If you prefer dubbing to subtitles you are not a real movie fan

[someguy]

Dubbing vs subtitling should be put in the same camp as full screen vs widescreen. There's no excuse for it unless you're illiterate or blind (but then again, would the blind REALLY be movie fans anyways? Name me a blind movie critic). And I sure as shit know no blind or illiterate people are gonna come on here and tell me how wrong I am. They can't read this post and there ain't no fancy braille computers laying around. Hell, if there were blind people could never afford them! They can't even get a job! And you think disability will pay for that? The only possibility I can see is if a rich person went blind but those aren't REAL blind people anyways. I'm talking about the 'what's a colour?' blind people. How about you blind people wait around for James Cameron to waste another 30 years on some braille movie technology (you can LITERALLY feel the difference).

So basically my point is blind people shouldn't watch movies.

[LordSimen]

Wrong. There is nothing inherently wrong with dubbing nor are you less of a film/movie fan if you prefer it over subtitles.

[pablo_super1!]

Yea that really doesn't make you a less a film fan, it just makes you seem stupid.

Widescreen Vs Fullscreen, Widescreen will always win. Anyone who wants to watch films fullscreen isn't less a movie fan, but is stupid.

I personally just think its laziness. I hate when I start watching a foreign film with somebody and they say to change it because to quote people "If I wanted to read I'd get a book" I mean ahhhh!!! It's just so annoying.

So yeah they're just retarded.

[LordSimen]

I love the argument that preferring dubbing somehow makes you less intelligent and lazy. Because truly, watching a movie in subtitles is a lazy choice as well. And it's also not necessarily the intelligent choice.

The choice which would probably make you more intelligent and less lazy than either of the other options is the choice where you actually take the time to learn the language and then watch it in it's native tongue. Then you're not lazy, then you are more intelligent.

But subtitles and dubbing? Really, if you don't understand the language or the words being spoken, it doesn't really matter whether or not they are there in the first place.

[brodeurnumber1]

Wrong. There is nothing inherently wrong with dubbing nor are you less of a film/movie fan if you prefer it over subtitles.

Yes there is. Dubbing basically ruins the foreign actor's performance, and decreases the movie because of it.

[The Postmaster General]

Dubbing vs subtitling should be put in the same camp as full screen vs widescreen. There's no excuse for it unless you're illiterate or blind (but then again, would the blind REALLY be movie fans anyways? Name me a blind movie critic). And I sure as shit know no blind or illiterate people are gonna come on here and tell me how wrong I am. They can't read this post and there ain't no fancy braille computers laying around. Hell, if there were blind people could never afford them! They can't even get a job! And you think disability will pay for that? The only possibility I can see is if a rich person went blind but those aren't REAL blind people anyways. I'm talking about the 'what's a colour?' blind people. How about you blind people wait around for James Cameron to waste another 30 years on some braille movie technology (you can LITERALLY feel the difference).

So basically my point is blind people shouldn't watch movies.



Well, on computers they'd use text-to-speech software, and in movies they have those dubbed to include narration.

Probably the only people who genuinely shouldn't like subtitles, are the illiterate, dyslexic, hard of sight, or those who have difficultly reading in a second language. Dumbasses.

It's amazing how much movie-related shit you learn in human services. Now if we can just find a way to solve the starving children in Africa problem by tapping into those .49 cent McDonald's hamburgers!

[LordSimen]

Yes there is. Dubbing basically ruins the foreign actor's performance, and decreases the movie because of it.

If you can't understand what he's saying, you can't really tell if he's even performing it right in the first place. Even with subtitles. Either way you're relying solely on his face to get his performance and really, you can do that with dubbing or without it.

[brodeurnumber1]

If you can't understand what he's saying, you can't really tell if he's even performing it right in the first place. Even with subtitles. Either way you're relying solely on his face to get his performance and really, you can do that with dubbing or without it.

It's called voice inflection, and professional dubbers tend to be pretty lousy at imitating inflection. I actually watched 5 minutes of The Host dubbed and I wanted to bang my head against a wall because it sounded so terrible.

[outsyder]

Dubbing always makes you aware that you are in fact, watching a movie. Or at least that's how I feel about it. In order to keep the film a more invested experience, I'd prefer to keep the existing audio track with the diegetic dialogue intact, as I find otherwise the internal world of the film constantly being weighed down by the obvious production elements.

My only exception is animated films. I don't take much issue with watching an English dubbed version of an anime film for example, since the original voice acting is dubbing anyway.

[someguy]

I'm sure the low paid dubbing actress for Marillon Cotillard's role in La Vie En Rose was just as worthy of an Oscar as Cotillard herself.

[LordSimen]

It's called voice inflection, and professional dubbers tend to be pretty lousy at imitating inflection. I actually watched 5 minutes of The Host dubbed and I wanted to bang my head against a wall because it sounded so terrible.

You can't tell if voice inflection is well placed or well toned unless you know the language and the words being spoken. Otherwise they could be emphasizing wrong words or a number of other things. Honestly, I don't know how one can probably judge a person's performance unless you know their language.

[Badbird]

Meh. The first time I saw Hard Boiled and The Killer was on Cinemax and they were dubbed. So that's how I prefer to watch them, because that was my first experience with them.

Now, with Brotherhood of the Wolf, I saw it in theaters and it was subtitled, but the DVD has it dubbed by default. I checked it out and thought they did a pretty good job, aside from Manny's horrible, cliched Indian speak.

So, you know. Whatever.

[The Postmaster General]

That's the thing. You can have a movie that is poorly dubbed, or well dubbed. It also depends on the movie. A kungfu comedy probably will carry dubbing further than a romance story or a drama. I prefer subtitles. If there's no choice, no real movie fan would decide not to watch the movie.

[outsyder]

Dubbing is also often performed to try and match up mouth movements with lines, even in different languages, resulting in some rather comical deliveries that can absolutely ruin dramatic scenes, as there is little regard to the verbal flow of language.

[LordSimen]

Being forced to pay attention to the bottom of the screen in order to understand the plot can not only ruin your ability to remember which character is which, it can also take you completely out of the movie experience and ruin the enjoyment of the movie. It can make movie watching a chore.

I love both methods and really it just depends upon the dubb and the movie for me on which one I prefer, but to act as if liking Subtitles makes you a better person than Dubbing is just wrong.

[thedudeman69]

You can't tell if voice inflection is well placed or well toned unless you know the language and the words being spoken. Otherwise they could be emphasizing wrong words or a number of other things. Honestly, I don't know how one can probably judge a person's performance unless you know their language.

so, you're saying that people that speak the language well don't speak it well?

besides, dubbing sucks and diminishes what is the beauty of foreign language.

[LordSimen]

so, you're saying that people that speak the language well don't speak it well?

No. That's not what I'm saying.


besides, dubbing sucks and diminishes what is the beauty of foreign language.

Subtitles ruins the beauty of the picture and distracts from the frame itself. They both have pros and cons.

[echo_bravo]

Yes there is. Dubbing basically ruins the foreign actor's performance, and decreases the movie because of it.

This is mostly true. HOWEVER, in a film with little dialogue it really doesnt effect it....example: High Tension.

[Cop No. 633]

I prefer hearing it in the original language myself. I like taking in a culture that I'm not familiar with, especially with films. It lets you see a take on a similar story you may have seen done in English, but it has a fresh perspective on the plot because of the culture.

I'm a big fan of Wong Kar Wai's stuff and I would never even think to choose dubbing over the language because some of the actors are too good. Tony Leung is a badass actor. He's China's Humphrey Bogart. He has this great laid back laconic delivery. You don't even have to understand it, you could hear it just by how other people talk to him in the movies. That's just stuff you can pick up just by an actor's performance.

I think watching a film in another language can give a performance more power. Like Pan's Labyrinth. I'm sure for a lot of people, Sergi Lopez as the General seemed THAT much more evil because of the language difference and how detached he was, not just because of his lack of morality, but culturally as well. Or Lil Ze in City of God.

There's something beautiful to me about watching a film in a language I don't comprehend. I feel that taking in every foreign language film dubbed is the wrong way to go. It's a white washing of the culture the film is trying to present... there are words that could never be properly translated. There's a slang the characters use, that we might even be aware of, but it adds to the performance.... whereas, if you watch it dubbed, everything is grammatically perfect and it sounds fake because people don't speak to each other that way. Most dubbing is done with little care. Unless it's like Princess Mononoke which was an animated film so that is much easier to get away with, but they also had good actors to do the voices. Most actors who do dubbing just lack the flair of the original performance. The only dubbed masterpieces I can think of are Leone's Dollar Trilogy, but those were carefully done and he was master filmmaker overseeing the dubbing of his films.

What's also cool is that some filmmaker realize that the U.S. watch many films so they specifically shoot their films almost like silent films like Takeshi Kintano. Sonatine was as close to a modern silent film that we could get. It has very minimal dialogue, but mostly had the characters perform physically.

[brodeurnumber1]

Subtitles ruins the beauty of the picture and distracts from the frame itself. They both have pros and cons.

I managed to notice the beauty of Hero and was able to read the subtitles at the same time, it isn't exactly a hard thing to do.

[huBelial]

This thread is funny : )

[Cronos]

Dubbing just flat out sucks and I have yet to see a non animated movie dubbed even remotely well. It completely ruins the movie viewing experience.

[sirdizzy]

I have poor eyesight when it comes to reading subtitles and I may have to pause the film anywhere to a dozen times to read the subtitles. So yes I prefer dubbing whenever possible. That doesn't mean I won't watch a subtitled movie without dubbing if I don't have the option. I am fine if I watch the movie on my 50" tv in the living room or in the theatres or even on my laptop but if I watch the movie on my 29" bedroom tv its too hard for me to read.

So I guess I am not a movie fan thanks for letting me know, all these years wasted and you have finally enlighted me.

Also given the choice between dubbing and subtitles even if I am watching the movie on my big screen where i don't have to struggle to read the subtitles I will pick dubbing every freaking time. This allows me to focus on the action of the film and listen to the dilogue in my natives tongue.

Thanks to you letting me know I am not a film fan I got like 100 foreign films I need to give away, you can't have any fucker because you ruined my dream but if anyone else wants a copy of seven Samurai or Pan's Labyrinth let me know.

[Le_Big_Mac]

I don't see how anyone could consider dubbing a good choice. It ruins performances and almost always results in much worse performances, just because you're too lazy to read. And you have to be pretty unperceptive not to know a truly great performance in a foreign language when you see one.

[zombievictim]

Dubbing just flat out sucks and I have yet to see a non animated movie dubbed even remotely well. It completely ruins the movie viewing experience.

Was pretty much exactly what I was going to say. And that people who prefer dubbed movies over subbed movies are slow in the head.

[bigred760]

I hate a dubbed movie; I'm not a big fan of the Chinese/Japanese action flicks/martial arts flicks where the movie is so very obviously dubbed. Like BubbaStrangelove said, there are well-dubbed movies and poorly-dubbed ones. I think the first term is a bit of an oxymoron, but granted some are better than others - like most spaghetti westerns (at least the lips match for the most part).

But everytime great movies come on TV, they're dubbed: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Kung Fu Hustle, etc. I never watch them on TV like that. I stick with IFC when they air foreign flicks - they leave them subtitled . . . which, in my opinion, is much much better.

[someguy]

Being forced to pay attention to the bottom of the screen in order to understand the plot can not only ruin your ability to remember which character is which, it can also take you completely out of the movie experience and ruin the enjoyment of the movie. It can make movie watching a chore.

I love both methods and really it just depends upon the dubb and the movie for me on which one I prefer, but to act as if liking Subtitles makes you a better person than Dubbing is just wrong.

You must have never watched a film with subtitles or have ADHD.

Subtitles ruins the beauty of the picture and distracts from the frame itself. They both have pros and cons.

You're stretching here. You're realllyyyy stretching. I guess you must have been flabbergasted when La Vie En Rose won make-up at the Oscars. I mean the movie was only available subtitled and it managed to win a make-up award on an American award show! That's impossible, how can they vote for it when the whole time they were distracted by the bottom of the frame the whole time?! How have all of these foreign films won technical awards when all jury members were distracted from the beauty? I watched Sympathy for Lady Vengeance with subtitled, I had no opinion on how it looked until I accidentally turned the subtitles off and WOW IT LOOKED AMAZING!!! I never knew how much subtitles made me ignore what REALLY goes on.

The only real exception that can be made for dubbing on live-action movies is for stuff like Riki-Oh and other cheesy flicks but that covers an incredibly small amount of movies. I still prefer subtitling to dubbing, there's no way someone can argue that dubbing is better than subtitling all the time for everyone.

[LordSimen]

I'm not stretching at all. If I'm stretching, then so are all of you who are implying that dubbing somehow ruins performances. It doesn't, because a person cannot tell if a performance is even accurate or well placed unless they too can speak the language and confirm that everything sounds authentic. You can't tell if they are placing the right emphasis on the right words, you can't tell if they are overacting, you can't tell if they are even being accurate to the tone of the movie UNLESS you speak the language. So it doesn't even matter whether you watch the film in dubbing or subtitles, either way you're not getting the whole performance unless you understand them completely.

And you're completely missing my point. I'm explaining how subtitles has it's pros and cons much like dubbing. I'm not saying dubbing is better than subtitles, I'm saying niether makes someone less of a person for perfering them.

Subtitle's pros are that you get to hear the movie completely with the original audio intact, you get to hear it in it's native tongue and it's probably the closest to the original film the country it came from saw it.

It's con's are that it literally causes a complete distraction on the bottom of the screen that forces you to look down to understand the film instead of looking up at the performers and seeing their actual physical performance. For really complicated movies with a huge cast it can even make you confused as to who said what and who did what, and who characters are. I cannot count how many times I had to watch a foreign film subtitled multiple times just to understand it because the subtitles confused me so. It's not about being slow in the head, or being lazy. It's about having TWO conflicting visual stimulations that are both on the screen for a limited amount of time and having to juggle the amount of time you spend watching both. Sometimes you cannot even complete the sentence before the image and the subtitles change. This isn't a stretch, it's a reality that has occurred for me multiple times watching subtitled films. Some are easy to get through and I have no problem understanding, others can be downright confusing. For example, I still this day cannot watch Oldboy, one of my top 10 favorite films of all time, subtitled because I simply could not tell what was going on with all the voice over and dialogue overlapping and the constant jumping from place to place. I could only understand it when I turned on the dubbing and finally was able to fully see what was going on.

Dubbing has it's pros and cons too. It's pros are it doesn't cause any distractions on the screen and doesn't create two conflicting images with which you are forced to read whilst trying to watch. It makes the viewing experience easier and less of a chore, allowing your ears to hear and understand and your eyes to simply watch and take in the visual information. It's cons are basically it takes away the original voice audio that the movie was created in and is less like how the original audience saw the film.

However, the fact that it is less like how the original audience saw the film doesn't even matter unless you can clearly understand their language. If you cannot understand what words are being said, why does it matter if they are even there? You might as well take them out and put in dialogue that you can understand and enjoy the movie.

There's good dubbing and bad dubbing, like BubbaStrangelove said. Some movies don't sound good at all dubbed and have excellent subtitles. Other movies are completely confusing subtitled and have excellent dubs. Liking one or the other DOES NOT make you more lazy than those who like the other nor does it make you more stupid than them as well.

As I stated earlier, both options are actually the lazy options. They are both attempts at trying to make the movie experience easy to understand and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. The only option that isn't effectively lazy, because it actively asks of you to learn something and participate in the movie experience yourself, is the option where you get off your lazy ass and go learn the language in the first place. Unless you've taken the time to do that, to learn something knew which would put you a stoop above the rest in terms of knowledge, you have no right to call anyone lazy and/or stupid.

[someguy]

I'm not stretching at all. If I'm stretching, then so are all of you who are implying that dubbing somehow ruins performances. It doesn't, because a person cannot tell if a performance is even accurate or well placed unless they too can speak the language and confirm that everything sounds authentic. You can't tell if they are placing the right emphasis on the right words, you can't tell if they are overacting, you can't tell if they are even being accurate to the tone of the movie UNLESS you speak the language. So it doesn't even matter whether you watch the film in dubbing or subtitles, either way you're not getting the whole performance unless you understand them completely.

Once again, were you confused when Marillon Cotillard won the Oscar? It's an American award yet they gave it to a French actress. How could they tell she was excellent because according to you only people who speak French can.

And you're completely missing my point. I'm explaining how subtitles has it's pros and cons much like dubbing. I'm not saying dubbing is better than subtitles, I'm saying niether makes someone less of a person for perfering them.

Yeah, the sky is blue and people breath oxygen. Wow, thanks for clarifying me on the fact that things have pros and cons. Like I didn't know this? Subtitling is naturally better than dubbing, like full screen is naturally better than widescreen because it's the closest thing to properly understanding a foreign film besides actually understanding the language. And preferring dub to sub doesn't mean you're less of a person. It just means that you aren't a real fan of films. Just like if you prefer full screen to wide screen because 'you don't like the bars' (the only excuse for a person who hates it) you aren't a real movie fan.

