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QUENTIN
06-18-2007, 03:15 AM
From the NY Times:

U.S. Arming Sunnis in Iraq to Battle Old Qaeda Allies

BAGHDAD, June 10 — With the four-month-old increase in American troops showing only modest success in curbing insurgent attacks, American commanders are turning to another strategy that they acknowledge is fraught with risk: arming Sunni Arab groups that have promised to fight militants linked with Al Qaeda who have been their allies in the past.

American commanders say they have successfully tested the strategy in Anbar Province west of Baghdad and have held talks with Sunni groups in at least four areas of central and north-central Iraq where the insurgency has been strong. In some cases, the American commanders say, the Sunni groups are suspected of involvement in past attacks on American troops or of having links to such groups. Some of these groups, they say, have been provided, usually through Iraqi military units allied with the Americans, with arms, ammunition, cash, fuel and supplies.

American officers who have engaged in what they call outreach to the Sunni groups say many of them have had past links to Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia but grew disillusioned with the Islamic militants’ extremist tactics, particularly suicide bombings that have killed thousands of Iraqi civilians. In exchange for American backing, these officials say, the Sunni groups have agreed to fight Al Qaeda and halt attacks on American units. Commanders who have undertaken these negotiations say that in some cases, Sunni groups have agreed to alert American troops to the location of roadside bombs and other lethal booby traps.

But critics of the strategy, including some American officers, say it could amount to the Americans’ arming both sides in a future civil war. The United States has spent more than $15 billion in building up Iraq’s army and police force, whose manpower of 350,000 is heavily Shiite. With an American troop drawdown increasingly likely in the next year, and little sign of a political accommodation between Shiite and Sunni politicians in Baghdad, the critics say, there is a risk that any weapons given to Sunni groups will eventually be used against Shiites. There is also the possibility the weapons could be used against the Americans themselves.

American field commanders met this month in Baghdad with Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, to discuss the conditions Sunni groups would have to meet to win American assistance. Senior officers who attended the meeting said that General Petraeus and the operational commander who is the second-ranking American officer here, Lt. Gen. Raymond T. Odierno, gave cautious approval to field commanders to negotiate with Sunni groups in their areas.

One commander who attended the meeting said that despite the risks in arming groups that have until now fought against the Americans, the potential gains against Al Qaeda were too great to be missed. He said the strategy held out the prospect of finally driving a wedge between two wings of the Sunni insurgency that had previously worked in a devastating alliance — die-hard loyalists of Saddam Hussein’s formerly dominant Baath Party, and Islamic militants belonging to a constellation of groups linked to Al Qaeda.

Even if only partly successful, the officer said, the strategy could do as much or more to stabilize Iraq, and to speed American troops on their way home, as the increase in troops ordered by President Bush late last year, which has thrown nearly 30,000 additional American troops into the war but failed so far to fulfill the aim of bringing enhanced stability to Baghdad. An initial decline in sectarian killings in Baghdad in the first two months of the troop buildup has reversed, with growing numbers of bodies showing up each day in the capital. Suicide bombings have dipped in Baghdad but increased elsewhere, as Qaeda groups, confronted with great American troop numbers, have shifted their operations elsewhere.

The strategy of arming Sunni groups was first tested earlier this year in Anbar Province, the desert hinterland west of Baghdad, and attacks on American troops plunged after tribal sheiks, angered by Qaeda strikes that killed large numbers of Sunni civilians, recruited thousands of men to join government security forces and the tribal police. With Qaeda groups quitting the province for Sunni havens elsewhere, Anbar has lost its long-held reputation as the most dangerous place in Iraq for American troops.

Now, the Americans are testing the “Anbar model” across wide areas of Sunni-dominated Iraq. The areas include parts of Baghdad, notably the Sunni stronghold of Amiriya, a district that flanks the highway leading to Baghdad’s international airport; the area south of the capital in Babil province known as the Triangle of Death, site of an ambush in which four American soldiers were killed last month and three others abducted, one of whose bodies was found in the Euphrates; Diyala Province north and east of Baghdad, an area of lush palm groves and orchards which has replaced Anbar as Al Qaeda’s main sanctuary in Iraq; and Salahuddin Province, also north of Baghdad, the home area of Saddam Hussein.

