Religious demonstration for peace

[Monotreme]

I will make no comments, other than that these photos were taken from a Muslim "religious demonstration for peace" march in London, England. Take what you want from these photos:

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1375/pic04238ta2.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/246/pic08003jx7.jpg

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/5027/pic20876sr2.jpg

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/1376/pic21750ch4.jpg

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/2818/pic23938ac8.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7674/pic27448xu7.jpg

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/5711/pic28489hj7.jpg

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1012/pic29682qo6.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9307/pic30904lb6.jpg

[therealjohng]

Wait, that was a demonstration for peace?

[bigred760]

Yeah . . . those signs and statements are real powerful coming from people who are covering their faces.

Islam is a peaceful religion; therefore I don't think the majority of those who follow Islam share the same views as these "extremists."

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by bigred760
Islam is a peaceful religion; therefore I don't think the majority of those who follow Islam share the same views as these "extremists."

Yeah. Nutcases come from all religons, Islam isn't any different. The great majority of muslims are moderate, and don't embrace fuckwads like these any more than we do.

[QUENTIN]

It's douchebags like this that make neo-conservatives seem for a moment like they have a point. Extremism and calls for violence from anyone is reprehensible, I just hope people realize this is a small minority of crazies and not a general consensus.

[electriclite]

Um, I know I'm not mistaken, but those pictures were taken during the protest over the Danish Mohammed cartoon.

You were being sarcastic I'm guessing.

[Lynn7]

This may not be the majority but the ones who hold the power are the ones who control the military. Just ask the people of China and North Korea and the old USSR. The thing that bothers me is when they do polls on the streets of any of the countries of the Middle East, the people overwhelmingly are against Israel and of course the US. So even if most Muslims do not act aggressively, it does not seem like they will be right there supporting our right to life.

And Europe thinks that they are safe because they try to pacify the terrorists with words but they will be targetted by the terrorists. The terrorists kill their own people, after all so why would they care about Europeans?

[echo_bravo]

Sighs


I wonder when the rest of the world will realize we are at war with fascist Islamics?

Cute posters though muslims:rolleyes:

[Vong]

I fail to see the purpose of this post.
You are commenting on a protest that happened 6 months ago. You aren't breaking any news to us since this happened so long ago, so what is your reason for posting this? Are you trying to relate that protest to today's current affairs in the Middle East? Are you just posting this to show how fucked up fundamentalist Islam is? Are you just posting this to bash the Islamic faith?

Don't be like JohnTheHenchman. Put some effort into your posts and give reasons to why you are posting this.

[Lynn7]

The pictures might be from 6 months ago but the sentiments are the same. Have you heard how the leader of Iran says that Israel should be destroyed? No one seems to be arguing about this statement yet they are all in an uproar about Mel Gibson's drunken comments. It should be the Iranian leader's statement that is on the front page of every paper. That is a very extremee statement. He wants to wipe out an ENTIRE country! all those people! And the rest of us will be next no doubt about it. And who will stand up for us? The other countries have militaries that are pretty weak when all is said and done. If the US is weakened then the entire world is weakened. These posters' sentiments are real and they should be on the front pages of every paper, the subject of every talk show.

[echo_bravo]

Are you trying to relate that protest to today's current affairs in the Middle East? Are you just posting this to show how fucked up fundamentalist Islam is?

I think that is CLEARLY what he is doing. I also think he made his point by just showing the pictures too.

"A picture is worth a 1000 words"

[echo_bravo]

The pictures might be from 6 months ago but the sentiments are the same. Have you heard how the leader of Iran says that Israel should be destroyed? No one seems to be arguing about this statement yet they are all in an uproar about Mel Gibson's drunken comments. It should be the Iranian leader's statement that is on the front page of every paper. That is a very extremee statement. He wants to wipe out an ENTIRE country! all those people! And the rest of us will be next no doubt about it. And who will stand up for us? The other countries have militaries that are pretty weak when all is said and done. If the US is weakened then the entire world is weakened. These posters' sentiments are real and they should be on the front pages of every paper, the subject of every talk show.

Now now Lynn, I think we should be much more tolerant to our Muslim "friends":D

[Jon Lyrik]

That statement DID cause an uproar.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Uh oh, I guess it's a good thing that my picture of Muhammad getting fucked in the ass by two giant Yugoslavian guys didn't get published.

[QUENTIN]

I will make no comment other than that these pictures are of American Christians protesting funerals, parades, and speeches.

http://phaedo.typepad.com/photos/crazy/godhates.jpg

http://www.p2pconsortium.com/uploads/post-73-1120099793_thumb.jpg

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/images/IMG200344534LO.jpg

http://mud.mm-a2.yimg.com/image/605297727

http://unrealitycheck.com/archives/0508/ieds.jpg

My only point is that radicalism is common to monotheistic religions. Islam and Christianity are both incredibly popular religions that claim more than a billion followers apiece. Unfortunately for the world, certain sections of these religions are radicalized and literally insane with zeal, not knowing their actions are wrong, and believing God grants them the right to kill people. Fortunately for the world, these people are in the minority of both religions, otherwise we'd all have been dead a long time ago.

