French Elections

[Lynn7]

What do you guys make of the French Elections? I am pretty puzzled over this. I thought France was pretty liberal. Why did they go conservative?

Article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/06/france.election/index.html)

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Has nothing to do with the article, but I noticed an error.


"The president of the republic must love and respect all the French," he told cheering supporters at his campaign headquarters. "I will be the president of all the French people.

Eh? Didn't end it with a quotation mark. God I love doing that.



It seems typical that we'd think of France as uber liberal. Truth is, it would be the equivalence of a Democrat winning here. While America tilts to the right, they tilt to the left. Their Socialist party is sort of like our Republican party in that respect.

I'm kinda disappointed, that socialist chick was pretty hot (from the two pictures I saw of her on T.V., at least. Not bad for a 53-year-old).

[Jon Lyrik]

European conservatism does not = American conservatism

[RicochetShaw]

Originally posted by Jon Lyrik
European conservatism does not = American conservatism

Who said they were equal?

[Jon Lyrik]

Common misconception that should be clarified before anyone inquires.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Jon Lyrik
European conservatism does not = American conservatism

What are the differences?

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Jon Lyrik
European conservatism does not = American conservatism



As well as European liberalism does not equal American liberalism.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7
What are the differences?




"George Bush might describe himself as a conservative, but he is embarking upon a profoundly un-conservative course of action. Indeed, nothing more starkly illustrates the divergence between American and European conservatism. On this side of the Atlantic, modern conservatism is founded on a hostility to Enlightenment political projects, which commence in grandiose plans to reconstruct human nature and end up with the scaffold and the Gulag. But America itself is an Enlightenment political project, which succeeded because the abstract ideas of intellectuals from failing European states were mediated through the political instincts of Virginian squires and New England puritans.

European conservatism is cautious, sceptical and pessimistic. American conservatives, like most other decent Americans, take as their motto the unwritten first article of their Bill of Rights: "That this year shall be better than last year, and next year shall be better than this year." To a European conservative, much of human history involves finding palliatives for insoluble problems. To American conservatives, an insoluble problem is merely a moral weakling's excuse for his cowardice (Margaret Thatcher was an American conservative, not a European one)."



"They correspond to the differences in political tradition. In
general, conservatism in America has a much stronger
capitalist/libertarian and populist streak than in other countries.
European conservatism once emphasized support for throne, altar and
sword as hierarchical bearers of authoritative traditions. When those
things collapsed European conservatism mostly disappeared, while in
America those hierarchies never existed so their collapse had less
effect. The national differences seem to be declining as other
countries become more like America and many American conservatives
become more alienated from their country's actual way of life and
system of government. Especially in recent years conservatism on both
sides of the Atlantic has emphasized opposition to new
antitraditional hierarchies of formal expertise and bureaucratic
position. However, American conservatism continues to have a stronger
religious streak than present-day European conservatism and also has
much broader and deeper support"

Here's a link to an article discussing this:

http://www.worldandi.com/public/1986/october/mt10.cfm

[Vong]

France can still be considered a liberal country as the political spectrum and its parties have remained steadily centrist since the 1980s, and both the Conservative and the Socialist parties in France are centrist. In no way can that be compared to the American political spectrum.

There are 2 main factors to the Conservative party winning over the Socialist party. The first is France's issue on immigration. Sarkozy has said in the past year that he wants to reform immigration laws, essentially making it harder for immigrants to come to France. This is, of course, not new to French politics. However, it has become much more heated after the past few years and the riots that have engulfed city streets. Riots even occurred today in response to the Conservative victory.

The second factor is the Socialist party itself. France has had a long history of socialism and is one of the few countries in Europe that has had successful communist parties (the others being Italy and Finland). But ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the nasty association with Soviet communism has dramatically affected the strength socialist parties once had in France and the rest of Europe. The French socialist parties have also been seen as "gaullist", or advocating French independence from foreign powers, something not many French voters support.

The next few months for Sarkozy will be critical. He must reach out to the millions of people who voted against him (such as the French youth and unions) and mend fences with the opposition.

[Lynn7]

When he speaks of immigration he is speaking of immigrants who are Muslim?Hasn't that been a debate in recent years? Haven't they had some problems with the Muslim communtities? Could it be that some people are afraid of confronting that issue?

