MPAA is Coming After BitTorrent Users!

[God of War]

Followup to the Wolverine topic.

Ever since "X-Men Origins: Wolverine" leaked online, 20th Century Fox, the FBI and the MPAA started a manhunt for the person responsible for stealing a copy of the yet to be released film.

http://www.worstpreviews.com/images/headlines/headline12064.jpg

Since "Wolverine" is shared through BitTorrent sites, the MPAA has been doing everything in its power to obtain private emails of TorrentSpy and The Pirate Bay, in order to dig up dirt on their owners and users. One way the organization has been doing this is by hiring a hacker back in 2005, who has previously configured the TorrentSpy mail server to copy and forward all of the site's emails to his own Gmail account. The 34 pages of information he gathered was then sold to the MPAA for $15,000. TorrentSpy's owner later sued the MPAA, arguing that they had spied on him illegally, but he ended up losing the case.

The court ruled that the MPAA did not technically intercept them under the WireTap Act, but TorrentSpy is calling the decision a "dangerous attempt to circumvent privacy laws." If the ruling is upheld, it will basically legalize the unauthorized copying of other people's emails, which raises serious privacy concerns. TorrentSpy has now filed a brief at the Court of Appeals and that the MPAA is expected to do the same in the near future. From then on it can take up to a year before the appeal is heard in court.

The point of this story is that if the law sides with the MPAA, everyone who has downloaded a copy of "Wolverine" or uses sharing sites could be at risk.


http://www.worstpreviews.com/

[ericdraven]

uhm, god of war, you sure like to post articles from Worst Previews.

[Cronos]

If you're dumb enough to use P2P to get something like that, you deserve to get caught.

[Gullom]

More power to justice! I've had my intellectual property stolen and I'm all for anti-piracy.

Shame on all who take copy written property before paying for it, even if you pay for it later. Don't take what you haven't paid for yet, or never will pay for.

It was never yours to take in the first place, or the owner of the copy right would have handed it out on a silver platter.

[shoe1985]

It is not your property to begin with, so what gives anyone the right to steal someone else's property? These companies invest a lot of money to create art to be seen by the masses for a price. If you don't want to pay, don't watch. Go sit in your room and stare at the wall, which was paid for by, more than likely your parents, and was someone else's creative idea of what that wall and room should look like.

In other words, you do not own the property, so I am 100% behind this. If you are stupid and greedy enough to take someone else's work, you deserve to get sued and loose everything you own. Pay for what you want, otherwise, you are just a criminal and deserve what you get. You know it is illegal, so, don't do it.

You can use the tired excuse that the director, writer, or in the business of music, that the artist doesn't care. The problem is they signed contracts to create this work for a company, who will then sell it to us, then have money to invest in new ideas/scripts/music.

[Sad man]

There are certain movies that are only available through illegal downloads. I'm talking about movies most people haven't heard of. Sometimes my professors make me watch movies that are nowhere to be found but online. So should I respect the law and fail my classes instead? I don't think so.

In the case of something like Wolverine I don't give a fuck. I think it's dumb for people to download it when it's not even the finished product. But I don't feel bad about Fox either. This is a huge company worth millions. And it's been proven before that a movie that's available online doesn't affect its box office. If people want to see it, they go to the theater. Illegal downloading is a bigger problem in other countries. Take Argentina, where I live, for example. People rarely go to the movies. Most people just download the films. This is due to several factors: 1. Movie tickets are around $20. That's a lot of money, especially when the country is going through a crisis. 2. Most movies take a long time to get here. While this is not an excuse, it's understandable. On my part, I rarely go to the movies anymore. I pretty much spend my money at the video store where it's cheaper, unless we are talking about a movie I'm dying to see. But, like I already said, there are times where I have no choice but to download something. And it's not even me, I ask someone else to do it for me because my computer sucks.

[adamjohnson]

If I let my friend borrow a DVD, is that stealing from rental places like Blockbuster?

[shoe1985]

There are certain movies that are only available through illegal downloads. I'm talking about movies most people haven't heard of. Sometimes my professors make me watch movies that are nowhere to be found but online. So should I respect the law and fail my classes instead? I don't think so.

In the case of something like Wolverine I don't give a fuck. I think it's dumb for people to download it when it's not even the finished product. But I don't feel bad about Fox either. This is a huge company worth millions. And it's been proven before that a movie that's available online doesn't affect its box office. If people want to see it, they go to the theater. Illegal downloading is a bigger problem in other countries. Take Argentina, where I live, for example. People rarely go to the movies. Most people just download the films. This is due to several factors: 1. Movie tickets are around $20. That's a lot of money, especially when the country is going through a crisis. 2. Most movies take a long time to get here. While this is not an excuse, it's understandable. On my part, I rarely go to the movies anymore. I pretty much spend my money at the video store where it's cheaper, unless we are talking about a movie I'm dying to see. But, like I already said, there are times where I have no choice but to download something. And it's not even me, I ask someone else to do it for me because my computer sucks.

Your professors should indicate where to find the movies, legally. If they cannot, then you go to the Dean, and the situation is solved.

So, because Fox is worth so much money, it is ok to take from them? What if you were a business owner, and people decided to steal from you, is that ok? you are worth a lot of money not like taking a few things here and there won't hurt you.

If you don't like the price, don't pay it, just don't complain about it. You can do other things besides watch movies. You don't own the copyright. It is not yours.

So, if you get sued, take it like a man, and pay the massive fine. Don't complain about it. You knew what you were getting into. Just like nobody should complain about what the MPAA is doing. They are protecting these companies because if nobody does, they won't exist.

Being that this is a movie site, and with many potential screenwriters, directors, actors, and so on, you would think the response would be positive for this. They are protecting your future.

What is the point of creating something if people will just steal it?

[NuclearMisfit]

Why is X-Men Origins Wolverine such a hot button topic? People are acting like it was an academy award winning film thatll go down in the annals of Hollywood as being the best film ever. Its almost like they robbed Fort Knox.

If your that dumb to get on a torrent site to watch it then its your own fault.

[BlownCamaro]

There are certain members here who will argue that you can not get caught using BT, they are wrong of course. Newshosting is the way to go kiddies!

It is such a big deal (Wolverine) because of how early it was leaked. A big "blockbuster" type film usually does not have a good copy come out until a month before the DVD release unless it is an oscar contender and you might get a good screener. For a good looking workprint to come out this early is just a first really.

[JohnLocke2342]

Why is X-Men Origins Wolverine such a hot button topic? People are acting like it was an academy award winning film thatll go down in the annals of Hollywood as being the best film ever. Its almost like they robbed Fort Knox.


Amen man.. well said. Enough with Wolverine... it won't even cross 300 mill.

[The Postmaster General]

If I let my friend borrow a DVD, is that stealing from rental places like Blockbuster?


There's a difference between lending and copying.

[crayon]

In other words, you do not own the property, so I am 100% behind this. If you are stupid and greedy enough to take someone else's work, you deserve to get sued and loose everything you own. Pay for what you want, otherwise, you are just a criminal and deserve what you get. You know it is illegal, so, don't do it.
.
I can understand peoples frustration at piracy and its implications. However what you're saying is a bit extreme. For someone seemingly so concerned about justice, it is a bit draconian you think copyright infringers should lose "everything they own". If one offence such as that makes you a criminal, then so does knowingly exceeding the speed limit, as does jaywalking, or smoking in an area where it clearly says 'no smoking'. ALL CRIMINALS. Thus they should all lose everything they own I suppose, because isn't that what criminals deserve?

[Dr Manhattan]

I'm a bit surprised by the anti-piracy posts here. Not everyone is rich and can afford to pay for every film they want to watch. I'm a student, don't have a job and love watching films. I download them. I own quite a few DVD's too, but I bought them only after I'd watched the films in the first place - after I downloaded them.
Some of you need to stop being so butthurt about Fox or some other company losing money. Its ridiculous.

[shoe1985]

I can understand peoples frustration at piracy and its implications. However what you're saying is a bit extreme. For someone seemingly so concerned about justice, it is a bit draconian you think copyright infringers should lose "everything they own". If one offence such as that makes you a criminal, then so does knowingly exceeding the speed limit, as does jaywalking, or smoking in an area where it clearly says 'no smoking'. ALL CRIMINALS. Thus they should all lose everything they own I suppose, because isn't that what criminals deserve?

You are stealing from someone else. I have no probably if the person you stole from takes everything you own. You should know better. What you described was a whole other scenario, and illegal crime.

If they don't take everything they own, give them a nice $250,000 fine. This way the person has a chance to survive. If they can't pay it back, get another job, or two or three more. The only way to slow down piracy is to putting harsher penalties.

You don't understand that this is not your property.

I'm a bit surprised by the anti-piracy posts here. Not everyone is rich and can afford to pay for every film they want to watch. I'm a student, don't have a job and love watching films. I download them. I own quite a few DVD's too, but I bought them only after I'd watched the films in the first place - after I downloaded them.
Some of you need to stop being so butthurt about Fox or some other company losing money. Its ridiculous.

Who says you have to be rich to watch a movie? You can rent movies, sign-up for a Netflix account. If you don't have a job, find one. You are a student, so someone is taking care of your living expensive, mom and dad? Ask them for help with a Netflix account, lie and say you need it for school.

So, in your last paragraph you say who cares if a company loses money. Being a student you are expecting a company to hire you. What if you get an offer from Fox to work for them, you accept it. A month later they go out of business because they no longer make enough profit from their films? More people now download them illegally, and this has killed their profits, and they are now losing money.

