The Boondock Saints Incarnate (?)

[Homyrrh]

(from KansasCity.com (http://www.kansascity.com/news/breaking_news/story/1225769.html))

Posted on Sun, May. 31, 2009
Suspect in slaying of abortion provider George Tiller being returned to Wichita
BY STAN FINGER AND JOE RODRIGUEZ
The Wichita Eagle

A suspect in this morning's fatal shooting of abortion doctor George Tiller is in custody and on his way back to Wichita, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said at a news conference late this afternoon.

The 51-year-old male suspect was arrested without incident on Interstate 35 in Johnson County about three hours after the shooting, Stolz said.

Police did not release the suspect's name.

The investigation is in its "infancy stages," Stolz said. He said the shooting appeared to be an isolated act.

Tiller, 67, was shot once just after 10 a.m. in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church at 7601 E. 13th St., where he was a member of the congregation.

Stolz said Tiller was shot in the foyer of the church. There were three or four eyewitnesses, he said. Six to 12 people were in the foyer at the time of the shooting.

Two men attempted to apprehend the suspect, but he pointed a gun at them and threatened them before fleeing, Stolz said.

The suspect's car -- a light blue Ford Taurus registered to an owner in Merriam -- was spotted just south of Gardner by two Johnson County Sheriff's deputies. The sheriff's office had suspected that the man would be coming back to his home on I-35, and the deputies waited for him.

As the car was spotted going north on the highway, the deputies followed and were quickly joined by three other sheriff's patrol cars.

Lt. Mike Pfannenstiel of the Johnson County Sheriff's office said officers pulled the car over just south of the main Gardner exit and got out with guns drawn. The man then got out of his car with his hands up.

"We took him down without incident," Pfannenstiel said, adding that the man appeared to be driving the speed limit and made no attempt to elude the deputies.

Stolz said police anticipate the suspect will be charged with murder and two counts of aggravated assault. Investigators will present the case to the Sedgwick County District Attorney's Office on Monday.

The district attorney's office will determine what charges will be filed, Stolz said. Federal charges are also a possibility, he said.

Tiller was serving as an usher at the church, one of six ushers listed in the church bulletin. He was handing out bulletins to people going into the sanctuary minutes before being shot.

Tiller's family issued a statement through Wichita attorneys Dan Monnat and Lee Thompson:

"Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today's event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George's friends and patients.

"This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

Wichita police Capt. Brent Allred said that several law enforcement agencies -- including the FBI and the KBI -- have been called in to help with the case.

Allred said the 10 a.m. church service had already begun at the time of the shooting.

Homicide detectives and Sedgwick County District Attorney Nola Foulston arrived at the church after the shooting.

Members of the congregation who were inside the sanctuary at the time of the shooting were kept inside by police, and those arriving were ushered into the parking lot immediately after the shooting.

Witnesses later were transported downtown for interviews and other members of the congregation were slowly released from inside the sanctuary.

By 12:30 p.m., what appeared to be a body was taken away in an SUV with a patrol car behind it.

At about 12:40, a police dog was taken to check out a black SUV. An investigator wrote down the tag number on the vehicle.

Tiller has long been a focal point of protest by abortion opponents because his clinic, Women's Health Care Services at 5107 E. Kellogg, is one of the few in the country where late-term abortions are performed.

"It's a terrible loss. I'm just really sad about the whole thing," said a former employee of the clinic who asked not to be identified. "He was a great guy. I understand people were against a lot of what he did, but for those who he helped, they'll never forget the kind of person he was."

Mark Mitchell, who lives near where the shooting occurred, said he knew Tiller attended Reformation Lutheran Church because of the periodic protests there and media coverage.

He said the protests would sometimes be as large as two dozen people. The last protest he can remember there was in the fall.

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," anti-abortion group Operation Rescue said in a statement on its Web site. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ."

Protesters blockaded Tiller's clinic during Operation Rescue's "Summer of Mercy" protests during the summer of 1991, and Tiller was shot by Rachelle Shannon at his clinic in 1993. Tiller was wounded in both arms, and Shannon remains in prison for the shooting.

The clinic was bombed in June 1986, and was severely vandalized earlier this month. According to the Associated Press, his lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings' downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.

No arrests were made in the 1986 bombing.