Although the American engagement with the Sunni groups has brought some early successes against Al Qaeda, particularly in Anbar, many of the problems that hampered earlier American efforts to reach out to insurgents remain unchanged. American commanders say the Sunni groups they are negotiating with show few signs of wanting to work with the Shiite-led government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki. For their part, Shiite leaders are deeply suspicious of any American move to co-opt Sunni groups that are wedded to a return to Sunni political dominance.

With the agreement to arm some Sunni groups, the Americans also appear to have made a tacit recognition that earlier demands for the disarming of Shiite militia groups are politically unachievable for now given the refusal of powerful Shiite political parties to shed their armed wings. In effect, the Americans seem to have concluded that as long as the Shiites maintain their militias, Shiite leaders are in a poor position to protest the arming of Sunni groups whose activities will be under close American scrutiny.

But officials of Mr. Maliki’s government have placed strict limits on the Sunni groups they are willing to countenance as allies in the fight against Al Qaeda. One leading Shiite politician, Sheik Khalik al-Atiyah, the deputy Parliament speaker, said in a recent interview that he would rule out any discussion of an amnesty for Sunni Arab insurgents, even those who commit to fighting Al Qaeda. Similarly, many American commanders oppose rewarding Sunni Arab groups who have been responsible, even tangentially, for any of the more than 29,000 American casualties in the war, including more than 3,500 deaths. Equally daunting for American commanders is the risk that Sunni groups receiving American backing could effectively double-cross the Americans, taking weapons and turning them against American and Iraq’s Shiite-dominated government forces.

Americans officers acknowledge that providing weapons to breakaway rebel groups is not new in counterinsurgency warfare, and that in places where it has been tried before, including the French colonial war in Algeria, the British-led fight against insurgents in Malaya in the early 1950s, and in Vietnam, the effort often backfired, with weapons given to the rebels being turned against the forces providing them. Maj. Gen. Rick Lynch, commander of the Third Infantry Division and leader of an American task force fighting in a wide area between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers immediately south of Baghdad, said at a briefing for reporters on Sunday that no American support would be given to any Sunni group that had attacked Americans. If the Americans negotiating with Sunni groups in his area had “specific information” that the group or any of its members had killed Americans, he said, “The negotiation is going to go like this: ‘You’re under arrest, and you’re going with me.’ I’m not going to go out and negotiate with folks who have American blood on their hands.”

One of the conditions set by the American commanders who met in Baghdad was that any group receiving weapons must submit its fighters for biometric tests that would include taking fingerprints and retinal scans. The American conditions, senior officers said, also include registering the serial numbers of all weapons, steps the Americans believe will help in tracing fighters who use the weapons in attacks against American or Iraqi troops. The fighters who have received American backing in the Amiriya district of Baghdad were required to undergo the tests, the officers said.

The requirement that no support be given to insurgent groups that have attacked Americans appeared to have been set aside or loosely enforced in negotiations with the Sunni groups elsewhere, including Amiriya, where American units that have supported Sunni groups fighting to oust Al Qaeda have told reporters they believe that the Sunni groups include insurgents who had fought the Americans. The Americans have bolstered Sunni groups in Amiriya by empowering them to detain suspected Qaeda fighters and approving ammunition supplies to Sunni fighters from Iraqi Army units.

In Anbar, there have been negotiations with factions from the 1920 Revolution Brigades, a Sunni insurgent group with strong Baathist links that has a history of attacking Americans. In Diyala, insurgents who have joined the Iraqi Army have told reporters that they switched sides after working for the 1920 group. And in an agreement announced by the American command on Sunday, 130 tribal sheiks in Salahuddin met in the provincial capital, Tikrit, to form police units that would “defend” against Al Qaeda.

General Lynch said American commanders would face hard decisions in choosing which groups to support. “This isn’t a black and white place,” he said. “There are good guys and bad guys and there are groups in between,” and separating them was a major challenge. He said some groups that had approached the Americans had made no secret of their enmity.

“They say, ‘We hate you because you are occupiers’ ” he said, “ ‘but we hate Al Qaeda worse, and we hate the Persians even more.’ ” Sunni militants refer to Iraq’s Shiites as Persians, a reference to the strong links between Iraqi Shiites and the Shiites who predominate in Iran.

