Elton John: "Religion should be banned" [Archive] - Movie Fan Central Discussion Forums

echo_bravo

11-12-2006, 04:45 PM

Elton John: Religion Encourages Hatred
Nov 11, 7:00 PM EST

The Associated Press

LONDON -- Organized religion fuels anti-gay discrimination and other forms of bias, pop star Elton John said in an interview published Saturday.

"I think religion has always tried to turn hatred toward gay people," John said in the Observer newspaper's Music Monthly Magazine. "Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays."

"But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion," he said. "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."

John also criticized religious leaders for failing to do anything about conflicts around the world.

"Why aren't they having a conclave? Why aren't they coming together?"

John said those in his own field have been similarly lax.

"It's like the peace movement in the '60s. Musicians got through to people by getting out there and doing peace concerts, but we don't seem to do them any more," he said. "If John Lennon were alive today, he'd be leading it with a vengeance."

__________________________________________________ ___

I am not religious at all but Sir Elton John you are a fucking idiot.

The Heart Collector

11-12-2006, 05:13 PM

Can't say I agree with banning it, but everything else was mostly spot on.

Jon Lyrik

11-12-2006, 05:32 PM

Elton John's being an asshole, but that's not rare coming from him. I can't say religion isn't a big pile of horse shit, though.

Mr. Fred Krueger

11-12-2006, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by echo_bravo

"But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion," he said. "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate."
[/B]

Hey, all I know is that my Jesus said to love everyone. Not just the straight ones, not just believers in Him. Everyone.

That said, people have used religion to spread hatred and all I can say is that they will indeed answer for it when the time comes.

ElderPredator

11-12-2006, 06:09 PM

I do agree with him truthfully but he shouldn't be saying stuff like that really.

Beeblebrox

11-12-2006, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by echo_bravo
"Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays."

It's not religion that's the problem. Not even organized religion. It's some of the people who practice fundamentalist forms of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that seem to be the main culprits.

Obviously, gays have it the harshest in the Middle East. But there are certainly factions in the Bush administration and the Christian fundamentalists across America that either believe in or exploit for political purposes the hatred of gays.

Banning religion is not the answer. I think we should work towards informing the public and empowering those who can work towards change, while disempowering those that practice this kind of hatred and discrimination.

ZenDude

11-12-2006, 07:10 PM

Elton wants to ban religion because it isnt "tolerant" of gays. Um okay. Nice way to take a "tolerant" stance there Elton. :rolleyes:

Shockwave

11-12-2006, 07:23 PM

Elton wants to ban religion because it isnt "tolerant" of gays. Um okay. Nice way to take a "tolerant" stance there Elton.

I was going to post something just like that but with alot more ranting and swearing.

Fuck Damn. Bitch. Shit.

..but really, thats pretty much one of the dumbest things ive ever heard a celelb say. Religion does do alot of good, and the people who hate would continue to do so with or without it.

adamjohnson

11-12-2006, 07:36 PM

The only religion that should be kept is those monks that dont harm any living thing, and even cry when they blow their nose.

I mean, whos gonna wage war on THOSE guys??

ElderPredator

11-12-2006, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by adamjohnson
The only religion that should be kept is those monks that dont harm any living thing, and even cry when they blow their nose.

That was a funny commercial. :D

powersauce

11-12-2006, 08:43 PM

His "speak before I think" quotes and behavior like this remind me why I prefer Billy Joel's music over his...and yes I'm well aware of the irony regarding those 2-3 drunk driving car crashes the "piano man" had. Atleast he's not dumb enough to cheat on Christie Brinkley. *cough*Peter Cook*cough*

JJFlamingo

11-12-2006, 09:10 PM

Oh well, looks like there's a nice warm spot in Hell reserved for Sir Elton...:D

jeo4

11-12-2006, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
It's not religion that's the problem. Not even organized religion. It's some of the people who practice fundamentalist forms of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that seem to be the main culprits.

Obviously, gays have it the harshest in the Middle East. But there are certainly factions in the Bush administration and the Christian fundamentalists across America that either believe in or exploit for political purposes the hatred of gays.

Banning religion is not the answer. I think we should work towards informing the public and empowering those who can work towards change, while disempowering those that practice this kind of hatred and discrimination.

Well put, Beeblebrox. I couldn't possibly put it any better.

