Texas law helped clear man in prowler shooting

[MadsenOMC]

I believe this man should be charged with a crime for his actions, and I find it deplorable that he will get away with murdering two people. I know some of you will disagree, since the two victims were burglarizing someone else's home. However, last time I checked the punishment for burglary is not death.

This story alludes to the man's acts being self-defense, however, initial reports stated he shot them both in the back. If you read the last few paragraphs of the story, you'll see that he ignored the demands of the dispatcher and seemed cavalier about shooting them, as if it was fun, a game. I think he should be in prison for what he did.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/01/burglary.shooting.ap/index.html

Texas law helped clear man in prowler shooting

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Ever since he fatally shot two men he suspected of burglarizing his next-door neighbor's home, 62-year-old Joe Horn has been both praised and vilified for his actions.

Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the intruders. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but a defiant Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

Some community activists wanted Horn to face charges for the deaths. Supporters of the retired grandfather said what he did was justified under the law.

After listening to evidence in the case, including testimony from Horn himself, a grand jury on Monday cleared him of the shootings.

"He wasn't acting like a vigilante. He didn't want to do it," said Tom Lambright, Horn's attorney.

Lambright said Horn was not a "wild cowboy" who took the law into his own hands after he saw the two suspected burglars, with bags in hand, crawling out of windows from his neighbor's home on November 14 in the Houston suburb of Pasadena. The neighbor was out of town at the time.

Instead, Horn was a frightened retiree who tried to defend his neighbor's property and when the two men came onto his yard and threatened him, Horn defended himself, Lambright said.

"He was scared. He was in fear of his life," he said.

Grand jurors had to consider two issues in the case: the intentional killing of another person and whether the killing was justified either by self-defense or the defense of property, Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson told reporters. VideoWatch how a police dispatcher tried to talk Horn out of shooting »

"I understand the concerns of some in the community regarding Mr. Horn's conduct," Magidson said. "The grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn's use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offense."

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town. VideoWatch CNN's Jeff Toobin explain the law »

It's not clear whether the neighbor whose home was burglarized asked Horn to watch over his house.

Frank Ortiz, a member of the local League of United Latin American Citizens chapter, said he hopes federal authorities investigate the case further.

"That's amazing that they would no-bill him with so much evidence against him," Ortiz told the Houston Chronicle in Monday's online edition. "This was no more than a vigilante."

Horn did not speak with reporters on Monday.

A large red sign with the words "No Trespass" on it blocked the path to his front door and a handwritten sign on the door said "Please no media," "No Trespassing" and "Do not knock or ring bell." A couple of neighbors also had signs on their doors asking media to leave them alone.

A few police cars patrolled the area near Horn's home.

The two suspected burglars, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.

The city of Pasadena, where protesters and defenders of Horn engaged in counter-demonstrations, pledged to keep its police force staffed enough to protect its citizens.

Keith Hampton, a Houston attorney not connected with the case, said he didn't expect Horn to be indicted. "This is a real conservative county," he said. "A lot of folks in Houston and Harris County are saying this man was doing a good thing."

In the 911 call, a dispatcher urges Horn to stay inside his house and not risk lives.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

After the shooting, he redialed 911.

"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

[Cop No. 633]

I heard the recording on the radio when it first happened. The man was more than happy to kill them. He was itching to use his shotgun and it wasn't an act of self defense as they put it. If they had broken into his house, than it would be an act of self defense, but that never happened.

He ran outside, got the attention of the two men and shot them. Simple as that. You could hear it in his voice how bad he wanted to use his shotgun. He was advised over and over by the operator not to use his shotgun.

[Criminal Rock]

I saw this article on Drudge earlier today and I found it to be absolutely fucking ass-backwards.

What this man did was a hundred times worse than what the two burglars were doing. You don't take the law into your hands. You dial 911 and you let the police deal with the situation. Simple. This usually saves lives and the right people usually go to jail... if they get away, whatever. At least no one was hurt or killed.

And it's fucked up that the court seemingly ignored the fact that this guy taunted the thought killing the two men before even going outside, where he shot them both in the back. That's fucking murder. I don't care how anyone tries to justify it.

I don't know the guy and I wasn't there, so I don't know exactly what happened that night, but as it's written in the article it seems the guy just wanted to shoot somebody.

[SpoonMan999]

He should go to jail...end of story.

[Jon Lyrik]

He's a trigger-happy murderer. Which is fine in Texas apparently if it's thieves or Mexicans.

[jolanar]

He's a trigger-happy murderer. Which is fine in Texas apparently if it's thieves or Mexicans.

Double points if the thieves are Mexicans.

[bigred760]

It is a bit odd that he got off; his intentions were good, but I don't think he had to murder them. He's not the freakin' Punisher or something. He should've been punished or something.

"Don't mess with Texas."

[Homyrrh]

Were I either of the burglars, the sight of a shotty-packing Texas retiree would be enough to get me to drop my shit and get the fuck out.

Were I said shotty-packing Texas retiree, I'd realize this and fire a well off-target shot to intimidate.

According to the law posted in the OP article, apparently there was enough legal justification for his release. On the other hand, I too have heard the recording on FOX and am dumbfounded more than anything.

[The Postmaster General]

Yeah, I've never heard of someone having a flight response and moving toward danger. This was definitely "fight" and should have been treated as such.

Of course if it'd been a couple white kids from the suburbs who were bored during summer break, this guy would be spending the rest of his life in jail.

[Homyrrh]

Yeah, I've never heard of someone having a flight response and moving toward danger. This was definitely "fight" and should have been treated as such.

Of course if it'd been a couple white kids from the suburbs who were bored during summer break, this guy would be spending the rest of his life in jail.
He'd be up for parole at some point (well into the double-digits year-wise), but yes, that they are illegial immigrants, especially Hispanics in Texas, induces sympathy for the white guy.

The inherent problem of the case is the details. Were the two thieves breaking into his own home armed and intent on harm, and the 911 call was much more defensive and panicked in tone, his shots of self-defense would justifiably warrant no legal ramifications.

Interestingly, and unfortunately, because he shot two burglars on someone else's property (by Texas law, part of the ambiguity of the case), in the back, and apparently without direct threat to either him, his family, anyone else, or his property, shit hits the fan.

What caught my eye was the element of some Texas law that allows one to "look after" a neighbor's home in the latter's absence and essentially gives them some type of defense-of-property rights. If this is true, the only factor that could incriminate this guy was, I believe, the lack of any threat to his life.

[MadsenOMC]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012008dnmetfightingback.6a8cbd.html

This article offers more information about Texas's "Castle law." Even the law's author (state Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio) said it was not intended to apply in any situation involving someone else's home.

[Orson-Cockart]

Self defense must be allowed. Police don't always arrive at ETA. You see strangers on your land, you don't know what their intentions are, you should fire at will. Don't want to get shot? don't trespass. Horn informed the police, but they weren't present at time of the incident, so he stepped up to the plate. Who knows what they would have done had mr Horn not got involved. They shouldn't have been in the country, they certainly shouldn't have been trespassing on private property. Good for Joe Horn, a true hero.

[Orson-Cockart]

He's a trigger-happy murderer. Which is fine in Texas apparently if it's thieves or Mexicans.

It wasn't murder; it was justifiable homicide.

[jolanar]

I certainly don't feel sorry for the dead criminals, but they should have *at least* slapped him on the wrist with a year in jail... or something!

[MadsenOMC]

Self defense must be allowed. Police don't always arrive at ETA. You see strangers on your land, you don't know what their intentions are, you should fire at will. Don't want to get shot? don't trespass. Horn informed the police, but they weren't present at time of the incident, so he stepped up to the plate. Who knows what they would have done had mr Horn not got involved. They shouldn't have been in the country, they certainly shouldn't have been trespassing on private property. Good for Joe Horn, a true hero.

Are you fucking serious? Fire at will? What fucking planet do you live on? How is shooting two people in the back, killing them, justifiable homicide? That is not self defense. Horn was not in any danger. He was safely inside his own home. Had they broken into his home, that would be a different story, but that is not what happened. Even the fucking author of the bill said it was not intended to allow someone to shoot people on someone else's property. The point is, they didn't do anything to Horn, so it is in no way self defense. It was murder.

Can you imagine if we just started shooting all trespassers? That would be total insanity. Is that the world you live in?

[MadsenOMC]

I certainly don't feel sorry for the dead criminals, but they should have *at least* slapped him on the wrist with a year in jail... or something!

Be that as it may, vigilantism like this has no place in a civilized society.

