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someguy
07-25-2006, 10:27 PM
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/15113896.htm

Scouts will fight for use of building
The mayor says the local council must change its policy on gays, pay market rent, or vacate.

By Tina Moore
Inquirer Staff Writer

The Boy Scouts of America will fight to stay in the city-owned building they have occupied since 1928, saying the City of Philadelphia has no right to force them to change their policy barring gay members.

"The scouts intend to stand up for their constitutional rights," said Robert Bork Jr., a spokesman for the national organization, which has a youth membership of about 2.9 million.
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"The policy [against gays] is not going anywhere," Bork added.

Late last week, Mayor Street called for the local Cradle of Liberty Council to denounce the national policy, pay fair-market-value rent, or vacate the stately building it occupies at 22d and Winter Streets, near the Benjamin Franklin Parkway.

Yesterday, the Fairmount Park Commission - which owns the property - voted to back the city's decision.

While the national organization indicated it would challenge the decision, the local council said it was still weighing its legal options.

The Cradle of Liberty Council serves 87,000 members in Philadelphia, Montgomery and Delaware Counties and is the third-largest in the country.

The council met with City Solicitor Romulo L. Diaz Jr. and other city officials in 2005 and agreed to adopt an antidiscrimination policy in compliance with the City Charter, according to a letter Diaz wrote to the council at the time.

Jeff Jubelirer, a Cradle of Liberty Council spokesman, said he thought the two sides had an agreement. The council posted a nondiscrimination policy on its Web site but did not mention gays.

"As the most diverse youth serving organization in our service area, we are committed to this mission and we oppose any form of unlawful discrimination," the statement reads.

The problem with the statement, Diaz said yesterday, is that it is not clear. He said unlawful discrimination was open to interpretation. The Supreme Court had ruled that the scouts could lawfully discriminate.

On Thursday, Diaz wrote another letter to the Cradle of Liberty Council. This one outlined the city's demands: change the policy, pay rent, or get out.

"What has happened between June 2005 and July 2006 to change what was an agreement?" Jubelirer asked. "They blindsided us."

"They may discriminate if they choose to do so," Diaz said yesterday. "But not with the city subsidy of free rent."

Diaz said he had resisted setting a deadline on the eviction.

"But frankly, I would like to hear from the local scouting council: Do they discriminate? Do they intend to continue discriminating against openly gay scouts?... The ball is in their court."

The national organization, Boy Scouts of America, has a strict policy forbidding homosexuals from being scouts or leaders. The policy was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 and affirmed by the national council in 2002.

The debate over the national policy in Philadelphia began in 2003 when the local council voted to adopt a nondiscrimination policy regarding homosexuals - but then weeks later ousted an 18-year-old South Philadelphia scout who publicly acknowledged he was gay.

Then-City Solicitor Nelson Diaz determined that the scouts' policy of banning gays violated the city's fair-practices ordinance. That law forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation, religion, race, color or other classifications.

Romulo Diaz said that after the June 15, 2005, letter, his office reached out to the council repeatedly for clarification on whether the scouts intended to stop discriminating against gays.

"I asked for clarification that in fact that was their intention," Romulo Diaz said, adding that "essentially, we've been met by silence."

He said the policy the council posted on its Web site as part of the agreement with the city was "ambiguous."

Larry Ceisler, who works with Jubelirer, said the city had approved the language in the online statement.

"The city handed us that verbiage after the Supreme Court decision and said, 'Adopt this,' and we did," Ceisler sad.

Other cities have tried to circumvent the national policy.

"Several of the big cities have done the same dance because they know how stupid this policy is," said Evan Wolfson, the New York lawyer who represented an assistant scoutmaster whose discrimination case went to the Supreme Court and led to the 2000 decision.

Wolfson said he believed there were scout leaders who wanted to go against the policy but felt they had no choice.

"I'm certainly willing to believe that the leaders in Philadelphia may not want to discriminate," he said. "But they have no authority to stop discriminating."

That point was reaffirmed by Bork, the scouts' national spokesman.

"Every scout council follows national policies," he said.

Bork said Philadelphia rents space to more than 75 community organizations with $1 leases, including 14 other youth organizations and several religious groups. Bork said the city does not try to tell those organizations to change their policies.

Street spokesman Joe Grace said last night that he was unable to confirm the figures.

The city is in jeopardy of losing federal funding if it evicts the Boy Scouts, Bork said.

