Don't feel too sorry for Duke players

[Lynn7]

This article was written by ABC's Terry Moran. I think the tone of his article is so hateful. These guys have just been cleared after being wrongfully accused of rape and reviled for all this time and now, days later, Moran accuses them of being rich and that their behavior was horrible that night. Why? They hired some stippers and asked that one of them should be white. It is said that there were racial slurs yelled that night but it does not say what or who did it. It makes it sound like it was one of these three. And, he even says one of them had been accused of assualt in the past but gives us no details about that assault charge- he just leaves it hanging out there making him look like he is evil.

I am a conservative and I don't approve of stripping or strippers but I don't see people as evil who watch them. It is part of our culture, right?And yet this guy uses this to judge them on. And they must be racist if they asked if one stripper should be white. Yeesh! Our media at work.

Article (http://blogs.abcnews.com/terrymoran/2007/04/dont_feel_too_s_1.html)

[The Heart Collector]

I can honestly say that if I had the amount of money they have, I'd do even worse things.

[The Postmaster General]

"Hey guys, it think it would be more responsible to spend the hundreds extra to have strippers come to our house, that way we won't have to risk drinking and driving. Of course, we won't put any expectations on the strippers, this is totally about safety."

I guess that could have happened.

Seriously, I don't know how you can not sympathize with a woman who dresses provocatively and gets raped (Filipino raped by Marines) , but you feel real bad for guys who hire private stripper, and end up looking bad.

Strippers really aren't in a business that allows them to get police involved over nothing. These guys have dirt on their hands, and everyone damn well knows it. Guys hire strippers al the time, and you never hear about stuff like this (false accusations made). These guys did something.

[jolanar]

If I was going to hire strippers you damn right I would want every one of them to be white. That's just what I'm attracted to. I would also want them to be skinny and have large breasts. I guess I'm a weightist and a sizeist too.

[Thrizzle]

I'm just glad people are finally looking out for the rich white disenfranchised young men of America. It's been too long!

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
"Hey guys, it think it would be more responsible to spend the hundreds extra to have strippers come to our house, that way we won't have to risk drinking and driving. Of course, we won't put any expectations on the strippers, this is totally about safety."

I guess that could have happened.

Seriously, I don't know how you can not sympathize with a woman who dresses provocatively and gets raped (Filipino raped by Marines) , but you feel real bad for guys who hire private stripper, and end up looking bad.

Strippers really aren't in a business that allows them to get police involved over nothing. These guys have dirt on their hands, and everyone damn well knows it. Guys hire strippers al the time, and you never hear about stuff like this (false accusations made). These guys did something.

The thing I don't understand about liberalism is that liberals claim to love free speech and free sex and free access to porn, strippers etc, but then if something like this happens people who actually say something that is not PC (like Imus) or do something like hire strippers (like the Duke guys) they are treated like garbage. Guess you have to be a Democratic politician to get a pass on certain behaviors.

Here's the article about what happened that night:

Article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18110003/site/newsweek/)

Sounds like two of the guys weren't even there when the "dirty" stuff went on. Why blame them? Oh yeah, cause she accused them.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Thrizzle
I'm just glad people are finally looking out for the rich white disenfranchised young men of America. It's been too long!

Fairness should apply to all races and cultures. I thought we had gotten to that point. I didn't realize that white wealthier people were now fair game to target. They must deserve this treatment cause they were born to these families. Tough luck. Again, "liberalsim" is scaring me these days. It's not about morals anymore but about if you are In or out in popular culture. White wealthy boys are out. It is fair to pick at their flesh. They are strong and can take it.

[Thrizzle]

No that's not the point. The point is that as a group (rich white people) they dont have much to worry about. This, after all, received national attention but there are thousands of similar cases that dont and the victims (who are poor) get thrown in jail.

The thing I don't understand about liberalism is that liberals claim to love free speech and free sex and free access to porn, strippers

In Lynn's defense, those are the 4 basic tenets of liberalism.

[Vong]

Originally posted by Thrizzle
In Lynn's defense, those are the 4 basic tenets of liberalism.

Yeah, I'm sure John Locke was thinking about those when he wrote his Two Treatise...

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
The thing I don't understand about liberalism is that liberals claim to love free speech and free sex and free access to porn, strippers etc, but then if something like this happens people who actually say something that is not PC (like Imus) or do something like hire strippers (like the Duke guys) they are treated like garbage. Guess you have to be a Democratic politician to get a pass on certain behaviors.

Here's the article about what happened that night:

Article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18110003/site/newsweek/)

Sounds like two of the guys weren't even there when the "dirty" stuff went on. Why blame them? Oh yeah, cause she accused them.



Says you to the guy who spent half a thread denouncing prostitution and the sex industry. :rolleyes:

Ironically, I thought about calling you out for denouncing Clinton for similar behaviors, but decided it was different because he was a role model. However, you never had a problem with it because he was a role model - your problem was that it was immoral. Then you try to flip it around and use it against one of the people who think Clinton should not have done what he done. That's like some ultra-hypocracy, or I don't know what you call that. Ignorance of the person who's values you are trying to insult?