[RicochetShaw]

This is lunacy. I'm so saddened by the grand jury's decision. I'm sure many of you heard the 911 call as I did. It was clear that this man had a disturbing blood lust and that he murdered those men. I can't believe he's going to get away with it.

[RicochetShaw]

You see strangers on your land, you don't know what their intentions are, you should fire at will. D.



Another classic quote from Orson Cockart, right up there with this (http://joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2768774#post2768774)...


Jewish men seem to have fantasies about their wife getting railed by a black man. Strange but true.

[Moviefan1234]

It wasn't murder; it was justifiable homicide.

That's not justifiable homicide, it's anarchy.

[The Postmaster General]

Good for Joe Horn, a true hero.

I was won over by that wording right there. I'm demanding T-shirts with this slogan on cafe press within the week!




I'm sure many of you heard the 911 call as I did. It


I could even buy the tone of his voice. Some old people are funny like that. They have a stock of affects that they use regardless of what's really happening. Careening off an icy road with their lap on fire from a dropped cigarette would get the same tone as hearing what they'd gotten in the mail that day. In the good spirit of the ever jovial Orson, I will say to this, God bless our old people.

The kicker though is that he ran out of his house. What would the police have done if they'd gotten there in a timely manner? They wouldn't have shot the burgers, that's for starters. It's pretty imbalanced. I don't see how stealing a coin collection, or whatever they got equates to two lives.

What's interesting is if this guy had been in Florida, and the two guys had been an alligator, he'd be going to jail for a long time.

[Homyrrh]

I was won over by that wording right there. I'm demanding T-shirts with this slogan on cafe press within the week!







I could even buy the tone of his voice. Some old people are funny like that. They have a stock of affects that they use regardless of what's really happening. Careening off an icy road with their lap on fire from a dropped cigarette would get the same tone as hearing what they'd gotten in the mail that day. In the good spirit of the ever jovial Orson, I will say to this, God bless our old people.

The kicker though is that he ran out of his house. What would the police have done if they'd gotten there in a timely manner? They wouldn't have shot the burgers, that's for starters. It's pretty imbalanced. I don't see how stealing a coin collection, or whatever they got equates to two lives.

What's interesting is if this guy had been in Florida, and the two guys had been an alligator, he'd be going to jail for a long time.
How sadistically humorous :D :(

[QUENTIN]

Self defense must be allowed. Police don't always arrive at ETA. You see strangers on your land, you don't know what their intentions are, you should fire at will. Don't want to get shot? don't trespass. Horn informed the police, but they weren't present at time of the incident, so he stepped up to the plate. Who knows what they would have done had mr Horn not got involved. They shouldn't have been in the country, they certainly shouldn't have been trespassing on private property. Good for Joe Horn, a true hero.

That's insanity. This isn't the Old West. He was in absolutely no danger at the time, he had simply found an opportune excuse to get to kill someone. They weren't breaking into his home, they weren't armed, they didn't threaten him. When he had the drop on them, he didn't even attempt a citizen's arrest at gunpoint, he shot them in cold blood in the back. Trespassing, illegal alien status, even burglary don't warrant a death sentence. Should've been tried for second degree murder.

[The Postmaster General]

Should've been tried for second degree murder.


Try first degree - the whole thing was heavily premeditated. He saw two burglars outside his house and confronted them with a gun after telling someone he was going to shoot them. That's about as premeditated as you can get.

[Badbird]

At first when I didn't know much about the story, I figured he was right in what he did.

But then I heard the 911 tapes, and this guy was clearly itching to kill someone. He was practically gleeful about it. The 911 dispatcher told him repeatedly not to go outside and that the police where on the way. But he's like "You hear this shotgun click?" (chambers shotgun) "I'm gonna kill 'em." (goes outside) "You move, you're dead!" (shoots, reloads, shoots, reloads, etc)

This guy flat out murdered them and it was premeditated. Maybe only by a minute or so, but he had every intention of killing them.

The police were right there. It's not like they would have gotten far. Plus it's just burglary. No one was threatened by them.

But, hey. It's Texas. They'll probably name a school after him.

[The Postmaster General]

But, hey. It's Texas. They'll probably name a school after him.


Or a border fence.

[Homyrrh]

That's insanity. This isn't the Old West. He was in absolutely no danger at the time, he had simply found an opportune excuse to get to kill someone. They weren't breaking into his home, they weren't armed, they didn't threaten him. When he had the drop on them, he didn't even attempt a citizen's arrest at gunpoint, he shot them in cold blood in the back. Trespassing, illegal alien status, even burglary don't warrant a death sentence. Should've been tried for second degree murder.
Haha, citizen's arrest. About the only time that would work is in this scenario where a geezer's packing a twelve. But I agree, it's murder in the second.

[The Postmaster General]

Haha, citizen's arrest. About the only time that would work is in this scenario where a geezer's packing a twelve. But I agree, it's murder in the second.


Why do you say it wasn't premeditated?

I guess you can say he wasn't trying to hide the murder, but I have no doubt he thought he would be vindicated.

[Homyrrh]

Why do you say it wasn't premeditated?

I guess you can say he wasn't trying to hide the murder, but I have no doubt he thought he would be vindicated.
Don't think he can be charged with murder one; the crime was an unfortunate product of circumstance that got carried away by Joe Horn.

[The Postmaster General]

Maybe Texas looks at leaving your property to shoot petty criminals in the back as "special circumstances", but I doubt every state does.

[Homyrrh]

Maybe Texas looks at leaving your property to shoot petty criminals in the back as "special circumstances", but I doubt every state does.
Well, that's the argument with the 'Castle Law'.

[Orson-Cockart]

I was won over by that wording right there. I'm demanding T-shirts with this slogan on cafe press within the week!

;) i'd buy one

[Orson-Cockart]

Are you fucking serious? Fire at will? What fucking planet do you live on? How is shooting two people in the back, killing them, justifiable homicide? That is not self defense.

People are forgetting that Papa Joe doesn't have hindsight. None of us know the true intentions of those trespassers. Should he have waited until some innocent person was made a victim? no. I dread to think what would have happend had Joe not stepped in.

[someguy]

There was a man walking on the other side of the street by my house today, I stabbed him to death because he parked his car on the wrong side of the street and he looked pretty shifty. I mean, none of us know what his true intentions are. What if he parked his car to go rape a woman?! I dread to think what would happen if I didn't stop him.

[RicochetShaw]

People are forgetting that Papa Joe doesn't have hindsight. None of us know the true intentions of those trespassers. Should he have waited until some innocent person was made a victim? no. I dread to think what would have happend had Joe not stepped in.



Well, we know what would have happened if Joe hadn't stepped in. They would've gotten away with his neighbor's loot, but no one would have died, because they were unarmed. Why would you dread to think about that? Does shooting two people in the back, in cold blood, not cause dread for you? Do you really think he's a hero, or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? There's no way a sane person could legitimately believe what you're purporting, so you're obviously nuts, or insincere.

[Silverload]

How can anyone listen to this 911 call can say he was justified!?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/01/burglary.shooting.ap/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

I can't believe he got away this. This 911 call clearly shows it wasn't self defense. He said he was going to kill them before he even left the house. He even delivered a one liner before shooting them. I'm a Texan and I'm very pro-gun, but this is insane.

[Orson-Cockart]

There was a man walking on the other side of the street by my house today, I stabbed him to death because he parked his car on the wrong side of the street and he looked pretty shifty. I mean, none of us know what his true intentions are. What if he parked his car to go rape a woman?! I dread to think what would happen if I didn't stop him.

There's a BIG difference there. Looking suspicious on public property is one thing, but looking suspicious while breaking into private property is quite another.

[Orson-Cockart]

Well, we know what would have happened if Joe hadn't stepped in. They would've gotten away with his neighbor's loot, but no one would have died, because they were unarmed. Why would you dread to think about that? Does shooting two people in the back, in cold blood, not cause dread for you? Do you really think he's a hero, or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? There's no way a sane person could legitimately believe what you're purporting, so you're obviously nuts, or insincere.

They were apparently on Joe's yard when he shot them. Holding his shotgun, he told them not to move; they moved, Joe shot them, he gave fair warning. I believe he's living with his family and grandkids. He's seen two men break into the neighbours house, he doesn't know exactly what's gone on in there, and now he sees the men on his front yard and moving toward him. If I was in his position -- and in a country where guns are legal -- i'd like to think i'd have it in me to fire at will.