Maybe if you owned a business and had these things done to you, you would understand a little better. Or if you had a job, and were a higher ranked employee, and were affected by this, you would understand.

People on here should be worried about piracy because most are probably in film school. This will hurt you in the long run if nothing is done about it.

[crayon]

You are stealing from someone else. I have no probably if the person you stole from takes everything you own. You should know better. What you described was a whole other scenario, and illegal crime.

If they don't take everything they own, give them a nice $250,000 fine. This way the person has a chance to survive. If they can't pay it back, get another job, or two or three more. The only way to slow down piracy is to putting harsher penalties.

You don't understand that this is not your property.

Don't tell me what I do and do not understand. I understand intellectual property, I understand when I open a book the words I read are legally owned by the author. I understand pretty much any creative product is automatically copyrighted as one's intellectual property. By downloading a movie one is illegally attaining such property, I am aware of this. Don't make me out to be some sort of ignorant moron.

You're still being ridiculous.

People charged with theft don't get such heavy penalties. It is not their property either that they take, what you are suggesting is not just a harsh penalty it is simply exorbitant. Obviously criminal punishments are in place as a deterrent, however law has a reformative purpose as well and if anyone ever suffered from your punishments, I don't see how they would ever be reformed or become a productive member of society, they'd be on the street. I guess I don't subscribe to your perverted brand of justice, luckily for us neither does any government, nor will one ever thankfully.

On topic: The main people these studios and the MPAA are going to target, are the distributors. I'm well aware of how torrent software works and that technically one could try and prove that everyone is technically distributing the file due to the way the system works. However this is where they have hit a road block, they have had hell trying to prove that torrent sites are encouraging and actively promoting downloading of movies because they do not host any of these files. In the US I think there have been quite a few people (even children, apparently youthful naivete is no defence) who have had to pay up generally 4/5 figure sums to settle. For the most part studios have just been sending out lots of warning letters, evidently they don't want to take such drastic action as you may recommend, but it isn't really worth the resources when you consider the size of the problem, it couldn't be done.

This article is an interesting read:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/the-hollywood-fiction-about-piracy-20090408-a0y5.html?page=-1
The impact of piracy is exaggerated, although I'm not denying there is an impact. The writer in that article claims there is no effect on the box office takings, that may be a bit far, but he does raise some valid points. I'm aware piracy probably has a more significant impact upon DVD sales but it's being blown out of proportion.

I'm not denying it is a crime, I'm not denying it costs the film industry. I just feel your purported punishments are ludicrous.

[Dr Manhattan]

Who says you have to be rich to watch a movie? You can rent movies, sign-up for a Netflix account. If you don't have a job, find one. You are a student, so someone is taking care of your living expensive, mom and dad? Ask them for help with a Netflix account, lie and say you need it for school.

So, in your last paragraph you say who cares if a company loses money. Being a student you are expecting a company to hire you. What if you get an offer from Fox to work for them, you accept it. A month later they go out of business because they no longer make enough profit from their films? More people now download them illegally, and this has killed their profits, and they are now losing money.

Maybe if you owned a business and had these things done to you, you would understand a little better. Or if you had a job, and were a higher ranked employee, and were affected by this, you would understand.

People on here should be worried about piracy because most are probably in film school. This will hurt you in the long run if nothing is done about it.

I don't have a job right now because I can't have a job right now, but thats a different subject. I can get netflix if I wanted to, yes. But to me, it would be a waste of money. Why spend money on something that you can so easily obtain for free? Also, with netflix you have limits. Maybe I want to watch more than two films a month or whatever.
People are going to download films as long as good quality films are on the internet, you having a rant about it here isn't going to stop it. Everyone has their reasons for doing so and piracy won't be beaten. Even companies are starting to realise that and having films available for download. Its just that they expect you to pay.

Once I'm out of school after my exams in a few weeks, I'll have a job and consequently more money. Then, I'd probably start paying for film and music. But right now, I'm perfectly alright with downloading them.

[adamjohnson]

There's a difference between lending and copying.

Most people dont download a movie and then burn it to disc. They download it, watch it, and delete it.

So, no, it's exactly the same.


When VHS came out they did the exact same thing. They tried to prevent piracy and theft of their VHS tapes by adding that little tab on the side of tapes, but every two year old knows how to get around that.

When DVD burners came out, they tried again to prevent piracy by encrypting the data, but theres a pretty simple workaround to that too.

Now another new technology has come out, this thing called the internet (I hear it's really catching on, too) and they're trying to curb piracy. It will also inevitably fail, only it will probably be more spectacularly this time, as they will be flat out alienating (and suing) fans and consumers.

[Gullom]

There are certain movies that are only available through illegal downloads. I'm talking about movies most people haven't heard of. Sometimes my professors make me watch movies that are nowhere to be found but online. So should I respect the law and fail my classes instead? I don't think so. If the teacher directs you to where he got his source material, and it's illegal it's your duty as a law abiding citizen to report his piracy and stand up for what's right. http://mpaa.org/ReportPiracy/ReportPiracy.aspx

In the case of something like Wolverine I don't give a ***. I think it's dumb for people to download it when it's not even the finished product. But I don't feel bad about Fox either. This is a huge company worth millions. And it's been proven before that a movie that's available online doesn't affect its box office. ...But, like I already said, there are times where I have no choice but to download something. And it's not even me, I ask someone else to do it for me because my computer sucks.You should feel bad that someone was robbed of what was rightfully theirs! I've had my intellectual property stolen and was touted as someone else's. I was upset that someone was re-directing money I rightfully should have been earning, into his back account. Pirating sux!

You have no choice?! That's the biggest load of crap; no one is forcing you to go find the movie through illegal channels. No one is forcing you to click download. If a pirated means is the only available means to watch a movie, then don't do it. And because of NetFlix and other online sources you can use to pay for viewing a movie, as inconvenient as it is to your wallet to pay for your entertainment, it's better that we are all honest anyway.


I'm a bit surprised by the anti-piracy posts here. Not everyone is rich and can afford to pay for every film they want to watch. I'm a student, don't have a job and love watching films. I download them. I own quite a few DVD's too, but I bought them only after I'd watched the films in the first place - after I downloaded them.
Some of you need to stop being so butthurt about Fox or some other company losing money. Its ridiculous.No, you need to respect that people deserve the money they put into their intellectual and copy written property. No retail store would tolerate you leaving with something from their store and then paying for it 2 months down the road.

Movie companies are not an exception to "pay now get something in exchange." People have this mistaken reasoning that the company is so large they won't miss the money I don't chip in. Well when the majority starts taking this perspective, guess what... movie company profits start declining.


I don't have a job right now because I can't have a job right now, but thats a different subject. I can get netflix if I wanted to, yes. But to me, it would be a waste of money. Why spend money on something that you can so easily obtain for free? So, you are above the law? Please tell me what you are doing that allows you to not be viewed by the FBI and other entities as a criminal.

[Gullom]

Most people dont download a movie and then burn it to disc. They download it, watch it, and delete it.

So, no, it's exactly the same.


When VHS came out they did the exact same thing. They tried to prevent piracy and theft of their VHS tapes by adding that little tab on the side of tapes, but every two year old knows how to get around that.

When DVD burners came out, they tried again to prevent piracy by encrypting the data, but there's a pretty simple workaround to that too.

Now another new technology has come out, this thing called the internet (I hear it's really catching on, too) and they're trying to curb piracy. It will also inevitably fail, only it will probably be more spectacularly this time, as they will be flat out alienating (and suing) fans and consumers.


Educating people that distributing and downloading pirated movies and media is the first step to fighting piracy. No amount of safety guards in a DVD, or the web will defeat piracy. It comes down to peoples' will and desire. Until that is overcome, piracy will continue.

[ArtFactoryRadio]

Most people dont download a movie and then burn it to disc. They download it, watch it, and delete it.

I would always prefer to watch an actual DVD. Way better picture, way better sound, etc. However, I am a student who is paying his own way through school, I have little leisure money to spend on movies. I go to school in a small, conservative town. It's difficult to find things that aren't Michael Bay movies and cookie-cutter chick flicks (even at the school library).

If I want to watch a buried classic like Putney Swope, I have no option but to download it. If I want to see a Felini film, I have to download it. And I do exactly what you said. I watch it, then delete it. If my library did have a copy of it and I watched it and returned it without paying a dime for it, is that any different from downloading/deleting?

[adamjohnson]

Educating people that distributing and downloading pirated movies and media is the first step to fighting piracy. No amount of safety guards in a DVD, or the web will defeat piracy. It comes down to peoples' will and desire. Until that is overcome, piracy will continue.

I'm not sure you can hear me up there on your soapbox, but mankind has been battling theft since we crawled out of the oceans.

Theft will continue. Accept it.

[Gullom]

If I want to watch a buried classic like Putney Swope, I have no option but to download it. If I want to see a Felini film, I have to download it. And I do exactly what you said. I watch it, then delete it. If my library did have a copy of it and I watched it and returned it without paying a dime for it, is that any different from downloading/deleting?This is where lines can start getting grey. If the film is no longer in circulation and you want to view the movie and downloading it is the only means left to use to see it, I honestly don't know what you'd do in that situation.

I do however stand behind the fact that even though the movie is only available via download the act of downloading is still illegal. Even though downloading, watching and deleting is still the same bahavior as using the library; the act of downloading is still obtaining a pirated copy of said movie.