Annie Hall

11-12-2006, 10:08 PM

Firstly, I don't think he seriously meant it. He was just being over the top, as usual.

ALSO...he made a point. Is it not rather ironic that all of these religious "peaceful" people are too busy hating on each other to really create any sort of peace?

He should probably stick to the music, though...if he must...

Lynn7

11-12-2006, 10:44 PM

Elton John of the Tantrums and Tiaras fame? :D Love his older music and I own a few of his albums (even though he is gay- I did not discriminate against him. lol!) Of course I disagree with his stance against religion but his comments are often very amusing to me.

APzombie

11-12-2006, 11:23 PM

Its a tough situation. The only ones smiling at the end of the tunnel is the media for throwing some more sparks into the fuel.

Kevin Lockard

11-12-2006, 11:54 PM

Yes, I am all for banning Organized Religion! Or at the very least, Christianity. :D

bigred760

11-13-2006, 12:05 AM

Though I don't think that banning religion is the answer, he does have a point. I realize it's not everybody or all religions, but it's the assholes who feel their religion is right and everybody else is wrong. And it's not just gays that spark hatred, it's anybody who is not of the same religion a lot too. Education and tolerance is the answer in my opinion.

Beeblebrox

11-13-2006, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by APzombie
[B]Its a tough situation.

It's only "tough" because many people want their prejudices enshrined in law.

Religious fundies can't seem to hate gays or worship their gods without legislating everyone else into believing what they do, enshrining it in the Constitution, hanging it in a court room, or invading/attacking another country.

And Elton can't seem to fight back against gay bigotry without wanting to ban all religion.

Why do people want to BAN everything? From video games to movies to religion. Believe what you want and hate what you want, just let other people do what they want as long as it isn't hurting anyone else.

bigred760

11-13-2006, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
Why do people want to BAN everything?

Religious beliefs. :D

Kevin Lockard

11-13-2006, 01:59 AM

Why do people want to BAN everything? From video games to movies to religion. Believe what you want and hate what you want, just let other people do what they want as long as it isn't hurting anyone else.

Probably the smartest thing I've read in a long time. Hmm, let's put Abortion in this category. If you don't want an abortion or you don't believe in them...don't have one! But stay the fuck out of other people's affairs (you know, since you're in no position to judge and you're not affected one way or another anyhow).....thank you! :D

SinisterMinistr

11-13-2006, 09:36 AM

I agree fully with elton, banning it is an impossible dream though (kinda like a war on terror) your never gonna get rid of it.

Tuukka

11-13-2006, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by echo_bravo
"But there are so many people I know who are gay and love their religion," he said. "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely.

Elton has always had a habit of speaking before he thinks, hasn't he?

It should be noted how he also says that many people who he knows are gay AND religious, so I don't think he genuinely wants to prevent them from practising their religion. I think he has enough respect for his friends to allow them practise what ever religion they want to practise.

I wouldn't personally take his comment seriously at all. This is more of his general style of expressing opinions, by giving over the top statements even when he doesn't 100% mean them.

FatSakHead

11-13-2006, 11:35 AM

It's about time a gay pianist had the balls to speak out against religion.

As far as my opinion goes, religion should have never been invented in the first place. To me, religion is synonymous with ignorance and is the very thing holding the human race back. If it were up to me I'd have everyone who practices Christianity persecuted and would require a special three-digit numbered chip to be implanted in every person who wanted a job, house, money, food, and other luxuries.

RustyRazor

11-13-2006, 12:10 PM

Hey, what is this guy's faith?
Is he an athiest?
Banning religion? Elton, you "Tiny Dancer" you.
This guy always has something interesting to say, doesn't he?
Maybe he should just stick to "rocking crocodiles" though.

JJFlamingo

11-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by FatSakHead

As far as my opinion goes, religion should have never been invented in the first place. To me, religion is synonymous with ignorance and is the very thing holding the human race back. If it were up to me I'd have everyone who practices Christianity persecuted and would require a special three-digit numbered chip to be implanted in every person who wanted a job, house, money, food, and other luxuries.

Antichrist, anyone? :D

Kevin Lockard

11-13-2006, 01:29 PM

It should be noted how he also says that many people who he knows are gay AND religious, so I don't think he genuinely wants to prevent them from practising their religion. I think he has enough respect for his friends to allow them practise what ever religion they want to practise.

