deaths among their members for sympathy purposes in a political maneuver, Israel has just as much a reason to do the same as well.

This war has become a propoganda machine. Both sides are sending appeals over the airwaves to gain support. The lines are being drawn and the only ones suffering are the civilians caught in the middle of the crossfire. Obviously we are both receiving different information on the issue. But that is war for you.

The ratio of civilians-Hezbollah deaths means jack to me. It was only to counter what you feel as Israel "winning" this conflict. The only fact I am attesting to is that inncoent people, no matter what the actual amount is, are dying. That, my friend, is the real horror of this conflict.

By the way, in my original statement, the reporter got his information from both Hezbollah and the Lebonese government officials.

"what I might say Israel has said"?

Forgive the poor grammar. I was writing that response at 1 am. I tried to fit as much as possible since I only had so much time before I went to sleep :D

Is it so hard to accept cold, hard facts? This is not a matter of opinion, this is not my personal perception of these events. I don't "think" that Israel has warned civillians in Lebanon. I know so. It's a fact. all the news organizations, including foreign ones and even including Arab and Lebanese ones, acknowledge the fact that Israel warns citizens before they bomb anything. You can't deny this, or make it seem like it's a matter of opinion. It's a cold, hard fact. But the number of Hezbollah casualties, which you seem so certain of, are not cold, hard facts. Nobody knows how many were killed.

"Facts" are subjective in times of war. As I stated earlier, this is a propoganda machine where people are being fed what the media/governments wants to feed you. Since you are in Israel, I can probably gurantee what you are hearing is all in favor of Israeli action. Your "facts" are meaningless right now, just as mine are.

Yes, you live in Haifa where shit is being thrown at you. But can you honestly speak for those not a few hundreds kilometres away from you? I can probably say that their side of the story would sound alot different from yours. Just as my "facts" conflict with yours.

Alright. Why doesn't Israel just ignore a direct and blatant act of war perpetrated by Hezbollah, let the two soldiers rot and die in Hezbollah prison, allow the rockets to continue raining down on Israeli towns in the north, killing innocents, destroying structures and forcing over 1 million citizens to LIVE in bomb shelters, and allow Hezbollah to continue arming themselves and increasing their military force until they reach a point in which it they will simply flat-out invade? I don't think so.

This is the conundrum that I feel is ripping apart the Middle East. Diplomacy would work far greater than military action. Most conflicts can be solved easily if people would be willing to talk. The fact that the people in the Middle East are a bunch of ignorant, stuck-up, superstitious, land-whoring assholes makes diplomacy look like a snowball in hell; it'll never happen.


You're missing the point, though - the abduction of the two soldiers was simply the trigger. Hezbollah have been firing rockets at the northern towns for 20 years now, it's just intensifying now because of the war. They are a continuous threat to Israel, and it is about time this threat is eliminated. This isn't about the soldiers. This is about depleting a threat to Israel and the western world in general. Also, your dismissal of the abduction of the two Israeli soldiers is disturbing. This act of war initiated by Hezbollah is far more horrible than you make it out to be.

Sure I get the point of all of this. It's a continual battle of the babies of "he started it". Unless someone steps up and says, "That's enough", their will be continual and neverending battles to be fought. You might think that the "trigger" to all of this was the abduction of two soldiers. But like so many people before you, you are missing the greater picture and not going farther back to what started all of this. There are reasons to all situations, the problem is finding how far back it actually goes. And as I said before in another post, all of this can easily be traced back to when the Jews thrust themselves onto the land and claimed it to be theirs.

Since no one in the Middle East will realize this, every single act made against each other will perpetrate and justify a retaliatory action in response. It's a viscious cycle that will never end. Even if somehow Hezbollah is destroyed, do you really think all the bloodshed will end? Even if the soldiers were rescued, do you really think Israel will stop its advance? Or if Hezbollah will stop attacking North Israel?

Let's face is, peace if a luxury in the Middle East that will never be seen.

And by the way, its from my understanding of history that the PLO used Lebanon as an area to launch missles into Israel. This was the cause of Israel's first invasion into Lebanon, was it not? Somehow I doubt its been Hezbollah firing rockets for the past 20 years in south Lebanon the entire time. Unless you are able to identify who fired each rocket into Israel, the ones who stand to gain from each missle hitting targets at Israel would be the PLO, and now Hamas, who publicly vows for the extermination of Israel.