[someguy]

There's a BIG difference there. Looking suspicious on public property is one thing, but looking suspicious while breaking into private property is quite another.

My point is that the 'what if?' scenario is one hell of a piss poor argument.

[The Postmaster General]

Maybe Texas looks at leaving your property to shoot petty criminals in the back as "special circumstances", but I doubt every state does.

Well, that's the argument with the 'Castle Law'.

I don't see how it applies. It wasn't his property, and they only even looked at him by his coercion.

I'm bringing up differences between states, and that even applies with trespassing. Here in Minnesota, you have to take multiple steps before you can shoot a trespasser, and additionally show reason to believe they planned to do something more than just jacking a DVD player.

Like I said, (see above).

[mel1ssa]

i have heard that the families of the two killed men are considering wrongful death suits against Horn.

and orson - i can't stop laughing at your choice of words.

You see strangers on your land, you don't know what their intentions are, you should fire at will.

i suppose that makes me a little sick. i do so enjoy your baiting.

[QUENTIN]

Census takers, mailmen, and girl scouts all tremble at the thought of Orson-Cockart and his body-strewn front lawn.

[mel1ssa]

Census takers, mailmen, and girl scouts all tremble at the thought of Orson-Cockart and his body-strewn front lawn.

lol. precisely.

[fixedMind]

Its a good thing that men like him are a dying breed. The bastard had no justification for taking those two lives into his own hands. His thought process belongs more in a black and white cartoon from the 1920's. These men may have been in this country illegally, but that still doesn't take away their right to life. Listening to the 911 call paints this picture in my mind. He goes out on his lawn, sees them walking away from his neighbors, says "move and your dead." They turn to run and he shoots them both in the back. How is this self-defense? This is the same type of racial inequity evident in Texas's modern courts, as it was back when segregation was the norm and a black man would be killed for almost no reason at all. That man deserves to be put in prison to explain himself to his victims countrymen.


Of course if it'd been a couple white kids from the suburbs who were bored during summer break, this guy would be spending the rest of his life in jail.

The sad truth is that he probably wouldn't have killed them if he had seen they were white.

[Orson-Cockart]

and orson - i can't stop laughing at your choice of words...i do so enjoy your baiting.
:D

[Homyrrh]

i have heard that the families of the two killed men are considering wrongful death suits against Horn.

and orson - i can't stop laughing at your choice of words.



i suppose that makes me a little sick. i do so enjoy your baiting.
Can you do that if you're an illegal?

[bigred760]

i have heard that the families of the two killed men are considering wrongful death suits against Horn.


I'm surprised they haven't already.

[mel1ssa]

Can you do that if you're an illegal?

apparently, one of them was engaged to a u.s. citizen.

i did a little more googling when i first saw this, because the 911 call was so damning. i was hoping to find more info about the grand jury's decision. unfortunately, no luck. here's a link (http://www.examiner.com/a-1468452~Activists_denounce_man_s_clearing_in_shoot ings.html)that describes some of the reaction of those there locally, including the fiancee.

[The Heart Collector]

Orson Cockart you are the crappiest troll I have ever seen, get out.

[MadsenOMC]

They were apparently on Joe's yard when he shot them. Holding his shotgun, he told them not to move; they moved, Joe shot them, he gave fair warning. I believe he's living with his family and grandkids. He's seen two men break into the neighbours house, he doesn't know exactly what's gone on in there, and now he sees the men on his front yard and moving toward him. If I was in his position -- and in a country where guns are legal -- i'd like to think i'd have it in me to fire at will.

You keep inventing facts to support your view. He did not give them fair warning. He shot them in the back. How is shooting two people in the back self defense?

Do you truly believe that the punishment for burglary should be death?

Did you even bother listening to the 911 call?

You would shoot at people who broke into your neighbor's house? I'm glad you don't live in this country. The world needs less people with that kind of mentality.

[Orson-Cockart]

Orson Cockart you are the crappiest troll I have ever seen, get out.

No, i'm no troll, my intention is not to bait anyone. I'm merely offering my opinion on the Joe Horn issue, just as many are doing. Perhaps you are upset at anyone who offers a differing opinion to your own. Surely it would be rather dull if we were all in agreement, and especially sad it would be if we were denying our true feelings in order to agree.

[Orson-Cockart]

You keep inventing facts to support your view. He did not give them fair warning. He shot them in the back. How is shooting two people in the back self defense?

No, i'm not inventing facts. Horn said, "move, and you're dead!". That's fair warning. They were in his front yard when the shooting took place. So no longer were those two ex-cons a threat to Horn's neighbour, they became a threat to Horn and his family.

Do you truly believe that the punishment for burglary should be death?

No, why would you assume I believed that? I've never said burglary should be punishable by death. In the moment, there is nobody who knew what those two ex-cons had planned. They deserved to be shot, not because they stole, but because they posed a threat. They were on Horn's front yard. He lives at home with his family, his grandkids. Defending your property and family certainly justifies firing at will, in my opinion.

[The Heart Collector]

No, i'm no troll, my intention is not to bait anyone. I'm merely offering my opinion on the Joe Horn issue, just as many are doing. Perhaps you are upset at anyone who offers a differing opinion to your own. Surely it would be rather dull if we were all in agreement, and especially sad it would be if we were denying our true feelings in order to agree.

When every figure of this forum, from staunch conservatives to libertarians to democrats to extreme leftists have all agreed on this issue and disagree with you, I think it's time to ponder just how good your argument is.

[MadsenOMC]

No, i'm not inventing facts. Horn said, "move, and you're dead!". That's fair warning. They were in his front yard when the shooting took place. So no longer were those two ex-cons a threat to Horn's neighbour, they became a threat to Horn and his family.



No, why would you assume I believed that? I've never said burglary should be punishable by death. In the moment, there is nobody who knew what those two ex-cons had planned. They deserved to be shot, not because they stole, but because they posed a threat. They were on Horn's front yard. He lives at home with his family, his grandkids. Defending your property and family certainly justifies firing at will, in my opinion.

So everyone who poses a threat deserves to be shot?

He was not defending his property. They posed no threat to him. He left his house to go shoot them. They were not going to do anything to him. He pursued them. Like I said, you are twisting what really happened to support your viewpoint.

Again, is shooting two people in the back self defense?

[Orson-Cockart]

When every figure of this forum, from staunch conservatives to libertarians to democrats to extreme leftists have all agreed on this issue and disagree with you, I think it's time to ponder just how good your argument is.

Whether an opposing view is shared by a majority or a minority it is irrelvant in determining my view. The content of this hypothetical single view is what I will respect, thought not necessarily agree with.

[Orson-Cockart]

So everyone who poses a threat deserves to be shot?

It's easy to say what he should have done when we have hindsight. In the moment he didn't know what they had done in his neighbours house, he didn't know if they were carrying a weapon. They were on his front yard. In that respect he was absolutely justified -- by my opinion and by the law of texas -- to fire at will.

Like I said, you are twisting what really happened to support your viewpoint.

Which part do you specifically believe i've "twisted"?

I've stated facts. Don't insult me because the facts don't support your view.

[Homyrrh]

Don't know about anyone else, but I don't argue with people like Orson anymore, and especially after stuff like this happens. This is for reasons that transcend forum debates, if you know what I mean...

[Homyrrh]

Whether an opposing view is shared by a majority or a minority it is irrelvant in determining my view. The content of this hypothetical single view is what I will respect, thought not necessarily agree with.
Eh, but a unifying issue is such a fiercely partisan political landscape is scarce and to be valued. If I agree with THC about something, i.e., then there's little doubt in my mind that it is definitively the moral high ground.

[MadsenOMC]

It's easy to say what he should have done when we have hindsight. In the moment he didn't know what they had done in his neighbours house, he didn't know if they were carrying a weapon. They were on his front yard. In that respect he was absolutely justified -- by my opinion and by the law of texas -- to fire at will.



Which part do you specifically believe i've "twisted"?

I've stated facts. Don't insult me because the facts don't support your view.

For the third time, is shooting people in the back self defense? And if Horn was in imminent danger as you claim, why did he shoot both of them in the back?

I am not insulting you. Knowingly or not (and I suspect you know what you are doing), you are misinterpreting what happened. The two men were not robbing Horn. They were not attempting to rob horn. He was repeatedly told to stay in his house and wait for police. He stated that he was going to kill them and then he did. That is premeditated murder. So you are twisting the facts to fit your argument.

Have you listened to the 911 tape?

[bigred760]

What I got from the 9-1-1 tapes was that he had every intent of going out there and shooting them.