But I also know people who know several gay guys who are religious and because of the church, they have to run and ask for forgiveness due to them being gay lookeddown upon as the "pathway to hell.":rolleyes:

Horror whore

11-13-2006, 05:37 PM

When it comes to this topic, my thoughts would best be summed up by a quote from the great Roseanne Barr: "I fucking hate religion!"

Go Elton. ;)

Lynn7

11-13-2006, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by bigred760
Though I don't think that banning religion is the answer, he does have a point. I realize it's not everybody or all religions, but it's the assholes who feel their religion is right and everybody else is wrong. And it's not just gays that spark hatred, it's anybody who is not of the same religion a lot too. Education and tolerance is the answer in my opinion.

Yes, people who beleive in a religion should not be sure of what they beleive in- it should just be for show. Tolerance is all about doing away with any belief system that is at odds with atheism. We religious people should just shut up and go away. That is very tolerant. I am so impressed with how advanced a society we are getting to be.

For all the people who say Christians are hateful there are many more who hate Christians. At least Christians are out there feeding and caring for the poor and oppressed in the world and that includes taking care of AIDS patients when it was not the popular thing to do.

Maybe if Elton was able to get away from all of his millionaire partying he could meet the many Christians who give up all to serve others.

Beeblebrox

11-14-2006, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by Lynn7
Tolerance is all about doing away with any belief system that is at odds with atheism. We religious people should just shut up and go away.

Sanctimonious claptrap. Elton's hyperbole notwithstanding, you know as well as I do that neither atheists nor anyone else seriously wants to ban religion.

But many Christians, mostly in YOUR right-wing evangelical Republican ideology, DO want to ban rights for gays (among many other things).

And at least in America, your assertion of Christian haters is either self-delusion or an outright lie. Christians number 85% of the population. At MOST that would be 15%, and only if every single non-Christian (Jews, atheists, et al) hated Christians. Which is absurd. Now contrast that with the number of Christians who voted to ban gay marriage, gay civil unions, and other gay rights.

The vast majority of Christians ARE indeed caring and generous. It's the right-wing evangelicals that give the rest a bad name. And it is that sect, and the extreme sects in Islam and Judaism that persecute homosexuals, that Elton was protesting - however wrong-headed his asserted ban.

FatSakHead

11-14-2006, 01:58 AM

Religion is ignorance and I'm not tolerant of ignorance and I don't think anyone else should be either. Call me an elitist snob all you want.

Shockwave

11-14-2006, 08:41 AM

Religion is ignorance and I'm not tolerant of ignorance and I don't think anyone else should be either. Call me an elitist snob all you want.

...okay.:)

..u must not tolerate ALOT of people. Damn fucking primates.

..but really, i was Christian until i decided that i really dont need a church to tell me to go out and do good in the world. It doesnt mean i dont think its not a GREAT place that has saved/helped many, many people.

...Beeble continues his domination of this thread....

austingirl

11-14-2006, 08:44 AM

Religion is NOT ignorance. THere are people that use it as a way to form all of their beliefs, as opposed to really thinking about the issues and what is wrong and right, but religion is not a cause of that. The cause for that are the leaders, which in some cases are not exposing followers to the proper way of looking at life.

I am a Catholic, but have issues with some of the things that the Catholic chruch opposes. This does not mean that I am not a Catholic, it just means that I have found my own way of thinking and I believe that God understands this. Religion is a very important part of people's lives, including my own. It gives people hope and guidelines for moral issues. I do not believe that it is any way should be banned. It has been the foundation of so much of our history that if you were to get rid of it, it would be like erasing hisotry.

MadsenOMC

11-14-2006, 08:58 AM

thedudeman69

11-14-2006, 10:39 AM

Gays being married is just one right that they lack. They have all the rights that a straight person has except marriage.

FatSakHead

11-14-2006, 12:25 PM

I'm going to create my own religion. The Earth was created by a giant Coca Cola can. Despite all the scientific discoveries there are no such things as dinosaurs, because nobody could have lived before humans because Earl and Erline were the first humans to exist. There's also no such thing as evolution because that intereferes with the belief system of this religion. And despite what those ignorant scientists may tell you the earth was created only a couple thousand years ago as opposed to billions of years ago. In the future, scientific discoveries will try to disprove these teachings, but don't listen to them because that's Satan trying to stir you away from righteousness. You will go to Hell if you believe them. In fact, I think I might put that in my book to warn people against those pesky scientists that way I will control multiple generations for thousands of years to come.