Also, yes, these Muslims are overreacting to the Danish cartoon (though why did you post this now, as though it's a current topic and say it's at a peace rally?). Their problem is the same problem most religious people have, they try to force the treatment of something they consider a sin as a sin even when its done by someone who does not share their beliefs. Certain types of Christians try to stop abortions, bomb family planning clinics, beat up homosexuals, and restrict what's shown in American art and entertainment. These same type of Muslims try to force women to wear veils, bomb embassies of countries they disagree with, stone homosexuals, and restrict what's shown in Middle Eastern art and entertainment. I think about Muslims overreacting with threats of violence to the cartoon depiction of Mohammed and think of all the Catholics who sent death threats to Kevin Smith after Dogma and the bodyguards Martin Scorsese had to hire after his devout Catholic self made a respectful, spiritually-imbued film depicting Jesus (he didn't even mock him!). Religious zealotry is what is highly dangerous, not the particular religions.

[Criminal Rock]

I agree 100% with the above.

Still though, I see a lot more aggressive and violent shit coming from the more extreme parts of the Islamic faith... I mean not to generalize the religion as being evil or wrong, because I don’t think it is, I just see a lot more Islamite’s (as a religious whole) wanting to kill us (as a people) then we do them, and there’s enough evidence in Israel alone to suggest that, at the least, a smaller part of the faith is willing to carry out that belief. And though it’s a fact that both religions talk the talk, I don’t see many Christians going into mosk’s and blowing themselves up… most of em’ just stand outside with there “god hates *whatever*” signs.

[echo_bravo]

Ditto Tai Mai Jew

The pictures that Quentin posted are of some little cult that goes around to soliders' funerals.

There is much much much more radical doings in the Islamic faith and it is a global problem.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by echo_bravo
Ditto Tai Mai Jew

The pictures that Quentin posted are of some little cult that goes around to soliders' funerals.

There is much much much more radical doings in the Islamic faith and it is a global problem.


Yeah...too bad most of the American public on some level agrees with that 'little cult' as far as spewing hate speech toward homosexuals, while those same Americans are repulsed by all things Islamic.

Fanatical zealots are scary and dangerous, regardless of the god they worship.



~darchangel~

[jeo4]

When did extemism, fanaticism and hate become religious tools? The group Quentin is showing in those pictures are a group of fanatics. And they have NOTHING to do with God. This is the best thing Quentin may have ever said:

"Religious zealotry is what is highly dangerous, not the particular religions."

I believe that. And it is rampant in every religion, particularly Islam and Christianity.

[echo_bravo]

Yeah...too bad most of the American public on some level agrees with that 'little cult' as far as spewing hate speech toward homosexuals

No they fucking dont

[Criminal Rock]

Originally posted by darchangel
Yeah...too bad most of the American public on some level agrees with that 'little cult' as far as spewing hate speech toward homosexuals, while those same Americans are repulsed by all things Islamic.
echo_bravo
No they fucking dont

don't worry echo, she's just joking... I hope.

[Jon Lyrik]

Sorry if this comes across as incoherent, I just woke up at 7:30 in the fucking evening.

Yeah, Quentin owned Monotreme's "zomg muzzies" argument for the most part, though the difference between WBC and Islamists is that there are more people with an Islamist mindset, which of course means more violent religious fundamentalists on their side (violence is the one difference with WBC, they'll engage in a street brawl here and there, yet they won't toss bombs, but there are some with their mindset that would). There are militant fundie-Judaists as well, but I don't know much about them.

Yeah...too bad most of the American public on some level agrees with that 'little cult' as far as spewing hate speech toward homosexuals, while those same Americans are repulsed by all things Islamic.

What? That's a really unfair statement. Maybe in isolated rural communities most people have that mindset, but most Americans are definitely not wasting their lives thinking about "the dirty queer menace". I won't argue that a sizable minority does, but MOST of America? Where do you live?

[EVILxxx]

The Islamic religion appears to be going through a 'Dark Ages' of sorts. Most Muslims are not radicalized like the ones posted above, but the radicals are the ones who scream the loudest and are heard the most. Very rarely does a leader in the Muslim community make public statements or lead rallies that are counter to Islamic Facists.

[Lynn7]

Go into any of the MILLIONS of churches in this country and you will hear the pastors and priests talking about loving your fellow man and giving generously to charities. Yes, most Christians churches do beleive that homosexuality and sex outside of marriage is not permissable for beleivers but I have never heard any reputable priests or pastors ever advocating beleivers to take negative actions against those who don't beleive as we do. Are there wolves among the sheep? Yep, just like Jesus warned there would be. How will we know who they are? He said we will know them by the fruit they produce. If someone is persecuting someone who is gay or having sex outside marriage then they are not practicing the teachings of Christ.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Go into any of the MILLIONS of churches in this country and you will hear the pastors and priests talking about loving your fellow man and giving generously to charities. Yes, most Christians churches do beleive that homosexuality and sex outside of marriage is not permissable for beleivers but I have never heard any reputable priests or pastors ever advocating beleivers to take negative actions against those who don't beleive as we do. Are there wolves among the sheep? Yep, just like Jesus warned there would be. How will we know who they are? He said we will know them by the fruit they produce. If someone is persecuting someone who is gay or having sex outside marriage then they are not practicing the teachings of Christ.