Then how you can use a bunch of frat boys pissing off a hired sex worker as a venue to defend Imus is beyond belief.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
The thing I don't understand about liberalism is that liberals claim to love free speech and free sex and free access to porn, strippers etc, but then if something like this happens people who actually say something that is not PC (like Imus) or do something like hire strippers (like the Duke guys) they are treated like garbage. Guess you have to be a Democratic politician to get a pass on certain behaviors.

Here's the article about what happened that night:

Article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18110003/site/newsweek/)

Sounds like two of the guys weren't even there when the "dirty" stuff went on. Why blame them? Oh yeah, cause she accused them.


The PC Police is nothing more than a subculture of liberalism. It's not fair to lump all liberals in that category. That would be like me lumping you in the category with all of the conservatives who accuse those who do not agree with President Bush as being un-American.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
That would be like me lumping you in the category with all of the conservatives who accuse those who do not agree with President Bush as being un-American.


Yeah, that's all good, but what you are forgetting is that she IS one of those people.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Yeah, that's all good, but what you are forgetting is that she IS one of those people.

Maybe, but she hasn't been as direct about it as, say, Beenthere....

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Guys hire strippers al the time, and you never hear about stuff like this (false accusations made). These guys did something.

If you have proof you might want to give it to Nifong before he's disbarred.

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Strippers really aren't in a business that allows them to get police involved over nothing. These guys have dirt on their hands, and everyone damn well knows it. Guys hire strippers al the time, and you never hear about stuff like this (false accusations made). These guys did something.


Didn't this woman do that exact same thing about 10 or so years ago? She claimed she was raped and then later said she wasn't? I know she didn't do that here, but it's hard to believe someone who has done this before (Claimed she was raped when there is no evidence) .

[bigred760]

I'm confused with the comparison between the Duke lacrosse players and the Rutgers women's basketball team. Both cases have racial issues, but the two are miles apart as far as any similarities are concerned.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by therealjohng
Didn't this woman do that exact same thing about 10 or so years ago? She claimed she was raped and then later said she wasn't? I know she didn't do that here, but it's hard to believe someone who has done this before (Claimed she was raped when there is no evidence) .


Rape is never an easy crime to prosecute. Its very emotionally and physically challenging for the victim to proceed with charges and a trial. Everyday you have to remember it so you can be a perfect witness on the stand when the trial comes, and then you have to hold your ground when the defense comes up to question you, most times very harshly and crudely. And then of course if its on the news for the whole world to hear, that just triples the pain and exhaustion.

Its hard to find victims who can hold up for so long under those conditions.

In the previous alleged rape case, it may have been true, however in that case the victim knew her attacker, and she was like 14 or 15 and I I believe he was from the neighborhood, which would make any rape victim reluctant to follow through with charges.

[Beenthere]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
"Hey guys, it think it would be more responsible to spend the hundreds extra to have strippers come to our house, that way we won't have to risk drinking and driving. Of course, we won't put any expectations on the strippers, this is totally about safety."

I guess that could have happened.

Seriously, I don't know how you can not sympathize with a woman who dresses provocatively and gets raped (Filipino raped by Marines) , but you feel real bad for guys who hire private stripper, and end up looking bad.

Strippers really aren't in a business that allows them to get police involved over nothing. These guys have dirt on their hands, and everyone damn well knows it. Guys hire strippers al the time, and you never hear about stuff like this (false accusations made). These guys did something.

Didn't we all do SOMETHING we are not proud of? Morally, I mean.

And please Bubba, don't take it away from me. Bitches and coo coo girls do exist.

Being rich, white and stupid do not make you a rapist. Imagination or false accusation of unstable person who happen to be a black woman can portray you this way.

[Beenthere]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
Maybe, but she hasn't been as direct about it as, say, Beenthere....

Excuse me?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Says you to the guy who spent half a thread denouncing prostitution and the sex industry. :rolleyes:

Ironically, I thought about calling you out for denouncing Clinton for similar behaviors, but decided it was different because he was a role model. However, you never had a problem with it because he was a role model - your problem was that it was immoral. Then you try to flip it around and use it against one of the people who think Clinton should not have done what he done. That's like some ultra-hypocracy, or I don't know what you call that. Ignorance of the person who's values you are trying to insult?

Then how you can use a bunch of frat boys pissing off a hired sex worker as a venue to defend Imus is beyond belief.

Liberal organizations fight for the rights of the sex industry. They are not typically morally outraged by sexuality in society in any form (except for pedophilia and bestiality). So now it is strange to see so many liberals condemning these college aged kids for taking part in watching strippers as Moran is doing.

Let's talk Clinton. If Clinton had been at a private party where there were strippers it wouldn't have been good for presidential behavior but it would have been his private life. I do take exception to a president having sex in the oval office with his employees or with an intern.And that goes for any president. If Bush was doing it I would despise his behavior the same.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
The PC Police is nothing more than a subculture of liberalism. It's not fair to lump all liberals in that category. That would be like me lumping you in the category with all of the conservatives who accuse those who do not agree with President Bush as being un-American.