It's con's are that it literally causes a complete distraction on the bottom of the screen that forces you to look down to understand the film instead of looking up at the performers and seeing their actual physical performance. For really complicated movies with a huge cast it can even make you confused as to who said what and who did what, and who characters are. I cannot count how many times I had to watch a foreign film subtitled multiple times just to understand it because the subtitles confused me so. It's not about being slow in the head, or being lazy. It's about having TWO conflicting visual stimulations that are both on the screen for a limited amount of time and having to juggle the amount of time you spend watching both. Sometimes you cannot even complete the sentence before the image and the subtitles change. This isn't a stretch, it's a reality that has occurred for me multiple times watching subtitled films. Some are easy to get through and I have no problem understanding, others can be downright confusing. For example, I still this day cannot watch Oldboy, one of my top 10 favorite films of all time, subtitled because I simply could not tell what was going on with all the voice over and dialogue overlapping and the constant jumping from place to place. I could only understand it when I turned on the dubbing and finally was able to fully see what was going on.

I watched Oldboy with subtitles and understood it perfectly. I can't stand watching it dubbed because it's too cheesy and ruins Choi Min-Sik's performance which is fucking excellent (but according to you I have no idea what I'm talking about, all that sympathy for his character must have been manufactured in my head and didn't come across from his performance). I've never been distracted by a movie because of subtitles. They appear 2 or 3 lines at a time which doesn't take forever to read. I can easily understand what is going on with the screen. In fact, I think that subtitles actually make people pay more attention to the screen than dubbing because you have to actually look at the screen in order to understand what is being said. I've never been confused from watching a movie subtitled either. Maybe you have a hard time paying attention to the screen with subtitles but I've never been distracted from a movie while subtitles are on.

The only real argument someone can make about subtitles being bad is just 'i don't wanna read' which is nothing but pure laziness. Trying to seriously pull out the 'subtitles are lazy because you won't learn the language' argument is ridiculous. When you pull out that card you're essentially telling me to go learn hundreds of different languages so I can properly understand the film. So basically let me sum up. Subtitling and dubbing both have pros and cons, but subtitling is still 99.9% of the time better than dubbing because it is the closest thing to fully understanding a foreign film besides understanding the language. If given the option of watching a film subtitled or dubbed and you always choose dubbing, you are not a real movie fan because you are preferring an improper version of the original intended version of the director's 'vision.' Just like preferring full screen to wide screen does not make a person a real movie fan because they are missing out on the full 'vision' of the director.

[Digifruitella]

i'll take professional synchronized translation over dubbing and subs any day. Oh wait, you westerners dont have that shit.

[LordSimen]

Once again, were you confused when Marillon Cotillard won the Oscar? It's an American award yet they gave it to a French actress. How could they tell she was excellent because according to you only people who speak French can.

I don't even know what the fuck you are talking about? Who gave what to who? I don't pay attention to these things so I really don't give a shit who gave an award to who. Unless they understood the language, which I'm actually sure those who gave the award did, they have no place to give the award to someone for their performance.


Yeah, the sky is blue and people breath oxygen. Wow, thanks for clarifying me on the fact that things have pros and cons. Like I didn't know this? Subtitling is naturally better than dubbing, like full screen is naturally better than widescreen because it's the closest thing to properly understanding a foreign film besides actually understanding the language. And preferring dub to sub doesn't mean you're less of a person. It just means that you aren't a real fan of films. Just like if you prefer full screen to wide screen because 'you don't like the bars' (the only excuse for a person who hates it) you aren't a real movie fan.

It's the closest thing to properly understanding a foreign film? Really? The closest way to properly understanding a foreign film is placing an audio on it that you CANNOT UNDERSTAND? That's PROPERLY understanding a foreign film? That's bullshit. If there's something there that you inherently can't understand, you aren't properly understanding the film in it's entirety. With the dubbing, there is no confusion. It's clearly there. Subtitles force you to look at the bottom of the screen instead of the actor's face.

Your logic between the full screen and wide screen doesn't equate. Because subtitles are closer to that argument than dubbing, because Subtitles LITERALLY place things that weren't on the frame in the first place ONTO the bottom of the frame. They are LITERALLY compromising the visual sense of the film. Much like cutting of the sides of the frame does when you watch a film in full screen. With dubbing, the frame is intact. There are no distraction for your eyes and you can simply take in the entire film without having to look anywhere but at the movie itself.

No. The only time you AREN'T a real film fan is when you DON'T LIKE FILM. Saying that you aren't a real film fan unless they properly fall under your bullshit criteria makes you an elitist. And if you're going to be an elitist, and use elitist arguments, don't come complaining to me when someone comes at you with an even more elitist argument. Such as actually learning the language before watching it so you can watch the movie in it's complete and proper entirety.


I watched Oldboy with subtitles and understood it perfectly. I can't stand watching it dubbed because it's too cheesy and ruins Choi Min-Sik's performance which is fucking excellent (but according to you I have no idea what I'm talking about, all that sympathy for his character must have been manufactured in my head and didn't come across from his performance). I've never been distracted by a movie because of subtitles. They appear 2 or 3 lines at a time which doesn't take forever to read. I can easily understand what is going on with the screen. In fact, I think that subtitles actually make people pay more attention to the screen than dubbing because you have to actually look at the screen in order to understand what is being said. I've never been confused from watching a movie subtitled either. Maybe you have a hard time paying attention to the screen with subtitles but I've never been distracted from a movie while subtitles are on.


Not everyone has an easy time reading and watching at the same time. It's like trying to watch a movie whilst blasting music- When you have two stimulations of the same sense it can overrun and confuse some people. It does to me a lot, and some other people have the same problem too. Two visual things you have to pay attention to can overrun and confuse some people. Just because you have the magic ability to run two sides of the same sense at the same time doesn't mean everybody does.

I watch Oldboy dubbed and I have sympathy for the characters there more than I do for the subbed because the subbed outright confused me. And when a movie literally confuses my senses and my ability to comprehend it, I have no desire to finish watching it. But despite that, I watched it three times because I wanted to understand it and I was about to give up on it until I popped in the dub. Once I put the dub in, everything was clear. There was no confusion, and I was able to pay attention to the film completely unlike with the subtitles. Now it's one of my favorite films ever, and watching it dubbed doesn't mean I'm less of a film fan for it.


The only real argument someone can make about subtitles being bad is just 'i don't wanna read' which is nothing but pure laziness. Trying to seriously pull out the 'subtitles are lazy because you won't learn the language' argument is ridiculous. When you pull out that card you're essentially telling me to go learn hundreds of different languages so I can properly understand the film. So basically let me sum up. Subtitling and dubbing both have pros and cons, but subtitling is still 99.9% of the time better than dubbing because it is the closest thing to fully understanding a foreign film besides understanding the language. If given the option of watching a film subtitled or dubbed and you always choose dubbing, you are not a real movie fan because you are preferring an improper version of the original intended version of the director's 'vision.' Just like preferring full screen to wide screen does not make a person a real movie fan because they are missing out on the full 'vision' of the director.

That's not the only argument. That's the only argument YOU can come up with, not the only argument for people who really can't stand subtitles. Some people have trouble reading inherently and are dyslexic, some people have bad eye sight, some people have trouble paying attention to variations on the same sense at the same time.

I'm sure the director's proper vision of the film did not include words on the bottom of the screen that weren't there before. I'm sure the director's proper vision of the film is that the audience watching it would be able to watch it with pure ease and not sit there scratching there heads wondering which character said what, who is who and why something is happening. Some directors may have had that vision, but not all. And for some, the clarity comes with being able to listen and watch and not being forced to just watch.

[zombievictim]

Don't you love when a fight has already been won and yet it still continues due to the usual male thing of "I can't be wrong, I'm always right These testicles here make my opinion 100% correct. You can't be a little right. FUCK THAT"?

[brodeurnumber1]

Don't you love when a fight has already been won and yet it still continues due to the usual male thing of "I can't be wrong, I'm always right These testicles here make my opinion 100% correct. You can't be a little right. FUCK THAT"?

Those make up half of LS's posts, so one has to do what one has to do.

[zombievictim]

Those make up half of LS's posts, so one has to do what one has to do.

Haha yes. I know that quite well. As do many.

[Weapon X]

Here's my take (because no one asked):

I have no problems with dubbing in the event I don't have a choice but to view it that way. And even in some cases when I do have a choice, I'd have to say it depends on the film.

Live-action = subtitles. Unless the subtitles are running by so fast that they've moved on to a new line before I've even finished reading the last one (I'm lookin' at you, District B13!).

Anime = dubbing. Especially in cases like Cowboy Bebop or Black Lagoon where the track (cast, dialogue, etc.) is above average as dubs go, and perhaps BETTER than the original language track. My exception to that rule would probably be Persepolis, which I first saw in French and will likely continue watching in French once it's on DVD.

It's a matter of taste, it's a matter of circumstance. And I don't think it makes anyone any less of a film fan for any reason.

But just for shits and giggles, let's look at a double-edged sword like, say, The Good The Bad & The Ugly; a masterpiece of filmmaking any way you slice it. Its original language, lo and behold, is Italian, yet features three American actors in the lead roles. By watching the film in Italian, you're clearly losing part of Clint Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef, and Eli Wallach's performances; conversely, watching it in English takes something away from all the other cast members, most to all of whom were not speaking English. So how do you judge that one?

[adamjohnson]

Just dont watch the dubbed version of The Host. Not only are you replacing the actors performaance, but the dialogue itself is DIFFERENT than the subtitles, in the hope of matching the actor's mouth movements.

Fucked up shit.

[athf1980]

there is nothing wrong with dubbing if it's done right.

dubbing of the host & hard boiled sucked so I just read the subtitles

dubbing of Princess Monokoo & Spritied away were done right.

[JohnLocke2342]

i watched oldboy dubbed the second time, and it was actually one of the better ones I've seen.

[The Postmaster General]

i'll take professional synchronized translation over dubbing and subs any day. Oh wait, you westerners dont have that shit.


I pointed at that in an earlier post, but behold, with exceptions, it's apparently one or the other and someone is either right or wrong.

Suddenly, after all these years, we have been wrong for watching Bruce Lee movies and not looking for the same things we'd find in a Lawrence Olivier movies.




Anime = dubbing. Especially in cases like Cowboy Bebop or Black Lagoon where the track (cast, dialogue, etc.) is above average as dubs go, and perhaps BETTER than the original language track. My exception to that rule would probably be Persepolis, which I first saw in French and will likely continue watching in French once it's on DVD.

But just for shits and giggles, let's look at a double-edged sword like, say, The Good The Bad & The Ugly; a masterpiece of filmmaking any way you slice it. Its original language, lo and behold, is Italian, yet features three American actors in the lead roles. By watching the film in Italian, you're clearly losing part of Clint Eastwood, Lee Van Cleef, and Eli Wallach's performances; conversely, watching it in English takes something away from all the other cast members, most to all of whom were not speaking English. So how do you judge that one?

I was thinking of these examples.








I only think someguy is right if the person who likes dubbing doesn't wear glasses, a turtleneck and also doesn't drink coffee. Still though, if someone wears glasses, a turtleneck, drinks coffee, and only watches films in subtitles, then they are probably like the most respected person you should talk to about film. UNLESS, and this is very important, unless they either drive an SUV or a car that's over 10 years old - the only exception is unless they are uneducated, grew up impoverished and now want to flaunt their amassed wealth - in that case, it would be disingenuous to imply that they are making poor choices, unless of course they implicitly state so and you either have a firm grasp on their dialect, or if when they talk, they wear a gold chain with an LCD screen with rolling subtitles.

[Badbird]

It's weird that Crouching Tiger was dubbed later. I mean, the thing made over $100 million as a subtitled movie in theaters. Bizarre.

[Cop No. 633]

I'm not stretching at all. If I'm stretching, then so are all of you who are implying that dubbing somehow ruins performances. It doesn't, because a person cannot tell if a performance is even accurate or well placed unless they too can speak the language and confirm that everything sounds authentic. You can't tell if they are placing the right emphasis on the right words, you can't tell if they are overacting, you can't tell if they are even being accurate to the tone of the movie UNLESS you speak the language. So it doesn't even matter whether you watch the film in dubbing or subtitles, either way you're not getting the whole performance unless you understand them completely.

Wow, and you want to be a director? Acting is about the emotions that get across on the screen. It's not about knowing the right number of syllables. If an actor speaks in their language, no matter which it is, the result will always be better than dubbed. Take for instance, Jet Li. I've seen his films over the years and it's easy to see how he's grown as an actor. Try comparing his performances in Fist of Legend to Fearless and you will see how much he's matured and is able to tap into his emotions much more fluidly than before when he was just an martial arts performer. He's become an actor, and it took him time.

It's not hard to know a good performance regardless of the language. I can watch a cheesy film in Chinese like Black Mask and know it's not in the same league as Chungking Express. Does that mean I'm an expert on the language? No. I can just tell by the emotions portrayed by the actors. I think you're placing too much importance on the comprehension of the words rather than the emotions the actors are trying to get across.

[LordSimen]

Wow, and you want to be a director? Acting is about the emotions that get across on the screen. It's not about knowing the right number of syllables. If an actor speaks in their language, no matter which it is, the result will always be better than dubbed. Take for instance, Jet Li. I've seen his films over the years and it's easy to see how he's grown as an actor. Try comparing his performances in Fist of Legend to Fearless and you will see how much he's matured and is able to tap into his emotions much more fluidly than before when he was just an martial arts performer. He's become an actor, and it took him time.

It's not hard to know a good performance regardless of the language. I can watch a cheesy film in Chinese like Black Mask and know it's not in the same league as Chungking Express. Does that mean I'm an expert on the language? No. I can just tell by the emotions portrayed by the actors. I think you're placing too much importance on the comprehension of the words rather than the emotions the actors are trying to get across.


And if you can't speak the language you simply cannot tell if they are expressing the emotion accurately or simply over acting to the situation. It's nearly impossible to tell if an actor's performance is even remotely accurate unless you can understand every single asset of their performance.

[BanksIsDaFuture]

Most of you guys are just fuckin' idiots.

[Homyrrh]

I watch every DVD at home with subtitles, regardless of language, and 85% of that which I watch is English. This is primarily because I watch fairly late at night when I'm the only one awake and thus can turn the volume down slightly so I can still hear the effects and most of the dialogue but don't risk missing any of the dialogue.

Of course, the subtitles are always displayed prior to the character actually finishing the though so it sometiems becomes tedious.

[countchocula]

And if you can't speak the language you simply cannot tell if they are expressing the emotion accurately or simply over acting to the situation. It's nearly impossible to tell if an actor's performance is even remotely accurate unless you can understand every single asset of their performance.

You don't have to be fluent in a certain language to infer that a performance is too hammy or too stoic or too animated or too whatever. It's not rocket science. It's just a case of simple perception. You won't find a professional film critic who agrees with you, unless they have poor vision. It takes one second to read a line of dialogue. It's not a distraction. If subtitles "confuse" you, then your brain does not process information properly. That's a fact.

[LordSimen]

You don't have to be fluent in a certain language to infer that a performance is too hammy or too stoic or too animated or too whatever. It's not rocket science. It's just a case of simple perception. You won't find a professional film critic who agrees with you, unless they have poor vision. It takes one second to read a line of dialogue. It's not a distraction. If subtitles "confuse" you, then your brain does not process information properly. That's a fact.

Yes, you do have to be fluent in the language to infer whether or not the performance is good or not. Emotion does not alone warrent a performance. You can have a girl crying when she's supposed to cry but her line readings sound like someone who just memorized them the night before. Being not fluent in the language, you'd have no idea what sounds natural in that tongue and what doesn't. You may be able to tell if the actress is putting the right emotion into the scene but you won't be able to tell if she is completely acting properly for the scene.

And no, that is not a fact. Because there is no definitive definition of "what brain process" is proper. Some people think one way, some people think another. Some people's brains process faster than others and some brains process slower. Some brains are able to process multiple points of information at once and others get flustered.

Deciding that you are somehow better than the rest of the world SIMPLY because of the fact that you like subtitles is wrong. You aren't smarter, you aren't less lazy, your brain doesn't process information any more proper than anyone else. It just means you like subtitles. THAT is a FACT.

[mutesaint]

I don't think you need to be fluent in the language to understand a performance. Tone and body language both play heavy in a preformance. No matter what language someone speaks you can hear the tone. You can read to emotion in it. We are all still human. While I'm not going to agree that someone who likes dubbing isn't a true fan, I will agree that it damages/ruins the vocal preformance. Shit, just go watch a movie, a good movie, with subs then with dubs. Like Oldboy. Go watch Oldboy and tell me that that dub isn't utter shit. That it doesn't take a dead serious scene and make it out and out hilariously shitty. It does this because the intonations and rythms of the original dialogue are essential to the emotion of the scene. I can't speak Korean, but I know a good preformance when I hear one.

[Cop No. 633]

You don't have to be fluent in a certain language to infer that a performance is too hammy or too stoic or too animated or too whatever. It's not rocket science. It's just a case of simple perception. You won't find a professional film critic who agrees with you, unless they have poor vision. It takes one second to read a line of dialogue. It's not a distraction. If subtitles "confuse" you, then your brain does not process information properly. That's a fact.

Nice point Dr. Count. I guess NOBODY knows what they're talking about when they review a foreign film unless they see it dubbed. Simen perceives his view as absolute truth so he can't comprehend how anybody could gauge a good performance in another language if HE can't. It's that simple really.