An Iraqi government official who was reached by telephone on Sunday said the government was uncomfortable with the American negotiations with the Sunni groups because they offered no guarantee that the militias would be loyal to anyone other than the American commander in their immediate area. “The government’s aim is to disarm and demobilize the militias in Iraq,” said Sadiq al-Rikabi, a political adviser to Mr. Maliki. “And we have enough militias in Iraq that we are struggling now to solve the problem. Why are we creating new ones?”

Despite such views, General Lynch said, the Americans believed that Sunni groups offering to fight Al Qaeda and halt attacks on American and Iraqi forces met a basic condition for re-establishing stability in insurgent-hit areas: they had roots in the areas where they operated, and thus held out the prospect of building security from the ground up. He cited areas in Babil Province where there were “no security forces, zero, zilch,” and added: “When you’ve got people who say, ‘I want to protect my neighbors,’ we ought to jump like a duck on a june bug.”


Apparently, no matter how many times we try tactics like this and they always invariably result in America-funded atrocities and never work, we will continue to do it. Funding militant Muslims who have been targeting American forces so far just seems like a good plan, doesn't it? Maybe the idea is that it's failed so many times and resulted in so many embarassments (oh, and 9/11) that it's due for success. At the very least, we know that now both sides of the continuing civil war being waged in Iraq will be well-armed, so it's a fairer fight.

Next on the agenda is selling arms to Iran to fund this nice little group of Nicaraguan folks...

Scarfather
06-18-2007, 10:46 AM
This totally worked last time.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8199/afghanistanyp0.gif

electriclite
06-18-2007, 03:52 PM
I have an idea, let's ship a bunch of highschool issue History textbooks to the White House.

Because clearly they're not in possession of at least one.

The Postmaster General
06-19-2007, 10:27 AM
But they seem like such nice people.

MacReady
06-19-2007, 03:58 PM
I wonder if George Orwell's estate has ever considered suing the U.S. government over their blatant plagiarism of his novel's storylines...

Brando @$$ Fat
06-19-2007, 05:51 PM
That's so ironic that we're backing the Sunni's when Saddamn Hussein himself was a Sunni and I believe Bin Laden also.....the same kind of people we wanted to remove. If anything, they're just taking a page out of the Reagan playbook: support and fund terrorists who will kill a lot of innocent people because they're only a fraction of a percent better than the other side.

The Postmaster General
06-20-2007, 11:26 AM
Yeah, but to these people, Reagan did no wrong.

EVILxxx
06-20-2007, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
That's so ironic that we're backing the Sunni's when Saddamn Hussein himself was a Sunni and I believe Bin Laden also.....the same kind of people we wanted to remove. If anything, they're just taking a page out of the Reagan playbook: support and fund terrorists who will kill a lot of innocent people because they're only a fraction of a percent better than the other side.


All Sunni's do not stink alike, and Most Muslims Sunnis or otherwise hate Al Queda. The Shiite death squads are almost as problematic in Iraq than the Sunni insurgency, but I still do not think this is a good idea. There are other ways to reach out to Sunni groups without arming them.

SAI
06-20-2007, 12:56 PM
I guess they just want to get the civil war out of the way now. What a fucking mess.

Brando @$$ Fat
06-20-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by EVILxxx
All Sunni's do not stink alike, and Most Muslims Sunnis or otherwise hate Al Queda. The Shiite death squads are almost as problematic in Iraq than the Sunni insurgency, but I still do not think this is a good idea. There are other ways to reach out to Sunni groups without arming them.

I suppose so but either way we're funding people who will be just as bad as Bin Laden and Hussein if given any political power.

EVILxxx
06-20-2007, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
I suppose so but either way we're funding people who will be just as bad as Bin Laden and Hussein if given any political power.

They wouldn't have the pull if it is a representative democracy as Shiites far outnumber them.

MacReady
06-20-2007, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by EVILxxx
They wouldn't have the pull if it is a representative democracy as Shiites far outnumber them.

Prooving how retarded the war was in the first place. How do you know if they won't start pulling off the same crap that the Al-Queda's doing and becoming death squads as well?

