Is it just Me?

[SAI]

I posted this article on my blog (www.24framez.blogspot.com) yesterday, but I thought I'd also post it here, in the hope of kicking off a proper debate about these issues.

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I have struggled with the question of whether to write this article, and before I launch into it I want to clarify a few things, to make certain that you know where I’m coming from. I despise censorship. I believe passionately that adults should be free to choose their own entertainment, even if what they choose is offensive to other adults. I am not, by any means, a Michael Medved, or a mouthpiece for Focus on the Family. I’m still the same guy who recently recommended I Spit on Your Grave as a feminist statement, the same guy who thinks Martyrs is the best film he’s seen this year. I still believe absolutely that cinema has not only the right, but sometimes the responsibility to be dark, difficult, challenging, uncomfortable, boundary pushing, provocative, even transgressive. All that said…

http://www.getthebigpicture.net/storage/trailers/crank2_01.jpg
I’ve lately become increasingly troubled by the moral tone of many Hollywood films aimed at young and teenage audiences. I’ve seen things that are jaw dropping in their misogyny, racist, body fascist, make jokes about rape (male and female). I’ve seen films that preach sex, drugs and alcohol as the solution to all of life’s problems. I’ve seen films that fetishise violence purely for violence sake, all of it aimed at young audiences. Again I need to be very clear about what I’m saying here. I don’t believe that depicting things, in and of itself, is a bad thing, nor do I believe that movies create a Pavlovian [monkey see, monkey do] response in their audience, but it does trouble and offend me that the tone of these films seems to endorse such disgusting and destructive behaviour.

The thing that really prompted this article is the fact that, in the last 12 months alone, I’ve seen three mainstream films that make a joke out of one of the most disgusting and devastating crimes it is possible to imagine. Rape. The makers of The Ten, The Boat That Rocked and Observe and Report ought to hang their heads in shame. Rape, I can tell you with absolute certainty, isn’t funny. Ever. I’ve never been through it, but someone I knew has, twice. It’s an act that leaves scars, whether physical or mental, that can take years to fade and sometimes fail to heal however long you wait. It is not okay to make cheap jokes about this. It’s not okay to structure a comedy set piece, as Richard Curtis does in The Boat That Rocked, around the idea of fucking a girl without her knowledge or permission, however ridiculous the concept and despite the fact that it doesn’t actually work, you still run the risk of seeming as if you are endorsing the idea. This also happens in David Wain’s staggeringly awful portmanteau film The Ten, in which one segment is basically ten minutes that say ‘rape, it’s hilarious if a man’s raping a man’. Then there’s Observe and Report. In Jody Hill’s film there is one spectacularly offensive moment, which has Seth Rogen’s character fucking the barely conscious, paralytic drunk and stoned, girl of his dreams. Hill is careful to give Anna Faris a line to suggest that she is awake and consenting, but the damage is done by the fact Faris’ character is so completely out of it that you can’t possibly interpret it, whatever she says as anything other than a borderline date rape – perpetrated by the man the movie shows, unambiguously, as its hero. That’s why Observe and Report probably disturbs me most. It’s pitched at a mid-teen audience (here in the UK it’s a 15, in the US an R) and it holds up this man as a hero. Of course he’s not just a date rapist.

In Observe and Report Rogen’s character is also a racist. At least three times the film shows him attacking, abusing or accusing people based purely on their race. This too is played for laughs. Nobody else in the film is a racist, but equally nobody ever calls the character on the way he behaves, or suggests that racism is the disgusting and destructive thing that it is. Indeed by the time that Rogen finishes his heroic journey in the film his character is utterly unchanged. Ladies and Gentlemen a racist date rapist… our hero. I’m not suggesting that, as a film, Observe and Report is racist, nor that Jody Hill is, but when you make a racist your hero, and never question his attitudes, it does make you look like you are endorsing what he says and does. Crank – High Voltage, by contrast, is unambiguously racist. Every single ethnic minority in it is a criminal of some sort, be they gangsters or whores, it gives none of them any character or depth, and refuses to portray them as anything but a stereotype. It isn’t quite Birth of a Nation (the 1915 film in which the KKK ride to the rescue of the main characters), but its attitudes are probably more disturbing, given that they come after 94 years of ‘progress’.

