Issues I had With The Dark Knight - SPOILERS

[thebzzisback]

I loved the movie, however I felt frustrated at a few points in arguably Nolan's masterpiece.

1) I understand why they swapped out katie holmes for Maggie Gylenhaal but i felt they completely altered the character. Rachel Dawes transformed from this more quiet, stern and serious Asst DA to this strong, flirtatious love interest. If anything it should be the other way around given the mood and tone of The Dark Knight. Not only did they switch actresses, arguably for the better, but they killed her.

2) The Batmobile aka The Tumbler, judging by the name alone it should atleast be able to tumble. The batmobile shoots missles, has amazing security features and is the seemingly-indestructible vehicle. It did take a tumble in this film and it became an irreprable wreck. Don't know if they are looking to transform the vehicle into the classic version or a new model but it did not suit the tumbler's demise.

3) If Morgan Freeman's character Lucious Fox knows Wayne is batman then why did Wayne still have to talk with the voice of batman?

4) With the Joker still alive and his quote to assume the joker will remain a prevalent vilian in future films, will he be re-casted or written out. I believe the story has not yet been finished and they would tarnish the character and ground-breaking pith perfect performance by Ledger with neglecting the role in future films.

5) The final issue I had was that the first film had this continuously flowing story-line which worked perfectly, which Nolan did not utilize for the first 45 minutes. The opening scene was amazing, but the 45 min that followed were 10 seconds clips compiled over and over until the story-line resumed the continuous flow towards the height of the story.

Overall I loved this movie and it is deffinitely on my top movies of the year list. Do not think that these 5 points I made give it a negative connotation, they are simply points that frustrated me as a fan of the series. I still give the film a 9.5 out of 10.

[DarkKnight81]

Dude I'm one of the biggest Dark Knight fans on this site... but seriously? You had to create a thread based solely on your problems with the movie?

[zombievictim]

The New Thread and Post Reply button are just too close eh?

[FLAME_ON]

Hahahahahaha another thread?! Lets start calling this site JoDarknight.com

[thebzzisback]

You read the title, if you didn't want to read the thread then don't click the link. I told you that I loved the movie and none of the matters I listed were to give the review a negative connotation, simply wanted to hear would people thought about the points of discussion I posted.

[snoopmish]

1) I understand why they swapped out katie holmes for Maggie Gylenhaal but i felt they completely altered the character. Rachel Dawes transformed from this more quiet, stern and serious Asst DA to this strong, flirtatious love interest. If anything it should be the other way around given the mood and tone of The Dark Knight. Not only did they switch actresses, arguably for the better, but they killed her.


<<<1st point: The character wasn't altered...she grew up and was more comfortable in her skin. Plus she was in love with Dent! That can change anyone...being in love.

2) The Batmobile aka The Tumbler, judging by the name alone it should atleast be able to tumble. The batmobile shoots missles, has amazing security features and is the seemingly-indestructible vehicle. It did take a tumble in this film and it became an irreprable wreck. Don't know if they are looking to transform the vehicle into the classic version or a new model but it did not suit the tumbler's demise.

<<<<2nd point: Didn't bother me at all....it was hit with a missile after all, a Hummer would be the same...and it IS after all a hummer hybrid sort of car.

3) If Morgan Freeman's character Lucious Fox knows Wayne is batman then why did Wayne still have to talk with the voice of batman?

<<<<3rd point: Because he was in "Batman Character"...not himself. Keeping the edge going during what he was doing.

4) With the Joker still alive and his quote to assume the joker will remain a prevalent vilian in future films, will he be re-casted or written out. I believe the story has not yet been finished and they would tarnish the character and ground-breaking pith perfect performance by Ledger with neglecting the role in future films.


<<<<4th point: Not me. I think they should NOT try to recast the character. This was an amazing performance that needs to stand alone. It would only cheapen his performance if it was so easy to recast...then anyone could do it. Let him rot in Arkham....Joker got caught..THE END.

5) The final issue I had was that the first film had this continuously flowing story-line which worked perfectly, which Nolan did not utilize for the first 45 minutes. The opening scene was amazing, but the 45 min that followed were 10 seconds clips compiled over and over until the story-line resumed the continuous flow towards the height of the story.


<<< 5th & final point: The 1st part was setting up the new villain...that was it...also tying him into what Batman was already trying to do...destroy what was left of the mob. The next part needed to introduce Harvey Dent as the D.A. and show how they..Batman, Dent & Gordon..were working together but from different ideals. To me it was done right.

[LordSimen]

To all those who thought we were crazy that we were complaining about so many Batman threads, DO YOU NOW SEE WHY WE WERE COMPLAINING? Ugh.

[snoopmish]

To all those who thought we were crazy that we were complaining about so many Batman threads, DO YOU NOW SEE WHY WE WERE COMPLAINING? Ugh.


YES...but felt the need to answer....go fig?:confused:

[Tweek]

You read the title, if you didn't want to read the thread then don't click the link. I told you that I loved the movie and none of the matters I listed were to give the review a negative connotation, simply wanted to hear would people thought about the points of discussion I posted.

I don't think that's anyones' point. We usually put stuff like this in the already started threads for movies. And the stuff you brought up is and has been talked about right now.

[BakeTheMooCow]

You read the title, if you didn't want to read the thread then don't click the link.
Why the fuck do people keep saying this? That is not the fucking point. There is already a thread for TDK. Stick to the rules. And someone close these threads or merge them or something. JEsus.

[darkface]

Why the fuck do people keep saying this? That is not the fucking point. There is already a thread for TDK. Stick to the rules. And someone close these threads or merge them or something. JEsus.

Agree completely. This is a leading factor of why the JoBlo.com forums are the best. Because they stay organized, not everything is a rant, and most people are really constructive and have great input and feedback. So lets keep things in order shall we?

[LordSimen]

I think it's about time someone moved the Batman threads to the Batman forum.

An anticipation thread for the next movie in the upcoming movie forum and the Dark Knight thread in the current movie forum seem fine, but all these others ones just seem like clutter.

[CyclicNightmare]

http://www.lahiguera.net/cinemania/actores/will_smith/fotos/1036/will_smith.jpg

Somehow, 'I told you so' just doesn't quite say it.

[Brendan M.]

I think it's about time someone moved the Batman threads to the Batman forum.

An anticipation thread for the next movie in the upcoming movie forum and the Dark Knight thread in the current movie forum seem fine, but all these others ones just seem like clutter.

Its almost like we might need to start a temporary Batman section for the forum.

[mutesaint]

Its almost like we might need to start a temporary Batman section for the forum.

There is a batman section already.

[Smiert Spionam]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7739/suksxw1.gif

[GodHand]

The only issue I had was when the Joker said he never makes plans and "wouldn't know what to do with one" but the entire movie is based on his "master-plan," as are numerous events in the movie, i.e. the jailhouse scene, etc.

[Mr. Creasy]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7739/suksxw1.gif

Hahhahaahah lmao true that

[Brendan M.]

The only issue I had was when the Joker said he never makes plans and "wouldn't know what to do with one" but the entire movie is based on his "master-plan," as are numerous events in the movie, i.e. the jailhouse scene, etc.

