People don't have a clue what they are writing about...

[ak]

It seems to me that one of the most frequent topics in this particular forum is that which asks people for help with film ideas/titles/anything for their scripts/film. It doesn't end there - People ask questions about character names, asking general questions about their "ideas" and so on....

To me, this seems a little sloppy. This is absolutely not an attack on any one particular person, but it just feels to me like not many people really know their ideas back to front. Which, of course - You need to know.
You need to be in the spirit of your film - YOU know your idea best (or should), no one else does. If you don't know what title to give your film, let it flow through the story naturally. Let character names flow naturally. Help is perfectly fine, but some people ask for too much help.

I've been constantly evolving a film idea for the last three years - Planning it, changing it - All in my head. Only now am I going to start writing the script. This is why I think my idea is a very succesful one. I know it back to front - All the characters, their motivations, emotions, etc. I know it back to front, and then some. I haven't really conferred with anyone about it - What I should include, etc. I know it all.

I'm not saying "Hey, I'm better than you", even though it may sound like it. All I'm saying is that people write their scripts, and expect them to work, realising that they don't even know their story, or are thinking about the next project before they've finished this one. This is all too evident from some of the stories I've read on this forum.
If we are to generate a great few generation of writers, people need to understand that the follow-through from that idea is of ut-most importance.

Of course, there are a few genius types that can brandish a script one off, perhaps like Tarantino, and it is very brilliant. This is a talent posessed by the greatest though. Not many of them exist.

Perhaps many of you will not like what I have just said. I don't mind - Enlighten me with your words. I was just getting something off my chest which is true to a lot of people.



[This message has been edited by ak (edited 07-21-2002).]

[actressgirl_05]

This paragraph sucked so I erased it...

Yes, I know many of us ask for help, but what's so wrong about that? In fact, asking for help increases your writing abilities. It gives you another way to look at things.

So did this one. http://www.joblo.com/ubb/smile.gif

actressgirl_05

[This message has been edited by actressgirl_05 (edited 07-21-2002).]

[ak]

I'm not really saying "This is how I do it, so you should do it". What I'm saying is - People ask for help in writing entire sections of scripts, or working out bits of stories, or whatever.

Asking for help on characters names, isn't so bad. But it's when people really don't know what they're doing that gets me....They ask for too much help.

Perhaps because of my mood at that point, that some of my judgements were a little harsh, but people should just focus and sit back and really really think about their ideas, instead of just typing and hoping for the best.

As one of my friends just pointed out, collaboration is perfectly fine, asking for help is perfectly fine, but some people ask for a little more than they should, considering it's their idea.

Important Note: When I say I've been evolving my idea for three years, that simply doesn't mean everyone should do this. I'm just trying to say that a little more thought and effort pays great dividends. A few years may seem a little long to most, and that's fine. Not every idea takes years to develop.

I don't want to edit my post to take away what I've said, but a discussion with my friend made me realise that some of my point were a little hasty. But I still stand by my main rant.

[This message has been edited by ak (edited 07-21-2002).]

[herculeez]

I think actress girl is taking ak's post a little TOO much to mind.
He's not telling you how to write your scripts at all. I totally agree with what he is saying here.
There is nothing wrong with asking for help as you say, but surely only for certain bits e.g a characters name, maybe a suitable destianation setting, but sometimes, people in this forum can go as far as to say
"Can anyone come up with a twist to end my movie for me?"
Surely this is going too far.
You wanna make it your work, if you start it on your own then try to do the majority of the work on your own, especially for the major parts.
But someone writing the plot and someone writing the specifics is just a collaboration and then it's not a singular effort and it's not "your" movie.
I'm only stressing this because i know for a fact that i get a great feeling when i work on a script on my own and finish it i get a great feeling. When i finish i KNOW it's not perfect...i KNOW it doesn't measure up to being good enough to be filmed. But i will have completed my first draft and that's an idea in the bag. From here i will send it to my mates and ask them what they thnk about it and for them to critique it.
Some people don't even give themselves a chance..they just ask other people to do the work for them!!!
That annoys me personally.
Of course there is nothing wrong with doing that, but I would certainly not do it.
Anyway, ak isn't telling you how to write scripts, maybe he's just suggesting to you that you should think your idea through thoroughly, give a solo effort just like you started with, if you can't think of something to add, sit back and analyse your movie. Read through it, get to know your movie more, make it as if the movie actually happened in your life, if it DID actually happen in your life add as much as you can remember, the smallest details can be crucial. Something will always come to your head once you get to know your movie personally.
When you finish your first draft then try and give an external entity a try and ask for their assistance.
Again, not telling you how to write a script, just a suggestion, it ONE way to do it and also i feel better when i put my ideas back together and usually your friends are supportive, they'll tell you what's slightly wrong but they'll back up your idea and that's a great feeling.