I am not accusing all liberals of this but liberalism used to be known for its broad acceptance of all behaviors but don't you see a trend of intolerance- if you don't behave in a certain way or come from a certain background you are ostracized? These kids might actually be liberal for all we know. Yet, because they were born to families of possibly well to do parents (we don't know for sure) then they should not be felt bad for. What? These kids were totally victimized! College kids drink. College kids watch strippers. That does not mean they deserve to be treated like this. And then to say we should'nt feel too bad for them? YIkes!

I am upset at the way this culture is going. I do attribute it to a liberalism that is getting very lock step and you better beleive with the majority of liberals or else.

There are certain classes of people who can do and say anyhthng but there are others who are accused based on what they look like or what they have. Sound familar? We haven't come so far after all....

[The Postmaster General]

EVILxxx
If you have proof you might want to give it to Nifong before he's disbarred. [/QUOTE]


Why? I'm not accussing these guys of rape. I'm asserting that they put themselves in a situation that gets no sympathy from me.

If legal woes is the worst these guys got from pissing off a stripper, they are pretty damn lucky. Most would have seen that these guys were handled through more vigilant means.





Didn't this woman do that exact same thing about 10 or so years ago? She claimed she was raped and then later said she wasn't? I know she didn't do that here, but it's hard to believe someone who has done this before (Claimed she was raped when there is no evidence) .

I don't care, because I'm not hiring her to come into my house. You never know what you are getting with a random stripper, which is why I don't host these sorts of parties. Whether she was raped or not raped, pursuing charges is a pretty major burden on herself. I don't know the details, but its pretty obvious something set her off.


Beenthere:

Didn't we all did SOMETHING we are not proud of? Morally, I mean.

And please Bubba, don't take it away from me. Bitches and coo coo girls do exist.

Being rich, white and stupid do not make you a rapist. Imagination or false accusation of unstable person who happen to be a black woman can portray you this way.


I don't care if they didn't rape her, I don't feel sorry for them. Maybe al lthey did was wipe their dick off in her hair and she'd just paid to go to the stylist, and that set her off - whatever, it's pretty far gone a stereotype of a stripper causing problems with the cops - in trouble with the cops, maybe, but they aren't exactly the Crime Stopper patrol - These guys most likely treated her like shit and this is her way of making it straight - who knows? Ho knows! All I know is I don't feel bad for them. It was money that got them into the problem & money that got them out.

These were guys, 18-21, who hired strippers to perform at a private party. Sure there were expectations.

Rose McGowan has apparently dated members of the team and seems to have no problem stating they are not good people - whatever her word is worth, obviously she hasn't much to gain by lying.

I'd really like to know how many of those guys were on scholarship.


Lynn7:

Liberal organizations fight for the rights of the sex industry. They are not typically morally outraged by sexuality in society in any form (except for pedophilia and bestiality). So now it is strange to see so many liberals condemning these college aged kids for taking part in watching strippers as Moran is doing.

Let's talk Clinton. If Clinton had been at a private party where there were strippers it wouldn't have been good for presidential behavior but it would have been his private life. I do take exception to a president having sex in the oval office with his employees or with an intern.And that goes for any president. If Bush was doing it I would despise his behavior the same.

Lynn, I can't have a conversation with you if every point I make turns into a discussion about how you see Liberals, especially when what I'm saying has no correlation with the liberal views you keep asserting. About liberals & free speech: Wasn't it Liberals who in part started the parents group against record labels? I don't know but this realy has nothing to do with anything I said, despite how much you wish it was what I did say.

And what? You're saying it's cool with you if presidents have stripper parties? Surely you jest! I'm glad these guys weren't being accused of traveling to Thailand to have sex with minors!

[Beenthere]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove


Beenthere:




I don't care if they didn't rape her, I don't feel sorry for them. Maybe al lthey did was wipe their dick off in her hair and she'd just paid to go to the stylist, and that set her off - whatever, it's pretty far gone a stereotype of a stripper causing problems with the cops - in trouble with the cops, maybe, but they aren't exactly the Crime Stopper patrol - These guys most likely treated her like shit and this is her way of making it straight - who knows? Ho knows! All I know is I don't feel bad for them. It was money that got them into the problem & money that got them out.

These were guys, 18-21, who hired strippers to perform at a private party. Sure there were expectations.




[/B]


I don't feel sorry either. But don't you think, in case if they did not do much and paid in all meanings of the word too much for that, that's now better time to concentrate instead on a climate in the country where New Black Panthers members can say so much about the racism while openly being racists themselves? Or Nifong and his "good" intensions. Or how to really support "unstable" without making it poor vs. rich again.
As for expectations... Most of the time it's strippers who expect to earn a little bit more than tips for stripping.

[The Postmaster General]

I haven't even commented on the racial side of it, nor do I want to. One thing I agree with Lynn on is that the media needs more reigns. Now I don't mean restrictions, but regulations. At least people need to stop paying so much attention.

[shoe1985]

I doubt we will ever really know what happened between the people involved, similar to the Kobe thing.

The stripper could have been looking for a way to get money.

The Duke guys could have thought nobody would have found out.

Really, there are so many things here that could of happened. It is known that the Duke guys had money, and as we know, money talks. So, they could of paid her off too, and kept it hush hush.

I honestly feel if they did rape this woman, they should be sitting behind bars right now. She was doing a job, and that is it. It is a degrading job, but not everyone is rich, and must do some bad things to get ahead in life. It is a sad story, but hopefully everyone involved can move forward.