QUENTIN
06-20-2007, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
That's so ironic that we're backing the Sunni's when Saddamn Hussein himself was a Sunni and I believe Bin Laden also.....the same kind of people we wanted to remove. If anything, they're just taking a page out of the Reagan playbook: support and fund terrorists who will kill a lot of innocent people because they're only a fraction of a percent better than the other side.

That's basically the equivalent of if we armed the self-proclaimed "minute men" watching our southern border (also a terrible idea), then criticized the move because "We shouldn't back Protestants when Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber were Protestant." Sunnis are the larger segment of the Muslim faith which makes them the second largest religious group in the world. They've certainly got more than their fair share of bad apples, but Hussein and Bin Laden aren't representative of the vast majority of Sunnis or their goals and beliefs. I think the average Sunni, like the average person anywhere, just doesn't want to get blown up, shot, or have their business destroyed by terrorists, insurgents, coalition troops, or anyone else.

As for the Reagan comparison, it's right on the money, but as Bubba pointed out, the problem is that even though Reagan made nothing but bad decisions, fucked up the economy worse than anyone in 50 years (til Bush), had horrendous and sickening values, and was the second-worst diplomat in the latter half of the twentieth century, to the right he's the second-coming. An accurate criticism of this plan would be to call it Reaganesque, but then that'd only be taken as a compliment by those who engineered it.

What I'm most worried about to be honest is the blowback that's going to result from this. We're going to be dealing with pissed off, militant, now highly trained and armed people on a regular basis for the next 60 years at least and I don't really see anyway to turn back the clock and change that now.

Brando @$$ Fat
06-20-2007, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by QUENTIN
That's basically the equivalent of if we armed the self-proclaimed "minute men" watching our southern border (also a terrible idea), then criticized the move because "We shouldn't back Protestants when Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber were Protestant." Sunnis are the larger segment of the Muslim faith which makes them the second largest religious group in the world. They've certainly got more than their fair share of bad apples, but Hussein and Bin Laden aren't representative of the vast majority of Sunnis or their goals and beliefs. I think the average Sunni, like the average person anywhere, just doesn't want to get blown up, shot, or have their business destroyed by terrorists, insurgents, coalition troops, or anyone else.


I didn't mean Sunnis in general but the Sunni insurgency I imagine would be filled with Hussein-sympathizers.

EVILxxx
06-20-2007, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by MacReady
Prooving how retarded the war was in the first place. How do you know if they won't start pulling off the same crap that the Al-Queda's doing and becoming death squads as well?

I don't, which is why in my previous post I said this was a bad idea. I was referring to Brando's idea that if the Sunni insurgency achieves political legitimacy and becomes part of the Iraqi government, they would end up being just like Saddam. This wouldn't happen because Saddam had total control over Iraq while now the majority of power lies with the Shiites.

boombche_stum
06-20-2007, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by QUENTIN
That's basically the equivalent of if we armed the self-proclaimed "minute men" watching our southern border (also a terrible idea), then criticized the move because "We shouldn't back Protestants when Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber were Protestant." Sunnis are the larger segment of the Muslim faith which makes them the second largest religious group in the world. They've certainly got more than their fair share of bad apples, but Hussein and Bin Laden aren't representative of the vast majority of Sunnis or their goals and beliefs. I think the average Sunni, like the average person anywhere, just doesn't want to get blown up, shot, or have their business destroyed by terrorists, insurgents, coalition troops, or anyone else.

As for the Reagan comparison, it's right on the money, but as Bubba pointed out, the problem is that even though Reagan made nothing but bad decisions, fucked up the economy worse than anyone in 50 years (til Bush), had horrendous and sickening values, and was the second-worst diplomat in the latter half of the twentieth century, to the right he's the second-coming. An accurate criticism of this plan would be to call it Reaganesque, but then that'd only be taken as a compliment by those who engineered it.

What I'm most worried about to be honest is the blowback that's going to result from this. We're going to be dealing with pissed off, militant, now highly trained and armed people on a regular basis for the next 60 years at least and I don't really see anyway to turn back the clock and change that now.

As far as your statements about Sunn's.... it's all wrong. I think people need to quit being so PC about religion and just say what needs to be said. In this case, primarily with Islam.

We need to begin to educate ourselves on the ins and outs of religion in general with special mind to Islam because most are blind to the teachings in the Qu'Ran and of the prophet Muhammad.