Israel is not invading Lebanon. They are executing air strikes. Since when are air strikes invasion. Ground forces are not conquering land and claiming it in the name of Israel. And even if ground forces will eventually be involved in the war, they will not be INVADING, but attacking Hezbollah targets. No justification? How about a direct act of war and aggression perpetrated by Hezbollah against Israel? Have democratic countries lost their right to defend themselves? Were we supposed to just sit aside and take it? I think not, sir.

I have heard reports that Israel intends to place a military presence in south Lebanon to create the buffer zone that once existed that gave Israel some measure of peace for 20 years.

Once again, though, you are claiming that Hezbollah is the only aggressor, when I believe it was Israel that invaded their country in 1982, and Hezbollah was created in response to Israel's prescence. The group was created to defend Lebanon against Israel. So if any "direct act of war and aggression" was perpetrated here, it was Israel 20 years ago and now everything that is happening to this day is a regretable bite in the ass from the past.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the civillian casualties are indeed most unfortunate. But unfortunately, they are bringing it upon themselves. They refuse to heed Israel's warnings for them to evacuate, and those who try to evacuate are stopped by Hezbollah. The UN also refuse to let these refugees into their camps. Some help, huh?

It's so easy for you to say that people should just vacate the area when the bombs are being dropped. Do you think any of them have any other places to go? Or have the means to getting there? Israel has done a great job in helping close stores, so the Lebonese people can't buy any food. They've also done superb jobs in taking out bridges and roads, so no supplies can come in, or people getting out. And how about those gas stations being targeted? Even if each person in Beirut had a car, where the fuck do they get the gas from?

Let's not forget the status Lebanon is in right now. Do you really think any of them will take the risk of leaving their homes and risk being hit by missles. Or better yet, be robbed in the streets or at border crossings to Syria?

Sure Israel can say what they can to the Lebonese people to leave their homes, but can Israel gurantee their safety? Since I doubt they can, do you really think these people are going to take the risk of leaving their homes and lives and hopefully survive the trip to some remote place? But hey! Israel is at least giving them warnings. I guess that leaves them guiltless when it comes to murdering innocent people, eh?



You want justification, Vong? How about the fact that 8 Israeli soldiers were brutally murdered and two unprecedently kidnapped by Hezbollah militants, with no reason or justification WHATSOEVER? How about the fact that Hezbollah are blatantly and shamelessly targeting Israeli civillians with their rocket launching. How about the fact that over 1 million Israeli citizens in the north are currently living in public bomb shelters. Sleeping, eating, and spending all day just sitting around while hearing explosions every few minutes. How about the fact that 13 innocent Israelis have been killed in the rocket attacks, including elderly people and children. How about the fact that the entire north of the country, including Haifa, is completely paralyzed: Nobody goes to work, everything is shut down, and everyone is just sitting at home watching the events unfild on the TV, biting their fingers in anticipation for the next siren, running for their lives down to the bomb shelter when the sirens start going off and praying that a rocket doesn't hit their house.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude.
There is no such thing as "tit for tat" when it comes to people's lives. Just because innocent people are killed in one situation, doesn't mean its justified to lower yourselves down to their level and do the same. You are only inflaming the situation and making it a whole lot worse. Though I find it interesting and cute how you are able to make victims out of the soldiers and not out of the civilians killed by Israeli missles.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Monotreme
If Hezbollah move away from the regions being bombed, then good riddance! But Hezbollah refuse to leave the area of southern Lebanon, because that's where they fire the rockets from. They don't just get up and go when Israel tells people to evacuate the area. That's the whole point, to get the innocent people out and leave the Hezbollah people in. But Hezbollah, those sneaky bastards, aren't letting any civillians flee north. They're putting up roadblocks, threatening and sometimes just flat-out shooting and killing civillians that try to escape, because that's their only form of defense. Sick and twisted, isn't it?


Yeah, but Hezbollah hides its weapons in caches that reside within civilian areas. So once again, if Israel is warning civilians where they may hit, aren't they also warning Hezbollah and giving them some time to remove those weapons from those caches?

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by Vong
It's so convenient for you to jump to conclusions and regard eveything that only Israel says and/or not believing a thing Hezbollah or Lebanon states. If you believe that Hezbollah is only claiming a few deaths among their members for sympathy purposes in a political maneuver, Israel has just as much a reason to do the same as well.