[Gullom]

I'm not sure you can hear me up there on your soapbox, but mankind has been battling theft since we crawled out of the oceans.

Theft will continue. Accept it.I just said that until people change themselves stealing will continue. I'm in agreement with you.

I'm not on a soap box, I've personally been effected by someone stealing my intellectual property. I've been put in the same position as anyone that has been affected by piracy.

[adamjohnson]

I just said that until people change themselves stealing will continue. I'm in agreement with you.

I'm not on a soap box, I've personally been effected by someone stealing my intellectual property. I've been put in the same position as anyone that has been affected by piracy.

As have I. Being a photographer on the internet, people download my photos every day instead of paying for them. Theres nothing anyone can do about it.

[dellamorte dellamore]

then that also means , by that logic , that the people who get caught stealing shouldn't whine and just accept the punishment for downloading and sharing copyrighted material .

[Gullom]

As have I. Being a photographer on the internet, people download my photos every day instead of paying for them. Theres nothing anyone can do about it.So, are you going to lie down and not stand up for anti-piracy and voice the fact you believe it's wrong for people to steal from you and others that rightfully deserve not to be stolen from?

[Gullom]

then that also means , by that logic , that the people who get caught stealing shouldn't whine and just accept the punishment for downloading and sharing copyrighted material .I'm not sure who's comment(s) you are responding to, but yes, you are right. People that are busted for breaking the law that weep, wail, and gnash their teeth for being caught for breaking the law remind me of those people in COPS.

Those people that are fighting the officers physically and verbally. You know they broke the law, especially when it's caught on camera and they look all the more stupid for having a tantrum, like a 5 year old.

The Tantrum doesn't excuse them or erase the fact they screwed up, it makes them look immature and silly.

[adamjohnson]

So, are you going to lie down and not stand up for anti-piracy and voice the fact you believe it's wrong for people to steal from you and others that rightfully deserve not to be stolen from?

Theres nothing that CAN be done. The old adage with us, "If you dont want your photos stolen, find a new career"

[shoe1985]

Don't tell me what I do and do not understand. I understand intellectual property, I understand when I open a book the words I read are legally owned by the author. I understand pretty much any creative product is automatically copyrighted as one's intellectual property. By downloading a movie one is illegally attaining such property, I am aware of this. Don't make me out to be some sort of ignorant moron.

You're still being ridiculous.

People charged with theft don't get such heavy penalties. It is not their property either that they take, what you are suggesting is not just a harsh penalty it is simply exorbitant. Obviously criminal punishments are in place as a deterrent, however law has a reformative purpose as well and if anyone ever suffered from your punishments, I don't see how they would ever be reformed or become a productive member of society, they'd be on the street. I guess I don't subscribe to your perverted brand of justice, luckily for us neither does any government, nor will one ever thankfully.

On topic: The main people these studios and the MPAA are going to target, are the distributors. I'm well aware of how torrent software works and that technically one could try and prove that everyone is technically distributing the file due to the way the system works. However this is where they have hit a road block, they have had hell trying to prove that torrent sites are encouraging and actively promoting downloading of movies because they do not host any of these files. In the US I think there have been quite a few people (even children, apparently youthful naivete is no defence) who have had to pay up generally 4/5 figure sums to settle. For the most part studios have just been sending out lots of warning letters, evidently they don't want to take such drastic action as you may recommend, but it isn't really worth the resources when you consider the size of the problem, it couldn't be done.

This article is an interesting read:

The impact of piracy is exaggerated, although I'm not denying there is an impact. The writer in that article claims there is no effect on the box office takings, that may be a bit far, but he does raise some valid points. I'm aware piracy probably has a more significant impact upon DVD sales but it's being blown out of proportion.

I'm not denying it is a crime, I'm not denying it costs the film industry. I just feel your purported punishments are ludicrous.

Since you are majoring in film and other things, I take it you will be making your art for free, right? Otherwise, you are a hypocrite and going against what you speak of.

Something to go with this thread is how people are dropping their cable or satellite company now. Blame the economy, but the main reason, it is cheaper to watch shows online, for free of course. So, how will those in the TV industry generate any money if people are not watching their shows on TV, but rather from a torrent file they downloaded? Advertisers expect a large amount of people to watch shows they advertise on.

One day there will be nobody paying for art: TV, music, or movies. What is the point? Then what will all of you people in that industry expect to do for money to pay for your stuff?

[crayon]

Since you are majoring in film and other things, I take it you will be making your art for free, right? Otherwise, you are a hypocrite and going against what you speak of.
Hypocrite? Where am I contradicting myself? Where did I say piracy shouldn't be punished? I said it multiple times, all I was disputing was your wish for such heavy penalties.

[shoe1985]

Hypocrite? Where am I contradicting myself? Where did I say piracy shouldn't be punished? I said it multiple times, all I was disputing was your wish for such heavy penalties.

Lets say you create a TV show. Instead of people watching it first run, allowing for high ratings, more money generated for advertisers, people download the episode from Bittorrent. The numbers show a massive number of people are watching this way instead of watching it on TV. The network cancels your show. The distributor decides to sell the DVD for the series, and you will receive lets use 2% of the sales. Instead of selling a lot of DVDs, the discs are put online with all the extras. Those same people have now screwed you because they took what should have helped you have a good payday. So, now you are looking for another job, guess what, nobody is hiring because they are taking no risks and going with shows that will generate quick cash.

How would you feel if your income is now being hit? Sure the networks will take a hit, but this will impact the brains behind these shows, movies, and music more than the networks and companies.

If I was a screenwriter, director, or actor, I would be pushing for harsh penalties to make sure there will be a job for me to go to.

As for the hypocrite comment, it wasn't directed towards you, but to those who are for piracy yet want to be part of the industry they take from.

The difference between piracy today and the days of VHS is that more people are doing it. Millions of copies of Wolverine were pirated. Being that it was a workprint, it should still do decent business. That is not the point, the point is that how many people that saw the leaked version will end up going to see the final print? I have read many responses saying they won't. I have heard people saw Taken before it was released here in the States, and didn't go to theaters to see it. So, the movie could have ended up making over $200 million if the movie wasn't leaded.

[Gullom]

Hypocrite? Where am I contradicting myself? Where did I say piracy shouldn't be punished? I said it multiple times, all I was disputing was your wish for such heavy penalties.Then show everyone you are not a hypocrite and stop watching and downloading pirated movies or turn yourself in.

If it's ok to have fines for pirating and all activity related to it, then you won't have a problem paying the fines you so adamantly believe should be handed out to those involved with pirating.

If you don't believe you should have to pay any fines for movies, then stop downloading and watching downloaded movies and watch movies the honest way like the rest of us.

Please don't mistake my "rest of us" comment to be pious, it's to express that some of us are doing the right thing and paying for our entertainment, while some think they are above the law and think it's ok to steal.

[starcat]

I love reading these piracy topics... everyone just seems to be so passionate about one side or the other.

First off, if piracy is so bad then why is the film and dvd industry still booming so large? I remember when they tried to say piracy was killing the music industry, but they just couldnt admit that albums were not selling because the music sucked, that and there was no longer an MTV to tell kids what albums to buy. And though like many people I cant see why you would want to download Wolverine when it wasnt even finished, the only way it could hurt ticket sales is if it totally sucked. Most people want to see their summer blockbusters in a theatre. They want to go with friends, they want to take dates, the want the big screen, the loud surround... the whole feeling of going to the threatre. Some people may not be into that, but most movie buffs love to see the movie in the theatre. Movie lovers also want their dvds... not burnt copies from the net. They want big shelves of movies in their cases on display... they are proud of the collection they have of something they love so much. Do I have some burnt movies... uh, yes. Sometimes if I have something netflixed and I cant watch it, but I need to return the disk back in so I can be first in line for the movie coming out next week, I will burn it. But I own over 600 factory DVD's and if I like the movie I have burned I will buy it. But I do not feel I should be punished for doing that as I have given the MPAA more of my hard earned money than probably anyone else... I owned over 500 VHS movies before the dvd switch, and I couldnt even count the movies I have seen at the theatres and drive-ins, and I'm sure they will be getting plenty of more money from me. Maybe you die hard anti pirate people are just not old enough to realize how much you are getting screwed by these people to defend them so heavily... but at the same time, downloading and watching movies on the net with never intending to pay theatre money, rental money, or buying the dvd is just wrong too. Its called taking advantage of the situation, and when to many people take advantage of a good thing, the good thing always dries up. All recieving and no giving is never a good way to go.

And for the statement that you are a hypocrite if you dont turn yourself in, that is just one of the most ludicrous things my ears have ever heard. No wait, I think I will, and I will also tell them I smoke weed and break into womens houses just to smell their panties... okay the panty sniffing part was a lame attempt at humor, but none the less if you are gonna say that people should turn themselves in when they do bad things this will be a lonely message board, and world for that matter because everybody does things that are deemed wrong by the eyes of the law, even if its something as stupid as speeding 5 miles over or doing an illegal U-turn. Pirates are like prostitutes... they have been around since almost the beginning, and I dont think you are gonna stop them any time soon.

Though I find it funny that everyone is so worried about people who trade shitty quatlity movies on the internet and not the fact that they are trying to say its okay for the government or anyone to read your email... personally I think thats a bigger shame!!!

[shoe1985]

So Starcat, if I go to work and feel you are screwing me over, I should not have to pay you? If I go to a restaurant and the food sucks, maybe I should just walk out. Or how about I walk into a store and just take something and leave without paying for it. No big deal right? I was not planning to buy it anyways.