Then I want you in my back pocket when I take a trip to Capitoll Hill and tell Congress they can't deny homosexual people their civil rights by not legalizing gay marriage...maybe I'll take Jimmy Stewart with me too...might help my case. :D


~darchangel~

[electriclite]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
The Islamic religion appears to be going through a 'Dark Ages' of sorts. Most Muslims are not radicalized like the ones posted above, but the radicals are the ones who scream the loudest and are heard the most. Very rarely does a leader in the Muslim community make public statements or lead rallies that are counter to Islamic Facists.


I know I've said this before, but its very clear that the majority of the Arab world is run by corrupt monarchs. Check out VH-1's The Fabulous Life and see how many rich sheikhs are listed and how obscenely they spend their wealth on extravagent palaces, yachts, homes around the world and then look how their "subjects" live. How much do you wanna bet that the money it took to buy the marble floors that line a sheikh's ballroom, could be used to upgrade the education system of his entire country?

Fundamentalism allows these people to create an identity for themselves that can't be created through nationalism. These people have emigrated to foreign countrues to make better lives for themselves because their countries are too "poor" for them to do that in. How many of the 9-11 hijackers left their home countries and lived in Europe before coming to the US? Europe has a very evident disdain for Middle Eastern immigrants. It was either in Belgium or Germany that a political candidate based his platform on making it more difficult for middle eastern immigrants to achieve citizenship and find work. What happened?

Riots.

Remember France? They're also "disdainful" of middle easterners and african immigrants, and their immigration policy is pretty stringent. Its hard to become a citizen and they can deport anyone they want without reason, just because they want to. Guess who gets the brunt of that policy? And then guess what happened there?

So, your home country is moving at a snail's pace just to arrive at the 20th century, you're best bet at a better future is to attend school out of the country, the country your studying in has made it obvious they hate having your kind there and are making it difficult for you to find work and create a life there, but if you go home you know there'll be a definite limmit to what you want to achieve with your life, but if you stay in the foreign country everyday you suffer through other people trying to keep you from having citzenship and keeping a good job.

What do you have that you can control and that can not be taken from you?

Religion.

And the more trying your situation the more devout you become.

[Vong]

The Islamic religion appears to be going through a 'Dark Ages' of sorts.

When has the Islamic religion been out of a "Dark Ages"?
From as far back as the crusades to the 1960's of Sayyid Qutb the Islamic faith has had its ups and downs. But it has always butted heads with the Western world. The only difference between moderates and fundamentalists is the Western world's impact on their mindset. Western values of individualism is what provoked many Muslims to become moderate or come to the West. It was when the West started dominating countries like Egypt that the fundamentalists rose to push them away. Ayatollah Khomeini and Ayman al-Zawahiri both pushed the Islamic revolution and deepened the ridge between the West and the Middle East. What we see today is Islamic fundamentalism continuing its role against the West and maintaining the gap.

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by QUENTIN
My only point is that radicalism is common to monotheistic religions. Islam and Christianity are both incredibly popular religions that claim more than a billion followers apiece. Unfortunately for the world, certain sections of these religions are radicalized and literally insane with zeal, not knowing their actions are wrong, and believing God grants them the right to kill people. Fortunately for the world, these people are in the minority of both religions, otherwise we'd all have been dead a long time ago.
The difference is, as echo_bravo said, these radical Christians are, really, more of a cult. They are in no way the mainstream. But you look at Muslim nations, and Muslim communities in Europe especially but also in the far east and the United States, and you see that not only are these people a majority in some of them, but that they are even IN POWER, they are the governmental authority in some countries (Syria, Iran)! And that thought frightens me like nothing else. When these radical Christians take control in the U.S. or any other western country's government, then I'll say the same. But for now, that's not the situation, so don't call me racist, or Shirley, or anything like that.

[QUENTIN]

Originally posted by Monotreme
When these radical Christians take control in the U.S. or any other western country's government, then I'll say the same.


His name is George W. Bush, and I'm really, treally not being glib. He is a radical Christian in the same sense that the crazy Muslim leaders you speak of are radical Muslims and he was elected by the nearly 50% of the American people who agree with his Dark Ages beliefs. I also see someone like Lynn as no different than the average so-called "Islamofascist." I'm not comparing her to Osama Bin Laden or anyone that blows up a building or picks up a gun, but her belief system is exactly the same as the Muslims she fears and I'd find it comical if it weren't so terrifying.

A comment like: Originally posted by Lynn7

The Bible called it right. So, based on the premise that this Islamofascism is here to stay, how do you see the Christians being treated in all of this? They won't be mocked but will be targeted as surely as the Jews are being targetted. The forces we face are Satanic forces and there is no evolutionary scientest who is going to present the answers about this to anyone. People will have to make a choice eventually- to choose God or to join the Islamofacist movement. There won't be any in-between. I am willing to die to stay true to my God. What will you guys do if the Islamists come into world power which is what they aim to do? What will your choices be?
Scares the crap out of me. This sounds like the same recruitment technique they use in the Middle East to get young men to join fundamentalist schools. The fact that Lynn is white and we haven't ever seen a picture of her holding a sign expressing that belief means little to me.

Many Christians and Muslims believe the following:
My God is right, their God is wrong, they wish to force their religion and their values on me and my country, and are willing to kill me to do it. Though I have not done so yet, I am willing to kill or to die defending my beliefs against them. This war we are entering is THE Holy war, our God is fighting against The Great Satan of their God. The other people are zealots who don't care about killing innocent people, so it's okay to kill innocent people to stop them. All praise be to Jesus/Allah.


