New Airline Terror Plot

[jeo4]

Security chief: Airline terror plot 'close to execution'
Plans reminiscent of an al Qaeda operation, Chertoff says

Thursday, August 10, 2006; Posted: 9:15 a.m. EDT (13:15 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terrorists were in the final stages of planning to blow up planes heading from the United Kingdom to the United States, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday.

The plans were "suggestive of an al Qaeda plot," he said.

British police said they had arrested 21 suspects in the plot to blow up passenger jets flying between the United Kingdom and the United States.

Police said they were still raiding businesses and homes, and Chertoff said it was unclear if all suspects were in custody.

Chertoff said the plotters were "getting close to the execution phase."

"There were very concrete steps under way to execute all elements of the plan," he said.

Alert levels were raised at U.S. and British airports and air travel across Europe and in the United States faced mass disruptions.

The plot was "intended to be mass murder on an unimaginable scale," London's Metropolitan Police Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson said.

The plot involved hiding masked liquid explosives and detonators in carry-on luggage, Chertoff said.

One government official said the terrorists had hoped to target flights to major airports in New York, Washington and California, all major summer tourist destinations.

Passengers "were not yet sitting on an airplane," but were very close to traveling, a senior U.S. counterterrorism official told The Associated Press.

A U.S. administration official said the terror plot targeted Continental, United, and American Airlines. It was not immediately clear whether other airlines also were involved.

British Home Secretary John Reid said the plotters planned loss of life on "an unprecedented scale."

Chertoff said the plan was reminiscent of a plot by 9/11 coordinator Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who in 1999 had envisioned detonating bombs on 11 airlines possibly traveling over the Pacific Ocean.

The plot was "as sophisticated as any we have seen in recent years as far as terrorism is concerned," Chertoff said.

Britain's threat warning level has been raised to "critical" -- meaning an attack is expected imminently.

The U.S. threat level has been raised to the highest level of "severe," or red, for commercial flights originating in the United Kingdom bound for the United States, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

In addition, the threat level has been raised to "high," or orange for all commercial flights operating in or coming to the United States, the DHS said.

The nation's overall terror threat level has not been altered.

Thursday was the first time the DHS has raised the threat level for a specific group of flights.

"Due to the nature of the threat revealed by this investigation, we are prohibiting any liquids, including beverages, hair gels, and lotions from being carried on the airplane," a DHS statement said.

While there is no indication of plotting within the United States, Chertoff issued a statement saying "we cannot be sure that the threat has been entirely eliminated or the plot completely thwarted."

That means airline passengers around the country should show up at least two hours early for all flights, an official with the Transportation Security Administration told CNN.

"Travelers should go about their plans confidently, while maintaining vigilance in their surroundings and exercising patience with screening and security officials," Chertoff said.

The terror plot comes almost five years after Briton Richard Reid attempted to detonate explosives hidden in his sneakers on an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami in December 2001, only a few months after the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York and Washington.

Passengers thwarted his plan, and the plane landed safely in Boston.

Reid pleaded guilty to terrorism charges in October 2002 and is serving a life sentence at the nation's super-maximum security prison in Florence, Colorado.

Security alert follows arrests
British and U.S. security agencies quickly moved to impose strict limits on carry-on items in the wake of Thursday's arrests, causing extended delays at airport security checkpoints. (Full story)

The British Airports Authority said no hand luggage would be allowed onto planes leaving British airports until further notice.

British Airways canceled all short haul flights in or out of Heathrow Airport for Thursday, and delays were stacking flights up at airports across Europe. (Full story)

Stephenson said 21 people were arrested by London, Birmingham and Thames Valley police overnight, but the operation was continuing.

"There's sufficient uncertainty as to whether the British have scooped up everybody," Chertoff said.

"This is about people who are desperate ... who want to do things that no right-minded citizen of this country or any other country would want to tolerate," Stephenson said.

The arrests were the result of a "covert counter-terrorist operation," police said. "It is believed that the aim was to detonate explosive devices smuggled on board the aircraft in hand luggage."

Home Secretary Reid said: "We are doing everything possible to disrupt any other terrorist activity. This will mean major disruptions from all UK airports."

Source: CNN.com

[Vong]

Here's the thing I don't understand. Why do they release information like this other than to scare the shit out of the masses, and/or give some accomplishments to the heightened security in London? The only thing this does is create concern where there shouldn't be to those who travel in airplanes.

It baffles me why governments continually release information like this.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Vong
Here's the thing I don't understand. Why do they release information like this other than to scare the shit out of the masses, and/or give some accomplishments to the heightened security in London? The only thing this does is create concern where there shouldn't be to those who travel in airplanes.

It baffles me why governments continually release information like this.

If they wouldn't release it, people would be complaining about that. I think that it's the better the more open goverments are towards the people. I would be more worried if they would do everything in secrecy.

In this case something actually HAPPENED, as opposed to some other "terror alert" moments.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Well, if we all know about this plot, and when they might execute it, then why bother writing that they're coming close to performing the task? It's like they've failed to do what they do best: scare the shit out of the public.