This war has become a propoganda machine. Both sides are sending appeals over the airwaves to gain support. The lines are being drawn and the only ones suffering are the civilians caught in the middle of the crossfire. Obviously we are both receiving different information on the issue. But that is war for you.
Israel has no need to "appeal" to anybody. For years the world has opposed Israel's actions, and the only way we managed to make any progress around here was ignoring the world's criticisms and remaining headstrong. What makes this situation any different? Israel isn't trying to prove anything to anyone. Hezbollah is. Hezbollah's entire strategy is based on misconception, propoganda, lies and deceit. Thus is a terrorist organization, and this really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. The same goes for the Palestinian Authority, who has a long history of lies, staging various media events (such as the recently staged attack on a beach that was supposedly perpetrated by the Israeli navy but which turned out to have been a bomb fired by Palestinian terrorists, or the UN ambulance incident which turned out to be false, or the various staged funerals Palestinian terrorist organizations staged... the list goes on).

By the way, in my original statement, the reporter got his information from both Hezbollah and the Lebonese government officials.
Again, I don't see why these people should be trusted. And especially considering that a few Lebanese government officials are Shi'ite Hezbollah sympathizers, and who knows who this reporter spoke to.

This is the conundrum that I feel is ripping apart the Middle East. Diplomacy would work far greater than military action. Most conflicts can be solved easily if people would be willing to talk. The fact that the people in the Middle East are a bunch of ignorant, stuck-up, superstitious, land-whoring assholes makes diplomacy look like a snowball in hell; it'll never happen.
Diplomacy has already failed to work countless times before. Shall we recall the Oslo Accords, peace agreements to which the Palestinian Authority and terrorist organizations, ever since they were signed in 1993, have so conveniently ignored at every chance they get? And let us also not forget UN Security Council resolution 1559, signed in 2004, which called for the disbandment of Hezbollah and other Lebanese militia/terrorist organizations. Obviously, this resolution was not put into action, and had it been, we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. These examples along with many more are proof that these terrorist organizations CAN NOT BE NEGOTIATED WITH. Diplomacy is an imposibility for them, because it is 100% against their interests. Willing to talk? Why should anyone be willing to talk to terrorists who will stop at nothing to harm your civillians? The only result of such talks would be giving Hezbollah a message that they are winning.

Sure I get the point of all of this. It's a continual battle of the babies of "he started it". Unless someone steps up and says, "That's enough", their will be continual and neverending battles to be fought. You might think that the "trigger" to all of this was the abduction of two soldiers. But like so many people before you, you are missing the greater picture and not going farther back to what started all of this. There are reasons to all situations, the problem is finding how far back it actually goes. And as I said before in another post, all of this can easily be traced back to when the Jews thrust themselves onto the land and claimed it to be theirs.
]Well, now we're getting into history of the region. Jews did not "thrust themselves onto the land". Immigration was a slow and gradual process that began in the late 19th century and continued right up to the 1930's, when the British Mandate implemented various laws banning Jewish immigration. Note that the British Mandate was only instated in 1920, and that the ruling party prior to the mandate, the Arab Ottoman empire, had absolutely no problem with Jewish immigration. On the contrary - The Jewish immigrants developed the country, brought technological advancements in the fields of agriculture, government and infrastructure, and started making something out of a land that, up until the Jewish immigration, was a barren wasteland scarcely inhabited by primitive fishing and agricultural communities. After escalating anti-semetic violence towards Jews in Europe, it became apparent to them that they could not stay, and what better place to go than a place in which a Jewish infrastructure was already present, namely, the land of Israel. I'm not going to feed you with all sorts of "the land is rightfully ours since the days of the Bible" bullshit, because frankly, I don't see that as a logical claim. What I will say, though, is that Jewish ownership of the area was a circumstance of over half a century of developing the country both technologically and physically, increasing the demographic and laying down the foundations for a future sovereign government. By 1947, was there really any other logical option regarding the foundation of the Jewish state of Israel?

Also, let me now ask you a question of logic: How exactly is Jewish presence in the area any form of threat towards the Lebanese-based Hezbollah? Did us Jews claim Lebanon as our land? No, we took that patch of desert to the south of Lebanon. And more indirectly... what have Israel done to offend Iran? Have we founded a Jewish state on the land of Iran? Not that I know of.

