"Don't blame hip-hop for society's sexism."

[The Postmaster General]

By Jeff Johnson, aka "Cousin Jeff"

(CNN) -- Hip-hop's alleged vulgarity, sexism and misogyny have been formally and informally challenged from the halls of Capitol Hill to the streets of Sugar Hill. Those outside the black and Latino communities, as well as those inside the hip-hop family have challenged it. Despite over a decade of engagement, many would argue that the images of women in hip-hop have become progressively and destructively more negative than at any other time in history.

Lyrics that were at one time provocative and merely suggestive are now blatant and overtly obscene. Music videos have become machismo fairy tales that have more "ogre and ass" scenes than the Shrek trilogy. These images attempt to pass off the objectification of black women specifically as "true beauty" in the name of entertainment. These images and lyrics, while acceptable for adults, are targeted to a demographic made up of young people ages 12 to 16. Studies have shown that these images, and more importantly these lyrics, play a role in how young people view themselves and process sex and relationships.

During the production of a documentary for BET, which focused on sex and hip-hop, I interviewed a panel of high school students. One of those students, a 15-year-old girl, stated that she was not satisfied with how she looked because she wanted to be like the girls in the videos. After all, the boys want to be with girls in the videos. One of the young men followed up by saying that the girls in the videos were cool to sleep with, but not to take home. In that very brief snippet of conversation, we get a sense of the negative impact that these sexist and misogynistic images have on hip-hop's biggest fans. Even with all this evidence, can we place the blame entirely on hip-hop? I say unequivocally, "No."

Hip-hop must accept a level of responsibility for the destructive reality played out in the lives of many young people as a result of the music. Hip-hop is one of the most vocal and visible delivery mechanisms for the language and imagery of sexism and misogyny. However, many politicians, pundits and haters demonize the art form, and more importantly, the young people that are a part of it, without putting the issue in its proper context.

The art form, culture, music or however you may describe hip-hop is a product of the black and Latino community. With that, it has inherited many of the cultural issues passed down from previous generations. Within the African-American community, there has been a pervasive sexism that has existed even within the upper echelons of leadership for generations. The black church barred women from the pulpit, but not from ensuring that many congregations remained served by the multitude of sister servants.

The civil rights movement, which has been justifiably praised for its ability to change the social and political fabric of America for the better, was overwhelmingly sexist. There were more women than men who did the day-to-day work of the movement, yet only men served as spokespersons. Sectors of the black power movement were marred by a misogynistic culture that led to the torture of several sisters who were as willing to give their lives to the movement as their male counterparts.

The young men and women who have embraced hip-hop have inherited a culture of sexism and misogyny that has never been effectively admitted to or addressed by the previous generation, leaving young people to bear the brunt of the blame. But to hold accountable the black community without indicting a broader western culture that is sexist would be irresponsible. The soft porn we see on many cable networks, the access to all forms of porn via the Internet, and Madison Avenue's continued recognition that sex sells have desensitized an entire generation to the objectification of women.

If we are to honestly deal with the real issues of sexism and misogyny in hip-hop, we cannot start and stop with hip-hop. Let's challenge the industry to be responsible for the images it produces and distributes, but simultaneously deal with the far-reaching and pervasive social and cultural deficiencies America has related to the protection of women.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/07/commentary.johnson/index.html




Only if he mentioned that I was a nice guy could I agree more.

[Damone]

I agree that hip-hop is not entirely to blame for society's sexism but as he seems to point out...

Hip-hop must accept a level of responsibility for the destructive reality played out in the lives of many young people as a result of the music. Hip-hop is one of the most vocal and visible delivery mechanisms for the language and imagery of sexism and misogyny.

and

These images and lyrics, while acceptable for adults, are targeted to a demographic made up of young people ages 12 to 16. Studies have shown that these images, and more importantly these lyrics, play a role in how young people view themselves and process sex and relationships.

...hip-hop is a big contributor to the problem. So if you can at least recognize your part in any negative situation then you need to do your part in cleaning up what you can instead of passing the buck, like he appears to do.

[Thrizzle]

I would add that the lack of strong male role models contributes to the problem. The numbers of out of wedlock births in black communities is staggering.