Also, it helps to know understand a second language, or to know body language as well or to read a person's facial expressions rather than just the words. You can tell a person is crying, whispering, speaking normally or yelling regardless of the language.

[LordSimen]

I don't think you need to be fluent in the language to understand a performance. Tone and body language both play heavy in a preformance. No matter what language someone speaks you can hear the tone. You can read to emotion in it. We are all still human. While I'm not going to agree that someone who likes dubbing isn't a true fan, I will agree that it damages/ruins the vocal preformance. Shit, just go watch a movie, a good movie, with subs then with dubs. Like Oldboy. Go watch Oldboy and tell me that that dub isn't utter shit. That it doesn't take a dead serious scene and make it out and out hilariously shitty. It does this because the intonations and rythms of the original dialogue are essential to the emotion of the scene. I can't speak Korean, but I know a good preformance when I hear one.

Sorry, but if you don't know the language you are simply getting the surface and nothing more from the performance. You don't know the subtleties of the language and whether or not they are actually reading their lines badly. They can cry all they want but you would have no clue unless you know the language. The tone doesn't add much to telling the performance if you can't tell what they're saying. All you're left with is body language, which you can get from both dubbing and subbing.

Oldboy dubbed is superior to it's subtitled. I watched it three times subtitled and was still confused by the time I was done as to what the hell had happened. It wasn't until I turned on the dubbing, and watched it, that I understood the plot through and through. The performances in Oldboy were the same whether or not I watched it dubbed or subbed, it really didn't make much of a difference..

Subtitles can lead to confusion as to who is saying what, who is who, and what the hell is going on. Especially when you're forced of focus at the bottom of the screen and not at the person above it speaking. When watching a movie, you should be focused on the actors and the frame, not the annoying words added at the bottom that you have no choice but to read unless you want to be even more lost.

Dubbing make take away from the actor's actual dialogue, but unless you can understand what they're saying, it really doesn't matter if it's there or not. At least it's not compromising the frame, or causing you to look down when you should be looking up.

[someguy]

You see I already proved this 'you can't tell a good foreign performance unless you speak the language' argument wrong by showing that a French speaking performance won an award that was voted by a group of people who don't speak French and he just replied with 'i don't get it.'

[LordSimen]

You see I already proved this 'you can't tell a good foreign performance unless you speak the language' argument wrong by showing that a French speaking performance won an award that was voted by a group of people who don't speak French and he just replied with 'i don't get it.'

Their award is invalid unless they speak the language. You can't properly judge a performance based on body language alone. You can only judge tone if you know what they're saying and whether or not the tone is well placed.

I've already proved every single one of your points wrong, but you still claim superiority and belittle those who don't think the way you do. You should learn you aren't better than everyone, stop pretending to be.

[someguy]

You only proved my points wrong according to you. You're essentially making up the rules as you go along. You say you can't tell if a performance is good or bad unless you speak the language. I point you to Marillon Cotillard winning the Oscar for a French film even though it's an American award show. You just say the award is invalid because it doesn't conform to your belief system. Keep dancing around and finding excuses to 'prove' you're right, I'll just sit here and enjoy the show.

[LordSimen]

You only proved my points wrong according to you. You're essentially making up the rules as you go along. You say you can't tell if a performance is good or bad unless you speak the language. I point you to Marillon Cotillard winning the Oscar for a French film even though it's an American award show. You just say the award is invalid because it doesn't conform to your belief system. Keep dancing around and finding excuses to 'prove' you're right, I'll just sit here and enjoy the show.

It isn't any different than your beliefs. "I'M BETTER THAN YOU BECAUSE I SAY SO." Yeah. Nice try. Come back when you stop looking at yourself in the mirror thinking how much better you are than than the rest of us.

[Cop No. 633]

Simen, SomeGuy isn't saying he's BETTER than you. He's simply pointing out the fact that you have yet again taken your point of view as absolute truth and hold everybody else to be "lying" or "wrong" when they say they can guage a good performance. Just because you can't notice a good performance in another language, doesn't mean other people can't.

Stop trying to push your point of view as the absolute truth of every human.

I understand Spanish, so by your standards, I can tell when a performance in Spanish is good or not. But am I going to tell somebody who doesn't understand the language they're wrong if they say a performance was good simply because they don't speak it? That would be incredibly presumptuous of me and arrogant to think that way.

[LordSimen]

Simen, SomeGuy isn't saying he's BETTER than you.

Oh really? Let's look at his argument:

"If you prefer dubbing to subtitles, you are not a real movie fan."

What do we know about Someguy from this argument? Well, he's mentioned he likes subtitles and doesn't like dubbing. He's mentioned in his argument that if you like subtitles, you are a real movie fan. If you don't, you aren't.

How is his argument NOT implying he's better than everyone, again? He's implying with his entire argument that SIMPLY BECAUSE HE PREFERS SUBTITLES, HE IS SOMEHOW BETTER THAN ANYONE WHO PREFERS DUBBING. HE IS SOMEHOW A REAL MOVIE FAN, AND THEY AREN'T. THAT'S SAYING HE'S BETTER THAN PEOPLE.

This also implies that anytime I prefer a dubbed film to as subtitled film, Someguy is saying he's better than ME. If it wasn't his intention to imply superiority, he shouldn't have made is COMPLETELY condescending argument.

He's simply pointing out the fact that you have yet again taken your point of view as absolute truth and hold everybody else to be "lying" or "wrong" when they say they can guage a good performance. Just because you can't notice a good performance in another language, doesn't mean other people can't.

HE has taken his point of view as absolute truth and holds everyone else to be lying or wrong as well. Just because HE is arrogant enough to assume he can judge a performance without knowing the FULL performance (what she's saying in her language), doesn't mean it's right.


Stop trying to push your point of view as the absolute truth of every human.


You first.


I understand Spanish, so by your standards, I can tell when a performance in Spanish is good or not. But am I going to tell somebody who doesn't understand the language they're wrong if they say a performance was good simply because they don't speak it? That would be incredibly presumptuous of me and arrogant to think that way.

If you are judging a performance without understanding the language, YOU DO NOT understand the full performance. Therefore your judging is incomplete. You wouldn't judge a song without understanding the lyrics, if you did you wouldn't have the complete picture of the song. You wouldn't judge a book by skipping whole chapters. You wouldn't judge a movie having only seen half of it. You shouldn't judge something with an incomplete view of it. It makes your judgement incomplete as well. You CAN judge what you do have a view of. Her body language was good, her emotion was good, but you can't judge her whole performance having an incomplete view of it.

[Cop No. 633]

Well, I thought the title was a joke. But I do think dubbed films pail in comparison to the original language as I've already explained.

As for this whole, "You don't understand!" That's why there's a thing called subtitles. It might make you miss a few visuals, but hey, that's why there's DVD so you can watch a film over and over to get what you missed.

By your standards, you can't even judge a foreign film at all because even in a dubbed version, the acting is usually worse than hearing the original actors. So you aren't really "judging" any actor's performance by watching it dubbed, therefore, you can't judge the film because that's what all film is about: performance. So we might as well stop watching films in a foreign language because we don't "get it."

Your logic has holes in it. If I went by it, I would have loved My Blueberry Nights over Wong Kar Wai's other films which I prefer... and guess what, the films are in Chinese! But it doesn't matter, since I can't judge a foreign film because I don't "understand" them.

[LordSimen]

Well, I thought the title was a joke. But I do think dubbed films pail in comparison to the original language as I've already explained.

He never indicated it was a joke. Joke or not, it wasn't fucking funny. And you can think that. But if you think for one minute that your personal preference makes you better than anyone- You are wrong.


As for this whole, "You don't understand!" That's why there's a thing called subtitles. It might make you miss a few visuals, but hey, that's why there's DVD so you can watch a film over and over to get what you missed.


That's also why there's dubbing. So you understand. Visuals to me are more important than the actors performance because I can't understand them anyway. I don't want to watch a film over and over again to understand. The only time I want to watch it over and over again is if I loved it. Film watching shouldn't be a chore, it should be something that comes easy. Both Subtitles and Dubbing are there to make it easy. Whichever one is easier for you is the way to go. Pretending you're better than someone because you prefer one is wrong. Pretending your brain somehow is better than those who prefer the opposite choice is wrong. Pretending you are less lazy and more intelligent than those who prefer the opposite choice is wrong.



By your standards, you can't even judge a foreign film at all because even in a dubbed version, the acting is usually worse than hearing the original actors. So you aren't really "judging" any actor's performance by watching it dubbed, therefore, you can't judge the film because that's what all film is about: performance. So we might as well stop watching films in a foreign language because we don't "get it."


Theater is all about performance. Film is more than just performance. It's a large number of things. Including framing and composition, which is ruined and taken away by subtitles. Either way, you are taking something away from the movie when you chose watching it dubbed or subbed. It's just your choice which is more important to you. BUT THAT CHOICE, DOES NOT MAKE YOU BETTER THAN ANY ONE. PERIOD.

Using your own logic, however, if you can judge an actor's performance without understanding them, then so too can you judge an actor's performance without hearing them. If you can judge an actor's performance without one of the things that go into their performance, then you should be able to when you take away other things. Making Subbed no better than Dubbed.

[Cop No. 633]

Well, this is where I leave off. If film is merely a slave to visuals as opposed to good performances as well as good visuals, I'd be in heaven right now with the slew of visually pleasing films that have the most devoid performances given by terrible actors like Megan Fox, Shia Leboeuf, Jessica Alba, Paul Walker, Orlando Bloom... and the list goes on.

I don't think every film should be easy. Some films should be made for pure entertainment like Big Trouble in Little China, but some films are meant to be puzzles like Memento where you do have to see a second time to really digest it. Not every film should be the same and "easy" to get in one sitting.

Maybe that's where you an I differ.

Your last point holds no ground even in your own logic because at least with the original sound, you're hearing the ACTOR's voice and not a second rate hack whose life is just dubbing films. That is the true difference. Most of the time, dubbing isn't even done by the filmmakers themselves and it's given to a company for the international distribution. So you are REMOVING part of the performance by not using the same actor. And like I said before, some films like the Dollar trilogy get away with it because Leone overlooked the process and even got the original actors to dub their own voices. Not all of them, but even still, he put care into the work unlike most films.

As for the act of reading subtitles, it is an act of intelligence. Reading and comprehension do require you to use your brain. Hell, you get graded for it most of your life, so just because it's done in a film, doesn't make it off limits from intelligence. I'm not saying it makes anybody better than anyone, but it does require a function of the brain. Hell, you know how many people I've heard say they don't subtitles simply because they don't like to read? Again, I'm not saying its you, I'm speaking about people I've met talking about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Pan's Labyrinth. I do think it does bug people... not that it's distracting for some, but that they simply don't like to read.

[LordSimen]

Well, this is where I leave off. If film is merely a slave to visuals as opposed to good performances as well as good visuals, I'd be in heaven right now with the slew of visually pleasing films that have the most devoid performances given by terrible actors like Megan Fox, Shia Leboeuf, Jessica Alba, Paul Walker, Orlando Bloom... and the list goes on.

Since when where Orlando Bloom and Shia Lebouf terrible actors? Surely in no film I've seen with them.


I don't think every film should be easy. Some films should be made for pure entertainment like Big Trouble in Little China, but some films are meant to be puzzles like Memento where you do have to see a second time to really digest it. Not every film should be the same and "easy" to get in one sitting.


You're talking about something completely different from dubbing and subbing. Subtitles and Dubbing are there to make the viewing experience easy for those who don't understand the language. Subtitles are put at the bottom of the screen to be easy to ready so you understand the basic idea of the dialogue, and dubbing is also there so you can understand the basic idea of the dialogue. Their job isn't there to make the movie experience more or less confusing than the movie already is. Saying that their job is to make the movie going experience easy is not the same as saying every movie should be straight forward. A confusing movie watched in subtitles can become more confusing if subtitles are pron to confusing you. Therefore you'd probably understand the movie better if you watched it dubbed. There is nothing wrong with that, and people pretending they're better than that person for that reason are wrong.


Your last point holds no ground even in your own logic because at least with the original sound, you're hearing the ACTOR's voice and not a second rate hack whose life is just dubbing films. That is the true difference. Most of the time, dubbing isn't even done by the filmmakers themselves and it's given to a company for the international distribution. So you are REMOVING part of the performance by not using the same actor. And like I said before, some films like the Dollar trilogy get away with it because Leone overlooked the process and even got the original actors to dub their own voices. Not all of them, but even still, he put care into the work unlike most films.


My point was using your logic, my friend. You used mine earlier so I used yours. Don't tell me it holds no ground in my logic unless you wish for me to say the same to you. You may be removing part of the performance by putting a dubbed actor's performance over it, but that's no different than REMOVING part of the frame by placing text over it that you have no choice but to read in order to understand the story- Thereby distracting you from the rest of the film.


As for the act of reading subtitles, it is an act of intelligence. Reading and comprehension do require you to use your brain. Hell, you get graded for it most of your life, so just because it's done in a film, doesn't make it off limits from intelligence. I'm not saying it makes anybody better than anyone, but it does require a function of the brain. Hell, you know how many people I've heard say they don't subtitles simply because they don't like to read? Again, I'm not saying its you, I'm speaking about people I've met talking about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Pan's Labyrinth. I do think it does bug people... not that it's distracting for some, but that they simply don't like to read.

Someone can read lots of books, comprehend them and be very literate when it comes to the written word and still find themselves flustered when presented with a situation where they not only have to read something, but they have to read it fast WHILST trying to pay attention to visuals because without one or the other, your comprehension of the story will be flawed. Some people can get flustered when forced to multitask like this, and that doesn't reflect their intelligence. It just means they aren't good at reading and watching at the same time.

To bring another example in: Some people can't watch shakey-cam movies because they get confused as to what's going on. Some people watched Transformers and couldn't tell who was what, what was what, and whether or not what they were seeing was a fist or leg. Others had no problem understanding exactly what was going on. The difference between the two was simply one was able to comprehend the confusion of being visually assaulted while the other got flustered. Is one more intelligent than the other? No. Is one lazier than the other? No. Neither is better than the other.

[zombievictim]

This is getting out of hand. Do everyone here a favor and switch it up a bit by admitting to something after all the evidence points to one thing. Of the twenty arguments you get in on these boards a month, how many do you ever admit you're wrong? I've yet to see any even when people are able to legitimately back up their case whilst you just spew a bunch of "No you're wrong because I said so" bullshit. Don't try to push your opinion upon everybody because there's a difference between a strong, supported opinion and a weak, one sided opinion. It's not like these people here aren't willing to listen to your argument, but when they're able to prove you wrong each time, all you do by just saying "no you're wrong and here's me saying the opposite of everything you say" is to stir the pot and prove to everyone else that you are one sided. These occurrences are getting out of control.

[LordSimen]

This is getting out of hand. Do everyone here a favor and switch it up a bit by admitting to something after all the evidence points to one thing.

I admit I'm wrong all the time. When's the last time THEY'VE ever admitted they're wrong? Never. Don't sit there and patronize me for something you and they are very much so guilty of as well.

Of the twenty arguments you get in on these boards a month, how many do you ever admit you're wrong?

Quite a few actually. A lot more than when they've ever admitted they're wrong, that's for sure.

I've yet to see any even when people are able to legitimately back up their case whilst you just spew a bunch of "No you're wrong because I said so" bullshit.

I've yet to see them present any argument other than that either. Like I said, don't patronize me for shit you and they are also guilty of as well.

Don't try to push your opinion upon everybody because there's a difference between a strong, supported opinion and a weak, one sided opinion.

Okay, this is FUCKING bullshit. Let's get this straight: THE GUY WHO CLAIMS HE'S SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE AND A TRUE MOVIE FAN SIMPLY BECAUSE HE PREFERS SUBTITLES AND THEY DON'T ISN'T PUSHING HIS OPINION ON EVERYBODY.

Yet I am? Seriously, dude, go home with your backwards logic. It doesn't make any sense.

It's not like these people here aren't willing to listen to your argument, but when they're able to prove you wrong each time, all you do by just saying "no you're wrong and here's me saying the opposite of everything you say" is to stir the pot and prove to everyone else that you are one sided.

I've proven them wrong countless times and they've never admitted to it. Why must I always be the one who does so first? Once I do, I'm usually walked all over by these guys who feel they're better than me for some reason just because they got me to admit I'm wrong on something. They NEVER admit it. THAT'S bullshit.

[JohnLocke2342]

wow, Lord Simen man.. commmeeee on. Some people can see a great performance in another language without understanding it. Some people can not. You are part of the latter, and cosmic is part of the former. Who. The Fuck. Cares. Just get over it and accept that they don't mind seeing an actor's performance in a language they don't understand.


and btw, back to topic, I can agree. When I went to watch Oldboy with some of my friends and I had to watch it dubbed. I didn't think it was that bad, but it was AWFUL compared to the original subtitled version. All because they didn't wanna "read" the subtitles. sigh.

[Sonny Corleone]

I've seen all my foreign movies in both dubbed and subtitled versions and honestly, the subtitled versions do come off better. But dubbing can be fun sometimes 'cause the actors sound retarded.

[LordSimen]

wow, Lord Simen man.. commmeeee on. Some people can see a great performance in another language without understanding it. Some people can not. You are part of the latter, and cosmic is part of the former. Who. The Fuck. Cares. Just get over it and accept that they don't mind seeing an actor's performance in a language they don't understand.