http://cdn.videogum.com/img/thumbnails/photos/observe_and_report_2.jpg
A lot of Hollywood women exist purely to be fucked. That’s not new or rare, but there has recently been a tone in several films that goes some way beyond this stereotype and seems to go out of its way to belittle women and reduce even leading female characters to little more than sexual receptacles. The worst of this breed is the spectacularly awful Paris Hilton ‘comedy’ The Hottie and the Nottie, which was written by a woman. Its hero’s only goal is to fuck Paris Hilton, except that late in the film he sees that her friend, who begins the film ugly, is now hot, and decides that perhaps his penis is now more interested in Christine Lakin. What’s really disturbing about this film is two fold. First there is never any hint of feeling between the characters, no idea that the leading man is actually interested in or enamoured of either of these women, he just wants to fuck them. Secondly, and most horribly, the only acceptable goal for a woman in this movie is to be seen as a sexual object. The ‘Nottie’ (played by the lovely Christine Lakin) is treated as sub human until she is put through masses of (off screen) plastic surgery in order to reshape her into somebody who can then be leered rather than jeered at. At best this is body fascism of the first and worst order, and yet it is presented as liberation by this putrescent film, which even has the temerity to dress its destructive and reductive attitude to women up in insulting platitudes about being yourself. Then there’s Crank 2, which doesn’t even bother giving women a character (or, most of the time, a name). This film doesn’t even seem to see women as people. It sees them as breasts and vaginas, attached for male convenience to the bodies of either whores or strippers. It makes me sick to see women depicted like this. Don’t get me wrong, I love the female form, and I don’t think nudity or the depiction of sex on screen is a bad thing (indeed screen sex needs to be more honest and there should probably be more nudity associated with it to that end) but that’s not everything. Even American Pie, a film about characters questing to lose their virginity, came to the conclusion that sex is not the be all and end all, it became about connection in a lot of different ways, and gave the women just as much intelligence and control (more even) than the men in the film. That’s why American Pie is a funny and enjoyable movie, and The Hottie and the Nottie is a sewer.

I am not calling for censorship. I don’t believe these films (or the many others that share their problems) should be withdrawn, nor that anybody should be prevented from seeing them or judged for enjoying them. In short I don’t believe that filmmakers ought to be required to stop doing and saying the sort of things I’ve talked about here, but I do think that they ought to have the simple human decency to decide for themselves not to do and say them. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t depict rape, but that you should depict it (as, say, I Spit on Your Grave, The War Zone and IRREVERSIBLE do) as the dirty, disgusting act that it is, and not as a comic situation. I’m not saying you can’t depict racism, or have a racist as your main character, but what you shouldn’t do is make an unrepentant racist a hero. Use racism by all means, films like American History X and Mississippi Burning use it to make the point that it is a hateful and destructive belief system, but don’t make a racist look good. Depict sex, do it honestly, do it in hardcore detail if you feel you need to, but don’t suggest that a woman’s only purpose is as a sex object or a sperm receptacle. Offensive as I find all these thing I never would have written this article if I were only seeing these things in occasional films, but I see them increasingly, and the cumulative effect is beginning to truly disgust and worry me.

Please, chime in on this one, is it just me?

[Abbie Normal]

I thought posts had a thousand word maximum.

I read almost all of it. I have one thought. People as a whole are stupid and especially males ages 12 - 27ish. Stupid people will go see just about anything. Stupid people laugh at rape jokes. Stupid people are immature about sex. Stupid people think all black people commit crimes. As long as there are stupid people putting down money for movies that are just wrong, more of them will be made, because only stupid people care more about money than right or wrong.

[Tyler Durden4]

Here's the thing, I don't think rape is funny, but I feel I should jump in and defend Observe And Report. The movie isn't really making the main character out to be the hero. He's obviously has mental issues, and for the most part, we feel bad for him. Now, the punch line of the scene was that he thought she was asleep. I don't feel the scene was mocking Date Rape. At then end of the movie, I thought... well, shit, he's insane.

Although he thought himself was the hero....

*SPOILERRRRRRS*







when he took the streaker to the police station bloody, they didn't cheer for him, They looked at him like he was insane, because he was.




*END SPOILERSSSSSS*



Overall, I agree with what you say, just not about Observe And Report

[drc5145]

I kinda agree with the idea that some dumb people will flock to see some pretty stupid crap like Crank 2 or Meet The Spartans.

But the one problem is that nearly all the films you slam here (Crank 2, Observe & Report, The Hottie and The Nottie, The Ten) were financial failures and critically panned (with the exception of O&R, which I haven't seen yet so I don't know how to comment on that movie)

If things were truly disturbing, these films would be much more successful, That's when it's time to look and say "...what happened to society today?" ...

But they weren't. I think people have (enough) of a sense of mind to realize when a film looks IQ-dumbingly bad, they avoid it (For the most part).

[razgriz21]

^^Don't even compare Crank 2 to Meet The Spartans. Spartans was dog**** but I'm sure Crank 2 has some redeeming entertainment values.

[Tagia_Romero]

It's not just you. It truly depends on the attitude of the people who watch these movies for the 'entertainment value'. I for one wouldn't call 'I Spit On Your Grave' fun for the family, nor should it be a Bible for morality given everything in that movie occurred under extenuating if not exaggerated circumstances.

I really do not understand the Hollywood system, and human brains for that matter, but what I do know is that misogyny, racism, and stereotype come from a lack of understanding and fear. In the case of what you wrote, misogyny is a fear of women in terms of being a social equal (perhaps my wording is wrong, for which I apologize in advance) and thus, fear makes people aggressive when they are not cowering in the corner. Fear makes people do and say foolish things, and denial is a contributing factor to this.

Rape is a hideous crime, not just against women, but also men, though it's mainly women who are targeted. It is incredibly rare in movies when a man is being raped, be it by another man or a woman (yes, men CAN be raped by women and no, they do NOT enjoy it). Rape is a device for humiliation and power, and this is echoed in movies in order to gain attention, for the movie to gain notice. And it certainly does work.