If anything, that's premeditated.

[MadsenOMC]

Update:

Inquiry Sought After Shootings of 2 Intruders

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

HOUSTON (AP) — Representative Sheila Jackson Lee called on Sunday for a Congressional inquiry into what she said is a state of crisis within the legal system of Harris County, Tex.

Ms. Jackson Lee, Democrat of Texas, primarily cited a recent grand jury decision not to indict a suburban homeowner, Joe Horn, who shot to death two men he suspected of burglarizing a neighbor’s home.

“As far as many are concerned, justice was not rendered,” said Ms. Jackson Lee, speaking at news conference.

Ms. Jackson Lee said she just returned from a trip overseas, where the case had cast the Houston area in a negative light. She also said a 911 operator repeatedly told Mr. Horn to stay inside, and that he shot the men as they seemed to be in retreat.

She said her call for a federal inquiry was also prompted by a series of other cases and scandals involving criminal justice agencies in Harris County.

“With the many misgivings surrounding the Harris County legal system, it is fair to say that this local judicial system has been tarnished,” she said.

Ms. Jackson Lee also cited a controversy involving the Harris County Sheriff’s Office, where commanders were disciplined for sending racially insensitive e-mail messages, including some that mocked Islam.

Other issues have included the Harris County Jail, which is the subject of a federal civil rights investigation, and the resignation earlier this year of former District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal, who left office after sending explicit e-mail messages on his county computer.

She said she wanted the Congressional hearing to investigate possible systemic bias in the county justice system. She also called for a federal investigation of the sheriff’s department.



Also, as I said earlier, the author of the Castle Law in Texas has stated that the law was never intended to allow someone to shoot people on their neighbor's property or for robbing their neighbor.

[Badbird]

No, i'm not inventing facts. Horn said, "move, and you're dead!". That's fair warning. They were in his front yard when the shooting took place. So no longer were those two ex-cons a threat to Horn's neighbour, they became a threat to Horn and his family.

So in your world: burglary + trespassing = death penalty?

Plus he shot them in the back as they were running away. Joe must have been really frightened.

[Orson-Cockart]

So in your world: burglary + trespassing = death penalty?

If that's the only intention, no it wouldn't warrant the death penalty. However in the moment we don't have hindsight. Perhaps they were carrying a weapon. The issue is far more complicated than you want it to be.

Plus he shot them in the back as they were running away. Joe must have been really frightened.

Horn wasn't to know if the two ex-cons were carrying weapons.

He wasn't to know of their previous criminal record, they could have been serial killers for all he knew.

Two strangers went into his neighbours home, Horn had no idea what went on in there.

The two strangers then went on to his front yard to the home his family live.

There are no police present; Horn had called in, but wasn't to know when they would arrive.

Horn tells them not to move or he'll fire. They moved. I couldn't care less where the entry wound was. One thing's for sure two ex-cons were shot on Horn's property.

Fire at will, son! Fire. At. Will!

[MadsenOMC]

Fire at will, son! Fire. At. Will!

What a fucked up mindset. Where does this wild west, John Wayne attitude come from?

I'll ask again: How is shooting two people in the back self defense? If he shot them in the back, how much danger could he have been in?

Have you listened to the 911 tape?

You are making the issue more complicated than it actually was. He is told to stay inside. He is told that the police are on their way and won't be long. If he stays inside his house as he is told, no one dies or gets hurt. He went looking for blood. He went outside already having decided to shoot two people. That is premeditated murder.

[Orson-Cockart]

What a fucked up mindset. Where does this wild west, John Wayne attitude come from?

That's your opinion, it just isn't one I agree with. If I've seen a stranger go into the neighbours house, I don't know what happened in there, and now they are on my property, they could have a weapon for all I know so yeah i'd be firing at will too.

I'll ask again: How is shooting two people in the back self defense? If he shot them in the back, how much danger could he have been in?

You can keep asking again and again. I've already addressed that point to another poster. My advice is: read the thread first, that way the same questions wont be covered repeatedly.

Have you listened to the 911 tape?

yes.

You are making the issue more complicated than it actually was. He is told to stay inside. He is told that the police are on their way and won't be long. If he stays inside his house as he is told, no one dies or gets hurt. He went looking for blood. He went outside already having decided to shoot two people. That is premeditated murder.

Nope, 'fraid not. Yes he said he was going to shoot them, but I believe he was within his legal rights.

As for the intention of killing, I don't think that can be proven and in any case by definition it can't be murder, again he was within his legal rights, it's justifiable homicide.

I'm all for stepping aside and letting the police do their job, but if they aren't around then i'm all for people defending themself, their family, and their property. Those two ex-cons brought this on themself.

You're refusing to acknowledge many points, but the two main ones are:
(a) Horn didn't know if they were carrying a weapon.
(b) Horn wasn't aware of what happened in his neighbours house, other than the two men leaving the house with "loot", but other things could have happened in there.
Therefore they did pose a threat.

The issue is far more complex than you're willing to accept.

[MadsenOMC]

I'm all for stepping aside and letting the police do their job, but if they aren't around then i'm all for people defending themself, their family, and their property. Those two ex-cons brought this on themself.

You're refusing to acknowledge many points, but the two main ones are:
(a) Horn didn't know if they were carrying a weapon.
(b) Horn wasn't aware of what happened in his neighbours house, other than the two men leaving the house with "loot", but other things could have happened in there.
Therefore they did pose a threat.

The issue is far more complex than you're willing to accept.

But they did not pose a threat to him, his family or his property! They were not trying to break into Horn's house. They did not try to harm Horn or anyone in his family.

It does not matter if Horn didn't know whether or not they were carrying a weapon. They did not pose a threat to him, his family or his property. He sought them out and shot them in the back.

Shooting people in the back is in no way self defense. Horn had no right to act as judge, jury and executioner in that situation. No one tried to harm him. That is the bottom line. He decided to harm two people who did not try to harm him. It isn't that complicated. There really isn't any gray area here.

[Homyrrh]

I still say a coupel of warning shots would more than sufficed. What alien, illegal or otherwise, creeping out of a hosue with a couple hundred dollars of stuff is not going to drop it and get the FUCK out when a 12 gauge goes off?

[MadsenOMC]

I still say a coupel of warning shots would more than sufficed. What alien, illegal or otherwise, creeping out of a hosue with a couple hundred dollars of stuff is not going to drop it and get the FUCK out when a 12 gauge goes off?

More like what person, illegal or otherwise. And if their response to warning shots was to attack him, then it's an entirely different story. There was not a single justifiable reason to kill them. I find it sad and frightening that there are people in the world who believe murdering two people in that situation was the right response. Not the kind of people I want to associate with or live by.

[RicochetShaw]

Orson, I want to thank you for creating an unusual situation here. You see, I tend to get upset when some people are being as obnoxious as you are in conversations that I participate in. Not this time, though, because I know that I'm right here. But I'm giving up a little bit of my time for your benefit, so that perhaps you'll be enlightened. I'm doing this because I'm such a nice guy.



Perhaps they were carrying a weapon.

No, they weren't.




Two strangers went into his neighbours home, Horn had no idea what went on in there.

By his own admission on the police tape, Horn didn't even know the neighbors. I've had to break into my Uncle's house before because he was in New York and needed me to fax him a copy of his passport. I didn't know his neighbors... and if I were black and one of those neighbors were Joe Horn, I could have been shot for doing something perfectly legal.



Horn tells them not to move or he'll fire. They moved. I couldn't care less where the entry wound was.

What authority did he have to give such an ultimatum? Because one was on his property (the other was on the street)? Do you think, then, that any homeowner can give that ultimatum to anyone on their land? If a mailman is on my lawn can I order the mailman to do the same thing? Oh, that's right.... he had the right to do so because they robbed his NEIGHBOR's (who he didn't know) house? Sorry, but that's complete vigilantism. And you keep positing the fact that he didn't KNOW at the time that they were unarmed. Well you know what else he didn't know? That those men robbed the house. Sure, it looked like it... but then again, I'm sure it looked like I was robbing my Uncle's house during the Passport incident. I shudder to think what would happen if Horn were his neighbor.



One thing's for sure two ex-cons were shot on Horn's property.

Actually, only one was shot on his property. The other one was in the street. There goes your argument.... for at least one of the victims, anyway.




Fire at will, son! Fire. At. Will!

If you're not baiting, what do you call this?