Dude, c'mon. The character is hypocritical, a liar, and untrustworthy.

[ElderPredator]

What a useless thread. I swear that there is a secret society somewhere in this world that just wants to bitch about everything. Can't a movie be awesome anymore?

[DarkKnight81]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7739/suksxw1.gif
.

[LordSimen]

Its almost like we might need to start a temporary Batman section for the forum.

There is a Batman section. Right here: http://www.joblo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

Which makes it even more frustrating that there are so many Dark Knight threads. Haha.

[JohnLocke2342]

sigh, people are always complaining. I do feel you on Dawes though, I thought she was awful in the first, and pretty shitty in this one. I thanked Nolan after he killed her off.


The movie was awesome, lets let it be awesome... and yes, someone move this thread.

[dellamorte dellamore]

sigh, people are always complaining. I do feel you on Dawes though, I thought she was awful in the first, and pretty shitty in this one. I thanked Nolan after he killed her off.


The movie was awesome, lets let it be awesome... and yes, someone move this thread.

Spoilers

I just thought of something , when BB came out , a number of people wished Dawes wasn't even in the film and wished her character would get killed somehow in the sequel , or maybe not even brought back for this one , was Nolan giving the fans what they wanted ? :)

I'm not putting down the two people that played her , but i said when the first one came out , you could have taken her out of the film altogether and you wouldn't have missed her , i think the sequel illustrated that point better than i could have . She became like an afterthought , a failed subplot that was just getting in the way of the proceedings .

Please man , no more love story angles , let's finish this off in asexual fashion , batman doesn't need a woman , they always just complicates things anyway . He's had to attempt to rescue her twice now , it's time to move on man . Remember what catwoman said , anytime he gets involved with a woman , they either end up dead or severely disappointed , this was no different , when is this guy going to learn :)

[bigred760]

I loved the movie, however I felt frustrated at a few points in arguably Nolan's masterpiece.

1) I understand why they swapped out katie holmes for Maggie Gylenhaal but i felt they completely altered the character. Rachel Dawes transformed from this more quiet, stern and serious Asst DA to this strong, flirtatious love interest. If anything it should be the other way around given the mood and tone of The Dark Knight. Not only did they switch actresses, arguably for the better, but they killed her.

-Well, Katie Holmes didn't return because of "scheduling conflicts." I didn't see that much of a change in the character. She was strong-minded in both movies . . . the role changed a little bit though, she was less the Asst. DA to more of the female character in a love triangle.


2) The Batmobile aka The Tumbler, judging by the name alone it should atleast be able to tumble. The batmobile shoots missles, has amazing security features and is the seemingly-indestructible vehicle. It did take a tumble in this film and it became an irreprable wreck. Don't know if they are looking to transform the vehicle into the classic version or a new model but it did not suit the tumbler's demise.

It was hit by a missile and run over by a freakin' semitruck. But the Batpod survived. Whew.

3) If Morgan Freeman's character Lucious Fox knows Wayne is batman then why did Wayne still have to talk with the voice of batman?

Because he's Batman, that is Batman's voice.


4) With the Joker still alive and his quote to assume the joker will remain a prevalent vilian in future films, will he be re-casted or written out. I believe the story has not yet been finished and they would tarnish the character and ground-breaking pith perfect performance by Ledger with neglecting the role in future films.

Time will tell.

5) The final issue I had was that the first film had this continuously flowing story-line which worked perfectly, which Nolan did not utilize for the first 45 minutes. The opening scene was amazing, but the 45 min that followed were 10 seconds clips compiled over and over until the story-line resumed the continuous flow towards the height of the story.

I don't remember the movie that well.
I thought it flowed fine.


And this could've been discussed in the The Dark Knight thread; no reason to start a new one.

[The Heart Collector]

my big issue with this movie is that the Joker was a ridiculous 24 villain. He had backup plans for his backup plans, and really, for all of his plans to work, an insane amount of "ifs" would have to come true.

It looked particularly awful when compared to Batman, who they always explain just how he has this technology, how he has this training, etc. Meanwhile the Joker just manages to put tons of explosives EVERYWHERE within a few hours. Completely ridiculous. There were at least THREE parts in the movie where he was out in broad daylight wearing fucking makeup and no one even noticed. What the hell.

[X-Nightcrawler]

It looked particularly awful when compared to Batman, who they always explain just how he has this technology, how he has this training, etc. Meanwhile the Joker just manages to put tons of explosives EVERYWHERE within a few hours. Completely ridiculous. There were at least THREE parts in the movie where he was out in broad daylight wearing fucking makeup and no one even noticed. What the hell.I did notice that and it did irk me to hell. Particularly the bit when they steal the guys' uniforms in that celebration parade thing. The Joker was one of the, what, 8 guys with the rifles in broad daylight and no one seemed to notice. I mean, I did enjoy a good part of the movie, but I can't overlook many of the big shiny plot issues.

Same for the billions of "explosives" plots. How the hell did he manage to sneak so many explosives to the hospital? And hide them. There were literally explosions in EVERY room as he walked out. What, his lackies? How did they do that, anyway? Just walk into the room and say "Oh sorry, regulation explosive setup. Won't take but a moment, don't mind us." Not to mention load a billion explosives into the ferries without anyone noticing. . . and how he somehow knew he'd be out of the jail cell where the guy would explode. I mean, they put him in the same fucking cell he was in.

And the unecessary amount of subplots, like the lawyer who wanted to blackmail Fox about Batman's identity (no need to make an entire time-wasting subplot to let us know that a new villain is going to be introduced; do it like they did at the end of BB), or the whole Lau thing that seemed important because of how much time was put into it in the first hour but then everyone forgets about it. And could someone please explain what was the Scarecrow doing in the movie at the beginning? Why doesn't Batman give a damn that the guy who almost drove everyone in Gotham insane is loose? Why was he helping him (if he was, I honestly didn't get it)?

And all the minor things that make no sense, like apparently in the first, Batman knew that he couldn't move his neck, but hadn't bothered to tell that to Fox. "I can't even turn around, but you know, when I'm flying high and dodging buildings and riding the tumbler I probably won't need to; I have amazing peripheral vision."

[bigred760]

I did notice that and it did irk me to hell. Particularly the bit when they steal the guys' uniforms in that celebration parade thing. The Joker was one of the, what, 8 guys with the rifles in broad daylight and no one seemed to notice.

They all had rifles because they were doing the salute . . . plus they were dressed in police uniform. Police with rifles isn't that out of the ordinary, especially when marching in a funeral procession for a police commissioner.

[JohnLocke2342]

"and how he somehow knew he'd be out of the jail cell where the guy would explode. I mean, they put him in the same fucking cell he was in."

I'm pretty sure that the man exploded while the Joker was in the interogation room. Well, he stepped out of the room with the hostage. The explosion wasn't to break him out of a cell, and if he was in the same cell as the joker then he would have been killed in the explosion. He used him to blow the place to hell and take out the cops. He used his cleverness to get under people's skin to get himself out of the cell.


