"Dear Pro-Lifers: You Lose" - Bill Hicks

[countchocula]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090124/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_abortion_ban;_ylt=As3s51utsHWMvZlsCPtVntiyFz 4D

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama on Friday struck down the Bush administration's ban on giving federal money to international groups that perform abortions or provide abortion information — an inflammatory policy that has bounced in and out of law for the past quarter-century.

Obama's move, the latest in an aggressive first week reversing contentious Bush policies, was warmly welcomed by liberal groups and denounced by abortion rights foes.

The ban has been a political football between Democratic and Republican administrations since GOP President Ronald Reagan first adopted it 1984. Democrat Bill Clinton ended the ban in 1993, but Republican George W. Bush re-instituted it in 2001 as one of his first acts in office.

"For too long, international family planning assistance has been used as a political wedge issue, the subject of a back and forth debate that has served only to divide us," Obama said in a statement released by the White House. "I have no desire to continue this stale and fruitless debate."

He said the ban was unnecessarily broad and undermined family planning in developing countries.

"In the coming weeks, my administration will initiate a fresh conversation on family planning, working to find areas of common ground to best meet the needs of women and families at home and around the world," the president said.

Obama issued the presidential memorandum rescinding the Bush policy without coverage by the media, late Friday afternoon. The abortion measure is a highly emotional one for many people, and the quiet signing was in contrast to the televised coverage of Obama's announcement Wednesday on ethics rules and Thursday's signing of orders on closing the Guantanamo Bay prison camp and banning torture in the questioning of terror suspects.

His action came one day after the 36th anniversary of the landmark Supreme Court ruling in Roe v. Wade that legalized abortion.

The Bush policy had banned U.S. taxpayer money, usually in the form of Agency for International Development funds, from going to international family planning groups that either offer abortions or provide information, counseling or referrals about abortion as a family planning method.

Critics have long held that the rule unfairly discriminates against the world's poor by denying U.S. aid to groups that may be involved in abortion but also work on other aspects of reproductive health care and HIV/AIDS, leading to the closure of free and low-cost rural clinics.

Supporters of the ban say that the United States still provides millions of dollars in family planning assistance around the world and that the rule prevents anti-abortion taxpayers from backing something they believe is morally wrong.

The ban has been known as the "Mexico City policy" for the city a U.S. delegation first announced it at a U.N. International Conference on Population.

Both Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who will oversee foreign aid, had promised to do away with the rule during the presidential campaign.

Clinton said Friday evening that for seven years Bush's policy made it more difficult for women around the world to gain access to essential information and health care services. "Rather than limiting women's ability to receive reproductive health services, we should be supporting programs that help women and their partners make decisions to ensure their health and the health of their families," Clinton said.

Taxpayers being forced to fund something they don't believe in...hmm, where have I heard that before?

[shoe1985]

In my opinion, it should be the woman's right decide what to do. We have had an abortion debate before that went to hell quickly. I hope this doesn't happen to this topic.

Honestly though, Obama is pro choice, what did you expect he would do? Did anyone look at what he is for before voting?

[Homyrrh]

Obama's a bit more than pro-choice.

I saw a blurb in the Times about this; as is stated, the legislation for this bounces between partisan administrations.

[Jamesadin]

What is "more" than pro-choice? Extra-pro-choice?

[Brando @$$ Fat]

It means that he personally seeks to grant mothers the right to kill their small children up to two years after birth. But no later than that, though.

[screamer581]

It means that he personally seeks to grant mothers the right to kill their small children up to two years after birth. But no later than that, though.

+1

[Preston_79]

I'm pro life, but this is good news. Even though I'm against abortion, I'm focused more on our own population and how abortion can be used so casually by lazy fucking Americans. I see nothing wrong sending funds to piss poor countries helping people abort babies that won't ever have a chance. So, good. Abort all day long.

I'm hungry. Who wants scrambled eggs?

[Vong]

I'm pro life, but I'm totally against government interference with people's personal lives.

Scrambled eggs? Fuck that! Who wants french toast?!?