The only difference in the beliefs between the average radical Muslim and the average radical Christian is the noun they worship. They both scare me a whole lot. Radical Christians scare me a little more because I live in America, where there are far more Christians than Muslims, but radical Muslims do scare me as well, since they've attacked the country. That was my point, simply that radicalism is the problem, not the religion these people claim to believe. Zealots exist from every religion and are scary and dangerous from every religion. The Westboro baptist people are one particular small group, sure, but why don't you come with me to visit Kentucky and go to church? The seemingly average, nice, and polite individuals there believe the end of the world is coming and they have to stand up to the "forces of Islam" to preserve the world for Jesus's second coming. That's no different than these Muslims with signs in the street, except they're only a 3 hour drive from me.

Originally posted by Monotreme

But for now, that's not the situation, so don't call me racist, or Shirley, or anything like that.

I hope you don't think I was implying that, since I wasn't. From what I can tell from your posts here you're a pretty rational person. The fact is, you live in Israel. Does that make you perhaps a little more wary of Muslims extremists? Well yeah. Like I said, I'm more wary of Christian extremists right now because I live in America, so they're more of a direct threat to me. If you live in Israel, the Muslim extremists are gonna be much higher up on your radar, because they pose a far greater threat to you. As long as you recognize the difference between a Muslim and a radical Muslim, race's got nothing to do with it. As I said, radicalism is the problem, not race or religion...Shirley.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Monotreme
The difference is, as echo_bravo said, these radical Christians are, really, more of a cult. They are in no way the mainstream. But you look at Muslim nations, and Muslim communities in Europe especially but also in the far east and the United States, and you see that not only are these people a majority in some of them, but that they are even IN POWER, they are the governmental authority in some countries (Syria, Iran)! And that thought frightens me like nothing else. When these radical Christians take control in the U.S. or any other western country's government, then I'll say the same. But for now, that's not the situation, so don't call me racist, or Shirley, or anything like that.

There are roughly 50 muslims on those hate rally photos, from what I can see.

There are roughly 1.5 million muslims in England.

So that means we so far we have proof that at least 0.00001% of english muslims are extremists. That's hardly a "majority". Can you offer substantial proof that a considerable percentage of english muslims are fanatics? Because they seem pretty moderate to me.

There are 1.4 billion muslims in the world. Here are some democratic, predominantly muslim countries (The muslim population is anywhere from 80 to 99%.

Indonesia 223 million.
Bangladesh 141 million.
Pakistan 163 million.
Turkey 73 million.

I didn't mention smaller democratic muslim nations of which there are plenty. Too lazy to browse through all of them. But combining all of them you get around 100-200 million people.

And of course many countries have huge muslim populations, the biggest one is India with 170 million muslims. But plenty of democratic nations have muslim minorities ranging anywhere from 1% to 30%. Counting all these together, you end up with hundreds of millions of muslims.

In comparison here are the biggest totalitarian or semi-totalitarian muslim countries:

Iran 68 million.
Saudi-Arabia 28 million.
Morocco 31 million
Egypt (A democratic nation with obvious totalitarian tendencies. Althought often considered as the "good guy" of middle-east) 78 million

And yes, it is possible that I might have missed some countries in either camp. And yes, it is even possible that I might have submitted erroneous info here - Much info to handle. But my basic point still remains intact, even if there might be smaller mistakes.

Anyway… The point?

The point is that the great majority of world’s muslims live in DEMOCRATIC nations. They support democracy. Totalitarian muslim countries are a minority. So anyone who claims that muslims have a tendency towards totalitarian governments is plain wrong.

Also, the world’s largest muslim countries (Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan) are against the fundamentalist policies of Iran, and have embraced the western world (and USA) instead.

And before anyone starts saying that “Yeah, but all muslim countries follow the lead of Iran”, I’ll say BOLLOCKS.

These are democratic nations, and they prefer to stay that way. Muslims who have lived in democratic countries for years, for decades, are not willing to give up their rights to please whoever lunatic is in power in Iran.

And what was the point of my entire rant?

The point is that if you try to group the entire muslim world as freedom-hating-rughead-fanatics, you are being ignorant. You are ignoring facts, and believing random myths instead.

It’s an attitude not too far removed from racism, really. Even if it is not racism, it is certainly xenophobia.

There is a big difference between saying that you think that muslims are bad, as opposed to saying that FANATIC muslims are bad.

Just like there is a big difference between saying that christans are bad, as opposed to saying that FANATIC Christians are bad.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by QUENTIN
His name is George W. Bush, and I'm really, treally not being glib. He is a radical Christian in the same sense that the crazy Muslim leaders you speak of are radical Muslims and he was elected by the nearly 50% of the American people who agree with his Dark Ages beliefs.

Quentin there are many subtle differances between Bush and Crazy Muslim Leaders.
For example;
Bush: Gays shouldn't marry
Crazy Muslim leader: Gays should be executed

[echo_bravo]

The difference is, as echo_bravo said, these radical Christians are, really, more of a cult. They are in no way the mainstream. But you look at Muslim nations, and Muslim communities in Europe especially but also in the far east and the United States, and you see that not only are these people a majority in some of them, but that they are even IN POWER, they are the governmental authority in some countries (Syria, Iran)! And that thought frightens me like nothing else. When these radical Christians take control in the U.S. or any other western country's government, then I'll say the same. But for now, that's not the situation, so don't call me racist, or Shirley, or anything like that.