[notchreturns]

There's a lot of blame to go around. The media and the heads of the record companies for one. They know sex sells. As well as the thug persona and songs about drugs, a dangerous life, fast cars, etc.

And it's something that's been around forever, sexism. It's just more in the public eye right now. You can't really stop the human condition or thought, unless you want the US turning into Brave New World or 1984.

[shoe1985]

You have to blame society as a whole. Pointing a finger at one person or genre is wrong. It takes many people to be wrong with this type of topic. Movies also don't help. Sex sells and every commercial it seems has some type of sex in it. Look at Woodstock, it was mainly about sex.

Parents should spend more time educating their children and not just teachers, friends, or anyone else. It seems we are to preoccupied with our own lives, we forget about the little ones who are looking for direction in life.

[Damone]

For me, the issue is not about sex. Ogling models is something that's been around for a long time. Rock has always been very sexual, but it's how it's handled that I think is the difference.

To go further with shoe's example of Woodstock and sex...

The sex there involved two people, whether they knew each other or not, who enjoyed each other and had a great time. It wasn't about a man acting dominant, calling the woman a slut, whore, ho, or just generally behaving like the only purpose she serves is to make him nut.

That's what bugs me.

[The Postmaster General]

Yeah, but "She's my cherry pie." - I mean, they aren't exactly singing about marrying a professional woman there. To me, there's no difference except the euphemism. Referring to a woman as a pastry dish is pretty damn degrading.

Something about it, that was touched in the article, is that African and Latino music is very sexual, from the dances to the intent. However, it is the same in America. Single people don't like dancing as much as they like hooking up, but they know dancing can help them hook up.

I think somewhere, the influences were distorted when adopted in America. It's because we are about bigger and better, so whereas tribal dances may imply the woman is presenting herself as a suitable mate, in America, we are like, "Yo, look at the ho getting all up against my jock."

America just tends to take everything to the limits and beyond.

[Damone]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Yeah, but "She's my cherry pie." - I mean, they aren't exactly singing about marrying a professional woman there. To me, there's no difference except the euphemism. Referring to a woman as a pastry dish is pretty damn degrading.


And like I mentioned in the "Stop Snitchin'" thread (I believe that was the one), It all falls into the category of "It's not WHAT you say but HOW you say it."

So then you believe the term "Cherry Pie" to be as equally bad as "Slut", "Whore" or, (here's one I've heard said on this board awhile back) "Fuck and Chuck"?

I guess to me, I find something like "Cherry Pie" to be in the same vein as when a guy might get referred to as "Beefcake". Yes, they are sexual descriptions of a person but they don't emit the, what I perceive to be, hatred or meanness of those other terms.

Another thing that just came to mind...
I think some of it does have to do with hip-hop making sexism worse (pouring gas on the fire, so to speak). What I mean by that is, in the last 17 years to when Cherry Pie came out, how often did you here of women being routinely referred to as a pastry dish? Now...in the last 17 years, how often have you heard women being routinely referred to as ho's?

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
America just tends to take everything to the limits and beyond.

No arguments there.

[The Postmaster General]

Well, we are pretty much saying the same thing. It's the same as before, except now it is more extreme. Degradation and even misogyny has been rampant in music for a long time. Hell, there's a whole subgenre of it called Cock Rock.

In some ways, I could say that these more extreme versions we see in hip-hop: They could potentially help alleve the problem by bringing it to our eyes quicker. Wasn't that the original allure of NWA and those guys from that era - They were throwing things in our face that we really weren't aware of? You could say that alot of America wasn't aware or wasn't admitting that chauvinism is a rampant bug in the system.

We say music is reflective of society, but I will feel safe to saying that while Early-Beatles tunes were looking into a tiny compact mirror, much modern stuff is more like a wall-sized convex mirror.

[Damone]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Well, we are pretty much saying the same thing. It's the same as before, except now it is more extreme. Degradation and even misogyny has been rampant in music for a long time. Hell, there's a whole subgenre of it called Cock Rock.