[Homyrrh]

It means that he personally seeks to grant mothers the right to kill their small children up to two years after birth. But no later than that, though.
...well, actually just nine months after conception.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm pro life, but I'm totally against government interference with people's personal lives.


This is pretty much how I feel, with the addition of an anecdote about how I used to think it was really funny to see dogs smile, until I once saw one smiling and realized it had a doggy boner. You see something like that and there's no other choice but to be pro-life.

[Cop No. 633]

I'm pro life, but this is good news. Even though I'm against abortion, I'm focused more on our own population and how abortion can be used so casually by lazy fucking Americans. I see nothing wrong sending funds to piss poor countries helping people abort babies that won't ever have a chance. So, good. Abort all day long.

I'm hungry. Who wants scrambled eggs?

What's the difference between a poor mother in Ethiopia having a baby and an overweight American mother who has no high school education but still makes a good living? I'd say either way, the kid is fucked.

I agree, there are lots of lazy Americans having abortions, but do we really need those lazy fuckers having kids? I'd rather they not.

[The Postmaster General]

Yeah, it's funny because a good number of abortions are given to women who don't want a child interfering with their career.

I think the intended point was that Americans are lazy.

[electriclite]

Yeah, it's funny because a good number of abortions are given to women who don't want a child interfering with their career.


Its funny when you think of that and then how Dan Quayle pitched a hissy fit when the Murphy Brown character (a professional working woman) had a child out of wedlock.

Damned if you do damned if you don't...

[Homyrrh]

Yeah, it's funny because a good number of abortions are given to women who don't want a child interfering with their career.

I think the intended point was that Americans are lazy.
Can't blame anyone for being lazy with the promise of universal healthcare....ohhhhhhhhhhhh...

Just gonna let the abortion topic go.

[The Postmaster General]

Can't blame anyone for being lazy with the promise of universal healthcare....ohhhhhhhhhhhh...


I know what you people mean, nothing says kicking back and taking it easy like having uncorrected vision and no preventive dental care. Sometimes, when I need a break from the stress of work, I like to eat raw chicken just so I can get sick, because going to the doctor for medical treatment is way more fun than flying somewhere on a planned vacation. For my kid's birthday, he wanted to go to Chuck E Cheese, but instead I told him to put his hand in the garbage disposal so he would need medical care. Everyone was telling me I was crazy, but I said, "No way, he'll remember this is as the best time ever!!!"

No doubt, people would much rather receive medical care than having money. Great point!

[Badbird]

I know what you people mean, nothing says kicking back and taking it easy like having uncorrected vision and no preventive dental care. Sometimes, when I need a break from the stress of work, I like to eat raw chicken just so I can get sick, because going to the doctor for medical treatment is way more fun than flying somewhere on a planned vacation. For my kid's birthday, he wanted to go to Chuck E Cheese, but instead I told him to put his hand in the garbage disposal so he would need medical care. Everyone was telling me I was crazy, but I said, "No way, he'll remember this is as the best time ever!!!"

No doubt, people would much rather receive medical care than having money. Great point!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/119/294168009_b25decaddf.jpg

[someguy]

Even though I'm against abortion, I'm focused more on our own population and how abortion can be used so casually by lazy fucking Americans.

The idea that women look at abortion as something casual or something that affects them in no way is a bullshit story that's been spread around by people who are against abortion.

[The Heart Collector]

abortion can be used so casually by lazy fucking Americans


Evidence, please. And not of the anecdotal kind.

[The Heart Collector]

Can't blame anyone for being lazy with the promise of universal healthcare....ohhhhhhhhhhhh...

ohhhhhhhhh what? "oohhhhh i just strung a meaningless sentence together"? What the fuck are you talking about?

...well, actually just nine months after conception.

Evidence, please.

[Preston_79]

The idea that women look at abortion as something casual or something that affects them in no way is a bullshit story that's been spread around by people who are against abortion.


I didn't and wouldn't say that having an abortion has no effect on the girl who's having it.