I am a business owner myself, and if someone tried to steal from me, I am prosecuting them to the fullest. Maybe it is because I have a family to feed, and if you haven't looked at the times, finding a new job is not too easy even with my qualifications and degrees.

Maybe you should step in the shoes of someone that created art and had it stolen before you sit at your computer chair and say how these people screwed you over. This took a lot of time to create, and the fact is you won't like everything you see or hear.

Taking advantage of a good situation? Sure, until you get a nice e-mail saying stop or you will be sued. Then you don't stop and complain when a lawsuit comes your way. Then it is, "Oh, I didn't know it was illegal."

You don't own the work, you pay to see it. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Then one less thing to worry or care about. Then you can laugh when you hear someone being sued for doing this. I had a friend get sued for downloading music and lost, wound up paying $25,000. He lost his job and now he is living at home again.

Is it worth it?

[The Postmaster General]

Most people dont download a movie and then burn it to disc. They download it, watch it, and delete it.

So, no, it's exactly the same.


There's a difference between burning a disc and copying a file. When your friend borrows your DVD, he doesn't make a digital copy, download it, watch it, then delete it, so yeah, it's different - and that's just one reason. There's plenty of other ones.

Burning a disc, copying digital contents, and lending a disc are 3 different things - they aren't just the same based on what you like to do with them. If we both have a class assignment and you are turning yours in on paper, and I'm submitting mine through e-mail, if I copy your work, it isn't somehow not copying because we used different formats.

When VHS came out they did the exact same thing. They tried to prevent piracy and theft of their VHS tapes by adding that little tab on the side of tapes, but every two year old knows how to get around that.

Well no, that's not what happened.

The tabs on VHS tapes (erase-prevention tabs) are used to prevent the contents from being erased, not to curb piracy. Where on Earth did you get that from?

Macrovision was started, I think around 1984, and I'm pretty sure this was the first step taken to curb VHS piracy. And to get around Macrovision requires equipment or a working knowledge of analogue signal modulation.

The removal of the tabs you might be thinking of is because some VCRs had a built video modulators that would by default screw up the picture of non-erase-protected tapes, even home movies and stuff - but this was probably 5 years after they started using Macrovision.



When DVD burners came out, they tried again to prevent piracy by encrypting the data, but theres a pretty simple workaround to that too.

Now another new technology has come out, this thing called the internet (I hear it's really catching on, too) and they're trying to curb piracy. It will also inevitably fail, only it will probably be more spectacularly this time, as they will be flat out alienating (and suing) fans and consumers.


You're trying to be sarcastic, but you doing it on the basis of saying stuff that isn't even true. It's like me trying to be sarcastic by saying, "Yeah, you obviously know a lot about what you are talking about, so I guess you were oh so totally right that pigs don't fly. Right..."


"When DVD burners came out, they tried again to prevent piracy..."

When DVD burners came out?

DVD burners came out before DVDs. You may or may not have to think about that one for a minute.

The DVD piracy protection, CSS came out prior to mass consumer production of DVD-Rs.

"Now another new technology has come out, this thing called the internet (I hear it's really catching on, too) and they're trying to curb piracy."

The Internet came out about 40 years prior to DVDs. People were even copying data files over the net by the mid-80s, but it was usually small, application based files or text. This was about 10 years before DVD came out. Even the early arcade games had to deal with piracy issues, in forms of knock-offs, but that was before you could copyright that stuff. It isn't like they went, "Oh shit, AdamJohnson got the Internet and is trying to copy seasons of Buffy, we better try to stop him!" Pretty much following the old school video game crash of 83-84, all artistic property started invoking proactive measures to prevent copying. One probably didn't have to do with another, but there was definitely an awareness during that time in the entertainment industry of trying to prevent copying.





I'm not even arguing against piracy or anything. Lending out a disc, and copying a digital file are just not the same thing. They might have the same outcome from a given perspective, but that doesn't make it comparable across the board.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm a bit surprised by the anti-piracy posts here. Not everyone is rich and can afford to pay for every film they want to watch. I'm a student, don't have a job and love watching films. I download them. I own quite a few DVD's too, but I bought them only after I'd watched the films in the first place - after I downloaded them.
Some of you need to stop being so butthurt about Fox or some other company losing money. Its ridiculous.


And people need to stop being so butthurt that FOR NOW downloading copyrighted movies is illegal.

People say downloading movies and shit is so harmless, but I don't get why they all get so defensive about it. When I was a kid and we wanted to steal movies, we had to go to the store and put the movie in our pants. Fuck whatever big chain we stole from because they made so much money and treated their employees like shit and they took enough of my money. Whatever, I never denied it was illegal or acted like I had no concept of the law.

Almost 100% of the piracy proponents sound like a version of Fat Tony schooling Bart Simpson on why it's okay to steal cigarettes. Just total justification with more holes in it than John F Kennedy. Except we aren't talking about cigarette trucks netting small fortunes, we are talking about motherfucking copies of Big Momma's House 2, and yet I doubt any mobsters go to lengths of saying some of the stuff I hear people saying to defend their perceived right to download Big Momma's House 2.

Despite starcat's wishes, I'm pretty moderate on this topic - I don't judge negatively on people who download, because that would make me a hypocrite - I just wish people would show a little more spine and do what they are doing without sounding like Spider in Goodfellas trying to explain that he though someone said "You alright spider!"

[Earl Bonds]

lol, this is a joke. they cant do shit to me. I got that shit on lock playa

[BlownCamaro]

As have I. Being a photographer on the internet, people download my photos every day instead of paying for them. Theres nothing anyone can do about it.


You need a web designer who knows what they are doing. There are several ways to prevent people downloading or saving your photos without your permission.

[Smarmy Douche]

lol, this is a joke. they cant do shit to me. I got that shit on lock playa

my name iz earl bonds
i be banging all the blondes (balls deep)
to my niggaz i respond
that of piratin' i am fond
until the lawyers correspond
and i'm behind ba'z getting conned
yelling 'my name iz earl bonds'
while a guy named pimp wizards' stuffin me full of wand (balls deep)
and all my niggaz yawned

[Reigh Kaufman]

my name iz earl bonds
i be banging all the blondes (balls deep)
to my niggaz i respond
that of piratin' i am fond
until the lawyers correspond
and i'm behind ba'z getting conned
yelling 'my name iz earl bonds'
while a guy named pimp wizards' stuffin me full of wand (balls deep)
and all my niggaz yawned

Word.

[Earl Bonds]

my name iz earl bonds
i be banging all the blondes (balls deep)
to my niggaz i respond
that of piratin' i am fond
until the lawyers correspond
and i'm behind ba'z getting conned
yelling 'my name iz earl bonds'
while a guy named pimp wizards' stuffin me full of wand (balls deep)
and all my niggaz yawned

umm...MODS, can we please take care of this racists?

[adamjohnson]

You need a web designer who knows what they are doing. There are several ways to prevent people downloading or saving your photos without your permission.

Wrong. Right click prevention is a common method and theres a very simple workaround.
If it's on the internet, it can be stolen.

Hell, I have a firefox plugin right now that lets me screen cap anythign I want, INCLUDING flash images and stills from Java, etc.

[The Postmaster General]

(had to remake it)

[Gullom]

...I do not feel I should be punished for doing that as I have given the MPAA more of my hard earned money than probably anyone else... I owned over 500 VHS movies before the dvd switch, and I couldn't even count the movies I have seen at the theatres and drive-ins, and I'm sure they will be getting plenty of more money from me.
Ok, so #1 you feel "entitled" because you've paid out what you feel is enough money, more than enough money over the years that you qualify for freebies. Oh, you are "entitled" to participate in piracy because you will continue putting your money into the movie industry. I see.

Maybe you die hard anti pirate people are just not old enough to realize how much you are getting screwed by these people to defend them so heavily... but at the same time, downloading and watching movies on the net with never intending to pay theater money, rental money, or buying the dvd is just wrong too.

#2 you agree that never paying for something is wrong, but paying for it later even though you obtained possession of it without payment for a small period of time, that's ok.

I'd like to see how this would fly at Best Buy. "Look, I'll come back in about 2-3 months and pay for it then! :D"

Well, we'd catch up with you after you got out of prison.

Its called taking advantage of the situation, and when to many people take advantage of a good thing, the good thing always dries up. All receiving and no giving is never a good way to go. Let's see how you feel when someone takes advantage of the situation if you left your keys in the car while you run in to the 7-11, and you find it's not there when you come out. The person thought they would take advantage of the situation where they couldn't afford a car and could only take the bus...I'm sure you wouldn't mind, because you obviously have more money that this person and can afford to go out and buy a new one. You won't notice 1 car.

It appears in your justification for crimes the FBI come after people for that you have lost all sight of the fact that no, the movie industry will not miss your $8.00+ for attending a movie for a viewing you should have paid for by viewing the illegal copy.
The problem is with those that justify's why its ok for them to be an exception for piracy is that when multitudes of people are doing it it in fact does some damage to the industry.

The justification is "it's not bankrupting the movie studios and all associated, they'll only loose out on some money, so what's the problem?" It's the fact that those rightfully entitled to the money that should be paid for every single viewing of any movie are not getting what is rightfully theirs.

Everyone should be thankful that it's not like skipping out on taxes. When the government catches up to you, they don't over look what you've missed, they demand all of it, in full and then you're really screwed.