[Lynn7]

We definitely need to know all of this stuff so that we can make decisions about what we are going to do.

The thing that disturbs me is that I heard the tip for this came from Pakistan so its not like the Brits discovered the plot through their great investigation (of the US either for that matter). So, right now we have an somewhat ethical leader in Pakistan but he is always under threat of assasination.

The Dems are against many of the techniques our gov has tried to implement to catch onto these plots because it might intrude on our rights but on the other hand it is pretty scary that these plots are being hatched and we are tying the hands of the investigators. I doubt this is the only plot in the works. The citizens of this country need to wake up to the danger that is facing us.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
The Dems are against many of the techniques our gov has tried to implement to catch onto these plots because it might intrude on our rights but on the other hand it is pretty scary that these plots are being hatched and we are tying the hands of the investigators. I doubt this is the only plot in the works. The citizens of this country need to wake up to the danger that is facing us.

Pretty typical that you turn this into a partisan thing...completely forget what party was in power during 9/11, eh?

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by Vong
Here's the thing I don't understand. Why do they release information like this other than to scare the shit out of the masses, and/or give some accomplishments to the heightened security in London? The only thing this does is create concern where there shouldn't be to those who travel in airplanes.

It baffles me why governments continually release information like this.

How about to let their citizens know they're actually doing things to avert terror? You and I both know that if terrorist plots were thwarted and no one knew about them we'd all just think no one had tried anything. It's sort of comforting knowing they can still catch these people before something awful happens.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
How about to let their citizens know they're actually doing things to avert terror? You and I both know that if terrorist plots were thwarted and no one knew about them we'd all just think no one had tried anything. It's sort of comforting knowing they can still catch these people before something awful happens.

I agree with this completely and I will add that news is a public service intended to keep us informed of these situations and keep us aware of possible threats. I would be more disturbed if this information were censored.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by Vong
Here's the thing I don't understand. Why do they release information like this other than to scare the shit out of the masses, and/or give some accomplishments to the heightened security in London? The only thing this does is create concern where there shouldn't be to those who travel in airplanes.

It baffles me why governments continually release information like this.

Other than the obvious reasons that others posted, if you are going to arrest 21 people you would be hard pressed to keep the media out of it no matter how clandestine you try to be.

[echo_bravo]

Hey Vong, U.S. and British Intelligence did pretty good huh?:D

How about we give credit where credit is due...

[outsyder]

Originally posted by Vong
Here's the thing I don't understand. Why do they release information like this other than to scare the shit out of the masses, and/or give some accomplishments to the heightened security in London? The only thing this does is create concern where there shouldn't be to those who travel in airplanes.

It baffles me why governments continually release information like this.


Funny, I never would have expected you to be one to advocate the government hiding information.

[Vong]

I'm not neccessarily advocating governments hiding information. However, when it comes to its effects on a countries citizens and abroad, a government has to take into consideration the repercussions of its news.

The only thing I have been seeing on the news since 9am this morning is the "terror plot" being foiled in Britain. Now how do you think people will react to this? If they are like me, they would go on with their lives not worrying about anything. But no, people can be scared shitless when news breaks about a terror plot being foiled and the possibility of people being killed, furthering their paranioa of traveling (ie. in airplanes).

I remember two months ago when those teenagers were arrested for suspected terror plots in Toronto. For days to almost weeks afterwards the news played continual reminders of why Canada should be afraid of terrorism being in their backyard. A Global News poll asked the question: "Do the recent arrests concern you in regards to terrorism in Canada?" (or something like that). Over 70% said they were now more concerned after the terror plot. Am I supposed to be afraid of the big-bad terrorists? Am I going to look over my shoulder each time I go for a walk to make sure no terrorists are following me? Fuck no. That news, nor today's terror plot changes my opinion on terrorism. Life is too short to be worried 24/7 about being killed in a scenario far less likely to happen than being struck by lightning.

I think its a government's responsibility to keep the peace among its citizens, and that includes mental serenity. This news only invokes a sense of paranoia that just makes the citizens more wound up than they should be.

How about we give credit where credit is due...

Yes. Well done chaps for finally proving that eliminating civil liberties, invading people's privacy and constantly surveiling the streets and homes of Britain actually helps defeat terrorism.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Vong,

How were civil liberties violated in this particular case?

And I don't see what exactly your point is. I mean, I know you wouldn't want our governments to refrain from protecting innocent lives but don't you think we have a right to know that we were potentially in danger? What you're saying is that our government should coddle us like we are children. The last thing we need is to be sheltered.

The defunct color alert system, yeah, that was meant to scare us. Letting us know something good happened, well, that should be a god given right.

[BorderEevilIII]

I caught wind of this at work and hearing of the items that were suddenly BANNED explains what was found.
Announcing this incident was indeed needed to be heard.
I ain't doing no immediate travelling at the moment so it doesn't bother me.
It's good that a 9/11 PART 2 was thwarted.