Sgt. Bart Brunscheen of the Wichita Police Department said earlier today that there has been no activity today at Tiller's clinic, although security crews were being brought in to make sure the building was secure. Officials also were going to check the clinic's security cameras to see if there was any activity over night.

Tiller and his clinic have faced continuous threats and lawsuits. A Wichita jury ruled in March that he was not guilty on 19 criminal charges he faced for allegedly violating a state law requiring an "independent" second physician's concurring opinion before performing later term abortions. Immediately following the ruling in this criminal case, the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts made public a similar complaint against Tiller that was originally filed in December 2008.

Former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, who conducted an investigation into Tiller, said in a statement he was "stunned by this lawless and violent act which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law. We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."

[Homyrrh]

(from The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?_r=1&hp))

[screamer581]

Absolutely sickening. "Pro life" until they are out of the womb, eh?

[Preston_79]

I guess...


Very tragic. I think late term abortions should only be performed to save the life of the mother, and are otherwise for pathetic, self absorbed, idiots who don't want to step up and be responsible, but....still.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[SAI]

This is where I find the extreme wing of the pro-life movement very odd indeed. Surely the whole POINT of the pro life idea is that all life is sacred, isn't it? Really, is there a stupider or more contradictory action than killing in the name of the pro-life cause?

If you're so fucking pro life go adopt some unwanted children, at least that way you're helping provide an alternative to abortion.

[someguy]

Far right conservatives live off of hypocrisy, a lot of them don't even see it. What are the chances that this killer realized he was a pro-lifer committing murder in a church?

[Potter82]

I think this is pretty counter productive if you ask me.

His murder and especially how it was committed (in church!) will likely result in the doctor being remebered in glowing terms (as happens to everyone who is assassinated) and will further tarnish the reputation of pro-life movement as a whole by contributing to the belief that it is composed of a bunch of religious whack jobs - and it won't end here, I bet you'll hear some conservative pundit tomorrow say "he got what he deserved", "give that man a medal!" or something else to that effect which will play well to their audience (and will perhaps contribute to similar crimes in the future) but will likely horrify and sicken everyone else.

[Badbird]

Fucked up shit - and right in my back yard no less.

Seriously, these ultra-pro-lifers are nothing short of domestic terrorists and should be treated as such.

I work with a woman who used to work at Planned Parenthood several years ago. She and a couple other female employees were basically stalked by one crazy guy. She had been followed to her home and saw this guy watching her house from the street.

This kind of shit happens everywhere, all the time.

You know how people will complain about normal Muslims not doing enough to disown Muslim extremists? Well, normal Christians certainly aren't doing enough to disown these freaks.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Some of these rabid pro-lifers clearly think that abortion doctors are bloodthirsty sociopaths who get a thrill out of aborting fetuses. They are a cartoonish breed of people.

[Homyrrh]

Let's think critically...if I whack you, the late-term abortion murderer now, I stop you from slaughtering innocent children in the future...:rolleyes:

On a serious note, my staunch pro-life stance is the product of some critical consideration of the issue, primarily the preservation of an innocent human life. How murdering any individual, regardless of his livelihood, is loyal to a pro-life doctrine and/or the Sixth Commandment is unfathomable.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

On a serious note, my staunch pro-life stance is the product of some critical consideration of the issue, primarily the preservation of an innocent human life.

This is an honest and respectable viewpoint. I can certainly understand the opposition to abortion, even if I don't agree with that stance. But the people who are on the fringe of this issue are becoming part of a dangerous movement. It's not just the people who commit the murders, either. The people who push baby carriages with bloody dolls and fly planes that have banners with pictures of dead fetuses (this actually happened at Notre Dame) are just as responsible for these murders because they contribute to this deranged mindset.

[The Heart Collector]

Really, is there a stupider or more contradictory action than killing in the name of the pro-life cause?


... Yes?

It's a simple utilitarian viewpoint. You are killing one person to save a potential amount of lives that is more than one. Even if it was only one, though, that life would be worth 'more' than the life of someone who takes life.

Most of society agrees with this and wouldn't see anything wrong with the police shooting a felon/potential felon to protect the life of someone he or she is endangering.

[Potter82]

Here's something I've been thinking about; since this guy was an usher in his church, he clearly had a degree of religious faith and must've been accepted at least somewhat in his church. That definitely goes against the stereotype I think most people have when it comes to abortion doctors...