Fine. Whatever. I don't even know how that argument got started anyway. Some people can, some people can't. Who cares.




You know what I do care about? People telling other people they're inferior because they prefer dubbing to subtitles. That I care about. And that I will NEVER, EVER fucking quit arguing against regardless of how many of you guys decide to agree with said people.

[LordSimen]

LordSimen what the hell is the matter with you, the OP was obviously a joke. How do you not realize that? Christ.

Where the fuck did he say it's a joke? He never even stated it as a joke. He just continued to argue FOR that point regardless, as if it was his initial point. If it was a joke, he should have indicated it sooner. Because there's NOTHING funny about it.

[The Heart Collector]

LordSimen what the hell is the matter with you, the OP was obviously a joke. How do you not realize that? Christ.

[Le_Big_Mac]

LordSimen, if there's such a thing as a thread killer, then you commit third-degree murder everywhere you go.

[LordSimen]

LordSimen, if there's such a thing as a thread killer, then you commit third-degree murder everywhere you go.

I'd take it as an honor if someone tells me that I managed to kill a thread entitled "If you prefer dubbing to subtitles, then you are not a true movie fan." That would be a mark of pride for me.


I can't believe there exists a place where I'm crazy, weird and hated for being the one who doesn't agree that someone who watches only subtitled movies is a superior movie fan to anyone who enjoys a dubbed movie.

[Le_Big_Mac]

It's not that you're inferior for it. You can't totally determine the potential of someone's brain by their choices. It's that you'll never see the performances, or the film in general, the way they're meant to be seen and, in that respect, you'll never be able to offer a proper criticism of the film. However, according to everything you've said, you lack the ability to perceive performances in another language, and to comprehend subtitles fast enough. I admit there are some aspects of a foreign performance that an English speaker will never understand, but for most people, it's simply not difficult to see the majority of it. Let's leave it at that.

[zombievictim]

I was hoping that would happen. Thanks for proving my point in every way shape and form.

[LordSimen]

It's not that you're inferior for it. You can't totally determine the potential of someone's brain by their choices. It's that you'll never see the performances, or the film in general, the way they're meant to be seen and, in that respect, you'll never be able to offer a proper criticism of the film. However, according to everything you've said, you lack the ability to perceive performances in another language, and to comprehend subtitles fast enough. I admit there are some aspects of a foreign performance that an English speaker will never understand, but for most people, it's simply not difficult to see the majority of it. Let's leave it at that.

What makes subtitles so much more like the movie was "meant to be seen?" The movie wasn't meant to be seen with words at the bottom of the screen distracting you from the rest of the movie. Just like the movie wasn't meant to be seen with another actor's voice over the performing actor. Either way, there's some quality added or subtracted that can either take away or add onto the film depending upon where you sit. Neither one makes you superior or inferior and neither one is more like the original film than the other. Each one is changing one aspect, that makes them equal. The only thing that makes them different is personal taste, not intelligence or how much of a fan you are of film.

It's not that I personally believe dubbing is superior, I like both. Some films I prefer dubbed and others I prefer subbed, it just depends upon the film. Some films subbed confuse me while other films don't. My choice upon which I prefer is entirely made on which makes the viewing experience easier- WHICH IS THE POINT OF BOTH SUBTITLES AND DUBBING'S EXISTENCE. To make the viewing experience as easy as possible for the foreign audience.

Which is also why neither of them is less lazy than the other, because they're both essentially the lazy "Easy way out" options designed so foreign audiences can watch the film. Personal preference over one or the other doesn't make you lazy.

[Le_Big_Mac]

What makes subtitles so much more like the movie was "meant to be seen?" The movie wasn't meant to be seen with words at the bottom of the screen distracting you from the rest of the movie. Just like the movie wasn't meant to be seen with another actor's voice over the performing actor. Either way, there's some quality added or subtracted that can either take away or add onto the film depending upon where you sit.

So there isn't a big difference between words blocking out a little part of the screen that cause you to look down for about one second and entire performances being butchered?

[Scarfather]

This thread is hysterical.

[jdparker]

So basically my point is blind people shouldn't watch movies.


HAHAHA funny post.

Personally I prefer subtitles to dubbing, I get taken out of the movie when the words don't match up to the lips moving.

I see the pro's and con's of each though, and wouldn't say that someone isn't a real movie fan because they like one over the other... that's silly. To each his own.

EDIT: Or her own!

[LordSimen]

So there isn't a big difference between words blocking out a little part of the screen that cause you to look down for about one second and entire performances being butchered?

There is no difference. In the case of the subtitles, the frame is butchered by adding a distraction. Both butcher something, it's just depends upon which one you feel comfortable with the most.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Godzilla movies wouldn't be as funny without dubbing. Other than that, the only rationale for dubbing is that people are so frightened by reading.

[LordSimen]

"Butcher" is too harsh a word to describe the effect of little words that occasionally show up in the same place on the screen, but whatever you say.

I could say the same to you about dubbing. I'd hardly call putting dialogue you can understand over dialogue you don't butchering a performance. Cause it's not like you can understand the dialogue to begin with. Much like subtitles, the effects on the film are minimal. It's up to the person which is more important to them. Some prefer dubs, some prefer subs. Neither of which make you any less of a person, a film fan or any more or less intelligent.

[Le_Big_Mac]

There is no difference. In the case of the subtitles, the frame is butchered by adding a distraction. Both butcher something, it's just depends upon which one you feel comfortable with the most.

"Butcher" is too harsh a word to describe the effect of little words that occasionally show up in the same place on the screen, but whatever you say.

[thedudeman69]

man. I want to watch a subtitled film just to smite LS.

[X-Nightcrawler]

What's strange is that everyone is aware you can't stop LordSimen from retorting to your argument, whether that retort is an actual point or just him repeating what he's already said, yet these ocurrences still happen. Much moreso lately.

Here's a tip: stay away from the tiny "Quote" button in LordSimen's posts.

Sorry, LS, because I don't personally dislike you, but you're fantastic at making a discussion stop being fun, or enlightening. And often make threads turn to a toilet. And it'd be a better world where you either learn how to actually discuss something, or where everyone else learns not to try you.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Oh come on, you know that this place would be significantly less interesting if we didn't have him arguing with someone in almost every thread.

[LordSimen]

man. I want to watch a subtitled film just to smite LS.

I like how people just completely gloss over my points and make gross accusations and assumptions that I hate subtitled films. I don't.

Why am I the one on trail here and not the person who basically said "HEY, YOU, OVER THERE, YOU'RE NOT A REAL FILM FAN BECAUSE I SAY SO," again? Sometimes you guys make no sense.

[X-Nightcrawler]

On topic!

I too prefer subtitles to dubbing. Always. No exception.

But saying "You're not a real movie fan if. . ." is totally fucking stupid. Knowing that, and being aware that someguy ISN'T stupid, I can easily tell he was being facetious. It ain't rocket science.

[LordSimen]

If he was joking he should just come out and say it already. He already started arguing earlier reiterating his point that you're not a true film fan unless you watch subtitled films. That leads me to personally believe that he wasn't joking. But who knows. You could be right.

[LordSimen]

Why would you say that?

[thedudeman69]

LS,

You have no sense of humor whatsoever.

It is in your face clear that he was joking from the start. You know someguy, he's always saracastic.

[jolanar]

He never indicated it was a joke. Joke or not, it wasn't fucking funny. And you can think that. But if you think for one minute that your personal preference makes you better than anyone- You are wrong.


This pretty much sums up the entire thread.

Some people prefer subtitles, some people prefer dubbed.

It's like saying your not a cheeseburger fan if you don't put lettuce on your burger.

[Shinigami]

All jokes aside, I just coughed up an S-shaped doorknob, so I'm going to take a milk bath. See you all later.

[Tweek]

There's no excuse for it unless you're illiterate or blind (but then again, would the blind REALLY be movie fans anyways? Name me a blind movie critic). And I sure as shit know no blind or illiterate people are gonna come on here and tell me how wrong I am. They can't read this post and there ain't no fancy braille computers laying around. Hell, if there were blind people could never afford them! They can't even get a job! And you think disability will pay for that? The only possibility I can see is if a rich person went blind but those aren't REAL blind people anyways. I'm talking about the 'what's a colour?' blind people. How about you blind people wait around for James Cameron to waste another 30 years on some braille movie technology (you can LITERALLY feel the difference).

So basically my point is blind people shouldn't watch movies.

What the hell?! This post has to be in some sort of jest. But in case it is NOT.


There's legal blindness and then complete blindness. I'm legally blind (getting steadily more blind) with a lovely duo of things but I still can fucking watch movies. What does a braille computer have to do with watching a movie? There's something called descriptive video out there. And adaptive equipment doesn't always even cost an arm and a leg (hint hint... Anyone who wants my Christmas wish list contact me. We will meet by the carousel at the county fair at 2PM. [tired, sorry])

A lot of subtitled movies are placed in strange parts of the screen. That doesn't mean I don't give it a go but I have to use discretion... I don't necessarily prefer one over the other. It's a movie-by-movie thing.




The only real argument someone can make about subtitles being bad is just 'i don't wanna read' which is nothing but pure laziness. Trying to seriously pull out the 'subtitles are lazy because you won't learn the language' argument is ridiculous. When you pull out that card you're essentially telling me to go learn hundreds of different languages so I can properly understand the film. So basically let me sum up. Subtitling and dubbing both have pros and cons, but subtitling is still 99.9% of the time better than dubbing because it is the closest thing to fully understanding a foreign film besides understanding the language. If given the option of watching a film subtitled or dubbed and you always choose dubbing, you are not a real movie fan because you are preferring an improper version of the original intended version of the director's 'vision.' Just like preferring full screen to wide screen does not make a person a real movie fan because they are missing out on the full 'vision' of the director.

Sigh.


Not a real movie fan? I guess you'll want my badge and gun.



And um... Can we talk about the subtitles on Battle Royale? (I believe it was Korean Max)... I'm pretty sure they were fuckin' crap for chunks of the movie.

[crodger]

I rented Hard Boiled and found out it was dubbed so I didn't watch it. I can't stand dubbed movies, it just doesn't feel right to me. But, that doesn't mean it's not right for everybody. It's a matter of personal opinion.

[someguy]

people who are blind to jokes shouldn't read threads

[LordSimen]

People incapable of making good jokes shouldn't make jokes in the first place. Also, it would have been nice if you gave us an indication you were joking instead of CONTINUING to argue against us. But glad to see you've finally come out and said it.


What's the point of this thread again now that it's all a joke?

[Tweek]

people who are blind to jokes shouldn't read threads
So the point of the joke (which I acknowleged it could very well be) is...?

[Scarfather]

I'd like to pop in and say that I think someguy is copping out by saying that this is a joke thread when the opening post is one thousand percent true.

[countchocula]

For the record, the visual information that you are missing by reading subtitles is usually a face talking. It's not incredibly important. I've watched at least 100 subtitled films, and I've never been confused by the subtitles. A normally functioning brain should not be confused by subtitles. That's not an insult. I'm not saying that LS is an idiot. I'm saying that being confused or flustered by subtitles is not normal. Of course, I'm not a scientist, but I would wager that I'm onto something.

[LordSimen]

For the record, the visual information that you are missing by reading subtitles is usually a face talking. It's not incredibly important. I've watched at least 100 subtitled films, and I've never been confused by the subtitles. A normally functioning brain should not be confused by subtitles. That's not an insult. I'm not saying that LS is an idiot. I'm saying that being confused or flustered by subtitles is not normal. Of course, I'm not a scientist, but I would wager that I'm onto something.

That's not true. Just because your brain is able to comprehend the information perfectly doesn't mean others can't. And it also doesn't mean your brain functions any more proper than theirs.

Some people just get flustered by multiple points of visual information thrown at them at once. Are the people who can't tell what's happening in a Michael Bay movie experiencing a brain malfunction, or are they simply being flustered by too much visual information at once?

And for the record, I put more value on that talking head than I do on it's voice. Because the head I can understand- The voice I can't.

[JohnLocke2342]

dammit Lord Simen don't bring Michael Bay into this

[LordSimen]

dammit Lord Simen don't bring Michael Bay into this

Why? Because it's true? That there's no difference between someone getting flustered with too much visual information in a Michael Bay movie, or hell a Paul Greengrass movie and someone being flustered by too much visual information in a movie with subtitles?

If you're gonna call those who have trouble with subtitles people whose brains aren't functioning properly, then all those guys who complained about not being able to tell an arm from a leg in Transformers must have improperly functioning brains too. Because it's the same damn reason they are having trouble.

[Lady Stardust]

*sign* i feel another thread lock coming on.:(

[someguy]

WHAT did the Red Hot Chili Peppers do when their record label told them they didn't like their new tracks?




















well they went out and bought long sleeve shirts

[someguy]

For the record the content of my first post is not serious but i do think people who prefer dubbing to subtitling have no excuse other than they don't want to read and are just lazy. It doesn't mean I think I am superior to the person because, well, enjoying movies doesn't mean jack shit towards the overall integrity of someone. If some Mother Teresa figure preferred dubbing I'd still think they're lazy but I wouldn't think they were inferior to me because they prefer watching movies in one way that's fucking ridiculous. Dubbing can be excepted in the cases of cheesy movies like Godzilla or animation but if I was given the option to watch a film with subtitles or with dubbing I would always choose the former. It's easier to immerse oneself into a movie with subtitling because, despite LS' claims of distractions and frame butchering, it makes people pay more attention to the screen and is a hell of a lot easier to get immersed in the movie than seeing Asian people talking in an American voice that doesn't match to words. Subtitles should be the standard for watching foreign films though, and this stupid idea of 'i don't wanna read' needs to go away fast.

[Cop No. 633]

You're dead wrong SomeGuy. Dead wrong. You better sleep with your eyes open.

[zombievictim]

You're dead wrong SomeGuy. Dead wrong. You better sleep with your eyes open.

Impersonation?

[Shinigami]

Aren't dubs going the route of the dodo anyways? The movie market has become so international that I think people are adjusting to the subtitle standard over dubbing. There are lots of theaters in my city that show foreign films subtitled, and these aren't arthouse joints either. They're normal and they're mainstream. So I'm guessing that means subtitles are coming out on top, or will soon. Unfortunately, I have no statistics or facts to back up that observation, but I hope it's true all the same.
Also, I'm a fan of anime, and that medium is filled with these sorts of conversations. The "true fans" have learned the native language and watch anime "raw" (without subtitles), while the rest of us "pop-fans" see the shows we love subbed or dubbed. And I've never had a problem with that terminology. I know the thread starter was joking about, but he's right all the same. Yes, someone that takes the time to preserve a show/film as precisely as possible is the more hardcore fan. Duh. True blue devotees of foreign cinema wouldn't taint their experience with the cons of subtitles or dubs, neither of which can compensate for actually knowing the language of the film you're watching, but who wants to be that obsessively detailed in the first place? That's why I don't mind being a "pop-fan". Subtitles always give me enough understanding to enjoy whatever I'm watching, and that's more than enough. I know certain phrases, terms, whatever - certain details can't be precisely translated from one language to the next, sure, but those flubs never bother me. Although I still can't stand dubs (especially with anime). Does anyone here know of any foreign movies with exceptional dubbing? I've never been able to enjoy that stuff unless it's on z-grade cheese like Machine Girl. Weapon X mentioned Bebop, but I never got used to the English voices on that one...
Although I haven't heard Black Lagoon's dub work yet.

[Cop No. 633]

No, I'm just letting him know... Zombievictim.

Hey SomeGuy, you better get ready, 'cause at three o' clock today, I'm gonna rape you!

[someguy]

You're dead wrong SomeGuy. Dead wrong. You better sleep with your eyes open.

i'll just surround myself with various lines of text to distract you

[Homyrrh]

I haven't read more than a half-dozen posts, and only those in the context of my own previous remark, but you did solicit a damn hearty chucle from me :)

[LordSimen]

For the record the content of my first post is not serious but i do think people who prefer dubbing to subtitling have no excuse other than they don't want to read and are just lazy.

Wrong.

So I suppose poor eyesight doesn't exist in your world, huh? Neither does Dyslexia, or the idea that some people can't handle too much visual information thrown at them at once? These people are just being lazy?

It may be a fact that they don't want to read, but their reasons for not wanting to read are just as valid as your reasons for wanting to read. They don't want to read because it would make the visual experience MORE confusing than the movie would naturally be, WHICH DEFEATS THE POINT of subtitles. They were BOTH created to make the viewing experience easy. If ONE makes it harder, then going to the other one doesn't make you any more or less lazy.

Some people may just be lazy but, to ignore those who actually literally do have a natural problem with watching movie with subtitles would be FLAT OUT WRONG.

It's easier to immerse oneself into a movie with subtitling because, despite LS' claims of distractions and frame butchering, it makes people pay more attention to the screen and is a hell of a lot easier to get immersed in the movie than seeing Asian people talking in an American voice that doesn't match to words.

It's easier for YOU to be immersed in the movie with subtitles. Not for everyone. For others it takes them out of the experience and simply reminds them that they're watching a movie. It distracts them from the picture and makes them reads at the bottom of the screen WHICH takes away from the viewing experience of the film because they don't have time to watch the visuals.

Just because you find it it easier doesn't meant he rest of the world should, Someguy. Your standards shouldn't be the standards set for everyone.