[Monotreme]

This thwarted terrorist attack not only needed to be reported, it needed to be the focus of every news agency in the world for the next week or so. Because it's about time that those people who are still dormant - that includes you, Vong - wake the hell up and realise that the western world and all of its citizens are at a threat from Islamist fascists. Hell, I fell guilty sounding just like George W. Bush by saying that, but while I disagree with his policies, I definitely agree with his mindset. The people of the world need to realise that just because they're sitting in their comfortable homes thousands of miles away from the Middle East, it does NOT mean that they are safe or hidden from these nut-jobs who want to kill them and every other free westerner out there. I'd think that the bombings in Madrid and London over the past couple of years, post-9/11, would have been a wake-up call for the world, but it seems that people were still snoring. Perhaps this will wake them up at last, and get the public to realise that Islamist fascism is indeed very much a threat to the world, and that something must be done about it, and fast.

[Lynn7]

I originally heard that they caught these guys on a tip from Pakistan but they were saying tonight that the terrorist cell was infiltrated by a British agent- great work!

Did anyone hear about the men who were picked up in Ohio with lots of strange things in their car like the passenger lists of airplanes and info about airports and Walmart floor plans- they also admitted to having bought and sold 600 hard to trace cell phones in recent months that they sold to someone else. They themselves were in possession of 6 cell phones. Should the gov hide this stuff from us because we might get scared? We should be scared! That way we can take some action. At the very least it will make us all more vigilant about what is going on around us.

I'm afraid that extreme hatred for George Bush has turned many people into looking for excuses not to see the terrorist threat just so that Bush will not be proven right about anything. Our country's survival is much bigger than George Bush. Also on Glenn Beck tonight he quoted a big guy in the Iranian goveernment saying that they could take us down by crippling our econmy which is based on oil. He also said that they have surveyed the weaknesses of 29 sensitive areas in the US and in the west. But hey, let's try to make peace with these guys cause we should definitely be able to reason with them :rolleyes: It's the Nazis all over again and appeasement all over again. History repeatling itself as it always does.

[Scorpio24]

Well not to make to obvious a point here. They grounded a hell of alot of planes. I'm guessing someone might have asked a question.

Funny because people complain that their goverments don't tell hem enough and then when they stop a massive attack someone critizes them for releasing the details.

Aslo hopefully it acts a s a blow to Al Queda that they're attempts are being foiled.

[Vong]

How were civil liberties violated in this particular case?

There are thousands of CCTV cameras littering the streets of London. People are subjected to "random" baggage checks on the street. The government is about to release compulsory I.D. cards, with a National Identity Registry that holds pieces of information about you. The people of Britain are being labelled by the government and being subjected to countless surveillance. Doesn't this seem to be trouncing on civil liberties?

The people of the world need to realise that just because they're sitting in their comfortable homes thousands of miles away from the Middle East, it does NOT mean that they are safe or hidden from these nut-jobs who want to kill them and every other free westerner out there. I'd think that the bombings in Madrid and London over the past couple of years, post-9/11, would have been a wake-up call for the world, but it seems that people were still snoring. Perhaps this will wake them up at last, and get the public to realise that Islamist fascism is indeed very much a threat to the world, and that something must be done about it, and fast.

Do you think this concerns me at all, personally? I'm not afraid of what might happen to me at all if and/or when a terrorist plot is committed on my backyard.

The fact is that terrorist forces like al-Queda are not international organizations that are coordinating attacks from inside mountains. Forces like al-Queda are an idea that Muslims around the world have picked up on and want to participate in. You may attack the person with the idea, but someone else is bound to replace him/her and continue the ideology. So how do you stop this idea? You can't. Until they give up or decide they want to do something good in their lives, you won't see an end to terrorism. This is what governments and citizens fail to realize. You can throw bombs and shit into mountains, fire bullets and kill hundreds of Islamic fascists, but in the end the idea remains.

And terrorists have a huge advantage over us, in my opinion. Do you know why? They do not fear us!

Funny because people complain that their goverments don't tell hem enough and then when they stop a massive attack someone critizes them for releasing the details.

Read my previous post about government's scaring the crap out of civilians.

[echo_bravo]

Yes. Well done chaps for finally proving that eliminating civil liberties, invading people's privacy and constantly surveiling the streets and homes of Britain actually helps defeat terrorism.

Bwhahaha
Your posts crack me up dude.

Its pretty much "damned if you do/ damned if you dont" with you. You just cant win. I am also concluding that you will never give credit where credit is due.

There is really no sense in reasoning with you.

[The Postmaster General]

Some of the security measures airports are taking are fucking absurd. They are making babies drink forumula to prove it's not explosive material. Don't they have shit that they can use to test this, like they do on COPS, to test and see if something is really cocaine or not. They are making people throw out contact solution --- The thing about making babies drink the formula really bugs me, though. Only people who have sat with babies can understand why, but I'll try to explain - when a baby is hungry, it's hungry, and when it's not, it's not. You can't just ask a baby, "Here, try this." It doesn't work that way.