[Homyrrh]

More like what person, illegal or otherwise. And if their response to warning shots was to attack him, then it's an entirely different story. There was not a single justifiable reason to kill them. I find it sad and frightening that there are people in the world who believe murdering two people in that situation was the right response. Not the kind of people I want to associate with or live by.
Yeah, but if I'm a Hispanic immigrant fully concious of the disdain a crazy ol' whitey dude packing a shooty toward me, I might have some extra incentive. And like you said, were I crazy enough to try something stupid and disarm the guy or attack him, then he has a legitimate self-defense plea.

[MadsenOMC]

Yeah, but if I'm a Hispanic immigrant fully concious of the disdain a crazy ol' whitey dude packing a shooty toward me, I might have some extra incentive.

Very true.

RicochetShaw, great post.

[Orson-Cockart]

Very true.

RicochetShaw, great post.

Actually it was a very poor post. They weren't "immigrant", they were more precisely - illegal immigrants, and shouldn't have been in the country in the first place.

[MadsenOMC]

They weren't "immigrant", they were more precisely - illegal immigrants, and shouldn't have been in the country in the first place.

Oh right I forgot that the punishment for being an illegal immigrant in your world is death. Clearly illegal immigrants are only 3/5 of a normal human being, therefore murdering them is a fitting punishment for their crime.

And here I was hoping you'd respond to his post, not merely call it "poor." I guess that is the best argument you have at this point.

[Orson-Cockart]

Orson, I want to thank you for creating an unusual situation here. You see, I tend to get upset when some people are being as obnoxious as you are in conversations that I participate in. Not this time, though, because I know that I'm right here. But I'm giving up a little bit of my time for your benefit, so that perhaps you'll be enlightened. I'm doing this because I'm such a nice guy.

I'm not being obnoxious; i'm merely expressing my view like others are doing. Presumably you find me obnoxious because i'm not in agreement with you on this issue.



[regarding the issue of the two ex-cons potentially carrying weapons] No, they weren't.

I didn't say they were. I mentioned that in the moment mr Horn didn't know if they were or not. With hindsight the picture is a lot different. However in the moment mr Horn didn't know exactly what they had done in his neighbour's house. Horn also didn't know if they were carrying weaponry on their person, and for the sake of semantics i'm refering to any weapon on their person, a knife in their pocket or gun kept out of sight etc.



By his own admission on the police tape, Horn didn't even know the neighbors. I've had to break into my Uncle's house before because he was in New York and needed me to fax him a copy of his passport. I didn't know his neighbors... and if I were black and one of those neighbors were Joe Horn, I could have been shot for doing something perfectly legal.

That's a good point. But they exited the house running with "loot" and ended up on Horn's land.




What authority did he have to give such an ultimatum? Because one was on his property (the other was on the street)? Do you think, then, that any homeowner can give that ultimatum to anyone on their land? If a mailman is on my lawn can I order the mailman to do the same thing? Oh, that's right.... he had the right to do so because they robbed his NEIGHBOR's (who he didn't know) house? Sorry, but that's complete vigilantism. And you keep positing the fact that he didn't KNOW at the time that they were unarmed. Well you know what else he didn't know? That those men robbed the house. Sure, it looked like it... but then again, I'm sure it looked like I was robbing my Uncle's house during the Passport incident. I shudder to think what would happen if Horn were his neighbor.

Would you have gone onto the property of someone you didn't know? those two ex-cons did. They were given an ultimatum, they didn't listen, they got shot. They shouldn't have been in the country, let alone on private property.



Actually, only one was shot on his property. The other one was in the street. There goes your argument.... for at least one of the victims, anyway.

They were both on his land when he gave them the ultimatum. The ball's in your court, hot shot.


If you're not baiting, what do you call this?
Expressing a view like others are doing. Perhaps you consider anyone who disagrees with you to be a troll.

[Badbird]

Horn wasn't to know if the two ex-cons were carrying weapons.

There are no police present; Horn had called in, but wasn't to know when they would arrive.

Regardless if they had weapons or not, they were running away. They probably had no idea Horn was even there until he said "You move you're dead."

Plus the police did show up right away. Almost as soon as he shot them.

[Orson-Cockart]

Oh right I forgot that the punishment for being an illegal immigrant in your world is death. Clearly illegal immigrants are only 3/5 of a normal human being, therefore murdering them is a fitting punishment for their crime.


Nope, I never said illegal immigration warrants the death penalty. But they shouldn't have been in the country.

[Orson-Cockart]

They probably had no idea Horn was even there until he said "You move you're dead."

Can you prove they had no idea, or are you speculating, i.e guessing.

Plus the police did show up right away. Almost as soon as he shot them.

That's another way of saying the police arrived after the incident. But you go ahead and claim it was "almost as soon".

[MadsenOMC]

Here is an editorial that carefully lays out the facts of this incident. Note that Horn himself is guilt-ridden and said he would not go it again.

July 3

Houston Chronicle on Joe Horn:

Texas tradition and the letter of the law protected 62-year-old Joe Horn this week, when a grand jury declined to charge him for killing two burglars.

But the outcome shouldn't make other Texas homeowners feel safer. Instead, the shootings show the many reasons why citizens must not be judge and executioner in the courthouse of their own minds.

Exhibit A, of course, is the pair of pellet-riddled corpses, shot in the back and sprawled on Horn's neighbors' lawns. One can be disgusted by this taking of life without having to summon a bit of sympathy for the burglars.

Death by shooting is an occupational hazard for burglars in Texas. Surely Diego Ortiz and Hernando Riascos Torres, raised in the violent streets of Cali, Colombia, calculated its possibility.

Death, however, is not the punishment Texans or Americans prescribe for burglary. By taking the law in his hands, Horn robbed his own law-abiding community of its right to investigate crimes, prosecute criminals and mete out justice.

This loss is more than just academic: Others, including Horn's neighbors, suffered much more at the criminals' hands and deserved a chance to face them in court.

Meanwhile, those who applaud Horn's action should ask if they really want to live in a state in which homeowners can summarily execute burglars caught stealing from someone else's house. Horn himself regrets his action and says he doesn't want to see it repeated.

Texas law recognizes the right to self-defense and the common law that a person's home is his castle. That, however, recognizes no right for Texans to shoot mere trespassers who pose no threat to life and limb. When it meets in January, the Legislature should quickly clarify whom homeowners can shoot, and under what circumstances.

Make no mistake: Horn created a dangerous confrontation without adequate reason. He did it, in fact, in open defiance of reason. While some mistakes emerge from confusion and a moral vacuum, Horn's erupted during a discussion with a patient, attentive 911 dispatcher who had sent help.

The operator, who grasped the seriousness of the events and struggled to defuse them, kept Horn on the phone long enough to tell him 13 times to stay in the house. In language succinct enough even for a hysteric to hear, the dispatcher explained why. "Ain't no property worth shooting someone over," the operator said. "You're going to get yourself shot."

But Horn, showing bravado, said, "You want to make a bet? I'll kill them."

Notwithstanding his later claims, Horn did not mention he was afraid for his life. Nor did he say he was gathering information for police. Instead, he said, "I'm not gonna let them get away with it." He cited, down to the very date of its implementation, a new statute letting Texans defend others' property with deadly force.

Horn was right about one thing. Texas' new "Castle Law" did protect him, even if it was not designed for cases such as his. Horn was also insulated by Texas tradition, which favors property owners who can claim they killed in self-defense.

But should we really feel safer because people with Horn's judgment are allowed to act on impulse?

What if Horn accidentally had killed a pair of teenage boys engaged in an illegal graduation prank? What if one of the intruders had been a mentally ill, wounded or economically desperate war veteran, committing his first crime?

The final exhibit in this disturbing case is Horn himself. From the beginning, he has been ravaged by remorse at killing two human beings. Distraught at the pain his acts brought on his daughter and grandchildren, he has said he would not do it again. His neighbors, the real victims, have been notably silent in public but might also feel wounded by the violence Horn unleashed in their name.

Trying to explain how a peaceful computer program manager could have caused this fiasco, as Horn's lawyer put it, Horn has come up with an odd justification. It wasn't Horn, really, who did it. "He is absolutely not the person you hear on that 911 tape," friend and attorney Tom Lambright said. Added Horn this week, "For 61 years I was never a vigilante. Why would I be a vigilante over this incident?"

Of course it was Horn on the tape, and of course he was a vigilante that day. Plenty of decent people, their quality of life eroded by rampant crime, feel transformed in such moments, their brains flooding with adrenaline, fear and perhaps too strong a desire to be a hero under new Texas law.