[someguy]

Wrong.

So I suppose poor eyesight doesn't exist in your world, huh? Neither does Dyslexia, or the idea that some people can't handle too much visual information thrown at them at once? These people are just being lazy?

look at you blocking off the obvious purposely to try and work it against me, let me rephrase what i said to make it easier for you

"I do think that perfectly normal people with no mental or physical disabilities or conditions that would effect their eyesight or ability to process certain things at once who prefer dubbing to subtitling have no excuse other than they don't want to read and are just lazy."

I thought it would be pretty fucking obvious that I wasn't referring to dyslexic or blind people because it goes without saying but I really overestimate some people.

[LordSimen]

look at you blocking off the obvious purposely to try and work it against me, let me rephrase what i said to make it easier for you

"I do think that perfectly normal people with no mental or physical disabilities or conditions that would effect their eyesight or ability to process certain things at once who prefer dubbing to subtitling have no excuse other than they don't want to read and are just lazy."

I thought it would be pretty fucking obvious that I wasn't referring to dyslexic or blind people because it goes without saying but I really overestimate people.

If you're going to personally insult people, you better be fucking specific with who you're insulting. That's all I'm gonna say.

[CyclicNightmare]

I wish this thread was dubbed.

[LordSimen]

I'm not insulting anyone personally, I'm just confused as to why you couldn't get that I was talking about regular people and not those with conditions that make them unable to watch a film subtitled. Fuck, I talked about that in the first post and was being very obvious that I wasn't including those types of people but when I clarify my opinion to you you immediately start telling me I'm calling blind/dyslexic people lazy.

Your original post indicated people who couldn't read literally (illiterate) and people who literally couldn't see and needed braile to read (blind). It didn't mention others who maybe can read, just not as well as others or who simply might have trouble reading and viewing the movie at the same time. Excuse me for taking your words for exactly what they are saying.

[someguy]

I'm not insulting anyone personally, I'm just confused as to why you couldn't get that I was talking about regular people and not those with conditions that make them unable to watch a film subtitled. Fuck, I talked about that in the first post and was being very obvious that I wasn't including those types of people but when I clarify my opinion to you you immediately start telling me I'm calling blind/dyslexic people lazy.

[RicochetShaw]

I wish this thread was dubbed.

ftw

[Tweek]

I wish this thread was dubbed.

Me too. I'll just settle for the magnified screen. :cool:


I'm not insulting anyone personally, I'm just confused as to why you couldn't get that I was talking about regular people and not those with conditions that make them unable to watch a film subtitled. Fuck, I talked about that in the first post and was being very obvious that I wasn't including those types of people but when I clarify my opinion to you you immediately start telling me I'm calling blind/dyslexic people lazy.


I know you were directing that at LordSimen, but I interjected because I felt your comment was made out of ignorance. (Not intolerance...) But if it's a joke, no harm. I'll continue browsing the adaptive equipment catalogs.

[mel1ssa]

i'll just surround myself with various lines of text to distract you

just when i had decided that lurking in this thread was no longer worth it, i get a surprisingly good laugh.


watching a dubbed movie is like having a conversation with someone who has food in their teeth or an eyelash on their face. it's hard to focus on what it is they're actually saying because you just keep noticing that flaw.

[Rated R]

This thread has made the first two days of my work week more tolerable. Thank you one and all.

[The Heart Collector]

LORDSMENI your outRAge in this threaD IS UINSAnity

[KiKrusher99]

My friend Brendan watches movies dubbed and he's a huge moron... so I dunno. Also, reading Tweek's posts in this thread made me sad :(

[SamSanchez]

I only read a certain number of posts here, but as most, I really despise dubbing and attempt to avoid it as much as possible. And, I'm not sure if anyone brought it up to LS, but I guess its impossible to convey emotion in a Silent film, right? Because, since its too difficult to judge a performance when the language is in a foreign language, it must be just that much more difficult to judge a performance done in NO language.

[LordSimen]

I only read a certain number of posts here, but as most, I really despise dubbing and attempt to avoid it as much as possible. And, I'm not sure if anyone brought it up to LS, but I guess its impossible to convey emotion in a Silent film, right? Because, since its too difficult to judge a performance when the language is in a foreign language, it must be just that much more difficult to judge a performance done in NO language.

In a silent film the entire performance is it's movement. In a film that isn't silent, both the sound and the movement come into play.

[Preston_79]

I usually forget I'm reading if the movie is interesting.

Nothing disappoints me more than if I'm watching a subtitled movie with a girl and she complains she has to read. Major turn off. It's one thing if it's one of my moron guy friends, but very unattractive in a a women. Harsh, I know.

I don't know if it has anything to do with intelligence. But, for some reason it does seem to make you less of a human.:D Not why exactly, but if you can't read while watching a movie, you're expendable.

[sirdizzy]

How is thing to four pages, both Lord Simon the two major arguers of this discussion will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be willing to see the other persons point of view and they could argue this tell we are all collecting social security.

I am with Lord Simon as far is this goes, when given the choice between dubbing and subtitles I will always choose dubbing. For me I get more enjoyment out of the movie by being able to watch it in my native tongue. Movies are a visual experience and no matter how good you are at reading at keeping up with the action of the film you will never be able to truly capture that visual experience by having to focus a good portion of your energy reading the subtitles.

I don't think bad subtitling actually ruins an actors performance for me, a great portion of spoken language is translated in body language. I still get their emphasis and their performance through their body language. While I may miss a lot of that body language by focusing on the subtitles. You could make the point that subtitles allow people like Someguy to actually be lazy because they don't have to seperate poor dubbing from body language and take in all the action and visuals of the film.



What I hate is people who are unwilling to see movies because they are subtitled. A movie only being available in subtitles has never stopped me from watching a movie and it never will but god damn if I can hear it in English I am going to listen to it in my native tongue every time and that does not make me less of a movie fan it just makes you a fucking elitist movie snob for thinking so of me, to which I say fuck you because I really don't care what someone on the internet may infer from me liking one format to the other. And to infer that dubbing is similar to full screen is absurd nothing is lost in dubbing, the visual perfomance is there all that is gone is something I could not judge or evaluate anyways because I don't speak the language that is being removed.

[someguy]

Oh come on now, can we seriously stop acting like 2 lines of text on a screen is like some giant block covering up the frame? I don't think I'm missing out on a lot of the screen by using subtitles unless each cut lasts for 2 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong but some films have the subtitles placed on black bars so they don't intrude on the frame. And as I've pointed out, don't subtitles make people pay more attention to the screen since they have to understand what's going on? It's the bottom 5 or 10 percent of the screen, this isn't some Todd Solondz box shit.

How is thing to four pages, both Lord Simon the two major arguers of this discussion will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be willing to see the other persons point of view and they could argue this tell we are all collecting social security.

I understand Lord Simen's point of view perfectly, just because I disagree with all of it doesn't mean I'm not willing to see his POV. He says dubbing isn't as distracting as subtitles, I can understand this for someone who has a medical problem but a regular person should be able to comprehend what's going on. I can counter with the fact that dubbing is quite distracting too since it's hard to really immerse yourself in the movie when the mouths don't match the words. He said that it's impossible to tell a good foreign performance, I pointed out that Marillon Cotillard's performance in La Vie En Rose won the Oscar and he simply said that the award is invalid. I would say that example shows who is more unwilling to see the other side.

I am going to listen to it in my native tongue every time and that does not make me less of a movie fan it just makes you a fucking elitist movie snob for thinking so of me, to which I say fuck you because I really don't care what someone on the internet may infer from me liking one format to the other. And to infer that dubbing is similar to full screen is absurd nothing is lost in dubbing, the visual perfomance is there all that is gone is something I could not judge or evaluate anyways because I don't speak the language that is being removed.

Surprising that you would blatantly break the rules like this, but you do seem to choose dubbing over subtitles because it's easier. You just want to hear it in your native tongue as you say. Rather than put a little effort in to be closer to how the movie is intended to be viewed (as in the original audio track and the full performances intact) you find it easier to view it in English. Subtitling may be the 'harder' choice but it's more rewarding than dubbing.

[Tweek]

Maybe I'm wrong but some films have the subtitles placed on black bars so they don't intrude on the frame.

Some. Not nearly enough though.

:mad:

[therealjohng]

I don't think I've ever seen a subtitled movie with the subtitles above the black bars and if they were, they were barely above them.

[someguy]

Their award is invalid unless they speak the language. You can't properly judge a performance based on body language alone. You can only judge tone if you know what they're saying and whether or not the tone is well placed.

I just wanted to bring this up again since Simen seems to not think that he treats his opinion as the absolute truth. Because the Oscars did not agree with him, he just deemed them invalid. Yes, he said the Best Actress award is invalid because he is right about what he says.

Not only are the Academy Awards invalid, but it appears that the BAFTAs, Boston Society of Film Critics, the Czech Lions, the Golden Globes, the Kansas City Film Critics Circle, the London Critics Circle, the LA Critics Association, the Palm Springs International Festival, the Satellite Awards, the Seattle International Film Fest and the Vancouver Film Critics Circle are all also invalid!!! This may come off as a little hypocritical for Simen to attack me for acting like I'm better than others when he just said he's better than all of those groups.

[Tweek]

Yeah... There's quite a difference between deeming it invalid and mere disagreement.

[Tweek]

I don't think I've ever seen a subtitled movie with the subtitles above the black bars and if they were, they were barely above them.


And I've never seen them right smack dab in the middle of the frame. (Save for Man on Fire's erratic-ness "Who's the boss?!" lol. I might be forgetting more.) I just would like to see more in the black bars and out of frame. Call me crazy.

[awaits being called "crazy";)]

[someguy]

It's understandable but there would be complaints about the AR being fucked with.

[countchocula]

So it doesn't affect a film when a Chinese actor in China delivers his dialogue with a perfect English accent? Bad dubbing is worse than bad acting. Besides, 70% of communication is non-verbal. Everyone on this message board has seen enough movies to know when a performance is lacking. Emotion is universal.

[Jon Lyrik]

ZOMG wonder wut LordSimen will say to your pwning ubudes.

[LordSimen]

Oh come on now, can we seriously stop acting like 2 lines of text on a screen is like some giant block covering up the frame? I don't think I'm missing out on a lot of the screen by using subtitles unless each cut lasts for 2 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong but some films have the subtitles placed on black bars so they don't intrude on the frame. And as I've pointed out, don't subtitles make people pay more attention to the screen since they have to understand what's going on? It's the bottom 5 or 10 percent of the screen, this isn't some Todd Solondz box shit.

Subtitles may not be a giant block covering up the frame, but Subtitles do not make you pay more attention to the screen. They make you pay more attention to the BOTTOM OF the screen, rather than the movie itself. Because unless you look down at the bottom, instead of at the actor's face, you will have no idea what's going on. And for some people, this will only lead to confusion for some movies and make the viewing experience HARDER and a CHORE, which would DEFEAT the purpose of subtitles to begin with.



I understand Lord Simen's point of view perfectly, just because I disagree with all of it doesn't mean I'm not willing to see his POV. He says dubbing isn't as distracting as subtitles, I can understand this for someone who has a medical problem but a regular person should be able to comprehend what's going on. I can counter with the fact that dubbing is quite distracting too since it's hard to really immerse yourself in the movie when the mouths don't match the words. He said that it's impossible to tell a good foreign performance, I pointed out that Marillon Cotillard's performance in La Vie En Rose won the Oscar and he simply said that the award is invalid. I would say that example shows who is more unwilling to see the other side.


This coming from the guy who calls everyone who doesn't prefer subtitles to dubbing an untrue movie fan and then later backtracks it by claiming it's a joke. Nice. Real nice Someguy. You've proven you're unwilling to see the other side time and time again for then go around claiming that your points were just "jokes," despite the fact that YOU ARGUED FOR THEM EARLIER. Try again, Someguy. I see through your facade.


Surprising that you would blatantly break the rules like this, but you do seem to choose dubbing over subtitles because it's easier. You just want to hear it in your native tongue as you say. Rather than put a little effort in to be closer to how the movie is intended to be viewed (as in the original audio track and the full performances intact) you find it easier to view it in English. Subtitling may be the 'harder' choice but it's more rewarding than dubbing.


And YOU choose Subtitles over learning the original language BECAUSE IT'S EASIER. Both are DESIGNED to be the easier choice. Don't even try to argue that. Ask anyone who works on subtitles and translations for a living and they'll tell you their FIRST job is to make the viewing experience as EASY as possible and as CLOSE to the original experience as possible. When they FAIL to do that, THEIR subtitles defeat their purpose.

I defy you to tell me that Subtitles aren't there to make the viewing experience easier. I defy you to tell me that Subtitles aren't an easy way out and a lazy choice. I defy you to even ATTEMPT to argue that somehow Subtitles are the way the movie was meant to be seen, when we all fucking know the movie was NOT shot with the subtitles in the first place. If you're going to argue that that people should only watch the movie the way it was shot, THEN BOTH SUBTITLES AND DUBBING SHOULD BE PUT ON TRAIL. Not just one. Both of them ADD something and TAKE AWAY from something. It just depends upon WHICH ONE you find less annoying and make YOUR experience easier.

One could easily argue that the original movie was shot with the intent of people being able to HEAR the dialogue, not READ it, correct? So wouldn't Dubbing also be keeping with the original intent of the piece as well, 'eh? Amazing how that works, huh? But no. You can't see the other side because YOU'RE the blinded one here. But I'm sure anytime someone proves your point to be invalid, you're just going to claim it to be a joke. Typical.


ZOMG wonder wut LordSimen will say to your pwning ubudes.

ZOMGS LAWL U REALLY GOT ME THERE JON LYRIK LAWL WHATEVER THE FUCK SHALL I DO NEXT.

Try harder.



P.S. I already gave up on that fucking argument about the performance earlier. In fact, I conceded on to it. Let it go.

Double P.S.: Oh, and another thing. I fucking LOVE how you guys are able to sit there and personally insult anyone who prefers dubbing over subtitles, calling them STUPID, saying they LOOK STUPID, saying they're "just retarded," calling them inferior, calling them untrue movie fans, saying they're lazy and then when someone actually decides to throw a crack at you, you whine about the board rules. That's just wonderful, guys. Why don't YOU stop insulting him and anyone else who likes dubbing, myself included, before you turn around and complain about someone insulting you.

[zombievictim]

Haha this thread gives me a good laugh whenever I come here.

[Rated R]

Double P.S.: Oh, and another thing. I fucking LOVE how you guys are able to sit there and personally insult anyone who prefers dubbing over subtitles, calling them STUPID, saying they LOOK STUPID, saying they're "just retarded," calling them inferior, calling them untrue movie fans, saying they're lazy and then when someone actually decides to throw a crack at you, you whine about the board rules. That's just wonderful, guys. Why don't YOU stop insulting him and anyone else who likes dubbing, myself included, before you turn around and complain about someone insulting you.

Other than someguy (who I think by now it's been established that he was joking) who has really "insulted" you or anyone who prefers dubbing? People have been expressing their preferences and it has been very much in favour of subtitles. You like dubbing, we got that. Calm down, this is not important, you do not need to be validated by these people as long as you know your preference. If someone else thinks preferring dubbing makes someone inferior, that's their problem, why are you making it yours?

In the end, it was a joke you took the wrong way. He didn't say it was a joke, because that defeats the purpose of sarcasm which is what he was going for. The rant section as I'm sure you're aware of is usually home to hyperbole to bring home a perspective. Just because someone does this does not make them right, or applicable to everyone only his or herself.

In the end, what has this thread done for you other than make you hostile towards pretty much everyone who has voiced an opposite perspective? For bystanders such as myself I have had a few days of laughter at the back and forth, but come on, why does this matter to you so much? Let it slide...the dude abides.

[LordSimen]

Other than someguy (who I think by now it's been established that he was joking) who has really "insulted" you or anyone who prefers dubbing?

Who? Have you been reading the same thread I've been reading?

Yea that really doesn't make you a less a film fan, it just makes you seem stupid.

I personally just think its laziness. I hate when I start watching a foreign film with somebody and they say to change it because to quote people "If I wanted to read I'd get a book" I mean ahhhh!!! It's just so annoying.

So yeah they're just retarded.

^ Apparently if someone prefers dubbing to subtitle, it makes them seem stupid, it makes them lazy, and people who prefer it are "just retarded."

Yeah, that's not an insult AT ALL. :rolleyes:

I don't see how anyone could consider dubbing a good choice. It ruins performances and almost always results in much worse performances, just because you're too lazy to read. And you have to be pretty unperceptive not to know a truly great performance in a foreign language when you see one.

Once again someone calling the people who prefer dubbing to subtitles lazy.




Yeah, the sky is blue and people breath oxygen. Wow, thanks for clarifying me on the fact that things have pros and cons. Like I didn't know this? Subtitling is naturally better than dubbing, like full screen is naturally better than widescreen because it's the closest thing to properly understanding a foreign film besides actually understanding the language. And preferring dub to sub doesn't mean you're less of a person. It just means that you aren't a real fan of films. Just like if you prefer full screen to wide screen because 'you don't like the bars' (the only excuse for a person who hates it) you aren't a real movie fan.