I had to do a look up of cock rock because that was the first time I'd heard that phrase before. I didn't realize that that was basically 80's metal.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
In some ways, I could say that these more extreme versions we see in hip-hop: They could potentially help alleve the problem by bringing it to our eyes quicker. Wasn't that the original allure of NWA and those guys from that era - They were throwing things in our face that we really weren't aware of? You could say that alot of America wasn't aware or wasn't admitting that chauvinism is a rampant bug in the system.

I agree.

I remember somewhere around '88 when I was a junior or senior in high school, a buddy had this badly dubbed taped of 2 Live Crew's "Move Somethin'" album. At the time, we'd never heard anything like that. Sure every now and then a metal band would drop an F bomb in a song and there was always the innuendo of sex in the lyrics but this was the first time it was so blunt and in your face. It was so shocking that naturally we had to drive around with it cranked up just so we could share the shock with everybody else, and have a good laugh at the same time.

But we never thought that 20 years later, what seemed like a novelty, would be as influential as it has.

I don't think we'll ever get rid of sexism, chauvinism, or misogyny.
It's always been there and will always be there. But I do think it's possible to take it down a notch and not be so "extreme" about it.

Kinda like herpes...it can't be cured but you can at least control it.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
We say music is reflective of society, but I will feel safe to saying that while Early-Beatles tunes were looking into a tiny compact mirror, much modern stuff is more like a wall-sized convex mirror.

That's so true.

[The Postmaster General]

"My Michelle" by G N' R - I listen to this today and look at it totally different than when I was a teen. I'm actually shocking myself thinking about it. This is my favorite line (for the sake of this discussion):

But school starts much too early
And this hotel wasn't free



I'm not using this as an example to contrast with modern um.... Booty Music or whatever genre, but just as an example of how we look at things differently when we get older.

I'd like to think a lot of today's generation will show us that they are smart. Otherwise.... Jeesh!

[Damone]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
"My Michelle" by G N' R - I listen to this today and look at it totally different than when I was a teen. I'm actually shocking myself thinking about it. This is my favorite line (for the sake of this discussion):

But school starts much too early
And this hotel wasn't free



I'm not using this as an example to contrast with modern um.... Booty Music or whatever genre, but just as an example of how we look at things differently when we get older.

I'd like to think a lot of today's generation will show us that they are smart. Otherwise.... Jeesh!

Along those lines, don't forget about "Christine Sixteen" by KISS..1977. I'm trying to think of even older jailbait songs but I'm drawing a blank now.

I find my self saying things now that if I heard someone say 15-20 years ago I would have thought they were crazy. I'd been told many times, "You'll change when you get older." I see now how right they were! :)

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Damone
Along those lines, don't forget about "Christine Sixteen" by KISS..1977. I'm trying to think of even older jailbait songs but I'm drawing a blank now.[quote]



What about "I Saw Here Standing There" by The Beatles? Well, she was just seventeen...


[quote]I find my self saying things now that if I heard someone say 15-20 years ago I would have thought they were crazy. I'd been told many times, "You'll change when you get older." I see now how right they were! :)


I've added this phrase to my cache: "You know, the me from 15 years ago would want to kick my ass for what I'm about to say, but..."

[Damone]

I forgot all about "I Saw Her Standing There"!

[The Postmaster General]

And to go along with the theme here - parents absolutely hated The Beatles, those damn long-hairs! It's funny though, because when you are 15, 16, 17... I'd say even 18 & 19 - It's hard to see how something like that can be considered less-than-fine, but at some point, you may have a moment where you're like, "What? Oh, that's what they were upset about!'

I think somethign to note about todays music, is compared to The beatles, the wrong-doings are extremely blatant and in your face. It might be doing something in the way of setting a bar of normalcy. When people listened to The Beatles, the deviance wasn't as obvious. Maybe it could be said that more modern music is making things that actually very deviant - makes them expected, so to speak. I don't know - there's a thought here I can't put in words, but maybe you know what I'm getting at. Like, now we don't notice deviance that is really there, whereas before we just didnt catch it. In some ways, you could say it could make kids less street wise and less able to interpret things on their own --- I mean, what's left for them to interpret. Are they really going to have a revelation that slapping a hoe is something not particularly good? Hm...