[EVILxxx]

I'm willing to bet that had the Duke players done anything serious they wouldn't be harping on this anymore. It would probably be to the effect of "We just want to put this awful mess behind us."

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
I'm willing to bet that had the Duke players done anything serious they wouldn't be harping on this anymore. It would probably be to the effect of "We just want to put this awful mess behind us."

Or another way to say, "We broke the law, and got away with it." Look at OJ, he had so much evidence against him, yet got out free. He even wrote a book on how he would have killed the two people. These guys could make a lot of money off of a book and/or movie from this.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove


Lynn7:



Lynn, I can't have a conversation with you if every point I make turns into a discussion about how you see Liberals, especially when what I'm saying has no correlation with the liberal views you keep asserting. About liberals & free speech: Wasn't it Liberals who in part started the parents group against record labels? I don't know but this realy has nothing to do with anything I said, despite how much you wish it was what I did say.

And what? You're saying it's cool with you if presidents have stripper parties? Surely you jest! I'm glad these guys weren't being accused of traveling to Thailand to have sex with minors!

Maybe it is because I used to be a liberal that I rebel at the way liberals have evolved. And there are many people who used to be Democrat and have gone over to become Repulbican because of how the liberals have changed the direction of the Democratic party. Bill Bennet for one.
REally, would liberalism be as popular if the media wasn't promoting it 24/7 and the schools weren't teaching the agenda especially in most of the colleges where the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal? Would people naturally grow toward liberalism if left without any shaping by outside forces? Doubtful.

Tipper Gore started that labeling group and she was shunned and reviled for it in the liberal community. She was targetted regularly by many of the cool folk. She only became "acceptable" because they were associated with the popular Clintons.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove


Lynn7:



Lynn, I can't have a conversation with you if every point I make turns into a discussion about how you see Liberals, especially when what I'm saying has no correlation with the liberal views you keep asserting. About liberals & free speech: Wasn't it Liberals who in part started the parents group against record labels? I don't know but this realy has nothing to do with anything I said, despite how much you wish it was what I did say.

And what? You're saying it's cool with you if presidents have stripper parties? Surely you jest! I'm glad these guys weren't being accused of traveling to Thailand to have sex with minors!

Maybe it is because I used to be a liberal that I rebel at the way liberals have evolved. And there are many people who used to be Democrat and have gone over to become Repulbican because of how the liberals have changed the direction of the Democratic party. Bill Bennet for one.
REally, would liberalism be as popular if the media wasn't promoting it 24/7 and the schools weren't teaching the agenda especially in most of the colleges where the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal? Would people naturally grow toward liberalism if left without any shaping by outside forces? Doubtful.

Tipper Gore started that labeling group and she was shunned and reviled for it in the liberal community. She was targetted regularly by many of the cool folk. She only became "acceptable" because they were associated with the popular Clintons.

And now these kids can be reviled because they are maybe wealthy and had the audacity to hire strippers which I'm sure they thought was totally acceptable behavior for college kids.

And Rose MCGowan knew these Duke Lacrosse players? I wonder how in the world that could've happened. Wasn't she Marilyn Manson's wife until recently?

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Maybe it is because I used to be a liberal that I rebel at the way liberals have evolved.


You and Vong should have your own sitcom.

[Thrizzle]

Originally posted by Lynn7
REally, would liberalism be as popular if the media wasn't promoting it 24/7 and the schools weren't teaching the agenda especially in most of the colleges where the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal?

I'll buy my plane tickets now so i can get a head start when the book burning begins.

[AceD]

"I'm willing to bet that had the Duke players done anything serious they wouldn't be harping on this anymore. It would probably be to the effect of "We just want to put this awful mess behind us.""

You're of course allowed to have that opinion, but I'd say it's awfully hard for anyone not in that situation (accused and convicted by the media of a horrible crime you didn't commit) to say that they would or wouldn't be doing. They can't just sink away and forget about it...these kids are going to need jobs and hometowns and such in the future, right? I could definatly see that if they believe they did nothing wrong they would do everything they could to make that clear to everyone. I think they are more than entitled to sue Nifong, and they are incredibly entitled to recieve apologies from Jesse Jackson and everyone else who badmouthed them, but that will never happen.

"would liberalism be as popular if the media wasn't promoting it 24/7 and the schools weren't teaching the agenda especially in most of the colleges where the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal?"

People form opinion and ideas based on a lot more than what they get from the media. Think about how inclusiveness, care for the poor, respect for other people's opinons....those are the things a lot of "liberals" care about and those are the things that are very attractive about liberalism, to young people especially. To many people conservatism is about disrepecting or eliminating dissenting opinons, accumulating personal wealth at any cost, etc etc...I'm NOT saying that is all conservatives, but that's what the most powerful ones convey as important. Obviously you can say it is the media that makes these portrayals, but you can only twist someone's words and actions to a point, -- the media can't be blamed for it all, especially when a major news network is so absurdly conservative that it's almost impossible to tell the diference between the actual broadcasts and parodies of it.

Also, this idea that "the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal"...again, that's a media portrayl of poular and divisive ones, not the whole.