We've been down this topic before. I'm obviously not totally against abortion, so you won't be hearing the anti abortion argument coming from me. There will always be a need for abortions in my opinion.

Like I've stated before in other threads related to this topic, I'm for personally responsibility. To me there is a difference between a pregnant woman, starving, infected with HIV, living in a country that can't, or won't help, and say an American teenage girl, who got pregnant her junior year of high school, and wants to have an abortion, so she won't get fat and can still be a cheerleader.

I don't think what I'm saying is despicable. I've seen examples of woman having abortions in this country for selfish reasons right beside the ones who are having them for a good reason, like they were raped, or their baby will be born retarded.

I'm not for banning abortion in this country or any other.

[countchocula]

Personal responsibility is important, but there is no button to push that would make every young man/woman in America mature and responsible. That's why we have sex education, condoms, birth control, etc. We can only hope that people aren't going to make stupid mistakes. But you know what? People are going to make stupid mistakes, especially young people who are spoiled and desensitized. Abortion needs to be available as an option in America because FREE WILL is a basic human right. It's the kind of right that Americans should be proud of. The right to choose is something that should be regarded as special and unique to Western civilization. Pro-lifers love to talk about freedom, but they recoil in trepidation whenever Americans try to exercise that same freedom in ways that challenge Judeo-Christian beliefs.

It all boils down to religion. We're still living in the dark ages.

[someguy]

an American teenage girl, who got pregnant her junior year of high school, and wants to have an abortion, so she won't get fat and can still be a cheerleader.

Please stop spreading and believing these lies.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

To me there is a difference between a pregnant woman, starving, infected with HIV, living in a country that can't, or won't help, and say an American teenage girl, who got pregnant her junior year of high school, and wants to have an abortion, so she won't get fat and can still be a cheerleader.

There is indeed a difference: the latter is an almost nonexistent group of people. I seriously doubt there are that many girls out there who have all the unprotected sex they want, laugh at the potential consequences, go out and get an abortion when they do get pregnant, and then stroll about their merry way as if nothing happened.

[Preston_79]

Count why are you telling me this? I must have implied somewhere that I'd take away a woman's right to have an abortion which I wouldn't. I'm anti abortion, but I believe some abortions are necessary. I'm just not that hard core about it. This anti abortion view I have isn't rooted in religion. I'm also anti war, but believe sometimes wars have made the world a better place.


Someguy the example I used I got from a girl I went to school with. I know an example worse than that though. I don't think abortion is an easy decision to make. A girl I know went and had plastic surgery on her tits and nose when she was already good looking, and believe me that was a hard decision for her make. Bad things can happen on an operating table and she'd never had surgery before. She did it though. Even though it was unnecessary and she had to recover from it for about a month, she did it anyway. I say out of vanity, and selfishness. My point being even though the examples I used are rare, they still happen, and it's really not that difficult to believe.

Brando, yes the example I used is rare. Did I say otherwise? I know what I didn't say. That girls laugh at the potential consequences of unprotected sex and having an abortion and stroll around merrily.

Sorry if I'm not the textbook example of someone who's anti abortion.


Anything else I can clear up for you all?

[The Heart Collector]

You think a junior in high school's motivation for abortion is "lazyiness" or "shallowness".


And not the fact that they're juniors in high school with zero ability to provide a life for a child.


It's pretty obvious that your views on abortion are thinly veiled misogyny. I'm sorry the juniors in high school didn't pay attention to you or whatever has made you this way.

[Preston_79]

You think a junior in high school's motivation for abortion is "lazyiness" or "shallowness".


And not the fact that they're juniors in high school with zero ability to provide a life for a child.


It's pretty obvious that your views on abortion are thinly veiled misogyny. I'm sorry the juniors in high school didn't pay attention to you or whatever has made you this way.


This particular junior, yes. Zero ability to provide? Her family was wealthy. Who was it that said it takes a village?

I'm a misogynist now am I? LOL! You can pigeon-hole me in to what ever category you want if it makes you feel better. I'm sorry I don't have any examples of men having abortions to give you.