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7
When he speaks of immigration he is speaking of immigrants who are Muslim?Hasn't that been a debate in recent years? Haven't they had some problems with the Muslim communtities? Could it be that some people are afraid of confronting that issue?


More or less he is, but France has a shitty attitude towards foreigners to begin with, especially the darker kind. France gets a lot of immigrants from Africa and a significant portion of Africans are Muslim, but from what I've heard from my European friends is that the French have had a nasty relationship with Africans for quite sometime and not because of the possibility of them being Muslim. The French charge them for trafficking drugs. But France also receives immigrants from Turkey who are Muslim.

But that's casting a broad net against two different types of people because of the actions of the few, or what religion they are. The French have had problems with Muslim or immigrant communities because they've been disproportionately unfair and brutal to them. Remember that story a while back that sparked the riots? Where two unarmed boys were shot in the back and killed by police? That riot was Frances own version of the LA riots.

I hope you're not suggesting that France should be allowed to keep immigrants out solely because their Muslim? Yes, there are terrorists out there, but what about the people who are trying to flee repressive countries, like Iran, or fleeing the sectarian violence in Iraq, or other countries? Its not just France that is adopting this anti-immigration attitude, its a sentiment that is sweeping across Europe.

[Vong]

Originally posted by Lynn7
When he speaks of immigration he is speaking of immigrants who are Muslim?Hasn't that been a debate in recent years? Haven't they had some problems with the Muslim communtities? Could it be that some people are afraid of confronting that issue?

Sarkozy initially said "illegal immigrants". However I wouldn't doubt that he is referring in some way to the growing Muslim population in France. The country carries the largest Muslim population in Europe, many of whom are immigrants (many of whom are illegal).

France has a strong nationalist pride when it comes to their language and culture. Muslim immigrants have conflicted with this by bringing their own culture within France's borders. An example of this is the issue of Muslim women wearing the hijab. They were subsequently banned from state schools, courts and legal institutions since France emphasizes a secular state.

There are also issues of racial profiling among their police officials as well, which culminated to numerous riots in France over the past few years.

Like any issue regarding Muslims, it remains extremely delicate. Which is why Sarkozy will have a hard time in the next few months trying to win favor of the Muslim population if he truly wants to represent "all the French people".

[Beenthere]

"Sarkozy win comes from unlikely corners"

PARIS - Nicolas Sarkozy won the women's vote and fared well among blue-collar workers, even though his rival for the French presidency was a woman and a Socialist.

It was one of the surprising subplots in Sarkozy's resounding election victory over Segolene Royal — and shows his vision of pro-market reforms and scaling back immigration appeals to a wide audience.

Sarkozy's ability to attract votes from a broad spectrum of the public is an early indication he may be able to overcome his image as a polarizing force and achieve crucial popular support for pushing through his ambitious program of overhauling France's welfare system.

Official figures showed Sarkozy won France's one-time industrial heartland in the north, which French media said had not voted for a rightist presidential candidate since Charles de Gaulle in 1965.

Sarkozy even tallied nearly 44 percent of the vote in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north of Paris, where a wave of rioting erupted in late 2005 while he was interior minister and infuriated many there by calling troublemakers "scum."

Right after his victory, angry youths burned cars and clashed with police in several cities. Police reported Monday that 730 cars were burned and at least 592 people detained overnight across the country, while some 78 officers were injured.

On Monday night, several hundred people massed for a second night at the Place de la Bastille in Paris, breaking windows in shops and starting street fires. Riot police dispersed them.

Experts said Sarkozy was able to steal working-class votes from the left by playing up his tough cop image and by pounding away at the theme that he believes in rewarding hard work.

"The main attraction among workers were the security-immigration duo, which works, and the values of hard work: He put the emphasis on increasing purchasing power," said Frederic Dabi, a pollster with Ifop.

Perhaps most striking was the 52 percent of the women's vote he captured against 48 percent for Royal, which indicated the campaign transcended gender issues and became truly a choice between ideas — the tough-love message of Sarkozy against Royal's more nurturing vision.

"Royal didn't gain any advantage with her argument that she was a mother of four. It had no effect," said Pierre Giacometti, director of the Ipsos agency. "Neither feminism nor machismo had its place."

In the campaign, Sarkozy dared to attack the status quo with calls to do away with inheritance tax on small and medium estates and cut the number of public sector workers. He also evoked issues of national identity and immigration that were once the stomping ground of extreme-right nationalist Jean-Marie Le Pen.

While Sarkozy found a formula to win an election, he faces a much steeper challenge implementing his vision of tax cuts and freer markets that promise to cut into the social protections many French hold so dear.

He is certain to face resistance from unions to his plans to make the French work more and make it easier for companies to hire and fire.

The election left little time for celebrating: Legislative elections are slated for June 10 and 17, and Sarkozy's conservative UMP party needs a majority to keep his mandate for reforms. A win by the left would bring "cohabitation" — an awkward power-sharing with a leftist prime minister — which would put a stop to his plans.

Sarkozy has drawn up a whirlwind agenda for his first 100 days in office and plans to put big reforms before parliament in July. One would make overtime pay tax-free to encourage people to work more. Another would put in place tougher sentencing for repeat offenders, and a third would toughen the criteria for immigrants trying to bring their families to France.

Congratulations poured in from around the world Monday, with British Prime Minister Tony Blair sending one — in French — via YouTube. The president-elect, meanwhile, left a Paris hotel wearing jeans Monday and headed off to reflect on his new job on a yacht off the coast of Malta, a Mediterranean archipelago.

President Bush also welcomed Sarkozy's victory, and there was much talk in Washington about the likelihood for better relations with a France led by the U.S.-friendly conservative.

"We certainly look forward to cooperation with the French," White House press secretary Tony Snow said. "We know that there are going to be areas of disagreement. But on the other hand, there are certainly real opportunities to work together on a broad range of issues."

Sarkozy is as critical of Iran's nuclear program as is the U.S., and he has chided the French press for its anti-American tone. But he will not be in lockstep with Washington: He has called the Iraq invasion a mistake and says the Bush administration should do more on global warming

According to the Ipsos poll, Sarkozy cruised in his traditional electoral base: 82 percent of small business owners, and 67 percent of farmers voted for him. Befitting a conservative, he won 61 percent of votes by those over age 61, and 68 percent among voters 70 or older.

Royal's best showing was among 18- to 24-year-olds, but Sarkozy tallied 57 percent among the 25- to 34-year-old tranche.

The Ipsos poll of 3,609 adults was conducted by telephone Sunday. The agency did not provide a margin of error, but it would be about plus or minus 1.6 percentage point for a survey of that size.


I will argue with my liberal friends on France and French Communist Party later. Allergies are winning now...

Thank you.

[Thrizzle]

Just to clear something up: French people are not anti-american. They are anti-Bush.

And so are most Americans. ;)

[Beenthere]

Originally posted by Thrizzle
Just to clear something up: French people are not anti-american. They are anti-Bush.

And so are most Americans. ;)

Let's forget about Americans for a moment. But what you wrote about French is far away from the truth. Anti-Americanism has irrational roots in the French history and many of them do dislike USA. They have sometimes a difficult time to answer why they do it but they do. But not ALL of them do. That the truth uber-liberal pro-socialist French press try to cover. Not all French are anti-American, anti-Semitic and cowardly. Good for them.

Let's not make all conversations about Bush. ;)

[Thrizzle]

I've been to France twice and it was amazing both times. From my experiences they expressed tremenous love for Americans and honestly could not have been nicer. I simply can't stress that enough.

I cant help but assume the average right wingers who say the French hate America have never been to France.

[Beenthere]

Originally posted by Thrizzle
I've been to France twice and it was amazing both times. From my experiences they expressed tremenous love for Americans and honestly could not have been nicer. I simply can't stress that enough.

I cant help but assume the average right wingers who say the French hate America have never been to France.

I really have to relay on your opinion when you divide everything on left and right? It's not funny, my friend, to look at the whole world exclusively through the American division.

P.S. Relatives and friends living and working over there: can I count their opinions or not? Wait a minute, most of them came there from the former socialist countries, so can I?

P.P.S. Did you read "not ALL of them dislike America" part or not? If yes, why what I wrote contradict what you said? :confused:

[Thrizzle]

Originally posted by Beenthere
I really have to relay on your opinion when you divide everything on left and right? It's not funny, my friend, to look at the whole world exclusively through the American division.

P.S. Relatives and friends living and working over there: can I count their opinions or not? Wait a minute, most of them came there from the former socialist countries, so can I?


I was just offering my first hand information. It was so one sided, and they were so nice and welcoming that i feel ocnfident in what i said originially. If people you know in France tell you that a lot of French people dislike Americans than im truely at a loss. But that's an IF.


P.P.S. Did you read "not ALL of them dislike America" part or not? If yes, why what I wrote contradict what you said? :confused:

Originally posted by Beenthere
Let's forget about Americans for a moment. But what you wrote about French is far away from the truth.

I think we're all confused now :p . To summarize what i said before: Majority of French like Americans. Majority of French dislike Bush.

[Vong]

Originally posted by Thrizzle
I've been to France twice and it was amazing both times. From my experiences they expressed tremenous love for Americans and honestly could not have been nicer. I simply can't stress that enough.

I cant help but assume the average right wingers who say the French hate America have never been to France.

Technically France has had a subtle anti-American sentiment that can be rooted to the American civil war. In the 1950s, with the Marhsall Plan, the subsequent "Americanization" and consumer culture, many people in France grew unhappy with the US's influence over their nation. They were worried that their "High Society" would become tainted by the American's "mass culture", and that their intellectuals would become dull to this new culture. Tony Judt and T.S. Elliot argued this point. Fast-forward to present day...the feeling of anti-Americanism may have dulled down (probably due to the effects of mass culture), but it is still there in France and the rest of Europe.

They don't hate Americans per-se....just your materialistic, capitalist culture :rolleyes:

[Thrizzle]

And this is the impression you received when you went to France and conversed with the people?

[Vong]

Originally posted by Thrizzle
And this is the impression you received when you went to France and conversed with the people?

I said they were/are against American culture, not Americans themselves...

[Thrizzle]

It's news to me but ill accept it.

[Scorpio24]

I think Sarkozy getting elected is a great thing for France. It's exactly what the country needed. Although I don't agree with all of his veiw points it's certainly going to shake the country up a bit.

I'm not sure who said above that he's going o have to reach out to the unions. That's NOT going to happen 100%. He's going to take on the unions. It's their power that he wants to samash. He wants The french people to work harder and work more hours if they choose. Instead of having a maximum 35hr week he wants a minimum 35hr week. The unions are going to strike often over the next 6 months but I think he's got it in him to beat them. He wants to cut through all the red tape that strangles their buinesses.

He's been likend to a French Magret Thatcher. I think it's good likeness and like Mrs Thatcher I believe he will defeat the Unionuists.

An exciting time for France right now I believe.

I also found the lady that stood against him hot. Thankfully people don't get elected by being good looking or charming anymore right? RIght?

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Vong
Technically France has had a subtle anti-American sentiment that can be rooted to the American civil war. In the 1950s, with the Marhsall Plan, the subsequent "Americanization" and consumer culture, many people in France grew unhappy with the US's influence over their nation. They were worried that their "High Society" would become tainted by the American's "mass culture", and that their intellectuals would become dull to this new culture. Tony Judt and T.S. Elliot argued this point. Fast-forward to present day...the feeling of anti-Americanism may have dulled down (probably due to the effects of mass culture), but it is still there in France and the rest of Europe.

They don't hate Americans per-se....just your materialistic, capitalist culture :rolleyes:

This is true, but it should be mentioned that the bias concerns only the cultural "elite" in Europe, which consists of a very few segment of population in any European country - Just a couple of percent. Of course this elite has pull in media, and therefore it's presence is very visible. European journalists in particular tend to carry anti-american cultural bias.

This particular anti-american hate is more concerned about Coca-Cola, Britney Spears and Hollywood movies. USA is seen as materialistic, anti-intellectual, and dumbed-down. It's more of an high-brow Vs. low-brow culture debate.

Like said, if an american person comes to Europe, europeans tend to receive him very well, because Europeans tend to like American people, even if they tend to dislike the current USA administration. Even americans themselves dislike the current administration.