The kids certainly made some dumb decisions, but the attitude that they deserve our hate and disdain and lack of sypathy even though they didn't do anything wrong in the eyes of the law is absurd and cruel.

And there is no comparasin to OJ, since we never saw any real evidence against these guys.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by AceD
The kids certainly made some dumb decisions, but the attitude that they deserve our hate and disdain and lack of sypathy even though they didn't do anything wrong in the eyes of the law is absurd and cruel.

Likewise, though, they don't exactly deserve advocation. This, to me, is the equivalent of the girls becoming embarrassed by their appearances on "Wild" videos. They are lucky that looking like asses is the worst that happened given the situation. At least they got a life lesson. All we got was bad media.

[AceD]

"Likewise, though, they don't exactly deserve advocation. This, to me, is the equivalent of the girls becoming embarrassed by their appearances on "Wild" videos. They are lucky that looking like asses is the worst that happened given the situation. At least they got a life lesson. All we got was bad media."

Well put. I totally agree that they deserve no praise, and hopefully in addition to their own realizations they have people in their ear screaming how lucky they were that evidence exonerated them, that as you said this is the worst thing they've been through, and how stupid they acted before, during and after that whole evening.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
You and Vong should have your own sitcom.

I love it when I take the time to respond to your post and this is the response I got. I thought my point on the Tipper Gore case was fabulous, too. :D

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by AceD

"would liberalism be as popular if the media wasn't promoting it 24/7 and the schools weren't teaching the agenda especially in most of the colleges where the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal?"

People form opinion and ideas based on a lot more than what they get from the media. Think about how inclusiveness, care for the poor, respect for other people's opinons....those are the things a lot of "liberals" care about and those are the things that are very attractive about liberalism, to young people especially. To many people conservatism is about disrepecting or eliminating dissenting opinons, accumulating personal wealth at any cost, etc etc...I'm NOT saying that is all conservatives, but that's what the most powerful ones convey as important. Obviously you can say it is the media that makes these portrayals, but you can only twist someone's words and actions to a point, -- the media can't be blamed for it all, especially when a major news network is so absurdly conservative that it's almost impossible to tell the diference between the actual broadcasts and parodies of it.

Also, this idea that "the vast majority of the nations' professors are liberal"...again, that's a media portrayl of poular and divisive ones, not the whole.

The kids certainly made some dumb decisions, but the attitude that they deserve our hate and disdain and lack of sypathy even though they didn't do anything wrong in the eyes of the law is absurd and cruel.

And there is no comparasin to OJ, since we never saw any real evidence against these guys.


"Think about how inclusiveness, care for the poor, respect for other people's opinons....those are the things a lot of "liberals" care about and those are the things that are very attractive about liberalism, to young people especially."

It is nice that the media presents the liberals like this so the young people can find them appealing. To me, liberals beleive in charging very high taxes they say is to help the poor but this money is often lost in pork or in highly inflated government salaries that are given to political cronies. I just found out that a city employee was making $75,000 a year in salary for construction work. Does that seem like it is helping the poor?

Respect for others opinions? Like the way Presdient Bush and people who agree with his OPINION of the war on terror are called killers and stupid etc. That is some respect there.

Inclusivness? Inclusiveness if you believe in gay marriage and are pro-abortion and anti-Iraq war. If you are not in this subset you are not going to find inclusiveness applies to you. You will be thrown out of the club. Look at Joe Lieberman. Loyal Dem sentator for years, but now he was thrown out based on his one belief that went astray from the fold.







"To many people conservatism is about disrepecting or eliminating dissenting opinons, accumulating personal wealth at any cost, etc etc..."

Now where would you have gotten this idea from? Could it be the media portrayal of conservatism? Why is it that study after study has announced that it is conservatives that contribute the most money (their own money) to charities- and these are the working class conservatives that do this. How can we be about personal wealth at all costs if we give so much of our money away? And that is in addition to the taxes we pay.

We are not inclusive in that we do beleive in a certain philosophy so that is true. But we do not hate people who disagree with us. But we do debate for our beliefs. Arent we allowed to do that? That is not disrespecting or eliminating dissenting opinions. That is debate and success through the poliitcal system. We are at a disadvantage when the majority of the media is liberal and everything is presented through that lens of distortion.


And one more point- recently at universities across the US when conservative speakers come to speak they are greeted by "liberal" audiences that do not allow them to speak. They heckle and boo them until they cannot be heard and are forced to leave. And how about those military recruiters who dared show up at college campus job fairs and were forced to leave for fear the rioting would hurt people. Does that sound like a political philosophy that respects others opionions or decisions? They are doing what you accuse the conservatives of doing- eliminating dissenting opinions. And yet the conservatives are charged with this when the evidence shows that the liberals are the ones who practice it. But the media is the filter and so there we are.

[AceD]

"It is nice that the media presents the liberals like this so the young people can find them appealing. To me, liberals beleive in charging very high taxes they say is to help the poor but this money is often lost in pork or in highly inflated government salaries that are given to political cronies. I just found out that a city employee was making $75,000 a year in salary for construction work. Does that seem like it is helping the poor?"

