Aliens.....

[Hominid]

It's not all that great, In fact, it was nothing but a shitty attempt to make money of an old classic. Most involved needed money at the itme despite what they try to say (Weaver, Cameron). Sorry guys, But a realy well made big dumb action movie......is still jsut a big dumb action movie.

[LordSimen]

A big dumb action movie about motherhood. A sequal that takes the original concept of the original and expands upon it. No, I'm sorry, it's as great as everyone believes it to be. It's one of the best sequals ever made and one of the best action movies ever made period.

[Hominid]

Originally posted by LordSimen
A big dumb action movie about motherhood. A sequal that takes the original concept of the original and expands upon it. No, I'm sorry, it's as great as everyone believes it to be. It's one of the best sequals ever made and one of the best action movies ever made period.

Oh I surel ove themes of motherhood in an action movie, I mean, who doesen't love a cheap way to easily throw a kid in danger and call it a theme? I guess every stupid action movie that puts kids in peril is Sophie's Fucking Choice.

Expands on the original? Alien is better in every god damn way.Alien is an Ameircan Classic, Aliens just tries ot hit that level by giving you a hundred times more what we got in Alien. Alien is fucking Henry Fonda while Aliens is fucking Peter Fonda. And not Easy Rider Peter Fonda. Ghost Rider Peter Fonda. Not to mention Aliens caused Alien to become a shit franchise of ridiculous prortions.

Oh yeah in case oyu haven't figured it out osme peopel have idfferent opinions then the general opion....So just saying "everyone says it's great" doesen't help at all. In fact, the general opinion would aslo say At World's End is a way better thriller than something like Psycho or Vertigo.

[LordSimen]

Originally posted by Hominid
Oh I surel ove themes of motherhood in an action movie, I mean, who doesen't love a cheap way to easily throw a kid in danger and call it a theme? I guess every stupid action movie that puts kids in peril is Sophie's Fucking Choice.

Movie opens up with a creature coming out of a woman's stomache, parallelling child birth. Movie also inludes a main character, a female, protagonist who finds out that her child died while she was in kyrosleep. Woman doesn't decide to actually help the company when the news that the communications went down untill she was told that the colony was filled with families. Woman goes down there and finds a child, one whose survived through the very same horror she survived through in the first movie. She connects with the child, and protects her. Woman ends up helping military team fight and survive in a compound filled with creatures who ends up taking the little girl. She goes and saves the little girl only to find that the creatures themselves have a queen... A mom. Movie ends with a gigantic showdown between one mother protecting her child and another angry over the death of hers.

The movie is about Motherhood. It's not just a theme, it's the entire plotline.


Originally posted by Hominid
Expands on the original? Alien is better in every god damn way.Alien is an Ameircan Classic, Aliens just tries ot hit that level by giving you a hundred times more what we got in Alien. Alien is fucking Henry Fonda while Aliens is fucking Peter Fonda. And not Easy Rider Peter Fonda. Ghost Rider Peter Fonda. Not to mention Aliens caused Alien to become a shit franchise of ridiculous prortions.

The original movie, while amazing and a classic, presented Ripley as nothing more than simply a trucker trying to survive. The second movie took her on a journey of facing her own fears and through the pain and suffering of motherhood.

First movie provided one alien with no explanation of the species, second movie explained the species further equating them to Ants. First movie showed they had eggs, second movie showed where the eggs would come from. Second movie took what was set in the original and expanded upon it.

Oh yeah in case oyu haven't figured it out osme peopel have idfferent opinions then the general opion....So just saying "everyone says it's great" doesen't help at all. In fact, the general opinion would aslo say At World's End is a way better thriller than something like Psycho or Vertigo.

General opinion likes both movies, and I am inclined to agree with that, thus I stated that the movie is as good as everyone says it is. If you have a problem with me agreeing with the general opinion, that's your deal.

I happen to think both movies are Classics.

[electriclite]

LordSimen has done a thorough job of defending Aliens.

Keep in mind Homind, no one is arguing your opinion just the "facts" you use to back up your opinion... which are not facts. Hence the sharp scrutiny.

Like that little statement about Weaver and Cameron being hard up for cash.

Since "Alien" Weaver had worked consecutively in six films, one of them being the BLOCKBUSTER Ghostbusters. James Cameron was paid quite well for his treatment for Aliens, not to mention writing Rambo: First Blood Part 2 and of course directing and writing the FREAKING TERMINATOR!

If someone in Hollywood wants to make some easy cash, they don't do it by involving themselves in a difficult action film which requires lots of training, preparation and safety guidelines especially when it comes to shooting live rounds, which was especially difficult for Weaver since she is a real life gun control advocate. If you're in it for easy cash you're not all that creative and you don't come up with a completely original creature like the Alien Queen yet still have it look like it belongs in the same family as the Alien.

Cameron wrote a script that created the DEFINITIVE three dimensional female action heroine (which EVERY MOVIE since has been trying to duplicate) whose deep, internal momentum pushes her through the story instead of just the plot. We're given characters that we care about as the story progresses and whose loss we mourn when they are taken down by the Aliens (and in the sequel). We have some of the most innovative special effects and editing done at the time thanks to Cameron and we have an OSCAR NOMINATED PERFORMANCE by Sigourney Weaver!

THAT'S Aliens.


That ain't dumb and shitty by any stretch of the imagination.


If you just don't like a movie, leave it at that. But don't try to make up "facts" that can easily be refuted, especially by diehard fans who've had over 20 years to scrutinize and pour over the structure, craft and legacy of the film.

[bigred760]

Alien and Aliens are both awesome movies, but for different reasons.

Alien is a classic horror/suspense film. Aliens is a classic action film with deep subthemes - such as motherhood. But that subtheme is not the dominant plot of the movie so therefore it's not a distraction to what the movie is trying to deliver.

And Aliens in no way hurt the franchise. The franchise still kicks plenty of ass because of the first two. It may have taken a minor blow because of the last two (and the AvP movie), but other than that the franchise still stands as one of the best ever assembled.

[gyro_44]

Originally posted by Hominid
It's not all that great, In fact, it was nothing but a shitty attempt to make money of an old classic. Most involved needed money at the itme despite what they try to say (Weaver, Cameron). Sorry guys, But a realy well made big dumb action movie......is still jsut a big dumb action movie.
You know, "most involved needed money" is really a ridiculous assessment. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have a look at the bankbooks of everyone involved? I'm sure Cameron was really hurting after The Terminator.

Of course, you could say that about most sequels and sometimes they indeed are blatant cash-ins. But I do not agree that Aliens is one. Sure it's more of an action movie, but I think it's a very cool progression of the story established in Alien, and a very creative and exciting direction for the franchise to go in. I think Weaver is great in this film and Cameron did a fantastic job turning Ripley into a believable flesh and blood heroine.

If it is a big dumb action movie, then it's the very best big dumb action movie ever made. In my opinion.

I think both Alien and Aliens are terrific, in their own ways. So we disagree.

[outsyder]

Warning, contains SPOILERS.

Another thing that Aliens did much better than Alien was character development. Both the central and supporting characters were all definitively created with unique personalities and relationships that were all memorable in their own way. Hudson, Hicks, Bishop, Vasquez, Gorman, Ripley, Newt, Burke, and others.

Ripley was far and away a more dynamic character than she was in the first, using her relationship with Newt combined with the loss of her own daughter to create an incredible on-screen bond that resulted in an Oscar nomination. The Ripley of Alien did not have that extra dimension to her character.

Hicks, who may be labeled as the cliche, army tough guy is slightly more than just that. Quiet and reserved, he is thrust into the spotlight of command, where he finds that he is able to both listen and direct in becoming an effective leader.

Bishop, being considered as an untrustworthy ally because of the events of the first film, furthers the notion due to his eccentric and emotionally cold nature. Despite these character traits, he proves to be one of the most human characters, risking danger to protect the remaining survivors.

Vasquez, the tough as nails female marine, who shares a relationship with Crowe that may be more than just platonic has her mettle tested throughout the film, not only in being the only female in a group of male marines, thusly being a target (namely by Hudson), but through the events of the film as well. She proves that her image is also the substance of her character, as she remains true to her image as unshakable until the end.

In contrast, Hudson, who has a brash and arrogant nature before the mission to LV-426, breaks down and nearly loses his mind. As seen during his central moment of weakness, it is Vasquez, the marine he previously ridiculed, who forces him to remember his duty and serves as an inspiration to keep his wits about him.

Gorman, the man in charge of the mission, is admittedly green before the mission begins, but remains confident in his abilities. After the disaster at the cooling tower, where he is proven to be an inadequate leader and violently removed from command (literally), attempts to regain his confidence and the trust of others through his dutiful behavior and acceptance that he is no longer in control.

Newt, the little girl visibly shaken by the shock of losing her family and having her life completely uprooted, finds a bond with Ripley due to the losses that she suffered, something that when they meet, no one else can claim to have suffered so recently. Although I mentioned it earlier, it really is amazing how both Ripley and Newt find strength from each other constantly throughout the film.

Finally, Burke, who proves to have a binary relationship with Bishop, is seen as a reasonable man, and the only person who will defend Ripley from Weyland-Yutani lawyers. Through the first half of the film, he is seen as an anomaly in the corporate world, an honest person. But as we learn, it is only a facade, as by Bishop (who has his own character establishing moment at the end of the film), we learn that Burke has his own agenda, even willing to kill everyone left alive in order to achieve that. In contrast, we see Bishop begin the film as a distant character that slowly builds trust, eventually proving his true character in a signature moment, while Burke takes the same path in the opposite direction.

Alien is not even close to the levels of the character development of Aliens, whether it be among the main characters or the supplementary ones. As we see from Cameron's effort, the painstakingly built characters of the world of Aliens add an entirely new dimension to the film, and push it beyond the title of mindless action film. Combine that with the recurring themes and binaries in both story elements and the characters, and you have a film that surpasses the original. Although they are both different in their intention and their execution, the main reason why I consider Aliens to be a better film is the addition of this extra dimension of character that Alien does not have, as it's characters do not hold up well to the detailed analysis that the characters from Aliens do.

[Hominid]

Originally posted by LordSimen
Movie opens up with a creature coming out of a woman's stomache, parallelling child birth. Movie also inludes a main character, a female, protagonist who finds out that her child died while she was in kyrosleep. Woman doesn't decide to actually help the company when the news that the communications went down untill she was told that the colony was filled with families. Woman goes down there and finds a child, one whose survived through the very same horror she survived through in the first movie. She connects with the child, and protects her. Woman ends up helping military team fight and survive in a compound filled with creatures who ends up taking the little girl. She goes and saves the little girl only to find that the creatures themselves have a queen... A mom. Movie ends with a gigantic showdown between one mother protecting her child and another angry over the death of hers.

The movie is about Motherhood. It's not just a theme, it's the entire plotline.

The original movie, while amazing and a classic, presented Ripley as nothing more than simply a trucker trying to survive. The second movie took her on a journey of facing her own fears and through the pain and suffering of motherhood.

Ok.....Now answer me this, What exactly is the movie saying about being a mother? The character of Ripley was never meant to be expanded, So of course everything quickly gets ridiculous and stupid. Good job, Them ovie does in fact have a theme, But I'm still saying it's untimately pointless and not essential to the plot, especially since newt dies in the beginning of Alien 3.

First movie provided one alien with no explanation of the species, second movie explained the species further equating them to Ants. First movie showed they had eggs, second movie showed where the eggs would come from. Second movie took what was set in the original and expanded upon it.

It worked much better the first ones way. Just by using mysterious hints at the Alien species worked wonders for suspense. Honostly, I doubt anyone watched the first one and just responded to it by saying "Wait, But where did those eggs come from? And what if a bunch of military people fought a bunch of Aliens?". Second one also removed the menace of the original. Where in the firsto ne it shows one Alien being nearly unstoppable, The second turns them into cannon fodder to shoot while throwing out cheesey lines.

General opinion likes both movies, and I am inclined to agree with that, thus I stated that the movie is as good as everyone says it is. If you have a problem with me agreeing with the general opinion, that's your deal.

I happen to think both movies are Classics.

Good for you.....I disagreed with the general opinion though. And simply reminding me it's the general opinion doesen't help anybody's arguemnt......ever. No, I don't have a problem with someone agreeing with the general opinion, But using it to back up the movie is a weak arguemnt.

[LordSimen]

Originally posted by Hominid
Ok.....Now answer me this, What exactly is the movie saying about being a mother? The character of Ripley was never meant to be expanded, So of course everything quickly gets ridiculous and stupid. Good job, Them ovie does in fact have a theme, But I'm still saying it's untimately pointless and not essential to the plot, especially since newt dies in the beginning of Alien 3.


Alien 3 isn't Aliens. Her dying in that has nothing to do with the events of Aliens and shouldn't be used to downplay the significance of the events in Aliens. What does the movie say about being a mother? I'm not sure, I'd have to watch it and analyse it thoroughly to figure out exactly what the movie was saying about motherhood, but honestly, I don't care what it says about motherhood. A movie can be about a subject without ultimately saying one way or another anything about it. A movie can be about fatherhood without taking a side of "Fathers are bad" or "fathers are good" or what the hell ever. It can rather be an exploration of the subject. Conclusions on motherhood don't need to be drawn in my personal opinion.

However if I were to quickly make a guess as to what Aliens says about motherhood, I'm sure it would be something along the lines of Motherhood being a hard and painful process and that Mothers care and love for their young more than anyone else, as the movie shows and dictates.

Originally posted by Hominid
It worked much better the first ones way. Just by using mysterious hints at the Alien species worked wonders for suspense. Honostly, I doubt anyone watched the first one and just responded to it by saying "Wait, But where did those eggs come from? And what if a bunch of military people fought a bunch of Aliens?". Second one also removed the menace of the original. Where in the firsto ne it shows one Alien being nearly unstoppable, The second turns them into cannon fodder to shoot while throwing out cheesey lines.


Theres quite a lot of suspense built up in Aliens via both mystery and vias practical devices (such as the clever use of the tracking device). However, suspense is not the name of the game for Aliens, while it does use it well. The first one was mainly focused on suspense because, well, it was a horror movie. The second one is an action movie.

The movie also adds more suspense by developing their characters way more than the first one did. This one had the liberty of being able to actually create characters we care about rather than 10 little indians with equal footing and no real development throughout the movie so as we can not figure out who will survive.

Aliens in Alien were just as menacing as they were in the original, and I can testify to that for when I was a kid I watched Alien and wasn't quite scared, however after seeing Aliens I would always look above me when walking through doors and check my closet to make sure nothing was going to jump out and attack me. The first one didn't scare me, the second one gave me nightmares.

The second one also threw more menace to the creatures by elevating their numbers. The more there are the scarier they become. Instead of becoming like a slasher movie villian in the first movie they become more like hoards of Zombies in a Romero movie. Both are considered scary, niether of which are frowned upon, why, when applied to aliens, is this considered a bad thing? I wonder...
Originally posted by Hominid
Good for you.....I disagreed with the general opinion though. And simply reminding me it's the general opinion doesen't help anybody's arguemnt......ever. No, I don't have a problem with someone agreeing with the general opinion, But using it to back up the movie is a weak arguemnt.

Did I say "You should agree with the general opinion?" No. I stated my opinion on the movie, you decided to start arguing it. That's your problem, not mine. I wasn't using it as a fact to support my theories, I was explaining my stance. It wasn't an argument. You made it into one.

[Le_Big_Mac]

Whether or not Aliens has any substance to it or sets new ground for what a sequel can be, it is a very entertaining action movie. Still, I prefer Alien by far.

[Mr.HyDe807]

I gotta disagree here, Alens is an amazing movie, just as good as Alien

[PsycoPat]

I'm wondering if Hominid has seen the Director's Cut which gave even more depth to the characters and plot...

Also if Hominid ever get's a chance to check out the special edition DVD and see all the making of featurettes he would've seen that Neither Cameron nor Weaver were hurting for money at the time...

Sigourney actually held out until she got the highest paycheck ever for a woman at the time...

And Cameron was no only doing just fine after Terminator but was married to Gayle Ann Hurd (The film's producer) between the two of them they were not starving!

Suffice to say that I disagree strongly with Hominid and instead of the "Rant section" this should've been posted in the "Hating on a great movie for no particular reason with assinine unfounded theories" section...

[Badbird]

Aliens is such a mind blowing movie it's almost astonishing to think something so good was made. All the hardware, the colonies, the marines, the Queen. Jesus Christ, there's more creativity in this movie's first reel than every Summer movie of this year combined.

Alien, on the other hand, is just a boring movie with nice sets. I'm getting sleepy just thinking about it.

[teenkiller]

Eh so Hominid hated Aliens... no big deal. I thought the movie was fantastic and the best in the series. The REAL dud was Alien 3. Man that movie made me hate 100 minutes of my life... Well thats all for now GOoD JOURNEY my fellow schmoes.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by Hominid
Ok.....Now answer me this, What exactly is the movie saying about being a mother? The character of Ripley was never meant to be expanded,

The movie's not so much about motherhood, but about Ripley and how she deals with finding out her daughter has died, which she learns when she returns to Earth. This added depth to the Ripley's character and to the movie itself. With Newt, she's able to use her motherhood instincts and help her adapt to the loss of her daughter.

So of course everything quickly gets ridiculous and stupid.

I'm not following you when you say things get ridiculous and stupid.

Them ovie does in fact have a theme, But I'm still saying it's untimately pointless and not essential to the plot, especially since newt dies in the beginning of Alien 3.

It's not the main theme of the movie, but a subplot, which gives the movie depth and character development - always useful in a movie as far as I'm concerned.

The subplot of Ripley being a mother is nowhere to be found in the third movie so it doesn't matter than Newt dies in the third.

[starcat]

i agree with teen killer, its cool if he dont like it...and i guess thats what the rant section is for. personally i think it is one of the greatest movies ever made, never really thought about the whole motherhood stuff, but its non stop action combining millitary, space ships, another planet, aliens... its the movie that started this whole trend of loving tough chicks in a movie, as i thought vasquez was totally bitching... also, im as bad as hominid cause i thought alien was one of the most boring movies ever... i guess cause i watched the fast paced aliens first...

[Alzabra]

Hominid, did u have a bad day at the office ???




Ur opinion is always welcome on movies but at least have facts to back this up. I have no argument at all when saying that Alien was a good movie but as several others have already said Aliens was a better movie

To try and crucify a film that was made so well made by Cameron with facts that make no sense is madness. I will be honest I had a laugh when the "hard up for cash" and "big dumb action movie” comments were made, This wasnt one of Arnolds films we are talking about( i love the big dumb action movies from arnold also though) from listening to your comments I can only assume that you are not a fan of action movies......fair enough but please talk sense when u are trying to pick holes out of a movie that as far as i was aware made more money that the original did( dont know exact figures but what im led to believe).


I do agree that "now" the franchise is being taken a little far with the likes of Alien V Predator which I thought was terrible. I dont claim to know as much about films or look into films as much as my fellow schmoes( although loved the breakdown of the characters Outsyder) with regards to the film being about motherhood etc but at the end of the day this is one bad ass action/horror movie and is nowere close to being a terrible film.

9/10 for me

p.s i didn’t think Alien 3 was all that bad........:D
:D

[vesaker]

Originally posted by Hominid
It's not all that great, In fact, it was nothing but a shitty attempt to make money of an old classic. Most involved needed money at the itme despite what they try to say (Weaver, Cameron). Sorry guys, But a realy well made big dumb action movie......is still jsut a big dumb action movie.

This coming form the guy who once posted that he owned the rights to his Avatar and that everyone who was using the same Avatar to chage it lol :p

[Hominid]

Originally posted by vesaker
This coming form the guy who once posted that he owned the rights to his Avatar and that everyone who was using the same Avatar to chage it lol :p

You know that was a joke...

[vesaker]

Originally posted by Hominid
You know that was a joke...

I know but it was a rediculous one lol

[zombievictim]

Since everyone defending Aliens has put up a good argument (you guys make me proud) I only have one thing to say: elarn ohw to splel!

:D

[jbar1026]

i like the way they made number 2 into an action movie. could you honestly sit and watch one alien kill the crew of a ship in four movies
.
aliens was the best of the quadriligy

alien 3 was the weakest but if you watch the ext cut it redems itself alittle

hopefully avp 2 will be a better movie. it could use some space marines

aliens is in no way a shitty movie and i know we all have opinions but you are wrong

[rilocay]

Ripley isn't just about mother-hood. She is a very strong women's "role-model" so to speak, she presents to us a strong willed and very capable woman, which back in the 80's when this movie was made, there wasn't a huge emphasis on in films, let alone the fact that in the real world women's rights were strongly beng protested for and whatnot. Her character, you could say, actually partly reflects the time's society.

If your wondering where im ripping that from, my class studied this movie under culture and society (well..i think, it was a few years ago so i forget). There's also alot that you could compare in the movie to America and watergate (think was watergate anyways) aswel as the huge surge in technology that was occuring at the time.

The movie says alot, sure you probably won't notice it at first, i don't doubt most people wont/never will, but it is there and if you look into it there's stuff to support it. Definatly a great movie and an important one aswel.

[bonoferox]

Reading this thread yesterday made me go back and watch the film again last night. I still love it more and more with every viewing. I have yet to find anything wrong with it.

Plus the fade cut at the beginning from Ripley's profile to the curve of the earth is amazingly well done.

[Scorpio24]

I would just like to say that the original poster was wrong. Wrong in the wrongest kind of way.