SPEAK ON IT MY NIGGA!!!! SPEAK ON IT!!!!

His name is George W. Bush, and I'm really, treally not being glib. He is a radical Christian in the same sense that the crazy Muslim leaders you speak of are radical Muslims and he was elected by the nearly 50% of the American people who agree with his Dark Ages beliefs.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
PLEASE STOP

[QUENTIN]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
Quentin there are many subtle differances between Bush and Crazy Muslim Leaders.
For example;
Bush: Gays shouldn't marry
Crazy Muslim leader: Gays should be executed

Executing homosexuals is not tolerable in this country. You're talking small scale, I'm talking large scale. Bush believes he was sent by God to fight a Holy war against Muslims and the Axis of Evil. He believes he is fighting for God against Satan. He believes he must go to Iraq, and stir up other shit in the Middle East, so that Israel will be protected and Jewish for when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to bring all the Christians to salvation and put all the Muslims and Jews and non-believers in hell. These beliefs profoundly affect his foreign policy. In the mean time, he'll be banning stem cell research, civil rights, a woman's right to choose her medical procedures, and a myriad of other things he somehow relates to Christianity. In addition to being in the pocket of Big Jesus, he's in the pocket of Big Business.

All you have to do is replace the nouns and you've got a Muslim extremist leader. Both men are willing to kill innocent members of the other man's religion to protect their country and God and both men firmly believe they are fighting pure evil and are themselves good sent from the Lord. Both the radical Muslims and the radical Christians are absolutely batshit crazy and both types of men scare the piss out of me because they're in power.


echo_bravo, if you can come up with a response, I may have something to say to you. I'm not speaking hyperbolically and I'm not a radical, this is the way extremist Muslims and sympathizers think and this is the way George W. Bush and his sympathizers (we have atleast one on the boards) think. If you see no threat and do not think its worrisome, I question your judgment.

[EVILxxx]

I think you are making Bush's mindset darker than it really is.

Bush believes he was sent by God to fight a Holy war against Muslims and the Axis of Evil.

Not against Muslims specifically, enemies of America. It turns out many of them are Muslims. And we aren't fighting a war against the Axis of Evil. North Korea and Iran are being dealt with diplomatically.

He believes he is fighting for God against Satan.

Never heard him call Muslims Satanic.

He believes he must go to Iraq, and stir up other shit in the Middle East, so that Israel will be protected and Jewish for when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to bring all the Christians to salvation and put all the Muslims and Jews and non-believers in hell.

I missed that press conferance. I guess that was also the policy of every other American president before Bush since the creation of Israel, seeing as it was they who first allowed the sale of defensive and offensive weaponry to them.

In addition to being in the pocket of Big Jesus, he's in the pocket of Big Business.

Sweet rhyme.

oth men are willing to kill innocent members of the other man's religion to protect their country and God and both men firmly believe they are fighting pure evil and are themselves good sent from the Lord. Both the radical Muslims and the radical Christians are absolutely batshit crazy and both types of men scare the piss out of me because they're in power.

Are you saying that if the high jackers belonged to a Christian terrorist organization that we would not have overthrown the government that supported them?

[Jon Lyrik]

Bush's mindset isn't dark at all. He isn't the one controlling things here. It's his buddy Cheney (read: also the Illuminati, the Stonecutters and the Freemasonists).

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by QUENTIN
His name is George W. Bush, and I'm really, treally not being glib. He is a radical Christian in the same sense that the crazy Muslim leaders you speak of are radical Muslims and he was elected by the nearly 50% of the American people who agree with his Dark Ages beliefs. I also see someone like Lynn as no different than the average so-called "Islamofascist." I'm not comparing her to Osama Bin Laden or anyone that blows up a building or picks up a gun, but her belief system is exactly the same as the Muslims she fears and I'd find it comical if it weren't so terrifying.

A comment like:
Scares the crap out of me. This sounds like the same recruitment technique they use in the Middle East to get young men to join fundamentalist schools. The fact that Lynn is white and we haven't ever seen a picture of her holding a sign expressing that belief means little to me.

Many Christians and Muslims believe the following:
My God is right, their God is wrong, they wish to force their religion and their values on me and my country, and are willing to kill me to do it. Though I have not done so yet, I am willing to kill or to die defending my beliefs against them. This war we are entering is THE Holy war, our God is fighting against The Great Satan of their God. The other people are zealots who don't care about killing innocent people, so it's okay to kill innocent people to stop them. All praise be to Jesus/Allah.


The only difference in the beliefs between the average radical Muslim and the average radical Christian is the noun they worship. They both scare me a whole lot. Radical Christians scare me a little more because I live in America, where there are far more Christians than Muslims, but radical Muslims do scare me as well, since they've attacked the country. That was my point, simply that radicalism is the problem, not the religion these people claim to believe. Zealots exist from every religion and are scary and dangerous from every religion. The Westboro baptist people are one particular small group, sure, but why don't you come with me to visit Kentucky and go to church? The seemingly average, nice, and polite individuals there believe the end of the world is coming and they have to stand up to the "forces of Islam" to preserve the world for Jesus's second coming. That's no different than these Muslims with signs in the street, except they're only a 3 hour drive from me.