You're sorry the juniors in high school didn't pay more attention to me or whatever made me this way? I don't even know what you mean by that.

[countchocula]

I knew a girl in high school who was on her third abortion by age 17. These people exist, but there is no way of knowing the percentage. I would wager to say that the majority of teenaged girls do not view abortion as a cosmetic quickie.

[Preston_79]

I'm being respectful to each of you right? I wouldn't want you to think I'm making insulting jabs at your opinions and calling you names becuase that's not what I'm trying to do.

Is this cool with everyone, or would my arguments be stronger If I insulted you?

[Preston_79]

I knew a girl in high school who was on her third abortion by age 17. These people exist, but there is no way of knowing the percentage. I would wager to say that the majority of teenaged girls do not view abortion as a cosmetic quickie.


And I would agree.

[someguy]

If you agree then why do you bring it up as some sort of issue despite this 'group' taking up the minority (most likely a very small minority)? Using anecdotes doesn't prove anything because they're entirely subjective. I can easily bring up something like how I know a person whose story will help my side but it's not a good tool at all. You're showing a pretty good example of why anecdotes don't work since you keep adding to the details.

'Girls will get abortions because they don't want to get fat'
'That's not true'
'Well I know a girl who did it for that reason'
'She probably was more concerned about how she could support the child'
'Yeah well her family was rich'

So I'm not gonna bother with your anecdotal evidence because they don't back up your point. And I don't think you're anti-abortion either since you clearly stated that, but I think that you are making blanket statements and baseless assumptions about how women are getting abortions for no good reason and treating the whole thing as a detour in their daily routine every now and then. I really don't see this as a large issue with abortion at all.

[Preston_79]

If you agree then why do you bring it up as some sort of issue despite this 'group' taking up the minority (most likely a very small minority)? Using anecdotes doesn't prove anything because they're entirely subjective. I can easily bring up something like how I know a person whose story will help my side but it's not a good tool at all. You're showing a pretty good example of why anecdotes don't work since you keep adding to the details.

'Girls will get abortions because they don't want to get fat'
'That's not true'
'Well I know a girl who did it for that reason'
'She probably was more concerned about how she could support the child'
'Yeah well her family was rich'

So I'm not gonna bother with your anecdotal evidence because they don't back up your point. And I don't think you're anti-abortion either since you clearly stated that, but I think that you are making blanket statements and baseless assumptions about how women are getting abortions for no good reason and treating the whole thing as a detour in their daily routine every now and then. I really don't see this as a large issue with abortion at all.

I really don't think it's important that you believe my examples. I'm explaining why I believe what I do, not trying to change your mind, just defending my opinion. My opinion was challenged and I'm defending it.
I don't think it's hard to establish that making abortions as available as they are today has allowed some people to take the easy way out instead of stepping up and taking responsibility. I do make assumptions, but I don't think they're baseless.

[countchocula]

Assumptions are baseless when they don't have a base. You haven't cited any data or statistics that support your assumptions. Truth be told, there is no such data. That's why your assumptions are baseless. Most assumptions are baseless by definition.

And I haven't called you any names, so I don't know where you were going with that (unless it wasn't directed at me).

[Preston_79]

Assumptions are baseless when they don't have a base. You haven't cited any data or statistics that support your assumptions. Truth be told, there is no such data. That's why your assumptions are baseless. Most assumptions are baseless by definition.

And I haven't called you any names, so I don't know where you were going with that (unless it wasn't directed at me).


I base my assumptions on what I've seen and experienced. It's pretty simple like that.



On a completely unrelated note. I found a Shmoe on here who logs in under at least two identities. Pretty funny.

[countchocula]

Well, I assumed that you base assumptions on things you've seen and experienced (oh, the irony). It goes without saying. That doesn't make your assumptions accurate or remotely reflective of the truth.

Secondly, if you think has a schmoe has two accounts, you need to inform an administrator.

[Preston_79]

Well, I assumed that you base assumptions on things you've seen and experienced (oh, the irony). It goes without saying. That doesn't make your assumptions accurate or remotely reflective of the truth.