And for the statement that you are a hypocrite if you dont turn yourself in, that is just one of the most ludicrous things my ears have ever heard.No, he was asking why he was being called a hypocrite, when all we was doing is pretty much what you are saying: it's ok to take advantage of the situation, because it suits my needs and it's not convenient for me have to wait until I have the money to pay for it.

[crayon]

No, he was asking why he was being called a hypocrite, when all we was doing is pretty much what you are saying: it's ok to take advantage of the situation, because it suits my needs and it's not convenient for me have to wait until I have the money to pay for it.
Please tell me where I said that. Why am I being accused of being a pirate simply because I think the way it is being handled is a joke, as is the way many of you think it should be handled. So stop twisting my words and making your own assumptions.

[adamjohnson]

I still dont get how letting my friend borrow a DVD is any different than someone downloading it, watching it and deleting it.

In fact, it's exactly the same. Except instead of handing him my disc, I've emailed him (or her) a copy.

The MPAA shoudl really start suing libraries for usage fees.

[someguy]

What you're saying makes sense on an easy/logical level but legally there's a difference. When someone buys a movie on DVD it is their copy. They have rightfully paid for it and part of that cost covers the whole copyright aspect. So you can do what you want with your DVD, except the obvious copying and whatnot told on those FBI warnings. When you download a movie you haven't paid anything for it though. You're basically taking away money from the people who have ownership of that property. Of course, there's lots of grey areas that come up with this. If you had friends over and showed them a movie, would that be illegal because they haven't paid for a copy? Either way my point is that there's a legal difference between the two situations you talk about. It's perfectly fine for you to let your friend borrow a DVD, but if they made a copy of the movie then they'd be breaking the law.

[The Postmaster General]

I still dont get how letting my friend borrow a DVD is any different than someone downloading it, watching it and deleting it.

In fact, it's exactly the same. Except instead of handing him my disc, I've emailed him (or her) a copy.

The MPAA shoudl really start suing libraries for usage fees.


I'm not sure what you don't understand about the difference between copying and lending. You can lend a copy, or you could copy something you've lent, but lending and copying are two different things. When you provide something for download, you are creating a copy of it. When I transfer files from one disc to another, it says "copying files" not "lending out some files".

When you lend something out, there is only one version. A version that's been paid for. You give it to someone else, and they lose it, you buy another copy.

What you are proposing sounds fine on a moral ground, but for movie companies it's like giving a waiter a blank check to pay your bill and a 25% tip and assuming that he'll do the right thing.

Not only that, I think it's a disservice to your friends to compare them to some random IP addresses and say it's exactly the same.

[The Postmaster General]

If you had friends over and showed them a movie, would that be illegal because they haven't paid for a copy?


In the US, it's legal to show it for private exhibition, just not stuff you'd like advertise for or show on a big scale. Some of the stuff that's kind of weird is like at a bar, they can show a movie, but if people go to the bar with the intention of seeing that movie it's not okay.

[The Postmaster General]

umm...MODS, can we please take care of this racists?

http://www.glasgowmods.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gd6705050mandatory-credit-phot-1435.jpg

"So you have some racists you right need takin care of, eh Earl?"

[Donnie_Darko]

Absolutely HATE this witch hunt bullshit. When a DVD rip of Splinter, a small, made with blood and sweat indie flick hit the internet, where were the MPAA, wanting to burn the "leaker" at the stake then? They only get a fire lit under their ass when a potential "blockbuster" gets leaked. Fuck that, and fuck them.

Taken leaked, and it stayed in the top 10 for weeks, and made a boatload of money. See, if your movie is GOOD, then you needn't worry in the long run. With all the pissing going on, I have a feeling Wolfie ain't all that good.

[Reigh Kaufman]

http://www.glasgowmods.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gd6705050mandatory-credit-phot-1435.jpg

"So you have some racists you right need takin care of, eh Earl?"

Now that is funny!

[BadCoverVersion]

http://www.glasgowmods.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gd6705050mandatory-credit-phot-1435.jpg

"So you have some racists you right need takin care of, eh Earl?"

Bwahahahahahahahaha.

[rilocay]

You know, i think the majority of people who downloaded Wolverine, were hardcore fans wanting to see roughly how it would turn out. Those same fans are probably going to see how it actually is as end product at the theatre. These people wanted to see how their fave character's are adapted and that's that. Now i know it's not everyone, but to the percentage of people that were fans and downloaded it, i think it's unfair for them to get into trouble for this when they are the ones most likely to support it (or trash it if its pure fodder).

I understand why piracy is wrong, but people don't give a shit. If the product is good and they like it enough, they will support it. It's just a quicker way of throwing out the shit.

[Sad man]

If the teacher directs you to where he got his source material, and it's illegal it's your duty as a law abiding citizen to report his piracy and stand up for what's right. http://mpaa.org/ReportPiracy/ReportPiracy.aspx

You should feel bad that someone was robbed of what was rightfully theirs! I've had my intellectual property stolen and was touted as someone else's. I was upset that someone was re-directing money I rightfully should have been earning, into his back account. Pirating sux!

You have no choice?! That's the biggest load of crap; no one is forcing you to go find the movie through illegal channels. No one is forcing you to click download. If a pirated means is the only available means to watch a movie, then don't do it. And because of NetFlix and other online sources you can use to pay for viewing a movie, as inconvenient as it is to your wallet to pay for your entertainment, it's better that we are all honest anyway.


If I go to the dean and tell him "Please, the bad bad teachers are forcing me to illegally download movies!" he would laugh at my face. You don't understand how the situation is here. These are movies NOWHERE to be found, not at Blockbuster, Netflix or any other kind of store. These are movies lost in time where there's only ONE copy available surfing around the net for film students like myself. So should I tell my professors "Pick another movie for your class because I am NOT downloading it!"? It's quite dumb. They are not going to change it. If I did say something like that and the professor was kind enough to me he/she would just give me his/her copy so I don't have to download it. Is that illegal too? To watch an already downloaded movie by someone else? It's the same as borrowing a movie from a friend.

Now, I understand your point of view because, like it or not, you are right. It's illegal, end of story. But there are times, like I said above, where there is NO choice at all. And ticket prices are a big deal, at least here. Should I not pay the gas bill so I can go to the movies once a week? Yeah, I don't think so. And I'm not going to slave myself into working two jobs or anything like that AND study (which already leaves me pretty much no time). Movies are meant for mass consumption, meaning it should be accessible to everyone. By making tickets so expensive you only make people download even more movies instead of going to the theater. Like I said before, the situation here in Argentina is different when it comes to illegal downloading. People in North America do it just because, here it's a matter of availability and price. So you say I should not watch movies then? Well, fuck that, no offense. Why the Hell not? I'm studying to be a filmmaker, and movies are my passion. Why should I give that up?

[adamjohnson]

If I go to the dean and tell him "Please, the bad bad teachers are forcing me to illegally download movies!" he would laugh at my face. You don't understand how the situation is here. These are movies NOWHERE to be found, not at Blockbuster, Netflix or any other kind of store. These are movies lost in time where there's only ONE copy available surfing around the net for film students like myself. So should I tell my professors "Pick another movie for your class because I am NOT downloading it!"? It's quite dumb. They are not going to change it. If I did say something like that and the professor was kind enough to me he/she would just give me his/her copy so I don't have to download it. Is that illegal too? To watch an already downloaded movie by someone else? It's the same as borrowing a movie from a friend.

Now, I understand your point of view because, like it or not, you are right. It's illegal, end of story. But there are times, like I said above, where there is NO choice at all. And ticket prices are a big deal, at least here. Should I not pay the gas bill so I can go to the movies once a week? Yeah, I don't think so. And I'm not going to slave myself into working two jobs or anything like that AND study (which already leaves me pretty much no time). Movies are meant for mass consumption, meaning it should be accessible to everyone. By making tickets so expensive you only make people download even more movies instead of going to the theater. Like I said before, the situation here in Argentina is different when it comes to illegal downloading. People in North America do it just because, here it's a matter of availability and price. So you say I should not watch movies then? Well, fuck that, no offense. Why the Hell not? I'm studying to be a filmmaker, and movies are my passion. Why should I give that up?

I find it hard to believe the dean would just laugh off ANY thing remotely illegal.

[Gullom]

I find it hard to believe the dean would just laugh off ANY thing remotely illegal.Agreed.

[Gullom]

Now, I understand your point of view because, like it or not, you are right. It's illegal, end of story. But there are times, like I said above, where there is NO choice at all. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to click Download. You have a choice. You can choose to talk to your professor. You can choose to talk to the dean. Stop excusing your actions and stand up for what's right. The instructor in your classes doesn't have to choose a movie that is no longer in circulation.

And ticket prices are a big deal, at least here. Should I not pay the gas bill so I can go to the movies once a week? Yeah, I don't think so. And I'm not going to slave myself into working two jobs or anything like that AND study (which already leaves me pretty much no time).This attitude is so selfish. Learn some self control. You are not entitled to anything by being born on this planet.

My 4 year old thinks he's entitled to not have to do anything that doesn't fit into his preferences and I have to on a daily basis remind him that he's not entitled to only fulfil his preferences. He lives in my house and has to contribute.

The existence of movies does not mean everyone is entitled to see them. If you don't have money guess what you don't get to see them.

What ever happened to going without until you had saved enough to purchase?

I could say I'm entitled to an NES because I've played games for hours on end and Nintendo owes me for contributing so many hours of game play on their system, but where they are no longer in circulation I should just go lift 1 from a pawn shop.