I hope you don't think I was implying that, since I wasn't. From what I can tell from your posts here you're a pretty rational person. The fact is, you live in Israel. Does that make you perhaps a little more wary of Muslims extremists? Well yeah. Like I said, I'm more wary of Christian extremists right now because I live in America, so they're more of a direct threat to me. If you live in Israel, the Muslim extremists are gonna be much higher up on your radar, because they pose a far greater threat to you. As long as you recognize the difference between a Muslim and a radical Muslim, race's got nothing to do with it. As I said, radicalism is the problem, not race or religion...Shirley.

I said I am willing to be put to death for my God that is not the same as I think all people who are not of my faith should be executed. Also the Bible teaches that if people don't want to hear the message of Christ then we art to shake the dust off our feet and move to the next town. We are not instructed to force people to beleive what we do.

Of course we all think our God is the right one- we choose what makes sense to us and then we stand by our beleifs- this is no different than you choosing to beleive in the teachings of Darwin or of Michael Moore for that matter. We need to have the courage to stand by our convictions. In the Christain faith it is really no crazy thing to die for our faith because we happen to believe that this life is fragile and temporal and the next life is strong and eternal. We are told not to fear those who would kill the body but to fear those who would kill the soul.

[Vong]

How is it that every single post eventually becomes a debate about religion and god?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by QUENTIN
Executing homosexuals is not tolerable in this country. You're talking small scale, I'm talking large scale. Bush believes he was sent by God to fight a Holy war against Muslims and the Axis of Evil. He believes he is fighting for God against Satan. He believes he must go to Iraq, and stir up other shit in the Middle East, so that Israel will be protected and Jewish for when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to bring all the Christians to salvation and put all the Muslims and Jews and non-believers in hell. These beliefs profoundly affect his foreign policy. In the mean time, he'll be banning stem cell research, civil rights, a woman's right to choose her medical procedures, and a myriad of other things he somehow relates to Christianity. In addition to being in the pocket of Big Jesus, he's in the pocket of Big Business.

All you have to do is replace the nouns and you've got a Muslim extremist leader. Both men are willing to kill innocent members of the other man's religion to protect their country and God and both men firmly believe they are fighting pure evil and are themselves good sent from the Lord. Both the radical Muslims and the radical Christians are absolutely batshit crazy and both types of men scare the piss out of me because they're in power.


echo_bravo, if you can come up with a response, I may have something to say to you. I'm not speaking hyperbolically and I'm not a radical, this is the way extremist Muslims and sympathizers think and this is the way George W. Bush and his sympathizers (we have atleast one on the boards) think. If you see no threat and do not think its worrisome, I question your judgment.

bush never said he was sent by God to fight a holy war. He asked Hussein to abide by the terms of the agreement that he had signed at the end of the first Gulf War. He wouldn't abide by the terms and Bush held him accountable. Hezzbollah was supposed to abide by the terms of their agrrement to disarm in Lebanon and even though they had been watched by a UN group, they ammassed thousands of weapons- no one held them accountable and I do not hear anyone criticizing the UN for allowing the situation that exists now because of their inaction.

Bush has always shown great respect for the people of other religions. He said right after 9-11 that Muslims follow a religon of peace and that it was a small minrity of people who acted against us that day- this is not the picture you paint of him. Why not look up some actual quotes by him to see how small minded he is. And he always says that Israel is our friend and a good ally. I don't remember him saying anything about salvation. He is a Methodist- not exactly a radical form of Christianity.

He has not banned stem cell research. He is against using federal funds to support it. The research has been going on for years and has not been nearly as successful as adult stem cell research from everything I have heard. But what he is doing is respecting life. These embryos contain life. If implanted in a woman this embryo would become a boy or a girl, It should not be used like a piece of tissue from your cheek.

Bush has not done anything agaisnt civil rights. He is trying to move in the direction that Bill Cosby has been talking about- empowering Black people through education. All the other presidents have been addressing civil rights for years without addressing the importance of education and because of this Black people are lagging behind in education.Not because they don't have the ability but because the Cilvil rights leaders have been pusing an agenda of welfare to keep the people dependent upon them so they can stay in power. Jesse jackson has enriched himself because of his Civil Rights Agenda.

Is it really "radical" to want people to have their babies instead of killing them? Well since the procedure has only been legal since the early 70's and this was decided to be legal BEFORE ultrasounds came into use, I would say that the entire world has always been radical and it is ust in recent years that many have come to believe that a developing baby has no more worth than an extracted tooth. If it is radical for Bush to want the babies to be born then so be it. I am much prouder to stand with his principles than the principles of conveneince and expendibility.

Lastly, Bush has never wanted to kill innocents in the name of his religion. Our country does not hide behind human shields when we fire. We clean out the good people from areas before we attack.

Again Methodism is one of the tamest denominations of Christianity but I guess it raises Democratic funds to get the word out that Bush is a "radical" and nutty Christian. And I attend a conservative Baptist church and as I have said before, we don't talk about politics at all in church. We talk about the Bible and sing and pray- oooh- scary stuff! :D

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Vong
How is it that every single post eventually becomes a debate about religion and god?

Everything about politics is related to religion. All of our political beleifs are based on what we beleive spiritually. If you are a Christian Baptist then you will probably stand for the Republican platform. If you are a liberal Catholic you will probably be a Democrat. If you are an atheist you will most likely support the Democratic platform.