I can't argue with the fact sex sells, and most advertising today, believe it or not, is indeed aimed towards men, because men are visual creatures. I'm not saying there is absolutely no advertising aimed towards women, but it's rare we see a butt naked, handsome, built man advertising a product, and when it does happen, that particular advertisement suspiciously disappears. However, if anybody can tell me of a consistent marketing strategy that is aimed towards women in regards to using sex, please enlighten me so I can rethink that last part.

[Shinigami]

Rape, I can tell you with absolute certainty, isn’t funny. Ever. I’ve never been through it, but someone I knew has, twice. It’s an act that leaves scars, whether physical or mental, that can take years to fade and sometimes fail to heal however long you wait. It is not okay to make cheap jokes about this.

IMO progressiveness in the media (even of this sickly sort) should always be welcomed, because the people who can laugh at atrocity are more enlightened about that atrocity than people who can't.

I also want to cut off any chance of this thread devolving into a long discussion about whether or not making light of a situation hurts the victims of it more so than respecting that situation's gravity and seriousness. But before I do I also want to come out and tell everyone that I'm from a family of therapists and counselors. Half of them have recovered from some trauma that inspired their profession, one of which, for one of whom, was rape. The reason I'm pointing that boring and personal back story out is because apparently it gives my following opinion some kind of grotesque proximity credibility (I’ve never been through it, but someone I knew has, twice. ). Mocking these subjects in movies is wrong, but exploiting the suffering of our friends, family, and loved ones in order to give credibility to our longwinded internet movie rants is okay. Fuck.

Look, making light of a situation isn't always a great idea. But it's a natural development once that situation is included in mainstream society. America has had a revolution of sexual acceptance in its movies and television and media (condom commercials on tv), so in addition to television now showing or suggesting blowjobs, fucking, condoms, abortions, and pregnant teenagers... it's going to show or suggest rape. And like all those others, sometimes rape will be slipped into a humorous situation. It's all a part of being included. Think of the American media like a gang of high schoolers. When you aren't in their group they ignore you. Only when they finally accept you into their fold do you get to enjoy their attentions, and all the benefits that come when you're finally counted in. Now sure, sometimes they will call you a ball licker and sometimes they will make lewd comments about sleeping with your mother (and sister), and sometimes that's going to piss you off. But at least you're being validated. And horrible analogy aside it is important for rape to be validated on a public level, with a public consciousness and awareness of it.

[SAI]

I kinda agree with the idea that some dumb people will flock to see some pretty stupid crap like Crank 2 or Meet The Spartans.

But the one problem is that nearly all the films you slam here (Crank 2, Observe & Report, The Hottie and The Nottie, The Ten) were financial failures and critically panned (with the exception of O&R, which I haven't seen yet so I don't know how to comment on that movie)

If things were truly disturbing, these films would be much more successful, That's when it's time to look and say "...what happened to society today?" ...

But they weren't. I think people have (enough) of a sense of mind to realize when a film looks IQ-dumbingly bad, they avoid it (For the most part).
This is a very fair point, and one that cheers me, but I do find it as disturbing that these films, these sequences are being made. That MANY people, over a long period of time, have looked at scripts, edited together a film and said 'that's fine'.

[SAI]

The reason I'm pointing that boring and personal back story out is because apparently it gives my following opinion some kind of grotesque proximity credibility (I’ve never been through it, but someone I knew has, twice. ). Mocking these subjects in movies is wrong, but exploiting the suffering of our friends, family, and loved ones in order to give credibility to our longwinded internet movie rants is okay. Fuck.
Oh, come on. EXPLOITING my friend, really? If that's what you took from it I'm sorry, because it wasn't my intent, but I really don't think I did anything of the sort. I could have gone into her story, and my reaction to it, that would have been exploitative. I mentioned it briefly only because what she said really brought home the horror of it in a truly visceral way for me, and helped shape my thinking on this subject.

[Reigh Kaufman]

^^Don't even compare Crank 2 to Meet The Spartans. Spartans was dog**** but I'm sure Crank 2 has some redeeming entertainment values.

^^Don't even compare Crank 2 to Meet The Spartans. Spartans was dog**** but I'm sure Crank 2 has some redeeming entertainment values.


Nope.

Great article, SAI. I didn't feel quite as outraged about Observe & Report as you did, but the law on consensual sex is not ambiguous and the character clearly cannot make decisions on that basis - ergo, it was rape. (You also reminded me of another film which treats the subject far too casually - the Josh Harnett "comedy" 40 Days and 40 Nights. There is a scene in that film where the main character is raped by a woman - and nobody said shit about it. Disgusting).

Anyway, Observe & Report needed to be cleared that Seth's character was a mentalist, but I understand your concerns.

[BubbaStrangelove]

How do you feel about Revenge of the Nerds, where Louis has sex with Betty under false pretense/fraud?

I do take issue with your assessment of The Ten though... You say the segment basically says "rape is fine as long as it's man on man..."

I'm not sure how you derived that, and I think are taking things pretty far out of context.

SPOILERS, I GUESS......