Hearing ceaseless reports about crime on the news, then seeing it occur near your own home, naturally stirs up primal, destructive impulses. But no one is safer when Texas enables people like Joe Horn to act on those impulses.

[The Heart Collector]

Actually it was a very poor post. They weren't "immigrant", they were more precisely - illegal immigrants, and shouldn't have been in the country in the first place.

Please leave this forum.

[notchreturns]

With Orson's logic, I would have had every right to have shot Horn when he was aiming his shotgun at the two men then Horn would have when he saw the two men entering his neighbors house.

I mean like Horn I was protecting something (the two men) and from all I know he was some lunatic shooting up the neighborhood.

BTW:

Orson is obviously baiting.

Or perhaps his beliefs really are just that out of whack.

[Orson-Cockart]

Please leave this forum.

No, I wont be doing that. I'm entitled to my say like everyone else here.

[Orson-Cockart]

With Orson's logic, I would have had every right to have shot Horn when he was aiming his shotgun at the two men then Horn would have when he saw the two men entering his neighbors house.

No, that wouldn't fit in with my logic, nor does it comply with Texas law. The issue wasn't taking place on your property.

I mean like Horn I was protecting something (the two men) and from all I know he was some lunatic shooting up the neighborhood.

Your situation wouldn't be backed up by the law. It was happening on Horn's land. Feel free to call the police and observe what's happening; unless the situation strolls onto your land, butt out.

BTW:

Orson is obviously baiting.

Or perhaps his beliefs really are just that out of whack.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I consider both possibilities to be incorrect. All i've been doing is expressing my view, I feel sorry for those who have taken offense, you have my pity for your inability to tolerate a different view point.

[MadsenOMC]

As the editorial I just posted clearly points out, Horn himself regrets his actions and would not repeat them. He was wrong, plain and simple. Even the man himself believes that. Not once did he express any fear to the 911 operator and he was never in any danger. He made the decision to shoot them and then went outside and did it, even though they posed no danger to him, his property or his family. These are all indisputable facts.

[Orson-Cockart]

As the editorial I just posted clearly points out, Horn himself regrets his actions and would not repeat them. He was wrong, plain and simple. Even the man himself believes that. Not once did he express any fear to the 911 operator and he was never in any danger. He made the decision to shoot them and then went outside and did it, even though they posed no danger to him, his property or his family. These are all indisputable facts.

The man can critique his own actions as he pleases. However, his view isn't necessarily correct and most certainly affected by hindsight, which he did not possess in the moment the incident took place. I believe he was right in his actions.

As for failing to "express any fear", this is down to interpretation. Whether or not he felt affraid, only he would know.

As for "he was never in any danger", this is based upon hindsight. Of course it would be wrong to fire at an unarmed man/men. In the moment, however, nobody could know if the men possessed weaponry. They were on his land. He gave them a warning -- he would fire if they moved. If they had been law abiding citizens then they wouldn't have been killed, which isn't to say trespassing warrants the death penalty. With hindsight we can assume the two ex-cons merely wanted to steal, though they may have done more had they not been shot; In the moment nobody could know their true intentions. Therefore, by the unkowing of their intentions or if they possessed weaponry, they did indeed pose a threat whilst they were on private property.

[MadsenOMC]

You are ignoring the facts of the situation as presented in the editorial. It is no longer about your opinion. You are wrong about this one.

He was never in danger. That has nothing to do with hindsight. Is it fact, plain and simple. He told the 911 operator that he was going to shoot them, then he walked outside and did it. Simple as that. He was not in any danger from them. That isn't debatable.

I think you need to read that editorial again, especially the parts I put in bold just for you. You need to familiarize yourself with what actually happened. You can't seem to grasp that Horn was never in any danger, and that that is not my opinion based on hindsight, it is an indisputable fact based on what actually happened.

[notchreturns]

Um this was happening on his neighbors land.

A neighbor he admited in the phone call he had never even met these people.

[Orson-Cockart]

You are ignoring the facts of the situation as presented in the editorial. It is no longer about your opinion. You are wrong about this one.

No i'm not ignoring the facts. There are different views regarding what Horn did, my opinion counts just as yours does. You believe i'm wrong? well I believe i'm right, and that you're wrong.

He was never in danger. That has nothing to do with hindsight. Is it fact, plain and simple. He told the 911 operator that he was going to shoot them, then he walked outside and did it. Simple as that. He was not in any danger from them. That isn't debatable.

Hindsight is a huge part of this issue. Those two ex-criminals were on his land -- after they had been seen breaking into the neighbours house -- and he didn't know if they had concealed weapons. Therefore he was within his rights to assume they posed a threat. That isn't debatable.

I think you need to read that editorial again, especially the parts I put in bold just for you. You need to familiarize yourself with what actually happened. You can't seem to grasp that Horn was never in any danger, and that that is not my opinion based on hindsight, it is an indisputable fact based on what actually happened.

I've read the facts, from various newspaper articles.

You only know they didn't have weapons because the investigation that followed the incident, i.e with hindsight you know they weren't in possession of weapons. It's utter stupidity to deny that hindsight features in your understanding that those two ex-criminals posed no threat.

[Orson-Cockart]

Um this was happening on his neighbors land.

A neighbor he admited in the phone call he had never even met these people.

The burglary happened on his neighbours land, that's correct, well done. The incident involving Horn giving the two men an ultimatum occurred while both men were on Horn land ;)

[Scarfather]

I like that there is actually someone in this thread basically saying that murdering in cold blood is A-OK as long as it's an illegal immigrant.

Listen to this tape. He has his shotgun in his hands while the burglars are still on his neighbor's property. He is actively requesting to murder them while they are still on his neighbor's property. He is telling the officer that he has full intention to murder them before they are even out of the house. He states that he doesn't even know his neighbors. The officer tells him to stay inside the house. He is not in any immediate danger at any point. They are not moving towards his house at any time. He INITIATES the confrontation and MURDERS them in COLD BLOOD. "I'll going to KILL THEM." He has every intention to murder them before he even leaves the house.

Do you live behind a magic sheet of bullshit glass that changes everything in the world to fit a barbaric, racist state of mind?

[MadsenOMC]

Orson, we are not debating something like the war in Iraq, with each of us having our own view. This is about facts. It is factual that Horn was not in any danger. Basically I am saying the world is not flat and you are arguing with me.

You can't go around shooting anyone you think might pose a threat. That is total insanity. He did not have to leave his house. He ignored direct orders not to. He chose to leave his house, where he was safe. If they had tried to break into his home, then this would all be a different story. But they did not do that.

[Orson-Cockart]

I like that there is actually someone in this thread basically saying that murdering in cold blood is A-OK as long as it's an illegal immigrant.

No one here has made such a statement. You're seemingly writing statements that have arisen from your own mind and wrongfully attributing them to others.

[Orson-Cockart]

Orson, we are not debating something like the war in Iraq, with each of us having our own view.

That is correct, we're not discussing the War in Iraq, or any other war scenario.


This is about facts. It is factual that Horn was not in any danger.

Wow! are you being a troll? or do you honestly not realise that only with hindsight do you know those two ex-cons weren't carrying concealed weapons?

We're debating whether or not Horn was right in his actions. This issue is subjective.


You can't go around shooting anyone you think might pose a threat.

Totally agree. I don't believe anyone here has said that people should go around shooting others who are deemed a threat. That isn't the issue at hand.


He did not have to leave his house. He ignored direct orders not to. He chose to leave his house, where he was safe.

He didn't have to leave his house, that's right, but he chose to. He's within his right to leave his house. He ignored a police request to not leave his house. Even if an officer says he's giving an order, the police can only enforce the law. Horn didn't break the law. Horn isn't to know that he and his family will be safe at home. The two ex-cons could have targeted his house next. They were on his property. Only with hindsight do you know they weren't carrying weapons; in the moment nobody could know. They were on his land.

If they had tried to break into his home, then this would all be a different story. But they did not do that.

You're speculating on what they wouldn't have done. By the same token allow me to speculate that they might have targeted his house next. They were on his land.

[MadsenOMC]

They were leaving with whatever they took from the neighbor, not going towards his house. You agree that he did not have to leave his house. He was safe in his house, armed with a shotgun and behind a locked door. Or is a person somehow not safe in that scenario? I don't know how that's possible.

I don't know how a reasonable person can believe that shooting two unarmed people in the back with no warning of any kind is self defense and justifiable. I feel sorry for a person like that.

Don't call me a troll. Hindsight is not a factor here. He chose to leave the safety of his house and go & shoot them. No one forced him to leave his house. He was not in any danger while he sat in his locked house with a loaded shotgun.

[SpoonMan999]

They were leaving with whatever they took from the neighbor, not going towards his house. You agree that he did not have to leave his house. He was safe in his house, armed with a shotgun and behind a locked door. Or is a person somehow not safe in that scenario? I don't know how that's possible.

I don't know how a reasonable person can believe that shooting two unarmed people in the back with no warning of any kind is self defense and justifiable. I feel sorry for a person like that.

Don't call me a troll. Hindsight is not a factor here. He chose to leave the safety of his house and go & shoot them. No one forced him to leave his house. He was not in any danger while he sat in his locked house with a loaded shotgun.

Not that I'm siding with Orson here but...if they broke into someone's house then obviously the locked door isn't much of an obstacle for them. Also, he did give a warning just not much time to react.

[MadsenOMC]

Not that I'm siding with Orson here but...if they broke into someone's house then obviously the locked door isn't much of an obstacle for them. Also, he did give a warning just not much time to react.

The loaded shotgun is an obstacle, though, I imagine. A pretty huge one. A person standing at their front door with a loaded shotgun probably isn't in much danger.

What was his warning? The first shot?

[MadsenOMC]

I didn't listen to the clip, despite what was said I believe he needs to go to jail, but someone previously said he shouted "Move and your dead" or something along those lines. If that wasn't in there then my mistake.

No you're right I think he did say that but he said it while firing, so it really wasn't a warning.

[SpoonMan999]

No you're right I think he did say that but he said it while firing, so it really wasn't a warning.

Ah, well either way they should hit him with a brick and toss him in jail.

[SpoonMan999]

I didn't listen to the clip, despite what was said I believe he needs to go to jail, but someone previously said he shouted "Move and your dead" or something along those lines. If that wasn't in there then my mistake.

[MadsenOMC]

Ah, well either way they should hit him with a brick and toss him in jail.

We definitely agree on that SpoonMan.

[SpoonMan999]

We definitely agree on that SpoonMan.

Even on the brick part? Am I bringing out the violent side of one of our resident hippies?

Mean no offence on the hippy remark just making a joke.

[MadsenOMC]

Even on the brick part? Am I bringing out the violent side of one of our resident hippies?

Mean no offence on the hippy remark just making a joke.

LOL. That made me laugh. For real. I used to be around hippies all the time and they drove me crazy. Can't stand them (a generalization of course).

[SpoonMan999]

LOL. That made me laugh. For real. I used to be around hippies all the time and they drove me crazy. Can't stand them (a generalization of course).

I only say it because of your opposition to war and the death penalty and all that other hippy crap lol. Don't you know murder is fun?

Kidding of course. I know most of you will understand I'm joking but I don't want to fuel the fires of those who want to jump down my throat at every turn *cough*Quentin*cough*

[MadsenOMC]

I know you are kidding. But in reality I could not be much further from a hippie if I tried. For one thing I have excellent personal hygiene.

[SpoonMan999]

For one thing I have excellent personal hygiene.

Touche.

[Homyrrh]

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s278/nnnnnnnicoleeeee/hippies.jpg


Definitely don't recommened searching "gay hippies" on Google Images...

[MadsenOMC]

Mom, dad, why didn't you ever show me this picture?

[SpoonMan999]

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s278/nnnnnnnicoleeeee/hippies.jpg


Definitely don't recommened searching "gay hippies" on Google Images...

Dear god my eyes!

[SpoonMan999]

Mom, dad, why didn't you ever show me this picture?

Because when daddy's gone...he wants you to remember him with pants.

[Homyrrh]

Mom, dad, why didn't you ever show me this picture?
before this gets closed out, I should say I once found like eight dozen Grateful Dead concert tickets in my old man's shoebox years ago. Tried not to make too many judgements.

[Orson-Cockart]

. Don't call me a troll. Hindsight is not a factor here.

I didn't call you a troll; I asked if you were being one.

Hindsight is a factor, however much you wish it wasn't. You only know Horn wasn't under threat because of the investigation that followed the incident. In the moment there was no way for Horn to know whether or not the two men were in possession of concealed weapons. He was right to assume he was under threat. He was right to give the ultimatum. He was right to shoot.

[Orson-Cockart]

The loaded shotgun is an obstacle, though, I imagine. A pretty huge one. A person standing at their front door with a loaded shotgun probably isn't in much danger.

Nobody can be certain.

What was his warning? The first shot?

Familiarise yourself with the facts. Horn gave a verbal ultimatum. The two ex-cons did not comply.

[MadsenOMC]

Familiarise yourself with the facts.

Excellent advice. You need to give a try in this situation.

Horn was on the phone with the 911 operator for an extended period of time. He never expressed any fear. He never said he was in danger. He would have done these things if he was fearful or in danger at any point. But he wasn't. You know why? Because someone walking around with a loaded shotgun is not fearful of anything!

If you give someone a warning and immediately shoot them in the back, as Horn did, it negates the warning. It was pointless. He never even gave them a chance.

[Orson-Cockart]

.He never said he was in danger. He would have done these things if he was fearful or in danger at any point. But he wasn't.

You can only speculate, i.e guess, as to Horn's state of mind. You don't know if he was affraid.

You know why? Because someone walking around with a loaded shotgun is not fearful of anything!

You presume this is the case. Perhaps the need for a weapon is indicative of fear.

If you give someone a warning and immediately shoot them in the back, as Horn did, it negates the warning. It was pointless. He never even gave them a chance.

He gave them a warning, which they didn't comply with, then he shot them. The chance was there.

Look, we're going round in circles mate. We're both repeating ourselves. We've left our views on the table. We're unlikely to agree with one another. So unless there's something new, I don't see the point.

[MadsenOMC]

Look, we're going round in circles mate. We're both repeating ourselves. We've left our views on the table. We're unlikely to agree with one another. So unless there's something new, I don't see the point.

Agreed, though we must have listened to entirely different 911 tapes for you to draw your conclusions. How someone is giving people a chance by shooting them in the fucking back is beyond me. I have learned a valuable lesson from all this. I also hope no one ever makes the mistake of walking on your property while you are home. I think your entire mindset is really fucked up and indicative of serious moral shortcomings.

[Scarfather]

No one here has made such a statement. You're seemingly writing statements that have arisen from your own mind and wrongfully attributing them to others.

They weren't "immigrant", they were more precisely - illegal immigrants, and shouldn't have been in the country in the first place.

Perhaps I misinterpreted this post, because given that you are using the fact that they were illegal immigrants as part of your defense of a man who murdered two men in cold blood, it would be logical to assume that you are condoning murdering two men in cold blood if they are illegal immigrants.

Silly me.

You'll have to excuse me if everything you post comes patently with huge fucking troths of salt, when my first impression of you was Cockart racist fun hour:

http://www.joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121419

And accordingly, since I can't take anything you say seriously, I leave this thread.

[notchreturns]

I didn't call you a troll; I asked if you were being one.

Hindsight is a factor, however much you wish it wasn't. You only know Horn wasn't under threat because of the investigation that followed the incident. In the moment there was no way for Horn to know whether or not the two men were in possession of concealed weapons. He was right to assume he was under threat. He was right to give the ultimatum. He was right to shoot.

As I said earlier...

The same situation could apply for me if I was walking down the street and saw Horn shooting two men.

I didn't know if I was in danger or not, though the fact that he just killed two men would lead me to believe so.

If I had a gun on me, or in my car, I would have had the same right to shoot. I just saw this man commit murder, obviously an act more harsh Horn saw the 2 men commit.

Like Horn I was protecting myself and my neighbors. The only difference is it was obvious Horn was armed, unlike the 2 men.

I would have had every right to take action.

I hope you would be protecting my rights as well.

[Badbird]

I don't care how many times you tell me the sky is blue.

I know the facts. It's fucking red.

[Cop No. 633]

I don't care how many times you tell me the sky is blue.

I know the facts. It's fucking red.

Ah, great, did Joe Horn just shoot the sky? I fucking knew it. I knew that's why the sky looked different today.

[someguy]

I just want to point out to people who are still trying to convince this Cockart guy that he's wrong (which he is) that he said this in another thread (http://www.joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2787345#post2787345) about Hollywood disliking Mike Myers:

Mike Myers is of British descent, and of a Protestant background.

Steve Carell, is of Jewish descent, but also has some Italian heritage.

hmmmmm, I wonder why the Jewish owned American media are supporting Carell.