In the politics of the world, religion is behind all events, especially in present times. Muslims and Jews are not fighting as nationals but as religions. Just about anywhere in the world there are people who are engaing in religious wars. How about when the USSR banned people from worshipping a god? Does that mean that politics is separate from religion? What did they have to fear from religion so they would need to ban it? China does not allow people to worhip either right, or is it just that they don't allow Christianity? I'm not sure about this one. And the Muslims countries will not allow their people to choose to worship how they want to- converting to Christianity can mean death. And so religion and politics are firmly woven together. Our religion (or atheistic beliefs) will define our politcs.




so I went and checked about China and here is what I found, if anyone cares:

"Christian missionaries have been active in China since Roman Catholics belonging to the Jesuit order arrived in the early 17th century. Protestant missionaries first appeared in the early 19th century. All the Christian missionaries had difficulty converting the Chinese because Christianity was associated in the popular mind with Western imperialism. By 1949 there were only 3 or 4 million Christians in China, less than 1 percent of the total population. Islam came to China mainly from Central Asia, where it was practiced by many of the Turkic peoples. Today there are believed to be more than 4 million Chinese Muslims. One autonomous region, Ningxia Huizu, has been designated for Islamic adherents.

The Communists have discouraged religious practices, which they consider anti-socialist. Many temples and churches have been closed and their property taken. During the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution (or simply the Cultural Revolution), a mass movement that lasted officially from 1966 to 1977, conditions were especially difficult, and religious practitioners were persecuted. The situation eased after 1977. A number of Buddhist temples were allowed to reopen. Worship services among Christians were permitted once again, and it is believed that as many as 2 million Christians are practicing their faith in China. The Chinese government is cautious about all religious activity, especially if it happens to involve foreign people in any way. "

[Monotreme]

Originally posted by Vong
How is it that every single post eventually becomes a debate about religion and god?
Because, as I've stated before, organized religion is the root of all the problems this world has seen. Just look at pretty much every major human-caused event and tragedy since the fall of the Roman Empire. And since this thread discusses a problem, it's natural that it will also discuss the source of the problem.

Also, as I've stated before, most Muslim countries are the "good guys". Sure, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emerates, Jordan and others aren't exactly clean, western, democratic countries, but they all realise that ties with the western world are their only chance of survival and evolution, and so they struggle to keep these ties. But the fact of the matter is, the Shi'i axis of Iran-Syria-Hezbollah-Hamas (Sunis, actually, but they're brainwashed) are probably the most threatening and brooding force on earth. And what's worse - they ARE threatening, they ARE initiating, and they're certainly taking extreme action to get what they want. And that is the world. This has happened before, and has always been dealt with too late. Please, countries of the world, don't make the same mistake you made in WWII again. This totalitarian extremist fascist Muslim mindset must be destroyed, and fast. It's a threat to us all. And I really pity those who haven't realised it yet.

Also, allow me to express that I wasn't implying that a majority of the English Muslim population are fascist extremists. I was implying that in Shi'i-majority countries, this fascist mindset is the mainstream. And that's frightening. There is indeed a difference between Christian extremism and Muslim extremism. The difference is that the Muslim extremists are actually doing something, taking offensive action. These Christians can talk all they want. But until I see a Christian extremist-organized 9/11, London underground bombing, Madrid train bombing, or suicide bomber attacks in Israel and elsewhere... it's not an immediate issue, nor does it warrant a comparison.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Monotreme
Because, as I've stated before, organized religion is the root of all the problems this world has seen. Just look at pretty much every major human-caused event and tragedy since the fall of the Roman Empire. And since this thread discusses a problem, it's natural that it will also discuss the source of the problem.

Also, as I've stated before, most Muslim countries are the "good guys". Sure, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emerates, Jordan and others aren't exactly clean, western, democratic countries, but they all realise that ties with the western world are their only chance of survival and evolution, and so they struggle to keep these ties. But the fact of the matter is, the Shi'i axis of Iran-Syria-Hezbollah-Hamas (Sunis, actually, but they're brainwashed) are probably the most threatening and brooding force on earth. And what's worse - they ARE threatening, they ARE initiating, and they're certainly taking extreme action to get what they want. And that is the world. This has happened before, and has always been dealt with too late. Please, countries of the world, don't make the same mistake you made in WWII again. This totalitarian extremist fascist Muslim mindset must be destroyed, and fast. It's a threat to us all. And I really pity those who haven't realised it yet.

Also, allow me to express that I wasn't implying that a majority of the English Muslim population are fascist extremists. I was implying that in Shi'i-majority countries, this fascist mindset is the mainstream. And that's frightening. There is indeed a difference between Christian extremism and Muslim extremism. The difference is that the Muslim extremists are actually doing something, taking offensive action. These Christians can talk all they want. But until I see a Christian extremist-organized 9/11, London underground bombing, Madrid train bombing, or suicide bomber attacks in Israel and elsewhere... it's not an immediate issue, nor does it warrant a comparison.

About religion: I don't really think you can claim that organizer religion is the root of all problems. For exampe totalitarian communist countries were atheist by nature, and yet they had violent expansion policies. And organized religion has also done many good things in the world.

The "evil" is in human nature, and humans are willing to use and corrupt any organization to use it for questionable goals. Regardless of whether it's a state, a religion, or other establishment which can manipulate hierarchy and devoted followers to do evil.