And about scarecrow? I don't know what he was doing in the film.. but I liked it, a lot. In keeping all of Batman's lunatic villains on the streets it makes for some crazy cameos for people to pop up whenever, I really dig that. it's just like the cartoon. Not everyone is in jail all the time. And I'm pretty sure Scarecrow went insane at the end of the first one, after he was gased. Maybe he's still a bit out there.

[X-Nightcrawler]

They all had rifles because they were doing the salute . . . plus they were dressed in police uniform. Police with rifles isn't that out of the ordinary, especially when marching in a funeral procession for a police commissioner.
Misunderstood my issue, sorry. I'm not wondering why they had the uniforms and rifles. I got that, that's how that shit is. What I don't get is why no one noticed the Joker among other like 7 guys taking the spotlight during the procession.

"and how he somehow knew he'd be out of the jail cell where the guy would explode. I mean, they put him in the same fucking cell he was in."

I'm pretty sure that the man exploded while the Joker was in the interogation room. Well, he stepped out of the room with the hostage. The explosion wasn't to break him out of a cell, and if he was in the same cell as the joker then he would have been killed in the explosion. He used him to blow the place to hell and take out the cops. He used his cleverness to get under people's skin to get himself out of the cell..Again, misunderstood my problem. The man did explode while the Joker was safely away. I'm wondering how the hell the Joker knew that. How did he know he'd be safely in the interrogation room when the guy exploded?

And my issue with the Scarecrow isn't really an issue. I was just confused as fuck about its purpose. It only bothers me because the movie is long and cluttered enough already.

[JohnLocke2342]

Again, misunderstood my problem. The man did explode while the Joker was safely away. I'm wondering how the hell the Joker knew that. How did he know he'd be safely in the interrogation room when the guy exploded?



Yeah, I feel you on that. The only thing I can think of is that the joker knew he'd be questioned and punished and maybe even in his own holding cell. Since he was just charged with attempted murder of the mayor and a bunch of innocent people, I'm sure he thought he'd be in his own cell. Who knows. I feel you tho, seems a bit crazy that he would know he'd be safe. I feel like thats way too nit picky for me to do so I just let it be lol

[bigred760]

Misunderstood my issue, sorry. I'm not wondering why they had the uniforms and rifles. I got that, that's how that shit is. What I don't get is why no one noticed the Joker among other like 7 guys taking the spotlight during the procession.

Because noone was looking for him; nobody expected it, not even Batman. He wasn't in full makeup and the only thing to identify him was his scars. If he kept his head down, which I believe he did, nobody would've noticed.


Again, misunderstood my problem. The man did explode while the Joker was safely away. I'm wondering how the hell the Joker knew that. How did he know he'd be safely in the interrogation room when the guy exploded?


Who says he knew he would be? All he had to be was somewhere other than where the guy (with the exploding phone) was. He was still in the police station, and he wasn't in the interrogation room - he was holding a pissed off cop hostage while asking for his "phone call."

[X-Nightcrawler]

Because noone was looking for him; nobody expected it, not even Batman. He wasn't in full makeup and the only thing to identify him was his scars. If he kept his head down, which I believe he did, nobody would've noticed.Since we've entered "I'll interpret this issue myself" mode, then let me get eye-to-eye. He couldn't have kept his head down without sticking out in that line. They were cops carrying a respectful procession; there's a very stiff procedure to do that kind of thing. There weren't many. even without looking for him, the guy with the huge fucking scars would've stuck out.


Who says he knew he would be? All he had to be was somewhere other than where the guy (with the exploding phone) was. He was still in the police station, and he wasn't in the interrogation room - he was holding a pissed off cop hostage while asking for his "phone call.". . . I know. But he was in fucking prison. How the hell did he think there'd be any chance he'd be away from that guy? It's a prison. It's difficult to imagine he'd be thinking something like "Well all right, eventhough it's a prison, I'll be in jail and under constant survailance, I suppose it's safe enough to think that luck will put me away from explod-o-guy by the time shit hits the fan. It's not like if this big-ass "if" fails, I'd die, or anything."

[JohnLocke2342]

this is going insanely far, let it slide, its a Batman movie. An absolutely incredible batman movie that's on another level, bordering masterpiece, but it's a batman movie. I think its ok if some things go a bit "out there".

[bigred760]

Since we've entered "I'll interpret this issue myself" mode, then let me get eye-to-eye. He couldn't have kept his head down without sticking out in that line. They were cops carrying a respectful procession; there's a very stiff procedure to do that kind of thing. There weren't many. even without looking for him, the guy with the huge fucking scars would've stuck out.

Yes, there's a bit of interpretation on my part, but it's not that crazy to assume that nobody saw him in a crowded street with thousands of people around him. Kept his head down, kept the hat low . . . if he got his entourage to do the same, it's not outrageous to assume that people missed him.

. . . I know. But he was in fucking prison. How the hell did he think there'd be any chance he'd be away from that guy? It's a prison. It's difficult to imagine he'd be thinking something like "Well all right, eventhough it's a prison, I'll be in jail and under constant survailance, I suppose it's safe enough to think that luck will put me away from explod-o-guy by the time shit hits the fan. It's not like if this big-ass "if" fails, I'd die, or anything."

Well he did create the position he was in . . . he carried his hostage out to the spot he ended up in . . . which did end up getting blown to bits as well.

And once Dent and Rachel went missing . . . it's pretty safe to assume that the police would know that he knew where they were, hence putting him in a interrogation room.

And let's not forget the guy is insane.

[X-Nightcrawler]

this is going insanely far, let it slide, its a Batman movie. An absolutely incredible batman movie that's on another level, bordering masterpiece, but it's a batman movie. I think its ok if some things go a bit "out there".I let it slide, actually. Which is why I liked the movie despite said problems. In a non-superhero movie, that would've made me dislike the movie far, far more. But obviously not everyone agrees that this movie can get away with it.

But to clear it up, it's just been pointed out to me that Joker was somehow the one who was in power to detonate that bomb, so it makes perfect sense that he'd wait until he's safely away to detonate it. My bad on that one.

[bigred760]

this is going insanely far, let it slide, its a Batman movie. An absolutely incredible batman movie that's on another level, bordering masterpiece, but it's a batman movie. I think its ok if some things go a bit "out there".

I do find it a bit odd that some schmoes have problems with the lack of Joker sightings in broad daylight, the Tumbler's efficiency, and in whose presence Batman decides to use his "voice," but the cellphone sonar thing is alright.

[X-Nightcrawler]

Oh right! The sonar thing. How the hell did that happen, anyway? It was so incredibly unnecessary, too.

Yes, there's a bit of interpretation on my part, but it's not that crazy to assume that nobody saw him in a crowded street with thousands of people around him. Kept his head down, kept the hat low . . . if he got his entourage to do the same, it's not outrageous to assume that people missed him.Of course. But to be fair, it's not crazy to assume otherwise. The difference is that I'm not willing to just give it the benefit of the doubt. Despite what many people who loved the movie think, I personally didn't see it looking for issues. Or well, better said, I didn't see it with eyes that were any more critical than the ones I use to watch anything else.