Let's first off point out that the man being raped is a convicted murderer, who killed a wife as a joke on her husband. Then after killing her, refused to admit that it wasn't a funny "goof". After being convicted of murder, he still doesn't get why no one thought it wasn't a funny joke. So he goes to prison, where stereotypically prisoners are raped. His cellmate says he's going to rape him, then says he's goofing, but not really.

Then in a second segment, the same character finds "love" in another inmate who he shares a lot in common with, and would rather be raped by.

The whole joke wasn't that rape was funny, but first that this asshole was oblivious to direness of his situations, then the second that the same asshole found a semblance to love within a prison rape situation. It wasn't that rape is funny, haha. It was in comparing a rapist/bitch situation in a prison context to a normal loving relationship.

It wasn't like Deliverance or anything, which leads me to beg the question of whether or not the billions of joking references to Deliverance have been bothering you over the years. You took the entire thing out of context and made rape the focus of the joke, when there was a lot more to it than that. I really don't understand how you can compare the "It was a goof!" guy from The Ten to your friend that was twice raped.

[SAI]

How do you feel about Revenge of the Nerds, where Louis has sex with Betty under false pretense/fraud?

I do take issue with your assessment of The Ten though... You say the segment basically says "rape is fine as long as it's man on man..."

I'm not sure how you derived that, and I think are taking things pretty far out of context.

SPOILERS, I GUESS......

Let's first off point out that the man being raped is a convicted murderer, who killed a wife as a joke on her husband. Then after killing her, refused to admit that it wasn't a funny "goof". After being convicted of murder, he still doesn't get why no one thought it wasn't a funny joke. So he goes to prison, where stereotypically prisoners are raped. His cellmate says he's going to rape him, then says he's goofing, but not really.

Then in a second segment, the same character finds "love" in another inmate who he shares a lot in common with, and would rather be raped by.

The whole joke wasn't that rape was funny, but first that this asshole was oblivious to direness of his situations, then the second that the same asshole found a semblance to love within a prison rape situation. It wasn't that rape is funny, haha. It was in comparing a rapist/bitch situation in a prison context to a normal loving relationship.

It wasn't like Deliverance or anything, which leads me to beg the question of whether or not the billions of joking references to Deliverance have been bothering you over the years. You took the entire thing out of context and made rape the focus of the joke, when there was a lot more to it than that. I really don't understand how you can compare the "It was a goof!" guy from The Ten to your friend that was twice raped.

I haven't seen Revenge of the Nerds for years, and I barely remember it, so no comment there.

On the Deliverance thing, I haven't noticed anything lately that makes reference to it, and so I never mentioned it. I'm not even going to get into hypotheticals.

On The Ten - I guess we each took what we took. I only saw it once, and I'm reporting what I felt on that viewing, I'm certainly not going to subject myself to it a second time.

I am NOT comparing anyone to my friend, and I don't believe I suggested I was.

[SAI]

(You also reminded me of another film which treats the subject far too casually - the Josh Harnett "comedy" 40 Days and 40 Nights. There is a scene in that film where the main character is raped by a woman - and nobody said shit about it. Disgusting).
I'm now glad I never finished that film.

[BubbaStrangelove]

On The Ten - I guess we each took what we took. I only saw it once, and I'm reporting what I felt on that viewing, I'm certainly not going to subject myself to it a second time.

I am NOT comparing anyone to my friend, and I don't believe I suggested I was.


You are comparing the plight of the character in The Ten to your friend. You say rape is a horrible thing, and mention your friend being raped, then you talk about the guy in The Ten being raped. That's a comparison. You don't need to suggest it or outright say A is like B, you are totally and completely comparing them, unless you are going to tell me that mentioning your friend being raped in a post about you not liking seeing characters in movies raped was just totally random and had nothing to do with anything.

And on The Ten - no we each didn't take what we took. You missed the joke. I'm not even commenting on whether or not I found it funny, but am stating straight up that the joke wasn't "haha - rape is funny." You can't be told the joke, "4 people walked into a bar, but the 5th one ducked out of the way." And respond - "That's not funny, my dad was killed by a drunk driver" then when someone says, "No, that wasn't the joke." simply reply, "Oh we see it differently."

Seriously, I'm sort of irked because it doesn't even feel like you put any effort or consideration into me partaking in your discussion here. I made a lot of points which you basically deduced to, "I'm not even going to think about it." Only one of those points was in disagreement (The Ten) and the rest were just asking for insight into how you see rape in films.

[SAI]

You are comparing the plight of the character in The Ten to your friend. You say rape is a horrible thing, and mention your friend being raped, then you talk about the guy in The Ten being raped. That's a comparison. You don't need to suggest it or outright say A is like B, you are totally and completely comparing them, unless you are going to tell me that mentioning your friend being raped in a post about you not liking seeing characters in movies raped was just totally random and had nothing to do with anything.

And on The Ten - no we each didn't take what we took. You missed the joke. I'm not even commenting on whether or not I found it funny, but am stating straight up that the joke wasn't "haha - rape is funny." You can't be told the joke, "4 people walked into a bar, but the 5th one ducked out of the way." And respond - "That's not funny, my dad was killed by a drunk driver" then when someone says, "No, that wasn't the joke." simply reply, "Oh we see it differently."


