This Michael Richards Controversy is Bullshit

[LedZeppelin1114]

As most of you have heard, Michael Richards (of Seinfeld "Kramer" fame), got in some hot watter for shouting the word "nigger" at some audience members in a comedy club. Now, I have watched the video of his tirade, and it would be completely inappropriate.....were it not in a comedy club. I'm sorry, but comedy clubs are supposed to be the last bastion of what we know as free speech. Not only that, if you have ever been to any comedy show with an edgier, racy comic, that type of reaction to a heckler is not at all insane. There is a classic Bill Hicks rant where Bill Hicks repeatedly calls a woman heckler a cunt because she keeps interrupting. Another comic, Nick DiPaolo, has also made some jabs as well, and people take it as nothing more than comedy. Even incredibly brilliant black comics, such as Patrice O'Neal, tearing apart audience members. I abhor racism, but I understand the use of jokes of a racial nature onstage, even when they become brutal, because comedy is about shattering taboos. It is even more infuriating because if it had been an Asian, Spanish, Black, or any other race besides Caucasion screaming "fuck you, you stupid crackers! Fucking honkys think they can say whatever they want", there wouldn't have been shit said. Case in point, racism is fucked up, but race jokes have been adopted by every race and every color on the stage of a comedy club, and being that it is one of the last places where free speech is truly free, it shouldn't be penalized.

I

[bob]

I think that black people should have the right to go out to a comedy club and not be racially slurred.

Honestly, the terms "cracker" and "honky" don't offend me one bit. Maybe because I was never made to feel like I deserved to be human less than black people.

"Nigger" is bar none the most offensive racial term there is, because of the singular history of the word's use in America.

From my viewing of the incident, Richards is not making a joke. He references lynchings. Why would he do that?

"Hey, white people, they're all like, watching FoxNews and eating mayonnaise....but black people, they're all like, getting lynched for having dark skin."

Har har har.

The mere fact that the first thing Richards thought to do was belittle their race is bad enough, in my opinion. He could have made any number of remarks about how rude heckling is, I'm sure many funny ones, but he chose race.

[jackson13]

What pisses me off about it is, he's apologized like 3 times now. Publicly even. What more do people want from him? Christ, let it die already. You cant do anything more than say sorry, which he's done multiple times. Leave him alone.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Jesse Jackson and his band of numbskulls are now trying to get the word "nigger" banned from television...which of course is hypocritical because he's acting like there aren't other hurtful words out there that people shouldn't have to hear everyday. Hell, if some comedian started yelling "spic" do you think he'd care? Fuck no.

[Badbird]

I said said before in another thread, I really didn't have a problem with what he said.

Micheal Richards is a high strung guy who is really intense and takes his job seriously. These guys were heckling him, which is just stupid. Richards is a star and everyone else was obviously there to see him. Richards got pissed and attacked them with the harshest, meanest thing he could say. That's it. He wasn't ripping on society at large. Just those two guys. The attack was personal, not broad.

It's not like he's racist, and it's not like people don't talk like this all the time amungst friends. Hell, just watch The Aristocrats... Richard's tirade has got nothing on the shit in that movie.

[bucket]

If you're gonna play the comedy circuit the can expect to be heckled. ;)

[Tayzlor]

Originally posted by jackson13
What pisses me off about it is, he's apologized like 3 times now. Publicly even. What more do people want from him? Christ, let it die already. You cant do anything more than say sorry, which he's done multiple times. Leave him alone.

I don't think the public are necessarily hammering Richard's gilded gates expecting something other than what they are getting or anything; they are just watching the news beam in whatever news on this.

And doncha know that the more times you apologize (publicly especially) the more they become littered with desperation for forgiveness. Diluted entirely, eventually. After Mr. Kramer's lynching comment, denials of racism and whatever apologies uttered w/ plastered smile amount to shit.

This would not reek entirely of pr if Richards appeared once, apologized and at least acknowledged some of those racist particles swimming in his brain.

I'm sure there was something on Darfur they could've placed over Racist Kramer in the news. But I suppose we'll pass our opinions on whatever is completely understandable from the getgo, and, in front of our faces.


Zep, come on man, this isn't an issue of free speech. People are responsing to Richard's hate, not his usage of nigger. No organization is fining him or jailing him or marking him down on a list of potential loose cannons.

Jackson's current campaign is. Creeper than whatever Kramer said or will say.

[Raoul Duke]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
Jesse Jackson and his band of numbskulls are now trying to get the word "nigger" banned from television...which of course is hypocritical because he's acting like there aren't other hurtful words out there that people shouldn't have to hear everyday. Hell, if some comedian started yelling "spic" do you think he'd care? Fuck no.

Yeah, I don't get his logic. Making the word extremely taboo so that people will be even more tempted to use it and it'll hurt worse.

And didn't this Jesse Jackson character once call Jews a bunch of "hymies" or something?

[Tayzlor]

Jackson should just seriously propose banning all hatred, like that one trying to ban war.

[LedZeppelin1114]

Originally posted by bucket
If you're gonna play the comedy circuit the can expect to be heckled. ;)

And if you are gonna heckle a comedian, you are expected not to be a pussy and to take a beating from a comic.

[AceD]

It is incredibly ignorant to think that any other insult is as vulgar, deamaning and hateful as the word "nigger." The roots of the word make it the ugliest in the language, by far.

The fact that a lot of people (of all races) use the word doesn't make any difference. We're jaded to it (just like sports fans will toss around the term "he got raped" when referring to a good play), but it's still a terrible, terrible word. And the idea that we should use it to take away it's power is stupid.