Good job for the governments for keeping us safe, but boo to the FAA who seem to have the law enforcement skills of the town of Mayberry. I mean, seriously some cop in bumfucksville can, on a routine traffic stop, determine the class and purity of a drug in moments, but these guys can't tell the difference between baby formula, saline solutions, bottled water and shit that can make a plane explode - get the fuck outta here with that shit. :mad:

[Vong]

"damned if you do/ damned if you dont"

Welcome to Politics dude, where catch 22 dominates.

Mmmmm, I love catch 22.

There is really no sense in reasoning with you.

Funny, I was going to say the same about you.

[Criminal Rock]

Vong, we forfeit our privacy (or at least a bit of it) to insure that we remain safe from the jackasses that want to kill us. It’s that simple. I mean, what do you expect us to do about it? Honestly... Do we really have any other choice? Do YOU know of better, MORE EFFECTIVE methods of keeping the terrorists from killing us? If so, I’d like to hear it.

Life outweighs privacy ten fold. That’s just the way it is for me, and if that means I am to be subjected to camera surveillance and the like, then so be it. They might be invading my rights, but they’re not taking em’ away.

[Lynn7]

Bubba, I heard they were making the parents drink the formula to make sure of what it was before letting them take it on board but I was thinking that if it is someone suicidal they won't mind drinking formula with explosive mix in it.

[bigred760]

I didn't see people rioting in the streets out of fear or anger. I didn't see anybody getting arrested at airports or on planes in either the UK or the US. Why shouldn't people know about what's going on in the world? The stuff that's going on concerns them - terrorists are targeting them. That's why they're called terrorists for crying out loud.

The only thing that people had to deal with is that they couldn't bring perfume, toothpaste, or Pepsi onto a plane. God forbid!! Oh and longer waits to, but you're already supposed to get to the airport two hours early.

Of course terrorists don't fear us - they're willing to kill themselves along with the people they're targeting. We're visible, they're not.

But knowledge is power, and I'd kinda like to get updates as to what these fuckers are doing.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Of course they don't fear us, they are a people without hope. They are also cowards who aim to commit atrocities without ever having to pay for it. But you know what? I don't fear them. I don't have to as long as our governments our thwarting them.

[Vong]

Vong, we forfeit our privacy (or at least a bit of it) to insure that we remain safe from the jackasses that want to kill us. It’s that simple. I mean, what do you expect us to do about it? Honestly... Do we really have any other choice? Do YOU know of better, MORE EFFECTIVE methods of keeping the terrorists from killing us? If so, I’d like to hear it.

If the intelligence field was actually doing its job, without invading people's privacy, they would be able to find these terrorist groups. Want a more effective method of prevention? How about alittle espionage and infiltration? You'd be surprised how easy it is to infiltrate a group and report on each of their plans.

Life outweighs privacy ten fold. That’s just the way it is for me, and if that means I am to be subjected to camera surveillance and the like, then so be it. They might be invading my rights, but they’re not taking em’ away.

What good is a life when your government starts living vicariously through it? To me, rights and liberties are sacrosanct, they cannot be trounced upon. Take whatever means neccesarily in order to protect civilians, but once it goes into the territory of freedoms and rights, they have stepped over the line.

Terrorism is not a phase that lasts a couple of years. With the motivation and support terrorist have now it seems unlkely that our freedom's and rights will be returned to us if and when they are taken away. Soon democracies over the world will soon turn into Orwell's worst nightmare. Then the terrorists will have won. They will finally have proven that our form of democracy fails.

How much is everyone willing to sacrifice in order to stop terrorism? Are you willing to have your entire lives being watched by big brother in order to find the "enemy" among us?

[echo_bravo]

You'd be surprised how easy it is to infiltrate a group and report on each of their plans.

Oh, okay Jack Bauer LOL

What good is a life when your government starts living vicariously through it? To me, rights and liberties are sacrosanct, they cannot be trounced upon. Take whatever means neccesarily in order to protect civilians, but once it goes into the territory of freedoms and rights, they have stepped over the line.

For crying out loud!! Stop it with this paranoia talk of Orwell and 1984. Has the government really done something specific to you that has endangered you?
It just seems like you like to complain and are totally jaded about the whole situation.

And all you can respond is by giving a backhanded compliment to the U.S. and British Intelligence that just stopped 9 planes from going down. Yeah, what "big brother" assholes!!!!:rolleyes:

Again, V for Vendatta has warped your mind.

[Criminal Rock]

Originally posted by Vong
If the intelligence field was actually doing its job, without invading people's privacy, they would be able to find these terrorist groups. Want a more effective method of prevention? How about alittle espionage and infiltration? You'd be surprised how easy it is to infiltrate a group and report on each of their plans.

I’m sure we’ve had agents/spies behind enemy lines for a while now, I’d bet my life on that... and I’m sure it’s an effective way to thwart terrorist plots, but it’s an extremely risky and deadly tactic that we shouldn’t rely on.