Shockwave

11-14-2006, 12:36 PM

The Earth was created by a giant Coca Cola can.

Make it Dr Pepper and im in. Coke isnt strong enough. In time, it would fail once again, and they would bring back "New Coke".

..and nobody wants that.

Beeblebrox

11-14-2006, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by thedudeman69
Gays being married is just one right that they lack. They have all the rights that a straight person has except marriage.

Well, aside from the fact that marriage is a BIG right to be denied, they also cannot join the military. In many states, they cannot practice gay sex. They cannot adopt children, they are denied visitation rights, protection from discrimination, wrongful termination, et al.

But more importantly, why are you okay with this?

Mr. Fred Krueger

11-14-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by FatSakHead
I'm going to create my own religion. The Earth was created by a giant Coca Cola can. Despite all the scientific discoveries there are no such things as dinosaurs, because nobody could have lived before humans because Earl and Erline were the first humans to exist. There's also no such thing as evolution because that intereferes with the belief system of this religion. And despite what those ignorant scientists may tell you the earth was created only a couple thousand years ago as opposed to billions of years ago. In the future, scientific discoveries will try to disprove these teachings, but don't listen to them because that's Satan trying to stir you away from righteousness. You will go to Hell if you believe them. In fact, I think I might put that in my book to warn people against those pesky scientists that way I will control multiple generations for thousands of years to come.

Yes, because as we all know all Christians deny science. :rolleyes:

As far as gay marriage goes, they definitely should be able to marry. Now whether or not they get married in a church is up to church doctrine. But marriage is something that's been around since before Christianity or Judaism, so for the government to deny the right is a tad...wrong.

MadsenOMC

11-14-2006, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Fred Krueger
As far as gay marriage goes, they definitely should be able to marry. Now whether or not they get married in a church is up to church doctrine. But marriage is something that's been around since before Christianity or Judaism, so for the government to deny the right is a tad...wrong.

It seems that most people who go on and on about protecting the sacred institution of marriage (which apparently they believe is flawless) know next to nothing about its history.

Shockwave

11-14-2006, 04:52 PM

...its not like marriage is this great "life-long" vow or anything anymore. :(

Married people are the newest minority!

MadsenOMC

11-14-2006, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Shockwave
...its not like marriage is this great "life-long" vow or anything anymore. :(

Married people are the newest minority!

Yes married people have done a marvelous job of ruining the sanctity of marriage all on their own.

Shockwave

11-14-2006, 05:10 PM

Yep. It all seems like a fad nowadays. No thought into it at all.

Ive seen soooo many people that just want to get married because they want to "hurry up and do it" without any thought to the future or if they really think they will be with that person FOR THIER ENTIRE LIFE.

MadsenOMC

11-14-2006, 05:19 PM

I remember reading an article a few years ago about "starter marriages." People in their 20s and early 30s getting married with no intention of having kids or being together forever. The plan is a 2-5 year marriage for practice. Then you have people who can get legally married and legally divorced in a span of 55 hours. Yet I hear no one complaining about how these things are hurting the institution of marriage. It's all about "them darn gays."

Lynn7

11-14-2006, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
Sanctimonious claptrap. Elton's hyperbole notwithstanding, you know as well as I do that neither atheists nor anyone else seriously wants to ban religion.

But many Christians, mostly in YOUR right-wing evangelical Republican ideology, DO want to ban rights for gays (among many other things).

And at least in America, your assertion of Christian haters is either self-delusion or an outright lie. Christians number 85% of the population. At MOST that would be 15%, and only if every single non-Christian (Jews, atheists, et al) hated Christians. Which is absurd. Now contrast that with the number of Christians who voted to ban gay marriage, gay civil unions, and other gay rights.

The vast majority of Christians ARE indeed caring and generous. It's the right-wing evangelicals that give the rest a bad name. And it is that sect, and the extreme sects in Islam and Judaism that persecute homosexuals, that Elton was protesting - however wrong-headed his asserted ban.

All people already have the same right to get married. It is just that the gay people don't want to marry the people they are allowed to marry. fine.