The federal Support Our Scouts Act of 2005 allows the Department of Housing and Urban Development to deny funds to any state or local government that discriminates against or denies Boy Scouts access to facilities equal to those provided to other groups. The city received more than $62 million in HUD funds last year.

"The city has put these funds at risk," Bork said, "as a result of its discriminatory action against Boy Scouts."

I say good for Philadelphia. The Boy Scouts have a very discriminatory policy and it's wrong to let a group that won't let people in because of 'religious' or sexual preference (two things that have nothing to do with the boy scout program) have free rent which will come out of the city and taxpayer's pockets. I hope that Philadelphia wins this, but they most likely won't because the Supreme Court already supports the Scouts.

Criminal Rock
07-25-2006, 11:11 PM
Seriously though, as a kid, I probably wouldn’t know what to do or what to think if my scout master told us that he “liked” guys, it would be too awkward... so i see where a lot of people are coming from. Still though, treating every gay person like they’re pedophiles is just silly and narrow-minded.

Jon Lyrik
07-25-2006, 11:45 PM
Why the fuck are taxpayer dollars going into the Boy Scouts?

someguy
07-25-2006, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
Seriously though, as a kid, I probably wouldn’t know what to do or what to think if my scout master told us that he “liked” guys, it would be too awkward.

I don't know why a scout master's sexual preference would be brought up at all though, so I don't see why it would be a problem.

By the way, the Boy Scout group is owned by the Mormon church I think, I forget if it's Mormon or Protestant. When they took over the scout group they started discriminating against gays and atheists much more, and I just hope that the religious stuff won't be dragged into it all. That would open an ugly can of worms.

electriclite
07-26-2006, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
Seriously though, as a kid, I probably wouldn’t know what to do or what to think if my scout master told us that he “liked” guys, it would be too awkward... so i see where a lot of people are coming from. Still though, treating every gay person like they’re pedophiles is just silly and narrow-minded.


But it would be questionable if a straight scout master started talking about his relationship with his wife/girlfriend? In all good taste scout masters shouldn't be sharing their sexual preferences/sex lives with their charges, so there's no reason to discriminate....but of course there is and its called "The Moral Icks".

Criminal Rock
07-26-2006, 12:25 AM
Yo, peep’s… I never said I agreed with them, only that I understand where they’re coming from. I actually disagree with their no gay policies.

The policy in itself is gay, therefore making them all hypocrites.

electriclite
07-26-2006, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
Yo, peep’s… I never said I agreed with them, only that I understand where they’re coming from. I actually disagree with their no gay policies.

The policy in itself is gay, therefore making them all hypocrites.


I got what you meant, just taking your point a step further.

Chill and have some Coco Puffs ;)

bigred760
07-26-2006, 10:34 AM
I say good for the City of Philadelphia. Sexual orientation should not be something on an application to get into the Boy Scouts. It's an admirable group, to be sure, but it's got a long way to go as far as tolerance is concerned. Hopefully, this is a step in the right direction.

Brando @$$ Fat
07-26-2006, 11:10 AM
They're not barring gays from the Boy Scouts because they're afraid that the kids are going to be raped, but because the people who run the Boy Scouts of America are absolutely insanely far to the right, not that it's wrong to be on the right, but these guys are too far out there. Their President said something along the lines of kids not believing in God not belonging in their organization.

Criminal Rock
07-26-2006, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by electriclite
I got what you meant, just taking your point a step further.

Chill and have some Coco Puffs ;)

Coco puffs are for queers... and fags.

And brando: half of the kids in my group were from Atheist families when I was a scout, so I would only assume that most of them either didn’t believe, or didn't care about god. If the protestant/president/scout guy did say that, he obviously didn’t care enough to follow through with his beliefs, or he just didn’t say it... ;)

The Postmaster General
07-26-2006, 06:53 PM
If it can happen to Canteen Boy, it can happen to any of them.

I thought the BSOA already allowed gays - must have never finished that article. My neighbor was a scout leader and I seriously think was the basis for Big Gay Al. This was late-80s. So much for progress.

someguy
07-26-2006, 06:54 PM
The atheism thing is half and half really. On Penn and Teller's Bullshit they e-mailed a bunch of different scout groups posing as parents asking if their atheist son can join. Some didn't care and said it's fine, while others said no because of the atheist belief.

ilovemovies
07-27-2006, 02:07 AM
That's funny because I have never been a particularly religious or spiritual person but I use to be in the Boy Scouts a long time ago.