[bigred760]

Oh right! The sonar thing. How the hell did that happen, anyway? It was so incredibly unnecessary, too.

Aye.

Of course. But to be fair, it's not crazy to assume otherwise. The difference is that I'm not willing to just give it the benefit of the doubt. Despite what many people who loved the movie think, I personally didn't see it looking for issues.

Very true, it's not crazy to assume otherwise. But since it's plausible and possible that the Joker could've been missed, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Or well, better said, I didn't see it with eyes that were any more critical than the ones I use to watch anything else.

I would expect nothing less. ;)

[X-Nightcrawler]

Very true, it's not crazy to assume otherwise. But since it's plausible and possible that the Joker could've been missed, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. Good, matter of point of view. To put it in more theatrical and, honestly, appropriate terms:

*ahem*

"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you."

[LivelikeaMurder]

Same for the billions of "explosives" plots. How the hell did he manage to sneak so many explosives to the hospital? And hide them. There were literally explosions in EVERY room as he walked out. What, his lackies? How did they do that, anyway? Just walk into the room and say "Oh sorry, regulation explosive setup. Won't take but a moment, don't mind us." Not to mention load a billion explosives into the ferries without anyone noticing. . . and how he somehow knew he'd be out of the jail cell where the guy would explode. I mean, they put him in the same fucking cell he was in.



Because The Joker was the one calling the phone for the explosion, that was his "phone call" he was asking about, so HE KNEW he wouldnt be in the cell with him.

[The Heart Collector]

this is going insanely far, let it slide, its a Batman movie. An absolutely incredible batman movie that's on another level, bordering masterpiece, but it's a batman movie. I think its ok if some things go a bit "out there".

This movie quite specifically tried to be something more than "a batman movie", so much as changing the fictional but credible Gotham City of Begins for GothCHICAGO in this one. It was pretty blatantly trying to be "realistic", so I don't think it's unreasonable to criticize it for how goddamn outlandish it got.

[CuatroDiablos]

Well a Hospital has way less security than an airport and this is a fictional world even if is trying to be realistic ..Gotham does not fucking exist and it's not part of the after 9/11 USA we live in...so get your heads out of your fucking asses.

[Smiert Spionam]

HOW THE FUCK HAS THIS GODDAMN THREAD ALREADY MADE IT TO TWO PAGES????

DISCUSS IN THE DARK KNIGHT THREAD AND LET THIS ONE DIE!

P.S. I have a problem taking anything CuantroDiablos says seriously since he's a blatant racist as confirmed by an earlier thread, so I'd advise anyone getting into a debate with him to just ignore his nonsense.

[X-Nightcrawler]

Well a Hospital has way less security than an airport and this is a fictional world even if is trying to be realistic ..Gotham does not fucking exist and it's not part of the after 9/11 USA we live in...so get your heads out of your fucking asses.

I was ready to disregard your comment due to your blatant self-contradiction of "It's trying to be realistic but it's okay if it isn't because it isn't really real" deal.

But then you mentioned 9/11. I didn't expect you to get political. Now I'm taken aback. Respeck.

[electriclite]

Since we've entered "I'll interpret this issue myself" mode, then let me get eye-to-eye. He couldn't have kept his head down without sticking out in that line. They were cops carrying a respectful procession; there's a very stiff procedure to do that kind of thing. There weren't many. even without looking for him, the guy with the huge fucking scars would've stuck out.

. . . I know. But he was in fucking prison. How the hell did he think there'd be any chance he'd be away from that guy? It's a prison. It's difficult to imagine he'd be thinking something like "Well all right, eventhough it's a prison, I'll be in jail and under constant survailance, I suppose it's safe enough to think that luck will put me away from explod-o-guy by the time shit hits the fan. It's not like if this big-ass "if" fails, I'd die, or anything."
You do remember the bomb couldn't be detonated till he activated it with his one "phone call" right?

All he had to do was tell the guy to do something that would get him arrested at a certain time, which would get him thrown in a holding cell for easily a day. Then he'd just wait a while till they either gave him his Constitutional right to a phonecall, or a moment would present itself where he'd get it another way.

Plus I'm sure the Joker knows enough criminals who would clue him into the setup of the police station. The man may be insane, but he's also meticulous and has a pretty staunch understanding of human nature, and can play most people like a Strativarius.

[CuatroDiablos]

I do agree if a movie is based on real cities and it takes place after the year 2001 you are supposed to avoid anything that has to do with security holes since USA has improved greatly on that. But since this movie is not based in a real US city, then people need to look at it with an open mind and stop fucking complaining about stupid issues when the movie was awesome.

[X-Nightcrawler]

Yeah, that's the fourth time someone has addressed that one. I said "My apologies, that went over my head" a few posts back. I mentioned another 7 or so problems I had. It's not a big deal.

I do agree if a movie is based on real cities and it takes place after the year 2001 you are supposed to avoid anything that has to do with security holes since USA has improved greatly on that. But since this movie is not based in a real US city, then people need to look at it with an open mind and stop fucking complaining about stupid issues when the movie was awesome.I'm super glad you liked it. *thumbs up*

[CuatroDiablos]

HOW THE FUCK HAS THIS GODDAMN THREAD ALREADY MADE IT TO TWO PAGES????

DISCUSS IN THE DARK KNIGHT THREAD AND LET THIS ONE DIE!

P.S. I have a problem taking anything CuantroDiablos says seriously since he's a blatant racist as confirmed by an earlier thread, so I'd advise anyone getting into a debate with him to just ignore his nonsense.


I am?...didn't know. Maybe I was joking around in that thread I don't even remember being part of , but I am not racist and what does my comment have to do with racism?

Jesus take it easy man...OMFG LIEK THEY MADE ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT BATMAN! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[The Heart Collector]

Well a Hospital has way less security than an airport and this is a fictional world even if is trying to be realistic ..Gotham does not fucking exist and it's not part of the after 9/11 USA we live in...so get your heads out of your fucking asses.

This is a load of anti-intellectual garbage. Regardless, I'm not even arguing about security, I'm arguing about LOGISTICS. There is no fucking way you can rig an entire hospital full of explosives WHILE NO ONE NOTICES. This is preposterous, even in a movie like Crank this would be preposterous.

[X-Nightcrawler]

This is a load of anti-intellectual garbage. Regardless, I'm not even arguing about security, I'm arguing about LOGISTICS. There is no fucking way you can rig an entire hospital full of explosives WHILE NO ONE NOTICES. This is preposterous, even in a movie like Crank this would be preposterous.Yes dude, but "awesome" equals "perfect". I'm pretty sure there was a memo.

[bigred760]

This is a load of anti-intellectual garbage. Regardless, I'm not even arguing about security, I'm arguing about LOGISTICS. There is no fucking way you can rig an entire hospital full of explosives WHILE NO ONE NOTICES. This is preposterous, even in a movie like Crank this would be preposterous.

Darn good thing IT'S A MOVIE!!!!!!!

And who said nobody noticed? You've got bribed govt. officials, cops, and others . . . who's to say they didn't bribe a hospital staffer or three to "look the other way?"