Is this board at a point where we have started to tolerate this disgusting shit?

[Orson-Cockart]

I just want to point out to people who are still trying to convince this Cockart guy that he's wrong (which he is) that he said this in another thread (http://www.joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2787345#post2787345) about Hollywood disliking Mike Myers:



Is this board at a point where we have started to tolerate this disgusting shit?

You believe i'm wrong, you're entitled to your opinion. You seem to have your knickers in quite a twist ;)

As for the other issue, what exactly did you find disgusting about it? I would have thought that someone with such a disrespectful entry to their "favourite movie" section wouldn't be so easily offended.

[cuddleworthy]

This is a fairly common custom in places in middle of nowhere, regardless of state law. My friend in North Carolina does a similar thing when his neighbors are gone. Same goes with a relative in Alberta and another in Alaska. When you live in middle of nowhere, these actions of self-defense of another person's property makes more sense than local law enforcement (when they're obviously late most of the time). Now in a big city, this would be way out of line. But in a smaller area isolated from a large borough, it makes sense to me.

Also, state law is state law. If you have a problem, it needs to be revised. Not from the feds, but from the state. A person from New York cannot take action of this, because he simply doesn't live there. It has merit, but cannot overpower a citizen of Texas' opinion.

Self defense must be allowed. Police don't always arrive at ETA. You see strangers on your land, you don't know what their intentions are, you should fire at will. Don't want to get shot? don't trespass. Horn informed the police, but they weren't present at time of the incident, so he stepped up to the plate. Who knows what they would have done had mr Horn not got involved. They shouldn't have been in the country, they certainly shouldn't have been trespassing on private property. Good for Joe Horn, a true hero.

A great comment. I also find it ironic that a citizen of the U.K knows more about property and state rights and has more common sense than most American users. And a lot of you guys are going to vote this election. It's scary.

[JCPhoenix]

I was originally going to try to respond to some of Orson-Cockart's comments about this issue but after having read through this entire thread and the two threads other schmoes have linked, I've decided it's not worth it considering the borderline racist undertones that are present in many of his posts.

Other than that, my viewpoint is pretty much the same as the majority viewpoint here - I think it's disgusting and sad that this guy is getting away with murder like this. And honestly, I don't buy his apology especially when it's so clear from the 911 tape how much he tried to cover things up...from calmly saying he was going to shoot them, saying "Bang, you're dead" and shooting them and then coming back in and "freaking out" to the 911 operator saying "I had no choice". The way he flipped on that was laughable. The statement he makes to the 911 operator when he comes back in reeks to me of him trying to cover his tracks and cover up the fact that he WANTED to go out there, that he WANTED to shoot them more than something he said out of fear.

But on another topic that Orson-Cockart brought up - someguy's favorite movie is clearly a joke whereas the things Orson's been saying have been far less clear...if your comments were made in jest, then you're pretty much trolling. If they're not, then you have some serious racist issues that you need to sort out.

And btw someguy, I thought I was the only one who heard of that movie :p. This is completely off-topic but since it's been mentioned...was your "favorite movie" actually entertaining in any way or was it as horrible as I imagine it would be?

This fest was supposed to open originally with a movie we've only nicknamed as JCSR. So disturbed were we by the cover of this film and its actual name when we saw it at the videostore that we have given it a nickname to prevent people from being offended when they hear us talking about it. We didn't buy the movie...but one of my friend's friend did (it was pretty expensive too!) and we were hoping to kick off the festival with this sure-to-be masterpiece (actually, we really only expected to watch 20 minutes of it before turning it off considering it looks like the worst piece of shit ever). But he apparently leaves for Vegas tomorrow so that's a no-go. Which is probably a good thing cause I'm sure we'd go to hell for watching this film.

[MadsenOMC]

When you live in middle of nowhere, these actions of self-defense of another person's property makes more sense than local law enforcement (when they're obviously late most of the time).


A great comment. I also find it ironic that a citizen of the U.K knows more about property and state rights and has more common sense than most American users. And a lot of you guys are going to vote this election. It's scary.

Horn does not live in the middle of nowhere. If he did, he would not have a neighbor so close to him, would he?

Are you going to vote in this election?

[MadsenOMC]

You believe i'm wrong, you're entitled to your opinion. You seem to have your knickers in quite a twist ;)

As for the other issue, what exactly did you find disgusting about it? I would have thought that someone with such a disrespectful entry to their "favourite movie" section wouldn't be so easily offended.

Wow, Orson, the Jewish owned American media? You are a racist bigot and I can't believe you are allowed to post here. If we all asked nicely, would you go away?

[RicochetShaw]

This is a fairly common custom in places in middle of nowhere, regardless of state law. Now in a big city, this would be way out of line. But in a smaller area isolated from a large borough, it makes sense to me.


This was in Pasadena, Texas, a suburb that borders the city of Houston, the fourth largest city in America. Pasadena itself has a population of 152,968. Typical of large Texas cities, Houston has large sprawl beyond it's own city limits, and this creates the Houston Metropolitan area known as Greater Houston, where most of the population resides. Pasadena is located smack dab in the middle of this metropolitan area.

City of Pasadena on the Texas map...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/TXMap-doton-Pasadena.PNG


The Houston Metro...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/HSB_MSA.png


Pasadena is far from being "in the middle of nowhere." Quite conversely, it's in the middle of the sixth-largest metropolitan area in the United States.


If you need further visual aid, here's a youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mei_cSyeqg8) of a protest in Horn's neighborhood, so you can see just how un-rural the place is.



And a lot of you guys are going to vote this election. It's scary.


Says the person who's clearly the uninformed one.

[The Postmaster General]

When you live in middle of nowhere, these actions of self-defense of another person's property makes more sense than local law enforcement (when they're obviously late most of the time). Now in a big city, this would be way out of line. But in a smaller area isolated from a large borough, it makes sense to me.


No, wait times for the police are longer in big cities because they have higher crime rates, stretching the police and forcing them to prioritize calls. In the suburbs or rural areas, you can get the cops at domestic abuse call within 5 minutes, whereas, in a big city, you might have to wait several hours to file a burglary report. Of course places with extremely high concentrations will have officers assigned to patrol these areas, but even then an active burglary in process would probably take top priority.

The custom you are referring to is that of an American Tradition of keeping guns for protection. I hardly doubt your friends shoot people on a regular basis. Keeping guns for protection isn't the issue being addressed, it was the level of force used and whether it was for just cause. If you want to test the validity of what I'm saying, ask all your friends if they plan to use their guns for something more like shooting people breaking into the neighbors house, or for something more like preventing a violent attack on their home.

Also, just as a thought - there's probably a lot of schmoes from the UK, or Australia or wherever you said you were from, that take offense to being told it's ironic that they have more common sense than Americans.

[mel1ssa]

You are a racist bigot and I can't believe you are allowed to post here. If we all asked nicely, would you go away?

what's with this latest trend to ask others to leave the forum?

is that where we're going? toward a place where we get so frustrated that we just say 'leave'?

i'm not speaking up for orson per se, rather for the trend in general (i'm sure you've all seen the other recent calls for exile). it's BS.

[Orson-Cockart]

But on another topic that Orson-Cockart brought up - someguy's favorite movie is clearly a joke

What was written may be the source of laughter for the two of you, but it doesn't negate the fact that it will be considered offensive by many. If you're happy to dish it out, you have to learn how to take it. We can't have a society where some people are eligible for attack, while one group is protected.

[Orson-Cockart]

Wow, Orson, the Jewish owned American media? You are a racist bigot and I can't believe you are allowed to post here. If we all asked nicely, would you go away?

I'm allowed to post here, I haven't said anything remotely racist.

Alot of the U.S media is owned by Jews. Nothing racist about that, merely an observation. It's well known that Jews are major players in the U.S media, especially in Hollywood.

I don't see why you're getting your knickers in a twist. Perhaps we've become a society where the mere mention of the word "jew" is met with cries of anti-semitism.

I'm having a bacon sandwich for breakfast, perhaps that makes me anti-semitic too.

[Orson-Cockart]

Also, just as a thought - there's probably a lot of schmoes from the UK, or Australia or wherever you said you were from, that take offense to being told it's ironic that they have more common sense than Americans.

I did. But unfortunately he could be right, that is if the people vote for Brown and his merry band of Marxists -- selling G.B to an E.U we have no voice over. Our left-of-center party is almost becoming far left. If the Conservatives are voted for, my faith will be restored.