I understand that many people don't use it in a way that they intend to be hateful. Again, it's accepted in a lot of circles nowadays, at least when you're not on camera. But it still shouldn't be used.

And it shouldn't be used BY ANYONE. There is an excellent article here: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=granderson/061201&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab6pos2

Yes, it's by an ESPN guy, but even if you hate sports take a moment to read it, it's too bad the author isn't famous because it's the best piece to come out of this Richard's deal.

"And if you are gonna heckle a comedian, you are expected not to be a pussy and to take a beating from a comic."

There is a big difference in the person on stage and the person watching. The person on stage is there because they are trusted to not go over the line. And Richard's is not an insult comic. I don't know what the hecklers did that was being a "pussy"...they didn't run and cry, they rightfully spoke up that Richards was out of line.

[bucket]

Originally posted by LedZeppelin1114
And if you are gonna heckle a comedian, you are expected not to be a pussy and to take a beating from a comic.

Calling someone racist slurs aint a beating.

[SkyNet]

Originally posted by LedZeppelin1114
And if you are gonna heckle a comedian, you are expected not to be a pussy and to take a beating from a comic.

A FUCKING MEN!

[Kevin Lockard]

I think nobody should use the word "Nigger", including Blacks. Either everybody should use the word or at least have the choice and free will to do so or nobody should utter it. I mean, when they say the word, they are pretty much opening the door for other people to say it. Over in Europe, the word isn't even that taboo.

[bob]

Of course black people should be able to say "nigger"....they've earned the right, I think.

Am I the only white person on earth who honestly doesn't have a problem with not being able to call black people a word that they can call each other? Why is this such a problem for everyone?

Things said in a sense of solidarity, such as "nigger", or "fag", or "bitch", or anything, are a completely different story than when those same words are said as an insult. It's about context. How can anyone say that a black person using the term "nigger" compares AT ALL to Michael Richards shouting it at an audience member and harkening back to the days of lynching?

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by bob
Of course black people should be able to say "nigger"....they've earned the right, I think.

Am I the only white person on earth who honestly doesn't have a problem with not being able to call black people a word that they can call each other? Why is this such a problem for everyone?

Things said in a sense of solidarity, such as "nigger", or "fag", or "bitch", or anything, are a completely different story than when those same words are said as an insult. It's about context. How can anyone say that a black person using the term "nigger" compares AT ALL to Michael Richards shouting it at an audience member and harkening back to the days of lynching?

AMEN.

And, in response to God of Cinema, the word really doesn't have as much of a background in Europe as it does in America. Scots throw the word "cunt" around like we say "bitch" or "motherfucker", they think nothing of it.

The bottom line was, it was HIGHLY offensive, and pretty freaking scary, but it happened and he's apologizing. Way it goes.

[Scorpio24]

It makes me laugh how people just pass this off with a - "Arrh they had to expect it. It was stand up"

BULLSHIT

Either people have no idea of the history of the word. Or they are to lazy or/and ignorant to learn about it's history.

Being heckled by a few people on the crowd does not give you or anyone the right to respond with a slew or racist bile.

This has been discussed elsewhere here but i'm to lazy to look for it. The exscuse's people are giving to cover this peice of shit's racist rant stuns me. But I also half expect it at the same time.......

[bucket]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
It makes me laugh how people just pass this off with a - "Arrh they had to expect it. It was stand up"

BULLSHIT

Either people have no idea of the history of the word. Or they are to lazy or/and ignorant to learn about it's history.

Being heckled by a few people on the crowd does not give you or anyone the right to respond with a slew or racist bile.

This has been discussed elsewhere here but i'm to lazy to look for it. The exscuse's people are giving to cover this peice of shit's racist rant stuns me. But I also half expect it at the same time.......

[outsyder]

This would have been a non-issue had it not been recorded on a cell phone.


Either way, Richards apologized for his disgusting act, and I believe he was sincere.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by AceD
It is incredibly ignorant to think that any other insult is as vulgar, deamaning and hateful as the word "nigger." The roots of the word make it the ugliest in the language, by far.

The fact that a lot of people (of all races) use the word doesn't make any difference. We're jaded to it (just like sports fans will toss around the term "he got raped" when referring to a good play), but it's still a terrible, terrible word. And the idea that we should use it to take away it's power is stupid.

I understand that many people don't use it in a way that they intend to be hateful. Again, it's accepted in a lot of circles nowadays, at least when you're not on camera. But it still shouldn't be used.

And it shouldn't be used BY ANYONE. There is an excellent article here: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=granderson/061201&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab6pos2

Yes, it's by an ESPN guy, but even if you hate sports take a moment to read it, it's too bad the author isn't famous because it's the best piece to come out of this Richard's deal.

"And if you are gonna heckle a comedian, you are expected not to be a pussy and to take a beating from a comic."

There is a big difference in the person on stage and the person watching. The person on stage is there because they are trusted to not go over the line. And Richard's is not an insult comic. I don't know what the hecklers did that was being a "pussy"...they didn't run and cry, they rightfully spoke up that Richards was out of line.


Nobody is saying that what Richards did was not out of line. Nobody is saying that "nigger" isn't a horrible word.

HOWEVER...I do think it's interesting the way we have such double standards in this country. Just recently, I saw a Damon Wayan stand-up special on Comedy Central, and he was going to make a white people joke; but the second he said "white people" the blacks in the audience started this hateful booing (of white people, not Wayans). I see black comedians make really hateful jokes about white people almost every time I see one on T.V., some of them have said worse things than what Richards said, but were they reprimanded for what they said? Fuck no, America is too blind to see the hypocrisy.

A lot of you are saying that "nigger" is by far the worst word in this language, but you guys have to open your eyes. "Cunt," "faggot," and "spic" are just as bad, considering that the first two have been around longer. Not only that, but it seems that there's a competition on what's more hateful. If you want to ban the word "nigger" from being used you might as well ban the words "cunt," "faggot," "spic," "heeb," or anything along those lines. Hate is hate, period. Just because it's aimed towards black people doesn't make it worse. Yes, the word "nigger" is deeper considering the history of our country and whatnot, but just concentrating on that one word will not end the vicious cycle of hate in this country.

[AWP82]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
A lot of you are saying that "nigger" is by far the worst word in this language, but you guys have to open your eyes. "Cunt," "faggot," and "spic" are just as bad, considering that the first two have been around longer. Not only that, but it seems that there's a competition on what's more hateful. If you want to ban the word "nigger" from being used you might as well ban the words "cunt," "faggot," "spic," "heeb," or anything along those lines. Hate is hate, period. Just because it's aimed towards black people doesn't make it worse. Yes, the word "nigger" is deeper considering the history of our country and whatnot, but just concentrating on that one word will not end the vicious cycle of hate in this country.

Figuratively speaking, I'm for banning all those words when used as an insult. I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. But in most cases, I think it's the intent that makes a word bad, not the word itself. In this case, the intent was clearly hateful in my opinion. I accept his apology though. Shit happens and nobody's perfect. I don't dwell on it.

[AceD]

"HOWEVER...I do think it's interesting the way we have such double standards in this country. Just recently, I saw a Damon Wayan stand-up special on Comedy Central, and he was going to make a white people joke; but the second he said "white people" the blacks in the audience started this hateful booing (of white people, not Wayans). I see black comedians make really hateful jokes about white people almost every time I see one on T.V., some of them have said worse things than what Richards said, but were they reprimanded for what they said? Fuck no, America is too blind to see the hypocrisy."

Yes, there is an element of hypocrisy, but it is NOT the same thing to for a white person to call a black person a "nigger" (in a hateful or mocking way) and a black person call a white person "honky" or whatever else. White people were never enslaved in this country by blacks. People dismiss that and say things like "well it wasn't like that person specifically was enslaved" and try to act like that means blacks should forget the way they were once treated. Please. Total racial equality doesn't (and won't ever) exist anywhere, because there will always be those (of all races) who don't like others who are not like them. Like I said, I do think there is a part of this that is hypocritical, but you can't act like the two sides are coming from the same place. I'm not saying any white person here would or wouldn't have agreed with slavery at the time, but we can't act as if people in our country didn't do it.

"A lot of you are saying that "nigger" is by far the worst word in this language, but you guys have to open your eyes. "Cunt," "faggot," and "spic" are just as bad, considering that the first two have been around longer. Not only that, but it seems that there's a competition on what's more hateful. If you want to ban the word "nigger" from being used you might as well ban the words "cunt," "faggot," "spic," "heeb," or anything along those lines. Hate is hate, period. Just because it's aimed towards black people doesn't make it worse. Yes, the word "nigger" is deeper considering the history of our country and whatnot, but just concentrating on that one word will not end the vicious cycle of hate in this country."

For the reasons above, I do think the word "nigger" carries more weight given its history -- but I never said or suggested that any other word was okay. Yes, all those words should be removed from our speech. They are never okay, and people have every right to be offended by them in whatever element they are used -- comedy or not. I don't know what the lifetime of a word has to do with anything. These are hateful words. We are jaded to them, we toss some around and stay away from others, yada dada dada. We should drop them totally. I don't at all think any of those words are okay, and I wish everyone who slammed the n word was more adament about that. Again, though, I don't think the words are eqaul.

But in most cases, I think it's the intent that makes a word bad, not the word itself.


That is 1000% true. There is nothing wrong with the word itself, it is merely a collection of sounds when spoken and a series of symbols when written. I still think we shouldn't use hateful words, given their history and meaning to some. We're so jaded to "nigger," but I don't think a lot of women would like to be called "cunt" as a term of endearment. So yes, intent is absolutely what makes the word good or bad, but obviously you can't go around tossing the word "nigger" out there as a non-hateful term and expect people to not take it the wrong way.

[ZooKeeper]

I'M surprised no one has said anything about Richards lack of experience at stand up. While no excuse for his tirade, I think that it played a big role for his behavior. He had no idea how to handle a heckler. It almost seemed to me when I was watching the clip, he went into character...went all Kramer, so to speak.

In my opinion lack of experience is more to blame than prejudice.

[AWP82]

Originally posted by AceD
So yes, intent is absolutely what makes the word good or bad, but obviously you can't go around tossing the word "nigger" out there as a non-hateful term and expect people to not take it the wrong way.

BINGO! I don't get why people act surprised. The negative tone alone makes it suspect to most black people (for the historical reasons that have been explained). That's why people assume the worst by default.

[LedZeppelin1114]

Originally posted by Tayzlor
I don't think the public are necessarily hammering Richard's gilded gates expecting something other than what they are getting or anything; they are just watching the news beam in whatever news on this.

And doncha know that the more times you apologize (publicly especially) the more they become littered with desperation for forgiveness. Diluted entirely, eventually. After Mr. Kramer's lynching comment, denials of racism and whatever apologies uttered w/ plastered smile amount to shit.

This would not reek entirely of pr if Richards appeared once, apologized and at least acknowledged some of those racist particles swimming in his brain.

I'm sure there was something on Darfur they could've placed over Racist Kramer in the news. But I suppose we'll pass our opinions on whatever is completely understandable from the getgo, and, in front of our faces.


Zep, come on man, this isn't an issue of free speech. People are responsing to Richard's hate, not his usage of nigger. No organization is fining him or jailing him or marking him down on a list of potential loose cannons.

Jackson's current campaign is. Creeper than whatever Kramer said or will say.

free speech was created to protect people when they say shit others might not like. And if you go to a comedy club, you can expect to hear some shit sometimes.

[LedZeppelin1114]

Originally posted by ZooKeeper
I'M surprised no one has said anything about Richards lack of experience at stand up. While no excuse for his tirade, I think that it played a big role for his behavior. He had no idea how to handle a heckler. It almost seemed to me when I was watching the clip, he went into character...went all Kramer, so to speak.

In my opinion lack of experience is more to blame than prejudice.

I agree with this comment. I think he got frazzled onstage and didn't know how to react. As someone who has taken the stage to do stand-up, it can be the most unnerving feeling in the world to be heckled, and sometimes your course of action may be a brutal one.

Lenny Bruce once said if you are offended by mere words, you are giving those words power. I choose not to take offense to words like cracker, honky, nigger, spic, wop, guinea, or any other slur because that in turn empowers a word.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
[B]A lot of you are saying that "nigger" is by far the worst word in this language, but you guys have to open your eyes. "Cunt," "faggot," and "spic" are just as badB]


I couldn't agree less. The history of the word far outweighs any other insult/racist slur.

I don't even understand how people in general can argue that it doesn't.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by LedZeppelin1114
I agree with this comment. I think he got frazzled onstage and didn't know how to react. As someone who has taken the stage to do stand-up, it can be the most unnerving feeling in the world to be heckled, and sometimes your course of action may be a brutal one.



Something else I totaly dissagree with.

Maybe it's just me but whenever i've found myself flusttered or all over the place I don't start raicialy insulting people. I have never done stand up but I think it's fair to say being a comedian doesn't make you a racist just as booze doesn't.

The racial hatreds are in these people to start with. They don't just "Pop out" whenever caught in a stressfull situation.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
I couldn't agree less. The history of the word far outweighs any other insult/racist slur.

I don't even understand how people in general can argue that it doesn't.

Disagree? Too bad, because "cunt" and "faggot" have been around for ages....in fact, I think they've been around longer than "nigger." The only reason we think it's worse is because it's been used more by Americans and it highlights a dark period in our history. If you take a look at the word from an objective point of view, say from the point of view of a foreigner, who is learning to speak English, it's just as bad.


Hell, I think the term "coon" is worse-sounding than "nigger"....but that's just me.


Besides, how do you know there aren't any other racial slurs out there that are worse? It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese have some pretty horrible racial slurs in their country.

If you don't agree then that's fine, but if you don't know where I'm coming from with this then you just need to open your mind.

[AWP82]

Originally posted by LedZeppelin1114
Lenny Bruce once said if you are offended by mere words, you are giving those words power. I choose not to take offense to words like cracker, honky, nigger, spic, wop, guinea, or any other slur because that in turn empowers a word.

In fairness, the intent also empowers the word significantly, if not moreso than the reaction. It's called cause and effect. You can't always blame the victim. That's a copout for the offender. But on the other hand, one could argue that the hecklers brought it on themselves (the "it" being a reaction, not an OVERreaction like Richards' outburst was).

[ComeNightfall]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
Something else I totaly dissagree with.

Maybe it's just me but whenever i've found myself flusttered or all over the place I don't start raicialy insulting people. I have never done stand up but I think it's fair to say being a comedian doesn't make you a racist just as booze doesn't.

The racial hatreds are in these people to start with. They don't just "Pop out" whenever caught in a stressfull situation.
I totally agree with you. I think Richards deep down always felt this way, and it was probably a matter of time before this incident happened.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Well, Michael Richards did fuck up, but I'm going to reserve my judgement. Truth is, I grew up with the reverse racism. There were times when the black kids treated the white kids the way we treated them back in the 1960's. For a while, I started to develop some of my own prejudices. One day, I accidently bumped into this black girl in the hall and she started screaming and a couple of other black guys tried to gang up on me. As a result, I started screaming at them....saying some things that weren't far from what Michael Richards said. So yeah, maybe he was being treated unfairly too and those hecklers were what pushed him off the edge.

[AceD]

Well, Michael Richards did fuck up, but I'm going to reserve my judgement. Truth is, I grew up with the reverse racism. There were times when the black kids treated the white kids the way we treated them back in the 1960's. For a while, I started to develop some of my own prejudices. One day, I accidently bumped into this black girl in the hall and she started screaming and a couple of other black guys tried to gang up on me. As a result, I started screaming at them....saying some things that weren't far from what Michael Richards said. So yeah, maybe he was being treated unfairly too and those hecklers were what pushed him off the edge.

I can't comment on exactly what you went through Brando, and I'm sure it was bad, but I don't think there is a good comparasin, because as a culture and a government whites treated blacks badly. White people weren't thrown out of (or not let into) restaurants because of their race. Blacks were. Before the 60s a lot of horrible things happened that we all know about. So I don't think anyone can say white americans in general went through anything like (or really anthing close to) what blacks went through.

Really, dude, I'm not trying to make light of your circumstances, because I believe you definatly could have endured some nasty stuff, and obviously blacks have killed whites because of skin color. I just think there is a difference because our nation never approved of killing or enslaving white americans.

I get the point of your example, but there is a huge difference between you as a high schooler getting bullied for no good reason and a professional adult comic getting heckled for sucking up the joint (which he was doing).

[Country1969]

I think he was wrong for yelling that word. But they should have just sat there and enjoyed the show too. They didnt have to open up their mouths. If you go to a comedy club and you hear something you dont agree on,just sit there. Don't get mad and start heckling the comedian on stage. If you have a problem with jokes, then stay home. They are wbite comedians that joke about blacks and blacks joke about whites and etc. I am white and I don't get mad when blacks joke about us whites. I love it. Watch George Carlin, Whoopie Goldberg, Robin Williams, Andrew Dice Clay, the Late Rodney Dangerfield, Billy Crystal,
the Late Richard Pryor,Lewis Black just to name a few. They pick on all races. He should have just stopped and had the men escorted out of the place for disturbing the show. He didn't have to snap at them but chose too. Many of us here would have snapped at those men too. It's our defense unit when someone is disturbing you while you are working.
If they wanted to be the main attraction, they should have took up being a comic.

The N-Word should be elimated from everyone's use - people, movies,video games,music.
So then can make room for the other words that people don't like being called. This will continue for many many years. Let's elimate this word lets elmiate this word and so on. Life is short, use it wisely.

The man is apologizing for what he said, drop it. Get over it.
Are you going to stop liking him or watching him because of this?
No one is perfect. He made a mistake, they made a mistake. Both of them were at fault. Shake hands and walk away. Be men about it.

[AceD]

"Many of us here would have snapped at those men too."

Perhaps true, but I don't think many of us would call black people "niggers" just like that.

"The man is apologizing for what he said, drop it. Get over it.
Are you going to stop liking him or watching him because of this?
No one is perfect. He made a mistake, they made a mistake. Both of them were at fault. Shake hands and walk away. Be men about it."

With all due respect, I think the coversation has become more about the word than about Richards himself. For the record, I didn't like the guy before and didn't think he was funny, and still don't. I don't hate the guy and I'm not going to act like I can know from one incident if he's a racist.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think those that are participating are having a decent and civil conversation.

[Kevin Lockard]

I couldn't agree less. The history of the word far outweighs any other insult/racist slur.

I don't even understand how people in general can argue that it doesn't.

Let's get into the history of the world itself. Slavery? Is it right for a black person to hold slavery against a white person, especially when not one single person walking the earth today had anything to do with it? God knows if someone is listening to a rap tune, whispering along the words, they don't bleep out the word nigger. I think it depends on how you use it, and where you are. It's the CONTEXT, not the word itself. I wouldn't personally call anyone Nigger simply because it would offend them. But that puts it on no other higher level of seriousness that the words Spic, Faggot, Chink, etc. etc. To say it's automatically worse than any of those simply because society forces you to see that is simply wrong.

My whole beleif is that if you want people to stop using the word then ALL people need to stop using it. A black person has no right to get mad at a white person for saying it if they're just going to say it themselves. It's hypocritical to do that. If black people say it amongst themselves, they are opening the door for other people to say it. Also, the way they say it between themselves and expect no one else to use the term is doing exactly what they are apparently offended by: Segregating themselves. If they want to make themselves into their own little "group" then they have to be prepared to take the shit that comes with it. I'm not being racist, just logical.

Also, what Brando said...I can personally attest to something along those lines. This black guy in my school (the year I graduated) went right to a guy's face, claiming he couldn't use the word Nigger against them, following that up with a clear-as-day insult like "Cracker" as he walked by with a look on his face that pretty much oozed with egotism. If it were me, I'd punched him right in his face. That's racism as well, just far less obvious.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
Disagree? Too bad, because "cunt" and "faggot" have been around for ages....in fact, I think they've been around longer than "nigger." The only reason we think it's worse is because it's been used more by Americans and it highlights a dark period in our history. If you take a look at the word from an objective point of view, say from the point of view of a foreigner, who is learning to speak English, it's just as bad.


Hell, I think the term "coon" is worse-sounding than "nigger"....but that's just me.


Besides, how do you know there aren't any other racial slurs out there that are worse? It wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese have some pretty horrible racial slurs in their country.

If you don't agree then that's fine, but if you don't know where I'm coming from with this then you just need to open your mind.

Please explain to me why cunt is, as, an offensive word as ni***er? Why is it so offensive? Because of the age of the word? Nonsense. There are hundreds, thousands of racist remarks or vulgar terms that are all terrible. But none have the hatred and history and context that ni**er does. It's rediculous that it's being compared to cunt in insulting terms.

The fact you think coon sounds worse than ni***er ends my participation in this. Because we are on two different levels of discussion. I understand where you are coming from I just have no idea why or how people have this view?

Different folks.........

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by God of Cinema


Let's get into the history of the world itself. Slavery? Is it right for a black person to hold slavery against a white person, especially when not one single person walking the earth today had anything to do with it? God knows if someone is listening to a rap tune, whispering along the words, they don't bleep out the word nigger. I think it depends on how you use it, and where you are. It's the CONTEXT, not the word itself. I wouldn't personally call anyone Nigger simply because it would offend them. But that puts it on no other higher level of seriousness that the words Spic, Faggot, Chink, etc. etc. To say it's automatically worse than any of those simply because society forces you to see that is simply wrong.

Maybe I haven't been clear but it is the CONTEXT of the word that has been my argument. If you think that the context and history of the word doesn't justify it as being a more offensive word to black people.....fine knock yourself out. Not for a second do I agree, but we already know this.

As for the other instances you and Brando have mentioned. Well they were racist situations. So what? I don't understand what and why they have anything to do with this particular subject? It's unfortunate for Brando that he got into that situation and I imagine it would have been quite harsh for him. The person you are talking about was clearly a moron. But apart from that........?

[The Postmaster General]

Whomever thinks cunt and fag isn't as offensive as nigger should see what happens if you refer to a woman in a group as a cunt, or a homosexual in a group as a fag.

Michael Richards was offensive because he was pissed off. It's pretty obvious he was going to an extreme, and he readily admits that. I've never heard Damon Wayans or Chris Rock saying "nigger" to express that they are pissed off at someone. That's the difference. If either of those guys used the word "honky" or "cracker" it would make no difference because they aren't using those words to express that they are pissed off at someone.

Also, I've never heard Chris Rock or Damon Wayans retort to a white man that if he came down to South Central that they would have jacked his car and gang raped his wife - ie. using speech to invoke deep rooted racial fears.

I don't care what color you are, or what words you use to do it - You don't get pissed off at people and yell at them, and if you do so in a comedy club, you better make sure that they people at least think you are being funny. That's where Richards failed - racial slurs aside, anger aside - he was a comedian in a comedy club who seriously FAILED his audience.

If Michael Richards had been funny about his racial slurs, there wouldn't be a controversy. It's that simple, and we're here furiously debating the history of the n-word.

The analogies used in this thread have made even me cringe.

[inglourious basterd]

I personally disagree with a lot of the opinion in this thread. I've been following it relatively closely. Not for any particular reason, but I have been.

Richards was not heckled. The person who "heckled" Richards was part of a party and was simply getting situated with his large party and getting drinks. They were being patrons for the place that pays him. The owners of the comedy club vouch that this was the case and Richards has subsequently banned from the club.

Richards exploded. And he was angry when he had his tirade on the black people. There was no indication that it was a joke. Apparently he was ranting about "niggers" for minutes -- the video only shows part of it. Because of the fact that his racial epithets are based in genuine anger, it is racist. When a man yells in anger "40 years ago, you would have been hanging in a tree with a fork in your ass for doing that", its not funny, its racist, and its offensive. If he's genuinely seeking treatment and cultural training, thats good. But he did undeniably show some racist tendencies that night.

My whole beleif is that if you want people to stop using the word then ALL people need to stop using it. A black person has no right to get mad at a white person for saying it if they're just going to say it themselves. It's hypocritical to do that.

I don't think that its hypocritical. I don't know if white people realize that black people generally don't call each other "nigger".

They call each other "nigga", which is a variant of the word turned positive. I'm not saying that its right, but when one black guy calls his friend "nigga", its a completely different word with completely different connotations. Context is something that most people fail to consider when they debate this issue.

And I want you guys to realize that black people don't go around calling everyone "nigga". They only do it with people that they're mutually comfortable with. They'd never go to an elder black man and call him a nigga, for instance. I've even seen white people use "nigga" with black people they're comfortable with. But white people simply can't disrespectfully go in with a group of black people they dont know and say "whats up my nigga". It simply makes no sense.

I'm not saying that the use of the word "nigga" is okay. But it happens. White people have to understand that its not the same context when they say it, unless they are able to establish that context.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
Please explain to me why cunt is, as, an offensive word as ni***er? Why is it so offensive? Because of the age of the word? Nonsense. There are hundreds, thousands of racist remarks or vulgar terms that are all terrible. But none have the hatred and history and context that ni**er does. It's rediculous that it's being compared to cunt in insulting terms.

The fact you think coon sounds worse than ni***er ends my participation in this. Because we are on two different levels of discussion. I understand where you are coming from I just have no idea why or how people have this view?

Different folks.........

Dude you totally misinterpreted me. The age thing was simply a response to those who were saying that the origins of "nigger" go far beyond any other racial vulgarity.


"Nigger" has a worse history, without a doubt, but what I'm saying is that "cunt" and "faggot" can be used in a context that's just as bad. Hell, I'd say that right now "faggot" is worse because when people say "nigger" 99% of the time it's casual.


What you and some of the other people here are doing is you're only looking at the history of the word and not the way it's impacting society right now. Maybe if you look at it that way then you'll understand why people think differently.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
Dude you totally misinterpreted me. The age thing was simply a response to those who were saying that the origins of "nigger" go far beyond any other racial vulgarity.

My bad if I misunderstood your argument but it was this line that elicited my question:

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
Disagree? Too bad, because "cunt" and "faggot" have been around for ages....in fact, I think they've been around longer than "nigger."

My mind swithced into respond mode after I read that, missing your other points.


Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
"Nigger" has a worse history, without a doubt, but what I'm saying is that "cunt" and "faggot" can be used in a context that's just as bad. Hell, I'd say that right now "faggot" is worse because when people say "nigger" 99% of the time it's casual.

What you and some of the other people here are doing is you're only looking at the history of the word and not the way it's impacting society right now. Maybe if you look at it that way then you'll understand why people think differently.

When black people are saying nigger to each other, I believe like psudoazn, that they re-hash the word to nigga. It is used more in a comfortable enviroment by people comfortable with this term - in it's context.

99% of the time it's spoken between black people it's probably casual. That's not even a stat that means anything outside of that group though.

When nigger is used in a racist way. The hatred and weight behind the context it's used in to me at least far outweighs any other insult. People can beleive what they want. It's not for me to tell them. Like i've said I understand their pov. I just don't understand how they can think that way.

[ZenDude]

I'm tired of hearing it as well. And screw WHORIA Alred for wanting to get money for these two black guys as well. And a big F.U to Jesse Jackson for calling for a boycott on the Seinfeld Season 7 dvd and it actually selling QUITE WELL! :D

[LedZeppelin1114]

Originally posted by ZenDude
I'm tired of hearing it as well. And screw WHORIA Alred for wanting to get money for these two black guys as well. And a big F.U to Jesse Jackson for calling for a boycott on the Seinfeld Season 7 dvd and it actually selling QUITE WELL! :D

I think while we all hold some different views on the Richards controversy, we can all come to a consensus that Jackson is in fact a douche.

[dreamcurls]

Originally posted by bucket
If you're gonna play the comedy circuit the can expect to be heckled. ;)

Good point. You need thick skin. It would have taken a bigger man to just ignore the hecklers and move on.

[starcat]

the power should be taken out of the word...how is racism gonna ever do if a word still has that much power...and with the rise of rap music and urban movies in the last 20 years, many people dont even think of the racist text of the word unless they here some of the ignorant speak. i realize that the word might be offensive to the older black people...and thats cool... but the younger crowd, that use the word like a hundred times a day should know when someones talking if they are being racist...or just talking like snoop, dre, 2pac, menace to society and boys in the hood taught them... im white and use the word all the time... but not racially, ive just heard the word in popular culture so many times in the last 20 years that its just been burned into my vocabulary... but for some reason, in a time when more white people then ever are trying be cool with black people...black people are hating on whites more than ever for things that dont have anything to do with anyone around now adays... except for a few old people, and they have been around long enough to actually see the progress...

[inglourious basterd]

Originally posted by starcat
the power should be taken out of the word...

Ascribing meaning to words is not necessarily a bad thing. Think about the meaning that "I love you" or "you can do it" can potentially have on someone.

People just need to have the self control, common sense, and decency to understand that words do have weight.

If someone says something thats hurtful or hateful, I get hurt. It doesn't matter what the words are. The point to my rant? The power of the n word wont disappear anytime soon. Instead of making excuses about how things ought to be, people need to have some respect and listen to why its offensive.

black people are hating on whites more than ever for things that dont have anything to do with anyone around now adays... except for a few old people, and they have been around long enough to actually see the progress...

This type of rhetoric is what keeps the cycle of racism going. I understand that there are a lot of black people that are racist. But IMO its more of a sociological issue than a racial issue.

[thedamnwolfman]

Originally posted by starcat
... but for some reason, in a time when more white people then ever are trying be cool with black people...black people are hating on whites more than ever for things that dont have anything to do with anyone around now adays... except for a few old people, and they have been around long enough to actually see the progress...

i really like how this was written. Anywho.

Anything that tarnishes the whole Sienfeld legacy makes me smile. If only to momentarily wipe that smug grin off that cocksuckers face. God that show was fucking awful.

Anyway, the public embarrassment and probable career death that Micheal has brought upon himself is punishment enough. I kind of feel sorry for the guy. Can you imagine the last great thing you ever did was 1989’s UHF? Sad bastard.

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by thedamnwolfman
God that show was fucking awful.




Really?

[thedamnwolfman]

Yeah, really. That show is painful. Why is it so surprising that someone thinks that it’s awful?

Maybe you need an example of how this show is to me. If you have ever seen children’s programming and been unfulfilled because the audience they were aiming at was children, that’s how this show makes me feel. Its not that I don’t get it. Oh I fucking get it, it’s just not funny. It is not amazing, it is not the greatest TV show in the world. It’s a waste of a half hour.

I really can’t decide which is worse Seinfeld or Friends. Both Awful!

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by thedamnwolfman
I really can’t decide which is worse Seinfeld or Friends. Both Awful!



I will agree with you on Friends. That show is painfully unfunny.

[The FamilyJulas]

I hate Friends too, but Seinfeld is one of my favorite shows. I guess all i can say on the Richards controversy, well, he has fucked himself in the ass more than the Seinfeld curse has.

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by The FamilyJulas
I guess all i can say on the Richards controversy, well, he has fucked himself in the ass more than the Seinfeld curse has.


Maybe this is the Seinfeld curse.

[The FamilyJulas]

Originally posted by therealjohng
Maybe this is the Seinfeld curse. I think it only pertains to their professional faliures since the show ended, even though the incident took place at a comedy club. But it could be the curse, who the fuck knows? The man will never work again eitherway...

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by The FamilyJulas
The man will never work again eitherway...



Nah, Wal-Mart will hire anyone.

[jaw2929]

Originally posted by thedamnwolfman
Anything that tarnishes the whole Sienfeld legacy makes me smile. If only to momentarily wipe that smug grin off that cocksuckers face. God that show was fucking awful.

Could it be...? It... It... Oh my god! SOMEONE ELSE ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS WHAT A PIECE OF FUCKING UN-FUNNY GARBAGE SEINFELD ACTUALLY IS/WAS!!!!

Wow... And I thought I was the only one! Glad to know I'm not alone, I loathe Jerry Seinfeld and his shitty fucking asinine bullshit fucking show!

[Deadite914]

the one thing I have agreed with most in this conversation most is that we should forgive and forget about micheal's outbreak. He's clearly very sorry about what he did.