Here's a question though; How do you think Dr. Miller managed to reconcile his performance of late term abortions with his faith, which condemns such actions?

You could ask the same thing as a killer but that's pretty obvious; he probably thought that by committing one evil, he could prevent others. Not that that justifies his actions in any way but I can understand how he could have reconciled those two apparently contradictory beliefs, less so in the case of the doctor.

By the way, yesterday I predicted that we would hear a right wing pundit say something in support of this guy - to my surprise, I haven't heard about any such comments. Perhaps there is a line in the sand afterall when it comes to this debate; advocating murder. Yay?

[Potter82]

... Yes?

It's a simple utilitarian viewpoint. You are killing one person to save a potential amount of lives that is more than one. Even if it was only one, though, that life would be worth 'more' than the life of someone who takes life.

Most of society agrees with this and wouldn't see anything wrong with the police shooting a felon/potential felon to protect the life of someone he or she is endangering.

I agree.

Most people just disagree over when this line should be crossed.

Personally I can conceive of some scenarios where murder could be considered justifiable - this isn't one of them. Of course the law must be applied no matter how jusified the killing may seem to someone, or we would have anarchy.

[Badbird]

Here's some shocking news: Bill O'Reilly has been waging his own personal crusade against this doctor for years, having some 29 different segments on his show about it where he labels the doctor as "Tiller the baby killer."

Collection of clips here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/bill-oreilly-crusaded-aga_n_209665.html)

And so today he has to defend himself, here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/bill-oreilly-defends-his_n_210056.html)


It's funny how these guys think that "liberal hate speech" (such as unpatriotic, anti-war protests, etc.) can have literal consequences (making our enemies hate us more, or just "embolden" them in general). Yet the vile puke they regurgitate could in no way have harmful effects on reality.

One man shoots up a Unitarian church because he hates liberals and can't get to anyone on the list of "100 Liberals who are Ruining the Country" - an anti-liberal book.

Another man shoots three cops dead in front of his house because he was sure Obama was coming for his guns.

And now this doctor is murdered.


In the end, these killers were mental cases that needed help, but instead they were helped over the edge by the endless parade of right wing hate who all but handed these guys a hit list and said "happy hunting."

[Homyrrh]

Here's some shocking news: Bill O'Reilly has been waging his own personal crusade against this doctor for years, having some 29 different segments on his show about it where he labels the doctor as "Tiller the baby killer."

Collection of clips here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/bill-oreilly-crusaded-aga_n_209665.html)

And so today he has to defend himself, here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/bill-oreilly-defends-his_n_210056.html)


It's funny how these guys think that "liberal hate speech" (such as unpatriotic, anti-war protests, etc.) can have literal consequences (making our enemies hate us more, or just "embolden" them in general). Yet the vile puke they regurgitate could in no way have harmful effects on reality.

One man shoots up a Unitarian church because he hates liberals and can't get to anyone on the list of "100 Liberals who are Ruining the Country" - an anti-liberal book.

Another man shoots three cops dead in front of his house because he was sure Obama was coming for his guns.

And now this doctor is murdered.


In the end, these killers were mental cases that needed help, but instead they were helped over the edge by the endless parade of right wing hate who all but handed these guys a hit list and said "happy hunting."
That's a bit of a stretch to say Bill O'Reilly killed this guy, indirectly or otherwise. I agreed with O'Reilly's stance on Tiller--he was a baby killer, plain and simple. I didn't contemplate killing him. The conclusion is that this individual was not sane.

[The Heart Collector]

I am not sure most people define "baby" as "fetus", so it is not in fact that plain and simple.

[SAI]

I agreed with O'Reilly's stance on Tiller--he was a baby killer, plain and simple. I didn't contemplate killing him. The conclusion is that this individual was not sane.

It is neither plain nor simple. It depends when you think a developing fetus becomes truly human, it depends what choice you would ultimately make as regards a late term abortion where a Mother's life is endangered by continuing the pregnancy. It depends whether you regard abortion as murder. There is room for plenty of debate on these questions, but the fact that we ARE still debating them, and that they are still controversial enough to get people killed demonstrates very clearly how plain and simple these issues aren't.

[Badbird]

That's a bit of a stretch to say Bill O'Reilly killed this guy, indirectly or otherwise. I agreed with O'Reilly's stance on Tiller--he was a baby killer, plain and simple. I didn't contemplate killing him. The conclusion is that this individual was not sane.

The point is you can't have it both ways. You can't say that vocal dissent from the left can be detrimental or even harmful, and then say that endless hate speech from the right causes no harm.

This doctor never would have been singled out had it not be for BillO and his ilk crying bloody murder over something that, frankly, was completely legal under Kansas Law.

[Homyrrh]

I am not sure most people define "baby" as "fetus", so it is not in fact that plain and simple.

It is neither plain nor simple. It depends when you think a developing fetus becomes truly human, it depends what choice you would ultimately make as regards a late term abortion where a Mother's life is endangered by continuing the pregnancy. It depends whether you regard abortion as murder. There is room for plenty of debate on these questions, but the fact that we ARE still debating them, and that they are still controversial enough to get people killed demonstrates very clearly how plain and simple these issues aren't.
I am indeed wrong about this, that it isn't necessarily "plain and simple". I do not, however, see any glint of morality in partial-birth abortions.
The point is you can't have it both ways. You can't say that vocal dissent from the left can be detrimental or even harmful, and then say that endless hate speech from the right causes no harm.

This doctor never would have been singled out had it not be for BillO and his ilk crying bloody murder over something that, frankly, was completely legal under Kansas Law.

I still can't understand your point. The individual who murdered this abortion doctor was not of a sound mental state. I also do not recall Bill O'Reilly crying for this doctor's head on a post. I have a dispositional contempt for several politicians, but Bill O'Reilly has yet to have me contemplate whacking Nancy Pelosi.

[Criminal Rock]

If anti-abortionists/republican talking heads hadn't made his name and face so prominent on TV and hadn't called him a "murderer" and "baby killer", among other labels, chances are a lesser amount of crazy assholes, assholes like Scott Roeder, would know who he is and what he does for a living, and perhaps he would still be alive today.

[Homyrrh]

If anti-abortionists/republican talking heads hadn't made his name and face so prominent on TV and hadn't called him a "murderer" and "baby killer", among other labels, chances are a lesser amount of crazy assholes, assholes like Scott Roeder, would know who he is and what he does for a living, and perhaps he would still be alive today.
Yeah, I can't argue the jist of this, that if his name wasn't thrown around as such then he probably wouldn't be a target. But is it the fault of conservative pundits that they criticized someone for something like late-term abortions. While there are two sides of the issue, I think there is, for once at least, some merit on the right for condemning a legitimate issue (i.e. -- as opposed to whatever Rush's latest ploy might be).

[Potter82]

I am indeed wrong about this, that it isn't necessarily "plain and simple". I do not, however, see any glint of morality in partial-birth abortions..

From what I've heard, a lot of these late term abortions performed by Dr. Tiller occured in situations where the mother's life was at risk if they gave birth or in cases where it was ascertained that the baby/fetus was likely to have severe and possibly fatal birth defects (though I'm sure these were not always the case).Personally, in situations like that, I can see how a late term abortion can be justified - especially when a mother's life is at risk. Also I couldn't imagine how hard it would be for a woman to carry a child to term, only to know that it either will be stillborn or will die almost immediately after birth... so in that sense, I can't bring myself to pass judgment on a woman or abortion doctor in that situation.

... however, to be honest, I'm not comfortable with the idea of a late term abortion being performed where there are no health cocerns present in either the case of the mother or the fetus/child... with all the various means of birth control available, it shouldn't get to that point

As others have said on this board, I find it a very difficult issue.

I still can't understand your point. The individual who murdered this abortion doctor was not of a sound mental state. I also do not recall Bill O'Reilly crying for this doctor's head on a post. I have a dispositional contempt for several politicians, but Bill O'Reilly has yet to have me contemplate whacking Nancy Pelosi.

I heard the same thing on CNN recently. According to his ex-wife he had diagnosed with schizophrenia and had become obssessed with the issue of abortion, so he may very well have been a ticking time bomb... Still, people like O'Reilly, who casually referred to this guy as baby killer and talked about him like he was a war criminal helped to dehumanize the guy, especially in the eyes of the mentally ill - and it's way easier to kill someone that you come to think of as being less than human. I wish people would be a bit more measured and moderate in their rhetoric because while most of us don't take it very seriously, some clearly do.

[Badbird]

Many of the abortions Dr. Tiller performed were due to the fact that the babies had become malformed and most likely would not live. Babies that had no brains, or spines, or kidneys, etc.

He had been shot twice before and had his clinic bombed. There is a fascinating article of the threats and adversity he faced every single day here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/02/george-tiller-refused-to_n_210202.html)

Here's an article from a former pro-lifer explaining why he feels that he, and other pro-life leaders, are to blame for the murder. Here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html)

[Homyrrh]

From what I've heard, a lot of these late term abortions performed by Dr. Miller occured in situations where the mother's life was at risk if they gave birth or in cases where it was ascertained that the baby/fetus was likely to have severe and possibly fatal birth defects (though I'm sure these were not always the case).Personally, in situations like that, I can see how a late term abortion can be justified - especially when a mother's life is at risk. Also I couldn't imagine how hard it would be for a woman to carry a child to term, only to know that it either will be stillborn or will die almost immediately after birth... so in that sense, I can't bring myself to pass judgment on a woman or abortion doctor in that situation.

... however, to be honest, I'm not comfortable with the idea of a late term abortion being performed where there are no health cocerns present in either the case of the mother or the fetus/child... with all the various means of birth control available, it shouldn't get to that point

As others have said on this board, I find it a very difficult issue.



I heard the same thing on CNN recently. According to his ex-wife he had diagnosed with schizophrenia and had become obssessed with the issue of abortion, so he may very well have been a ticking time bomb... Still, people like O'Reilly, who casually referred to this guy as baby killer and talked about him like he was a war criminal helped to dehumanize the guy, especially in the eyes of the mentally ill - and it's way easier to kill someone that you come to think of as being less than human. I wish people would be a bit more measured and moderate in their rhetoric because while most of us don't take it very seriously, some clearly do.
(A) Yes, when the life of the mother is threatened, abortion can be legitimate. However, as a lay, ignorant citizen with hardly any medical knowledge, the point at which many late-term/partial-birth abortions are performed seems pretty much after the fact.

(B) "Dehumanizing" perhaps, but the whole argument is an assertion that Bill O'Reilly must modify and censor his broadcasts so as to ensure that schizo-fritzes (sp?) stay at home. In other words, that he is liable for the actions of the mentally ill. While conservative broadcasts that condemned the doctor were admittedly fuel to the fire and probably dehumanizing, to say it is anything more than "not helping the matter" is just partisan hogwash.

[Homyrrh]

Many of the abortions Dr. Tiller performed were due to the fact that the babies had become malformed and most likely would not live. Babies that had no brains, or spines, or kidneys, etc.

He had been shot twice before and had his clinic bombed. There is a fascinating article of the threats and adversity he faced every single day here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/02/george-tiller-refused-to_n_210202.html)

Here's an article from a former pro-lifer explaining why he feels that he, and other pro-life leaders, are to blame for the murder. Here. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/how-i-and-other-pro-life_b_209747.html)
I was typing as you posted. I'll get back to this and read the artiles I'd started tomorrow morning. Test on convergence of inifinite sums and alternating series tomorrow morning :(

[Criminal Rock]

The point is Bill O'Reilly's generalization of abortions and uninformed/baseless rants against it and against doctors like Tiller helped pave the way for fuckface's like Scott Reoder to have an excuse to kill them. There is no getting around this. I'm not saying Bill is 100 percent at fault for his death, but it was very irresponsible of him in the sense that he, A) didn't approach the issue realistically and without bias, and B) explicitly pandered to the far right in his rants knowing (and we all know he does) that crazy fuckface's like Scott Reoder watch his show.

[Badbird]

The fact that BillO went out of his way to strongly defend himself shows that he shares some of the blame. He even backed down a little from his original comments the other night.

[Homyrrh]

The point is Bill O'Reilly's generalization of abortions and uninformed/baseless rants against it and against doctors like Tiller helped pave the way for fuckface's like Scott Reoder to have an excuse to kill them. There is no getting around this. I'm not saying Bill is 100 percent at fault for his death, but it was very irresponsible of him in the sense that he, A) didn't approach the issue realistically and without bias, and B) explicitly pandered to the far right in his rants knowing (and we all know he does) that crazy fuckface's like Scott Reoder watch his show.
I'm glad we can agree that Bill O'Reilly is not 100% responsible for Tiller's death.