When has new legislation ever happened without a lot of controversy and differing opinions? Gay marriage has been outlawed in all countries since forever and in the past few years the issue comes up and Christians are labeled as intolerant for being on the other side of the issue. And BTW, it is not just Christians who are against the legalization. There are many people who are concerned with changing the laws not because of gay people but because of the fear of the slippery slope and marriage becoming so broad in definition that it no longer means anything. Once the family structure dissipates, society is changed forever- it's worth a discussion at least, isn't it? A discussion without name calling or labelling.

I hate to tell you this but the right wing evangelical churches far out perform the watered down churches when it comes to people risking their lives in the service of others. They give the shirts off their backs to feed the poor and take care of the sick. Do you know that most evangelicals give 10% and more to charity? Compare that to what the liberal churches' members give- many put a few bucks in the plate on the Sundays they happen to go to church. And how much do the athesists give to charities? Ask around a bit and you will see it for yourself. The Christian churches (right wing) do not persecute any gay people. They do not beleive the lifestyle is compatible with the teachings of the bible so the problem is when a gay person wants the church to accept the behavior in spite of the Bible's teachings. They can't do that. The Bible is the basis for the teachings of God. How can the churches disregard it? It is unreasonable for John and others to demand the church to change. People choose to join or not to join.

ComeNightfall

11-14-2006, 06:34 PM

But it's also these right-wing evangelical churches that practice extreme hatred and intolerance of others, and only use the Bible to persecute, selecting certain quotes to further their agenda.

Christianity is about loving ALL. Accepting ALL. Not discriminating against certain people. God and Jesus, if you believe, and if they were walking this earth today, would be ashamed at how some have intererpreted their message to spew hatred and hostility. I don't believe that God is this angry, wrathful being ready to send gays to hell, like those Phelps freaks and others like them believe.

Organized religion does a lot of good for a lot of people. It's just we always hear about those that use it for predjudice. These people need to stop worrying so much about what goes on in other peoples' bedrooms and worry about their own lives. The world would be a better place if we would stop trying to force our own religious morals and beliefs on everyone else. ESPECIALLY our government.

*Stepping off my soap box*

Beeblebrox

11-14-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
All people already have the same right to get married. It is just that the gay people don't want to marry the people they are allowed to marry. fine.

That's bullshit. It's like banning interracial marriage and saying it's not discriminatory because everyone has the same right to marry the people they are allowed to.

You're not only promoting discrimination and bigotry against gays, you're trying to spin as if it's not discriminatory when you know it is.

And BTW, it is not just Christians who are against the legalization.

Name one non-religious group or group that is not dominated by religious people who opposes gay marriage.

Do you know that most evangelicals give 10% and more to charity? Compare that to what the liberal churches' members give- many put a few bucks in the plate on the Sundays they happen to go to church.

Oh lordy. From the Dept of Pulling Statistics Out of your Ass.

This is where, despite your sanctimony, your bigotry and prejudices really shine. Not only is it okay and NOT persecution at all to deny gays any and all civil liberties, but LIBERALS are stingy deadbeats who MAY be inclined to drop a buck or two when they HAPPEN to go to church, which is probably hardly ever, right?

Wow. And you wonder why right-wing Christianists get such a reputation of hatred and hypocrisy?

The Christian churches (right wing) do not persecute any gay people.

So in your world, Christians ARE persecuted day in and day out by (I'm guessing) liberals. But right-wing Christians in NO WAY persecute gay people.

Then you're going to have to define "persecution" here, because I fail to see how having 85% of the population and holding every single branch of govt and most positions of power qualifies as being persecuted, but actively having your rights taken away from you, being discriminated against and told you are going to hell for being born a certain way doesn't.

They do not beleive the lifestyle is compatible with the teachings of the bible so the problem is when a gay person wants the church to accept the behavior in spite of the Bible's teachings.

No, the problem is when the people in that church try to have their own religious beliefs and prejudices enshrined in the law of the land.

Beeblebrox

11-14-2006, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by ComeNightfall
*Stepping off my soap box* [/B]

Please don't.

It's one thing for these guys to hate gays and try to take their rights away, but to DENY that is what they're doing and to turn around and claim that it's the Christians who are being persecuted is absolutely dishonest and/or delusional.

That crap has got to be called out for what it is.

Right-wing evangelicals are NOT being persecuted. We are trying to STOP them from persecuting others or enshrining their own religious beliefs in our laws.