Movies are meant for mass consumption, meaning it should be accessible to everyone. By making tickets so expensive you only make people download even more movies instead of going to the theater. Like I said before, the situation here in Argentina is different when it comes to illegal downloading. People in North America do it just because, here it's a matter of availability and price. So you say I should not watch movies then? Well, fuck that, no offense. Why the Hell not? I'm studying to be a filmmaker, and movies are my passion. Why should I give that up?The price of a movie ticket does not force people to do anything. It motivates some to feel like they are above the law and find it's ok to download the same movie instead of rightfully paying for it.

I'm not saying you should or should not watch movies. I'd hope anyone that wants to see a movie would pay to see it, or just plain go without. You are not going to die just by missing out on the latest block buster. If you feel a fear of loss, then find a way to afford the movie ticket, instead of excusing your actions, making yourself above the law.

[Gullom]

I'm studying to be a filmmaker, and movies are my passion. Why should I give that up?You are self-imposing a movie fast, I never said you had to give anything up.

If you couldn't afford food with your current income, are you going to risk being caught by the police because you would prefer to steal to eat, or are you going to go out and get a 2nd stream of income?


After you start making films you come back and tell me how you feel after someone is pirating your hard work, robbing you of the money you rightfully deserve.

Or are you just going turn a blind eye to being robbed of money that is rightfully yours?

I guess you'll probably turn a blind eye, because you understand that some people are just too impatient (regardless of their financial situation) and don't want to have to pay you what's rightfully yours.
I guess you'll also be ok if people don't pay you any money that is rightfully yours for for a few months, because for them it's ok to have a movie for a few months, then pay for it.

[shoe1985]

Not sure about you, Gullom, but I laughed when I read that sad man is studying to be a filmmaker. He will be in the front line when his movie gets leaked to the internet. If you are a filmmaker, and support piracy, put all your work online for free. Lets see how long that lasts for you when you don't have an income, or any money to fund your movies.

I think the main reason people are pirating movies is because everyone does it now. It is like when Napster came out and people said there would be no effect on album sales. Well, we went from one of the biggest decades of record sales, to a very huge decline. Do people still buy music? Of course they do, but not as many do because it is easier, and cheaper, to just click download, rather then go to a record shop to buy the album.

I do find it quite funny when people say they are musicians or studying film to be a writer or director, and then they are pirating music or movies. How do you expect to get a job in the industry if you are taking away from it?

We have had talks about what will replace DVDs, and we hear Blu Ray, but I don't see it. Great format, but I am finding more and more people downloading movies rather than buying them. Everyone I know has broadband and have a movie downloaded in about an hour. Many people have gotten rid of their cable or satellite because they can pay a fee for broadband and download or stream whatever they want without ads.

How will you have a future in the industry if nobody is paying for your work? Anyone want to offer an opinion.

[starcat]

Ok, so #1 you feel "entitled" because you've paid out what you feel is enough money, more than enough money over the years that you qualify for freebies. Oh, you are "entitled" to participate in piracy because you will continue putting your money into the movie industry. I see.



#2 you agree that never paying for something is wrong, but paying for it later even though you obtained possession of it without payment for a small period of time, that's ok.

I'd like to see how this would fly at Best Buy. "Look, I'll come back in about 2-3 months and pay for it then! :D"

Well, we'd catch up with you after you got out of prison.

Let's see how you feel when someone takes advantage of the situation if you left your keys in the car while you run in to the 7-11, and you find it's not there when you come out. The person thought they would take advantage of the situation where they couldn't afford a car and could only take the bus...I'm sure you wouldn't mind, because you obviously have more money that this person and can afford to go out and buy a new one. You won't notice 1 car.

It appears in your justification for crimes the FBI come after people for that you have lost all sight of the fact that no, the movie industry will not miss your $8.00+ for attending a movie for a viewing you should have paid for by viewing the illegal copy.
The problem is with those that justify's why its ok for them to be an exception for piracy is that when multitudes of people are doing it it in fact does some damage to the industry.

The justification is "it's not bankrupting the movie studios and all associated, they'll only loose out on some money, so what's the problem?" It's the fact that those rightfully entitled to the money that should be paid for every single viewing of any movie are not getting what is rightfully theirs.

Everyone should be thankful that it's not like skipping out on taxes. When the government catches up to you, they don't over look what you've missed, they demand all of it, in full and then you're really screwed.

No, he was asking why he was being called a hypocrite, when all we was doing is pretty much what you are saying: it's ok to take advantage of the situation, because it suits my needs and it's not convenient for me have to wait until I have the money to pay for it.


Alright, its cool... let me start off by saying I respect your opinion, and I even agree with a good portion of what you are saying. First off let me start off with saying I appologize for misunderstanding what I read about being a hypocrite, upon reading your explanation I realize that what I said on that particular matter didnt really hold any merit, unfortunately all I can do is say that I am sorry for that. Now I tried to do a post that was pretty much laying out how I feel about both sides of this topic, because I see positive and negatives from each aspect. But you are saying that I am enjoying "freebies" and I dont see how that is so. I said there are times that I burn a copy of a movie I didnt have time to watch before i sent it back, and if it was good I would still buy it. Well whats free about that? I paid to rent/netflix the movie, I paid for the dvd to burn it with.... whats the difference in watching the movie then, or waiting a couple of days and watching a copy... I paid to watch it, but sometimes when you have a job and family life gets in the way of you having time to sit down and watch a movie even if you planned all day to do nothing but have a movie night. I am definately not trying to work on a collection of burned movies... thats why I mentioned how many factory movies I own, just to say I am a collector and want the real thing. Where I am guilty is if I own a movie, and then they come out with a special 2 disk edition, which I am usually not interested in, but if I am I will netflix the 2nd disk and burn it and put it in the case with my original movie... for example I did that with The Lost Boys. Is it wrong... im sure it is, and as much as I hate to, I have to admit that. But I cannot afford to keep buying movies just cause they keep rereleasing them with a couple of new bonus features. They are being greedy, and I think that is wrong too. But I do know two wrongs dont make a right, so you dont have to tell me that one. And also, will you stop comparing burning a movie to things like stealing a car. If you are saying that stealing is stealing then I wanna compare more to stealing a piece of gum from a convenient store... and nobody is going to prison for stealing a piece of gum.
The movie industry is losing more money from the economy that they are pirating i'm sure. And if they are not, they will be. Maybe if they started helping out their consumers during these hard times instead of whining about the a few people downloading movies it would be much better for them in the long run. The industry has been making billions of dollars off of people for years, and thats great. But now so many people are losing there jobs, or are just totally afraid that its gonna happen to them. The whole world is freaking out and seeing a movie is one of the best ways to escape the crashing world for a couple of hours. So why not lower the ticket prices for a couple of bucks to ease the strain on peoples wallet, let people know that they actually care about the people spending their hard earned money instead of trying to think of new ways to jack up ticket prices cause they want to make more money. And for the people that download a movie for the convenience of not wanting to leave the house to see a flick, or cant afford the cost of a babysitter and ticket prices... they could put a movie out on pay per view at the same time as the theatre... Most peope would pay the ppv prices just to get the quality of movie instead of downloading a shitty quality version off of the internet. But instead of trying to figure out ways to work with people to help them out and give them other options besides piracy... they just wanna yell stealing and prison pissing a lot of people off... Oh well, it's all good... like I said, no matter what road they take I am sure for as long as i'm alive and have a job the industry will keep getting my money, because my money like everyone elses keeps me getting good quality movies.

[The Postmaster General]

From what I understand, analysts are saying the economy isn't having an impact on theater attendance, and may actually be helping it as people are looking for escapism.

[Sad man]

You are self-imposing a movie fast, I never said you had to give anything up.

If you couldn't afford food with your current income, are you going to risk being caught by the police because you would prefer to steal to eat, or are you going to go out and get a 2nd stream of income?


After you start making films you come back and tell me how you feel after someone is pirating your hard work, robbing you of the money you rightfully deserve.

Or are you just going turn a blind eye to being robbed of money that is rightfully yours?

I guess you'll probably turn a blind eye, because you understand that some people are just too impatient (regardless of their financial situation) and don't want to have to pay you what's rightfully yours.
I guess you'll also be ok if people don't pay you any money that is rightfully yours for for a few months, because for them it's ok to have a movie for a few months, then pay for it.


I'm just gonna quote this, since you decided to divide my post into like three different parts...

Maybe the dean wouldn't laugh at me, he'll probably just tell me to leave his office. He doesn't care. Trust me. None of them care. If you lived here you would know. Don't try to debate this because you don't know the situation. They care about other, more serious things, such as how to use the limited government funds in our advantage. And like I already said, I don't download the movies myself. So, technically, I'm not committing a crime.

I've already made several short films, all of them are available for free at youtube. And I doubt an independent Argentine movie would suffer from illegal downloading. I will never make a big blockbuster like Wolverine. So no, it would never affect me. And besides, I'm going to major in screenwriting.

So...defend your cause, be brave! I'm gonna quit coming into this thread because it's obviously pointless to argue with you and some of the other members here. We'll never get anywhere. Why go back and forth on the same things over and over again when you won't change your mind and I won't change mine? I'm just gonna say this, you can say all you want here but the truth is that people will keep downloading movies everywhere in the world where an internet connection is available. People will not stop until half of them are penalized. Sad, but true. So, I think, that the MPAA should focus on how to bring more people to the theater instead on how to catch the bad guys.