Even if somehow Hezbollah is destroyed, do you really think all the bloodshed will end? Even if the soldiers were rescued, do you really think Israel will stop its advance? Or if Hezbollah will stop attacking North Israel?
Yes, most definitely. Israel has absolutely nothing to gain by continuing its offensive against Hezbollah and Lebanon, ESPECIALLY if Hezbollah are destroyed. And there is no doubt in my mind that, as a result of international pressure if not simple logic, Israel will immediately cease the offensive the MOMENT the two soldiers' safe return is negotiated and Hezbollah will stop firing rockets at the towns in northern Israel.

And by the way, its from my understanding of history that the PLO used Lebanon as an area to launch missles into Israel. This was the cause of Israel's first invasion into Lebanon, was it not? Somehow I doubt its been Hezbollah firing rockets for the past 20 years in south Lebanon the entire time. Unless you are able to identify who fired each rocket into Israel, the ones who stand to gain from each missle hitting targets at Israel would be the PLO, and now Hamas, who publicly vows for the extermination of Israel.
First of all, Hezbollah HAVE been firing rockets for the past 20 years onto the northern towns of Israel. The intensity of the rocket attacks has never been as strong as it is now since operation Grapes of Wrath that was executed in 1996, and the range of the missiles has NEVER been as far south as Haifa and Nazareth, but throughout the years of 1982-2006 rocket fire on the northern towns has pretty much been non-stop. From the Israeli retreat from Lebanon and up until now it was temporarily halted, and now we see the reason - Hezbollah were building up an arsenal for an offensive of this magnitute.

I have heard reports that Israel intends to place a military presence in south Lebanon to create the buffer zone that once existed that gave Israel some measure of peace for 20 years.
These reports are false. Save for a few skirmishes into villages very near the border, the Israeli ground forces have stayed out of the conflict so far and are precedented to stay out of the conflict until it ends. Under no circumstances is there a plan to place an Israeli presence in southern Lebanon. The plan is to place Lebanese military presence in south Lebanon to create a buffer zone, in accordance with the UN Security Council resolution 1559. Recently, there have also been talks of forming an international military task forse that will occupy this buffer zone in order to ensure the application of resolution 1559. I'll say it again: Israel will NOT BE PLACING ANY KIND OF MILITARY PRESENCE IN SOUTH LEBANON, be it temporary or permanent, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES.

Once again, though, you are claiming that Hezbollah is the only aggressor, when I believe it was Israel that invaded their country in 1982, and Hezbollah was created in response to Israel's prescence. The group was created to defend Lebanon against Israel. So if any "direct act of war and aggression" was perpetrated here, it was Israel 20 years ago and now everything that is happening to this day is a regretable bite in the ass from the past.
Let's re-cap the events according to your break-down of them, and apply simple logic to the outcome. Israel unjustly invades Lebanon in 1982 - and I agree, the invasion was unnecessary. Hezbollah is formed as a resistance force against the Israeli forces. In the year 2000, Hezbollah and Lebanon finally get what they wanted and Israel rightfully retreats from the region. The two sides are EVEN. Hezbollah gets what they wanted, Israel retreats, never to bother Lebanon again. I'll repeat, Hezbollah have already achieved what they set out to achieve in the year 2000 with Israel's retreat. So how do you explain the abduction of the soldiers now, in 2006, EXCEPT as a blatant and direct act of war and aggression? Are you justifying Hezbollah's kidnapping and attacks as "revenge" for Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982? Because in that case, I REALLY don't understand your logic, as your entire arguement is based on criticizing Israel for attacking Lebanon as an "act of revenge" against Hezbollah's kidnapping of the soldiers. I certainly hope that such hypocrisy is not the case.

Sure Israel can say what they can to the Lebonese people to leave their homes, but can Israel gurantee their safety? Since I doubt they can, do you really think these people are going to take the risk of leaving their homes and lives and hopefully survive the trip to some remote place? But hey! Israel is at least giving them warnings. I guess that leaves them guiltless when it comes to murdering innocent people, eh?
As painful as it is for me to say this, it most certainly does. Israel are not the police force of Lebanon, nor are they responsible for ensuring the safety of Lebanese civillians. It is the job of the Lebanese government to ensure the safety of their civillians. The fact that the Lebanese government isn't doing a thing to help the situation just shows what a fucked up situation it is. Because the truth is, the Lebanese government secretly WANT Israel to annihilate Hezbollah, simply because they don't have the balls or the power to take the responsibility into their own hands. It has been reported that the Lebanese prime minister made a phone call to the Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert, urging him to continue the offensive against Hezbollah. The country of Lebanon has been split in two for decades now, and this is just another example in their ongoing civil war between the Shi'ite Muslim camp and the Suni Muslims, Christian and Druze camp.