But despite its outrageousness, it makes for a better movie with an entire hospital being blown to bits . . . not to mention the scene with the Joker playing with the detonator in a nurse's outfit was awesome.

[X-Nightcrawler]

Darn good thing IT'S A MOVIE!!!!!!!Fair point.

Now. Close JoBlo. Movies aren't meant to be analysed.

[CuatroDiablos]

Nope we enjoy movies here specially good ones like the dark knight and little plotholes don't bother us at all... in IMDB you'll have a crowd though.

[Shinigami]

Darn good thing IT'S A MOVIE!!!!!!!


And darn good thing the audience spent two hours prior watching again and again as The Joker's henchmen infiltrated every level of Gotham...

[bigred760]

Fair point.

Now. Close JoBlo. Movies aren't meant to be analysed.

If someone's going to start comparing The Dark Knight to Crank, then maybe it should be.

[X-Nightcrawler]

Nope we enjoy movies here specially good ones like the dark knight and little plotholes don't bother us at all... in IMDB you'll have a crowd though.Then we're in the same page. I want to analyse the movie which I liked. I liked it, that doesn't mean I can't see the things that are wrong with it.

I really am not trying to make you like it any less. As long as you admit there are plotholes and stop treating the guys who mind like dumbasses who couldn't possibly have a point.

If someone's going to start comparing The Dark Knight to Crank, then maybe it should be.What? He didn't compare it. Quite the contrary. He said "This would be stupid even in a movie like "Crank", a stupid movie."

[bigred760]

And darn good thing the audience spent two hours prior watching again and again as The Joker's henchmen infiltrated every level of Gotham...

huh?

[Shinigami]

Did I confuse you? :confused:

[bigred760]

Yeah, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that.

[X-Nightcrawler]

I don't remember Joker's lackies infiltrating the hospital/ferries with huge-ass bomb mechanisms, if that's what Shinigami is trying to say. I'll have to see that again.

[Shinigami]

You actually edited your post with the same info later on, bigred760. The Joker had people working for him, to whatever capacity, in almost every area of gotham, from politics to street life. He even had lackies in the law enforcement. Whether they were true believers in the clown prince of crime, or just scared citizens - that's splitting hairs.
One of the biggest dramatic pushes of the entire movie was the slow cornering of Gotham's good and brave people. Most of that happened because the The Joker has "worker bees" everywhere.

Like in a hospital.

[CuatroDiablos]

Do we have to see how the Joker's hencheman go around plating explosives?...that would make the movie a little bit longer don't you think?

[bigred760]

Ahhh . . . thank you.

That aspect reminds me of what Henri Ducard said in Batman Begins - something about infiltrating every level of government in Gotham.

If they can do it, why not the Joker?

[MisterTwister]

I think people are putting WAAAAAAY too much thought into it.

[Bourne101]

May I ask why this thread is still running?

[The Heart Collector]

Darn good thing IT'S A MOVIE!!!!!!!

And who said nobody noticed? You've got bribed govt. officials, cops, and others . . . who's to say they didn't bribe a hospital staffer or three to "look the other way?".

Who did they bribe during the attempted murder of the mayor?

The Joker was RIGHT THERE. He literally was right there. You could see his scars. Who did they bribe, Gotham City's optometrist, to sell shitty glasses to everyone?

There wasn't even really a point to having him there, I can't for the life of me understand why they had him there.

[The Heart Collector]

Ahhh . . . thank you.

That aspect reminds me of what Henri Ducard said in Batman Begins - something about infiltrating every level of government in Gotham.

If they can do it, why not the Joker?

Because that is an implausible explanation.

There's a lot of things the movie explains quite well, or well enough for people to suspend their disbelief. But some parts were just overkill. I mean The Joker had some serious "Ben from LOST" shit going on.

The problem with the movie is there's two ways you can do a villain like The Joker. One is make the character a quick-thinking, resourceful guy who can make the best out of shitty situations, therefore he is always in control. The other way is to make the character an implausibly intelligent man who has planned for every possible situation that could ever arise, and is thus always in control.

I prefer the first type, because it is always more plausible. I find it much more likely that a character knows how to break out of a jail than I find a character getting jailed in order to be able to escape from that same jail. That's my issue with it.

The Joker's plan there was essentially something like "If I don't get killed by Batman or the cops that I am attacking (even though I am running around with a bazooka), and if I am sent to the same penitentiary where I sent a man with a bomb inside him, and if these events are so coordinated that the man doesn't die and get removed from the building before I have a chance to blow him up using a cell phone, then I will get the chinese guy". What the fuck is that? I understand that it makes the Joker "cool" and "clever" and whatnot, but why not just have the guy break out from the prison and take the chinese guy with him without resorting to all these contrived scenarios?

I give the movie an 8/10, it's not like I hate it or anything. But "it's only a movie" is a perversely shitty retort, especially when people are claiming this deserves Oscars, #1 on imdb.com, etc. It's completely unfair and antithetical to the whole point of this website to sit around talking about how great and brilliant and awesome the movie is and how fucking different it is from anything and how its a modern classic and all this shit, but then cower at any criticism by saying "Gee shucks it's only a movie".

[LordSimen]

Personally I don't need explanations for how the Joker pulled off everything he did. Just like I don't need an explanation for how the Sonar Cell Phones work. Those aspects to me, I love, partly because they are the few moments in the movie where Nolan actually does embrace the fact that it's a comic book film and not a fact-based drama. And comic books are fantastic, they aren't always realistic, and they don't always give you explanations for how their characters pull off such an amazing task. The only explanation I need is the knowledge that Joker was crazy enough to do it, and so was Batman.

[The Heart Collector]

One of the big reasons people liked Batman Begins is because it was plausible. It was believable. Plausible and believable movies are good because you can actually immerse yourself in them without questioning what happens. Batman Begins did this very successfully. I could believe that Bruce Wayne would want to understand crime. I could believe that he was a fighting machine, and was well-trained. I could believe that the enterprise of being Batman could exist, because he had the financial resources for it. I could believe in the idea of Batman because the movie explained why and how he had a crazy vehicle, why and how he had a crazy armor, why and how he could do all those stunts, etc. This is one of the main reasons people liked that movie! And that's what people discuss about the Nolan movies all the time. Everyone, when talking about who the new villains will be, always says "Those just don't fit into Nolan's realistic universe" or whatever. I could even believe the villains in those movies.

It's just such a huge (and crappy) contrast to see The Joker do all this shit with no explanation or plausibility other than "he gots money" while they explain everything Batman does, up to how he manages to flee from Hong Kong. I was looking forward to Nolan doing a version of The Joker that fit what he'd done so far with these movies, not give The Joker a free reign and turn him into a crazy god with the excuse of "oh, but he has all this mob money".

[Cop No. 633]

It's just such a huge (and crappy) contrast to see The Joker do all this shit with no explanation or plausibility other than "he gots money" while they explain everything Batman does, up to how he manages to flee from Hong Kong. I was looking forward to Nolan doing a version of The Joker that fit what he'd done so far with these movies, not give The Joker a free reign and turn him into a crazy god with the excuse of "oh, but he has all this mob money".

I suppose it's because Nolan's choice was to portray him as a force of nature rather than a man. Joker was never a man in the sense that Batman or Dent was. He was an idea. To explain him the way Batman was examined would have yielded exactly what Rob Zombie did for the atrocious Halloween remake. It's why he has that little speech prepared for everyone that he changes certain words for effect. One line summed him up perfectly in the film: "I am an agent of chaos." He was Loki in every sense of the word. I enjoyed that aspect about the film. I understand that the film took some fancy flights. I wish the film could have been 3 hours and shown all the scenes of the Joker preparing the bombs and showing where he came up with those plans. But at the same token, it would have given a completely different feeling to his character. This Joker in essence reminded me of what the original Michael Myers was like. The audience is convinced it's a man because of his shape, but it's only a disguise for death. Or in the film's case: chaos.

I also loved the viciousness of his character. The sadistic clown in me couldn't help but smile with the Joker. I had the same like for the Joker as I did Daniel Plainview. They both made these dramatic films fun for me to watch.

[JohnLocke2342]

I can't believe how fucking anal people are. This is completely insane. Why are we arguing about the security of a hospital in a fictional city?? Why are we questioning the logic and lack of explanation for an insanely twisted out of his mind clown prince of crime that calls himself a joker and wears clown make up on his face?? He stated 4 times in the movie that he rips off crooks and mob bosses. He was hired by the mob, I'm sure they paid him well. He killed Gambol and probably took his apartment and all of his cash/funds. Jesus, you guys make my head hurt. Enjoy the awesomeness that was this movie and let it go.


Oh, and another thing...about the cops of Gotham sucking at their jobs and allowing the joker to rig explosions and infiltrate every part of the city? Come on. If the police were so good at their job there wouldn't be a reason for Batman to exist. Cops in super hero movies or comic books are not meant to be the heroes. They're a bit slow, usually spraying clips and hitting air, and getting badly beaten..thus being the reason the super hero is there to save the day. Not the police. That's called the real world.

[LordSimen]

I can't believe how fucking anal people are. This is completely insane. Why are we arguing about the security of a hospital in a fictional city?? Why are we questioning the logic and lack of explanation for an insanely twisted out of his mind clown prince of crime that calls himself a joker and wears clown make up on his face?? He stated 4 times in the movie that he rips off crooks and mob bosses. He was hired by the mob, I'm sure they paid him well. He killed Gambol and probably took his apartment and all of his cash/funds. Jesus, you guys make my head hurt. Enjoy the awesomeness that was this movie and let it go.


Agreed.

[dellamorte dellamore]

I think if you claim you want to make the world of batman realistic , taking flights of fancy will raise flags , even if it's the Joker being given free reign .

If he did hole up in Gambol's house , i'm sure batman or the police would have been able to find him sooner , the guy has to sleep right ( i don't think this version of the Joker does ) , and it's not like he doesn't stand out in the crowd with those massive scars , like when he was standing right in front of the podium as the mayor made a speech about the deceased commissioner . Nobody saw him somehow , not even Gordon lol . Not a one person recognized him , after all the people he had to pass in order to make it to the area in front of the podium , this guy is slick .

[dellamorte dellamore]

Because that is an implausible explanation.

There's a lot of things the movie explains quite well, or well enough for people to suspend their disbelief. But some parts were just overkill. I mean The Joker had some serious "Ben from LOST" shit going on.

The problem with the movie is there's two ways you can do a villain like The Joker. One is make the character a quick-thinking, resourceful guy who can make the best out of shitty situations, therefore he is always in control. The other way is to make the character an implausibly intelligent man who has planned for every possible situation that could ever arise, and is thus always in control.

I prefer the first type, because it is always more plausible. I find it much more likely that a character knows how to break out of a jail than I find a character getting jailed in order to be able to escape from that same jail. That's my issue with it.

The Joker's plan there was essentially something like "If I don't get killed by Batman or the cops that I am attacking (even though I am running around with a bazooka), and if I am sent to the same penitentiary where I sent a man with a bomb inside him, and if these events are so coordinated that the man doesn't die and get removed from the building before I have a chance to blow him up using a cell phone, then I will get the chinese guy". What the fuck is that? I understand that it makes the Joker "cool" and "clever" and whatnot, but why not just have the guy break out from the prison and take the chinese guy with him without resorting to all these contrived scenarios?

I give the movie an 8/10, it's not like I hate it or anything. But "it's only a movie" is a perversely shitty retort, especially when people are claiming this deserves Oscars, #1 on imdb.com, etc. It's completely unfair and antithetical to the whole point of this website to sit around talking about how great and brilliant and awesome the movie is and how fucking different it is from anything and how its a modern classic and all this shit, but then cower at any criticism by saying "Gee shucks it's only a movie".


lol , brill post man , and i agree , every plan he concocted just somehow worked exactly as he planned , the more i think about it , the more unbelievable the character and the situations become . yeah , the jail thing , what the hell , it went off with pinpoint accuracy . he had to goad the officer in the holding cell , the guy with the cell phone had to be there at the same time , he had to first get arrested , lol , after a lengthy car chase . i think the more you scrutinize this film , the more it becomes implausible , it's in the comic book fantasy realm now , but that doesn't mean i still don't think its great , but as with almost any sequel , it always gets more fantastical .

i'm still trying to figure out how batman had the tumbler break through that divider in the multi level parking garage . you can see they were about 4 stories up , so did it just jump up and then smash through . and why did he blow everything up just to scare off the drug dealers , jeez , couldn't he have done something a bit less drastic , oh right , because we love watching cinematic explosions , come one man he could have easily crumbled the whole place with all the firepower he used . and why didn't batman smarten up and realize he will potentially be facing guard dogs on his little adventures , you're telling me LF couldn't devise some sort of repellent ( a spray or a sound ), he was quick to isolate the receptor compound when bat got hit with crow's toxin , but bruce never imagined to ask him to concoct something to prevent dog attacks , damn man , then we wouldn't have had that cool scene with three rottweilers attacking batman at the end . i can understand the first time it happens , but i would imagine he would be smarter the next time around .

[The Postmaster General]

This is a load of anti-intellectual garbage. Regardless, I'm not even arguing about security, I'm arguing about LOGISTICS. There is no fucking way you can rig an entire hospital full of explosives WHILE NO ONE NOTICES. This is preposterous, even in a movie like Crank this would be preposterous.


Hospital security is pretty preposterous. People rob from them all the time - records, from patients, from the pharmacies, and it's all usually kept very hush because it's bad press. It depends on the hospital, sure, but in general hospitals are understaffed and overwhelmed to begin with.

Now, the idea of bringing in a shit ton of explosives does raise an issue, but Joker always gets big crews dressed as personnel to pull his jobs. There's no reason there could have been some "deliveries" to Gotham hospital, or some food service workers adding in some C4 with the dinner carts.

Judging from the explosions, there seemed to be less than a dozen points where explosives were placed. One room wired to explode could take out a couple of floors.

It wasn't very preposterous, even for a comic book movie. I'm sure, though, you will still vehemently disagree.

[dellamorte dellamore]

i still want to know how the Joker took a massive beatdown from batman and he wasn't bruised at all . he would have had welts all over the place with the blows batman was raining down on him .

[DepartedLad]

There's a straightforward answer to that: make-up!

[The Postmaster General]

i still want to know how the Joker took a massive beatdown from batman and he wasn't bruised at all . he would have had welts all over the place with the blows batman was raining down on him .


Bruce Wayne has to protect his image. He has trained himself to hit people without leaving marks, as to not get ousted as a woman beater. This was all outlined in the graphic novel "Slapdown for Silence"

[Tweek]

Hospital security is pretty preposterous. People rob from them all the time - records, from patients, from the pharmacies, and it's all usually kept very hush because it's bad press. It depends on the hospital, sure, but in general hospitals are understaffed and overwhelmed to begin with.

Now, the idea of bringing in a shit ton of explosives does raise an issue, but Joker always gets big crews dressed as personnel to pull his jobs. There's no reason there could have been some "deliveries" to Gotham hospital, or some food service workers adding in some C4 with the dinner carts.

Judging from the explosions, there seemed to be less than a dozen points where explosives were placed. One room wired to explode could take out a couple of floors.

It wasn't very preposterous, even for a comic book movie. I'm sure, though, you will still vehemently disagree.

What he said.

[LordSimen]

If you went into a comic book movie and saw a character do something so fantastic and amazing that you couldn't just believe they pulled it off, then you sir shouldn't watch comic book movies.

[echo_bravo]

NO ONE knew what the Joker actually looked like under all that hardcore clown makeup he had on.

So him walking around without is fine. People at the parade might of just assumed he got those nasty scars in the line of duty or on the job or something like that.

As far as blowing up a hospital, I dont think it was that far fetched at all. For all we know the Joker was planning that for months or something. I like how a lot of the film is left up for a lot of interpretation. Everything isnt all laid out for you.

If I had to compare The Joker to anything it would be a professional chess player. He is always 5 moves ahead of the competition.

[dellamorte dellamore]

Yeah , and time and again the pawns just happen to fall into place for his schemes to work , but that's a comic book film for you .

I don't buy the no makeup argument , the security was supposed to be higher than normal for this event , considering the threats that Joker was making , so you're telling me he didn't raise any suspicion , it's a flight of fancy on Nolan's part , we are supposed to accept that he infiltrated the funeral detail just because he is the Joker , an all powerful cipher of the underworld . Then to top it off one of his henchmen , a former mental patient , is part of the detail also , nobody noticed he was out of place either . This isn't a minor detail , this is a major plot point , more like a Deus ex Machina . The whole film is one big Dem .

If this is supposed to be based on Nyc , i don't see that happening , these cops were basically of the keystone variety .

[dellamorte dellamore]

Bruce Wayne has to protect his image. He has trained himself to hit people without leaving marks, as to not get ousted as a woman beater. This was all outlined in the graphic novel "Slapdown for Silence"

I didn't know there was way to punch someone in the face repeatedly , throw them up against a glass observation window , subsequently cracking it , without leaving even a slight visible bruise , even if you use ninja tactics . His lips would have puffed up even more , there would have been some blood , he would have some welts on his face , come on , now we're forgiving this because of what was written in one of the novels ?

[Cop No. 633]

Your defensive arguments for the Happening were much more laughable than what I've read here. You're nitpicking minute details just to say you found flaws when there were much bigger gaping holes with the Happening that you essentially insinuated that people were "snobs" for pointing them out and not getting it. And now you're doing the same thing for a comic adaptation. Niiice.

[dellamorte dellamore]

Hey i knew going in to the happening that it was sci fi fantasy , but when someone claims that they are trying to construct a realistic world , you should be consistent with that sentiment . In that world , the happening made sense to me , in this supposed realistic world , they took way too many flight of fancy .

Is that bad ,not at all , but it's comic book origins are becoming more prevalent with each installment . It wants to have it both ways , it wants us to accept it as a comic book film based in reality , but then it takes liberties with the characters and consequences .

[Cop No. 633]

Hey i knew going in to the happening that it was sci fi fantasy

Well, I guess you could say the same about the lot of us who walked into a comic book adaptation.

You're acting like the first film didn't have the microwave-emitter in its final act. There's always going to be flights of fancy in any comic film regardless of how "realistic" it is. It's realistic up until a certain point but it is still in the fantasy genre because of its origins.

[notchreturns]

Thread is good for a laugh.

Thanks all.

[The Heart Collector]

As far as blowing up a hospital, I dont think it was that far fetched at all. For all we know the Joker was planning that for months or something.

And luckily for the Joker, it was the exact same hospital that Harvey Dent got sent to!

[The Postmaster General]

I didn't know there was way to punch someone in the face repeatedly , throw them up against a glass observation window , subsequently cracking it , without leaving even a slight visible bruise , even if you use ninja tactics . His lips would have puffed up even more , there would have been some blood , he would have some welts on his face , come on , now we're forgiving this because of what was written in one of the novels ?


I didn't know there was a way to read that Bruce Wayne trained himself to beat up women without leaving marks and take it seriously. So as you can see, anything is possible.

LOL "Smackdown for Silence"...

Really? I gotta keep my eyes on you.

[CyclicNightmare]

Slapdown for Silence > Smackdown for Silence

But they're both good.

[The Postmaster General]

Shit, that's the third time today I accidentally accessed an alternate cut of one of my fantasies.

[rilocay]

I think the main reason Joker got away with being on the street parade is that, many of the cops are corrpt and owned by the mob. It was pointedout pretty heavily in the film cause it lends itself to the whole corrupt and anyone can be bad themes the movie was handeling. That and sure the scars were obvious, but even though we know it's ledger under the make-up, we don't see him cuz he's so much the character. Could go both ways. But yeah it does require a bit of a fan-wank.

[chasingbanky]

I think the most ridiculous part if there are any is that the gun jams before Harvey can be assassinated... That was a little to per-chance, but the Joker thing in the parade is a set up... Gordon planned to fake his death, and probably saw the Joker and his crew long before they took the shot. They were right in front of him after all.

He just played it "close to the chest," so you didn't know he knew...

[Servo]

A) The Hospital

It's extremely plausiable that The Joker pulled this off. The Joker has a fucking ARMY of henchmen ALL THROUGHOUT Gotham. He always has, always will, in comics, movies, TV shows, etc. I've surmised that was the whole point behind the viral campaign. Think Project Mayhem. Exact same principal. And like what Bubba said, there's no reason to think he didn't have his henchmen disguise themselves as some delivery company and smuggle in explosives. Besides, who checks for that shit in hospitals?

B) The Funeral

Security was tight, but only where they expected him. They had sniper's everywhere, that was there idea of tight security. They didn't think to check the riflemen. I'm guessing that his scars aren't that noticeable without the makeup, especially since the bank robbers didn't realize he was The Joker when he was loaded into the car. Plus, like said before, it's like a chess game. Remember, this is where Gordon was shot and supposedly killed. They probably knew he would pop out of the crowd somewhere - not saying they knew exactly who and how, just that he'd be there. So they probably let him just to fake Gordon's death.

And, Jesus Christ Dellamorte, there aren't even 100% realistic movies that are as realistic as you're describing. Watch a goddamn documentery if you want that kind of realism.

[Shinigami]

People are overlooking one of the most important elements of Nolan's realism: believable characters. Explaining how batman flies and kills with wild gadgets is a superficial addition that most people won't even understand; "Oh, batman's suit is made of kevlar fibers, okay". The real meat of this series is how it manages to explore these characters as though they were living, breathing human beings. Whether Joker could or couldn't have infiltrated the funeral is almost missing the point.
"The point", is how the characters of Joker, Two-face, Scarecrow, and even Batman, were explored with believable, plausible, and occasionally 'realistic' motivations, psychologies, or ideologies. That is what sets this series apart.

...to me.

[electriclite]

People are overlooking one of the most important elements of Nolan's realism: believable characters. Explaining how batman flies and kills with wild gadgets is a superficial addition that most people won't even understand; "Oh, batman's suit is made of kevlar fibers, okay". The real meat of this series is how it manages to explore these characters as though they were living, breathing human beings. Whether Joker could or couldn't have infiltrated the funeral is almost missing the point.
"The point", is how the characters of Joker, Two-face, Scarecrow, and even Batman, were explored with believable, plausible, and occasionally 'realistic' motivations, psychologies, or ideologies. That is what sets this series apart.

...to me.
THANK YOU!

[DepartedLad]

Here here!

[JohnLocke2342]

People are overlooking one of the most important elements of Nolan's realism: believable characters. Explaining how batman flies and kills with wild gadgets is a superficial addition that most people won't even understand; "Oh, batman's suit is made of kevlar fibers, okay". The real meat of this series is how it manages to explore these characters as though they were living, breathing human beings. Whether Joker could or couldn't have infiltrated the funeral is almost missing the point.
"The point", is how the characters of Joker, Two-face, Scarecrow, and even Batman, were explored with believable, plausible, and occasionally 'realistic' motivations, psychologies, or ideologies. That is what sets this series apart.

...to me.


+207

well fucking said, sir

[Big Daddy]

. . . I know. But he was in fucking prison. How the hell did he think there'd be any chance he'd be away from that guy? It's a prison. It's difficult to imagine he'd be thinking something like "Well all right, eventhough it's a prison, I'll be in jail and under constant survailance, I suppose it's safe enough to think that luck will put me away from explod-o-guy by the time shit hits the fan. It's not like if this big-ass "if" fails, I'd die, or anything."[/QUOTE]

I don't get all the confusion on this. The Joker called the phone in the guys stomach and that set off the bomb. That was the whole reason he took the guy hostage and asked to make his phone call. He probably wouldn't have done it if they were in the same cell.

[X-Nightcrawler]

I GET IT!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/X-Nightcrawler/chokeabitch.jpg

[The Postmaster General]

. . . I know. But he was in fucking prison. How the hell did he think there'd be any chance he'd be away from that guy? It's a prison. It's difficult to imagine he'd be thinking something like "Well all right, eventhough it's a prison, I'll be in jail and under constant survailance, I suppose it's safe enough to think that luck will put me away from explod-o-guy by the time shit hits the fan. It's not like if this big-ass "if" fails, I'd die, or anything."



Am I the only one that thinks the Joker didn't give a shit and would have just as soon taken himself out with the whole jail? He said a lot of what he was doing was making up shit as he went along. I think Joker is more impressed with the idea of getting a bomb into the jail than actually escaping from jail. Chaos was his inspiration, not his means.

[DaMovieMan]

Am I the only one that thinks the Joker didn't give a shit and would have just as soon taken himself out with the whole jail? He said a lot of what he was doing was making up shit as he went along. I think Joker is more impressed with the idea of getting a bomb into the jail than actually escaping from jail. Chaos was his inspiration, not his means.

Just like Harvey not giving a shit when he shot the driver. He just put his seatbelt on and let fate take its course. I loved that scene, and it just goes to show how much Joker influenced him after he got scarred.

[FLAME_ON]

Am I the only one that thinks the Joker didn't give a shit and would have just as soon taken himself out with the whole jail? He said a lot of what he was doing was making up shit as he went along. I think Joker is more impressed with the idea of getting a bomb into the jail than actually escaping from jail. Chaos was his inspiration, not his means.

See, this was my exact impression of the Joker... And just like the problem people are having with him leaving Bruce's penthouse, it happened; I think it's better thinking "who knows?!", he did it, got away with it, and kept moving... maybe he hid out on another floor of the building cracking jokes or maybe he just walked out thinking "eh."

[Tweek]

maybe he just walked out thinking "eh."

Haha I'd find that amusing. He just leaves saying "Eh! Whatever."

[Potzer! 37]

Does all the "yeah, and this was kinda of lame" or "this plot hole over here didn't make sense" and the "why was this needed, again" in this thread really mean it's not the best movie ever?

I've been pretty off it, since the casting for Joker was announced...I wasn't a fan of Begins (fuck, reality, Batman's a comic book hero, not a duchebag with a tank) and thouhgt Ledger was wrong for the Joker...and then when it was know that this version of the Joker was just a crazy killer clown, I thought, well yeah Heath'd be good in that role...but that's not the Joker...it's a serial killer in clown make-up.

I'd basically decided against seeing it (I really only was going to see it because of the hype and acclaim, not any intrest from my point of view...just like when I saw Atonement cause it got a best pic nom) but I'm suprised that people had problems with it...hell, it dethroned The Godfather and made more money than the Vatican (and Hellboy II, a movie that's insanely well done and deserves a third entry now that I think about it)...is it not the geek equivalent of Citizen Kane?

Anyway, let me know if it is AMANZING AS FUCK (which is a direct quote from a friend of mine who saw it) or just another big action, crime story with a guy in a bat suit and a guy in clown make up fucking around in Chicago.

[CuatroDiablos]

It's way better than Annie Hall.

[Potzer! 37]

It's way better than Annie Hall.
Good to know

[rob the many]

Yes there are flaws but no really big hole I think that's all you can ask for. I'm going to see it again and I'll be back to bring up my issues.

[dellamorte dellamore]

The Joker loved to corrupt the innocent , it was his main goal concerning Dent , Batman and the citizens of Gotham . Everything he did was designed to break people's will , illicit a nihilistic response , and make them do things that go against their beliefs .

I imagine him staying at the party and hitting on some uptight society babes , getting them to loosen up a bit , going back to Gam's mansion and doing some magic tricks for them . I imagine he would have had a nice meal and some drinks also before he left , maybe even dance and do some magic tricks for the horrified crowd .

We do know he is certifiably insane now , as evidenced by the compliment he bestowed on Rachel Dawes :D

About his possible suicidal tendencies , and his nonchalant attitude in the face of mortal danger , i think he didn't care what happened to himself , he just wanted to know that he got the last " laugh " and caused maximum destruction , confusion and fear . He fed off of people's insecurities about them self , he was a predator that enjoyed playing with his prey before he destroyed them .