Secondly, if you think has a schmoe has two accounts, you need to inform an administrator.

You were the one that said they were baseless.

My assumptions could be wrong. It's an opinion. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but some think I'm flat out wrong.

[The Postmaster General]

Eh, I can't bring myself to post something so personal....

[someguy]

Wow Bubba for someone so pro-life I'm surprised you would abort your post without hesitation.

[The Postmaster General]

Okay then, I saved my post to my PM box, so I'll post what I wrote as I figure it might serve some purpose -

Here's a personal anecdote - When I was in high school I was sexually active, but always careful in a variety of ways from wearing a condom to sliding my girlfriend toward me when it looked like her head was about to get caught between the mattress and headboard. There were several times when we had what you would call a "scare" and one of those times it culminated into us going so far as to go to a female clinic where abortions were performed, but was mainly a place for young women to go without much attention brought to them. Despite having used pregnancy tests that showed negative, and protecting against impregnation, we were both scared as she was an ace student, and I was doing well enough (not a brainiac like her though) -- my single mom wasn't very well off, and the girl's parents were heading toward bankruptcy, maybe divorce, losing their business, etc. etc.... After talking for hours and hours we decided that abortion seemed to make sense. I saved money working my stocking job at the grocery store and one afternoon we found ourselves at that clinic. It was one of the most unpleasant experiences of my life. Thankfully, we were worried over nothing, and life went on.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that situation like mine should be lumped together and generalized with others' experiences knowing a girl who you heard was having abortions for some reason you deem as ridiculous. Growing up, I've known tons of girls from all walks of life and representing pretty much every clique or stereotype that gets thrown around, and have usually been told very personal and heartfelt things. I've worked in human services for just over 12 years, dealing with women who were homeless, sexually assaulted, abused, thought they were pregnant with alien babies... Not once in my entire life have I ever had personal experiences with the types of experiences people cite when arguing against abortion.

I am pro-life as a choice for myself and my wife feels the same way. This wasn't because of my years of experience, and all the zany anecdotes I have. It's because I don't see the need to kill any of the embryos that were born from my sperm. I have absolutely no reason to poke and prod in anyone else's personal life, and nor do I care to. I've been there, and I get why people choose abortion. If someone chooses it for the "wrong" reasons, that's their dumbness and has nothing to do with all the people who choose it for the right reasons.

My personal opinion on abortion is that until you've gotten pregnant with a child, or until you've gotten someone pregnant with a child, or until you are a doctor who deals with pregnancy, I don't really feel that, despite how much anecdotal experience you think you have, you have no reason to have an opinion on abortion. Say you are pro-life or you are pro-abortion and leave it at that. There's nothing you can say or do that is based on nothing more than hear-say. If you worried about dead babies, go feed a starving child or something that's actually worthwhile, because if you have this strong opinion and aren't even doing that, then you are probably the lazy one.

[Preston_79]

My personal opinion on abortion is that until you've gotten pregnant with a child, or until you've gotten someone pregnant with a child, or until you are a doctor who deals with pregnancy, I don't really feel that, despite how much anecdotal experience you think you have, you have no reason to have an opinion on abortion. Say you are pro-life or you are pro-abortion and leave it at that. There's nothing you can say or do that is based on nothing more than hear-say. If you worried about dead babies, go feed a starving child or something that's actually worthwhile, because if you have this strong opinion and aren't even doing that, then you are probably the lazy one.

I've been having sex with girls for something like half of my life. I think can have an opinion on abortion.

There is nothing more you can say or do that is based on nothing but hear-say? I've been around long enough to experience things directly, not just hear about it through others.

My opinions not that strong. I never said I'd abolish abortion.

And to wrap things up I'm probably lazy if I'm not feeding a starving babies or something worthwhile.

Geez....

[countchocula]

Preston, you can have an opinion, but you can't make sweeping generalizations. That's the point Bubba is making. I mean, it's great that you've fucked a lot of pussy, but that's not relevant. No one is entitled to make sweeping generalizations. It's as simple as that.