[Sad man]

Not sure about you, Gullom, but I laughed when I read that sad man is studying to be a filmmaker. He will be in the front line when his movie gets leaked to the internet. If you are a filmmaker, and support piracy, put all your work online for free. Lets see how long that lasts for you when you don't have an income, or any money to fund your movies.

Oh, I laughed too. How I laughed!

[CriticalBill6966]

I'm not saying it's OK to download a movie, but I find this all funny. The only reason why it's blown out of proportion is simply because it's big summer blockbuster movie like Wolverine and the suits think they will bank this summer. I don't even want to think what will happen if this movie falls short of the projected income.

The funny part comes from the lesser movies. No one gets up in arms when a Date Movie or Epic Movie is stolen, but as soon as an Oscar (or summer blockbuster) movie comes out it's stealing. Stealing is stealing, but you can't deny if someone told you they downloaded White Chicks your thoughts would be, "You actually watched that crap" and "At lest you didn't pay for it.".

[adamjohnson]

I'm just gonna quote this, since you decided to divide my post into like three different parts...

Maybe the dean wouldn't laugh at me, he'll probably just tell me to leave his office. He doesn't care. Trust me. None of them care. If you lived here you would know. Don't try to debate this because you don't know the situation. They care about other, more serious things, such as how to use the limited government funds in our advantage. And like I already said, I don't download the movies myself. So, technically, I'm not committing a crime.



I would report him and the school. You might even win a civil suit. When a government organization breaks the law knowingly like that, it's usually a pretty big deal.

Hell, I would do it just for the entertainment value.

[Gullom]

I break up large quotes that I want to make specific comments on.

I'm just gonna quote this, since you decided to divide my post into like three different parts...

Maybe the dean wouldn't laugh at me, he'll probably just tell me to leave his office. He doesn't care. Trust me. None of them care. If you lived here you would know. Don't try to debate this because you don't know the situation. They care about other, more serious things, such as how to use the limited government funds in our advantage. And like I already said, I don't download the movies myself. So, technically, I'm not committing a crime. The situtation doesn't need to be understood, you can still stand up for what's right, which is the issue here. Just because "everybody else is doing it" doesn't make it right. Everybody making a wrong decision doesn't turn wrong actions into a right one, despite thet fact that the wrong decision is widely accepted.I would report him and the school. You might even win a civil suit. When a government organization breaks the law knowingly like that, it's usually a pretty big deal.

Hell, I would do it just for the entertainment value.LOL!!

I've already made several short films, all of them are available for free at youtube. And I doubt an independent Argentine movie would suffer from illegal downloading. I will never make a big blockbuster like Wolverine. So no, it would never affect me. And besides, I'm going to major in screenwriting. You don't think screenwriters won't be affected by movie companies losing money due to piracy??? If movie companies are losing enough money because of piracy, do you think they can afford to hire people if they can't keep their noses above water?

So...defend your cause, be brave! I'm gonna quit coming into this thread because it's obviously pointless to argue with you and some of the other members here. We'll never get anywhere. Why go back and forth on the same things over and over again when you won't change your mind and I won't change mine? I'm just gonna say this, you can say all you want here but the truth is that people will keep downloading movies everywhere in the world where an internet connection is available. People will not stop until half of them are penalized. Sad, but true.

So, I think, that the MPAA should focus on how to bring more people to the theater instead on how to catch the bad guys.I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to encourage a change of heart.

I don't think people that persist in downloading movies will stop until they are caught. Even then they will probably continue.

I completely agree that the movie industry needs to find a more cost effective way to get new movies into the general populous at a very inexpensive price.

[ArtFactoryRadio]

It's interesting to me that most films make the majority of their money overseas, but most of the piracy happens overseas as well.

We're made more aware of it here because the MPAA has the authority to prosecute people here, but the vast majority of downloading takes place outside of our borders.

And someone raised a good point here. Why is it that the only times the MPAA seems upset over this is when people copy a blockbuster film that has such mass appeal that it's going to make it's money back two or three times over, but they don't bat an eyelash if an independent documentary film gets copied and distributed, or even a somewhat big film with just a more niche market like Zack and Miri gets copied (which it did at least two weeks prior to its release).

[Sad man]

I would report him and the school. You might even win a civil suit. When a government organization breaks the law knowingly like that, it's usually a pretty big deal.

Hell, I would do it just for the entertainment value.

Okay, I'll do it. Should be a riot, man!

[BlownCamaro]

Wrong. Right click prevention is a common method and theres a very simple workaround.
If it's on the internet, it can be stolen.

Hell, I have a firefox plugin right now that lets me screen cap anythign I want, INCLUDING flash images and stills from Java, etc.


Again, you need a web designer who knows what they are doing. Disabling right clicks is only the first step. Secondly a well designed flash gallery would be recommended. Third you watermark your images so screencaps do nothing but capture a watermarked image. Fourth you would use LQ image previews so even if they are not watermarked, capturing a LQ screencap will end up looking like a pile of shit.

There are still further methods to prevent online image theft, and yes some people can find work arounds but usually there are fixes to the work arounds.

That is why you need a well qualified designer who knows the tricks of the trades.

Considering that I am a well qualified designer I kinda know what I am talking about.

[Jon Lyrik]

And someone raised a good point here. Why is it that the only times the MPAA seems upset over this is when people copy a blockbuster film that has such mass appeal that it's going to make it's money back two or three times over, but they don't bat an eyelash if an independent documentary film gets copied and distributed, or even a somewhat big film with just a more niche market like Zack and Miri gets copied (which it did at least two weeks prior to its release).

We all know why.

[adamjohnson]

Again, you need a web designer who knows what they are doing. Disabling right clicks is only the first step. Secondly a well designed flash gallery would be recommended. Third you watermark your images so screencaps do nothing but capture a watermarked image. Fourth you would use LQ image previews so even if they are not watermarked, capturing a LQ screencap will end up looking like a pile of shit.

There are still further methods to prevent online image theft, and yes some people can find work arounds but usually there are fixes to the work arounds.

That is why you need a well qualified designer who knows the tricks of the trades.

Considering that I am a well qualified designer I kinda know what I am talking about.

I know several dozen professionl web designers and there are workarounds for everything. I watermark mine most of the time, but I hate doign it.

[BlownCamaro]

I know several dozen professionl web designers and there are workarounds for everything. I watermark mine most of the time, but I hate doign it.

I ran across a program a while back for a photog friend of mine that auto watermarked pictures. You could have it do an entire folder or just a few that you highlight. It was pretty neat. IF I can remember what it was called I will send you a link.

[adamjohnson]

I ran across a program a while back for a photog friend of mine that auto watermarked pictures. You could have it do an entire folder or just a few that you highlight. It was pretty neat. IF I can remember what it was called I will send you a link.

Its a hassle but any decent photoshop artist can remove any watermark without ruining or even affecting the picture.

Trust me, if it's on the internet it can be stolen and/or hacked.

[The Postmaster General]

Trust me, if it's on the internet it can be stolen and/or hacked.


Wasn't your original point being that it's not stealing?

[BlownCamaro]

Its a hassle but any decent photoshop artist can remove any watermark without ruining or even affecting the picture.

Trust me, if it's on the internet it can be stolen and/or hacked.



Thats the smart thing to do. Just not bother with preventing theft of your work. It is easier just to bend over and take it up the rear I guess. I mean someone could steal my car even with an alarm, gps tracking, and door locks, but hey people can get past that so now I just leave the thing running all night in the driveway with the doors open and a big steal me sign on it. Why bother right?


I know that was a smart ass, sarcastic reply but that is basically what you are saying. Yea I know there are way to remove watermarks, ways to bypass right click prevention, ways to capture flash images (and I do not mean just screen capping it btw) but why quit trying to prevent theft? Downloading copyrighted images, movies, music, games, apps, etc is all theft. I do not condone it, I am not saying I do not do it either. I do however expect the rightful owners to get pissed, try to prevent the thefts and to prosecute those who are stealing and that includes me if I were to do that sort of thing.

[DanMak]

my name iz earl bonds
i be banging all the blondes (balls deep)
to my niggaz i respond
that of piratin' i am fond
until the lawyers correspond
and i'm behind ba'z getting conned
yelling 'my name iz earl bonds'
while a guy named pimp wizards' stuffin me full of wand (balls deep)
and all my niggaz yawned

...and got back to chantin' racist bonds
while the slurrin' bass got played
let's be spray'in some more hayte
oh yeah...
oh yeah...?

[CriticalBill6966]

[QUOTE=BlownCamaro;3019759]Thats the smart thing to do. Just not bother with preventing theft of your work. It is easier just to bend over and take it up the rear I guess. I mean someone could steal my car even with an alarm, gps tracking, and door locks, but hey people can get past that so now I just leave the thing running all night in the driveway with the doors open and a big steal me sign on it. Why bother right?
QUOTE]

No dude, that's not what he's saying. He's saying even with the preventions, if a theif wants something they'll take it.

There're sites that don't protect their pics and some that do, and a theif will in most cases go after that unprotected stuff since it's easier, but if they really want some of the protected stuff they'll still get....just might be more of a hassle.

[the_sneaker]

What drives me mad is the adverse consequences the MPAAs attacks on P2P downloading has. The way they make it sound, anyone who has ever downloaded something using the BitTorrent protocol is a criminal...but guess what? Despite what the MPAA would like everyone to believe, you can use BitTorrent for legal donwloads as well.

I use Mininova, The Pirate Bay, IsoHunt, etc all the time to release my writing, friend's music, and much more because it really is a quick and convinent way to distribute works! The MPAA is doing its best to demonize anyone associated with BitTorrent and they are even going so far to take illegal actions to make sure that they win!