There is no such thing as "tit for tat" when it comes to people's lives. Just because innocent people are killed in one situation, doesn't mean its justified to lower yourselves down to their level and do the same. You are only inflaming the situation and making it a whole lot worse. Though I find it interesting and cute how you are able to make victims out of the soldiers and not out of the civilians killed by Israeli missles.
Again, Israel is not targeting innocent people as revenge or compensation for Hezbollah targeting Israeli citizens. Once again you seem to stick with this opinion that Israel's offensive is against innocent Lebanese people, and while it is convenient to think so cnosidering the truly distressing high number of civillian casualties, the truth is far from it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Israel is targeting Hezbollah tactical targets ONLY. The fact that Hezbollah make camp in civillian areas and use apartments as headquarters and weapons stashes is a brutal tactic they use to put civillians in harm's way as protection - basically, they use these civillians as a human sheild. It's an inhumane and disgusting military strategy if I ever saw one, but that's the case, unfortunately, and we just have to deal wtih it. The fact that the Lebanese government is doing nothing to help, and the fact that Hezbollah are seemingly INTENTIONALLY keeping civillians in harm's way are merely more elements in the mix that cause these unfortunately high number of civillian casualties.

Originally posted by electriclite
Yeah, but Hezbollah hides its weapons in caches that reside within civilian areas. So once again, if Israel is warning civilians where they may hit, aren't they also warning Hezbollah and giving them some time to remove those weapons from those caches?
Firstly, Israel would notice if Hezbollah try to remove the weapons from their caches, and the transports removing the weapons would be targeted and destroyed, as has been done many times before in this operation, including a line of trucks en route from Syria that were attacked (and multiple explosions verified that they were indeed carrying weapons) and a pair of trucks caught driving through Beirut that were targeted and destroyed. Secondly, we're talking heavy duty weapon caches with hundreds of rockets, perhaps more, in each one. Hezbollah can't just pick them all up and go - transportation of these weapons is a time-consuming and complex endeavor.

[Vong]

I'll say it again: Israel will NOT BE PLACING ANY KIND OF MILITARY PRESENCE IN SOUTH LEBANON, be it temporary or permanent, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES.


Are you so sure (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060719/mideast_crisis_main_060720/20060720?hub=TopStories)?

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by Vong
Are you so sure (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060719/mideast_crisis_main_060720/20060720?hub=TopStories)?
Yes, I'm so sure (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1150886039295&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull):

Notwithstanding the call-ups of reservists, the IDF is determined to avoid a major ground offensive at almost all cost, assessing that the casualties of such an offensive would be extremely high, in part as a consequence of the vast amounts of explosive devices planted by Hizbullah in the northern border area.

Instead, the IDF is continuing to rely overwhelmingly on air power, with the aim to clear by Saturday all vestiges of Hizbullah infrastructure from a buffer zone one kilometer deep along the entire border. Anyone who entered that zone would be doing so at risk of his life.

A quote from Israeli minister of defense Amir Perez, from his tour of the northern towns earlier today:

"We have no intention of conquering Lebanon, but if we will have to act in order to complete our tasks and reach a victory we will do it without thinking twice."

The clearing of the area in south Lebanon is in preparation for extensive air strikes in the area. And even if ground forces enter Lebanon, which I admit is likely (they have been performing small ground skirmishes over the past few days), I'll repeat what I wrote in my last message: Israel will NOT BE PLACING ANY KIND OF MILITARY PRESENCE IN SOUTH LEBANON, be it temporary or permanent, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES. This does not include military ground operations, which probably WILL happen - I am merely referring to your claims that Israel plans to invade Lebanon and place a military force there to serve as a buffer zone. THIS will not happen.

[The Young Son]

Originally posted by Ki'esha Foxx
let me say this: since when has Beirut been a top tourist spot? Has Beirut ever had peace that lasted for more than six months? And yes, I do feel truly, deeply sorry for the citizens of Lebanon and Israel who are stuck there, especially the children, and I hope for the best for all of them. But those who were on vacation there need a head exam. There's always been fighting in that part of the world for no better reason than those governments like drama and have nothing better to do, so why would you choose to vacation there for any amount of time?
My boss was born in Lebanon, but moved to Australia not long after. His niece and her husband and two children went over there for trip and are now stuck. You say anyone who goes over needs to have their head examined. These people went over because it is where their family originally came from. They wanted to explore their family heritage.