Realistically, Sunnis and Shias are no different in their true goals.

That of Jihad for instance: (Which literally means Struggle, not "holy war")

Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calender), have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat (the Islamic ritual prayers)), and give Zakat (alms), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. - Qu'Ran, Sura 9:5.

(Keep in mind this verse holds true today due to the idea of "Abrogation" put forth in the Qu'Ran by Allah himself... this means that passages revealed later in Muhammads carreer, abrogate "Cancel and replace" earlier ones that may directly contradict the later:

"Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We (Allah) abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?" 2:106. )

Most people probably have no idea of things like these that present themselves in the Qu'Ran and directly in the faith of Muslims despite different sects. No one is better than the other, period.

Brando @$$ Fat
06-21-2007, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by EVILxxx
I don't, which is why in my previous post I said this was a bad idea. I was referring to Brando's idea that if the Sunni insurgency achieves political legitimacy and becomes part of the Iraqi government, they would end up being just like Saddam. This wouldn't happen because Saddam had total control over Iraq while now the majority of power lies with the Shiites.


There COULD eventually be a shift in power. Although, at this point a shift in power would take a long time, certainly not during Bush's presidency. I do agree that a complete grasp over the country will probably not happen.

Either way, I don't think we're ever going to be happy with who takes over. I guess at this point the Sunnis are a fraction of a percent better but certainly not worth the effort of arming and supporting.

Tuukka
06-21-2007, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by boombche_stum
As far as your statements about Sunn's.... it's all wrong. I think people need to quit being so PC about religion and just say what needs to be said. In this case, primarily with Islam.

We need to begin to educate ourselves on the ins and outs of religion in general with special mind to Islam because most are blind to the teachings in the Qu'Ran and of the prophet Muhammad.

Realistically, Sunnis and Shias are no different in their true goals.

That of Jihad for instance: (Which literally means Struggle, not "holy war")

Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calender), have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat (the Islamic ritual prayers)), and give Zakat (alms), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. - Qu'Ran, Sura 9:5.

(Keep in mind this verse holds true today due to the idea of "Abrogation" put forth in the Qu'Ran by Allah himself... this means that passages revealed later in Muhammads carreer, abrogate "Cancel and replace" earlier ones that may directly contradict the later:

"Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We (Allah) abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?" 2:106. )

Most people probably have no idea of things like these that present themselves in the Qu'Ran and directly in the faith of Muslims despite different sects. No one is better than the other, period.

That's silly.

First of all Quentin wasn't even trying to claim that Sunni's would be better than Shia's, or vice versa. And secondly:

Not all christians follow every single thing written in the Bible. Equally, not all muslims follow every single word written in the Koran. Which essentially breaks down your entire argument.

The great majority of muslims just want to live in peace, and that's it. For example the largest muslim county in the world, the democratic Indonesia, is USA's ally and they are strongly against fundamentalistic muslims.

QUENTIN
06-21-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
I didn't mean Sunnis in general but the Sunni insurgency I imagine would be filled with Hussein-sympathizers.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were making a generalization about Sunnis. In large part because of poor reporting, many Americans don't know the difference between religious groups and terrorist or political groups.


Originally posted by boombche_stum
As far as your statements about Sunn's.... it's all wrong. I think people need to quit being so PC about religion and just say what needs to be said. In this case, primarily with Islam.

We need to begin to educate ourselves on the ins and outs of religion in general with special mind to Islam because most are blind to the teachings in the Qu'Ran and of the prophet Muhammad.

Realistically, Sunnis and Shias are no different in their true goals.

That of Jihad for instance: (Which literally means Struggle, not "holy war")

Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calender), have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat (the Islamic ritual prayers)), and give Zakat (alms), then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. - Qu'Ran, Sura 9:5.

(Keep in mind this verse holds true today due to the idea of "Abrogation" put forth in the Qu'Ran by Allah himself... this means that passages revealed later in Muhammads carreer, abrogate "Cancel and replace" earlier ones that may directly contradict the later:

"Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We (Allah) abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?" 2:106. )

Most people probably have no idea of things like these that present themselves in the Qu'Ran and directly in the faith of Muslims despite different sects. No one is better than the other, period.