[Damone]

I remember seeing a special on PBS a long time back about Jazz in the early 20's and how the adults back then criticized it as being "the devil's music" and how it was corrupting the youth.

I think I know what your talking about. As an example, "Calling a female a slut or whore is ok because everyone does it. So, since everyone does it, that's just how things are nowadays." It doesn't matter that it's still not right, but it gets accepted as part of every day life.

Am I close? I retyped that several times because I had trouble turning the thought into a sentence, too.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Damone
I remember seeing a special on PBS a long time back about Jazz in the early 20's and how the adults back then criticized it as being "the devil's music" and how it was corrupting the youth.

I think I know what your talking about. As an example, "Calling a female a slut or whore is ok because everyone does it. So, since everyone does it, that's just how things are nowadays." It doesn't matter that it's still not right, but it gets accepted as part of every day life.

Am I close? I retyped that several times because I had trouble turning the thought into a sentence, too.


Yeah, it's hard to explain --- I think it's an appreciation thing. Like, they appreciate it in the sense that they enjoy it, but like what facet are they going to one day discover. -- Whereas you and I listen to the stuff we used to listen too (hell, I'll admit - I still do) but now we see it through different eyes, and look at it differently. How are they going to look at today's music differently if the music today spells everything out for you? I don't believe anything stops at the surface, and am just wondering how much learning room is being left for modern listeners.

There's a sophistication thing as well - Back to "My Michelle" where that went from a song about a crazy chick to now a look into the dark side of a girl gone bad ---- One day are listeners of today's music going to be like, 'Smack That Ass UP" takes a look into the sexual prowess of a man with a strong sex drive." ---

You know, I'm an optimist....

[Vong]

When you watch a music video that shows women in dog collars wearing nothing but bikinis and drenched with milk...it's hard not to blame hip hop for the majority of societiies' objectification ofwomen.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Vong
When you watch a music video that shows women in dog collars wearing nothing but bikinis and drenched with milk...it's hard not to blame hip hop for the majority of societiies' objectification ofwomen.


You just described a Madonna video from 1990.

[Vong]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
You just described a Madonna video from 1990.

True, but in the hip hop videos of today, women are used as props rather than as singers.

[EVILxxx]

A main problem I think is that not only is hip-hop part of African American culture it is African American culture.
You want the role of the macho tough guy, or the suave ladies man in a new film? You better have gone platinum. If you want to go album to go platinum you better be obscene.

It all falls back to the parents though. Ultimately it is their responsibility and with the number of fatherless black households in America, it can be hard raising children without "the enforcer". Bill Cosby explains it nicely.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/11/cosby/index.html

[electriclite]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
A main problem I think is that not only is hip-hop part of African American culture it is African American culture.
You want the role of the macho tough guy, or the suave ladies man in a new film? You better have gone platinum. If you want to go album to go platinum you better be obscene.

It all falls back to the parents though. Ultimately it is their responsibility and with the number of fatherless black households in America, it can be hard raising children without "the enforcer". Bill Cosby explains it nicely.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/11/cosby/index.html


And Chris Rock explained it shortly:

Ain't nothing scarier than someone saying "I'm gonna tell your Daddy!"

As for the subject, I've lived in and around communities with a "ghetto attitude", and quite frankly it pisses me off that I can't walk through an area that isn't under construction, and not have some crude and young assholes, look at me like I'm on the fucking Dollar Menu, or tell me what they'd like to do to me like vulgarity and crudeness was the only language I understood. And I know for a fact a lot of this attitude is partly inspired by too many hip-hop videos and lyrics (and in some cases hispanic mashismo and chauvinism).

I recently was walking through the neighborhood park with my mom and little sister, who were in town for my graduation. Usually I don't walk through there alone because I want to avoid incidents I stated above. We passed by these two guys and caught what I thought was the end of a conversation about "putting it in her ass so quick."

A few moments later after we passed these two charming individuals, my sister asked me if I heard what they had said, and I said I said yeah. My sister informed me that they added a little extra to the statement I heard: "yeah the one one in the green shirt" (my sister was wearing a green shirt). These dirty fucks said that kind of shit with our MOTHER walking with us!

I was so pissed off. If I had actually heard that last part I would've walked over and slapped the color off the kid's face. Unless a woman comes up and outright defends herself, all women are treated like a video ho!

Which is why the women in that culture need to step up and put this behavior down the second it rears its head. Too many young girls take lewd comments, like that guy said to my sister, and think they're cute when they're not. Again, it goes back to the lack of a father figure. The girls are lacking proper attention from a proper male figure, so they'll settle for any male attention, no matter the quality.

I agree you can't get rid of this attitude, but like a communicable disease, you can do your best to keep it from spreading any further.

[DareDevil]

Wow I sure missed out on this great conversation so far. One thing I would like to add is why only blame hiphop?? Why aren't we freaking out on movies and videogames that decipher the same thing. When I think of hip-hop I don't automatically think of gangster rap. People that have nothing to do with hiphop having conversations like this is what has people in the industry saying "Hip hop is dead" but the truth is the surface is only damaged. There are still artists who understand this; Talib Kweli comes to mind, as does Rhymefest who recently wrote a GREAT blog about this exact topic. Anyone who hasn't heard Rhymefest CD 'Blue Collar' I strongly suggests you get your hands on it. Here is the article Rhymefest wrote on his myspace blog.

Dear Hip-Hop:
You know who I am; it's me... Che Smith a/k/a Rhymefest. I've been down from the beginning; the cat from the Southside of Chicago; the Grammy-award winning songwriter and recording artist currently signed to J Records (a subsidiary of Sony BMG Music Entertainment); and, more importantly, a product of the Hip-Hop community. I love Hip-Hop!
I just happened to take a break from recording my new album the past few weeks, and I've been listening to, reading about, and observing your struggles to address and confront the recent attacks and accusations levied against you from all of our major media outlets, as well as from our so-called "community parents." From what I hear, they want us to curb our language, change our lyrics, and correct our behavior in the Hip-Hop industry. Ironically, I don't believe I heard them include the motion picture industry or the video game industry in the discussion, but I'll get back to that in a minute. It seems like, once again, we had to wait for the inevitable to happen to spark some debate and concern amongst ourselves. I hate to say "I told you so," but there are a few of us that have been at the forefront with this movement and raising these concerns for years, which is why last year I chose to go to London's House of Commons and meet with the Conservative Party leader, David Cameron, after he made similar attacks against Hip-Hop. In any event, now that we have your attention, let's examine what can be done by those of us that really love Hip-Hop. I was taught, that "Love is patient, Love is kind... it is not rude, it is not self-seeking."
Mother Oprah & Daddy Cosby: We love you; nothing can be taken away from the lives that you both have touched. It seems as though your success and presence in this day and age is not only a divine blessing for Black people, but for the world. However, with that being said, it doesn't mean you are above reproach or mistakes. And for the last year, the unbalanced and unfair treatment you have doled out to Hip-Hop has pissed some of us off and has made us want to use some of those bad words towards you. Mother Oprah, I sat and watched your Town Hall meeting for 2 days last week. And, I couldn't help but think: where was the CEO of Viacom, the media company that controls MTV & BET? Where were the CEO's of Clear Channel, Infinity, and Radio One, the media companies that control most of our nation's airwaves? Where were the artists that consistently use negative lyrics and misogynistic images in videos? How can we have productive discussions without including them? Should we be airing our dirty laundry in this fashion? And was this discussion really meant to be productive? When Daddy Cosby spanked us last year, the tone and message was so unproductive. Mother Oprah & Daddy Cosby, please remember: if you are mad at your children, don't beat their ass in the middle of the classroom. All that causes is embarrassment and resentment (and ratings, if you will). And for God's sake, before and after spanking your children, explain to them from a compassionate standpoint why the spanking is necessary and please continue to work with them after the spanking to become better-behaved children. You weren't there when they were growing up, so please don't compound that by spanking them and disappearing again.
