Military draft questions

[Scarface98.9]

Lately I've been involved with a presentation for my ethics class about the moral justification for military drafts. I have a few questions that I haven't been able to get a clear answer on and what better forum than here?

1) Has the Supreme Court ever declared that military drafts are constitutional? I've heard implications that they've never said it was constitutional, and if they haven't, does the constitution ever say that Congress has the right to institute one?

2) What religions are generally opposed to them? Or for them? I know that to be a contentscious objector, Jehovas Witnesses are generally ruled out but are there any other religions that forbid mandatory military service?

3) Do you think that America will ever institute another draft, despite the Vietnam debacle?

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by Scarface98.9
Lately I've been involved with a presentation for my ethics class about the moral justification for military drafts. I have a few questions that I haven't been able to get a clear answer on and what better forum than here?

1) Has the Supreme Court ever declared that military drafts are constitutional? I've heard implications that they've never said it was constitutional, and if they haven't, does the constitution ever say that Congress has the right to institute one?

2) What religions are generally opposed to them? Or for them? I know that to be a contentscious objector, Jehovas Witnesses are generally ruled out but are there any other religions that forbid mandatory military service?

3) Do you think that America will ever institute another draft, despite the Vietnam debacle?

I will answer number 3. I believe one day we will have one. Too many people are for this war, and we don't have enough people to fight it. The only thing left to do is have a draft.

[Beenthere]

I am pro professional armies in the stable world.

However, I think short term non-combatant draft would be useful. To experience real discipline in life and become a grownup at the age of 20 not 55.



:D

[Criminal Rock]

what

[Vong]

Under the natural US sense of nationalism and patriotism, and with reaffirming acts that enforce this (ie. Pledge of Allegiance), it could be considered an act of duty as an American to defend one's country when called for by your government.

As for it being constitutional, it seems to go against the rights of the citizen's life and security.

[Cyclonus]

1) Yes, it has. I've done a quick search and came up with this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#Legality

2) Offhand, I'd guess the Amish.

3) Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if this did happen. Who knows what will happen with Iran in the near future? I do think that if it happens, it will cause a great deal of political and social unrest.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Scarface98.9
Lately I've been involved with a presentation for my ethics class about the moral justification for military drafts. I have a few questions that I haven't been able to get a clear answer on and what better forum than here?

1) Has the Supreme Court ever declared that military drafts are constitutional? I've heard implications that they've never said it was constitutional, and if they haven't, does the constitution ever say that Congress has the right to institute one?

2) What religions are generally opposed to them? Or for them? I know that to be a contentscious objector, Jehovas Witnesses are generally ruled out but are there any other religions that forbid mandatory military service?

3) Do you think that America will ever institute another draft, despite the Vietnam debacle?

I can't help you on the first one either.

The religious question seems like it might be fightable if someone can prove that they really would not kill for personal beleifs. I would think that would be a liability on the battle field to have someone who refuses to handle a gun. And if someone is that against killing they would rather sit in the can anyway for their beleifs wouldn't they?

I think if the Dems get back in power there could be a draft cause they seem to beleive in equal responsibility for the soldiers so no one financial group is overrepresented.

Other than that, I think if we are in the fight for our lives (an attack/invasion etc) there would be a draft. It's always a possibilty anyway.

[Vong]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think if the Dems get back in power there could be a draft cause they seem to beleive in equal responsibility for the soldiers so no one financial group is overrepresented.

Right, and the Democrats will also bring about the coming of Satan and the rapture...

[Cyclonus]

Okay, you've probably all heard of how the United States and Canada signed a treaty a while back. It stipulates that if they bring back the draft, you can't hide up north like they did last time. Is Mexico still an option? How many other countries have signed similar agreements with the US?

[Vong]

Originally posted by Cyclonus
Okay, you've probably all heard of how the United States and Canada signed a treaty a while back. It stipulates that if they bring back the draft, you can't hide up north like they did last time. Is Mexico still an option? How many other countries have signed similar agreements with the US?

I'm not famiiliar with this treaty.
Canada received draft dodgers in recent years in regards to the Iraq war.

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think if the Dems get back in power there could be a draft cause they seem to beleive in equal responsibility for the soldiers so no one financial group is overrepresented.

What is wrong with this? I don't get you on this subject. If I am asked to serve my country through a draft I am there. I live here too and will fight for my rights. What is so bad about this? It makes things fair. Not one group gets the benefit to stay out of danger, we all have freedoms, and if you are not willing to defend them, get the hell out of this country.

[Cyclonus]

Originally posted by Vong
I'm not famiiliar with this treaty.
Canada received draft dodgers in recent years in regards to the Iraq war.

Unfortunately, I don't know the specifics myself. This is just what I've heard on occassion. Am I off base, anyone?

[Scarface98.9]

Thanks for the help, I did the presentation last night and it went over pretty well. My stance was anti-draft

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by shoe1985
What is wrong with this? I don't get you on this subject. If I am asked to serve my country through a draft I am there. I live here too and will fight for my rights. What is so bad about this? It makes things fair.

What isn't fair about voluntary service? Some people have this vision that the majority of the military is made up of people who signed up as a last resort. This is categorically false. It is made up of all kinds of individuals, and I haven't met one(Even though I know there are) who signed on because it was their only hope.
You don't want to fight in war don't sign up for the military. If you sign up don't bitch that you are being made to fight.
In the Marines U.S.M.C. stands for two things:
1) United States Marine Corps
&
2) U Signed A Motherfucking Contract

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
What isn't fair about voluntary service? Some people have this vision that the majority of the military is made up of people who signed up as a last resort. This is categorically false. It is made up of all kinds of individuals, and I haven't met one(Even though I know there are) who signed on because it was their only hope.
You don't want to fight in war don't sign up for the military. If you sign up don't bitch that you are being made to fight.
In the Marines U.S.M.C. stands for two things:
1) United States Marine Corps
&
2) U Signed A Motherfucking Contract

I know of a few people who had to sign up or go homeless. People can't find jobs and do what they can, in the end they find themselves fighting for a country that doesn't care about them.

Also, it does help people get into college to better themselves. We like to believe anyone can go to college, but that isn't true. Many people have things come up that stop this.

If there was a draft there would probably be less war. Do you honestly believe most rich people would be so for war if they knew their kids would be sent over to fight?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by shoe1985
I know of a few people who had to sign up or go homeless. People can't find jobs and do what they can, in the end they find themselves fighting for a country that doesn't care about them.

Also, it does help people get into college to better themselves. We like to believe anyone can go to college, but that isn't true. Many people have things come up that stop this.

If there was a draft there would probably be less war. Do you honestly believe most rich people would be so for war if they knew their kids would be sent over to fight?

I don't understand why someone would have to join the military or go homeless. We live in the United States- land of opportunity. Why can immigrants come here penniless from Mexico and make it here and yet our own youth can't figure it out.

Student loans are great and have seen many people through college. Some people go to college part time and work.

That last statement about draft equals less war is why some Dems are promoting the draft these days. They figure if people had to go there would be a big uproar and the war would be over. But why send people into war who don't want to fight if it isn't necessary. Seems cruel to me. and the military says that the draft would decrease the quality of the soldiers cause the ones who are in now, want to be there.

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I don't understand why someone would have to join the military or go homeless. We live in the United States- land of opportunity. Why can immigrants come here penniless from Mexico and make it here and yet our own youth can't figure it out.

Student loans are great and have seen many people through college. Some people go to college part time and work.

That last statement about draft equals less war is why some Dems are promoting the draft these days. They figure if people had to go there would be a big uproar and the war would be over. But why send people into war who don't want to fight if it isn't necessary. Seems cruel to me. and the military says that the draft would decrease the quality of the soldiers cause the ones who are in now, want to be there.

Well big business would rather hire those immigrants because they don't have to pay them minimum wage because they are not recognized as being here.

I am a part-time worker/college student. I live at home. I know many friends of mine can't go to college because they must help their family out.

Most of the soldiers don't want to be there now. I know all of my friends in the military want to come home and be with their families. Is it right for them to stay over there after serving for so long? When will people come in to take over for them? Something needs to be done, and fast.

I know the Army is trying very hard to get new recruits, but nobody wants to join. I wonder why? Today on my local news, they were interviewing a husband and wife who just came back for 2 weeks, and they said things are heating up again over there. So, what can we do to stop this?

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by shoe1985
I know of a few people who had to sign up or go homeless. People can't find jobs and do what they can, in the end they find themselves fighting for a country that doesn't care about them.


As long as you realize that the military isn't comprised of ex-dirt farmers. Also worth noting is that you do not have to join the infantry if you don't wish to see combat. There are a number of non combat positions in the military. Hell on the application they ask if you think you would be able to kill someone in combat.

Most of the soldiers don't want to be there now. I know all of my friends in the military want to come home and be with their families. Is it right for them to stay over there after serving for so long? When will people come in to take over for them? Something needs to be done, and fast.

No one desires to be in Iraq. It is a dump that smells of shit and sewage and is filled with a number of people that hate your guts.
If you know people that have been serving in the army and have gone over more than two tours that means that they reenlisted, which also means they are well aware of what they are getting themselves into.

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
As long as you realize that the military isn't comprised of ex-dirt farmers. Also worth noting is that you do not have to join the infantry if you don't wish to see combat. There are a number of non combat positions in the military. Hell on the application they ask if you think you would be able to kill someone in combat.



No one desires to be in Iraq. It is a dump that smells of shit and sewage and is filled with a number of people that hate your guts.
If you know people that have been serving in the army and have gone over more than two tours that means that they reenlisted, which also means they are well aware of what they are getting themselves into.

Actually, with recruits down at the moment they are making people serve more than one term by making them stay. I know many people who were supposed to be home in January and were told they were still needed and they are not going anywhere.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by shoe1985
Actually, with recruits down at the moment they are making people serve more than one term by making them stay. I know many people who were supposed to be home in January and were told they were still needed and they are not going anywhere.

Indeed but military life is a tough life to choose. Long deployments and separation from family is in the job description.

[shoe1985]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
Indeed but military life is a tough life to choose. Long deployments and separation from family is in the job description.

Maybe, but it is a way out too. Sometimes people want to better themselves and that scholarship really looks nice. Maybe if they were allowed to quit their jobs like you or I things would be different.

I know some people, yes I know a lot of people, that signed up because their dad or grandpa served and feel it is their duty to serve.

I think this article below gives a good neutral view on the army situation right now and how it needs many things to keep winning this war: Here is the link to it also (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070512/ap_on_go_ot/army_incentives)

WASHINGTON - The Army will offer incentives to keep midlevel officers as it faces another decade or so in combat around the world, its chief of staff said Friday.

Gen. George Casey, who took over as the Army's chief just a month ago, said the United States will "be in a period of conflict for, I believe, another five or ten years." And the Army, which has been stretched and stressed by five difficult years at war, must be organized and equipped to deal with that challenge, he said.

The general said he is not suggesting that the
Iraq or
Afghanistan wars will last five more years. But Casey, who was the top commander in Iraq until February, acknowledged that building a stable, self-governing Iraq is a "long-term proposition."

"We have been attacked and are at war with an insidious group of transnational terrorists who are attacking our way of life, and are going to continue to attack our way of life until we beat them, because I don't see them giving up," he said.

To stem a growing trend of critical future leaders leaving the service, Casey said the Army will unveil a plan next week to give some captains $20,000 to stay on. He said the Army also will increase opportunities for officers to go to various graduate schools as another incentive to stay in the military. The captains also would get a choice in duty assignments.

Casey said leadership development is one of his priorities, along with increasing the size of the Army, improving conditions for soldiers and their families and continuing to transform the service so it can better fight future battles.

According to the Army, the attrition rate for officers is higher than it has been in previous years, with graduates of West Point, the Officer Candidate School and ROTC leaving at a faster pace once they've finished their initial tour in the military.

For example, about six in 10 West Point soldiers who graduated in 1997 reenlisted after their sixth year. But just 53 percent of those who graduated in 2000 — and likely have spent much of the last six years rotating in and out of the war zones — have signed up for another tour.

Casey, who served as the Iraq commander from July 2004 until February 2007, said he doesn't know how long the Army can keep up current troop levels in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But, he said, "it's a question I have foremost in my mind." He acknowledged that soldiers' families are upset about the
Pentagon's recent decision to extend Iraq deployments to 15 months, from what had usually been 12 months.

But he said the move was the only way to avoid sending as many as five Army brigades back to Iraq after just seven or eight months at home, resting and getting the equipment and training needed to return to war. Under the new system, units are guaranteed 12 months at home.

The Pentagon released a one-page description Friday of the new deployment policy signed by Defense Secretary Robert Gates stating that units are guaranteed the one-year break. But it noted that a policy for individual soldiers has not yet been completed.

Some soldiers returning from Iraq may change to a new unit or switch jobs which could result in their being sent back to the war zone in less than 12 months. The Army is working on a policy that would address those instances as much as possible.

In other comments, Casey said he is still considering moving faster to increase the size of the Army but said he would have to shift money from future years in order to buy enough equipment for the expanded Army, as well as set up more recruiting centers.

He said he does not yet know how much money it would take.

Casey also said the Army is near a decision on how many mine-resistant armored vehicles to buy to replace the more vulnerable Humvees. The number is "somewhere between 2,500 and 17,000."

The Army wants more of the so-called MRAPs (Mine Resistant, Ambush Protected), but acknowledges there are missions for which the vehicle is not suitable or as agile as needed..

[JohnTheHenchman]

There will never be another draft.

The way we fight wars these days, it's not like vietnam or wwII where you can hand a guy a gun and tell him to shoot.