[Preston_79]

Preston, you can have an opinion, but you can't make sweeping generalizations. That's the point Bubba is making. I mean, it's great that you've fucked a lot of pussy, but that's not relevant. No one is entitled to make sweeping generalizations. It's as simple as that.

Abortion is practically a non issue to me. I don't lose sleep over fetuses being aborted. My experiences are not relevant to you, but they are to me. I'm not trying to change your mind by presenting evidence, just explaining why I think the way I do.
I'm sharing my thoughts not becuase I feel entitled, but becuase I'm a human. This is what we do on these forums. Because I can't prove my experiences actually happened you don't have to believe they did. I really don't care.

[countchocula]

Fair enough.

[Pentangeli]

In an ideal World I would certainly be pro-life, but we don't live in an ideal World and sometimes we must choose the lesser of two evils.

In cases of rape, and in cases posing a risk to the life of the mother, I consider abortion to be acceptable. The issue of poverty is sometimes a valid reason, but couples should find out if there are couples wanting to adopt the unwanted child.

The argument that a woman can do whatever she wants to her womb is quite frankly idiotic. It is not her womb which is being destroyed. An unborn child is being killed.

Spousal notification should be implemented. If a man has no rights, no say, then he shouldn't be expected to pay child support if he doesn't want the child and the woman does.

Human life is what we're talking about here, it shouldn't be taken lightly.

[countchocula]

Define "life." I don't think anyone is taking the unborn lightly, but what about the life of the born? Does anyone care about the born? To me, the born should take precedence over the unborn.

[BadCoverVersion]

My personal opinion on abortion is that until you've gotten pregnant with a child, or until you've gotten someone pregnant with a child, or until you are a doctor who deals with pregnancy, I don't really feel that, despite how much anecdotal experience you think you have, you have no reason to have an opinion on abortion.

Abortion is practically a non issue to me. I don't lose sleep over fetuses being aborted. My experiences are not relevant to you, but they are to me. I'm not trying to change your mind by presenting evidence, just explaining why I think the way I do. I'm sharing my thoughts not becuase I feel entitled, but becuase I'm a human. This is what we do on these forums.

Define "life." I don't think anyone is taking the unborn lightly, but what about the life of the born? Does anyone care about the born? To me, the born should take precedence over the unborn.

The weird thing is I agree with ALL the above statements.

I am completely pro-choice and yet equally pro-life...but I think the latter is simply part and parcel of my experience of becoming/being a Mother.

A very small minority treat abortion as a contraceptive and I feel for them...something obviously went wrong along the way. For some it's an 'incident', for others it's the most harrowing of procedures.

I think it's easier for men to pass judgement, naturally.

It's the biggest political gray area and the biggest hot potato...and yet politics shouldn't even come into it, in my opinion.

[electriclite]

I am pro-choice in the literal meaning of the word.

If you're in a bad place and STILL want to keep an unplanned child, good on ya and I wish you and your offspring all the best of luck . If you don't, it is not my place to pass judgement and I still wish you the best because whether you keep the child or not, for a woman, once you become pregnant your life is never the same.

[BadCoverVersion]

I am pro-choice in the literal meaning of the word.

If you're in a bad place and STILL want to keep an unplanned child, good on ya and I wish you and your offspring all the best of luck . If you don't, it is not my place to pass judgement and I still wish you the best because whether you keep the child or not, for a woman, once you become pregnant your life is never the same.

Again, agreed. This is a very sensible statement.

It's also 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' in the sense that you shouldn't abort (from a moral standpoint) and yet you're equally condemned if peeps consider you to be draining the economy...yet maybe that is the only way you and your child can realistically survive.

[electriclite]

Again, agreed. This is a very sensible statement.

It's also 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' in the sense that you shouldn't abort (from a moral standpoint) and yet you're equally condemned if peeps consider you to be draining the economy...yet maybe that is the only way you and your child can realistically survive.
That reminds me, I just happen to be watching Juno right now and remembered this insane review for 8 weeks 7 days, blah blah can't remember the exact numbers for the Romanian movie, where it took Juno and Waitress to task for not explaining why their lead females didn't mention or get abortions considering their situations.