Now as far as slurs in general, I'm not a minority. Not black, not jewish, not italian, not gay, not latino, not middle eastern, not a women not anything. But, I think no slur is worse then the other in my mind. spic, nigger, dune coon, faggot, hymie, kike, bitch, cunt, what ever. they all have history. Jews being massacred, wemon not having rights, gays being beaten to death and not being able to marry, mexican people being constently ripped on for social statis and not getting well paid or respected jobs, black people and being enslaved and after earning the freedom still being discriminated against until the 60's, Middleastern and arab people being nuked, prosicuted, made fun of, beaten etc... The way I see it, all these different races have had it bad, none of which have had the worst. the words are still rude and hurtfull no matter which history goes the furthist. there all bad names and nobody likes being tourmented for their race.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by Trail_Blazer
Could it be...? It... It... Oh my god! SOMEONE ELSE ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS WHAT A PIECE OF FUCKING UN-FUNNY GARBAGE SEINFELD ACTUALLY IS/WAS!!!!

Wow... And I thought I was the only one! Glad to know I'm not alone, I loathe Jerry Seinfeld and his shitty fucking asinine bullshit fucking show!


You two aren't the only ones. I thought it was a piece of shit as well. That and Jackass. Waste of fucking time/money/semen.

[inglourious basterd]

Originally posted by Deadite914
the one thing I have agreed with most in this conversation most is that we should forgive and forget about micheal's outbreak. He's clearly very sorry about what he did.

I am not upset at Michael Richards. There are bigger problems in the world than him. But is he really sorry? Or is he regretful that he just screwed over his career because he couldn't keep his cool?
I think that it is more the latter than the former.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by psudoazn
I am not upset at Michael Richards. There are bigger problems in the world than him. But is he really sorry? Or is he regretful that he just screwed over his career because he couldn't keep his cool?
I think that it is more the latter than the former.


That's the major crux of the argument. People who believe he is sorry. And people who believe he is sorry for his career.

[Deadite914]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
That's the major crux of the argument. People who believe he is sorry. And people who believe he is sorry for his career.

In that case, he is sorry for both. but the point is hes sorry. he said hes sorry, even if he is saying it out of sorrow for his career. And Im damn sure that hes not gonna do it again.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by Deadite914
In that case, he is sorry for both. but the point is hes sorry. he said hes sorry, even if he is saying it out of sorrow for his career. And Im damn sure that hes not gonna do it again.


What a rediculous statement.

Being sorry because you're genuinely sorry is alot different to being sorry because you're worried you just fucked up your career.

Christ.

[Tagia_Romero]

In a comedy act, especially stand-up, you are always prone to hecklery, and there is no law to stop you from verbally putting the heckler in their place. However, racial slur used in a genuinely insulting way (that is to offend with malicious intent) shouldn't be tolerated.

There's a fine line with a slur being part of a comedy act and then there is knowingly insulting people in the audience because of their race or caste *whatever you wish to call it*.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that this is the most attention he's received since Seinfeld went off the air. If anything this could, in some odd way, benefit his career.

[The FamilyJulas]

Originally posted by therealjohng
Nah, Wal-Mart will hire anyone. http://www.joblo.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Deadite914]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that this is the most attention he's received since Seinfeld went off the air. If anything this could, in some odd way, benefit his career.

a good point.

[Deadite914]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
What a rediculous statement.

Being sorry because you're genuinely sorry is alot different to being sorry because you're worried you just fucked up your career.

Christ.

I know that there two different things. I'm sayin that he could be both sorry about fucking his career and sorry that he affended those people. But the point I was trying to make is that it happened, he said hes sorry and that we aren't or shouldn't be expecting any more racial outbursts, so everyone should move on. And if people stay mad at him forever, I think they need to move on. I'm sure that jewish people have forgiven Jesse Jackson for calling manhatten "hymie town" and forgiven that guy from public enemy for saying "the jews are wicked".

[Jim H]

I don't really have a lot to add, except to say that cunt actually has a relatively unique position in English. It's essentially the only recognized word which refers to the entirety of female genitalia (other than 'genitals', of course). Every other word normally refers to just internal or external genitals (and there isn't really any equivalent for male genitalia as a whole).

The history of the word is also interesting, as it is much less acceptable now than it once was. Ya know, back in the days of Gropecunt Lanes.

[Kevin Smith fan]

The whole thing is absurd. You didn't see people running in the streets when Borat came out crying for Cohen's head, nor Jamie Kennedy's when he dropped the 'N' bomb in "Malibu's Most Wanted". Richards was trying to run with the disturbance and make it part of his act and got very carried away. End of story, leave him alone.

On the other hand, do you think there would have been the same reaction if Eminem went on stage during a concert and let the same word slip during a performance? Hell no. But I don't see why ANYONE white or black should be aloud to use the word if this much controversy arises over one slip of the tounge.

[The Postmaster General]

Does anyone here ever call their friends "Ass Hole" or "Dick Head" in a playful, joking manner? I know other people do this.

Seriously, how can someone equate hanging out with like-minded individuals, and tossing around insults with one another, to getting angry and tossing insults at complete strangers?

How the hell? Just because people are cool with hearing insulting words from people they are okay with, that doesn't mean everyone has a free pass to use those insults.

"Well they said it too!" - No joke, this is like the argument an 8 year old would give to a teacher.

I tell you - I think Richards got it laid on him a bit hard too, but not because I think it was totally groovy for him to drop a bunch of insults. I think he got off too hard, because people had no fucking clue what he did wrong. Richards wasn't funny and that's the main point of all of this. If he actually said something FUNNY using the word "nigger" I doubt anyone would have a problem.