The only real argument someone can make about subtitles being bad is just 'i don't wanna read' which is nothing but pure laziness. Trying to seriously pull out the 'subtitles are lazy because you won't learn the language' argument is ridiculous. When you pull out that card you're essentially telling me to go learn hundreds of different languages so I can properly understand the film. So basically let me sum up. Subtitling and dubbing both have pros and cons, but subtitling is still 99.9% of the time better than dubbing because it is the closest thing to fully understanding a foreign film besides understanding the language. If given the option of watching a film subtitled or dubbed and you always choose dubbing, you are not a real movie fan because you are preferring an improper version of the original intended version of the director's 'vision.' Just like preferring full screen to wide screen does not make a person a real movie fan because they are missing out on the full 'vision' of the director.

Someguy, before he claimed his thread was a joke, made arguments where he DIRECTLY referred to people not being real movie fans if they prefer dubbing. Look at the quote above. He ARGUED it. If it was a joke, he SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED IT THE MOMENT SOMEONE TOOK IT THE WRONG WAY. Rather than arguing and continuing to INSULT them.


You don't have to be fluent in a certain language to infer that a performance is too hammy or too stoic or too animated or too whatever. It's not rocket science. It's just a case of simple perception. You won't find a professional film critic who agrees with you, unless they have poor vision. It takes one second to read a line of dialogue. It's not a distraction. If subtitles "confuse" you, then your brain does not process information properly. That's a fact.

Oh great. Now if you prefer dubbing to subtitles, you brain must not function correctly! Wow! If you can't handle too much visual information, YOUR BRAIN must be inferrior! Thanks Countchocula for NOT insulting me. :rolleyes:

See the rolls eyes I've been using? That indicates sarcasm. Not saying nothing and arguing the point again. That doesn't indicate sarcasm, that indicates you mean what you fucking say.


For the record, the visual information that you are missing by reading subtitles is usually a face talking. It's not incredibly important. I've watched at least 100 subtitled films, and I've never been confused by the subtitles. A normally functioning brain should not be confused by subtitles. That's not an insult. I'm not saying that LS is an idiot. I'm saying that being confused or flustered by subtitles is not normal. Of course, I'm not a scientist, but I would wager that I'm onto something.

Now we're not normal if we have trouble watching subtitles. Great. Wonderful. Grand. I suppose those who have trouble watching Michael Bay or Paul Greengrass movies must "not be normal as well." Thank you once again for not insulting us. :rolleyes:


I usually forget I'm reading if the movie is interesting.

Nothing disappoints me more than if I'm watching a subtitled movie with a girl and she complains she has to read. Major turn off. It's one thing if it's one of my moron guy friends, but very unattractive in a a women. Harsh, I know.

I don't know if it has anything to do with intelligence. But, for some reason it does seem to make you less of a human.:D Not why exactly, but if you can't read while watching a movie, you're expendable.


Granted, the quote above may have been in jest as the smiley suggests. But personally, I don't care if you're joking or not- You're directly insulting the guys who prefer dubbing to subtitles. "HEY SOMEGUY, YOU'RE LESS OF A HUMAN BEING BUT I'M JUST KIDDING SO DON'T GET INSULTED:D:D:D:D:D:D"

Fuck that.




People who say they prefer dubbing to subtitles because they personally find it superior IS FINE. People saying you're somehow less of a person, lazy, not a real movie fan, not normal or what the fuck ever BECAUSE you prefer dubbing ARE WRONG. They insulted us, those who prefer dubbing or those (like myself) who have no problem with dubbing.



You like dubbing, we got that. Calm down, this is not important, you do not need to be validated by these people as long as you know your preference. If someone else thinks preferring dubbing makes someone inferior, that's their problem, why are you making it yours?

FUCK NO. I will not calm down. I refuse to calm down when people who prefer dubbing are being thrown up and hanged while the guys directly insulting people are just getting away with it simply because the majority agrees with their fucked up opinion on their own superiority. That's not their problem, that's the problem of everyone being insulted by them. And I REFUSE to back down to elitist snobs who choose to tell me or anyone else I'm less of a film fan, lazy or inferior simply because I sometimes for some movies prefer one style of translation over another.



In the end, it was a joke you took the wrong way. He didn't say it was a joke, because that defeats the purpose of sarcasm which is what he was going for. The rant section as I'm sure you're aware of is usually home to hyperbole to bring home a perspective. Just because someone does this does not make them right, or applicable to everyone only his or herself.


A joke that HE CONTINUED TO ARGUE until the heat started to get on him. Then he backed up and said "Woah, I was just joking guys!" Even if it was a joke, the joke was still fucking insulting. I'm not laughing. Just because you hide your insulting racism inside a joke doesn't make your insults any less insulting. The same goes for this fucking situation. And sarcasm usually has something to indicate it is sarcasm. He posted no indication that this thread was sarcasm until after the fact. I don't believe him.


In the end, what has this thread done for you other than make you hostile towards pretty much everyone who has voiced an opposite perspective? For bystanders such as myself I have had a few days of laughter at the back and forth, but come on, why does this matter to you so much? Let it slide...the dude abides.

What does it matter to me so much? Why does it matter? I can't believe you even have to ask that. Why would people practically forming verbal lynching mobs for people just because they prefer dubbing to subtitles NOT matter to me? That directly matters to me. I don't like sitting by and watching people getting trashed personally, directly or indirectly, by a bunch of people who have been too busy smelling their own shit thinking it's golden to realize that just because they prefer subtitles: THEY AREN'T BETTER THAN ANYONE. They aren't less lazy, they aren't smarter, they aren't somehow superior in their brain function, they aren't any more or less normal than the rest. Sorry, but I can't sit by and watch that. I will fight it with every fucking fiber of my god damn being.

[zombievictim]

Okay, I'll go on record people, I think that people who prefer dubs over subs are lazy. Is that insulting? I don't care if you think so cause it's my opinion and nothing can be changed with it. This is a site where we voice our OPINIONS. Mine may be wrong, but from where I'm standing, I've seen no logical argument to say otherwise. So take a step down from your throne for a second.

[LordSimen]

Okay, I'll go on record people, I think that people who prefer dubs over subs are lazy. Is that insulting? I don't care if you think so cause it's my opinion and nothing can be changed with it. This is a site where we voice our OPINIONS. Mine may be wrong, but from where I'm standing, I've seen no logical argument to say otherwise. So take a step down from your throne for a second.

You're the one calling people lazy because they don't have the same preference than you, and you're telling me to get off MY throne? Nice job at making no sense, Zombie.

[Le_Big_Mac]

How is thing to four pages, both Lord Simon the two major arguers of this discussion will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be willing to see the other persons point of view and they could argue this tell we are all collecting social security.

I am with Lord Simon as far is this goes, when given the choice between dubbing and subtitles I will always choose dubbing. For me I get more enjoyment out of the movie by being able to watch it in my native tongue. Movies are a visual experience and no matter how good you are at reading at keeping up with the action of the film you will never be able to truly capture that visual experience by having to focus a good portion of your energy reading the subtitles.

I don't think bad subtitling actually ruins an actors performance for me, a great portion of spoken language is translated in body language. I still get their emphasis and their performance through their body language. While I may miss a lot of that body language by focusing on the subtitles. You could make the point that subtitles allow people like Someguy to actually be lazy because they don't have to seperate poor dubbing from body language and take in all the action and visuals of the film.



What I hate is people who are unwilling to see movies because they are subtitled. A movie only being available in subtitles has never stopped me from watching a movie and it never will but god damn if I can hear it in English I am going to listen to it in my native tongue every time and that does not make me less of a movie fan it just makes you a fucking elitist movie snob for thinking so of me, to which I say fuck you because I really don't care what someone on the internet may infer from me liking one format to the other. And to infer that dubbing is similar to full screen is absurd nothing is lost in dubbing, the visual perfomance is there all that is gone is something I could not judge or evaluate anyways because I don't speak the language that is being removed.

It's funny because, even though I still don't agree with him, sirdizzy has formulated a better argument in four paragraphs than LordSimen has in four pages.

[Scarfather]

I like how LordSimen is pretending that schmoes here fancy themselves some ARYAN MOVIE WATCHING RACE.

Get ze pan & scan und dubbing vatchers into ze gas chamber!

[zombievictim]

You're the one calling people lazy because they don't have the same preference than you, and you're telling me to get off MY throne? Nice job at making no sense, Zombie.

Yes. I find someone who doesn't want to read lazy. Just like I'll call someone who doesn't want to walk a block a would rather drive, lazy. The big difference with my opinion is that I voiced it, not saying mine is the ultimate and everyone should listen to me. I've just said that I this is what I believe. You on the other hand have been trying to force your opinion down everyones throat. It gets old after about the 1000th time you do it.

[LordSimen]

Yes. I find someone who doesn't want to read lazy. Just like I'll call someone who doesn't want to walk a block a would rather drive, lazy. The big difference with my opinion is that I voiced it, not saying mine is the ultimate and everyone should listen to me. I've just said that I this is what I believe. You on the other hand have been trying to force your opinion down everyones throat. It gets old after about the 1000th time you do it.

Your opinion IS being forced down my throat. You're CALLING me lazy if I choose dubbing to subtitles. Get off your fucking throne Zombie and get over your self.

And as long as you're forcing your opinion down mine, be damn sure I'm going to force mine down yours. Get use to it or get over yourself. Which ever happens first.

[zombievictim]

Your opinion IS being forced down my throat. You're CALLING me lazy if I choose dubbing to subtitles. Get off your fucking throne Zombie and get over your self.

And as long as you're forcing your opinion down mine, be damn sure I'm going to force mine down yours. Get use to it or get over yourself. Which ever happens first.

Yes it is being forced down your throat seeing as how I stated that I'm just voicing my opinion and really don't consider it the ultimate decision on the topic. It's my opinion. And yes, I'm calling you lazy for choosing dubs over subs. Am I 100% correct? No. Is it my opinion? Yes. Just like I believe Se7en is the greatest movie of all time. Am I going to sit and tell everyone else they're wrong for not thinking so? No. I'll accept their opinion even though I think otherwise. You on the other hand go "OMG! Hostel is teh greatest movie ever! You don't think so? THIS is why you're wrong!" And unlike you, I'm able to admit that rather than just saying "No you're wrong! I'm right because I say so." Get the difference, or do I need someone to read it to you?

[Tweek]

Okay, I'll go on record people, I think that people who prefer dubs over subs are lazy. Is that insulting? I don't care if you think so cause it's my opinion and nothing can be changed with it. This is a site where we voice our OPINIONS. Mine may be wrong, but from where I'm standing, I've seen no logical argument to say otherwise. So take a step down from your throne for a second.

I feel so ignored. Sigh.

[LordSimen]

Yes it is being forced down your throat seeing as how I stated that I'm just voicing my opinion and really don't consider it the ultimate decision on the topic. It's my opinion. And yes, I'm calling you lazy for choosing dubs over subs. Am I 100% correct? No. Is it my opinion? Yes. Just like I believe Se7en is the greatest movie of all time. Am I going to sit and tell everyone else they're wrong for not thinking so? No. I'll accept their opinion even though I think otherwise. You on the other hand go "OMG! Hostel is teh greatest movie ever! You don't think so? THIS is why you're wrong!" And unlike you, I'm able to admit that rather than just saying "No you're wrong! I'm right because I say so." Get the difference, or do I need someone to read it to you?

If I were to say it was my opinion that you're a "fucking piece of shit jack ass who should burn in fucking hell for being such a condescending moron," you know very well I'd be banned on the spot. Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean you aren't shoving it down my throat and doesn't mean you aren't insulting people DIRECTLY when you are calling them lazy. You shouldn't be held in some special regard just because a bunch of people agree with your opinion on people who watch dubbed movies.

[zombievictim]

If I were to say it was my opinion that you're a "fucking piece of shit jack ass who should burn in fucking hell for being such a condescending moron," you know very well I'd be banned on the spot. Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean you aren't shoving it down my throat and doesn't mean you aren't insulting people DIRECTLY when you are calling them lazy. You shouldn't be held in some special regard just because a bunch of people agree with your opinion on people who watch dubbed movies.

See, that's your opinion and I don't really care. People think what they want to. And I believe shoving it down your throat would be repeatedly saying "No no no. That's wrong because I say it is." You've done that. I've simply stated it as my opinion and haven't acted as otherwise. You however, have not only stated your opinion but you are treating it as THE ONLY way. Which is not the case.

And I'm sure I'll get a smartass response saying how I'm wrong and that I'm a fool, as has been the case with all of your responses with me thus far. Which is cool because it's your opinion and it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

[LordSimen]

See, that's your opinion and I don't really care. People think what they want to. And I believe shoving it down your throat would be repeatedly saying "No no no. That's wrong because I say it is." You've done that. I've simply stated it as my opinion and haven't acted as otherwise. You however, have not only stated your opinion but you are treating it as THE ONLY way. Which is not the case.

And I'm sure I'll get a smartass response saying how I'm wrong and that I'm a fool, as has been the case with all of your responses with me thus far. Which is cool because it's your opinion and it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

And in my opinion shoving your opinion down people's throat INCLUDES degrading and insulting them simply because they don't follow your personal preference or not.

[Badbird]

You know, I clicked on his profile and really expected him to be younger...

[countchocula]

Jesus, you're more defensive than a hockey goalie who is hiding a corpse beneath the ice. That's pretty defensive. You do understand that there are parts of the brain that control short-term memory, reading comprehension, and visual rentention, right? Your brain may not be well-developed in those areas. THAT'S NOT AN INSULT! It's no more of an insult than saying that you have green eyes. I can't sit and read a book for more than 20 minutes at a time. Does that mean that I'm an inferior being? No, it just means that my brain doesn't allow me to lose myself in reading material.

I maintain that a brain should not be overstimulated by subtitles, unless certain parts of the brain are poorly developed.

What's so illogical and insulting about what I just typed?

[LordSimen]

Jesus, you're more defensive than a hockey goalie who is hiding a corpse beneath the ice. That's pretty defensive. You do understand that there are parts of the brain that control short-term memory, reading comprehension, and visual rentention, right? Your brain may not be well-developed in those areas. THAT'S NOT AN INSULT! It's no more of an insult than saying that you have green eyes. I can't sit and read a book for more than 20 minutes at a time. Does that mean that I'm an inferior being? No, it just means that my brain doesn't allow me to lose myself in reading material.

I maintain that a brain should not be overstimulated by subtitles, unless certain parts of the brain are poorly developed.


I highlighted the insulting parts for you since you asked.

[X-Nightcrawler]

You're a pretty insecure fellow, aren't you?

[LordSimen]

You're a pretty insecure fellow, aren't you?

Yes, actually. Not ashamed to admit that. Combination of a lot of things made me develop that way, I can't help it.

[Scarfather]

You can be insulted by something that's true, but that doesn't make it any less true.

I'm insulted by Mark Wahlberg's bad acting. Doesn't change anything.

[LordSimen]

You can be insulted by something that's true, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Countchocula's arguments may have much more merit and basis in science and logic than the rest of them. But that doesn't change the fact that there's nothing to misinterpret with the words "Lazy," "Stupid" and "Retarded" in the context they were used in this thread. And don't mistake it, they were used as insults.

[Rated R]

What does it matter to me so much? Why does it matter? I can't believe you even have to ask that. Why would people practically forming verbal lynching mobs for people just because they prefer dubbing to subtitles NOT matter to me? That directly matters to me. I don't like sitting by and watching people getting trashed personally, directly or indirectly, by a bunch of people who have been too busy smelling their own shit thinking it's golden to realize that just because they prefer subtitles: THEY AREN'T BETTER THAN ANYONE. They aren't less lazy, they aren't smarter, they aren't somehow superior in their brain function, they aren't any more or less normal than the rest. Sorry, but I can't sit by and watch that. I will fight it with every fucking fiber of my god damn being.



You're not a martyr here dude. I find likening your situation to that of a lynch mob borderline offensive. If you think you're accomplishing anything by arguing constantly, you are incorrect. I agree with you when you say they aren't better than anyone else, but how do you expect people to react when you get bent out of shape to the extreme? Your crazy rage is just fuelling the fire, if you calmed down, debated the topic in a more rational matter this might not have gone where it has. You're not getting any sympathy because you're coming across in a very whiny way. Even if someguy was out of line, it doesn't matter now because this has turned into the LordSimen is Pissed Show. Great entertainment for many, but you're just getting more and more pissed and making no progress.

Like I said...let it slide, move on it's not worth your time.

[LordSimen]

I find likening your situation to that of a lynch mob borderline offensive.

That offends you, and yet people getting called lazy, stupid and retarded over personal preferences doesn't?

[Rated R]

That offends you, and yet people getting called lazy, stupid and retarded over personal preferences doesn't?

No, because it's not important to me, and I should have said it better. Comparing this situation to a lynch mob is ridiculous, it is a terrible metaphor that holds no water.

Look, all I'm trying to say here is that you're losing your cool and you're not accomplishing a damn thing. Seriously, if you want your argument to be taken seriously you need to chill or people will keep laughing and having fun getting you excited.

This is not important, this is not life altering, but you're acting like your life hinges on you taking this thread to the limit! Ease up, have a drink or go for a jog, clear your mind and ignore the guys that piss you off, they aren't worth your time. Especially on the internet, where none of us are real people anyway.