Uncle Al: Rev. Sharpton, I've recently seen you on various news programs tackling certain issues regarding your nieces and nephews in the Hip-Hop community, like language and behavior. You have not only been a vocal leader in the Black community, but in my eyes, an example of a freedom fighter for disenfranchised people across the world. Your words and actions are not going unheard. Your efforts are not in vain; however, your approach could be a little more sensitive. You and I know who the decision-makers are, and we should definitely address them. But, we also know that there are consumers that are listening to, watching and buying this music and these images; so, we've got to address them as well and the reasons why they are doing such. I also have to add that I've yet to hear anyone address the particular issue of 'selling dope on wax' and its short and long-term effects on our children and culture. I do understand how language can affect self-perception. However, I think we can take this fight a step further. More dangerous than the use of any particular negative word (i.e. nigga, bitch, ho, etc.) is the meaning behind the message. Currently, there are rappers who find it not only fashionable but profitable to glamorize drug and murder culture (and, after watching 60 minutes the other night, I'll add the "stop snitching" culture). As young people, many of us have seen our families and communities decimated by drug addiction and terrorized by its distributors. There is no reason that our annihilation should be exploited and glamorized over public airwaves. Nevertheless, there are rappers, as well as industry executives, who are trying to be progressive. My challenge to you is to cease the debate with the same old, tired excuse makers and begin a new dialogue with fresh and willing participants, who have all shown strength with numbers of units sold as well as positive messages in our music. Also, take heed to Cousin Cornel West's example, with the new album he is releasing on Hidden Beach entitled Never Forget: A Journey of Revelations. He's a part of your generation; he chooses not to alienate us but embrace and lift up those of us that are trying to do our part, so that the youth can see that there is a viable and entertaining alternative that's cool.
Hip-Hop: I write to you as a man, a father, the son a reformed drug addict, a former narcotic distributor, an artist, a fan, and a friend. Now, it goes without saying that what Don Imus said about those sisters from Rutgers [of course] was racist and deplorable, but his excuse and rationale for his comments were even worse. Is Hip-Hop to blame for everything? Is Hip-Hop responsible for the socio-economic, educational, and systematic racist hurdles that prevail in the Black community that have created a subculture that accepts and relates to these messages and images? Obviously, I would argue the answer is "No." On the other hand, honestly Hip-Hop; it really does pale in comparison to what's really being said and done in our music. But, at the end of the day, we have to recognize our power and influence and finally do something to bring about change. We've grown and evolved over the last 30 years, but this can't be what we are about now. So, really, what am I saying to you Hip-Hop? Yes, we have to take responsibility for the role that we've played, musically as well as culturally. No, we are not the only cause of the problems in our community, but it doesn't matter if we are not going to become a part of the solution! We cannot continue to promote, support, condone or ignore the glorification of drug distribution, Black-on-Black violence and the domestic & emotional abuse of our women. You have become popular culture, so now it's time to protect and build our community; not destroy it. We do not want to censor you, but we have to incorporate new messages and address the real issues: education, racism and economic discrimination.
Sincerely,
EL CHE a/k/a Rhymefest


Rhymefest's MySpace (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=48635297)

[The Postmaster General]

That's a good find, DareDevil - I like his attitude about it. Almost like a "maybe we should" approach. He's right on about how the elite treat their community though - it's more about righteousness and snubbing than about actual integration or problem solving.

Originally posted by Vong
True, but in the hip hop videos of today, women are used as props rather than as singers.

Yeah, it's almost like they are go-go dancers from the 60s!

For your enjoyment, I present Whitesnake's 1987 video for "Here I go Again" (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xq456OvtBTA)

I also highly recommend "The Decline of the Western Civilization: The Metal Years"




electriclite:

As for the subject, I've lived in and around communities with a "ghetto attitude", and quite frankly it pisses me off that I can't walk through an area that isn't under construction, and not have some crude and young assholes, look at me like I'm on the fucking Dollar Menu, or tell me what they'd like to do to me like vulgarity and crudeness was the only language I understood. And I know for a fact a lot of this attitude is partly inspired by too many hip-hop videos and lyrics (and in some cases hispanic mashismo and chauvinism).


You're not really blaming hip-hop for construction workers making cat calls at passing women are you? :confused: