Free Speech is Dead in the USA

[JohnTheHenchman]

Ok, so a month ago Don Imus gets fired for saying a phrase in jest.

Today, NY "shock jocks" JV and Elvis were fired for REPLAYING a prank phone call made to a chinese takeout joint.

Now Opie and Anthony are in some hot water over something a homeless man said on their XM radio show. I don't think they'll lose their jobs, but Al Sharpton is deciding whether or not he's going to seek such.

Why do entertainers have to apologize when they don't want to? Why should they have to? Why should they when they lose their job anyway? Are any of these people racist bigots? NO. But god forbid one says something unpopular or politically incorrect in the name of comedy. This isn't Michael Richards on a stage shouting racial slurs. These are comedians trying to be funny.

What's the point?

[Lynn7]

I think the issue was something to do with raping Laura Bush and Condie Rice- many are looking to see if the leaders who were so upset over Imus' remarks are equally moved to yell about a Republican black woman and white woman. Interesting....

I haven't heard Laura or Condie making a big stink though. My thought is that they will just chalk it up to free (though vile) speech.

[EVILxxx]

"As for the one Mormon running for office, those who really believe in God will defeat him anyways, so don't worry about that; that's a temporary situation." -Al Sharpton

Now there is a shining example of bigotry.
The definition of free speech seems to be going under some fine-tuning as of late.

[Thrizzle]

I think this is mainly people trying to protect children from "inappropriate" material on public airwaves. Personally i believe theres no substitute for good parenting and this type of censorship is just a quick fix that doesnt do any good.

The degree of the reprimand depends on the audience. On political or late night programs you can get away with more messed up sh*t; they dont have young viewers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBca97GFs6s

And the Don Imus thing was a little more complicated than just that one nappy headed ho comment. Imus had a reputation of racism from former colleagues.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Imus has a reputation of racism?

Be that as it may, it's not illegal to be racist.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman

Why do entertainers have to apologize when they don't want to? Why should they have to? Why should they when they lose their job anyway? Are any of these people racist bigots? NO. But god forbid one says something unpopular or politically incorrect in the name of comedy. This isn't Michael Richards on a stage shouting racial slurs. These are comedians trying to be funny.

What's the point?


I never knew anything about Don Imus, what his show was about, or what he was about, except something Aaron McGruder said once at a speaking engagement. My only opinion of him was that he looked like a gargoyle.

That being said, the reason why celebrities/entertainers have to apologize for mistakes is because they work on networks that have sponsors, who have customers who start picket lines and boycotts. Sponsors don't like that, and sponsors pay the entertainers' checks, so if they want to keep getting those checks they make as many mea culpas as it takes.

Also you make the distinction that Michael Richards isn't a comedian which he is (albeit a bad one) and all these other guys as being comedians, which in Imus' case I've heard the opposite. Isn't the real distinction here is that these guys failed at making a joke funny?

I mean its like that episode of The Office, where they have that Sensitivity training seminar after Michael tried to tell that Chris Rock routine to his staff. Some people can tell those jokes and some people just CAN'T.

That being said, I don't feel people should get fired over it.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Nobody mentions how Imus also contributed to great causes, and has played an enormous role in helping out the inner city kids of Philadelphia. But no, saying something slightly sexist/racist simply overshadows all of that.

Al Sharpton is a degenerate piece of shit who doesn't deserve to be called a Reverend and especially not a voice of the black community. Hell, at least Jesse Jackson actually contributed to the Civil Rights movement and worked with King. Sharpton hasn't done shit except cause problems for people who pose no real threat to racial relations in this country.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by electriclite
I never knew anything about Don Imus, what his show was about, or what he was about, except something Aaron McGruder said once at a speaking engagement. My only opinion of him was that he looked like a gargoyle.

That being said, the reason why celebrities/entertainers have to apologize for mistakes is because they work on networks that have sponsors, who have customers who start picket lines and boycotts. Sponsors don't like that, and sponsors pay the entertainers' checks, so if they want to keep getting those checks they make as many mea culpas as it takes.

Also you make the distinction that Michael Richards isn't a comedian which he is (albeit a bad one) and all these other guys as being comedians, which in Imus' case I've heard the opposite. Isn't the real distinction here is that these guys failed at making a joke funny?

I mean its like that episode of The Office, where they have that Sensitivity training seminar after Michael tried to tell that Chris Rock routine to his staff. Some people can tell those jokes and some people just CAN'T.

That being said, I don't feel people should get fired over it.

Comedy is relative.

I thought everything I listed was funny. Using the Office example kinda proves something to me. White people can not make racial jokes. I mean they can, but not if you have a radio show.

Patrice O'Neal talking about this on Hannity a month ago was brilliant. He basically said that Don Imus should be able to make fun of black women, so that he can make fun of white women.

People take things out of contect these days. It's sickening.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Comedy is relative.

I thought everything I listed was funny. Using the Office example kinda proves something to me. White people can not make racial jokes. I mean they can, but not if you have a radio show.

Patrice O'Neal talking about this on Hannity a month ago was brilliant. He basically said that Don Imus should be able to make fun of black women, so that he can make fun of white women.

People take things out of contect these days. It's sickening.

Well I think what people REALLY took offense to with the Imus comment was that he made that comment about a group of women who aren't public figures.

I mean comedians taunt public figures because just about everyone knows them which ups the comedian's chances of people understanding the joke and getting a laugh. When they make fun of people few know, especially using a term that describes a specific group, people start to wonder what the motivation was for directing that joke toward those unknown people.

I mean if you're a cultural joke, interest or pariah like "The Runaway Bride" or Susan Smith, or Elizabeth Smart, its not hard to understand jokes coming at them. But these girls just played a sport they loved and won an important game. That happens on every sports team so its not some freak oddity to be singled out.

[JohnTheHenchman]

The Rutgers women's basketball team made it to the finals of the NCAA tournament.

I would say that makes them public figures.

I mean yeah, it's women's basketball, but still. If you can be seen on ESPN, you're open to scrutiny whether you're Roger Clemens or a member of the Rutger's women's basketball team, none of whom ever even heard of Don Imus.

[Thrizzle]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Be that as it may, it's not illegal to be racist.

But it can get you fired. I mostly agree with you, but with regard to Imus i'll give CBS the benefit of the doubt.

This is one of those issues where you look at the principle and ask where you'd draw the line. You dont want people getting fired over subjective material, but ultimately it hasnt been a problem because the market does a good job of regulating censorship. A few people lobbied to get Maher fired for his 9/11 comments but enough people wanted him back so he got his own HBO show.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Ok, so a month ago Don Imus gets fired for saying a phrase in jest.

It wasn't funny.


Today, NY "shock jocks" JV and Elvis were fired for REPLAYING a prank phone call made to a chinese takeout joint.

That wasn't funny either.


Why do entertainers have to apologize when they don't want to?

Oh, I think they want to; it's the first step in trying to keep their jobs. Whether or not they mean it, is another matter.

[Why should they have to?[/quote]

Like I said, they probably want to keep their jobs.

Why should they when they lose their job anyway? Are any of these people racist bigots? NO. But god forbid one says something unpopular or politically incorrect in the name of comedy.

You make it sound like there was nothing wrong with what they did. Calling the Rutgers women's basketball team, based on seeing them on TV playing basketball, a bunch of "nappy headed hoes" is not comedy, it's not funny. He wasn't scrutinizing them, he was insulting them, based mostly on their race.

Making fun of Asian people at a Chinese restaurant and how they talk is not funny.

And laughing about raping Condoleeza Rice and Laura Bush, again, just isn't funny. It's stupid.

This isn't Michael Richards on a stage shouting racial slurs. These are comedians trying to be funny.

When did Don Imus become a comedian? He mostly had politicians on his show; I'm not too familiar with the other DJs in trouble, but Imus is no comedian.

What I find amazing is that this type of stuff happened AFTER the Don Imus thing. These guys aren't comedians, they're morons. I find it hard that anybody would try to do a "joke" based on race after the Don Imus thing.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Imus has a reputation of racism?

Be that as it may, it's not illegal to be racist.

Yeah, these people are worried about the legality of being racist, or making racist comments.

No, it's not illegal, but it sure as hell isn't popular - in case you hadn't noticed.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by bigred760
It wasn't funny.

[b]

That wasn't funny either.

[b]

Oh, I think they want to; it's the first step in trying to keep their jobs. Whether or not they mean it, is another matter.

[b][Why should they have to?

Like I said, they probably want to keep their jobs.



You make it sound like there was nothing wrong with what they did. Calling the Rutgers women's basketball team, based on seeing them on TV playing basketball, a bunch of "nappy headed hoes" is not comedy, it's not funny. He wasn't scrutinizing them, he was insulting them, based mostly on their race.

Making fun of Asian people at a Chinese restaurant and how they talk is not funny.

And laughing about raping Condoleeza Rice and Laura Bush, again, just isn't funny. It's stupid.

[b]

When did Don Imus become a comedian? He mostly had politicians on his show; I'm not too familiar with the other DJs in trouble, but Imus is no comedian.

What I find amazing is that this type of stuff happened AFTER the Don Imus thing. These guys aren't comedians, they're morons. I find it hard that anybody would try to do a "joke" based on race after the Don Imus thing. [/QUOTE]

See but I found all of that funny. Comedy is subjective. You aren't the be all end all of whats funny and neither am I.

These guys ARE comedians. They are doing material theyve been doing for YEARS. How dare you call them morons.

And yes, comedy has been a central part of Don Imus's show for thirty years, so yeah, he's a comedian.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
These guys ARE comedians. They are doing material theyve been doing for YEARS. How dare you call them morons.

Because they did the exact same thing Don Imus did not long after he got fired for making racially insensitive comments.

That is moronic.


And yes, comedy has been a central part of Don Imus's show for thirty years, so yeah, he's a comedian.

Being funny on a radio show doesn't make him a comedian. It makes him funny. I'm funny, but I'm not a comedian.

And you can't convince me, not in a million years, that talking about black female basketball players and calling them "nappy headed hoes," whatever the hell that means, was a comedic routine they planned to talk about. That topic of conversation happened to come up and Imus said the first thing that popped in his head - those comments that got his ass fired.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat

Al Sharpton is a degenerate piece of shit who doesn't deserve to be called a Reverend and especially not a voice of the black community. Hell, at least Jesse Jackson actually contributed to the Civil Rights movement and worked with King. Sharpton hasn't done shit except cause problems for people who pose no real threat to racial relations in this country.

Sharpton became a reverend at the age of ten. Somehow, to me, that title is something that is questionable. I hear President Bush called "Mr." Bush by journalists all the time and yet they are always quick to call Al "Reverend"- where is his church exactly? And where did he train? Oops!

Some say Jesse ( I don't know how he got his reverend title) has always been in the movement to support himself. He certainly has grown wealthy (and his kids too) by threatening companies over racial issues. Some reverend.


Interesting that the thread began about the comments about Condie and Laura Bush and yet everyone is avoiding that issue and talking about Imus. I guess the comments about them aren't too relevant to the discussion. These two are Republicans so they it's ok if they are disrespected. And the media lacks outrage too. Not a surprise though.

[The Postmaster General]

Free speech has nothing to do with it. We aren't exactly locking up these people --- their employers have decided they don't want to support that content, because that's how their audience and sponsors feel. It's about as free as you can get right there - because Imus or whatever asshat is also free to go get another job or even post anything they want on the net.

They can feel free to say what ever they want, but there is no law that says your employer can't fire you for being an asshole.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I guess the comments about them aren't too relevant to the discussion. These two are Republicans so they it's ok if they are disrespected. And the media lacks outrage too. Not a surprise though.


What did you expect? It's no different than someone bringing up Columbine when talking about the Virginia Tech massacre. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're Republicans, or women for that matter. Besides, it seems like those guys are going to get apprehended in some way.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by electriclite
I mean if you're a cultural joke, interest or pariah like "The Runaway Bride" or Susan Smith, or Elizabeth Smart, its not hard to understand jokes coming at them.


It's interesting you mentioned that. Being from South Carolina, I've never heard the words "Susan Smith" not in the same sentence as "evil" and "cunt."

[Thrizzle]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Interesting that the thread began about the comments about Condie and Laura Bush and yet everyone is avoiding that issue and talking about Imus. I guess the comments about them aren't too relevant to the discussion. These two are Republicans so they it's ok if they are disrespected. And the media lacks outrage too. Not a surprise though.

I dont think that its a political issue. The link i posted was removed but it was from Limbaugh's radio show where he and his staff wrote a song called "Barack the magic negro". It didnt get any media attention and no one is crying foul about it. People say outrageous things about both sides to gain attention and i think its better if it just gets ignored.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by bigred760
Because they did the exact same thing Don Imus did not long after he got fired for making racially insensitive comments.

That is moronic.

[b]

Being funny on a radio show doesn't make him a comedian. It makes him funny. I'm funny, but I'm not a comedian.

And you can't convince me, not in a million years, that talking about black female basketball players and calling them "nappy headed hoes," whatever the hell that means, was a comedic routine they planned to talk about. That topic of conversation happened to come up and Imus said the first thing that popped in his head - those comments that got his ass fired.

Having a 30+ career in radio with a comedy show makes one a comedian.

You're arguing semantics.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Free speech has nothing to do with it. We aren't exactly locking up these people --- their employers have decided they don't want to support that content, because that's how their audience and sponsors feel. It's about as free as you can get right there - because Imus or whatever asshat is also free to go get another job or even post anything they want on the net.

They can feel free to say what ever they want, but there is no law that says your employer can't fire you for being an asshole.

I wouldn't say that it has NOTHING to do with it. While you're correct that this isn't really a legal matter or a violation of the first amendment, it certainly goes against what this country stands for. No one would have been fired if it weren't for people like Rev. Al Sharpton, who never even had a real job in his life.

[QUENTIN]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Free speech has nothing to do with it. We aren't exactly locking up these people --- their employers have decided they don't want to support that content, because that's how their audience and sponsors feel. It's about as free as you can get right there - because Imus or whatever asshat is also free to go get another job or even post anything they want on the net.

They can feel free to say what ever they want, but there is no law that says your employer can't fire you for being an asshole.

Exactly. These guys aren't being put in jail, they aren't even being blacklisted. They're losing their jobs because they are media personalities who alienated a portion of their audience and offended people who caused a fuss about it. Corporate sponsors don't want to be associated with that kind of behavior, so they shitcan the offenders. That has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with a bad business move on an entertainer's part.

I guarantee if any of these guys said something really vile, but gained a bigger audience in the process, they'd keep their jobs. Just look at Howard Stern.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
I wouldn't say that it has NOTHING to do with it. While you're correct that this isn't really a legal matter or a violation of the first amendment, it certainly goes against what this country stands for. No one would have been fired if it weren't for people like Rev. Al Sharpton, who never even had a real job in his life.

What this country stands for? What do you think this country stands for? Again, they're not in jail and hell, this country is allowing Imus to sue (or will let him) CBS for breach of contract. He'll probably get money out of the deal.

This country stands for a lot of things, but it doesn't stand for racist comments and "shenanigans" by some morons who think they can say and do anything they want because they're on the radio.


And no, I'm not arguing semantics; I just don't agree with you that these guys are "comedians." They're disc jockeys. I'm also arguing that Imus got what he deserved. I'm also thinking that the Chinese restaurant prank callers and the DJs who thought raping Laura Bush and Condi Rice deserve to be fired as well.

[JohnTheHenchman]

If that's the case I'm going to call for any black comedian who makes fun of white people to never work again, because, that's racist.

Who are you to say someone deserves to be fired? Who am I for that matter?

[someguy]

John I missed you so much *mwah* :)

[bigred760]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
If that's the case I'm going to call for any black comedian who makes fun of white people to never work again, because, that's racist.

Go for it. Knock yourself out.

But, you might run into a few problems. First, comedians rarely have bosses to fire them; they're more freelance. Which will bring me back to my argument that Don Imus is not a comedian. He wasn't doing stand-up when he made his comments, he was conversing with a co-DJ. Imus may use humor doing his show, but it is not the main reason people listen to his show. People go see comedians for the humor, and it is understood to be just that.

Who are you to say someone deserves to be fired? Who am I for that matter?

Me? . . . nobody. I had no say in him getting fired, other than telling people that I think he should be canned. It does have a lot to do with political correctness


I'll admit that there definitely is a double-standard. 'White people can't say this while black people can' and all that. But that still doesn't make what Imus and the others did right or excusable.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by someguy
John I missed you so much *mwah* :)


Hahaha. I was thinking the exact same thing reading through this thread.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by bigred760
Go for it. Knock yourself out.