[rilocay]

Theres a fair bit of discussion here, so i'm just going to comment on the original poster and the headline. I've read through most of the thread but can't be bothered to bring up each post. I may repeat whats been said before though.

I'd say this comes from Older foriegn movies, and movies in general dubbed. I mean, before the whole dvd thign came along, for alot of people the only way they saw a foreign flick was through a dubbed vhs. And old dubs are pretty horrendous. Most of them overact or underact, let alone how the voice sounds witht he look of the person, and can quite easily take someone out of the film.

Subtitles are subtle (pardon the pun) and while i agree with LordSimen that they can and do detract from what's on screen (especially in animation), they don't take you out as much of the film because
a)they are subtle, small enough to see what's on screen yet big enough to read
b) because we read quicker than we speak and
c) because alot of the time the subs give you the whole sentance long before the actor has finished their line, letting you go back to look on the screen.

Now it also depends the genre of film, i mean animation has some real awesome quality dubs out there (probably has the worst aswel though). But here's the thing that i'm not sure if LordSimen has addressed. With subtitles, you hear the original actors emotion and delivery of the line, for better or worse. With a dub, it's generally going to be out of sync and no matter how well delivered, will look odd and sound odd compared to the acting it is put over. Now that for me and i'd say the mojority of schmoes on this board, can and does take us out of the movie far more than a sub ever could. It's just far worse.

This whole thread is stupid saying one is lazy while the other isnt. It's about the bloody delivery of dialogue through dubbing and how it doesn't work as good as a sub, because it detracts one out of the film and out of the directors work/intention more than a sub does. Visually, you generally still have enough time to go back and suss the scene, with a subs, whereas a dub can overlap an audio cue or sound effect aswel.

Anyways thats what i think, remember that while film is primarily a visual experience, sound is equally important. They both work together to convey something to the viewer, and generelly subtitles detract that bit less form the work.

I say so anyways.

[The Postmaster General]

"Dramas, arthouse films, B-action movies, spaghetti westerns... no difference if it's not in my native language."

[RicochetShaw]

man. I want to watch a subtitled film just to smite LS.

Well that's hateful.

And the correct word is "spite."

[someguy]

But here's the thing that i'm not sure if LordSimen has addressed. With subtitles, you hear the original actors emotion and delivery of the line, for better or worse. With a dub, it's generally going to be out of sync and no matter how well delivered, will look odd and sound odd compared to the acting it is put over.

He addressed this point saying that it doesn't matter because you can't understand a performance in another language unless you speak it (but he has 'conceded' this), but he also claimed that the dubbed version of Oldboy has performances equal to the subtitled version. Oh and don't forget, he's getting in a fit over people acting superior to others but at the same time deemed the AMPAS invalid because they didn't agree with him.

Your post is a good argument for subs though. And about my 'backing off' by saying it's a joke, I was responding to Tweek's post first where she went and posted about the blind stuff because that was obviously a joke. The rest of the stuff was done more out of politeness to focus away from 'IT'S NOT A JOKEEEE' and go back to subtitles v dubbing (subtitles still win). But I do think that a perfectly normal person who prefers dubbing to subtitling is choosing dubs out of laziness since it's more convenient for them. Trying to pull in the 'well subs are lazy compared to learning the language' argument is ridiculous. First off, this thread isn't even about that. It's only about subtitles and dubbing, not other forms of translations. Plus the comparison is absurd. I'm talking about whether or not to watch a film with the lines dubbed over in English or reading the lines while the original audio track plays. Trying to equate that with learning an entire language is dumb and a poor comparison.

I was originally going to make this thread serious with a comparison about how much like FS v WS is like re-directing a film by changing/blowing up the image, dubbing in its own way re-directs the film too since the audio track becomes an approximation of what the director did (like how FS is an approximation of how the director would work within the bounds of a 4:3 AR). I started up on that but then just went 'fuck it' and made a stupid rant because I thought I would just be saying the obvious. I didn't expect the thread to turn into someone saying they were being lynched.

[sirdizzy]

I have literally begun to just scan this thread real quickly, its the same arguments over and over. I am guessing someguy is going to call me lazy for doing that too.

I don't understand how wanting to hear a movie in my native tongue so that I can focus on the visual experience can be deemed lazy. Can you imagine watching a movie like Lord of the Rings in subtitles and you were German and you wanted to not be lazy like someguy claims. How much would you miss, I mean some movies are just too beautiful to be spending a good portion of the film reading the actors lines, it has nothing to do with laziness no matter how much someguy will tell you it is.

[Tweek]

And about my 'backing off' by saying it's a joke, I was responding to Tweek's post first where she went and posted about the blind stuff because that was obviously a joke.

I wasn't sure... ;) Mostly because there are people who sincerely believe those things in some form. (Well about blind/visually impaired people.)

[LordSimen]

I was originally going to make this thread serious with a comparison about how much like FS v WS is like re-directing a film by changing/blowing up the image, dubbing in its own way re-directs the film too since the audio track becomes an approximation of what the director did (like how FS is an approximation of how the director would work within the bounds of a 4:3 AR). I started up on that but then just went 'fuck it' and made a stupid rant because I thought I would just be saying the obvious. I didn't expect the thread to turn into someone saying they were being lynched.

You essentially made a rant claiming that a huge section of movie goers (some of which who love film just as much as you) are not "real movie fans."

If you didn't expect people to take it personally, then I don't know what to say to you. You basically directly insulted someone and are wondering why they are so upset.

[someguy]

I have literally begun to just scan this thread real quickly, its the same arguments over and over. I am guessing someguy is going to call me lazy for doing that too.

Not at all. Discussions with LS always boil down to repetition.


I don't understand how wanting to hear a movie in my native tongue so that I can focus on the visual experience can be deemed lazy. Can you imagine watching a movie like Lord of the Rings in subtitles and you were German and you wanted to not be lazy like someguy claims. How much would you miss, I mean some movies are just too beautiful to be spending a good portion of the film reading the actors lines, it has nothing to do with laziness no matter how much someguy will tell you it is.

Rilocay summed this up nicely. Reading one or two lines is very brief and a shot will last long enough to understand what's going on. I watched the film Night Watch in subtitles, I had no problem understanding what was going on visually. That movie has a ton of stuff going on visually, I don't remember missing out on anything at all. Reading subtitles are just not as distracting from the picture as you claim. If they really were such a nuisance they wouldn't be used so much. So yes, I still find dubbing to be the 'lazier' choice when given the option of only subtitles or dubbing. I didn't know that people found subs so distracting from the overall image. Two lines will probably take a second or less to read, the delivery of a line will probably last more than one second. The shot itself will probably last for much longer than one second. It doesn't take long to process what you see on the screen, I really feel that I'm not so distracted by subtitles that the fine detail of a shot is ruined. Could you give an example of a film you saw subtitled that made you miss out on the visuals? I've seen Sympathy for Lady Vengeance and even though it was subtitled I still found it to be one of the best looking movies to come out in years after my first viewing. To me it seems like your point is saying that because of subtitles the visual impact would have been lost on me but I didn't get that at all.

[Badbird]

You essentially made a rant claiming that a huge section of movie goers (some of which who love film just as much as you) are not "real movie fans."

Huge? A huge section of movie goers?

I find that... hard to believe.

It really is the same argument as WS vs FS. You're only getting part of the movie. Sure, it's enough to understand what's going on, but you're still missing something.

So do you have a hard time in action movies when the terrorists speak in their foreign tongue and there are subtitles for their dialogue? That must drive you crazy not being able to see how they are arming the nuke because you have to spend the whole scene reading about it.

[bigred760]

It really is the same argument as WS vs FS. You're only getting part of the movie. Sure, it's enough to understand what's going on, but you're still missing something.

But with WS-FS, the "missing" piece isn't being replaced. Where dubbed movies, the dialogue is simply being substituted.

[The Postmaster General]

"Holy shit, did you hear Ian McKellen's inflection when he told Frodo not to wear the ring? This movie is fucking genius!"

[sirdizzy]

Huge?

It really is the same argument as WS vs FS. You're only getting part of the movie. Sure, it's enough to understand what's going on, but you're still missing something.


The point is your missing something that you couldn't fully appreciate nor understand because what is being taken out is a foreign language. Your not missing the actors lines nor the dialogue because that is being replaced with speech that you can understand. Sure you may be missing some of the inflections and vocal performance but in all honesty because those were in a language you do not speak the loss is very very very minimal.

I think if dubbing was done really well in most films (I have to concede their is some pretty bad dubbing out there) this would be much more of a moot point, because really bad dubbing can be distracting and can detract from the film. But in all honesty by dubbing a film you are not losing anything (just something you aren't fully able to understand and everything taken out is replaced with a language you speak) what you are doing is creating a possible destraction in the film. If people are ok with that why should you care.

Again focus your anger on people unwilling to see a foreign film because its a foreign film.

[The Postmaster General]

No, you're missing the point sirdizzy. Reading is always more intelligent than not reading, even if it is reading while you are sitting on your ass eating nachos and watching poorly acted kung fu movies. No, no, no, everyone knows that reading is for intellectuals and not reading is for the lazy. That's why I keep me a subscription to Vibe Magazine - just so I can get extra turtle neck and black-framed glasses cred.

What's funny is that a lot of the people who are saying watching dubbed movies is for the lazy are some of the same people who have said they would rather read condensed or cliff note versions of other people's posts. So, we can see that sometimes the most stringent opinions might derive from self-discovery.

[dellamorte dellamore]

I love dubbing in Italian horror films and Anime , it's part of the charm , but everything else , particularly French films , i want it to be in the original language .

[thedudeman69]

Oldboy dubbed is superior to it's subtitled. I watched it three times subtitled and was still confused by the time I was done as to what the hell had happened. It wasn't until I turned on the dubbing, and watched it, that I understood the plot through and through. The performances in Oldboy were the same whether or not I watched it dubbed or subbed, it really didn't make much of a difference..

Oldboy is actually not that complex of a film. It's more so in its message, but not that hard to figure out what's going on. they showcase hints towards the ending, and you can actually figure it out yourself without using the dubbing because the film is is in your face with what it is saying and doing. Also, the dubbing on the Oldboy dvd is just horribly bad that I cannot watch the movie when it is on.

[someguy]

No, you're missing the point sirdizzy. Reading is always more intelligent than not reading, even if it is reading while you are sitting on your ass eating nachos and watching poorly acted kung fu movies. No, no, no, everyone knows that reading is for intellectuals and not reading is for the lazy. That's why I keep me a subscription to Vibe Magazine - just so I can get extra turtle neck and black-framed glasses cred.

What's funny is that a lot of the people who are saying watching dubbed movies is for the lazy are some of the same people who have said they would rather read condensed or cliff note versions of other people's posts. So, we can see that sometimes the most stringent opinions might derive from self-discovery.

Someone's a little miffed.

[LordSimen]

Rilocay summed this up nicely. Reading one or two lines is very brief and a shot will last long enough to understand what's going on. I watched the film Night Watch in subtitles, I had no problem understanding what was going on visually. That movie has a ton of stuff going on visually, I don't remember missing out on anything at all. Reading subtitles are just not as distracting from the picture as you claim. If they really were such a nuisance they wouldn't be used so much. So yes, I still find dubbing to be the 'lazier' choice when given the option of only subtitles or dubbing. I didn't know that people found subs so distracting from the overall image. Two lines will probably take a second or less to read, the delivery of a line will probably last more than one second. The shot itself will probably last for much longer than one second. It doesn't take long to process what you see on the screen, I really feel that I'm not so distracted by subtitles that the fine detail of a shot is ruined. Could you give an example of a film you saw subtitled that made you miss out on the visuals? I've seen Sympathy for Lady Vengeance and even though it was subtitled I still found it to be one of the best looking movies to come out in years after my first viewing. To me it seems like your point is saying that because of subtitles the visual impact would have been lost on me but I didn't get that at all.


Do I really need to bold every single use of the word "I" in this entire paragraph before you understand that just because you find Subtitles easy doesn't mean the rest of the world would find them just as easy? And as I've stated before- The entire point of both subtitles and dubbing is to make the viewing experience as easy as possible for a foreign audience. If one makes it harder to view, that one has defeated it's purpose. Not everyone finds Subtitles to be the easier choice. And just because you do, doesn't mean those that don't are somehow lazier than you are. You're both choosing the lazy option- That's what both subtitles and dubbing are- LAZY options when you compare them to the other less popular choice.

[countchocula]

Huh? I'm lazy because I don't know Mandarin or Italian? How are subtitles a lazy option?

Movie buffs who are "distracted" by subtitles are the exception, not the rule. That could mean that subtitles aren't the problem.

[Cronos]

I love this thread, gets funnier with every post.

[Scarfather]

Funny:

I was on Google Image Search looking for someone passed out in front of their computer to represent how bored I am with this thread, but then I found this-

http://www.theboykins.com/FamilyPictures/DanielleComputer.jpg

and laughed my ass off because it's how I picture one of the posters in this thread.

[LordSimen]

Huh? I'm lazy because I don't know Mandarin or Italian? How are subtitles a lazy option?


Huh? I'm lazy because I don't know Mandarin or Italian? How is dubbing the lazy option?

You proved my point for me. Thanks.

[LordSimen]

I think you've proved my point by "proving" your "point."

That would mean your point is my point. That just because we choose subtitles or dubbing, it doesn't make us lazy. It doesn't make us stupid. It doesn't make us retarded. It's just a personal preference, that's all.

That's my point. If I proved your point, then your point must be that as well.

[countchocula]

I think you've proved my point by "proving" your "point."

I'm done. The Orphanage is an amazing film.

[Badbird]

And I just watched the 3.5 hour version of Das Boot in German. No problem here with the reading and watching the picture... But I have a big TV.

[thedudeman69]

I want to see the list of foreign films that LS has watched with subtitles.

Because it seems that he has only watched Oldboy and it was dubbed.

[sirdizzy]

I was going to watch the orphanage on netflix online the other day and my DSL must have been going slow because when it determined my picture quality I ended up with blury and hard to read subtitles so I stopped the movie like 5 minutes end and am just going to rent it.

Recently watch films that I watched that were subtitled
The Diving Bell and the Butterfly
Lust, Caution
Chocolat
Fists of Fury
Pan's Labryinth
Run Lola Run

and I would have still perfered to see the movies dubbed (run Lola Run is available dubbed but the dubbing is pretty atrocious so half the time I watch it I watch it subtitled just depends on what tv I am watching it on)

[LordSimen]

I want to see the list of foreign films that LS has watched with subtitles.


3 Extremes
Andromeda
Audition
Battle Royale
Battle Royale II: Requiem
Bloody Reunion
Cops vs. Thugs
Day Watch (Subbed and Dubbed, no preference)
Dead or Alive
Dead or Alive: Final
Devil's Backbone
Election
Evil (To Kako)
Family
Family 2
Frontier(s)
Fudoh: The New Generation
Full Metal Yakuza
Graveyard of Honor (remake)
Hard Boiled (Subbed and Dubbed, I prefer the dubbed)
High Tension (Subbed and Dubbed, I prefer the dubbed)
The Host (Subbed and Dubbed, no preference)
Ichi The Killer
Infernal Affairs (Subbed and Dubbed, no preference)
Infernal Affairs 2 (Subbed and Dubbed, no preference)
Infernal Affairs 3 (Subbed and Dubbed, no preference)
Irreversible
Izo
Kibakichi
Kibakichi 2
Lady Vengeance
The Neighbor No. Thirteen
Oldboy (Subbed and Dubbed, I prefer dubbed)
Osaka Tough Guys
Pan's Labyrinth
Pusher
Pusher II: With Blood On My Hands
Pusher III: I'm the Angel of Death
R-Point
Rainy Dog
Sabu
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance
A Tale of Two Sisters
Triad Election
Visitor Q
Yakuza Demon
Young Thugs: Innocent Blood
Young Thugs: Nolstagia


^ These are just the films I own that I've watched subtitles. If I were to include the films I've watched that I don't own, the list would take forever and I probably couldn't remember all of them.

[RicochetShaw]

Funny:

I was on Google Image Search looking for someone passed out in front of their computer to represent how bored I am with this thread, but then I found this-

http://www.theboykins.com/FamilyPictures/DanielleComputer.jpg

and laughed my ass off because it's how I picture one of the posters in this thread.



That was subtle.

I, and all schmoes, picture Machiavelli as well as other intellectual giants sitting in front of a computer when we read your posts.


Seriously, get the fuck over yourself. I'm sincerely baffled as to how you haven't earned a banning yet.

[Scarfather]

That was subtle.

I, and all schmoes, picture Machiavelli as well as other intellectual giants sitting in front of a computer when we read your posts.


Seriously, get the fuck over yourself. I'm sincerely baffled as to how you haven't earned a banning yet.

I like what you're doing here, but it fails inherently on the idea that there's anything to 'get over', or that I or anyone else would ever presume there to be so.

[NathanRomano]

I prefer subtitles.

Then I disappear.

[QUENTIN]

Despite all the bickering, petty back and forths, and offense taken here, I think at the end of the day we can all agree that if you prefer dubbing to subtitles, you are not a real movie fan.

[someguy]

I regret saying this was a joke even though I was referring to Tweek's post because I do really think those who prefer dub to sub aren't real movie fans.

[CyclicNightmare]

If you prefer LordSimen's posts to someguy's you are not a real schmoe.