Surveillance cameras and random bag checks delve into the realm of politics, while espionage delves into the realm of life and death.

What good is a life when your government starts living vicariously through it? To me, rights and liberties are sacrosanct, they cannot be trounced upon. Take whatever means neccesarily in order to protect civilians, but once it goes into the territory of freedoms and rights, they have stepped over the line.

Stepped over the line? These things are merely an inconvenience, man. I’d rather be alive and suffer the nuisance of my telephone conversations being wiretapped, rather then being dead from some hack who thinks I’m some godless barbarian. Our rights are of no use to us when we’re dead, I don’t know any other way to explain it.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Bubba, I heard they were making the parents drink the formula to make sure of what it was before letting them take it on board but I was thinking that if it is someone suicidal they won't mind drinking formula with explosive mix in it.


So are we on the same page with this?

I think security measures are great, but it seems like they are basically moving toward only allowing naked people with no luggage on planes. I'm not really sure why we live in a society where security for a Three 6 Mafia concert is more 'with it' than the security for international airlines.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I think security measures are great, but it seems like they are basically moving toward only allowing naked people with no luggage on planes. I'm not really sure why we live in a society where security for a Three 6 Mafia concert is more 'with it' than the security for international airlines.

Beats getting strip searched.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with the drinks thing. The supposed plot was that terrorists were going to bring liquid explosives on board, get together around the bathroom, mix the liquids and then detonate it. What's wrong with taking a sip of baby formula to help out security?

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by bigred760
Beats getting strip searched.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with the drinks thing. The supposed plot was that terrorists were going to bring liquid explosives on board, get together around the bathroom, mix the liquids and then detonate it. What's wrong with taking a sip of baby formula to help out security?


Yeah I agree on this.

I think his main gripe was with making the babies drink it. I don't think thats trye though. The reports and pictures I saw were of the mothers drinking it to show that it was not lethal.

But yeah I agree I don't see nowt wrong with it. Any other way is going to cause mass delays

[The Postmaster General]

Actually, the story I saw here in Minneapolis, a mom was saying the baby drank it, and wanted to finish the whole thing, then got fussy when they tried to stop, so they just let it finish; now there's none for the plane.

It makes more sense to have the adult drink it, so this may be a non-uniformity or lack of communication from airport to airport which is really the bane of my problem.

I don't see how you guys are cool with the fact that they are leaving it up to us to do their bomb sniffing for them. Like Lynn said, if someone is going to blow up an airline with 250 passengers, do you really think they are going to sweat drinking a bit of explosive to carry out their plan????

Jesus Christ, people - you say this is going to avoid mass delays? Ever since 9/11 the expected check in time for airports went from 40 minutes to 2 hours.

My problem is that we are talking about some pretty basic detective work and monitoring that the airlines seem totally incapable of carrying out. Did my point about how cops in any town can test and find the class and purity of any known drug, using equipment that fits in a shirt pocket, mean anything?

Sorry guys, but my whole point is that it seems like the FAA is always ONE STEP BEHIND. We take our shoes off because it took them that long to figure out that someone can put a bomb in their shoe! Now EVERYONE has to take their shoe off. Seriously, what's going to happen when someone makes an underwear bomb?

You guys are going, "Yay! Drink the formula! We are stopping destruction."

But I'm going, "Couldn't we just have explosive sniffing dogs at the security check points?"; "Can't they use the equipment that's out there to detect radioactive or volatile chemicals?"; "What about doing like they do at pretty much any and every hip-hop club in any major city, and have someone available to look for someone doing something like, I don't know - mantling an explosive device?" Is it too much to ask for them to maybe have someone trained to notice something like, I don't know --- Why are these guys going to the bathroom one after another? Is it really hard to have someone who can do a bathroom search in between patrons - especially is said patron has an interesting profile, or is already on a list?

I just want to make very clear, and make sure you guys realize --- The heightened security at the airports all came about because KNOWN TERRORIST associates got on airplanes CARRYING BOX CUTTERS and none of the FAA trained security went, "Hey, something seems weird." And I don't know, but would bet money that the 21 people they caught were also on some sort of watch list.

Come on, man - try and tell me that airport security as a whole isn't a big joke that's relying on the consumers to make their jobs as less involving as possible. There's a dozen other things they could be doing that they are not doing. Instead they have us undressing, drinking motherfucking infant formula, and all this other bullshit.

Sorry, but if the DEA can see a guy smoking a joint from outer space, I have a hard time believing that the airport security can't figure out if someone standing 6 inches in front of them has the goods to blow up a plane. Keep wondering why I'm having a hard time with this all I want, but I really don't think you guys are looking at the big picture --- And yes, planes no go boom is a big picture, but I'm talking about looking a bit outside that pictures frame. The walls have shit on them.

[Vong]

Stepped over the line? These things are merely an inconvenience, man. I’d rather be alive and suffer the nuisance of my telephone conversations being wiretapped, rather then being dead from some hack who thinks I’m some godless barbarian. Our rights are of no use to us when we’re dead, I don’t know any other way to explain it.

Dude, I know what you are saying. I know exactly what you mean by saying life is far greater than any right we have. But my position is what good is a life if we have no rights to live with? Keep in mind you have nothing to look back on when you're dead, because you are dead.

If you are willing to give up your rights to live without fear of terrorism, I'm trying to tell you that you won't see those rights given back to you for a long time, if ever.

Again, V for Vendatta has warped your mind.

Dude, V for Vendetta is pale in comparison to the things I've read and seen. I think you are just saying this because my avatar has a V. Keep in mind V for Vendetta is not the first piece of media to ever talk on the subject of a dystopian society created out of fear.

Though I can honestly say that you must be totally oblivous to the possibility of such a thing happening. You are set in your convictions that nothing will convince you otherwise. This can, however, explain my attitude towards the subject. But I only offer this as a possibility from where our societies are standing now. We are not far from a totalitarian state being formed somewhere in the Western world.

[EVILxxx]

Vong I guess you are against mere baggage checks as well as it violates our right to keep our personnal items to ourselves. Are you also against metal detectors, and making people empty their pockets when metal is detected?

[bigred760]

I still don't see the big deal behind a baby drinking formula to confirm that it is indeed formula. You seem to be upset by the fact that the kid will have nothing to eat on the plane ride. For all we know, the kid will be blown up along with 249 other people because security missed a few people bringing liquid explosives onboard.

I agree with you that the FAA and security seem to be slacking as far as keeping up with potential dangers getting onto planes. You'd think there'd be at least one person coming up with terrorist attack scenarios . You'd think the shoe thing would've been an easy one.

But unfortunately for security, terrorists blend in really well in a crowd. It's not like security guards can pull over every person who "looks like" a terrorist. I've seen lines to a bathroom on airplanes - there's only a few on each plane; are you telling me that everybody in line is planning on bringing the thing down?

Who says they don't have equipment checking for explosive devices and the like? What are they using to scan the checked luggage?

I just don't think it's too much to ask for people to cooperate a bit, take your your shoes off, take a sip of your baby's food, and walk through the metal detector without bitching that your flight's late because of all the extra security.

And these extra measures, not taking liquids and gels with carry-on luggage, is not permanent yet, but I hear they could last a few more weeks - at least. The safety of passengers is worth the small inconvenience.

[Scorpio24]

I don't disagree that they are slack and lazy when it comes to airport security.

But I do disagree with the fact that it's a big deal to ask a mother to drink some milk to prove its not safe. I know you and lynn are saying that it wouldn't matter to a suicide bomber to drink this shit and just get on the plane. But there was a piece on the news last night about this solution they were usuing to blow up. In the article they made it pretty clear that this stuff is lethal. Can't confirm that myself but that was the scientists pov. So being made to drink it before getting on the plane would result in some pretty obvios side effects before take off I would imagine. I see the reasoning for asking them to drink it.

However I do see and totaly agree with your point that it's not as if this threat is new and we have been under threat for quite some time now. They really should have something in place. I don't know if dogs are the answer. I don't know if it would be possible to sniff a solution through a bottle or milk or soda or what have you.

What system they would need I have no idea. As far as delays go for checking this stuff. 2 hours would soon turn into 4 or 5 if they had to check all bottles individualy. And again agreed that they have been...well... sloppy or lazy for want of better words.

But as for saying if a cop can spot cocaine in minutes they should be able to spot solution in a drink. Well I don't agree with that analogy. I could tell you the difference between cocaine and pretty much any other substance in a matter of seconds also. There is little skill needed in that. But finding or knowing of a possible sloution that could detonate in a plane mixed with a drink is completley different.

But again it comes back to the fact they really should have something in place for this and anything. But as of yet they haven't so for now I don't see no problem with getting parents to drink the drink.

[The Postmaster General]

See, you guys agree with me that the security is slack, as both of you put it. That's my whole point. The baby formula thing, to me, is a MINOR inconvenience second, and a symptom of the slack security first. I wouldn't make a big deal about the baby formula thing if I felt it was part of an overall improvement in detection techniques, but it's not - it's, "We don't have our shit together, so you have to prove yourself to get on this plane."

Let me say it as clear as I can --- I have no problem with drinking formula, and I have no problem with taking my shoes off, IF I felt security was doing something in addition to the things they are asking us to do. I wouldn't have a problem with not bringing fucking fingernail clippers on a plane, IF I didn't know for a fact that they could just tell the air marshall, "Psst. That guy has some fingernail files on him. Watch for anything suspicious." Maybe while they are raising plane fares they could throw in for some extra security on the plane.

I haven't seen United 93 yet, but from what I understand, that movie raises a pretty convincing argument against the idea that people can take control of a cockpit using crappy weapons.