You say that there has always been fighting, which is true, but the fighting has always been restricted to certain ares and it may sound insane to say this, but the fighting has alwqays been "civilized" in the sense that innocent people were always warned about where the fighting was to take place. Instead, this time around, Israel has taken to bombing the living fuck out of everything, not just Lebonese government targets, but power stations, water stations and the Gaza strip.

Maybe this will put your argument about "vacationing" in perspective.

[Monotreme]

Again: Water and power stations are bombed to cut off the supply to Hezbollah. Lebanese army targets are bombed because they are helping Hezbollah. The Lebanese army is split, and the Shi'ite commanders serving in it are helping Hezbollah, against the interest of their parent government.

Targets in Gaza strip are being bombed because there is also terrorism coming out of there, in the form of the Hamas terrorist leadership. Just a couple of days ago a suicide bomber was caught and arrested in the Tel-Aviv area, and they continue to fire Kasam rockets (smaller and shorter-range than Hezbollah rockets but still deadly) into the Israeli towns situated around the area of Gaza strip, namely Sderot but also other towns in the area.

[Vong]

You might think that I'm being pro-Hezbollah in this thread, but I assure you, I am not. I'm trying to level out playing field here, because you are obviously totally dominating the pro-Israeli side.

It scares me that you are creating justifications after another for the massive onslaught Israel is sending. It's obvious that you are bias to everything Israel does. Not that I can blame you, since you do live in the country. But I would like just for once for you to step out of the box and see what I'm seeing across the pond.

Any armed conflict brings casualities on both sides, it is inevitable. By justifying the war, you are justifying the deaths of hundreds of people on both sides of the border. And what's worse, you are continually claiming that the soldiers captured and dying are the victims, and the innocent civilians aren't. I see pictures of women and children burning on the streets, children clutching onto the hands of their deads, and bodies littering the rubble next to a mosque. Even after all of these preventable deaths, you are still gung-ho in this invasion. This is what I find truly disturbing. Disturbing enough to not continue debating in this thread about Israel.

I find it frustrating debating with someone who claims to know everything that is to come from this conflict. One thing I have learned in my years being educated in international relations, is to expect the expected. You may believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel will not invade Lebanon with a military presence. With all evidence pointing to the contrary, you are still defiant. I feel like I'm talking with someone in the Israeli military, and not a film student in Israel who has an opinion on the war. In times of war, things are not always certain. Even for those within the military.

Israel (and its former Palestine) are not inoccent or absolved from links to terrorism and severe military aggression. The are just as guilty of crimes of humanity than any other state in the Middle East.

These acts/events/groups come to mind:

The Ingrun (Lehi)
The Stern Gang
Occupation of the Chebaa Farms and Golan Heights in Lebanon and Syria
Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in 1995
The Mossad

With the ways things are going, I am sure that in the future the Middle East will be destroyed in an all out war between its states. The only question is when.

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by Vong
It scares me that you are creating justifications after another for the massive onslaught Israel is sending. It's obvious that you are bias to everything Israel does. Not that I can blame you, since you do live in the country. But I would like just for once for you to step out of the box and see what I'm seeing across the pond.

Any armed conflict brings casualities on both sides, it is inevitable. By justifying the war, you are justifying the deaths of hundreds of people on both sides of the border. And what's worse, you are continually claiming that the soldiers captured and dying are the victims, and the innocent civilians aren't. I see pictures of women and children burning on the streets, children clutching onto the hands of their deads, and bodies littering the rubble next to a mosque. Even after all of these preventable deaths, you are still gung-ho in this invasion. This is what I find truly disturbing. Disturbing enough to not continue debating in this thread about Israel.
I can definitely see why it may seem to you that justifying the war is like justifying the deaths of hundreds of people. But I'm afraid that this whole situation is one big contradiction. On the one hand, each day that passes that produces more refugees in Lebanon, more civillian casualties and more families torn apart on both sides is a burden for me to endure. Each day that passes that millions of Lebanese civillians lose their homes or simply leave everything trying to escape the onslaught, and millions of Israelis are forced to live in crowded, unsanitary bomb shelters pains me like nothing else. I wish this war would end right now, and I mean right this instant quite literally. But unfortunately, the contradiction created is that I see no way out of this war unless substantial damage is dealt to Hezbollah's military branch. If we end the war right now and begin negotiations, Hezbollah will see this as a sign of weakness and will consider the war a victory on their part. With no substantial damage done to their military force, what's to stop them from starting up trouble like this and executing another attack on Israel in another few years? And what's worse - if the release of Hezbollah prisoners is negotiated, there will be even more people added to their workforce of terrorism, merely adding to the threat.