I never said the portrayal or general idea is 100% accurate, I just said it's how a lot of people think of it. And there are a lot of liberals who genuinely do care and desire to help the poor. And your example is sorta useless because we could go back and forth pulling stats on specific conservatives and liberals who do dumb stuff. As a whole, the party does care more about helping the poor financially, and it's always been that way.

"Inclusivness? Inclusiveness if you believe in gay marriage and are pro-abortion and anti-Iraq war. If you are not in this subset you are not going to find inclusiveness applies to you."

Pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro anti-War? Detach your own personal belief system from it: if you didn't have a problem with homosexuality (which is obviously a moral choice for you and your certainly welcome to that) of course you'd want to allow them to get married, right? I mean, why limit their ability to live happily just because we don't like their lifestyle? That's what I mean by inclusiveness. You can't apply your own moral laws to the world and expect people to abide by them, especially ones that SEEM pointless and hateful (like being anti-gay marriage). I'm NOT saying you hate gay people or anything like that, but if someone has no moral opinon of it, why wouldn't they want to allow gay marriage? The idea that gay marriage, regardless of your opinion of the rightness of it, will destroy "the fabric of the American family" is hogwash...I'm pretty sure divorce did that a while ago.

"Now where would you have gotten this idea from? Could it be the media portrayal of conservatism? Why is it that study after study has announced that it is conservatives that contribute the most money (their own money) to charities- and these are the working class conservatives that do this. How can we be about personal wealth at all costs if we give so much of our money away? And that is in addition to the taxes we pay."

Again, I'm not saying that ALL conservatives are like this, or even most, the whole point of my post is why people seem attracted to liberalism. I think it's clear that on a "normal" person level, conservatives do give more. I'm talking, again, about the ones we see. The televangelists who ask for money so they can spread the Word of God and help the poor while they preach in $1,000 dollar suits and never open a Bible. Again, I'm talking people's idea, not necessarily the truth.

"We are not inclusive in that we do beleive in a certain philosophy so that is true. But we do not hate people who disagree with us."

I'm not saying you do, but yet again that's the picture people get. And it's not just the twisting of the media, it's the powerful conservatives wasting their beath on issues of morality that they can't expect everyone to agree with.

"But we do debate for our beliefs. Arent we allowed to do that? That is not disrespecting or eliminating dissenting opinions. That is debate and success through the poliitcal system. We are at a disadvantage when the majority of the media is liberal and everything is presented through that lens of distortion"

You're certainly allowed to campaign for whatever beliefs you want, as I said I just think conservatism would be better served not trying to infringe moral issues like gay marriage onto people that aren't going to buy that, or at least aren't going to for the right reasons (i.e. thinking it's gross is not a good reason -- morally speaking, the Bible spends a lot more time railing against sexual sins other than homosedxuality).

And I do think you are at a disadvantage, not because conservatives don't have a hold in the media, but because where they do (do I even need to say it?) is so absurdly ridiculous and loud and stupid that no one can take it seriously. And yes, CNN and many others are undoubtably far too left-leaning.

"And one more point- recently at universities across the US when conservative speakers come to speak they are greeted by "liberal" audiences that do not allow them to speak. They heckle and boo them until they cannot be heard and are forced to leave. And how about those military recruiters who dared show up at college campus job fairs and were forced to leave for fear the rioting would hurt people. Does that sound like a political philosophy that respects others opionions or decisions? They are doing what you accuse the conservatives of doing- eliminating dissenting opinions. And yet the conservatives are charged with this when the evidence shows that the liberals are the ones who practice it. But the media is the filter and so there we are."

Now I know your far too intelligent to think there aren't conservatives who do the same thing. YEs, there are some moronic and stupid people who invade meetings and throw things and make asses of themselves. Again, it's not their "political philosophy" to do that, it's what a few fringe people and groups choose to do. Groups that describe themselves as conservative are going to Virginia Tech to claim that the school got what it deserved for bad moral choices -- would you want people to think that's what all conservative would do? Of course not. It's a fringe group.

Again, Lynn, I'm not coming down on you or your beliefs or anything, I'm just stating my opinon why a lot of young people are attracted to liberalism.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I love it when I take the time to respond to your post and this is the response I got. I thought my point on the Tipper Gore case was fabulous, too. :D



My response was inline with what you were responding to: It's hard for me to engage in a discussion when you are not responding to me, but instead to these liberal ideas that are in you head. I don't really need to know *why* you are responding with seemingly random rants about liberals, when I am not making points from those particular ideals -- I just need you to know that it's like I'm saying one thing related to what you've said, then you reply with totally noncongruent statements, and that makes for a hard discussion on my end.

Yes, Tipper Gore, but I was mostly mentioning her to make sure you knew -- When you say the things you say about liberals, it's worth mentioning that you are unfairly attributing thing to other liberals with different ideas.

So, Tipper had backlash from other liberals about free speech issues? Bush has had backlash from conservatives. That doesn't make it anymore right for me to make cases based on the statement "conservatives are against the war." than it does for you to say what you said.

We're people, not stock ideals.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by AceD
"It is nice that the media presents the liberals like this so the young people can find them appealing. To me, liberals beleive in charging very high taxes they say is to help the poor but this money is often lost in pork or in highly inflated government salaries that are given to political cronies. I just found out that a city employee was making $75,000 a year in salary for construction work. Does that seem like it is helping the poor?"

I never said the portrayal or general idea is 100% accurate, I just said it's how a lot of people think of it. And there are a lot of liberals who genuinely do care and desire to help the poor. And your example is sorta useless because we could go back and forth pulling stats on specific conservatives and liberals who do dumb stuff. As a whole, the party does care more about helping the poor financially, and it's always been that way.

"Inclusivness? Inclusiveness if you believe in gay marriage and are pro-abortion and anti-Iraq war. If you are not in this subset you are not going to find inclusiveness applies to you."

Pro gay marriage, pro choice, pro anti-War? Detach your own personal belief system from it: if you didn't have a problem with homosexuality (which is obviously a moral choice for you and your certainly welcome to that) of course you'd want to allow them to get married, right? I mean, why limit their ability to live happily just because we don't like their lifestyle? That's what I mean by inclusiveness. You can't apply your own moral laws to the world and expect people to abide by them, especially ones that SEEM pointless and hateful (like being anti-gay marriage). I'm NOT saying you hate gay people or anything like that, but if someone has no moral opinon of it, why wouldn't they want to allow gay marriage? The idea that gay marriage, regardless of your opinion of the rightness of it, will destroy "the fabric of the American family" is hogwash...I'm pretty sure divorce did that a while ago.

"Now where would you have gotten this idea from? Could it be the media portrayal of conservatism? Why is it that study after study has announced that it is conservatives that contribute the most money (their own money) to charities- and these are the working class conservatives that do this. How can we be about personal wealth at all costs if we give so much of our money away? And that is in addition to the taxes we pay."

Again, I'm not saying that ALL conservatives are like this, or even most, the whole point of my post is why people seem attracted to liberalism. I think it's clear that on a "normal" person level, conservatives do give more. I'm talking, again, about the ones we see. The televangelists who ask for money so they can spread the Word of God and help the poor while they preach in $1,000 dollar suits and never open a Bible. Again, I'm talking people's idea, not necessarily the truth.

"We are not inclusive in that we do beleive in a certain philosophy so that is true. But we do not hate people who disagree with us."

I'm not saying you do, but yet again that's the picture people get. And it's not just the twisting of the media, it's the powerful conservatives wasting their beath on issues of morality that they can't expect everyone to agree with.

"But we do debate for our beliefs. Arent we allowed to do that? That is not disrespecting or eliminating dissenting opinions. That is debate and success through the poliitcal system. We are at a disadvantage when the majority of the media is liberal and everything is presented through that lens of distortion"

You're certainly allowed to campaign for whatever beliefs you want, as I said I just think conservatism would be better served not trying to infringe moral issues like gay marriage onto people that aren't going to buy that, or at least aren't going to for the right reasons (i.e. thinking it's gross is not a good reason -- morally speaking, the Bible spends a lot more time railing against sexual sins other than homosedxuality).

And I do think you are at a disadvantage, not because conservatives don't have a hold in the media, but because where they do (do I even need to say it?) is so absurdly ridiculous and loud and stupid that no one can take it seriously. And yes, CNN and many others are undoubtably far too left-leaning.

"And one more point- recently at universities across the US when conservative speakers come to speak they are greeted by "liberal" audiences that do not allow them to speak. They heckle and boo them until they cannot be heard and are forced to leave. And how about those military recruiters who dared show up at college campus job fairs and were forced to leave for fear the rioting would hurt people. Does that sound like a political philosophy that respects others opionions or decisions? They are doing what you accuse the conservatives of doing- eliminating dissenting opinions. And yet the conservatives are charged with this when the evidence shows that the liberals are the ones who practice it. But the media is the filter and so there we are."

Now I know your far too intelligent to think there aren't conservatives who do the same thing. YEs, there are some moronic and stupid people who invade meetings and throw things and make asses of themselves. Again, it's not their "political philosophy" to do that, it's what a few fringe people and groups choose to do. Groups that describe themselves as conservative are going to Virginia Tech to claim that the school got what it deserved for bad moral choices -- would you want people to think that's what all conservative would do? Of course not. It's a fringe group.

Again, Lynn, I'm not coming down on you or your beliefs or anything, I'm just stating my opinon why a lot of young people are attracted to liberalism.


"I never said the portrayal or general idea is 100% accurate, I just said it's how a lot of people think of it. And there are a lot of liberals who genuinely do care and desire to help the poor. And your example is sorta useless because we could go back and forth pulling stats on specific conservatives and liberals who do dumb stuff. As a whole, the party does care more about helping the poor financially, and it's always been that way. "

The way I see it, I think the people who really care for the poor are the ones who reach into their own pockets and give money to the poor instead of giving lip service to the idea of it. The smallest deed is bigger than the greatest intention.


"The televangelists who ask for money so they can spread the Word of God and help the poor while they preach in $1,000 dollar suits and never open a Bible. Again, I'm talking people's idea, not necessarily the truth."