But, you might run into a few problems. First, comedians rarely have bosses to fire them; they're more freelance. Which will bring me back to my argument that Don Imus is not a comedian. He wasn't doing stand-up when he made his comments, he was conversing with a co-DJ. Imus may use humor doing his show, but it is not the main reason people listen to his show. People go see comedians for the humor, and it is understood to be just that.

[b]

Me? . . . nobody. I had no say in him getting fired, other than telling people that I think he should be canned. It does have a lot to do with political correctness


I'll admit that there definitely is a double-standard. 'White people can't say this while black people can' and all that. But that still doesn't make what Imus and the others did right or excusable.

I didn't say for them to be fired, I said for them to not be able to work anywhere. HBO should never give Chris Rock another special, because he said whitey can't dance.

COMEDY is the main reason that Imus had a show that last as long as he did. If you ever listened to one show, you would realize that comedy and especially satire were his strong points.

[The Postmaster General]

Also, you are free to say whatever you want, but anyone else is free to not pay you for saying such things. The fact that what Imus said is freely distributed and available to be read or heard, even in some cases despite copyright laws that should disallow it being heard at that time --- That's free speech.

John, if you regularly watch black comedians who offend you, I encourage you to counter their statements, with ones of your own. If you are offended by proxy even, I say speak up, because you should exercise the freedom to say what's on your mind. Maybe you could even heckle them if given a chance.

However, if you aren't really part of these comedians' audience, and you speaking up isn't going to affect putting money in their pocket, I don't know how effective things will be. In the Imus case, apparently a lot of the same people who are privy to Al Sharpton know about MSNBC too, so things got a little rocky there. And Imus lost that one.

Don Imus is like a modern day Janet Jackson's breast - some people might enjoy it, but there might be better venues for that sort of exposure.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Don Imus is like a modern day Janet Jackson's breast - some people might enjoy it, but there might be better venues for that sort of exposure.

And don't forget Imus is a total boob.

[someguy]

It appears that free speech is not dead, Jerry Falwell is

Common mistake

[Vong]

Originally posted by someguy
It appears that free speech is not dead, Jerry Falwell is

YAY!!! :D

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Also, you are free to say whatever you want, but anyone else is free to not pay you for saying such things. The fact that what Imus said is freely distributed and available to be read or heard, even in some cases despite copyright laws that should disallow it being heard at that time --- That's free speech.

John, if you regularly watch black comedians who offend you, I encourage you to counter their statements, with ones of your own. If you are offended by proxy even, I say speak up, because you should exercise the freedom to say what's on your mind. Maybe you could even heckle them if given a chance.

However, if you aren't really part of these comedians' audience, and you speaking up isn't going to affect putting money in their pocket, I don't know how effective things will be. In the Imus case, apparently a lot of the same people who are privy to Al Sharpton know about MSNBC too, so things got a little rocky there. And Imus lost that one.

Don Imus is like a modern day Janet Jackson's breast - some people might enjoy it, but there might be better venues for that sort of exposure.

No but you see, for the most part these black comedians are funny to me.

The problem is that so many people have sticks up their asses and decide to band together into interest groups. It's terrible how so few could weild so much power.

There's a silent majority in this country. You know what they do if there's something on the radio they don't like? They change the station.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
No but you see, for the most part these black comedians are funny to me.

The problem is that so many people have sticks up their asses and decide to band together into interest groups. It's terrible how so few could weild so much power.

There's a silent majority in this country. You know what they do if there's something on the radio they don't like? They change the station.


Oh, yeah. I won't argue that too many people are just too damn serious about stuff - namely the wrong stuff.

In regards to free speech, I will say that I'm not happy that rappers get threatened to have their contracts dropped, while we still have the occasional KKK rally and parade - Again, though - It's all free speech, but the perspectives seem distorted when it comes to those who complain. If Al Sharpton consistently complained and fought to stop things like Hate Sites and the dissemination of propaganda that directly sets out to harm blacks (as opposed to acts that might offend blacks) -- I'd have that much more respect for him.

Free speech isn't dead. but the things we choose to do in order to evoke free speech - It's a sad state of affairs. I can see how it would be as good as dead to some people.