[PhantomRhyter]

ak,

I understand where you are coming from brother, and I know you meant well. Of course you realise that some of the greatest ideas to have made it to film were collabourative works, not the efforts of any single genius. I know that when I was interested in filmmaking, I had friends who shared that interest with me and some of our best ideas came about during our 'bull sessions' where we'd bounce ideas off one another for a new story, or to develope further one already on the 'burner'.

If you'll read a lot of the posts here, you'll also note that a lot of these aspiring screenwriters and filmmakers do not have many friends around them who share their interest and desire to make films. That's where a site like this one comes in.

I think that most of the people who post here do so to share ideas with others to find support and inspiration, and yes to bounce ideas off one another in a good old fashioned-- and fun-- 'bull session', improved as it were by the wonderful possibilities of the world wide web (another thing me and my friends did'nt have).

Now I did'nt make it to fulfillment of my dreams, there was'nt many around me where I could look to for encouragement. But I'm not going to moan and cry over the past, nor blame my failures on 'nobody supported me' or 'I was too poor to buy good equipment' or any other such nonsense. The reason I failed was because i was not true to my dream to start with, so evidently I did'nt want it bad enough.

What I do hope to do, however, is at least try to fill one of the voids that could not be filled in my day (as such incredible media of communication as the www did not exist in my day). I hope and pray for all the kids on this site (don't mean 'kids' in a condesending way, but believe me there'll come a day when someone calling you a 'kid' will be quite flattering http://www.joblo.com/ubb/wink.gif) I hope that every one of them fulfills their dream and anything I can do to help them, to encourage them, to inspire them, and mainly to give them hope to hang on and stay true to their dreams I will do.

Now for a crusty old 'maybe-could-have-been' (since I really can't call myself a 'has-been' as I was never in the business of filmmaking) it gives me yet another chance to sort of relive the days of the 'bull session' and maybe by helping these folks out as much as I can, a part of me will live the dream after all.

Chills,
PhantomRhyter

[ak]

Great reply, and I thoroughly respect it.

I'm not saying anything against people's participation in this forum, as it's is a very handy tool indeed. I'm just trying to understand people's situations with writing films.
It's always great to help a person. I like to call it steering a person in the right direction, if I can achieve that.
A collaboration is amongst people who really understand what they are dealing with, so I guess I couldn't understand why people are asking for so much help when no person could possibly understand their idea fully.

[actressgirl_05]

ak,
I took your post way out of context. I wasn't really sure what you were saying. I thought you meant the little things.

It is totally wrong for someone to ask about twists and what would be the best thing to happen next. Because, if you do that, you aren't really writing it. You're just stealing someone's idea.

I guess earlier, I was just trying to find someone to be mad at. I don't know why I do that sometimes.

actressgirl_05

[PhantomRhyter]

actressgirl_05,

There's nothing really wrong with bouncing ideas off one another here (or I should say, I'd hate to think that would be wrong). There's nothing really wrong with asking anothers opinion as to what twist and turn a story might take. It's not really 'stealing someone elses idea' if they don't mind to give the suggestion, knowing it may be used.

I offer suggestions from time to time, and I am tickled pink, when someone says that they like it and are going to use it (sorta makes me feel useful). I just hope sometimes people don't think I'm trying to 'take over' their story. I can assure everyone that's not the case, but I get really excited by ideas and forget myself a lot of times.

But what I'm trying to get at is that this forum provides aspiring filmmakers and screenwriters from all over the world to come together and share ideas, and participate in the benefits of collabouration that otherwise they would not be able to enjoy (we sure did'nt in my day, and if you did'nt have like-minded friends close by--well you were just outta luck).

People talk about film schools and screenwriting courses, but if we really try we could reap most benefits from these things for the relative in-expense of posting our thoughts and ideas right here. I like to think y'all got a good thang going with this site.

Chills,
PhantomRhyter

[Ronaldinho]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PhantomRhyter:

People talk about film schools and screenwriting courses, but if we really try we could reap most benefits from these things for the relative in-expense of posting our thoughts and ideas right here. I like to think y'all got a good thang going with this site.
</font>

Not trying to pick fights with you but...

One of the things you get at film school is feedback from professionals. That is much more valuable than feedback from friends and well-wishers.

I think this board is definitely a good thing. I think it offers a nice safe environment to get encouragement. I do, however, think that most readers aren't very critical (not that there's anything wrong with that--people just need to understand who they're getting feedback from, and what it means) and there's a strong tendency to be nice.

There's also a few people who give, in my opinion, downright wrong advice for those who would eventually like to work in the film industry--be in Hollywood or independent.

I do think that people sometimes take the easy way out in asking for feedback so early. If it helps, great, but it's much, much easier (as I suspect most people on this group are discovering for themselves) to write an interesting introduction to a movie than to write a whole feature-length piece. Sooner or later--if you want to be a professional--you're going to have to bear down and start writing full-length pieces that work in their entirety, rather than just a strong beginning.

[PhantomRhyter]

Ronaldinho,

Now why would I think that you're trying to pick fights with me? http://www.joblo.com/ubb/wink.gif

Yes you opinion --as far as I am concerned anyway-- is duly noted, and like most others here I'm sure taken on a 'for what's its worth' basis.

Yes, fim schools and such are good, IF one can afford them. Not everyone passes the rigid requirements to get scholarships and grants. This doe not always mean that they are 'devoid' of genuine talent. Some people bloom later than others and their talents are not fully realised --sometimes-- until they reach thier 40s. Schools tend to support the youngest who are ready. Some of the kids who post here will never see the inside of a film school, so we do the best we can to encourage them here.

Maybe we can be overgenerous with our efforts to instill confidence in them, but I believe that each one has the potential, and if I can do anything to encourage that to grow, I will do so and I will do it humbly and right here than you.

Chills,
PhantomRhyter

[This message has been edited by PhantomRhyter (edited 07-23-2002).]

[Tuukka]

I agree with Ronaldinho to a certain point. But it should be remembered that most people who write here are non-experienced amateurs and they need encouragement. Like it has been said in this thread, many of the 13-20 year old kids in here don't know ANYONE who is interested about filmmaking or even about movies in general besides the newest Adam Sandler effort. So I think we SHOULD be nice to them.

However, if you realize that somebody actually has the talent and experience to write something worthwhile, you should be harder on them. They won't get any better without ANALYTICAL criticism. There is no mind in putting somebody down, but some intelligent, constructive, negative criticism is always needed.

Sometimes people give advice that actually makes the script worse, but that happens all the time in Hollywood as well... Besides, if someone gives an obviously wrong advice, usually others point it out.

Only about 5% of the people who write their scripts on this forum actually are good enough to potentially make a good script and sell it. There ARE really talented writers. And the other 95% are not necessarily untalented, just inexperienced. If they want to get better, they just have to write and write.

And that is the point: One of the most important goals for this place is to make people to write. Encouragement is very important here, even if it might seem people are sometimes too easy on others.

[Tuukka]

A schmoe called Lexell Studios is a good example about this. There is a script of his called "Demension Room" in this forum and it would be very easy to rip the whole script apart, if you analyze it in artistical sense. I wrote comments to his script and I found a lot of problems with it. But I don't want to get too picky and critical. Why? BECAUSE THE KID IS 12 YEARS OLD AND HE IS ACTUALLY WRITING SCREENPLAYS.

Now how many 12 year old kids actually do that? I started when I was 17. And I was horrible in the beginning, even if I have always been a talented writer. If he keeps on writing, he could be a hell of a writer when he is 17. And I only started when I was that old.

So I definitely want to encourage him at what he is doing.

[Ronaldinho]

Tukka has a valuable point--which is why my fiercest criticism here has been for those who give bad advice, rather than to writers.

I do think it is possible to hurt someone with too much encouragement. Screenwriting is a hard profession. The majority of working screenwriters do not make very much money, and there's a tendency to look at screenwriting like winning the lottery: all you have to do is write a great script and somone will hand you a million dollars.

Given most of the posters we're talking about here, I think Phantom is more or less right. A lot of encouragement, with a little nudge in the right direction from time to time. As they grow, they should learn on their own--there are very few 17-year-old writers who like what they wrote when they were 15, at least not many good ones, because a lot of learning goes on during tha time.

Film schools are expensive, but I think you're wrong about them only being open to the young. (I know several people who entered film school in their thirties and fourties. Were they among the older people in their classes? Sure. Were they completely out of place? No.)

I do think, however, that young writers should push themselves. To me, that means writing a whole film, not just an opening (even if it's a short--learning what makes a story feel complete and whole is important). At some point it means writing original material, rather than fan fiction (although I don't think there's any problem with a 15-year-old writing fanfiction, so long as they're writing).

And it also means learning to trust your instincts--which means not asking for help every step of the way. Because in the end, if you're going to carry a project to completion, you have to believe in it. You have to need to write it. You won't be able to dedicate yourself to something the way it takes to finish truly good material if you're writing it because "the board thought this was a good idea."

Again, there's a fine line here. Feedback and encouragement are good, but so is standing on your own two feet. I know that for myself, I never show anyone anything that isn't as good as I think I can make it. Why? Because then, and only then, can I expect them to point out things that I missed, which will help me learn. But I'm also older than most of the posters here, and pushing myself harder. (Well, not this week. I'm sick as a dog. But that's another story).

But I do think people would benefit more from the feedback they got here if they finished things--even shorts--and posted those, rather than postings and fragments, all else being equal.