Another case in point. Apparently since I'm a blue eyed white guy, I'm profiled every single time I've gotten on a plane. Nah, I don't know why, but every single time I fly, I'm the lucky one who gets pulled off to the side and given the extra special search. For all I know it could be that I really am on a watch list because of stuff I've said on these boards. Haha --- ANYWAY.....

One time I went through, and they gave me the extra special search - apparently, the metal detection wand kept going off with me. Well, I know it was -- BEEP BEEP -- every time they ran it past me. But they never found out what was setting it off. I emptied my pockets, got patted down, unbuckled my pants so they could look to see if anything was concealed, but I never stopped beeping. What did they do? They asked me if I knew why I kept beeping, and when I said I didn't know - guess what? They sent me through. Initially I was glad to be on my way, but once I thought about it, I was kind of bothered.

This special search has happened the last 6 out of 6 times I've flown. I don't totally mind, actually. Yeah, it makes me nervous, just because I'm usually in a hurry and I start to worry about stuff like leaving my keys at the checkpoint (which I did time #1) but yeah - it's to be safe. What does bug me is that when they actually have a reason to search me (beep beep) it all seems more like they are going through the motions of tight security than actually having tight security. Do you get my drift?


I could tell you the difference between cocaine and pretty much any other substance in a matter of seconds also. There is little skill needed in that. But finding or knowing of a possible sloution that could detonate in a plane mixed with a drink is completley different.

What are you talking about? Lemmy from Motorhead was cleared of a drug conviction charge, because the cop mistook his crystal meth for cocaine.

Yeah, you can look at something and say, "Oh, that's white powder, it's probably bad" but what I"m saying is -- they cannot only tell you what kind of white powder it is (without the street cred test of rubbing it on your teeth) but they can say what the cut is -- "This is 75% pure!"

Come on, man --- A doctor can look at a piece of your shit and tell you everything that is going on in your body. You mean to tell me that there is no way for them to put an ounce of liquid into a machine that can detect material they are looking for? A K-9 dog can smell if you smoked pot in your car a month ago. Have you never heard the word "trace amounts"? Do you think that people were able to detect trace amounts, or do you think the perps told them, 'Oh, it was just a little bit."? These are tests that take SECONDS --- What is the difference between having someone drink something, and waiting to see if they gag, and putting the same thing into a little device that has pretty lights and bells if something is afoul? I'll tell you what the difference is: The latter would keep the FAA from looking like it's fighting crime in the early-50s.

To put it in a way of speech I've learned through these forums and in internet culture:

science and technology > airport security

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove


Come on, man --- A doctor can look at a piece of your shit and tell you everything that is going on in your body. You mean to tell me that there is no way for them to put an ounce of liquid into a machine that can detect material they are looking for? A K-9 dog can smell if you smoked pot in your car a month ago. Have you never heard the word "trace amounts"? Do you think that people were able to detect trace amounts, or do you think the perps told them, 'Oh, it was just a little bit."? These are tests that take SECONDS --- What is the difference between having someone drink something, and waiting to see if they gag, and putting the same thing into a little device that has pretty lights and bells if something is afoul? I'll tell you what the difference is: The latter would keep the FAA from looking like it's fighting crime in the early-50s.

To put it in a way of speech I've learned through these forums and in internet culture:

science and technology > airport security

Well i don't really disagree with any of what you've said here. But the fact is as we've established they were not up to scratch when it comes to security. They obviously didn't have that device you've said available so they could and can only make them drink the stuff.

But again yes they should have something available and why they don't i don't know

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by Vong


Dude, V for Vendetta is pale in comparison to the things I've read and seen.

On leftist blogs I'm assuming.

[Lynn7]

I'm absolutely OK with people not bringing any carry on luggage on the planes for saftely. Let the airplanes sell the snacks water and food and now many of the planes have computer stuff people can do without bringing their own gagetry on board. Of course stuff Like formula and medicines can still be allowed.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I'm absolutely OK with people not bringing any carry on luggage on the planes for saftely. Let the airplanes sell the snacks water and food and now many of the planes have computer stuff people can do without bringing their own gagetry on board. Of course stuff Like formula and medicines can still be allowed.


How often do you fly Lynn, and for what purposes? What you are suggesting is far from reasonable for many people.

In case no one was aware of this, let me remind everyone that the biggest plot and attack EVER involving commercial planes was carried out with box cutters --- what does that have to do with carry-on luggage?

It's like buying a new car to avoid having to put gas in the old one.

[echo_bravo]

On leftist blogs I'm assuming.

Bwahahaha I am assuming that as well. Or Michael Moore books.

[Lynn7]

I don't fly much at all but my husband flies quite a bit. He brings all his stuff on board because he hates to go collect his luggage after the flight. He also brings his laptop etc. But you know, for his safety, I would rather if he would be inconvenienced a bit. Now that we have seen the terrorists with shoe bombs and now mixing liquids it is just a lot easier on the airlines to have all luggage checked. And the box cutters should have never been allowed on board- it's hard to beleive that those were permissable.

[Vong]

On leftist blogs I'm assuming.
Bwahahaha I am assuming that as well. Or Michael Moore books.