Btw, it should be noted that right-wing evangelicals also enabled this president by supporting torture, the suspension of habeas corpus and other Constitutional rights, warrantless wiretapping, etc.

Yep. They've got love to spare.

MadsenOMC

11-14-2006, 06:54 PM

Well-said Beeblebrox. You are 110% correct. I can't believe Lynn really believes what she is typing. Sad and scary at the same time. Right-wing churches don't persecute any gay people?! That is probably the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard in my life. It is as big a lie as I have ever heard.

Scarfather

11-14-2006, 07:21 PM

Apollonius Christ! :rolleyes:

Shockwave

11-14-2006, 08:25 PM

Right-wing churches don't persecute any gay people?!

Many do. Im religious and i can see that plain as day.

jaw2929

11-14-2006, 08:53 PM

I totally agree... Elton rocks...

FUCK organized religion!

JJFlamingo

11-14-2006, 09:57 PM

Wow, looks like the Liberal Elite around here have basically hijacked this thread. Lynn, sweetie, please don't bother. You're not gonna change their minds and they're just about ready to burn you at the stake for having an opinion different than theirs...

Dr Martin Luther Loomis

11-14-2006, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by JJFlamingo
Wow, looks like the Liberal Elite around here have basically hijacked this thread. Lynn, sweetie, please don't bother. You're not gonna change their minds and they're just about ready to burn you at the stake for having an opinion different than theirs...

And the persecution complex continues..

Lynn7

11-14-2006, 10:39 PM

I am OK with disagreement but I prefer it when it is done in a logical way with examples presented. Has it ever occurred to the people who hate the evangelicals that you are basing your ideas on sterotypical ideas of who the evangelicals are? Do you really think that Fred Phelps is representative of the evangelicals? And when you say the evangelicals persecute the gay people who are you talking about? Some outlandish characters that the news has chosen to highlight as represntative of the church? It has not been my experience that there has been any persecution of gays in the church. Are there some people who focus on someone being gay as being a sinner? Sure but they will also be quick to say that they are sinners too.

And for the record when I spoke of liberal churches I was not referring to liberal in the sense it is used as associated with Democrats etc but liberal in the sense that some churches have a liberal interpretation of the bible- they begin to say that instead of following the bible, it is better to follow what the church leaders think is what God wants as what is right.

I am not offended at Elton John's remarks cause he is an equal opportunity commentator. He will be as quick to criticize gay people as he will the Christian church. No one is safe from his comments and I kind of think he is funny and sometimes has some wise insights that he will make but in this case I disagree with him and think that he is guilty of either stereotyping religions or is just not allowing them to practice their own faith as they see fit. If he wants to make a point about persecution he could speak on the Muslims since they will kill a gay person and THAT is persecution but maybe he is afraid to single them out?

ComeNightfall

11-14-2006, 10:40 PM

Liberal Elite?

No, more like Realizing Some People Who Call Themselves Christian Are Really Just Intolerant Pricks.

Beeblebrox

11-14-2006, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by JJFlamingo
[B]Wow, looks like the Liberal Elite around here have basically hijacked this thread.

Do you have to be liberal to defend gay rights? Doesn't that completely undermine Lynn's point entirely? Yes. Yes it does.

Buck Turgidson

11-14-2006, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by MadsenOMC
Well-said Beeblebrox. You are 110% correct. In matters of this sort, he usually is. I concur with every word he's written in this dispute.

Beeblebrox

11-14-2006, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
[B]I am OK with disagreement but I prefer it when it is done in a logical way with examples presented.

Uh huh. And by logical examples, do you mean like the statistics that you just invent out of thin air? Like there are far more Christian haters than gay bashers?

Why are you acting like evangelicals don't persecute gays when YOU YOURSELF oppose rights for gay people? Are you some kind of anomaly in your church, the only one you know who thinks gays shouldn't be able to get married, adopt children, join the military, etc?

And when you say the evangelicals persecute the gay people who are you talking about?

Obscure and outlandish evangelicals like President Bush and the entire Republican leadership who want no civil protections and no civil rights, including marriage (or equivalent) for gay people. And they want this encased in a Constitutional Amendment so that it's court-proof.

These are the people we're talking about. YOUR people. The people you vote for and support. You.