Cause those two movies weren't about abortions! One was about a girl learning about relationships and the other was about fear of motherhood. The Romanian film was about an abortion and the procurement of one.

Like abortions are requirements depending on your situation. Whose handing out the orders and setting the standards for this?


The radical fringes get way too much easy access to media outlets.

[The Postmaster General]

I've been having sex with girls for something like half of my life. I think can have an opinion on abortion.

There is nothing more you can say or do that is based on nothing but hear-say? I've been around long enough to experience things directly, not just hear about it through others.

My opinions not that strong. I never said I'd abolish abortion.

And to wrap things up I'm probably lazy if I'm not feeding a starving babies or something worthwhile.

Geez....


Gosh, you are taking this the wrong way and a bit too personally. The only reason I gave a personal anecdote was because we were on the topic of experiences forming opinions, and if we are going to go that direction, we all have a story to tell and a reason to think why we think. The whole point in not making this all based on personal hear say is the reason you just showed, that it turns into a basis for interpretations of personal attack and judgments and less to do with tangible reasons we can all understand.

When I said people who speak out against abortions, I wasn't talking about you having a discussion on a movie message board, I was speaking in terms of people who were exactly as I described. If you fall within that description, so be it, but I'm not going to judge you and just as you are doing, only sharing my personal spin on the whole thing. I'm not sure where I implicated you within that description, and I definitely didn't challenge the number of notches you had on your bed post. Making a joke in the opening of my post was a show of friendship and not some cold blooded shit I say to muthafuckers who I want to make wrong.

The bottom line in my line of thinking is that there's no point judging or condemning people who are in situations that have nothing to do with you. With murder and other such laws, it's a bit different because if you condone one murder, you are condoning other murders, and in turn my be murdered yourself, or a family member might be murdered, etc... That's on top of the moral implications that it's just wrong to murder people, but in the reality of the law and government intervention you are protecting others from being murdered, and morals aren't really supposed to have anything to do with it - as it is about protecting the public interest.

With abortion it's not like someone is going to come and abort your baby against your will, and get off the hook because abortion is legal. There is the argument that abortion IS murder, but that wasn't what you were arguing. Your argument was that most get abortions for the wrong reasons.

The same as you bringing up personal hear-say to say what you said, I did the same thing to say there are lots of different reasons people have to have abortions, and as others have said, no one set of experiences is any more valid than another. I really don't understand your tone toward me as you seem to agree with everything I've said, minus the idea that personal anecdotes don't hold much relevance. Yet for some reason that was the only point you chose not to pursue, and instead used my post as a chance to provide more personal information. That's great and all, because I'm sure there is some relevance in hearing about your sexual exploits and I don't want to diminish that, but as was my original point, it has very little to do with abortion.



To touch on what's been brought up by our resident ladies, I believe that pro-choice and pro-life are not at odd with one another as anti-abortionists would want the law abiding public to believe. Pro-choice would include the right to choose the life of an unborn child. The real terms that should be used are anti-abortion, and pro-abortion. As many enlightened souls have been pushing in recent times, you are hard pressed to find people who are really in favor of killing, regardless of what their views are on in what constitutes life. The idea of pro-life indicates that there are those who are anti-life, and I think only the suicidal/homicidal league fall into that category.

[Preston_79]

Your argument was that most get abortions for the wrong reasons.



I thought you were talking about me till I read that. I didn't share any sexual exploits either, so.......

[The Postmaster General]

I thought you were talking about me till I read that. I didn't share any sexual exploits either, so.......


I'm not quite sure I know what you mean. Long before I said what you quoted me as saying as the point you realized I wasn't talking about you, I said I wasn't taking about you.

By mentioning sexual exploits, I was referring to my bringing up sexual exploits and you responding to the effect of saying that you've had sexual exploits too.

Help me understand what's going on here, because I'm feeling your response to be incongruous to the flow of discussion, and am not ruling out that I'm just not getting what you are trying to communicate. My initial interpretation is that you are not disagreeing with anything I'm saying, but are attempting to be disagreeable, and that doesn't make sense either.

[countchocula]

I thought you were talking about me till I read that. I didn't share any sexual exploits either, so.......

You're not making any sense. Seriously, what kind of response is that? Bubba went out of his way to write detailed, thoughtful posts, and this is your rebuttal?

[Preston_79]

You're not making any sense. Seriously, what kind of response is that? Bubba went out of his way to write detailed, thoughtful posts, and this is your rebuttal?

I'm just repeating myself now.


I've heard your arguments and can understand why so many feel the same way you do. This is why I won't get in front of a woman's right to choose.

I'm not sure how to clarify our differences. I just hold people to a higher standard, and I'm not afraid of being judgmental. An unrealistic standard perhaps.

Abortions happen too frequently in this country.

[Kevin Lockard]

I personally have always found it stupid that both sides in this argument are called "Pro-Life" or "Pro-Choice." Nobody on either side of this debate is Pro-Death or Anti-Choice. People are so fucking stupid. It's Pro or Anti-Abortion, that's it. Easy.

[Homyrrh]

I personally have always found it stupid that both sides in this argument are called "Pro-Life" or "Pro-Choice." Nobody on either side of this debate is Pro-Death or Anti-Choice. People are so fucking stupid. It's Pro or Anti-Abortion, that's it. Easy.
I'm starkly Anti-Choice.

[countchocula]

No one is pro-abortion.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm just repeating myself now.


I've heard your arguments and can understand why so many feel the same way you do. This is why I won't get in front of a woman's right to choose.

I'm not sure how to clarify our differences. I just hold people to a higher standard, and I'm not afraid of being judgmental. An unrealistic standard perhaps.

You haven't been repeating yourself though, you've been throwing more things on the table. Obviously we disagree on the issues, but honestly your last few posts have seem more like you are trying to defend your ego than trying to make points.

It's no big deal, man. If you're okay, then I'm okay. I noticed a couple days ago you came into a thread where a lot of good points were being discussed and said the thread was about nothing but name calling. It didn't make much sense, but that's okay too. I just think that none of us should take these threads so personally or take them as an excuse to make people out to be assholes.

Peace.





I personally have always found it stupid that both sides in this argument are called "Pro-Life" or "Pro-Choice." Nobody on either side of this debate is Pro-Death or Anti-Choice. People are so fucking stupid. It's Pro or Anti-Abortion, that's it. Easy.


Yeah, pretty much. It's just a way to stigmatize those who don't agree that abortions should never happen, ever. It's just a way to use words incorrectly as an attempt to make those who disagree with a political view point out to be horrible individuals. See also the War on Drugs.



I'm starkly Anti-Choice.

It was you people who took Pepsi out of the soda fountains at school.

[Homyrrh]

It was you people who took Pepsi out of the soda fountains at school. No, because I'm also Pro-Death. I can't tell you what was put into it. Because than I'd have to kill you. And since I saved you, I would not want to waste my effort.

[The Postmaster General]

No, because I'm also Pro-Death. I can't tell you what was put into it. Because than I'd have to kill you. And since I saved you, I would not want to waste my effort.


That's weird, my doctor said something similar after my prostate exam.

[gayzilla]

at least they died doing what they loved

[gayzilla]

can I get banned for showing extremely poor taste?

[Vong]

can I get banned for showing extremely poor taste?

Unfortunately, no. I've tried numerous times to ban Bubba because of that...doesn't work.

:rolleyes:

[Homyrrh]

That's weird, my doctor said something similar after my prostate exam.
"I was raped! Dr. Peterman put his fingers in my ass..."

[Homyrrh]

can I get banned for showing extremely poor taste?
Most of the not-so-leftist users get banned because of posts on this board...

:rolleyes::D

[someguy]

Unfortunately, no. I've tried numerous times to ban Bubba because of that...doesn't work.

:rolleyes:

me-ow vong