Don't patronize me please. If you guys want to have a serious debate here, ask me questions. But I'm not some liberal monkey here to dance for you.

Vong I guess you are against mere baggage checks as well as it violates our right to keep our personnal items to ourselves. Are you also against metal detectors, and making people empty their pockets when metal is detected?

I'm going to say yes and no to this.
No I'm not against it, because I do believe that in certain cases (especially traveling) some level of security should be provided, and this requires baggage checks. It basically ensures to everyone on a plane that the person next to you has been checked and cleared and does not pose as a danger.
Yes I am against it, because as you said it is invasion of privacy and your rights are infringed on. This is where you must bend the rules a bit for the sake of public safety. However, this becomes incredibly difficult when terrorists are coming up with ingenius ways (such as sneaking liquid bomb shit in bottles) to make our lives alot harder. Because each time they figure out something new to exploit in the ways of security checks, we get fucked up the ass and our rights are once again set aside for the sake of safety.

However, I will say that checks in the middle of the street is wrong. That is uncalled for and totally unncessary, along with CCTV cameras.

[Lynn7]

Here's an amazing article about the baby bottles. I guess it's not that surprising:

By JOHN KAY
Chief Reporter
and SIMON HUGHES

HATE-filled mums willing to sacrifice themselves and their BABIES are being hunted in the war on terror.

Security sources confirmed last night that alleged “baby bombers” were among those arrested over the plot to massacre thousands by downing transatlantic flights.

Those being quizzed included a husband and wife with a six-month-old infant.

The discovery prompted fears that there were fanatical mothers in secret al-Qaeda cells in Britain ready to become suicide bombers — and to die with their tots in their arms.

And it emerged as the reason why women at airports were ordered to drink from their babies’ bottles before being allowed to board flights during last week’s massive alert.

One senior Government security adviser warned of a race against time to identify individuals who might pose a threat.

The adviser said: “It may be beyond belief, but we are convinced that there are now women in Britain who are prepared to die with their babies for their twisted cause. They are ruthless, single-minded and totally committed.”

The nightmare is that mums carrying tiny tots would provide “very good cover” and not raise suspicions among even the most alert security guards.

The threat was identified along with an additional warning that as many as two dozen terror cells may still be active in Britain.

The source added: “We believe all the known players involved in last week’s plot have been detained. Our biggest concern now is all the unknown players who may be out there.

“And that includes mothers who are ready and willing to see their little ones die. It is a race against time.” Women around the world have carried out suicide attacks in the past.

Two female Chechen terrorists blew themselves up on separate flights in Russia two years ago.

An intelligence source said: “Al-Qaeda specialises in attempting the unexpected. What could be more unexpected in Western eyes than women willing to die with their babies?”

MI5 chiefs are jubilant over cracking the plan to disguise bombs as soft drinks or baby bottles — but warned that other forms of transport are massively at risk from suicide attacks.

The Government source said: “There are dozens of other outrages being plotted on all forms of transport because they offer the highest potential body count.”

Yesterday it emerged that among those detained in last week’s raids is believed to be a key al-Qaeda figure.

A senior Government official said: “He is not al-Qaeda’s Mr Big in Britain but he is certainly a very important player.”

It is now almost certain that a dummy run for an attack had been planned by terrorists for a flight over the weekend.

“We now think that was on,” said the source.

Last night 23 people arrested in raids in London, Birmingham and High Wycombe, Bucks, remained in police custody.

Twenty-two can be detained until Wednesday and a decision on another individual has been adjourned until today.
__________________________________________________ ________


Don't these suidcidal bombers see that the leaders are not sacrificing THEIR own lives? They look for people (usually pretty young)who are really gullible to sacrifice their lives so the terrorist leaders can acieve power for themselves to oppress people.

[echo_bravo]

But I'm not some liberal monkey here to dance for you.

Bwhahaa
DANCE MONKEY DANCE!!!!!:D

I am only fucking with you Vong.

Yes I am against it, because as you said it is invasion of privacy and your rights are infringed on. This is where you must bend the rules a bit for the sake of public safety. However, this becomes incredibly difficult when terrorists are coming up with ingenius ways (such as sneaking liquid bomb shit in bottles) to make our lives alot harder. Because each time they figure out something new to exploit in the ways of security checks, we get fucked up the ass and our rights are once again set aside for the sake of safety.

Yes, it is an incovience. But in the times we are living in you have to understand we have to make sacrifices here and there. I, for one, dont really have a problem with it.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7

Don't these suidcidal bombers see that the leaders are not sacrificing THEIR own lives?

Of course the leaders don't sacrifice their own lives, otherwise there's no more terrorist organization!

That's why WE'RE TRYING TO KILL THEM.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Don't these suidcidal bombers see that the leaders are not sacrificing THEIR own lives? They look for people (usually pretty young)who are really gullible to sacrifice their lives so the terrorist leaders can acieve power for themselves to oppress people.


Maybe they are offered good benefits.