You blame me for one-sidedness. But I see the same things in your posts. Amongst the mentions of women and children burning in the streets and bodies littering the rubble next to a mosque, I see no mention of the Israeli casualties. Do you know what I see? I see eight hard-working blue-collar employees of the train garage brutally murdered in cold blood on a casual workday. I see a husband blown to pieces by a direct hit from a Hezbollah rocket right in front of his wife's eyes, as she stands at the entrance to the bomb shelter beckoning for him to come inside. I see two innocent Arab children from Nazareth playing in the street, also blown to smithereens before the eyes of their friends and parents.

I also don't see how you can say that these casualties were preventable. You even said yourself that in a conflict, casualties are inevitable. That the casualties are unfortunate, tragic and horrifying I don't disagree with you - quite on the contrary, I think that the number of casualties on the Lebanese side is an atrocious sign of just how bad the situation is. But the blame for their deaths should be put on Hezbollah, and not the IDF. It is Hezbollah that places strategic and tactical military targets in the midst of civillian areas or in civillian buildings, hospitals, schools, and other such structure. It is the Hezbollah that uses empty apartments in civillian-filled apartment buildings as hide-outs and rocket caches. It is Hezbollah that uses civillian structures as base camps. It is Hezbollah that use the Lebanese people as a human shield to protect themselves from any attacks. I know that Israel is the direct perpetrator of these deaths, and it disgusts me as much as it does you - but I honestly think that Hezbollah is equally to blame for the astronomical number of Lebanese casualties in this conflict.

You may believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Israel will not invade Lebanon with a military presence. With all evidence pointing to the contrary, you are still defiant.
I don't see how you can say that all evidence points to the contrary. What is becoming very possible is a large-scale ground offensive, but under no circumstances is Israel planning on remaining in Lebanon or keeping any sort of long-term or short-term "buffer" force in the region. We made that mistake in the '80s, I highly doubt that we will make that same mistake agian - and it IS a mistake. Also, since practically every Israeli official has made it clear and emphasized that there is NO plan to retain any sort of military presence in south Lebanon should be proof enough that such a long-term solution is out of the question.

Israel (and its former Palestine) are not inoccent or absolved from links to terrorism and severe military aggression. The are just as guilty of crimes of humanity than any other state in the Middle East.
It is this comment above all that daunts me. It frightens me to think that there are people in the world that actually think this way. How can you possibly compare a sovereign nation's right to defend itself to blatant attacks targeted towards civillians perpetrated by illegal terrorist organizations? True, the Lechi organization that you mentioned was essentially a Jewish terrorist organization that targeted civillians, but allow me to remind you that:
A) this organization predates the founding of Israel by a few years, and was active during World War II but disbanded in 1948
B) that all other authorities, groups and organizations within the Jewish-Israeli community, including the military organizations Hagana and Palmach, condemned Lechi's actions to no extent, and made special care to disassociate themselves with any of Lechi's actions.

I simply can't comprehend how you can compare Israeli military operations executed in order to ensure the protection and safety of civillians and targeting military and militant targets, to blatant terrorist attacks perpetrated by criminals out to destroy a country and harm its people in any way possible. It's this philosophy that allows these terrorists to win.

With the ways things are going, I am sure that in the future the Middle East will be destroyed in an all out war between its states. The only question is when.
I think this is a very unfair exaggeration. According to estimates, this operation will last three weeks tops, and considering that a week and a half have already passed, that doesn't leave much more time - this is without calculating the chance that the operation might be stopped in the middle by the intervention of external people, namely Condoleezza Rice's arrival to the region this Monday. Also, considering that all the Arab countries, led by Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia and EXCLUDING Syria and Iran have agreed upon a consensus regarding Arab interests including cooperation with the western world, I highly doubt that an all-scale war in the region will occur. The most that will happen is that Iran will open a direct offensive against Israel, in which case the countries of the world will surely intervine, and thus we will all get this World War III that everyone's been talking about. The only part of the region that will be destroyed, though, is Iran, as I see no reason for the Saudis or the Jordanians to take part in any of this.

[Monotreme]

Here's a great piece written by Bob Rosenschein from Answers.com for the Washington Post that pretty much sums up the Israeli standpoint in this conflict:

Dear friends,
Rarely do I put political pen to paper, but when David Ignatius of the
Washington Post asked me to contribute a post, I sat down and wrote the following piece. Feel free to link or share. The opinions are my own and do not represent Answers.com.
-- Bob



One Israeli's View

The great Yogi Berra once said, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

I am not a columnist - just an ordinary American citizen living in Israel - but I have gained some insight into both cultures, some might say mentalities. Here is what many Israelis are feeling nowadays.

The first point concerns some unwritten American values I grew up with:
Problems are solvable.
Good will is returned in kind.
In general, favor the underdog over the top dog (unless you're the
top dog).
If two sides are fighting, they must both have some justification.
Be reasonable; split the difference.
But what if you are living in a neighborhood where they are not quite as
reasonable as you? Where your attempts to reason and split the difference backfire? Or worse, where concession is laughed at as weakness.

The second point concerns Israel in particular. We are 6.6 million people, toughened but pragmatic. At 8,020 square miles, we have an area 25% smaller than Maryland. The difference is that, unlike America's vast power, with oceans and peaceful neighbors on all sides, the Jewish state is surrounded on several sides with people who actually want to kill us. Not subdue us - destroy our country.

It would be convenient to think that this must be because of something we did. But Hamas and Hezbollah say it out loud and crystal clear. The
"occupation" is the whole works. Their final solution is the total destruction of Israel. Iran, a member state of the UN, holds conferences
called "A World Without Israel."

This is the backdrop against which most civilized countries would have us turn the other cheek. As social writer Eric Hoffer once said, "We really do expect the Jews to be the only good Christians in the world."

To put things in perspective, imagine, if you can, that Arlington lobbed
1,000 shells at Georgetown. Or sent suicide bombers. How exactly would you react? Imagine that Mexico was calling for the destruction of the United States, backing it up with cross-border raids and missiles.

The third point is that Israel already withdrew from every last inch of
southern Lebanon and Gaza, as the international community demanded. But the provocations and terror - violence aimed intentionally against civilian targets - continued. This is why we entered this conflict. Enough is enough.

This is a horrible situation to be in, fighting Hezbollah behind its human
shields. But before bombing southern Lebanon and the Hezbollah
neighborhoods of Beirut, Israel dropped leaflets encouraging evacuation. Confronted with terrible choices, we are trying to fight while minimizing civilian casualties.

It was wishful thinking to hope that joining the government would make
Hamas and Hezbollah more responsible. Sometimes putting the bully in charge of the playground works, and sometimes it doesn't.

The operative emotion in Israel right now is sadness, sadness for what is being done to us, sadness for what we must do to defend ourselves. The missiles shot at Haifa landed a few miles from the research labs of Intel, IBM, Microsoft and Google. Israelis would much rather continue working on desalination, stroke treatment, and alternative fuels (see
www.israel21c.org). We would rather that our adversaries developed their own economies pragmatically.

We hate this conflict, but we will not commit suicide. As Golda Meir said, "We will have peace when our enemies love their children more than they hate ours."

My father was a survivor of Auschwitz and Buchenwald, was the most
optimistic person I ever knew, but he once taught me, "Above all else, when someone threatens to kill you or your loved ones - just believe him!"

The lesson for America is simple. Do not hide from international
responsibility. Do not assume the oceans offer protection. Iran is behind
Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, and, of course, the insurgents in Iraq. If Iran
gets nuclear bombs, do you want to bet they won't sponsor a radical Islamic group to eradicate American cities?

You want to know what Israelis are thinking? Theory and practice are
intertwined. We are on the front line, but we will show patience and
strength. That's why 89% of Israelis, Left, Right and Center, support the
army right now. A mere 61 years and 10 weeks after V-E day, we know that evil and blind hatred exist. And that they can be beaten.

-- Bob Rosenschein is CEO of Answers.com (NASD:ANSW); he can be reached at rrosenschein at gmail.com; this piece reflects his own views
Posted by: Bob Rosenschein, Jerusalem, Israel | July 19, 2006 12:09 PM