But anyway: We seem to be in agreement that the great majority of muslims in the world can in fact be counted as the "good guys" and they are not comparable to fanatics.

Yes, the extremists are indeed a problem. Iran is a problem.

But the big question is: How to deal with it?

Personally I think that the most effective way to handle it is to let these extremist countries self-destruct on their own. In fact 10 years ago in Iran there was a big moderatist movement, which is controlled by iron hand now. People used to watch MTV on their satellite dishes. The women wore Adidas shoes under their robes.

I think that in many ways MTV and Adidas are the most effective methods of warfare to fight against a totalitarian country. Because when the citizens of that country decide they want to be like westerners, then we've won.

Going to war with these extremist countries isn't such a good idea, because that will only help to unify the muslim world - And for a long time they have become more and more LESS unified - And when they become less unified, that's when we are winning.

The most effective way to win the extremist muslims is for us to embrace the MODERATE muslims. Because if we take care that the moderates are faring better than the fanatics, then the moderates will take care of the fanatics. There is no need for us to go to war - The muslims will deal with that between themselves.

This is already happening in many countries. For example the biggest muslim country of the world, Indonesia. They are a strong ally of USA in the "war of terror". They are a moderate, democratic muslim country who is actively fighting against muslim extremists alongside USA.

The war between moderate and extremist muslims is bound to happen some day. And naturally, it will happen differently in different muslim nations. And it's in the interests of everyone that this will be the war that happens, instead of a war between christians and muslims.

So if we want to win, we need to embrace and support the moderate muslims as much as we can. That's the only way we'll ever win.

[Tuukka]

Some recent developments in totalitarian or semi-totalitarian muslim countries, for everyone to read:


EGYPT:

"Newspapers, however, have exhibited an increasing degree of freedom in criticizing the president, and the results of the recent parliamentary elections, which saw Islamist parties such as the banned Muslim Brotherhood winning many seats, genuinely indicate that a change of some sorts is underway."

KUWAIT:

"Prior to 2005, only 15% of the Kuwaiti citizen population was allowed to vote, with all women, "recently naturalised" citizens (less than 30 years of citizenship), and members of the armed forces excluded. On May 16, 2005, Parliament permitted women's suffrage by a 35-23 vote, subject to Islamic law and effective for the 2006 Parliamentary Election. The decision could raise Kuwait's voter rolls from 139,000 to as many as 339,000 if all eligible women register; the total number of Kuwaitis is estimated at more than 960,000. Recently, the former Prime Minister Sheikh Sabah al-Ahmad al-Sabah announced the appointment of Dr Massouma Mubarak as planning minister and minister of state for administrative development affairs. The appointment of a woman as a cabinet minister was a major breakthrough in Kuwaiti political system and it makes Kuwait the third country in the conservative Persian Gulf Arab monarchies to have a woman cabinet minister."

JORDAN:

"King Hussein ended martial law in 1991 and legalized political parties in 1992. In 1989 and 1993, Jordan held free and fair parliamentary elections. Controversial changes in the election law led Islamist parties to boycott the 1997 elections. King Abdullah II succeeded his father Hussein following the latter's death in February 1999. Abdullah moved quickly to reaffirm Jordan's peace treaty with Israel and its relations with the United States. Abdullah, during the first year in power, refocused the government's agenda on economic reform. Jordan's continuing structural economic difficulties, burgeoning population, and more open political environment led to the emergence of a variety of political parties. Moving toward greater independence, Jordan's parliament has investigated corruption charges against several regime figures and has become the major forum in which differing political views, including those of political Islamists, are expressed. While King Abdullah remains the ultimate authority in Jordan, the parliament plays an important role."

MOROCCO:

"Opposition political parties are legal and several have arisen in recent years."

SAUDI-ARABIA:

"Saudi Municipal elections took place in 2005 and some commentators saw this a first tentative step towards the introduction of democratic processes in the Kingdom, including the legalisation of political parties."

(While Saudi-Arabia is an ally to USA, in fact they are one of the very worst opressive regimes in the muslim world)



Anyway, winds of change, and all that jazz...

[echo_bravo]

Quentin, I dont need a response from you. Monotreme and Evilxxx summed up what I would of said anyways.

Your basis in comparing America to Iran is baffling but it makes for a good laugh.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by Monotreme
Because, as I've stated before, organized religion is the root of all the problems this world has seen.

I've been saying that for years. Not on these boards, since I prefer talking about movies than religion, but I totally agree that religious beliefs are the cause of this world's biggest problems.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by bigred760
I've been saying that for years. Not on these boards, since I prefer talking about movies than religion, but I totally agree that religious beliefs are the cause of this world's biggest problems.

What are those problems, and how does religion directly cause them?

[bigred760]

Originally posted by Tuukka
What are those problems, and how does religion directly cause them?

I don't know about directly, I just think that deep down - religious beliefs always seem to play a part in major conflicts: the Crusades, the Holocaust, the current Middle East crisis. And I can't help but feel disdain for people who go around marching against homosexuals because they say God hates them. You've got Shia vs. Shiites, Catholics vs. Protestants, Catholics vs. Jews, and so on and so forth.

Is religion to blame for 100% for all the world's problems - of course not; I don't mean that one bit - religion can be credited for a lot of good things in life as well. I guess I'm saying that extremists are giving religion bad press, and are making people question its worth in the world.