I'm sorry, but how was I "all wrong" about what I said about Sunnis? When I stated the fact that they're the second largest religious group in the world or twhen I said they would prefer not to be killed or have their businesses destroyed?

I'm not PC about religion, but I have a working and realistic understanding of Islam, not one that just comes from the Koran. My best friend of 7 years and roommate happens to be a Sunni Muslim (he's a cool guy, you'd like him, he's a big-time pacifist too) and through him and his large family, I've come to know many Muslims from all over the U.S., India, Pakistan, and the Middle East. I went to see Batman Begins with 5 guys from Afghanistan, all of whom were more interested in the batmobile than Shariah. The majority of people in general tend to be moderate, that's just something that holds true across national borders, religious identity, gender, etc.

If you were to assess what Christians are like and what their goals are as a group (I'd argue they're much too large a group to have one goal) based on the Bible, you would erroneously think they were okay with keeping slaves and they are trying to bring about judgment day so they can all get to heaven. Whereas in reality, while well over a billion people believe in Jesus as their savior, most don't follow every violent and archaic passage in the Bible.

Similarly, if the goals of all Muslims were the same and they were to do as you say, why aren't the billion Muslims in the world out killing unbelievers all the time and forcing everyone to repent and accept Allah? The answer is of course because only a small percentage of their populace is radical. And while there are more radical or violent Muslims than there are Christians, that has more to do with the luck of geography than religion. The fact is, most Muslims are not trying to declare Jihad, most just want to live in peace. The same can be said of humans as a group.

MadsenOMC
06-21-2007, 05:04 PM
Good post Quentin.

boombche_stum
06-21-2007, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Tuukka
That's silly.

First of all Quentin wasn't even trying to claim that Sunni's would be better than Shia's, or vice versa. And secondly:

Not all christians follow every single thing written in the Bible. Equally, not all muslims follow every single word written in the Koran. Which essentially breaks down your entire argument.

The great majority of muslims just want to live in peace, and that's it. For example the largest muslim county in the world, the democratic Indonesia, is USA's ally and they are strongly against fundamentalistic muslims.

There are fundamental differences you are failing to notice in this equation. Yes, not all Christians follow EVERYTHING written in the bible, this why there are so many different sects... they all have different interpretations of the same thing. However, all of them hold certain things to be true. The bible is the word of God. And the commandments given to the people by God, along with the teachings of Christ are an integral part of life if one wishes to be a Christian at all. The same goes for the Islamic faith, but on a much larger level. After all, the Qu'Ran is found to be, by any true follower of Islam (not fundamentalist), the literal word of Allah, bestowed upon the prophet Muhammad over a more than 20 year career. The Qu'Ran and the Hadiths (Literally translated to "reports" of Muhammad's life, which they hold in very high regard and teach to children at a very young age) are the structure for their way of life. Period. I shouldn't even have to bring more verses from their Holy Book that strictly condemn faultering from Allah's will.

As far as Indonesia goes:

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/indones/articles/20061209.aspx

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/12/14/MN182791.DTL

The war between Muslims and Christians has raged on there for years, killing thousands if not more, and in many cases either not being stopped by the government or being backhandedly supported... despite them and Pakistan supposedly taking initiative to stop Muslim milittancy.

As far as peace goes, it will never happen in the Islamic world. You and I both know this to be true. Sure, there are some who wish to be left alone, but think about it... how many celebrated when the twin towers fell? That is not to say our interventionist and hypocritical foreign policy has nothing to do with them hating us, however... most of it is engrained in their religious beliefs. And because of this, their area of the world has NEVER been at peace with one another or those who do not believe. I ask you then, and everybody on here, how exactly these "radicals" are in the minority? Preach on a street corner in Iran that Islam tolerates all other religions and that it is one of peace and you will probably last no longer than a few minutes before you are killed.

My problem isn't the people who claim to NOT follow the Qu'Ran however, it is that NOT ONE of them can dispute what many Jihadists say when using the Qu'Ran to endorse their evil deeds, other than the religion itself is supposedly of peace. Well, lying about it will do no good. And certainly not lying to ourselves.

MadsenOMC
06-21-2007, 05:13 PM
Is that like when Christians use the bible to support bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors who perform abortions? Or when they use the bible to preach hatred and intolerance?