If he wants to make a point about persecution he could speak on the Muslims since they will kill a gay person and THAT is persecution but maybe he is afraid to single them out?

So killing them is persecution but relegating them to second-class citizens isn't. And how exactly are Christians being persecuted again? Please explain your poor victimhood again. I've got to hear this.

Oh, and Elton did not single out any religion because they are all guilty, as he said, of perpetrating hatred of gays. Just because extreme Muslims (not "the Muslims" as you so stereo-typically and hypocritically put it) are more extreme doesn't exonerate right-wing evangelicals. In this country, taking away their rights is bad enough.

And for the record, I still think Elton's advocation of banning all religion is stupid hyperbole. It will never and should never happen. But clearly gays are far more in danger of losing their rights (the ones they haven't already lost) than religious people are of losing theirs.

Scorpio24

11-15-2006, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by JJFlamingo
Wow, looks like the Liberal Elite around here have basically hijacked this thread.

Haha.

I love it when people start making sense they are labled Liberal Elite.

JJFlamingo

11-15-2006, 10:40 AM

Why not?

You guys mercilessily label poor Lynn every time she opens her mouth...

SinisterMinistr

11-15-2006, 11:08 AM

This thread is great, I love what everyone is sayin....

I just felt I should speak up now. I'm not extremely political, I'm agnostic when it comes to faith, I'm straight, and I wouldn't consider myself liberal or conservative.

Gays should have the same and equal rights as everyone else. If anyone has a problem with equal rights for all, then YOU are what's wrong with this country. Your intolerance to your fellow man is just sad.

Scorpio24

11-15-2006, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by JJFlamingo
Why not?

You guys mercilessily label poor Lynn every time she opens her mouth...

From what i've read in this thread no one has labled her. They have questioned her ideas/ideals on a subject that she has openly discussed in the past. They are questioning her views and arguments not labeling her.

Lynn7

11-15-2006, 11:19 AM

I guess you guys are right.Christians should not be allowed to follow their own religion. They are extremely intolerant to do such a thing. And they definitely should not voice their beliefs- they should just keep their belief system to themselves and should never vote because their intolerance invalidates their right to weigh in on any issue.

Quoted from Beeblebrox:

"And at least in America, your assertion of Christian haters is either self-delusion or an outright lie. Christians number 85% of the population. At MOST that would be 15%, "

Beeblebrox- you are so right. I can just view the posts in this thread and see how Christians do indeed make up 85% of the population and there isn't much Christian hatred in evidence. There is much more hatred directed toward gay people. I bow to your wisdom.

End.(this isn't politics forum so I'm ending it here).

JJ- I appreciate your bravery to weigh to try to get me some politeness. :D

JJFlamingo

11-15-2006, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
[B]I guess you guys are right.Christians should not be allowed to follow their own religion. They are extremely intolerant to do such a thing. And they definitely should not voice their beliefs- they should just keep their belief system to themselves and should never vote because their intolerance invalidates their right to weigh in on any issue.

Quoted from Beeblebrox:

"And at least in America, your assertion of Christian haters is either self-delusion or an outright lie. Christians number 85% of the population. At MOST that would be 15%, "

Beeblebrox- you are so right. I can just view the posts in this thread and see how Christians do indeed make up 85% of the population and there isn't much Christian hatred in evidence. There is much more hatred directed toward gay people. I bow to your wisdom.

Likewise. I kneel and genuflect in the presence of those who know ALL.

And like Lynn, I am Out. Have fun fellas...:D

Dr Martin Luther Loomis

11-15-2006, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
I guess you guys are right.Christians should not be allowed to follow their own religion. They are extremely intolerant to do such a thing. And they definitely should not voice their beliefs- they should just keep their belief system to themselves and should never vote because their intolerance invalidates their right to weigh in on any issue.

Who said you can't follow your religion? But if you're gonna dish it out, then you're gonna have to learn how to take criticism and stop playing the fucking victim. You want to have your cake and eat it too, but it's not going to happen. You can't obstruct others' civil rights, and then act like your religion is immune from any criticism. You demand respect and tolerance, but you refuse to give any in return.

SinisterMinistr

11-15-2006, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Dr Martin Luther Loomis
Who said you can't follow your religion? But if you're gonna dish it out, then you're gonna have to learn how to take criticism and stop playing the fucking victim. You want to have your cake and eat it too, but it's not going to happen. You can't obstruct others' civil rights, and then act like your religion is immune from any criticism. You demand respect and tolerance, but you refuse to give any in return.