Well, IMO that is totally voluntary. People are free to ask for donations and are free to give their money where they want to- unlike in the taxation system where people have no choice about where their money goes (like to $75,000 city jobs). But just for the record, I would never give my money to an evangelist who wears $1000 suits. Never. It shows they are not good stewards and any pastor who would spend $1000 on a suit is a very vain man and not a man who should be leading God's people. I also don't approve of the Pope wearing all those fancy robes and crowns when Jesus himself walked around dressed like a peasant. But hey, that's just me.




"You're certainly allowed to campaign for whatever beliefs you want, as I said I just think conservatism would be better served not trying to infringe moral issues like gay marriage onto people that aren't going to buy that, or at least aren't going to for the right reasons (i.e. thinking it's gross is not a good reason "


Well, we are allowed to vocie opinions on moral issues just like liberals are. Teh way you are saying it sounds like you are saying the liberals have the right position on this and the conservatives are so obviously wrong on these issues. I think we are right and you are wrong. Well the way we decide between the two opinions is through poltical debate and elections. You can't just say we would be better served not to infringe on moral issues. And the moral thing is not just about gay marriage, it is about so many different issues, like abortion, what is taught in schools, death penalty, euthanasia etc. I have not heard any serious conservative politicians speak against gay marriage cause they think it is gross. I agree that would be a dumb argument. The argument is usually expressed that be redefining marriage, it opens the door to all kinds of relationships and thus chips away at the institution altogether.



"Groups that describe themselves as conservative are going to Virginia Tech to claim that the school got what it deserved for bad moral choices -- would you want people to think that's what all conservative would do? Of course not. It's a fringe group."

The group you are talking about is a fringe group. It is one group that is composed mostly of one family. In the case of those groups who have been crushing the free speech by conservatives who have been invited to speak at colleges, are not just one group. It happens frequently and is practiced by many groups. It is getting to be a pattern in the debate world. Don't let the other side voice its opinion at all. This is at odds with what the liberals are supposedly known for- inclusiveness of others' ideas.

Liberals are known as being a certain way. The evidence of their behavior shows differently. Why are people not holding them accountable to what they stand for? They get away with everything they do that is opposed to what they SAY they beleive in. They are held accountable for nothing by the media.

[AceD]

"Teh way you are saying it sounds like you are saying the liberals have the right position on this and the conservatives are so obviously wrong on these issues. I think we are right and you are wrong. Well the way we decide between the two opinions is through poltical debate and elections."

I don't think the left has it "right." I also don't think gay marriage is in the same class as abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia, because there aren't lives at stake in gay marriage. I'm saying that if it's just a moral issue and not one that has anything to do with anyone's life, where does that stop? A lot of conservatives think it's morally wrong for a married man to have an affair, should we make that a crime? Do you see what I'm saying? I'm just saying again, that if you have no moral objection to homosexuality, don't you see how being opposed to it seems kinda hateful (and I stress SEEMS?

"I have not heard any serious conservative politicians speak against gay marriage cause they think it is gross. I agree that would be a dumb argument. The argument is usually expressed that be redefining marriage, it opens the door to all kinds of relationships and thus chips away at the institution altogether."

Of course politicians would never say they think it's gross. I wasn't clear, what I meant was people in general. Maybe it's just where I'm living now, but a lot of people around me claim to have a moral objection to "those people," but their actions tell me they just don't LIKE it because it doesn't make sense to them, not that they honestly think it's morally wrong.

"The evidence of their behavior shows differently. Why are people not holding them accountable to what they stand for? They get away with everything they do that is opposed to what they SAY they beleive in. They are held accountable for nothing by the media."

I'll give you that. The mass media is a joke. Although Fox does pull and play EVERYTHING that they think liberals do wrong.

[Lynn7]

When you say Fox, which shows are you referring to cause they are all different. I will say that Fox and Friends (the am show) is definietly a conservative show and Hannity is conservative and Bill O'Reilly can also lean that way at times. On the other hand Geraldo is liberal, Shep Smith I'm almost certain is liberal and Greta Van Sustern is very liberal too. Chris Wallace tries to be fair and balanced but you can tell he leans left too. So, Fox News is not totally conservative but I will say they do go out of their way to give the conservative side of issues just like CNN goes out of their way to present the liberal side. I am OK with CNN being liberal because there is Fox News to counter. Before that, I was not OK with CNN being liberal cause they were the only cable news show at first.

I have had the gay debate many times here but you are new on this board so just FYI, i have said that apart from religion I don't see how the law can restrict gay marriage, so from a legal perspective I think gay marriage will be legalized.

I do see the logic of fearing the slippery slope though cause it will start with gay marriage and then it will extend to threesomes and relatives marrying. Free choice is free choice. How can you say two gay people have the right to marry when three people living together would like to also marry? And what about a brother and sister who are elderly and would like to marry to share benefits? Who are we to say no to them?

Once you tamper with marriage you change the entire institution. Maybe marriage should just be resticted to church and for legal reasons everyone can draw up documents about who has what rights etc. It seems like most people don't take marriage all that seriously anymore anyway and they change spouses every few years, regardless of how it affects their kids.

So getting back to the Duke kids, they were just doing what is accepted for college kids but have been condemned as behaving bad and therefore kind of got what they deserved which is not right. If they are innocent then we should feel bad for what they have been through depsite the fact that ABC's Terry Moran beleives otherwise. ;)