[Moviefan1234]

After spending twenty minutes reading this thread, I think the simplest explanation is that if you prefer dubbing to subtitles you are uneducated in the world of cinema.

[LordSimen]

If you prefer subtitles to dubbing, you are no more a real movie fan than anyone else who loves movies.

[someguy]

I'd like to teach the world to speak
In perfect harmony
I'd like to buy the world a dub
And keep it company

[LordSimen]

I find it funny that you all say I push my opinions on other people, then turn around and tell me and anyone else who may prefer dubbed to subtitles on occasion or perhaps all the time that we are not real movie fans. Yeah. You're really not pushing your opinions on us. :rolleyes:

Get the fuck over yourselves. You aren't better than anyone else and stop pretending to be.

[Rated R]

My God it just won't stop will it? Whether you like it or not LS, the majority [by a wide margin at that] disagrees with you. While you take offense at how it has been worded, which you shouldn't because it's the internet and you don't actually know these people, you are failing at putting forth a consistent argument for yourself. You keep repeating the same sentence as though it's going to magically change what everyone has said and it won't. I don't know why you do this to yourself...but by all means...continue

[Preston_79]

I always assumed that when the dub, you're not really hearing what was said. They have to start a sentence and end it when the actors mouth begins and ends moving in another language. They try to capture what was said, but it's often slightly tweaked so it goes in accordance with mouth movement.

Another thing that bothers me is when I'm watching a Chinese film dubbed and everyone has an American Accent. When they do have accents they sound fake. I say fuck that.

I'd suggest to everyone, learn to read faster and someday you'll forget you're even reading if the movie is good enough. You complain about missing things on the screen, but while you watching the screen you're probably missing some interesting dialog. Sometimes I watch movies with the volume off and just read them. It always surprises me what I missed even when it's in English.

[LordSimen]

My God it just won't stop will it? Whether you like it or not LS, the majority [by a wide margin at that] disagrees with you. While you take offense at how it has been worded, which you shouldn't because it's the internet and you don't actually know these people, you are failing at putting forth a consistent argument for yourself. You keep repeating the same sentence as though it's going to magically change what everyone has said and it won't. I don't know why you do this to yourself...but by all means...continue

They're just repeating the same thing over and over again too. Just because you agree with them doesn't mean you should single me out, when they're doing the same thing. They haven't changed their argument since post 1 and it's continued that way to begin with because they refuse to admit that they are pushing their opinions on the rest of us and PERSONALLY insulting anyone who doesn't agree with them.

FUCK them and their elitist fucking bullshit. We aren't less of a movie fan just because you say so and I fucking refuse to let a bunch of assholes on a message board claim that we are. YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN ME, NOR ANYONE ELSE WHO PREFERS DUBS. STOP PRETENDING YOU FUCKING ARE.

[Preston_79]

Who's pretending?

[LordSimen]

Who's pretending?

Who's pretending? Just about every guy posting in this thread:

I regret saying this was a joke even though I was referring to Tweek's post because I do really think those who prefer dub to sub aren't real movie fans.


After spending twenty minutes reading this thread, I think the simplest explanation is that if you prefer dubbing to subtitles you are uneducated in the world of cinema.


Despite all the bickering, petty back and forths, and offense taken here, I think at the end of the day we can all agree that if you prefer dubbing to subtitles, you are not a real movie fan.

Need more examples?

Yea that really doesn't make you a less a film fan, it just makes you seem stupid.

I personally just think its laziness. I hate when I start watching a foreign film with somebody and they say to change it because to quote people "If I wanted to read I'd get a book" I mean ahhhh!!! It's just so annoying.

So yeah they're just retarded.

I don't see how anyone could consider dubbing a good choice. It ruins performances and almost always results in much worse performances, just because you're too lazy to read. And you have to be pretty unperceptive not to know a truly great performance in a foreign language when you see one.



I don't know if it has anything to do with intelligence. But, for some reason it does seem to make you less of a human.:D Not why exactly, but if you can't read while watching a movie, you're expendable.


See the pattern here, Preston? Apparently, if you prefer dubbing to subtitles (Which is merely a personal preference and nothing more), you are somehow lazy, stupid, uneducated in the world of cinema, less of a human, retarded AND not a true movie fan. There are fucking SCHMOES who prefer dubbing to subtitles. How anyone can get away with personally insulting their fellow schmoes so directly like this is beyond me. How anyone can agree with these fucking elitist and insulting point of views is equally beyond me.

Just because you prefer subtitles, DOES NOT make you better than someone who does not. And this constant pretending that you are, and pushing your opinions on the rest of us who don't is not only insulting it's fucking disgusting.

[Rated R]

I agree that subtitles are better than dubbing not that you are a base lifeform with minimal brainpower LordSimen for disagreeing. I was trying to be civil, and it achieved nothing.

I remember in grade school, the more someone would get worked up and upset, the more people would make fun of that kid to get them more worked up. I was once that kid who lost his cool, and realized it just wasn't worth it. Try meditating, or smoking herb, or hell I don't know squeezing off a few. Clear your mind....THIS IS NOT IMPORTANT!

[someguy]

How anyone can get away with personally insulting their fellow schmoes so directly like this is beyond me. How anyone can agree with these fucking elitist and insulting point of views is equally beyond me.

FUCK them and their elitist fucking bullshit. We aren't less of a movie fan just because you say so and I fucking refuse to let a bunch of assholes on a message board claim that we are. YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN ME, NOR ANYONE ELSE WHO PREFERS DUBS. STOP PRETENDING YOU FUCKING ARE.

You do realize your complaints are invalidated and that this is pure hypocrisy, right?

[Moviefan1234]

I remember in grade school, the more someone would get worked up and upset, the more people would make fun of that kid to get them more worked up.

Bingo, sir! I think this thread is a prime example of that, but it's going over his head.

[Tweek]

hell I don't know squeezing off a few.

I'm going there...


What do you MEAN?:p

[pheadx]

I think people who are not USED to dubbing can't discuss this. If you are in the States or England or France or Sweden or whatever, you won't have dubbed films. Every dubbing will at least feel a little awkward.
IF you are used to it, like we in Germany, you won't realize that it's actual dubbing. It's a psychological thing, if you are used to it.
And of course, at times, films will lose a big part of the strong acting, when you e.g. don't have that accent any more. On the other side, there are many performances that get richer through dubbing, e.g. Han Solos German voice in Star Wars is ten times better than the original.
Also Kubrick was well known for having an eye on the German dubbed versions and chosing the voices. Dubbing is an art on its own, when it's done well (e.g. the German versions of Lord of the Rings) it won't make a difference or it will even get better.
The obvious advantage is that you can get straight into a movie. Imagine it were actually as easy to get into LA VIE EN ROSE as into DIE HARD.

[thedudeman69]

FUCK them and their elitist fucking bullshit. We aren't less of a movie fan just because you say so and I fucking refuse to let a bunch of assholes on a message board claim that we are. YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN ME, NOR ANYONE ELSE WHO PREFERS DUBS. STOP PRETENDING YOU FUCKING ARE.

Can someone just ban this guy already? he keeps calling us assholes.

[LordSimen]

Okay, will someone please explain this bullshit to me? Half of you got on my fucking ass for taking his thread title seriously, telling me I have no sense of humor and that Someguy was obviously joking... Then when he just admits IT WASN'T a joke, instead of getting on his case like I was, more people come on in here and say the exact same thing he did, that "YOU ARE NOT A REAL FILM FAN BECAUSE I SAY SO," and basically directly insult a bunch of schmoes not only on a personal level, but also insult THEIR love for film, the very thing this site is dedicated to at it's core. And then, when I get pissed off at this and call them assholes for it, I'm the one who people think should be banned? Me? Not the guy telling you whether or not you're a film fan, but the guy who called the people doing that assholes? :confused:

And what do you mean "keeps?" When did I use the word asshole to describe anyone here other than right there?

[D.B. Cooper]

I think people need to take a step back and stop riling other people up. I think this thread could have been a page or two long if people could just agree to disagree. Theres no need to call for bannings, people just need to chillax. :)

[LordSimen]

I apologize to anyone who was insulted, hurt or angered by my assholes comment. I got angry and spoke out of anger without thinking. I'm sorry.

[Preston_79]

Who's pretending? Just about every guy posting in this thread:



Need more examples?









See the pattern here, Preston? Apparently, if you prefer dubbing to subtitles (Which is merely a personal preference and nothing more), you are somehow lazy, stupid, uneducated in the world of cinema, less of a human, retarded AND not a true movie fan. There are fucking SCHMOES who prefer dubbing to subtitles. How anyone can get away with personally insulting their fellow schmoes so directly like this is beyond me. How anyone can agree with these fucking elitist and insulting point of views is equally beyond me.

Just because you prefer subtitles, DOES NOT make you better than someone who does not. And this constant pretending that you are, and pushing your opinions on the rest of us who don't is not only insulting it's fucking disgusting.


Yeah, but they're not pretending if they really believe it. Know what I'm saying? You can tell them they're wrong, but they might believe otherwise in which case there's no need to pretend.

Like myself....I find it sad when a person refuses to read the subtitles. I'm sad, disappointed, and if it's a friend, maybe a little embarrassed.

Dude you're getting so worked up. You don't need us to agree with you for validation. You can still enjoy listening to your dubbed movies. Knock yourself out.

[LordSimen]

Yeah, but they're not pretending if they really believe it. Know what I'm saying? You can tell them they're wrong, but they might believe otherwise in which case there's no need to pretend.

Like myself....I find it sad when a person refuses to read the subtitles. I'm sad, disappointed, and if it's a friend, maybe a little embarrassed.

Dude you're getting so worked up. You don't need us to agree with you for validation. You can still enjoy listening to your dubbed movies. Knock yourself out.

The fact that they BELIEVE they're better than someone simply because they themselves prefer subtitles and that other person does not is even WORSE than simply pretending or saying it. THAT is sad, disappointing and embarrassing. Egotistical conceit if I've ever seen it.

Fine. If you guys are going to hold this holier than thou fucking opinion of yourselves and look upon the rest of us as your little low level, pawn scum underlings then fine. Be that way all you want. Doesn't make it right, nor does it make you right. You're wrong.

[Preston_79]

little low level, pawn scum underlings.

Your words, not mine.

Don't beat yourself up over this guy. Nothing that is said here can take away from what you experience when you watch a dubbed film. We don't know you. We don't stand over your shoulder and laugh when you watch dubbed movies.

Have you ever considered a little white lie? Just tell people you prefer subtitles and in the future you can avoid this. Trying to convince people dubbed is equal to subtitles is an uphill battle you could never possibly win.

[CriticalBill6966]

It depends on a lot of things for me. If its a movie that has good art direction along with directing then I rather watch it dubbed so I can pay more attention to the screen. If it has a bad voice over then I would rather watch it without.

What kills me, eventhough I'm not a huge fan of it, is people complaining about dubs on Anime. It doesn't matter either way people, its a freaking cartoon.

[LordSimen]

Your words, not mine.

Don't beat yourself up over this guy. Nothing that is said here can take away from what you experience when you watch a dubbed film. We don't know you. We don't stand over your shoulder and laugh when you watch dubbed movies.

Have you ever considered a little white lie? Just tell people you prefer subtitles and in the future you can avoid this. Trying to convince people dubbed is equal to subtitles is an uphill battle you could never possibly win.


I don't wish to convince people that dubbed is equal to subtitles as much as I wish to convince people that liking dubbed does not make you less of a person, less of a film fan, or less intelligent.

[Homyrrh]

Someone posted in the General Movie Thread that this was their favorite film because of how ridiculous the argument had become so I of course had to come back to see....

...and am wondering why there's no Related Videos bar on the right. This is a fucking deplorable joke. How ANYONE could say dubbing is better than subtitles is an infantile moron...:rolleyes:

[LordSimen]

...and am wondering why there's no Related Videos bar on the right. This is a fucking deplorable joke. How ANYONE could say dubbing is better than subtitles is an infantile moron...:rolleyes:

What is it with you people and your constant need to insult people based on their personal preference? What is it about THIS subject that makes it okay for all of you to just throw insults about at a whole group of film fans and make them seem like inferior fans, inferior people, and 'infantile morons?" No other subject you seem to allow this. I call someone an asshole and people flip out about it. But it's okay to call someone a moron, call someone lazy, call someone stupid, call someone not a real movie fan, call someone less of a person when it comes to Dubbing vs. Subtitles?

I don't get it. People would be banned for this on any other subject but for some reason everyone is just fine with bashing the fuck out of people who prefer dubbing or subtitles. Why? What the fuck makes it okay?

Someone earlier made it seem like it's okay to insult people if it's "your opinion," and that no one can change that. Well, then, fuck. We should get rid of the rules of this site, because if someone calls you an asshole, or a jerk, or a piece of shit, or a bastard, it's just their opinion and there's nothing wrong with that!

Will one of you guys who have thrown these insults around at the people who prefer dubbing please explain to me how somehow YOUR position on subbing vs. dubbing deems it acceptable to completely bash and belittle those who disagree with you? Because I don't see how it does.

[therealjohng]

Someone needs to dub this thread for me because I don't want to read it all.

[Tweek]

Someone needs to dub this thread for me because I don't want to read it all.

This joke is lame and derivative!

http://www.joblo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2782032&postcount=111


:D


And jeez...

This thread is gettin' all sortsa crazy.

[therealjohng]

This joke is lame and derivative!

http://www.joblo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2782032&postcount=111


:D


And jeez...

This thread is gettin' all sortsa crazy.


I haven''t read the whole thread so...yeah...bananas and pears....

[Homyrrh]

What is it with you people and your constant need to insult people based on their personal preference? What is it about THIS subject that makes it okay for all of you to just throw insults about at a whole group of film fans and make them seem like inferior fans, inferior people, and 'infantile morons?" No other subject you seem to allow this. I call someone an asshole and people flip out about it. But it's okay to call someone a moron, call someone lazy, call someone stupid, call someone not a real movie fan, call someone less of a person when it comes to Dubbing vs. Subtitles?

I don't get it. People would be banned for this on any other subject but for some reason everyone is just fine with bashing the fuck out of people who prefer dubbing or subtitles. Why? What the fuck makes it okay?

Someone earlier made it seem like it's okay to insult people if it's "your opinion," and that no one can change that. Well, then, fuck. We should get rid of the rules of this site, because if someone calls you an asshole, or a jerk, or a piece of shit, or a bastard, it's just their opinion and there's nothing wrong with that!

Will one of you guys who have thrown these insults around at the people who prefer dubbing please explain to me how somehow YOUR position on subbing vs. dubbing deems it acceptable to completely bash and belittle those who disagree with you? Because I don't see how it does.
...hence the tongue-in-cheek smiley, my mild-mannered friend. ;)

[The Postmaster General]

I think people who are not USED to dubbing can't discuss this. If you are in the States or England or France or Sweden or whatever, you won't have dubbed films. Every dubbing will at least feel a little awkward.
IF you are used to it, like we in Germany, you won't realize that it's actual dubbing. It's a psychological thing, if you are used to it.
And of course, at times, films will lose a big part of the strong acting, when you e.g. don't have that accent any more. On the other side, there are many performances that get richer through dubbing, e.g. Han Solos German voice in Star Wars is ten times better than the original.
Also Kubrick was well known for having an eye on the German dubbed versions and chosing the voices. Dubbing is an art on its own, when it's done well (e.g. the German versions of Lord of the Rings) it won't make a difference or it will even get better.
The obvious advantage is that you can get straight into a movie. Imagine it were actually as easy to get into LA VIE EN ROSE as into DIE HARD.


This has probably been the only comment that dealt with something resembling a discussion about the topic and not about board members' feelings, and it was made 3 days ago.

I think this thread is really subtitles lifted from an episode of Gilmore Girls.

[movie2cats]

I watch dubbed when I am going to sleep and just want some noise and a pretty picture. Not trying to insult anyone (since this thread is kinda touchy), just prefer subtitles for the most part. Hate reading foreign film to bed.

[Dirtyfrog]

Dubbed VS Sub is a personal choice. Whatever ppl like won't change a thing in my life or my enjoyment of a movie. What i didn't enjoy was reading 6 pages of "mostly" inane retorical comments.

I was raised on french-dubbed american movie on tv ( aaah the 80's) so i don't feel ackward watching a dubbed movie nowaday. True , some dubbing are awfuls just like some subtitles are awfuls but some are very well-made. Hey, if i could watch every movie in its original language i would but i'm limited to french & english so i have to have dub/sub to help me out for other languages. Whatever works is fine.

I agree with Pheadx when he says that most ppl in the States aren't used to dubbing and shouldn't discuss the matter ( France got shitload of dubbed movie , dunno about England ). The USA are notorious for never dubbing movies except anime , they just buy the rights and remake the movie ( The Ring , Taxi , Infernal Affairs , The Eye , etc ). Most foreign english-dubbed movies aren't even dubbed in the US but by english-speaking locals so you'll never get grade-A dubbing.

Here in Quebec , the dubbing industry is established and professional. The same guy will dub Tom Cruise in every movie he makes so you dont notice it that much. Also , they adapt the dialog to keep movie-goers interested so a good joke about the New York Yankees will be change for a joke about the Toronto Maple Leafs for example ( because french-speaking quebecers might not care about the Yankees at all but we do hate the Leafs. ).