Very well put

*start's slow clap*

Dr Martin Luther Loomis

11-15-2006, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
Beeblebrox- you are so right. I can just view the posts in this thread and see how Christians do indeed make up 85% of the population and there isn't much Christian hatred in evidence. There is much more hatred directed toward gay people. I bow to your wisdom.

What backwards, bizzarro world am I living in? This is absolutely fucking insane! Are you actually going to sit here on a public forum and claim that Christians are some sort of persecuted minority in this country? I'm sorry, but please get a fucking grip. I've never seen such a pathetic persecution complex in my entire life.

Basically, it breaks down like this:

1) Gays are treated like absolute shit.

2) Gays naturally reciprocate to being treated like absolute shit.

3) When confronted, those treating gays like absolute shit, all of a sudden become the ones bitching about being treated like absolute shit.

In this bizzarro world, confronting intolerance and bigotry, somehow automatically makes you guilty of intolerance and bigotry. If you don't tolerate one's intolerance, then you are intolerant. Seriously, it's so backwards, it's like seeing the Klu Klux Klan bitch about persecution from the Black Panthers.

MadsenOMC

11-15-2006, 01:12 PM

83% of Americans identify themselves as Christian. How exactly are you a persecuted minority Lynn?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html

AWP82

11-15-2006, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Dr Martin Luther Loomis
Basically, it breaks down like this:

1) Gays are treated like absolute shit.

2) Gays naturally reciprocate to being treated like absolute shit.

3) When confronted, those treating gays like absolute shit, all of a sudden become the ones bitching about being treated like absolute shit.

In this bizzarro world, confronting intolerance and bigotry, somehow automatically makes you guilty of intolerance and bigotry. If you don't tolerate one's intolerance, then you are intolerant. Seriously, it's so backwards, it's like seeing the Klu Klux Klan bitch about persecution from the Black Panthers.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

This thread is hilarious though. :p

Beeblebrox

11-15-2006, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Lynn7
[B]I guess you guys are right.Christians should not be allowed to follow their own religion.

It would really help if you were at least intellectually honest, which really seems beyond your grasp.

The problem is NOT you following your religion. It's about you trying to enshrine your prejudices and beliefs into law by banning gay marriage, gay adoption, and installing other discrimination against gays. These are issues you believe in and refuse to own up to.

And it's certainly not all Christians, nor is it limited to Christianity. It's the extreme forms of religion that promote hate and bigorty. Right-wing evangelicals, orthodox Judaism and fanatical Islam are all guilty of this.

I can just view the posts in this thread and see how Christians do indeed make up 85% of the population and there isn't much Christian hatred in evidence.

Once again playing the pathetic persecuted Christian card. First of all, don't assume that people who are railing against you hate Christians. Most of them probably are religious. I'm a Christian. What I'm railing against and attacking is YOUR branch of Christianity giving all religion a bad name when you promote bigotry and hate and try to enshrine it into law.

Also, while I applaud those in this thread who are standing up for gay rights, they are in no way a cross section of the general population. Luckily for you, gay bashers and right-wing nuts who like to force their beliefs on everyone else through law are much more common than they seem to be here.

JJ- I appreciate your bravery to weigh to try to get me some politeness

Note that "politeness" here is defined simply as agreeing with Lynn. It notably excludes trying to relegate homosexuals to second class citizens, or lying about your beliefs or the beliefs of others.

Beeblebrox

11-15-2006, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Dr Martin Luther Loomis
But if you're gonna dish it out, then you're gonna have to learn how to take criticism and stop playing the fucking victim. You want to have your cake and eat it too, but it's not going to happen. You can't obstruct others' civil rights, and then act like your religion is immune from any criticism. You demand respect and tolerance, but you refuse to give any in return. [/B]

Excellent. Thankfully I think the tide is turning in favor of tolerance. In this last election, gay marriage actually went down to defeat for the first time (it did win, however in other states). But those laws that won can and probably will be reversed at some point.

It's worth repeating: Fighting against intolerance is not the same as intolerance. Lynn and others like her want you to believe that it is, but it's no more true than saying that fighting against racism is the same as racism, which is patently absurd.