Maybe I'm getting The Ten wrong, and I'll concede that what I flet it said was almost certainly not its intent, but that is still what I felt it said. I do see your point about how that sequence is constructed, but I remember feeling at the time that, whatever the actual intent was it was defeated by what seemed to be 10 minutes of ha ha ha prison rape is funny.

I'll phrase this bit carefully. unless you are going to tell me that mentioning your friend being raped in a post about you not liking seeing characters in movies raped was just totally random and had nothing to do with anything. That's not quite what I said. I believe I was VERY clear that my problem isn't about rape being depicted, but it being made a joke. I also clarified above that it was something that certainly influenced my opinion on this subject (I don't really see how it could not) but I still, having re-read the relevant paragraph in my original post, don't see that I'm comparing the two things, I merely mentioned, in passing, something that influenced my thinking on why it's not okay to make cheap jokes about this subject, prior to mentioning some of those cheap jokes.

To be honest, looking at it now, I probably should have taken out the reference to The Ten. I deal with it in one sentence, and it's not a great point, which is because I haven't seen it for a long time. I still stand by what I say, because that IS how I felt about it, and that's reflected in my original review, but it doesn't have the weight of the rest of my argument here.

[outsyder]

Nope.(You also reminded me of another film which treats the subject far too casually - the Josh Harnett "comedy" 40 Days and 40 Nights. There is a scene in that film where the main character is raped by a woman - and nobody said shit about it. Disgusting)


That one also caught me off guard as well. It was made even more bizarre by the fact that Shannon Sossamon's character actually gets angry at Josh Hartnett for being raped.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Maybe I'm getting The Ten wrong, and I'll concede that what I flet it said was almost certainly not its intent, but that is still what I felt it said. I do see your point about how that sequence is constructed, but I remember feeling at the time that, whatever the actual intent was it was defeated by what seemed to be 10 minutes of ha ha ha prison rape is funny.

I'll phrase this bit carefully. unless you are going to tell me that mentioning your friend being raped in a post about you not liking seeing characters in movies raped was just totally random and had nothing to do with anything. That's not quite what I said. I believe I was VERY clear that my problem isn't about rape being depicted, but it being made a joke. I also clarified above that it was something that certainly influenced my opinion on this subject (I don't really see how it could not) but I still, having re-read the relevant paragraph in my original post, don't see that I'm comparing the two things, I merely mentioned, in passing, something that influenced my thinking on why it's not okay to make cheap jokes about this subject, prior to mentioning some of those cheap jokes.

To be honest, looking at it now, I probably should have taken out the reference to The Ten. I deal with it in one sentence, and it's not a great point, which is because I haven't seen it for a long time. I still stand by what I say, because that IS how I felt about it, and that's reflected in my original review, but it doesn't have the weight of the rest of my argument here.


Yes SAI, despite me not specifically typing the word "joke", I do understand it isn't the depiction as much as it is a joking depiction. You made that VERY clear, but taking a tip from the last line of your post, it has nothing to do with my point.

I'm not sure how you don't see the comparison you are making. Your friend was raped, the guy in The Ten was raped. You brought both of them up. Do I really need to clarify how that's a comparison? You are comparing them both on the grounds that they were raped. I'm not even sure what there is here to argue about. If you can't agree with the use of the word "compare" can you agree with "relate" or "interconnect" or "correlate"?

Whatever, you're proposing that while knowing of how rape affected your friend, your issues with it happening in The Ten are influenced by how you've been affected by your friends victimization. I am surprised you would apply one to the other, due to all the contextual reasons I gave, mainly noting that I doubt your friend was raped following a series of comedic misadventures and as a convicted murderer.

Which brings me to another point I wanted to make in questioning your issue with The Ten, in that you don't seem to have an issue with someone murdering a man's wife in cold blood and laughing about it in the man's face, but that murder goes to prison and gets raped, and it sets you off. Maybe you don't know anyone who's had a loved one murdered, I don't know.

As for your original argument, I don't know what you are talking about. I've never refuted or disagreed with any points you made, and just attempted to a) inject the true context of the joke from The Ten and b) gain more insight into how seeing rape handled in films has affected you.

Bringing up Revenge of the Nerds was just because that's a long standing discussion (since it's a 1984 movie) about the situation in which Louis finally scores with the babe, and not to mention the other criminally victimizing acts in the movie like lewd behavior, assault, breaking and entering, harassment, spying... Good times, but the movie raises a lot of the same ethical questions you are posing. Of course, I could reckon you don't want to go down this road, since your original post was proposing that this is all some new trend in film. Who knows? Maybe you don't know any people who had their sorority house terrorized by Lambas?

As for Deliverance, I'm surprised you are telling me you can't recall that movie never being referenced, whether it be a riff of dueling banjoes, or even the "squeal like a pig". I'm sure I could hit IMDb and find over a dozen references from the last 5 years, but I doubt you would help me in making any of them relevant to the conversation.

[Shinigami]

Oh, come on. EXPLOITING my friend, really? If that's what you took from it I'm sorry, because it wasn't my intent, but I really don't think I did anything of the sort. I could have gone into her story, and my reaction to it, that would have been exploitative. I mentioned it briefly only because what she said really brought home the horror of it in a truly visceral way for me, and helped shape my thinking on this subject.

I wasn't genuinely offended. My parodying point was that fictional rape can be joked about because actual rape can also be so noted and used in a movie rant. If rape was truly the taboo you saw it as (or questioned it as), you certainly did it a disservice with that aside. IMO the heart of your rant lay in the certainty that we should give such horrific situations the respect and seriousness they deserve, rather than mocking them... or in your case, rather than giving them a cursory mention as a way to add credibility, gravity, or point of reference to some blog rant (and an inappropriate point of reference at that, because real life rape is obviously not fictional rape). Isn't that its own form of mockery, at least by whatever sensitive standards get off being offended from some scene in the Josh Hartnet comedy? Or am I misunderstanding your sensitivities..?
But on the other hand I was just busting your balls. :D I'm a big appreciator and believer in the way our media has finally streamlined and included sex in its subject matter (which I already explained as a developmental process that will, occasionally but necessarily, result in mocking rape), and I'm also a big believer in the counter-productivity of this well intentioned but misguided idea that giving victims of any traumatic event a supportive and nurturing environment means that everyone must overreact and overdramatize their genuine suffering as our pretentious own (aka "Being Offended For Other People" syndrome). So I think reading your rant must have ticked me off in some way. In this particular context I never trust somebody who holds up the seriousness of an event they themselves have never experienced, because that results in blowhard sentiments. I'm not calling you yourself a blowhard, and I'm sorry that I'm coming off this combative. I just deeply, profoundly disagree with that mindset, on this subject, and I think it's a detriment.

I love how the sexual topics of condoms, positions, blowjobs, teenage pregnancy, abortions, date rape, etc are being streamlined into the public media consciousness. I wish some of their lewder or crasser examples didn't happen, but that's only to be expected. It's all part of inclusion. Without these offensive examples of Observe and Report we also wouldn't have honest and touching examples that bring these topics out of the closet and genuinely explore them in therapeutic ways. You can't have one without the other. It's all or nothing.

[Reigh Kaufman]

I see both points very clearly, Shinigami, but I am a main offender for making posts that have some relevance to my own understanding and/or first hand knowledge of something as despicable as, in this example, rape. It's in practically every post I make - 'cos I'm maniacally egotistical - but it's also contextualising.

I don't let it offend my sensibilities when people say something is "gay", even though, technically, I have to fill in a form whenever one of my pupils uses the word as an insult (there I go again; putting myself in the post)...which I don't do. I can safely presume that you all understand I have gay friends (look at me! I have gay friends!) and therefore dislike the over-reliance of the word "gay" to denote something as sub-par or boring or whatever other negative the adjective is being used to describe. So that people do not think I am being overly-liberal or a closet-case or a secret homophobe, I will contextualize why I am "offended for other people" in some responses where I think a Schmoe has become offensive.

(I don't count my gay or ethnic friends and then cite the number in conversation, however; that's just gay).

I can therefore understand that SAI included the epithet to ensure he was being read sensitively. I would never think he was exploiting his friends ordeal just to give his blog some gravitas.

Does that make sense?

Rape is such an ugly thing - even the word has no connotations that don't make you visualise an ordeal; an assault; a defencelessness - that making the viewer a passive audience is demeaning to the victims. There can also be a case made for murder, burglary, et cetera, because some of us have had these things occur in our daily life. SAI's point, if I understood it correctly, is simply that, as of late, some films are too voyeuristic and titillating for his palate.

And I agree.

I remember years ago a Schmoe said he masturbated to Irreversible because he thought Bellucci was "hot". That film, more than any other, did what nobody had thought to do: it did not fetishise rape. He was bounced of the boards by JoBlo himself.

I think film should deal with some issues in a lighter way. Rape could be one of them, I suppose, but I just don't see how.

Anyway, I'm off to hang out with one of my black friends. I have four of them so I can't be racist.

Right?

[SAI]

Rape is such an ugly thing - even the word has no connotations that don't make you visualise an ordeal; an assault; a defencelessness - that making the viewer a passive audience is demeaning to the victims. There can also be a case made for murder, burglary, et cetera, because some of us have had these things occur in our daily life. SAI's point, if I understood it correctly, is simply that, as of late, some films are too voyeuristic and titillating for his palate.
That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. I'm really not trying to be offended on anyone else's behalf. I don't even ascribe to the view I that it is my own right not to be offended. I also agree with Shinigami that sometimes offensiveness is useful, required even, that films should be daring and boundary pushing.

Perhaps this is just about me finding my own limits. Some people find gore disgusting, some don't like swearing, or the depiction of sex or nudity, maybe I'm just coming rather late to discovering my own sensitivities

[Shinigami]

There was anything wrong or sleazy about Sai's mention of his friend. I'm not trying to put everybody on their politically correct defensive, but we are talking about an unreasonable amount of sensitivity (expecting the American media to show this level of taste is unreasonable), and it was my point to front expecting the same unreasonable amount of sensitivity from Sai. It's not the most clever reversal, it just played out my opinion that we can't demand this of people. If we allow ourselves to talk publicly about the subject of rape or incest (and we should allow ourselves, and our media, freedom over those subjects), people are going to talk about it however they please to. I'm being way too pragmatic about this, I know. I onlt wanted to step back and remind everyone that it's a necessary evil in the positive development of having more open and frank discussions about sexualized topics (which were before taboo in mainstream media). And luckily for our hope of a brighter tomorrow most people will show good judgment and a reasonable level of respect to the subject they're discussing. It's only the minority who are rude enough to joke about things like sexual harassment by discrediting it as some suing ruse (south park), and even then it's often funny or topical (south park). It's the 10%ers who appeal to our lowest intelligences in ways that aren't funny, aren't topical, aren't smart- just joking about masturbating to bellucci in Irreversible.

Besides. From my pov it's a positive thing not to have all of these moody people reinforcing for the victims how awful, terrible, depressing, despairing, and horrible the crimes committed against them were (which is an consequence of taking things too seriously, too direly). There is a fine line separating respect from excessiveness, and imo the opinions of this rant were excessive. A lot of people get over trauma by coming to terms with it, not by dwelling in its awfulness, and a social environment that only reflects its victims' traumatic despairs back at them is unhealthy. Having these taboo topics included in the public eye and entertainment might not exactly help people- I just can't see any reason it would hurt them. I might degrade and jade our national morals, sure, but I don't think there's any turning back from that now. :D

...I'm actually serious on that one. ;)
Fuck off smileys I'm serious! :p
No matter how much I beat this dead horse, nobody is laughing. It must be because we're talking about rape.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Wasn't there a thread on here some years back specifically discussing our feelings on rape in film?

I may never gain any of the insights I was seeking from SAI, as apparently I've gotten the cold shoulder, but to make my own opportunity to expand on where I was trying to go...

Part of my questioning is that all of the "not SAI approved" examples given here have been films that generally are considered in-large to not be very good films (and one that hasn't been released/I haven't seen). Bad comedies have bad jokes - period. This is why I tried to bring up the more beloved Nerds as well as the infinite number of comedic Deliverance references used countless times and almost unanimously to laughter. I just wonder if there are examples where SAI appreciated the humor, or if there are other examples he can come up with.

The whole rape thing aside, I really think to say that in this day and age, we are starting to more-oft see women treated as objects is kind of absurd. Women are more empowered in film than ever before. I'm sure there's a lot further to go, but I mean how many comedies from the 80s were as SAI described The Hottie and Nottie? Movies like American Pie were a modern throwback to that ideology. The same with Superbad, in which once again, guess what - the characters are more enlightened and respect women.

In the 80s you didn't have that. You had the Hottie and Nottie, but it wasn't just one movie, it was tons from stuff like obscure sex romps like Party Animal or Private Beach to "classic films everyone loves" like The Breakfast Club where Ally Sheedy becomes fuckable by the jock because she makes herself up.

As for the racism comment as it relates to not being able to make rapists look good: " I’m not saying you can’t depict racism, or have a racist as your main character, but what you shouldn’t do is make an unrepentant racist a hero."

What about "All In The Family" or As Good as It Gets? Both those make heroes out of bigots. Sure, the characters in these pieces end up learning something, but I find it doubtful that SAI would watch these and only laugh when lessons were being learned.

[SAI]

I just wonder if there are examples where SAI appreciated the humor, or if there are other examples he can come up with.

I can think of a joke that at least discusses rape that had me almost balled up on the floor with laughter. Here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzV-bHM31SY), but the key thing about this is that the gag is NOT about rape, it's about bigotry.

As for discussing other examples... well, the whole point of this was to react to what I've seen recently and I picked on films that are (generally) freshest in my memory. Of course there were films in the 80's, 90's etc that dealt as offensively with women as the examples I cited. Perhaps this means I'm wrong about this, perhaps it isn't a new trend, just a continuation of an older one. I'm not sure which makes me sadder.

As for your point about racism I've not seen All in the Family and I don't recall As Good As It Gets well enough to comment except to say that I don't remember finding it offensive, but equally I don't remember finding it at all funny.

The Breakfast Club where Ally Sheedy becomes fuckable by the jock because she makes herself up which is every pygmalion riff ever, but saying, essentially, make the best of your natural assests is a bit different from a film that says cut your natural assets up until you conform to everyone else's ideal.

[BubbaStrangelove]

I can think of a joke that at least discusses rape that had me almost balled up on the floor with laughter. Here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzV-bHM31SY), but the key thing about this is that the gag is NOT about rape, it's about bigotry.

I'm not watching it because I can't tolerate rape humor, but I'll take your word that it's funny. Haha. No, really, if it discussed rape or whatnot then I know that there is a line for you, which is I guess what I was wondering because I felt like you were kind of just saying you have a complete intolerance for rape derived humor, which I don't really care either way. I'm not really disagreeing with anything you are saying or deriding you for being sensitive to any topics, I just can't get past your examples because you are using really broad humor type stuff to deride one subject matter. Which is I guess what your point is in that you think it's being produced for the masses nowadays, but I also think we are muddling up points here because your original post touched on a lot of different issues that sometimes overlapped and sometimes didn't. The only common thread I could find was that you liked movies I think are good, but didn't like movies I didn't think I'd like, except I liked The Ten more than you, but I also especially like sketch comedy, and I'm not like sporting a "The Ten" jersey.

As for discussing other examples... well, the whole point of this was to react to what I've seen recently and I picked on films that are (generally) freshest in my memory. Of course there were films in the 80's, 90's etc that dealt as offensively with women as the examples I cited. Perhaps this means I'm wrong about this, perhaps it isn't a new trend, just a continuation of an older one. I'm not sure which makes me sadder.

I don't think it really matters if it's a new trend or not, but I'm just saying that I don't think it is. Hey, this reminds me of another thread where you were like "Too many remakes now!" and I was like, "Always had remakes!" Am I remembering that right?

As for your point about racism I've not seen All in the Family and I don't recall As Good As It Gets well enough to comment except to say that I don't remember finding it offensive, but equally I don't remember finding it at all funny.

The Breakfast Club where Ally Sheedy becomes fuckable by the jock because she makes herself up which is every pygmalion riff ever, but saying, essentially, make the best of your natural assests is a bit different from a film that says cut your natural assets up until you conform to everyone else's ideal.

So you didn't think As Good as It Gets was funny. I wish I could come up with better examples of where these things happen in movies, but I can't. With The Breakfast Club, I had no problem either, and you're right it's a bad example. In a way it made sense though because there was that one part of the thread where we all were featured in a dancing montage.

Anyway, I kind of think that it's important to allow issues to be discussed accordingly. There's enough information out there so people can filter if they want to when they watch movies. There's a lot of ways topics can be handled in movies and comedy can be one of them. The problem with bad comedy though is that when it stinks it stinks extra bad for the viewer. I think I hear where you are coming from.

[Gilpesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zby1-1ylD0

Now, who can't laugh at that?

[Reigh Kaufman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zby1-1ylD0

Now, who can't laugh at that?

Shit. I'm a fucking hypocrite, is what I am.

Blazing Saddles - the solution to any problem.

[someguy]

I'm laughing at the accusations of racism against Crank 2 here. Really? Do you get offended when you watch Boyz N The Hood or something? That's just funny.

[Gilpesh]

You know what irks me about this rant. If you can't laugh about rape. Then you can't laugh about racism. Then you can't laugh about fat people. Then you can't laugh about retards. Then you can't laugh about sexism. Then you can't laugh about anything.

You're only allowed to sit in a little room and sit there (you're also not allowed to laugh at redundancies). Not enjoying anything. Ever.

[Potzer! 37]

[QUOTE=SAI;3026004] Rape, I can tell you with absolute certainty, isn’t funny. Ever. QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcFryjunIjw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjblKsZfjKE

More importantly, Ronnie did NOT rape the Anna Farris chick...they were drinking, she was drunk and she had sex with him. She remembered it the next moring, she didn't have a problem with it and she knew he was doing it at the time...and don't throw the argument that if she's drunk or not in control of her full reasoning that it's not rape. If a drunk guy has sex with a not drunk girl and the next day regrets it he can't call it rape. Well, he could, but it's not. "Why you stoppin' motherfucker!?" is one of the funniest lines and scenes in one of the funniest movies this year or this decade. Also, when he thought she really was unconcious he STOPPED having sex with her. Ronnie's fucking nuts, but he did stop having sex with her when he thought she was asleep. And he's not the hero, he's just the main character. Certain scenes are presented from his POV, which is why the music might swell as he kicks the shit out of kids: he beleives he's doing good...the auidence knows otherwise and is able to laugh at how goddam aburd he is...that's the point of the movie.

[Potzer! 37]

[QUOTE=SAI;3026004] Rape, I can tell you with absolute certainty, isn’t funny. Ever. QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcFryjunIjw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjblKsZfjKE

More importantly, Ronnie did NOT rape the Anna Farris chick...they were drinking, she was drunk and she had sex with him. She remembered it the next moring, she didn't have a problem with it and she knew he was doing it at the time...and don't throw the argument that if she's drunk or not in control of her full reasoning that it's not rape. If a drunk guy has sex with a not drunk girl and the next day regrets it he can't call it rape. Well, he could, but it's not. "Why you stoppin' motherfucker!?" is one of the funniest lines and scenes in one of the funniest movies this year or this decade. Also, when he thought she really was unconcious he STOPPED having sex with her. Ronnie's fucking nuts, but he did stop having sex with her when he thought she was asleep. And he's not the hero, he's just the main character. Certain scenes are presented from his POV, which is why the music might swell as he kicks the shit out of kids: he beleives he's doing good...the auidence knows otherwise and is able to laugh at how goddam aburd he is...that's the point of the movie.
For the record, I don't think rape, in and of itself, is funny. But it sure as hell can be made funny.

[Gilpesh]

Rape isn't funny. But grape is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqq051BU2MY