Yes, you can download copyrighted material using BitTorrent, but you can also download copyrighted material using many other protocols. Hell, I can download copyrighted material through my web browser, so why isn't the MPAA and the RIAA going after that as well?

I have absolutely no problem with them trying to protect their investments; they have that right. But they do not have the right to invade other people's privacy, and they do exactly that. If any of those trackers ever did release the IP addresses of its users, I would automatically become lumped into the crowd of what they consider "criminals" simply because I have used those services for legal means. It's truly wrong, but to the MPAA, the ends justify the means.

And Gullom, I can understand you being so upset because you were personally affected by someone stealing your work...but I think you're taking this conversation a bit too personally. Just my two cents.

[Monotreme]

I'm just gonna quote this, since you decided to divide my post into like three different parts...

Maybe the dean wouldn't laugh at me, he'll probably just tell me to leave his office. He doesn't care. Trust me. None of them care. If you lived here you would know. Don't try to debate this because you don't know the situation. They care about other, more serious things, such as how to use the limited government funds in our advantage. And like I already said, I don't download the movies myself. So, technically, I'm not committing a crime.

I've already made several short films, all of them are available for free at youtube. And I doubt an independent Argentine movie would suffer from illegal downloading. I will never make a big blockbuster like Wolverine. So no, it would never affect me. And besides, I'm going to major in screenwriting.

So...defend your cause, be brave! I'm gonna quit coming into this thread because it's obviously pointless to argue with you and some of the other members here. We'll never get anywhere. Why go back and forth on the same things over and over again when you won't change your mind and I won't change mine? I'm just gonna say this, you can say all you want here but the truth is that people will keep downloading movies everywhere in the world where an internet connection is available. People will not stop until half of them are penalized. Sad, but true. So, I think, that the MPAA should focus on how to bring more people to the theater instead on how to catch the bad guys.

As a citizen of a foreign country myself, I can definitely say that Sad man is NOT exaggerating when he says that authority figures have no remorse about illegally downloading movies. I see it myself all the time. I guess standards in America are just higher than everywhere else, because I'm telling, you, literally NOBODY cares. For instance: We have a "movie night" every Wednesday at our army base; the commanding officer at my base organizes it and he tries his best to bring the newest movies possible, which haven't been released on DVD yet so obviously they are illegally downloaded. So one time he was talking about movie night and about what movie was going to screen, and I don't remember what it was but obviously it was something just out in theatres - I think it was Slumdog Millionaire or something - anyway, so I told him "don't you think that as the commanding officer of a military base you shouldn't illegally download movies?" And he just laughed and told me "come on, everyone does. It's not a problem." Sad man is NOT exaggerating. It really is like this in probably most countries around the world where we don't have Netflix or extensive DVD rental libraries that have the old, obscure titles as well as the newest, latest DVDs.

[dellamorte dellamore]

add another excuse to the list , the everybody does it one .

so we have :

i can't wait for dvd

it's limited release and it's not playing near me

i hate the studio that released it

i don't have much money now

theater tickets are too expensive

it's not stealing


only rich people who make movies will be affected


the studios already make enough money


it's my right to watch whatever i want , whenever and wherever i want for free

The only thing i have left to say is , if you work , don't you expect to get paid , or do you feel it should be free . Sure some people get paid upfront and then a percentage of potential profits , but what about the people who may not work again because a film was less than profitable . Indie films are the ones that get hurt the most , but you can't expect a business to prosper without a profit margin , Dling is anticapitalistic , anti business . We somehow think it's someone else's duty to entertain us , for free , it's not .

I have an idea , for all the people that think file sharing copyrighted material is okay , make a little film , spend some decent money on it , slave for months creating your little masterpiece and then give it away for free , you probably won't want to . You'll want to see something for your efforts , maybe even break even . Put it up Amazon , sell one copy and have that one person post it on mininova so everyone gets it free :)

[the_sneaker]

I have an idea , for all the people that think file sharing copyrighted material is okay , make a little film , spend some decent money on it , slave for months creating your little masterpiece and then give it away for free , you probably won't want to . You'll want to see something for your efforts , maybe even break even . Put it up Amazon , sell one copy and have that one person post it on mininova so everyone gets it free :)

I agree with you, but at the same time, I have always thought of what good publicity it would be if a group like aXXo had gotten their hands on my film and released it on the web. Irregardless of what movie they "release," the films almost always get tens of thousands of downloads, just because of the name association.

For a blockbuster like Wolverine, that can be a nightmare. For a little-known indie flick, it could be the ticket necessary for the film to get seen by a lot of people. I use P2P all the time to release my works; you'd be surprised how many people will download just because they can.

[xseanymacx]

It's obviously not hurting the film world as much as some of the righteous people in here hope. Soapboxes galore. Most crew (including writers, directors, actors, etc.) are paid before the movie is ever released. Sure residuals are present & percentages of gross but if the creative ones are smart enough, they're never the bulk of the payment.

Chances are, if you're a screenwriter and sell a script, you're getting your payment upfront then the final product is probably 70% (obviously just trying to prove a point) different than your original creation. If I create something, get my money, and know it's going to change...what the fuck do I care if it gets leaked or downloaded? It's not mine anymore anyway and I've already received my compensation.

It's the same for music. At least within the style of music I listen to (hard-working, constantly touring underground metal & hardcore) but I'm willing to bet it's across the board. Record deals deliver money upfront, you see a pathetic return on sales, and make most money through merchandise and branding.

[Spice]

I think that the studio's, (Record/Film) pine for the days when they literally had people over a barrell. The album/single was only available on Vinyl and the films only at the cinema, these companies made a fortune from the consumer as there was no other way, buy it or miss out.
Then home taping came along and the industry went crazy, "home taping will kill music" It didn't. Then the VCR came along and the film industry and TV stations were up in arms, "the VCR will kill the industry" It didn't. DVD recorders, PC's copyright killing software, its been around for ages and the industry still exists and is making a killing.
All these threats, legal shenanigans and basic intrusion on privacy by these massive companies is concerning - where will it end and with what? Instead of threats why do the studios not come up with a sensible solution?

Firstly, get rid of the ridiculous region coding. It may have worked when there was no e-bay but in a world which is continuously connected, this kind of thing is just so outdated!!

Secondly, wouldnt it be great to go to say a Sony Pictures site and have a massive library of films to download for like a couple of dollars each and even better, (and cost effective for them) to be able to do it on bit-torrent, (and I don't mean like Itunes where everything is too expensive and restrictive).

Thirdly why not have a worldwide release date, (or as close as possible) it is insane the gap between the release times in different parts of the world. I am in Japan, Slumdog has just come out, the Wrestler and the Duchess are out in May and Premonition, (the Sandra Bullock film) was released on 31/01/09 nationwide but opened at my local cinema last Friday!! This is why there is a massive downloading community in East Asia and a ton of custom subbing (Korean, Japanese, Chinese etc).

Lastly, in reverse, foreign studios are just as arrogant. There are fans of foreign films whose only access to a certain piece of work is via download. For example in Japan there is a 5 disc Teshigahara box set. Subtitles are available for all 5 but the company, (Toho I think) said no and only 3 had English subs!! The unsubbed films are then available from dedicated sites fully subtitled and the company go crazy, "you are killing the industry"......NO! YOU ARE!!!

The days of these companies having total control are over, they need to stop trying to repress technology and embrace it - stop hassling the download and subbing pioneers and involve them!! The download community is in control at the moment and as soon as this is addressed then everyone can move on.

[dellamorte dellamore]

you made some of my points , you say people will DL a film because of the various release dates around the world . do you really have to see films at certain times , does it threaten your well being if you have to wait 6 months to see a film ?

who cares , i've wanted to see Let the right one In for quite some time now , that doesn't mean i couldn't wait to see it , or that i felt it was my right to see it when i wanted .it's out on dvd over here now and i can see the official copy ( same thing with Martyrs ).and lo and behold i didn't die waiting to see them . if you feel you just can't wait to see something , and that you " have " to DL it to get your fix , there's something else going on besides impatience , we're in addiction mode now .

are these films so important that you have to see them as soon as possible via file sharing .

i think there is a certain amount of respect that goes into waiting to see something legally in the proper way .

i realize there is a rebel aspect to getting a screener or a cam copy , it's a rush , like you got over on someone , i know the feeling , until i got older and realized , at least in my case , it was pathetic and not simply because of some moral stance or potential lost profits for the filmmakers . i grew out of it and now i see how idiotic i was .

if someone can't wait , there's something wrong , films are a luxury not a right , at least experiencing them for free isn't a right unless someone chooses to willingly distribute their works as such .

and this tech isn't pioneering , people were trading commodore 64 games with a slow ass baud modem in the early 80s , they just expanded on that technology and we were copying games with the dual disk drive setup ( you could do it with one , but you had to constantly swap disks ) before some of these DLers were born

[Smiert Spionam]

*starts kicking soap-boxes from under people and laughing at them fall*

[Grand_Marquis]

You need a web designer who knows what they are doing. There are several ways to prevent people downloading or saving your photos without your permission.
A simple cmd-shift-4 on the Mac, and every prevention method in the world will fail you.


So, like, are we ever going to get around to talking about the violation of privacy implications of this case, i.e. turning the act of hacking into someone's account and stealing their emails without their knowing – a clear violation of federal anti-wiretap laws – into a legal precedent. Or...is talking about the actual topic of this thread off limits here? :rolleyes: