Religion

[countchocula]

Yep. I'm creating a religion thread. Do you believe in God?

I'll post my thoughts later. I just wanted to get the ball rolling.

[Mr. Fred Krueger]

Wooh, this thread could get dangerous in the future. Haha. But, to answer your question, yes I do believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ His son. I also believe that we are all sinners, and are all imperfect in the eyes of God--despite what the self righteous evangelists think.

[Pentangeli]

I'm an agnostic-theist.

I don't subscribe to any organised religion. But I do take an almost Positive Christianity perspective of Christianity. I don't value the Old Testament, which I see as no more than a series of folktales. I don't value the importance of kneeling before a crucified man. I see Jesus as a revolutionary, fighting against corruption, including Rabbis who would only offer help to those giving money. And I value Jesus' teachings and actions of being compassionate to others, for it's own sake, i.e not to get something in return or to take advantage of people.

[countchocula]

I don't call myself anything. I have my own set of beliefs, and that's good enough for me. I agree with parts of humanism, agnosticm, athiesm, and Satanism. But all of those systems are flawed. I'm curious if there are any Satanists on the boards. I've been called a Satanist before, but I find the Church of Satan to be just as dopey and hypocritical as any other religion.

I'm not looking for a debate; this is just a field of interest.

[John Galt]

I'm a secular humanist.

There is no god, only chaos. Faith is basically the surrender of reason and the suspension of thought. We created god in our image.

As I stated in another thread, I find it a complete waste of time putting one ounce of energy anywhere involving religion. We can only advance as a human species when we can just completely get past it. I'd rather spend my time and energy anywhere else.

So I won't waste any more time in this thread(unless somone has a direct question for me).

[countchocula]

"This thread is a waste of time...off to the Celeb Talk forum!"

;)

[Nima]

Nima predicts this shall not end well.

[Smarmy Douche]

I'm not thick enough to be religious, but I'm also not naive enough to be an "atheist". Though that term is flawed, because it supposes that the only kind of "God" for someone to not believe in is a theistic one. I am an anti-theist. I see no way in which theism itself is not objectively false, goofy, and retarded, however I see no reason to piss on deism or Spinoza's god.

There might be something that inhabits a God-like role, but I don't really care whether there is or there isn't. I'm too busy living to preoccupy myself with dying, which is the only reason religion exists in the first place.

That's my two-sense.

This will be an entertaining thread if it doesn't implode in a fireball first. Imma go make some popcorn.

Edit/ Also, thick was just the first word that came to mind, I wouldn't be stupid enough to say that all religous people are totally thick, only that I believe to be religious is thick.

[Jig Saw 123]

If I were to be labeled something it would be an atheist. I don't believe in any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions that currently exist or ever did exist. They're too flawed and don't have enough rationality to support their claims. I believe we did evolve from a complex organism some millions of years ago and we will continue to evolve as time elapses and as we face different environmental shifts and changes. Religion is like money when you have more faith in something you feel a lot safer and look more forward to your future. Its basically a scapegoat to escape reality and continuous problems that have plagued us since the first civilizations came into existence.

[Vong]

Born Roman Catholic, but then I grew up and stopped believing in superstition and became atheist.

I'm leaning towards Buddhism right now, since its all about acquiring knowledge and achieving personal enlightenment. None of that god-worshipping stuff.

[Jon Lyrik]

Variously raised Roman Catholic, agnostic and Baptist. Long story there.

But since I was say 10 years old? Not at all.

[BlownCamaro]

Southern Baptist turned Methodist. So yes I do believe in God.

[john_rambo]

I consider myself a non denominational Christian. Not one of those "you are all going to hell blah blah blah", Christians that focus on what you are not supposed to do and sin in the process by judging others. But one of those that tries to do what is right, and will talk freely about my religion with anyone who wants to hear, but I am never going to force it on someone.

[someguy]

I believe in God...I don't think he's a guy in a long white beard or anything though. I mean God could totally be like a force. He could be a leaf, or this website's servers or something you know?

[john_rambo]

I believe in God...I don't think he's a guy in a long white beard or anything though. I mean God could totally be like a force. He could be a leaf, or this website's servers or something you know?

Maybe... JoBlo is God!

[adamjohnson]

I believe in God...I don't think he's a guy in a long white beard or anything though. I mean God could totally be like a force. He could be a leaf, or this website's servers or something you know?

If God existed his only act was that of the Big Bang - the big space and time creating incident that no one can wrap their heads around. Before this moment, there was a void, there was not even time - and then after it, there was all the matter in the universe.

Matter can not be made or unmade, mind you. (or is that energy?)

[NathanRomano]

I believe in God...I don't think he's a guy in a long white beard or anything though. I mean God could totally be like a force. He could be a leaf, or this website's servers or something you know?

Is that a Stella reference?

I am the same as john_rambo. Pretty much point to point.

[Tweek]

I identify myself as agnostic. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


Nima predicts this shall not end well.

Tweek agrees.

I believe in God...I don't think he's a guy in a long white beard or anything though. I mean God could totally be like a force. He could be a leaf, or this website's servers or something you know?

"Literally God could be this table."

[Nima]

Matter can not be made or unmade, mind you. (or is that energy?)

It's energy. Matter is made up of energy.

[Miss Vicky]

I do not believe in God nor follow any established religion.

I do understand, though, why some people need to have religion in their lives. It gives them a sense of purpose, something to hang on to during hard times, and something to give them hope.

On the other hand, some of the most hateful, intolerant people I've ever met have been people who consider themselves devout Christians. Also, religion has been used across the ages as an excuse for people to do some really heinous things to each other. So I tend to be rather leary of anyone wears their religion on their sleeve, so to speak.

[adamjohnson]

On a side note, my very conservative family was very angry over a college professor's dismissal because he refused to teach anything other than Creationism is a Science course.

Thank God I am not that stupid.

Ask them if they believe in Evolution. Cold, hard, scientific fact. And they say "It's all a Devil's lie."

Dear Christ!

[BlownCamaro]

On the other hand, some of the most hateful, intolerant people I've ever met have been people who consider themselves devout Christians.



I have met an equally amount of hateful Atheists (used to be one and only hang with others like myself) as I have Christians or Muslims. IMO religion plays no part in how much of an asshole someone is, it is just in their genes or in their up bringing from what I can tell.

[g1ng3rsnap9ed]

I believe in God, the thing is that I'm finding out that I may hate Him. :o

[Nima]

On a side note, my very conservative family was very angry over a college professor's dismissal because he refused to teach anything other than Creationism is a Science course.

Thank God I am not that stupid.

Ask them if they believe in Evolution. Cold, hard, scientific fact. And they say "It's all a Devil's lie."

Dear Christ!

I am physically incapable of understanding how people can think like that.

[Terror Australis]

Nima predicts this shall not end well.

I agree and it doesn't look pretty.

http://www.pointedmagazine.com/library/boxing%20page%20photo.jpg
http://www.gbring.com/sokuho/result/images/061103chaos_11.jpg
http://badcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/street-fight.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/picture/5433/fight.jpg
http://www.hollywoodtoday.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/fighting.jpg
http://www.pillow-fighting.com/pillow-fighting.jpg
http://www.careercapitalist.com/.a/6a00d8345275cf69e20115709dd046970b-800wi

....and then....

http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-02/nuclear-bomb-badger.jpg

:D

P.S. In case any was wondering, I am faithful church-going Catholic. Always have and always will. However also like john rambo I'm not one those hollier than thou judgemental Old-Testament christians who thinks that everyone is going to Hell (as a matter off fact I don't like Evangelicals at all, I believe they give my faith a bad name) and I don't force my beliefs on anyone else. Plus there are many aspects of my religion that I don't agree with at all (eg. Politics, homosexuality, evolution, etc. These topics I have my own opinions on) I admit that there are some negatives about religion but I personally more on the positive aspects. Like love, respect and help your fellow man and just try to live a good person. That's what I've grow up to believe and it's worked out for me well so far.

[The Postmaster General]

I believe we are a long ways off from finding anything close to being absolute.

[Danger^Cart]

I hold with the Star Wars doctrine, and I fully believe that if I can achieve the level of faith Vader had, I too will be able to choke people with God.

[BakeTheMooCow]

Can we stop with all the predictions about how the thread will not end well and actually stick to the topic?

Thank you.

[Mr. Fred Krueger]

I consider myself a non denominational Christian. Not one of those "you are all going to hell blah blah blah", Christians that focus on what you are not supposed to do and sin in the process by judging others. But one of those that tries to do what is right, and will talk freely about my religion with anyone who wants to hear, but I am never going to force it on someone.

That's my exact line of thinking as well, John. I've never understood the Christians who spout to others on how they're all sinners and going to hell. We're all sinners, and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice was so that we all may be saved. However, even with his sacrifice we still fall short in the eyes of God.

And I totally hear you on just doing what I feel is right, and never forcing my religion on others. That's not what we Christians are supposed to do. Christ never forced his views on others, and neither should we.

[Badbird]

I'm an atheist. I don't beat around the bush and try and call it something nice to make others feel less threatened (IE, Freethinker, humanist, etc.). It is what it is.

And I honestly do think it is that simple and pure black and white.

[jolanar]

I'm a deist. I think it's the most logical choice.

[jeo4]

I was raised "New Apostolic" (crap religion) and then as a family, we blew it off. My parents say they believe in God, but wouldn't dare take the time to research to topic or actively participate in any organized church program. I tried several different belief systems. I became a baptist several years ago and have since left the church. But I think a lot of topics are different in the real world than I've been taught as a child. As an adult, I went back to the New Apostolic church, and it seemed like a cult. But so many denominations are just as bad, I don't believe most of them. I don't believe everything the religious right tells me and I believe it less if it comes from a political figure.

That said, I believe there's someone/something out there that created us. It could be a life force or it could be an essence of some sort. Whatever it is, I think there is a God. I'm inclined to believe some of what I was taught, but I question more of it now than I believe. There are too many crazy people involved in religion to just blindly follow everything that one person says.

[Terror Australis]

That's my exact line of thinking as well, John. I've never understood the Christians who spout to others on how they're all sinners and going to hell. We're all sinners, and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice was so that we all may be saved. However, even with his sacrifice we still fall short in the eyes of God.

And I totally hear you on just doing what I feel is right, and never forcing my religion on others. That's not what we Christians are supposed to do. Christ never forced his views on others, and neither should we.

I agree with you 100%.

[FLAME_ON]

What I've never understood about religion, faith, and whatnot is how people buy into it... How do you just believe? How are you just handed a book and think, "Oh, this must be real."? How do you not think about all the religions of the world--and through out history--and still find legitimacy? How is Jesus any different from Zeus? Because we have the bible? Because there were groups of people that claimed he was real and lived a divine life?

I tend to think that if I was raised without knowledge of divinity, educated, and lived a life of experience, if someone walked up to me and told me about god, I'd say "What the fuck are you talking about? No, this is how the world works..."



I don't get it and never have. I was brought up in Catholic/Christian church before I could even remember and as soon as I could actually think, I questioned it all, sat through services thinking "What the fuck are these people going on about?", and again asked myself "What the fuck are all these people going on about?"

I believe there's an element of narcissism with religion; people become aware of their consciousness and mortality and think there's needs to be some insurance, some type of back up plan, a reason for it all. And moreover, I think people have this logic of: here's a house--someone built that, here's a wheel--someone built that, here's a book--someone wrote this... and they apply that to trees, animals, our planet, the universe and think, "Well here's all this--someone built that."
I don't think that's the case.
I believe in the natural occurring universe, I might not be able to explain it, but also not going to buy into the idea that there's a creator because people of thousands of years couldn't explain it so they manufactured something.

And another note, the bases for religion started years and years ago with people "talking to god" and "doing god's work"... Why did that stop? Why aren't we getting updates from god? Why did the bible stop? Why are "biblical times" over? Some argue that they haven't or that the bible states that there's a beginning and an end to the book. But come on... human beings smarted up... We just decided that going to heaven sounds a hell of a lot better than your brain discontinuing and your body rotting in the ground only to be forgotten 100 years later.

Atheist.

[Darth Kenshin]

What I've never understood about religion, faith, and whatnot is how people buy into it... How do you just believe? How are you just handed a book and think, "Oh, this must be real."? How do you not think about all the religions of the world--and through out history--and still find legitimacy? How is Jesus any different from Zeus? Because we have the bible? Because there were groups of people that claimed he was real and lived a divine life?

I tend to think that if I was raised without knowledge of divinity, educated, and lived a life of experience, if someone walked up to me and told me about god, I'd say "What the fuck are you talking about? No, this is how the world works..."



I don't get it and never have. I was brought up in Catholic/Christian church before I could even remember and as soon as I could actually think, I questioned it all, sat through services thinking "What the fuck are these people going on about?", and again asked myself "What the fuck are all these people going on about?"

I believe there's an element of narcissism with religion; people become aware of their consciousness and mortality and think there's needs to be some insurance, some type of back up plan, a reason for it all. And moreover, I think people have this logic of: here's a house--someone built that, here's a wheel--someone built that, here's a book--someone wrote this... and they apply that to trees, animals, our planet, the universe and think, "Well here's all this--someone built that."
I don't think that's the case.
I believe in the natural occurring universe, I might not be able to explain it, but also not going to buy into the idea that there's a creator because people of thousands of years couldn't explain it so they manufactured something.

And another note, the bases for religion started years and years ago with people "talking to god" and "doing god's work"... Why did that stop? Why aren't we getting updates from god? Why did the bible stop? Why are "biblical times" over? Some argue that they haven't or that the bible states that there's a beginning and an end to the book. But come on... human beings smarted up... We just decided that going to heaven sounds a hell of a lot better than your brain discontinuing and your body rotting in the ground only to be forgotten 100 years later.

Atheist.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I just wanted to answer your first question (the part i bolded). I can only speak about Christianity, but the idea is as older and older scrolls are uncovered (septuagint, dead sea scrolls, etc.) we see that parts of the bible accurately predicted events in the future. Older and older texts show the consistency of the bible throughout, and even bring out accurate prophecies (such as when Jesus would be born). The idea is that if part of it is true, why doubt the rest of it? Of course, it's not the most full-proof ideology, but that's what requires a "leap of faith." Not everyone finds that reasonable, though, and I can certainly understand why.

That's my exact line of thinking as well, John. I've never understood the Christians who spout to others on how they're all sinners and going to hell. We're all sinners, and the purpose of Christ's sacrifice was so that we all may be saved. However, even with his sacrifice we still fall short in the eyes of God.

And I totally hear you on just doing what I feel is right, and never forcing my religion on others. That's not what we Christians are supposed to do. Christ never forced his views on others, and neither should we.

Hell is the most illogical teaching I've ever heard. Why would a relatively short lifetime of sin (70-80 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things) lead to an ETERNITY of suffering? I could never subscribe to a religion that taught there was a Hell. Hell just doesn't make sense (at least, if you believe in an omnipotent, infallible God), but to each his own. All we can do is live a good life, as you said. Do what is right, speak to others who are curious about religion, but never force it on others and, most importantly, never judge others.

[Miss Vicky]

I have met an equally amount of hateful Atheists (used to be one and only hang with others like myself) as I have Christians or Muslims. IMO religion plays no part in how much of an asshole someone is, it is just in their genes or in their up bringing from what I can tell.

But religion is a huge part in many people's upbringing and therefore is a key factor in the shaping of their beliefs of what is right and what is wrong. So I really don't see how you can separate one's religion from one's upbringing, unless that person converted as an adult, rather than being raised with a certain religion.

[QUENTIN]

I was raised "New Apostolic" (crap religion) and then as a family, we blew it off. My parents say they believe in God, but wouldn't dare take the time to research to topic or actively participate in any organized church program. I tried several different belief systems. I became a baptist several years ago and have since left the church. But I think a lot of topics are different in the real world than I've been taught as a child. As an adult, I went back to the New Apostolic church, and it seemed like a cult. But so many denominations are just as bad, I don't believe most of them. I don't believe everything the religious right tells me and I believe it less if it comes from a political figure.

That said, I believe there's someone/something out there that created us. It could be a life force or it could be an essence of some sort. Whatever it is, I think there is a God. I'm inclined to believe some of what I was taught, but I question more of it now than I believe. There are too many crazy people involved in religion to just blindly follow everything that one person says.

Shot in the dark: You know any people from church with the last name Hess? One of my good friends was New Apostolic and was in a big, extended family that included lots of elders and top echelon people in the national church. They were based in the St. Louis area too, so not too far from KC. They were big time assholes, her grandfather called her a whore and blamed her for getting raped, but I figured it was worth a shot.

I'm a secular humanist.


Ditto, there's one thing we agree on. I've also variously called myself an agnostic, and curious but unpersuaded. Ultimately I believe in people, and that we know much less than is necessary to make such decisions, but I've never felt any kind of higher presence.

I guess I'm fairly anti-religion, in the sense that I think it's a corrupting, mostly negative influence, but I get nearly as annoyed with all the die hard atheists going on angry crusades to abolish religion and blaming it for all the troubles of the world as I do with their religious counterparts. I think religion is more often an excuse for bad deeds than the actual root of them, and there are a fair amount of benefits it can have for good and thoughtful people who believe.

[Lotis]

All I hafta say is, in the words of Homer Simpson: God bless those Pagans. :D

[Pentangeli]

If God existed his only act was that of the Big Bang - the big space and time creating incident that no one can wrap their heads around. Before this moment, there was a void, there was not even time - and then after it, there was all the matter in the universe.)

I have a similar view, that God's another dimension, and the Big Bang came from that dimension. I'm not sure about the "void" part of your thesis.

[God of War]

I believe that there is only one true God. And that he and only created the entire universe and everything in it. This one God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. He just is. Try fathoming that. He has one son, Jesus Christ who now resides in heaven with his father plus billions of heavenly guardians known as angels. We humankind are all imperfect and sinners in their eyes. We are this way because the first people, Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of eden. They were infact our earthly mother and father. But they screwed up bigtime due to Satan decieving them and therefore earning God's distrust. That's why we all get sick, grow old and die. The human condition this is known as sometimes.. Adam and Eve were two perfect human beings. Another somewhat difficult concept to grasp when you consider that there is no such thing as perfection in this world.

People make light of the day known as armageddon. But it is foretold in the bible that this day is infact real. And that we are spiraling ever closer to this inevitable climax. The bible also tells of things that have come to pass and will come to pass, such as the crumbling of governments worldwide. Ever increasing wars and pestilence. Global disasters. Religious uphevels and not to mention other signs in the heavens themselves, such as the passing of hevenly bodies. Satan is the ruler of this world, hence all of mankind's multitude of never ending problems and such. But his time is coming to end when God will inprison him in an abyss for all eternity. As well as his minions. Jesus will then rule the entire Earth with the 144,000 annointed, under his father's supervision. The entire Earth will be an unending paradise where all man and woman will live in total peace under one rulership. The rulership of God. Sounds beyond amazing I think. Fantasy? Perhaps we will find out sooner rather than later.

So, yes I firmly believe that we will all be judged on that day. In other words, Yes. I believe in religion.

[Pentangeli]

What do people here think about converting another person's religion as a condition for marriage?

[Pentangeli]

I believe that there is only one true God. And that he and only created the entire universe and everything in it. This one God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. He just is. Try fathoming that. He has one son, Jesus Christ who now resides in heaven with his father plus billions of heavenly guardians known as angels. We humankind are all imperfect and sinners in their eyes. We are this way because the first people, Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of eden. They were infact our earthly mother and father. But they screwed up bigtime due to Satan decieving them and therefore earning God's distrust. That's why we all get sick, grow old and die. The human condition this is known as sometimes.. Adam and Eve were two perfect human beings. Another somewhat difficult concept to grasp when you consider that there is no such thing as perfection in this world. .

I don't mean to insult your belief, and neither am I saying you're wrong, but i'm pretty sure Adam and Eve were not two people. They were Hebrew terms for the life (Eve) in mankind (Adam), and how human life is not controlled by God, that freewill exists, leaving us open to temptations and wrongdoings.

[Miss Vicky]

What do people here think about converting another person's religion as a condition for marriage?

I think it's crap. If you are that strict in your religion, then you need to find someone who is already of that faith to marry, not force your partner to change.

Plus it makes me question the strength of the faith of the person being converted.

Personally, if I was with someone and they told me 'I want to marry you, but first you have to do this..." I'd be out the door. No matter what "this" is. Take me as I am or don't take me at all.

[BlownCamaro]

But religion is a huge part in many people's upbringing and therefore is a key factor in the shaping of their beliefs of what is right and what is wrong. So I really don't see how you can separate one's religion from one's upbringing, unless that person converted as an adult, rather than being raised with a certain religion.



Like I said, I know many Atheists who are just as hateful as those Christians you mentioned. Religion does not play in to the asshole factor.

[Abbie Normal]

At first, I think if we got rid of religion the world would be a better place. Then reality kicks in and I realize we humans would find something else to fight over. It would be easier if we would just learn to accept people who differ from ourselves.

[Vong]

Through what I've observed, and I know this has been debated numerous times in the Politics forum, is that religion stays strong through the power of parenting. As a parent, you hold the educational will of what your child will become later in life. If you choose to raise your child as a Catholic (for example), you are creating a mindset that the child will accept as truth. The child is not born with a template for religious belief, unless for some reason you guys don't believe in a tabula rasa brain.

A child's mind is naive and gullible. Here's a thought experiment: I remember at once time at the age of 5 I believed monsters lived under my bed. I was so damned sure of it that I put all my toys around the edge of my bed in order to secure myself a wall to protect me. Imagine if that belief continued through the years, without my parents reassuring that there is no such thing as monsters that live under beds. I would have been one weird adolescent. But my parents did correct me into thinking there weren't monsters. It was through their reasoning that made me become a non-believer in bed monsters. Just because I thought they were real didn’t mean that they were.

Now if you were to replace the monster belief with a theist one, and instead of the parents removing it they are reinforcing it in the child’s life, you have a child continually believing in something they think is real.

This is why I’m a firm supporter of children’s rights from religion. Until they are at the age of making their own decisions, they are at the whim of their parents teaching. Just because their parents believe in a certain religion doesn’t give them the right to force it on their children. The children should be given a choice, but only later in life when they have the mental capacity to analyze and critique believing in something like religion.

[Smarmy Douche]

My favorite part of the Bible is Matthew 21:18-21 because of how big of an asshole Jesus is in it.

Jesus and the disciples are just walking along one morning, and they see a fig tree and Jesus goes up to it and sees that its out of season and not bearing fruit and Jesus kills it for having the gall to not bear fruit out of season just in case Jesus Fucking Christ happens to pass by.

And then he explains to the disciples that All This And More! can be had with the power of prayer. Guy's on a power-trip.

Not as exciting as Elijah cursing a bunch of kids to be eaten by bears (2 Kings 2:23-25), but it stands as my favorite out of Jesus's sheer passive-aggressiveness.

[BlownCamaro]

Just because their parents believe in a certain religion doesn’t give them the right to force it on their children. The children should be given a choice, but only later in life when they have the mental capacity to analyze and critique believing in something like religion.



Actually the parents do have a right to instill their religion to their children. Some parents do take this too far but most parents introduce their children into the church and most kids enjoy it and it turns into a healthy relationship between the child and God. Some kids turn away from the church when they get older and that is something they decide but as a parent it is your job to raise your child the way you think is correct and religion is a major part of that for many families.

Taking that away or suggesting a child be banned from church until they reach some random age that you suggest is old enough for them to decide is ridiculous. What age is the right age? 10? 14? 18? 25? I know plenty of adults who still are not capable of making a decision like that responsibly.

[Abbie Normal]

Through what I've observed, and I know this has been debated numerous times in the Politics forum, is that religion stays strong through the power of parenting. As a parent, you hold the educational will of what your child will become later in life. If you choose to raise your child as a Catholic (for example), you are creating a mindset that the child will accept as truth. The child is not born with a template for religious belief, unless for some reason you guys don't believe in a tabula rasa brain.

A child's mind is naive and gullible. Here's a thought experiment: I remember at once time at the age of 5 I believed monsters lived under my bed. I was so damned sure of it that I put all my toys around the edge of my bed in order to secure myself a wall to protect me. Imagine if that belief continued through the years, without my parents reassuring that there is no such thing as monsters that live under beds. I would have been one weird adolescent. But my parents did correct me into thinking there weren't monsters. It was through their reasoning that made me become a non-believer in bed monsters. Just because I thought they were real didn’t mean that they were.

Now if you were to replace the monster belief with a theist one, and instead of the parents removing it they are reinforcing it in the child’s life, you have a child continually believing in something they think is real.

This is why I’m a firm supporter of children’s rights from religion. Until they are at the age of making their own decisions, they are at the whim of their parents teaching. Just because their parents believe in a certain religion doesn’t give them the right to force it on their children. The children should be given a choice, but only later in life when they have the mental capacity to analyze and critique believing in something like religion.

Interesting. I have 2 questiona and 1 comment.

1. What about schools who teach evolution and science over religion?
2. Isn't religion culture and isn't learning religion from your parents the same as learning how and what to eat?

1. Monsters are real. Pixar taught us that.

[BlownCamaro]

My favorite part of the Bible is Matthew 21:18-21 because of how big of an asshole Jesus is in it.




You should probably find a topic more your understanding to join in and discuss because this one is obviously for the big kids and not you. You are just trying to get this thread closed which is something you have a habit of doing.

[Smarmy Douche]

You should probably find a topic more your understanding to join in and discuss because this one is obviously for the big kids and not you. You are just trying to get this thread closed which is something you have a habit of doing.

#1: That's nice.

#2: Example?

[BakeTheMooCow]

You should probably find a topic more your understanding to join in and discuss because this one is obviously for the big kids and not you. You are just trying to get this thread closed which is something you have a habit of doing.

Smarmy Douche is talking about religion. You're not. Stick to the topic or it WILL be closed.

[Pentangeli]

You should probably find a topic more your understanding to join in and discuss because this one is obviously for the big kids and not you. You are just trying to get this thread closed which is something you have a habit of doing.

My friend, its best to ignore such people. You're right, this person, for whatever reason, is clearly wanting to ruin the thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the person continues. My advise is to not take the bait.

[BlownCamaro]

Smarmy Douche is talking about religion. You're not. Stick to the topic or it WILL be closed.



So you come in and back a guy who is obviously trying to turn this into a flame war and not a discussion and yet you have the nerve to threaten me? Good moderation there.

I am talking about religion in my posts and I am trying to keep this thread open and that is why I said what I said. This thread could go on for a long time and has potential for some great conversation/debate. It is good to know that you allow his kind of postings though without warning.

[Darth Kenshin]

What do people here think about converting another person's religion as a condition for marriage?

I understand the practicality of wanting to marry someone of similar beliefs. If you're extremely firm in your beliefs, it shapes everything you do, so it would make marriage much easier to marry someone who will support your beliefs (especially since many religions even dictate roles within marriage). However, it's probably best to marry someone who already shares your beliefs, as Miss Vicky said. But if you're so convinced of your beliefs, you shouldn't really find yourself in a position of "convert and marry me" because the topic should have been brought up long before you're considering marriage.

[BakeTheMooCow]

So you come in and back a guy who is obviously trying to turn this into a flame war and not a discussion and yet you have the nerve to threaten me? Good moderation there.

I am talking about religion in my posts and I am trying to keep this thread open and that is why I said what I said. This thread could go on for a long time and has potential for some great conversation/debate. It is good to know that you allow his kind of postings though without warning.

It's his opinion and whether you or I agree or disagree with it is not the point. The mods are not here to moralize.

Respect each other and stay on topic.

[Beard_of_Meat]

Through what I've observed, and I know this has been debated numerous times in the Politics forum, is that religion stays strong through the power of parenting. As a parent, you hold the educational will of what your child will become later in life. If you choose to raise your child as a Catholic (for example), you are creating a mindset that the child will accept as truth. The child is not born with a template for religious belief, unless for some reason you guys don't believe in a tabula rasa brain.

A child's mind is naive and gullible. Here's a thought experiment: I remember at once time at the age of 5 I believed monsters lived under my bed. I was so damned sure of it that I put all my toys around the edge of my bed in order to secure myself a wall to protect me. Imagine if that belief continued through the years, without my parents reassuring that there is no such thing as monsters that live under beds. I would have been one weird adolescent. But my parents did correct me into thinking there weren't monsters. It was through their reasoning that made me become a non-believer in bed monsters. Just because I thought they were real didn’t mean that they were.

Now if you were to replace the monster belief with a theist one, and instead of the parents removing it they are reinforcing it in the child’s life, you have a child continually believing in something they think is real.

This is why I’m a firm supporter of children’s rights from religion. Until they are at the age of making their own decisions, they are at the whim of their parents teaching. Just because their parents believe in a certain religion doesn’t give them the right to force it on their children. The children should be given a choice, but only later in life when they have the mental capacity to analyze and critique believing in something like religion.

Well I came to believe in Christ later in life and from what I understand in my reading of the Gospel and from what I have learned from sermons is that you can't force salvation on anyone..Sure you can have your child baptized as a baby but its not going to do them any good because they are not capable of being able to make the decision on their own...If you really read the Bible you would know that Jesus was against religion..He came to show people the true way to salvation by following His example..We as followers of Christ are to lead by that same example shown by Christ...We can only do the same for our children as Christ did for us and hope that one day they decide to accept Christ as their saviour..Anyone who forces "Christianity" on their children is probably going to lead their child or anyone else further away...Force feeding beliefs on anyone is wrong and I just hope that more people understand that they do more harm then anything

[Preston_79]

I'm not religious anymore. When I was younger I thought Buddhism was cool and looked into that for almost no other reason. This was like 4th grade to 9th grade. I went to a private school in Oregon called Dephi Academy and it was Scientology based with all these reading material based on the teaching of L. Ron Hubbard. My moms a Christian, as well as most of my family. Me though, I don't give it much thought these days. I just try to do basic things like being honest, trustworthy, and things like that. Religion has a lot to offer, and it's given me some frame work on how I should live.

Oddly enough I do pray. To whom or what I'm not sure. There are strong forces out there. I like to keep an open mind.

[Smarmy Douche]

Through what I've observed, and I know this has been debated numerous times in the Politics forum, is that religion stays strong through the power of parenting. As a parent, you hold the educational will of what your child will become later in life. If you choose to raise your child as a Catholic (for example), you are creating a mindset that the child will accept as truth. The child is not born with a template for religious belief, unless for some reason you guys don't believe in a tabula rasa brain.

A child's mind is naive and gullible. Here's a thought experiment: I remember at once time at the age of 5 I believed monsters lived under my bed. I was so damned sure of it that I put all my toys around the edge of my bed in order to secure myself a wall to protect me. Imagine if that belief continued through the years, without my parents reassuring that there is no such thing as monsters that live under beds. I would have been one weird adolescent. But my parents did correct me into thinking there weren't monsters. It was through their reasoning that made me become a non-believer in bed monsters. Just because I thought they were real didn’t mean that they were.

Now if you were to replace the monster belief with a theist one, and instead of the parents removing it they are reinforcing it in the child’s life, you have a child continually believing in something they think is real.

This is why I’m a firm supporter of children’s rights from religion. Until they are at the age of making their own decisions, they are at the whim of their parents teaching. Just because their parents believe in a certain religion doesn’t give them the right to force it on their children. The children should be given a choice, but only later in life when they have the mental capacity to analyze and critique believing in something like religion.

This is true, however, I think at this point, religion has its hands far deeper than just individual minds.

I watched a documentary a while back about dogs. Humanity’s largest and longest-standing eugenics project. And the doc goes into how through generations of breeding, there are now breeds of dogs, many house dogs such as Chihuahuas and pugs, and the like, who have been bred so that they are so bound to human companionship and support, that they are totally useless in the wild. They have no natural instincts to take care of themselves, it would never even cross their mind.

Religion has dug itself into society in a similar way. And you have to imagine how difficult your proposition would be if religion stuck around in any fashion. Because no religious parent would ever want to give their child the free choice to educate himself and look at religion objectively, because he/she’d see just how strange and unnatural it is and reject it.

It’s a good idea, but it probably wouldn’t work in practice.


So you come in and back a guy who is obviously trying to turn this into a flame war and not a discussion and yet you have the nerve to threaten me? Good moderation there.

I am talking about religion in my posts and I am trying to keep this thread open and that is why I said what I said. This thread could go on for a long time and has potential for some great conversation/debate. It is good to know that you allow his kind of postings though without warning.

I am trying to do no such thing as start a “flame war”. Instead of constructing a retort to explain or rationalize Christ’s behavior, you found it preferable to resort to insults. Who’s flaming who? It is more telling of your aversion or inability to discuss your holy book that the only person in this thread to insult a fellow schmoe is you. (Unless Pentangeli’s contrived “such people” thing counts.)

I have read every major holy book and the Bible particularly, cover to cover, numerous times. I have never found it to have more emotional or thematic maturity than fan fiction. If you can have a serious discussion about it without further insults, I’d be glad to. I can’t promise that I won’t continue to point out the stark bizarre and unpleasant qualities of the book, nor can I say that Jesus is any more holy to me than Billy Joel, but when you think about it, Joel has as a leg-up, because he’s got a New York State of Mind.

Actually, I’ve never killed anything to make a point or impress my friends, so I’d say I have the moral high ground over Christ, as well.

I am still curious as to what thread I have ever “tried to get closed”, considering that not only would I never want to do such a thing, but that I never have done so. PM me an example if you can find one.

[Pentangeli]

Personally it was not your view of the passage I objected to, it was more the calling Jesus an a-hole. You're welcome to your views of Christianity and Jesus. But there are ways to go about it, and using mild profanity in that context (describing Jesus) was likely to upset some people here and possibly start the kind of argument which would get the thread closed. This is why I advised others to ignore it. Which isn't to say all your views should be ignored, just the Jesus is an a-hole part.

[BlownCamaro]

Personally it was not your view of the passage I objected to, it was more the calling Jesus an a-hole. You're welcome to your views of Christianity and Jesus. But there are ways to go about it, and using mild profanity in that context (describing Jesus) was likely to upset some people here and possibly start the kind of argument which would get the thread closed. This is why I advised others to ignore it. Which isn't to say all your views should be ignored, just the Jesus is an a-hole part.



What he said.

[Tonkuro]

I was a Latter Day Saint, AKA Mormon.

Yep.

[MightyCelestial]

Yep. I'm creating a religion thread. Do you believe in God?

Personally,
I believe in God.
However, I do not believe in religion.

[Abbie Normal]

I was a Latter Day Saint, AKA Mormon.

Yep.

Time magazine did a nice piece on the Mormons and their message, their power and the prop 8 (i think) vote in CA.

Been to Salt Lake City. Saw the big Mormon church. Nice area.

[Homyrrh]

I look forward to engaging this thread at a later point. I'm out to Tranformers now, but I definitely appreciate its creation and its present course.

[Mr. Fred Krueger]

This is why I’m a firm supporter of children’s rights from religion. Until they are at the age of making their own decisions, they are at the whim of their parents teaching. Just because their parents believe in a certain religion doesn’t give them the right to force it on their children. The children should be given a choice, but only later in life when they have the mental capacity to analyze and critique believing in something like religion.


See, I really can't get behind that. I'm glad my parents kept me in church for a while and taught me about God. And you know what, despite everything they taught me, as an adult I still have many very different views on our religion.

And besides, I don't think it's forced. It's just a part of upbringing. Take my family for example. We were all raised as Christians. I maintain my Christianity, but it differs in many areas from my parents' view. My sister believes but in a more "spiritual" way. My oldest sister is a believer. And my older brother is an atheist. But none of us hold any ill will toward our parents for any differences of opinion or belief.

And I maintain that, regardless of someone's age, people believe based on faith. Not because mommy and daddy said so, but because of what they feel. I believed in God as a child, and maintain it as a 24 year old adult. Not because of fear, or because I'm easily duped or can't think critically. But because it's something I feel, a feeling that can't be described or duplicated.

What do people here think about converting another person's religion as a condition for marriage?

Not a fan, really. A person should convert because they feel its right, not because husband or wifey are of a certain faith.

[Darth Kenshin]

Nevermind... didn't realize Pentangeli already said what I said in my initial post

[Mr. Fred Krueger]

Hell is the most illogical teaching I've ever heard. Why would a relatively short lifetime of sin (70-80 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things) lead to an ETERNITY of suffering? I could never subscribe to a religion that taught there was a Hell. Hell just doesn't make sense (at least, if you believe in an omnipotent, infallible God), but to each his own. All we can do is live a good life, as you said. Do what is right, speak to others who are curious about religion, but never force it on others and, most importantly, never judge others.

Here's my take:

God is omnipotent and infallible. He created man, whom he gave free will (which is in itself is a hard concept to grasp--God gives us free will...but he all ready knows what paths we will choose ;) ). In that free will, man can commit many atrocities.

For me, Hell has to exist for those who are wicked in Gods eyes. What makes up those wicked? I couldn't say, and I wouldn't dare presume to say (although I think we can all agree, if there is a Hell...Hitler and his ilk are bound to find their way there ;) ). I think the better question, though, is what is Hell?

People often describe Hell as this place of fire and brimstone and pain. Even Christ used this analogy (which isn't unlike him, the Man did speak in parables). But I personally think the Hell is eternity without God. And that's about the worst pain I can imagine. Not fire, but rather being without my Creator.

[Darth Kenshin]

Here's my take:

God is omnipotent and infallible. He created man, whom he gave free will (which is in itself is a hard concept to grasp--God gives us free will...but he all ready knows what paths we will choose ;) ). In that free will, man can commit many atrocities.

For me, Hell has to exist for those who are wicked in Gods eyes. What makes up those wicked? I couldn't say, and I wouldn't dare presume to say (although I think we can all agree, if there is a Hell...Hitler and his ilk are bound to find their way there ;) ). I think the better question, though, is what is Hell?

People often describe Hell as this place of fire and brimstone and pain. Even Christ used this analogy (which isn't unlike him, the Man did speak in parables). But I personally think the Hell is eternity without God. And that's about the worst pain I can imagine. Not fire, but rather being without my Creator.

Yeah I should've specified. I was referring to Hell being a place of eternal pain and torment when I said I didn't understand it. In that regard, the punishment (eternal burning or whatever) would never fit the crime. But I agree with you that there has to be some form of punishment for whomever God deems wicked.

[Darth Kenshin]

I believe that there is only one true God. And that he and only created the entire universe and everything in it. This one God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end. He just is. Try fathoming that. He has one son, Jesus Christ who now resides in heaven with his father plus billions of heavenly guardians known as angels. We humankind are all imperfect and sinners in their eyes. We are this way because the first people, Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of eden. They were infact our earthly mother and father. But they screwed up bigtime due to Satan decieving them and therefore earning God's distrust. That's why we all get sick, grow old and die. The human condition this is known as sometimes.. Adam and Eve were two perfect human beings. Another somewhat difficult concept to grasp when you consider that there is no such thing as perfection in this world.

People make light of the day known as armageddon. But it is foretold in the bible that this day is infact real. And that we are spiraling ever closer to this inevitable climax. The bible also tells of things that have come to pass and will come to pass, such as the crumbling of governments worldwide. Ever increasing wars and pestilence. Global disasters. Religious uphevels and not to mention other signs in the heavens themselves, such as the passing of hevenly bodies. Satan is the ruler of this world, hence all of mankind's multitude of never ending problems and such. But his time is coming to end when God will inprison him in an abyss for all eternity. As well as his minions. Jesus will then rule the entire Earth with the 144,000 annointed, under his father's supervision. The entire Earth will be an unending paradise where all man and woman will live in total peace under one rulership. The rulership of God. Sounds beyond amazing I think. Fantasy? Perhaps we will find out sooner rather than later.

So, yes I firmly believe that we will all be judged on that day. In other words, Yes. I believe in religion.

Gotta ask... Born Again, Jehovah's Witness, or something very similar?

[Tonkuro]

Time magazine did a nice piece on the Mormons and their message, their power and the prop 8 (i think) vote in CA.

Been to Salt Lake City. Saw the big Mormon church. Nice area.

LOL, oh, those silly Mormons and their prop 8 hullabaloo. I heard all about it from the few Mormon friends that still decide to speak to me.

I've actually never been to Utah, so that means I don't get to partake in the ultimate versions of green jello and rice krispie treats that the housewives make 24/7 up there. But yeah, the architecture of some of the temples is really quite something.

I hate getting those questions about Mormonism though. "So, is that South Park episode true?" I tell them yes just to fuck with them.

[Preston_79]

The language in here has really created such a welcoming environment for people to discuss their faith without being insulted.

Well done.

I'm glad everyone can share knowing their fellow Shmoes can be so respectful.

[KCJ506]

I have met an equally amount of hateful Atheists (used to be one and only hang with others like myself) as I have Christians or Muslims. IMO religion plays no part in how much of an asshole someone is, it is just in their genes or in their up bringing from what I can tell.

I say it's about 50-50 when it comes to intolerance on both sides. There's two kinds of religious people:

1) Actual religious people who try to live their life according to their faith. This does not mean they're actually able to but they strive for it.

2) Religious people who use it as a crutch and a "I'm better than you" type of message, to feel better about themselves while giving no mind to anybody else. They consider anyone who's non-religious evil and they hate gays.

#1 is great, #2 is bullshit and does not qualify as religious. And I think I can safely say that God (if you believe in one) would agree.

And there's two kinds of atheistic people:

1) Atheists who don't feel comfortable with an explanation for the things that science can't address, and are happy just living in the now and assuming that there is nothing else. They're comfortable with the fact that science can't explain everything, but they simply don't believe that a higher power is responsible for the unexplainable parts.

2) Atheists who were raised by the #2 type of religious people and were so sickened by it and how totally wrong it is that they swung to the exact opposite end of the spectrum and knee-jerk against anything religious. Ironically, this means that they still became exactly what they were running away from: an offensive, overly defensive closed minded ball of bitterness and self-doubt. They'll force their views down your throats just as much as hardcore Christians. They consider anyone who doesn't share their views to be retarded, crazy, weak-minded and "intellectually inferior" to them. These guys are no better than Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

I've got a problem with #2 from both groups, and no problem with #1 from either group.

So again 50-50.

[Shinigami]

I'm frustrated with this topic. Try as I might, I can't find any theoretical way to keep people from close mindedness and any predisposition that overrules reality. Whenever I assume, for whatever reason, that contemporary religion is responsible for shutting people away and giving them any sort of lifelong disposition well before they're educated enough to have lifelong dispositions... I meet an atheist who is a close minded ignoramus predisposed to bigotry and an ironic blind faith in science. I've met people who appear more than happy to adhere to science they don't understand just because it's science. That's not productive. Blindness is dangerous, no matter what it is displayed towards. It's a very strange thing to witness a man of unfaith displaying an extreme faith and loyalty to principles beyond his education simply because he was raised to. imo it's the same disappointing behavior.

Religion is not the cause of ignorance. It can promote ignorance, but I've never encountered an argument that convinced me its eradication would improve our world (besides, "religion" is a very broad and sloppy way of generalizing everybody of faith and spirituality). I do believe that a lot of organized religions need to progress much further than they have... I find it personally frustration that many of them are still held down in [I]some[I] antiquated goofiness, because there's so much wisdom in faith that's being overrun by pitch fork mobs shouting lunatic litanies.
Anyways, nobody has claimed otherwise in this thread. I just feel like saying it: a dedication to "fact" has led people to be just as ignorant and even uneducated as a dedication to any book or faith. We're a people who require some manner of security blanket in this vast expanse of the unknown. Smart people are smart people, and I've constantly failed at pegging anyone as a dolt just because they were religious or not, educated or not. In other words, I'm frustrated that reality refuses to let me simplify people. :D Argh

[BlownCamaro]

So again 50-50.



Very true. That was a problem I had with southern Baptists around here. Very hateful unless you are in their crowd. We found a very nice Methodist church, very relaxed and EVERYONE is very welcome. No need for expensive suits or any of that, everyone dresses very comfortably in shorts and t-shirts. Some people do dress up but most just want to enjoy church for what it is, God's word, not a fashion show.

We also have a black muslim group here in town that hates whitey and everything white. On the flip side I used to have several Muslim friends and they were great people. We only stopped being friends because we went to different schools, moved, etc.

Being an Atheist was pretty much pointless. I was probably in the hateful atheist group. Made fun of "idiots" who worshiped the invisible man upstairs and I was pissed and grumpy all the time. After my wife (just a friend at the time) convinced me to give it a shot, things changed and my life got better. I accepted God, got baptized and tried my best to be a better person. I am in no way an example of what a Christian should be but I am a much better person than what I was 5 years ago. I try to pray and become better daily though.

I am very scientific and there is much in the Bible that I do question but I do my research and try to find answers when I can. I listen to theories on interpreting the Bible in different ways and there is some great stuff out there that really answers those questions I had in my early Christian days. I still have hundreds more but it is all coming together the more I find out.

Do I believe the Earth is only 5000 years old and there were no dinosaurs? Nope not at all. I believe in evolution but I also believe it is God's plan. Not some random Big Bang.

The Southpark episode this clip came from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8asQkegV_wk really hits the nail on the head if you ask me.

The clip is not the point I am making, just a funny clip from the episode I am talking about.

[Abbie Normal]

LOL, oh, those silly Mormons and their prop 8 hullabaloo. I heard all about it from the few Mormon friends that still decide to speak to me.

I've actually never been to Utah, so that means I don't get to partake in the ultimate versions of green jello and rice krispie treats that the housewives make 24/7 up there. But yeah, the architecture of some of the temples is really quite something.

I hate getting those questions about Mormonism though. "So, is that South Park episode true?" I tell them yes just to fuck with them.

I remember when I was a kid watching Davey and Goliath. The Latter Day Saints sponsored that show.

[RicochetShaw]

I was raised in a non-religious home, but went to private Christian schools from kindergarten through the completion of high school. The school wasn't definitely more influential to me than my home, in regards to religion. They consisted of Southern Baptist and Pentacostal (Assemblies of God).... pretty much the most conservative sects of Christianity, as far as I know. Southern Baptists are the ones that don't allow dancing (we didn't have any dancing whatsoever at our prom), and Assemblies of God are the ones that have speaking in tongues. My middle school had a formal boycott on the Harry Potter series, as it was supposedly the word of the devil, and JK Rowling was a wife of Satan.

I'm very well versed in the Bible, and between the various memorization assignments I was given through school, I'd say I had a sizeable fraction of the text memorized at one point or another.

I don't exactly know what I would identify myself as these days. I can't remember the last time I went to church, but I still occasionally pray, though I think it's mostly out of habit.

I took a religious studies course in my last semester of university that focused on textual analysis of the Bible. Just about everything we attribute to Jesus quoting was actually written by the dude who wrote whatever Gospel it's in, and each Gospel has Jesus saying different things to cater to their particular audience. Also, the Gospels were written a good 70 years after Jesus died. This is just scratching the surface on the stuff that would challenge a believer's faith, and having become familiar with these sort of things, I would say that I definitely am not the believer I used to be, but I wouldn't cal myself quite non-religious. As I stated earlier, I'm not exactly sure of my stance at this point, but I haven't really done much thinking about lately, really. Maybe I should.

[RicochetShaw]

How is Jesus any different from Zeus?



For one, Jesus existed.

[FLAME_ON]

For one, Jesus existed.

And how do we know this???

[RicochetShaw]

And how do we know this???


Censuses? Witnesses? Books? Roman accounts?

Even if you don't think Jesus was divine, it's historical fact that the dude existed.

[Preston_79]

And how do we know this???

Because of all the paintings. He's the same dude with a beard in all of them.:D

[FLAME_ON]

Censuses? Witnesses? Books? Roman accounts?

Even if you don't think Jesus was divine, it's historical fact that the dude existed.

Let's not confuse fact with popular thought... a significant number of biblical scholars and historians believe he existed but there's still an argument being made to this day--by an equally significant number of scholars and historians.

[RicochetShaw]

Let's not confuse fact with popular thought... a significant number of biblical scholars and historians believe he existed but there's still an argument being made to this day.


True, I probably was a bit steadfast in using the word "fact", and maybe jumped the gun a little bit. But really, it's about as much of a fact as we can have regarding ancient history. There are arguments against it, but really, there are arguments against evolution, too. You could throw that same argument at any ancient figure, but if some one were to deny the existence of Hammurabi, because it's just very popular opinion that he existed, rather than fact (remains, DNA evidence, etc.), then I would think of him the same thing I would think of one who would deny the existent of the historical figure of Jesus - foolish.

Feel free to have some doubt over Jesus' existence, I guess, but I think it's as certain as certain can be given the fact that we're talking about an ancient figure. Zeus, on the other hand, definitely didn't exist (whereas it's extremely probable that Jesus did), and I would still hold that it's silly to compare the two figures.

[Pentangeli]

Just about everything we attribute to Jesus quoting was actually written by the dude who wrote whatever Gospel it's in, and each Gospel has Jesus saying different things to cater to their particular audience. Also, the Gospels were written a good 70 years after Jesus died. This is just scratching the surface on the stuff that would challenge a believer's faith.

Do people believe because they're told to, or because they truely agree with the teachings?

If the former is true -- a person follows teachings only because its believed to be the word of God, and not because they truely agree with the teachings -- surely it would be an act of fear, and would lead to attrition. There would be no honesty in their life, no true love, no true sorrow, just a series of actions out of fear. If there was no true devotion to the message, could they truely be considered a Christian.

If the latter is true -- a person agrees with the teachings -- would the authenticity of the Gospels be important. If Jesus was proven to never have existed, surely the message in the NT would remain the same from a philosophical perspective. And if the person was truely devoted to the message, surely they would remain so.

[FLAME_ON]

True, I probably was a bit steadfast in using the word "fact", and maybe jumped the gun a little bit. But really, it's about as much of a fact as we can have regarding ancient history. There are arguments against it, but really, there are arguments against evolution, too. You could throw that same argument at any ancient figure, but if some one were to deny the existence of Hammurabi, because it's just very popular opinion that he existed, rather than fact (remains, DNA evidence, etc.), then I would think of him the same thing I would think of one who would deny the existent of the historical figure of Jesus - foolish.

Feel free to have some doubt over Jesus' existence, I guess, but I think it's as certain as certain can be given the fact that we're talking about an ancient figure. Zeus, on the other hand, definitely didn't exist (whereas it's extremely probable that Jesus did), and I would still hold that it's silly to compare the two figures.

My reasoning behind comparing Jesus with Zeus was that these are two spiritual figures of predominate importance, in different time periods; both carried on by oral traditions and writings. However, I believe they differ through their level of believability... You have Zeus hanging out up in the clouds throwing lightning up people's asses or you have Jesus, who was a simple man doing extraordinary deeds--in the name of love and sacrifice--and killed by "the man".

My point is, if Jesus is a product of overactive imaginations (like Zeus), it's much harder to dismiss his life as it's much more plausible.

[Mr. Fred Krueger]

Also, the Gospels were written a good 70 years after Jesus died.

Well...between 40 and 50 years, anyway (which was standard while awaiting propetical events to occur, case in point the fall of the Temple). Christ died sometime between 30-33 AD. The book of Mark was written in 75 AD, followed shortly after by Matthew, Luke (who was an historian and also wrote the book of Acts). John is the youngest book, written around 90 AD.

[BankaiZaraki]

Oh boy. This thread will not end well. Here's my two cents. And please dont be a dick about it. I wholeheartedly believe in God and Jesus. I believe God sent Jesus to die for our sins and if we repent and do right by God then when we die we will be judged by God in occurdence with our sins.

[Jig Saw 123]

I don't understand Christians nor Islamic beliefs when it comes to their prophets. Of course its okay that Muhammad had a dream in a cave about an angel visiting him and told him he is to deliver the word of God to the polytheistic people who resented and hated Muhammad. I'm a little confused about the Jesus formation in people's minds. He like other spiritual symbols (Zeus, Osiris, etc.) were all born of virgin births, all healed the sick and resurrected the dead, but since Jesus claimed to be the son of God he had to be real his word had to be true.

I don't understand the facts that most monotheistic religions are trying to make. The Old Testament was written hundreds of years apart from the New Testament so it seems pretty simple to me that the writers of the newer testament could have easily gone back and written in that all the predictions within the older testament have come to past. I'm not trying to start an argument I'm just trying to get a better understand of why people believe in books that were written thousands of years ago by the same people who thought the Earth was flat and that the Sun routed around the Earth?

[FLAME_ON]

I don't understand Christians nor Islamic beliefs when it comes to their prophets. Of course its okay that Muhammad had a dream in a cave about an angel visiting him and told him he is to deliver the word of God to the polytheistic people who resented and hated Muhammad. I'm a little confused about the Jesus formation in people's minds. He like other spiritual symbols (Zeus, Osiris, etc.) were all born of virgin births, all healed the sick and resurrected the dead, but since Jesus claimed to be the son of God he had to be real his word had to be true.

I don't understand the facts that most monotheistic religions are trying to make. The Old Testament was written hundreds of years apart from the New Testament so it seems pretty simple to me that the writers of the newer testament could have easily gone back and written in that all the predictions within the older testament have come to past. I'm not trying to start an argument I'm just trying to get a better understand of why people believe in books that were written thousands of years ago by the same people who thought the Earth was flat and that the Sun routed around the Earth?

And no one ever questions if the bible is just a carefully crafted book that has had hundreds and thousands of years of tinkering done to it.

Now that I think about it, a person's "faith" really comes down to how well they trust human beings.

[countchocula]

It's not hard to make a prophecy. Anyone could predict that at some point, we'll kill ourselves and a bunch of bad people will do bad things. The people who wrote the Bible knew that if they made enough vague, carefully worded "predictions," it woud be easier to sell their "truths." Everything (and I mean everything) in the Bible can be ripped apart with logic and reason.

Boy, this thread sure won't end well!*











*That was a stab at sardonic humor.

[Jig Saw 123]

And no one ever questions if the bible is just a carefully crafted book that has had hundreds and thousands of years of tinkering done to it.

Now that I think about it, a person's "faith" really comes down to how well they trust human beings.

Yes, and obviously people connected to a religious following must have faith that the writers of these books were good folk with no problems whatsoever.

[Shinigami]

And no one ever questions if the bible is just a carefully crafted book that has had hundreds and thousands of years of tinkering done to it.


Maybe it's a fortune of my generation, but among the religious people I've personally met... most question the legitimacy of their books, faith, and even their god. Frequently.

[Jig Saw 123]

It's not hard to make a prophecy. Anyone could predict that at some point, we'll kill ourselves and a bunch of bad people will do bad things. The people who wrote the Bible knew that if they made enough vague, carefully worded "predictions," it woud be easier to sell their "truths." Everything (and I mean everything) in the Bible can be ripped apart with logic and reason.



Yes prophecies are like horoscopes. They don't come flat out and say the obvious they instead beat around the bush so the reader can imply the reading in any form they see fit.

[screamer581]

I guess I would classify myself as "agnostic". Although I am not a fan of labels.


I have no proof one way or another of there is a God or there isn't. If there is a "Heaven" or something like that, I believe I will go there when I die. I think I am a good person. If there isn't, ah well.

[FireCaptain4]

Maybe it's a fortune of my generation, but among the religious people I've personally met... most question the legitimacy of their books, faith, and even their god. Frequently.

Same here. In the world we live in today, we can't uncover the truth of our existence to 100% certainty-- through religion or science. Maybe one day we will (with advancing technologies and science -- which I'll hopefully be involved with creating -- I like to think it'll eventually be plausible to measure our existence). Until then, none can say with absolute certainty what the source of life is and why are universe is present.

[FireCaptain4]

I think this'll be interesting to bring up in this thread:

A brief glimpse on dark matter and universal expansion (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Dark-Energy-Will-Reshape-the-Universe-105231.shtml):

According to astronomical predictions, astronomers looking at the skies in the distant future will have the distinct impression that the Milky Way is the only galaxy in the Universe, as the force known as dark energy will completely erase the Big Bang's fading signal, and will push other collections of star systems very far away from each other. Thus, the Universe will reach such a mind-boggling size, that directly observing other galaxies will be next to impossible.

This will have severe repercussions on the science of astronomy in the years to come, simply because, lacking reference points, scientists will not be able to observe the motion of the galaxies, and the complex interactions that occur between these formations. Leftover radiation, which was generated when the Universe first popped into existence, will also be hidden, so basically future researchers will literally be left without any sort of bearings. The only thing they will be able to notice will be what's going on inside our own star system.

The predictions say that dark energy will soon accelerate regular matter to such speed, that it will be pushed apart faster than the speed of light, which means that it would be physically impossible for even the most scientifically-advanced observatory to see anything. “Nothing can move through space faster than the speed of light, but space can do whatever the hell it wants as far as we know,” Lawrence Krauss, a cosmologist at the Arizona State University, told at the annual American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) meeting, held in Chicago last week.

“When that happens, they carry objects with them, like a surfer on a wave. The light from those objects cannot reach us. So, eventually the universe will disappear before our eyes,” he told Irene Klotz of Discovery Channel, in a private interview, emphasizing the fact that portions of our Universe were already accelerating and moving out of sight even at that point.

Of course, by the time dark energy takes over, the Earth will be long since extinct, as the Sun will expand in about 5 billion years. But civilizations living elsewhere in the galaxy, or in any other similar star aggregate, could face the exact same problem. “It's perfectly reasonable to expect that there will be civilizations not that different than our own that could arise, but they will live in an empty, dark universe,” the scientist concluded.

These theories intrigue me and it brings up a point that scientific and philosophic minds can concur upon: everytully the world, galaxy, universe, life as we know it will come to an end. Whether Revelations unfold or our universe folds in on itself, eventually they're be know trace that we even existed. No art, no paintings, no mathematics, no movies, no literature... nothing. The only question is: Is there existence after death?

[bigred760]

I've become less and less religious since I graduated college. I still went to church, was even elected as a deacon before I moved. But for different reasons . . . what I would call "common sense," and just a growing dislike towards organized religion, I have lost my faith.

I'd probably call myself agnostic, if anything.

[adamjohnson]

I think this'll be interesting to bring up in this thread:

A brief glimpse on dark matter and universal expansion (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Dark-Energy-Will-Reshape-the-Universe-105231.shtml):



These theories intrigue me and it brings up a point that scientific and philosophic minds can concur upon: everytully the world, galaxy, universe, life as we know it will come to an end. Whether Revelations unfold or our universe folds in on itself, eventually they're be know trace that we even existed. No art, no paintings, no mathematics, no movies, no literature... nothing. The only question is: Is there existence after death?

As I said earlier, Energy cannot be made or unmade. Energy is merely displaced into something else.

[Tagia_Romero]

I find religion is one of the most fascinating things to study and to observe, on top of that, you can't doubt it is seductive.

In terms of my own beliefs though, I just believe in being a good and decent person because it not only makes me feel good, but also others.

[Darth Kenshin]

And no one ever questions if the bible is just a carefully crafted book that has had hundreds and thousands of years of tinkering done to it.

Now that I think about it, a person's "faith" really comes down to how well they trust human beings.

It's fairly certian that no major "tinkering" has been done, as older and older texts reveal consistency over the centuries. The question is whether or not it's divinely inspired.

However, I will say a VERY important part of bible interpretations is checking the legitimacy of the translation you read. For example, some religions believe Peter was greater than the other apostles, and they mistranslate a Greek verb to say that Cornelius "worshipped" him in Acts 10:25, when most other times that verb appears in Greek, it's rendered "do obeisance." Clearly, "obeisance" and "worship" have very different connotations.

[Darth Kenshin]

Do people believe because they're told to, or because they truely agree with the teachings?


That question is the reason why there are so many different types of people within each religion. I think, regardless of your beliefs about Christianity, we'd all agree that a person who lives by Christian principles is a good person (fruitage of the spirit being love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, self-control, faith, and mildness I believe).

But if people only believe because they're told to, they don't make the religion their own. They go through the motions and don't make any application in daily lives. They don't actually WANT to live by those principles, so it's easy for them to stray. Reading through Paul's letters, it's clear that was pretty common even in the 1st century, and we see it all the time today.

[Miss Vicky]

Like I said, I know many Atheists who are just as hateful as those Christians you mentioned. Religion does not play in to the asshole factor.

But you said yourself that a person's "upbringing" is a factor in whether or not he or she is an asshole.

I still don't see how you can separate a person's upbringing from a person's religion in respect to how they perceive right and wrong.

Please enlighten me.

[someguy]

Let's just not use anecdotal evidence, it's a waste of time and serves nothing to any real discussion.

[BlownCamaro]

But you said yourself that a person's "upbringing" is a factor in whether or not he or she is an asshole.

I still don't see how you can separate a person's upbringing from a person's religion in respect to how they perceive right and wrong.

Please enlighten me.



Because I have never been to a church that preaches on how to be a better asshole. I have probably been to a dozen or so separate churches in my life time and none of them preached assholism in anyway. I think some people, based on WHO they are take what they learn in church and turn it into a new way to be an asshole. I would bet money that the same person could never have stepped a foot in church, and guess what, you would still think they were a douche.

You asked me to enlighten you, well please enlighten me. Where is your proof that someone was not an asshole before going to church, that the church turned them into this horrible person.

Like I said and like KCJ506 said, it is pretty much a 50/50 deal and you have no proof that religion turns out more evil people than non religious sections of the population do. It is all just you speculating or stereotyping.

[Miss Vicky]

You asked me to enlighten you, well please enlighten me. Where is your proof that someone was not an asshole before going to church, that the church turned them into this horrible person.



Reread my posts. I never said that that going to church or being religious makes someone an asshole. I said some of the most hateful and intolerant people I've met are people who consider themselves devout Christians (which does not actually mean that they are truly devout) and that religion (not just Christianity) has been used as an excuse for people to do horrible things to each other throughout the ages. I never said that non-Christians are all loving, wonderful people or that all Christians are assholes. But I have met many people who use their "faith" as a reason to hate and condemn people who have a different point of view or lifestyle. And many of these such people will then teach these views to their children, telling them that "God says" this is right.

And I asked you twice how you can possibly separate one's religion from one's upbringing in relation to how they perceive what is right and wrong and have not received an answer. I'm not asking how you can separate a person's religion from their level of asshole-ness. I'm talking about its influence on perceptions. To me, religion (or lack thereof) is an enormous part of anybody's upbringing, whether the result is positive or negative. But clearly I'm not going to get anything more than "churches don't preach being an asshole" from you, so let's just drop this.

[Darth Kenshin]

Let's just not use anecdotal evidence, it's a waste of time and serves nothing to any real discussion.

maybe I don't know what "anecdotal evidence" means, but isn't everything in religion anecdotal by definition? I mean, it's not scientific...

[Vong]

Actually the parents do have a right to instill their religion to their children. Some parents do take this too far but most parents introduce their children into the church and most kids enjoy it and it turns into a healthy relationship between the child and God. Some kids turn away from the church when they get older and that is something they decide but as a parent it is your job to raise your child the way you think is correct and religion is a major part of that for many families.

Of course though, it’s the religion that advocates parents to teach their faith to them at a young age in order to secure future believers. How convenient for them. And it’s true that some kids turn away from faith, such as myself. But no one should have to leave something they initially did not condone in the first place.

Taking that away or suggesting a child be banned from church until they reach some random age that you suggest is old enough for them to decide is ridiculous. What age is the right age? 10? 14? 18? 25? I know plenty of adults who still are not capable of making a decision like that responsibly.

Technically the age of consent is 14 years of age. So if any age was in place, I would use that one. But this isn’t to say that children should be restricted from churches. Children can make their own choices in faith as a young child. But their parents should not be the ones pushing any one particular faith on them. Besides, aren’t the benefits through faith learned through self discovery? What joy can a person, even a child, get from a faith they are forced into?

Interesting. I have 2 questiona and 1 comment.

1. What about schools who teach evolution and science over religion?
2. Isn't religion culture and isn't learning religion from your parents the same as learning how and what to eat?

1. Monsters are real. Pixar taught us that.

Science is based on empirical facts. It would be like restricting children from learning math. Asking children to learn religion in school is like asking them to believe in the tooth fairy; what you can’t see or understand empirically borders on the fantastical that cannot be taught. Schools should be based on what is known through reason and fact.

When you place religion with culture you are lumping huge significances together that is never the same in one country/nation. Yes, religion is part of many cultures. However, cultures are not determined or guided by religion. At least not everywhere. If a culture requires its members to teach its kids their faith then it is just as wrong as a parent teaching a child their religion without culture.

And I don’t understand your link to learning religion and learning how to eat? How are they connected?

Well I came to believe in Christ later in life and from what I understand in my reading of the Gospel and from what I have learned from sermons is that you can't force salvation on anyone..Sure you can have your child baptized as a baby but its not going to do them any good because they are not capable of being able to make the decision on their own...If you really read the Bible you would know that Jesus was against religion..He came to show people the true way to salvation by following His example..We as followers of Christ are to lead by that same example shown by Christ...We can only do the same for our children as Christ did for us and hope that one day they decide to accept Christ as their saviour..Anyone who forces "Christianity" on their children is probably going to lead their child or anyone else further away...Force feeding beliefs on anyone is wrong and I just hope that more people understand that they do more harm then anything

If this were true I shouldn’t have been forced to go to church as a kid, as should no other child. This is a reasonable interpretation of the Bible, but somehow I doubt it’s a popular one. Otherwise my younger family members wouldn’t be going to church every Sunday.

And people who discover faith later in life I fully condone. My philosophy teacher in high school converted to Catholicism in his mid 30’s after discovering its benefits. This is all well and good, but children should be given the same kind of choice later in life. And sure they can easily leave their beliefs behind if they wanted to, but it’s supposition to think that. Just as it’s supposition to say how a child would turn out if they weren’t introduced to faith early in life compared to being raised in a particular religion.

That’s why I can never accept people argument’s (mostly theists) that their children have become better people as a result of their religious upbringing. How can you say that if there is nothing to compare it to? You can’t compare your religious kid to an atheist child…they are two different people.

It’s a good idea, but it probably wouldn’t work in practice.

I agree. As most of my ideas would never work feasibly in the real world, I’m resolved to this idea being totally impossible in a society heavily rooted in faith that we are now a part of (at least in North America).

See, I really can't get behind that. I'm glad my parents kept me in church for a while and taught me about God. And you know what, despite everything they taught me, as an adult I still have many very different views on our religion.

True, but wouldn’t you have wanted to have discovered your god yourself rather than it being told to you as if it were a bedtime story?

And besides, I don't think it's forced. It's just a part of upbringing. Take my family for example. We were all raised as Christians. I maintain my Christianity, but it differs in many areas from my parents' view. My sister believes but in a more "spiritual" way. My oldest sister is a believer. And my older brother is an atheist. But none of us hold any ill will toward our parents for any differences of opinion or belief.

Sure your views may be different from your other family members, but your overall faith in a supreme being remains the same (with the exception of your older brother). This is what I’m getting at. You were never given the choice of believing in your god or not. It was a part of your upbringing, which in my view is a “force” of parental might. It’s basically your parents teaching you their experiences and guiding you along the way they see fit. That’s why everyone’s upbringing is different, but for those parents guided by religion their methods in rearing their children are shared by other parents in their community and are based on a tradition that has lasted for hundreds of years.

And I maintain that, regardless of someone's age, people believe based on faith. Not because mommy and daddy said so, but because of what they feel. I believed in God as a child, and maintain it as a 24 year old adult. Not because of fear, or because I'm easily duped or can't think critically. But because it's something I feel, a feeling that can't be described or duplicated.

But this feeling that you believe in your god was given to you to begin with by your parents. You were raised to appreciate this feeling and know it to be right. Can you honestly tell me that if your parents did not raise you a Christian you would have felt and believed the same way now? No one biologically or mentally inherits a faith. It is given to you. If my parents taught me that the garden statue in our front lawn gives us all happiness and good fortune I would share the same feeling you have with your god; that it’s right to believe in him.

If you had discovered your faith at a later age and not given by your parents I would have accepted the majority of your argument. But from my position, you are the adult that I refer to that has been educated from birth to believe in a supreme being and was never given a choice.

[Homyrrh]

Vong, I'll neither quote your post nor respond in full until later because of the late time EDT; as such, I apologize for not dedicating an effort to providing links and such for any of the following I may cite.

I would just respectfully chime that I think you're approaching the conversation in a number of fallacious ways.

By definition, science is actually just a systematic "branch of knowledge", truly just a more tangible (and, of course, more legitimate) school of philosophy. It is not necessarily "empirical knowledge", but an inductive (read: not deductive, a la mathematics) pursuit of natural truth. Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection, for example, was only a good idea forged on observation and critical thinking; while it makes much sense, it can never, like any other philosophy, be actually tested (or at least until time travel comes about, etc.).

Also, regarding one of your initial, and seemingly foremost, points, the topic of raising a child in a godly household seems to be addressed distortedly. You mention that it's "convenient" for these religions (in full disclosure, I have an intimate knowledge of Evangelical Christianity, and generally of the Judeo-Christian faiths) to include doctrine that children be raised in accordance to some divinely-breathed ordinance, and obviously not in an endearing way. I am somewhat confused by the alternative you offer, that children--specifically younger children--not receive any religious persuasion whatsoever. What is inherently wrong about this suggestion, on an almost silly level, is that no toddler can be left at home for the hour(s) the parents may be gone. On a theological field, within the context of a certain and specific faith, a genuine, good-spirited Christian, for example, should bless his/her children with the fortune of eternal life; obviously, in saying this I mean that passing the "Good News" onto one's children, a parent is not simply obeying biblical doctrine, but doing his/her child the ultimate service of ensuring a life of eternal happiness through acceptance of Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, Son of God, and, most importantly, one true path to the Father.

Additionally, I do not think it can be said, let alone established, that "forcing" a child to attend regular religious services until a reasonable age (hopefully not past high school, at the most!) is a twisted, permanenet engraving of religion onto a child's mind for the rest of his life. In truth, and even fact, it would seem much more likely that once the window of opportunity for such a liberation as freedom from religious bonds (of chastity, for example, etc.), many and most have been compelled to turn from a faith or religion or system of beliefs. As a Christian, it is difficult to stomach some of the numbers I read, that the VAST majority of "true believers" (in some survey samples, as high as 70%) who go to college depart from their religious convictions over the course of their time at school.

Discovering God "on your own" is, on the fundamental level, only possible amid indigenous people groups. I suggest the seventh and final book of C.S. Lewis's 'The Chronicles of Narnia', 'The Last Battle' for an interesting theology regarding this, as well as the Gospel According to Matthew (especially the twenty-eighth and final chapter).

I was raised by two lapsed Sunday Catholics (i.e. -- Catholics for an hour a week....we know the deal), and by virtue of circumstance, came to find a protestant, nondenominational Christian faith over the period of a couple years in my mid-teens. Since then, I've had the immensely pleasurable experience of doubting and questioning (not necessarily on the fundamental level of an existence of a higher being, but definitely on the level of His power and role, the Bible's truths, etc.), and without that, would not be secure in the faith that I am today. It is my ultimate and eternally unwavering conclusion that theologically and experientially, there is no "great truth" beyond a timeless, omniscient, omnipotent God who created what is and is to come, etc. OF course, as I've posted in other relevant posts, I'm also pursuing a BS and find that my pursuit of reason is in no way hindered by such a knowledge--rather, it's simply enlightening.

TBC...eye appointment in the morning. Please feel free to discuss these couple points and bring up anything else. I also really want to discuss objective morality later. This is good stuff. Also, if there's any question about where anything I say is referred to in scripture, I can lead you to where you can find it.

[mutant_gorilla]

I think Religion is gross. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus.

I believe a majority of the things most Christians believe, but that doesn't stop me from thinking it sounds stupid when it comes out of someone's mouth. Reading the bible is cool. But after going to the same church for 6 years, and then another church for another 2 years, I'm over the American non-denominational view of what ministry and church is supposed to be.

God and I are tight. But I definitely don't blame people for not believing in Him.

[FLAME_ON]

Discovering God "on your own" is, on the fundamental level, only possible amid indigenous people groups.


I just want to piggy back off this, not necessarily a response to you but something I want to throw out there.

One of my issues with divinity and religion is that it depends on books, communication, ect...
In my view of life, if there is divinity, I should be able to find it without someone telling me what it is or reading a book. AND it should be universal across the board. The fact that there's 100's of religions should automatically raise a red flag to anyone practicing a religion. If you, a Christian born in America, were instead born in a village in the heart of Africa, would you still be aware of Jesus? Or, say you were born in the heart of the Middle East, would you be a Christian or a Muslim?
The whole idea of some people knowing the "truth" and needing to spread the word to make it "true" is a damn game in my opinion. But some say that's the purpose of faith... and I say "faith" is a damn game also.
So if there is a god, he can send me to hell because this life is too short and too precious to be running around playing games on our existence.

Ugh. I might take a break from this thread... maybe. :rolleyes:

[BlownCamaro]

And I asked you twice how you can possibly separate one's religion from one's upbringing in relation to how they perceive what is right and wrong and have not received an answer.


Well most kids learn right from wrong more from their parents than church. The church can teach all they want on Sunday morning from 9-11am but the other 166 hours in the week, the child has to learn from their parents. It is not a matter of separating religion from their upbringing but understanding that their home upbringing has 99% more impact than the two hours of church would. People can go to church just for the image of being a family that goes to church to look good for the neighbors but once the door closes at home, maybe the husband is an abusive drunk, maybe they beat their kids, who knows what else goes on. That is what has the most impact on a child.

[jackson13]

Rather than come in here and get in a giant argument where I type and type and type, I'm just gonna post some pics I've found on the net over the years that sum up my exact thoughts on Religion and be gone.

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/Dathammer385/mot-chrisitianity.jpg

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6139/summingupthebible3.jpg


http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/7899/persecution.jpg




And the best one I've ever found:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/5624/thebestthing.jpg

[BlownCamaro]

Of course though, it’s the religion that advocates parents to teach their faith to them at a young age in order to secure future believers. How convenient for them. And it’s true that some kids turn away from faith, such as myself. But no one should have to leave something they initially did not condone in the first place.


Technically the age of consent is 14 years of age. So if any age was in place, I would use that one. But this isn’t to say that children should be restricted from churches. Children can make their own choices in faith as a young child. But their parents should not be the ones pushing any one particular faith on them. Besides, aren’t the benefits through faith learned through self discovery? What joy can a person, even a child, get from a faith they are forced into?


Well of course religion advocates teaching it to children. Why wouldn't it? That is kind of the whole point. Leading a good life, believing in God, and spreading the word. What you are saying is basically do not force your kids to do anything they do not feel they should do? Well they do not (in most cases) like eating vegetables, brushing their teeth, taking a bath, doing homework. These are things, as a parent, you have to teach your children to do and enjoy. Since they do not initially want to do it I should just not force them to until they reach an age where they consent to do such things? You get your faith, morals, and most of who you are as a human being from your parents and you want to shrug off something as important as religion from their life? If their parents are not teaching them to be good Christians, Muslims, Hindus, whatever, then they are not very religious in the first place and it probably will not affect the child anyway.

[Pentangeli]

I think it's crap. If you are that strict in your religion, then you need to find someone who is already of that faith to marry, not force your partner to change.

Plus it makes me question the strength of the faith of the person being converted.

Personally, if I was with someone and they told me 'I want to marry you, but first you have to do this..." I'd be out the door. No matter what "this" is. Take me as I am or don't take me at all.





I understand the practicality of wanting to marry someone of similar beliefs. If you're extremely firm in your beliefs, it shapes everything you do, so it would make marriage much easier to marry someone who will support your beliefs (especially since many religions even dictate roles within marriage). However, it's probably best to marry someone who already shares your beliefs, as Miss Vicky said. But if you're so convinced of your beliefs, you shouldn't really find yourself in a position of "convert and marry me" because the topic should have been brought up long before you're considering marriage.

I agree with you guys. There are rumours that Britney Spears is ready to convert to Judaism for her boyfriend. Some Victoria's Secret model, I think it was Alessandra Ambrosio, was in a situation where she was pregnant but it was unlikely the father would marry her because she wasn't Jewish. Tom Hanks became a Greek Orthodox Christian, so he could marry his wife. Its ridiculous.

[SpiralEye]

True, I probably was a bit steadfast in using the word "fact", and maybe jumped the gun a little bit. But really, it's about as much of a fact as we can have regarding ancient history. There are arguments against it, but really, there are arguments against evolution, too. You could throw that same argument at any ancient figure, but if some one were to deny the existence of Hammurabi, because it's just very popular opinion that he existed, rather than fact (remains, DNA evidence, etc.), then I would think of him the same thing I would think of one who would deny the existent of the historical figure of Jesus - foolish.

Feel free to have some doubt over Jesus' existence, I guess, but I think it's as certain as certain can be given the fact that we're talking about an ancient figure. Zeus, on the other hand, definitely didn't exist (whereas it's extremely probable that Jesus did), and I would still hold that it's silly to compare the two figures.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Hammurabi has a much better chance of having existed, simply because of evidence found (original engraved-stone tablets with Hammurabi's laws found in 1901). I think it's foolish for anyone to believe Jesus actually existed simply because he's "popular". There has never been one piece of evidence found to suggest so. All we have is a two-thousand year-old document written by people who though the earth was flat and the sun was magic.

So in actuality, the only thing separating Zeus from Jesus is that people alive today don't think Zeus was real.

Now obviously, you could jump into the Bush-Cheney frame of mind and start spouting "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!". But that's a cop-out mentality, IMO.

But seriously, we know that the Sumerians invented glue 5000 years ago (right around the birth of the universe, ironically!), but we've never found ONE thing EVER to suggest that the son of god himself was even real.

And never doubt for a minute that the bible is the word of man. It is entirely too jealous, hateful, condescending, and petty to be anything else.

And if the biblical god does exist? Then he's a passive-aggressive, child-starving, egotist with self-esteem issues.

In other words, he's a man. :)

[BlownCamaro]

And never doubt for a minute that the bible is the word of man. It is entirely too jealous, hateful, condescending, and petty to be anything else.




You have not been reading the Bible correctly then. The Bible is God's word. Doubt it all you like but that does not make you correct. What evidence would it take for you to believe Jesus was real? You have thousands of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but in other text as well. DNA evidence? What would you compare it to?

If you do not believe the Bible, well that is just the end of it. Your disbelief does not however change the facts that Jesus walked on Earth and did die for our sins.

[Pentangeli]

But seriously, we know that the Sumerians invented glue 5000 years ago

What are your thoughts on the findings at the Sibudu Cave?

[Vong]

By definition, science is actually just a systematic "branch of knowledge", truly just a more tangible (and, of course, more legitimate) school of philosophy. It is not necessarily "empirical knowledge", but an inductive (read: not deductive, a la mathematics) pursuit of natural truth. Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection, for example, was only a good idea forged on observation and critical thinking; while it makes much sense, it can never, like any other philosophy, be actually tested (or at least until time travel comes about, etc.).

I can’t prescribe to your definition of science being a school of philosophy. Science is built on tangible and hard proof. There are certain fields within science that can be considered less tangible that borders on scientific reasoning. But for the most part science is built on a posteriori knowledge, as in that it cannot be contradicted by equally empirical knowledge since such a thing is impossible. Philosophies are life objectives that people live accordingly; they define a person’s life through their attitudes and routines. You can apply science as a philosophy, but it is not definitively so.

Also, regarding one of your initial, and seemingly foremost, points, the topic of raising a child in a godly household seems to be addressed distortedly. You mention that it's "convenient" for these religions (in full disclosure, I have an intimate knowledge of Evangelical Christianity, and generally of the Judeo-Christian faiths) to include doctrine that children be raised in accordance to some divinely-breathed ordinance, and obviously not in an endearing way. I am somewhat confused by the alternative you offer, that children--specifically younger children--not receive any religious persuasion whatsoever. What is inherently wrong about this suggestion, on an almost silly level, is that no toddler can be left at home for the hour(s) the parents may be gone. On a theological field, within the context of a certain and specific faith, a genuine, good-spirited Christian, for example, should bless his/her children with the fortune of eternal life; obviously, in saying this I mean that passing the "Good News" onto one's children, a parent is not simply obeying biblical doctrine, but doing his/her child the ultimate service of ensuring a life of eternal happiness through acceptance of Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, Son of God, and, most importantly, one true path to the Father.

As a parent you are entitled (and even required) to ensure a foundation and creation of a safe future for your child. But nowhere in their upbringing should there be any sort of prerequisite to tell them what to think as a world view. To me that is just as sick as white collared racists teaching their kids that black people are evil. Did the parents have a right to teach their kids this? Because now there are kids who are continuing their parents racial ignorance that believe what they know is true.

When you teach a child that their god is the “good news” you are limiting them to a specific mindset and way of thinking that is hard to break out of. Because you are teaching the kids how the universe came to be and works through fantastical stories that are true only to a specific group of individuals. To me that’s brainwashing.

Additionally, I do not think it can be said, let alone established, that "forcing" a child to attend regular religious services until a reasonable age (hopefully not past high school, at the most!) is a twisted, permanenet engraving of religion onto a child's mind for the rest of his life. In truth, and even fact, it would seem much more likely that once the window of opportunity for such a liberation as freedom from religious bonds (of chastity, for example, etc.), many and most have been compelled to turn from a faith or religion or system of beliefs. As a Christian, it is difficult to stomach some of the numbers I read, that the VAST majority of "true believers" (in some survey samples, as high as 70%) who go to college depart from their religious convictions over the course of their time at school.

Until you post credible sources for what you might consider “fact”, I can’t accept any random numeric percentages that you mention. Because everyone knows 83% of statistics are made up.

I am a good example though of children who have broken from the shackles of faith, but others are (what I consider) less fortunate. The drive to leave a religion can be a difficult ontological endeavor. You are basically removing everything you were taught to be true from your head and reworking your mindset accordingly to something more tangible. For me, it took many years to accept that we, as human beings, are nothing more than animals living to spread our genetic seeds. It is so much easier and comforting to accept that some being magically snapped their fingers, created the universe and promises his children that they will live an eternal life in a magical land of happiness. It’s a major obstacle to overcome, because it’s asking you to accept a truth that is less joyful and more realistic than the fantastical alternative. (see Plato’s Allegory of the Cave for example).

Discovering God "on your own" is, on the fundamental level, only possible amid indigenous people groups. I suggest the seventh and final book of C.S. Lewis's 'The Chronicles of Narnia', 'The Last Battle' for an interesting theology regarding this, as well as the Gospel According to Matthew (especially the twenty-eighth and final chapter).

Fundamentals have nothing to do with this. Discovery through books and the internet is feasible in this day and age. How do you think I’m discovering Buddhism right now? Buddha didn’t appear to me in a vision telling me to join his philosophy.

Well of course religion advocates teaching it to children. Why wouldn't it? That is kind of the whole point. Leading a good life, believing in God, and spreading the word. What you are saying is basically do not force your kids to do anything they do not feel they should do? Well they do not (in most cases) like eating vegetables, brushing their teeth, taking a bath, doing homework. These are things, as a parent, you have to teach your children to do and enjoy. Since they do not initially want to do it I should just not force them to until they reach an age where they consent to do such things? You get your faith, morals, and most of who you are as a human being from your parents and you want to shrug off something as important as religion from their life? If their parents are not teaching them to be good Christians, Muslims, Hindus, whatever, then they are not very religious in the first place and it probably will not affect the child anyway.

I’m sorry, you cannot lump teaching children an understanding of the cosmos to teaching them how to brush their teeth. One is a mental prescription while the other is common oral hygiene. And, more importantly, one has life changing factors involved that determine how a person will think and act for the rest of their lives within a specific mental context. That sort of “teaching” never comes bundled with ensuring a healthy and attractive smile.

It is possible to teach children right and wrong without the guidance of religion. Human beings are genetically altruistic and empathetic to a certain extent. Our ancestors built a society on such altruism long before religion came into place. It is how our species has endured for so long in the wild among predators. And if you want a current example, look at our distant cousins, the apes, and how they function in a society. They live for the betterment of the whole and will defend each other should danger arise.

My point is that religion is merely an alternative to teaching right and wrong from merely learning it from your humanist parents. The only difference is you get fairy tales and stories that teach “what would Jesus do” in particular situations when guided by religion as a child.

[SpiralEye]

You have not been reading the Bible correctly then. The Bible is God's word. Doubt it all you like but that does not make you correct. What evidence would it take for you to believe Jesus was real? You have thousands of eye witness accounts, not just in the Bible but in other text as well. DNA evidence? What would you compare it to?

If you do not believe the Bible, well that is just the end of it. Your disbelief does not however change the facts that Jesus walked on Earth and did die for our sins.

You opinion is as valid as any, as long as you acknowledge that it is opinion only. The bible is god's word? Your opinion. Thousands of eyewitness accounts? Who were they and where are their accounts? Are you speaking of people who "find Jesus" in the most metaphorical sense possible? And as far as what evidence it would take to persuade me...start with ANY. Any at all will do for a start. But you will not be able to produce one piece. Because none exist.

And no, my lack of belief changes no facts, yet your blind beliefs create their own (thus perpetuating the cycle of belief creating belief). I'm sure you can at least appreciate the irony, this being a movie website and all.

And I'll also take a blind stab in the dark here, Camaro, and correct me if I'm wrong: Born-again? Just curious.

[RicochetShaw]

I couldn't disagree with you more. Hammurabi has a much better chance of having existed, simply because of evidence found (original engraved-stone tablets with Hammurabi's laws found in 1901). I think it's foolish for anyone to believe Jesus actually existed simply because he's "popular". There has never been one piece of evidence found to suggest so. All we have is a two-thousand year-old document written by people who though the earth was flat and the sun was magic.


You're saying the Bible is the only document that supports the existence of Jesus? That's incorrect. As you probably know, Jesus' execution was ordered by Pontius Pilate, a real Roman prefect for the Roman Empire. His order for the execution of Jesus was accounted by the Roman Senator and historian Cornelius Tacitus (who was non-Christian), as well as the historian Flavius Josephus, to name a few.

So no, I don't believe Jesus was real just because that's "Popular", I believe it because it's documented by historians.




So in actuality, the only thing separating Zeus from Jesus is that people alive today don't think Zeus was real.

With what I said above in mind, surely you no longer hold to this claim?


To be honest, I find this last quoted bit a tad irksome. I really don't appreciate that you stated something in such a factual manner ("in actuality") something so wrong. It's understandable, as it was probably borne from ignorance (I assume you were unaware of the confirmed secular Roman historical accounts of Jesus?), but please, try to avoid such ignorance in the future in a debate like this. Please to frame things that aren't so factual in a manner of opinion instead, thank you.

[FLAME_ON]

I recommend checking out the independent documentary "The God Who Wasn't There"... I don't want to claim this film is without criticism, but it does presents an interesting counter-argument for the existence of Jesus.

Here's a short clip to give you a taste:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du5wJWlHAVI&feature=related

[BlownCamaro]

Thousands of eyewitness accounts? Who were they and where are their accounts?


Ricochet pretty much answers this for you and saves me the time of typing up something similar.



You're saying the Bible is the only document that supports the existence of Jesus? That's incorrect. As you probably know, Jesus' execution was ordered by Pontius Pilate, a real Roman prefect for the Roman Empire. His order for the execution of Jesus was accounted by the Roman Senator and historian Cornelius Tacitus (who was non-Christian), as well as the historian Flavius Josephus, to name a few.

So no, I don't believe Jesus was real just because that's "Popular", I believe it because it's documented by historians.

[FLAME_ON]

Ricochet pretty much answers this for you and saves me the time of typing up something similar.

Okay, but have you guys actually gone and educated yourself with these accounts? Or do you just trust that there are accounts and therefore there are accounts?

[Mr. Scratch]

Used to be agnostic. Narrowly escaped death one drunken evening. Now I'm a Christian through and through.

[SpiralEye]

You're saying the Bible is the only document that supports the existence of Jesus? That's incorrect. As you probably know, Jesus' execution was ordered by Pontius Pilate, a real Roman prefect for the Roman Empire. His order for the execution of Jesus was accounted by the Roman Senator and historian Cornelius Tacitus (who was non-Christian), as well as the historian Flavius Josephus, to name a few.

So no, I don't believe Jesus was real just because that's "Popular", I believe it because it's documented by historians.






With what I said above in mind, surely you no longer hold to this claim?


To be honest, I find this last quoted bit a tad irksome. I really don't appreciate that you stated something in such a factual manner ("in actuality") something so wrong. It's understandable, as it was probably borne from ignorance (I assume you were unaware of the confirmed secular Roman historical accounts of Jesus?), but please, try to avoid such ignorance in the future in a debate like this. Please to frame things that aren't so factual in a manner of opinion instead, thank you.

What I find irksome is controversial ancient documents laid as law. The document by Josephus you refer to, "The Antiquities of the Jews", has long been disputed as authentic. As with many ancient texts, the oldest copies date back to circa 1100 A.D. More than than 1000 years after the supposed life of Christ.

The same goes for Tacitus, who gave his account of Jesus in his "Annals, vol. 15". This was a passing reference to Jesus, and was written circa 116 A.D., almost 70 years after Christ's purported death. In fact, all existing ancient texts concerning the life of Christ, biblical and non, were written no earlier than 50 years after the man's death.

And while I appreciate your citing of historical documents (be they factual or not), I stand as before. No verifiable evidence has been produced, and Zeus and Jesus still ride unicorns. Thanks for reading.

[Pentangeli]

And while I appreciate your citing of historical documents (be they factual or not), I stand as before. No verifiable evidence has been produced, and Zeus and Jesus still ride unicorns. Thanks for reading.

If we can put your facetiousness to one side for a moment, surely you can understand that there is no possibility of truely proving anyone's existence without forensic evidence. There is no conclusive evidence to prove the existence of many historical figures, eg Socrates, King Arthur etc.

All people know of Jesus -- whether he truely existed or not -- are his documented actions. It is the message, attributed to Jesus, that people follow. And this message does exist.

[SpiralEye]

I agree with you that several (and very different) messages attributed to Jesus exist today. Of course they do. But messages of hope, kindness, and love have existed as long as have messages themselves. And I also agree with many things which Christians (along with many other religions) value.

However, I don't agree that Jesus having a positive message means that he (or anyone else) is the son of god, or god himself, even if Jesus did exist.

And yes, I agree that hard evidence for many ancient historical figures is
slim. We don't even know for sure that Shakespeare existed. All we have are conclusions based on what evidence we procure from archeological finds, etc. But all early sources of Jesus, such as Josephitus, Tacitus, and the New Testament itself are seen as flimsy within many academic circles, and dismissed completely by many more.

I could be wrong though. How many zealots admit that? :)

[Jig Saw 123]

Used to be agnostic. Narrowly escaped death one drunken evening. Now I'm a Christian through and through.

So now you believe a force or a God protected you that night and it couldn't have been evidential reasons why you survived and possibly escaped completely unharmed?

[BadCoverVersion]

I would classify myself as agnostic.

If a Heaven exists then I feel comfortable in the way I've led my life thus far. I believe I will experience it.

It puzzles me how repentance and blind belief take precedence over the simple act of being a decent human being.

[BlownCamaro]

So now you believe a force or a God protected you that night and it couldn't have been evidential reasons why you survived and possibly escaped completely unharmed?


No, he meant God took his keys and hailed him a cab but when the cab driver pulled up, it smelled like rotten indian food so God just gave him a ride home.

[Pentangeli]

I agree with you that several (and very different) messages attributed to Jesus exist today. Of course they do. But messages of hope, kindness, and love have existed as long as have messages themselves. And I also agree with many things which Christians (along with many other religions) value.

However, I don't agree that Jesus having a positive message means that he (or anyone else) is the son of god, or god himself, even if Jesus did exist.

And yes, I agree that hard evidence for many ancient historical figures is
slim. We don't even know for sure that Shakespeare existed. All we have are conclusions based on what evidence we procure from archeological finds, etc. But all early sources of Jesus, such as Josephitus, Tacitus, and the New Testament itself are seen as flimsy within many academic circles, and dismissed completely by many more.

I could be wrong though. How many zealots admit that? :)

But did Josephitus and Tacitus exist? ;p

We agree on something though, that the values of Christianity existed long before Jesus. Values which are shared by many religions.

[countchocula]

Near-death experiences have a tendency to Christianize people, which is funny because thousands of people every day are NOT miraculously saved.

[BlownCamaro]

I would classify myself as agnostic.

If a Heaven exists then I feel comfortable in the way I've led my life thus far. I believe I will experience it.

It puzzles me how repentance and blind belief take precedence over the simple act of being a decent human being.



Well that is the whole point. Just being a good person does not get you in. Why would God let you in if you did not bother believing in him during your lifetime? The fact that you call it "blind belief" is pretty funny considering you still want a shot at Heaven, but do not want to do the little bit of work required to get there.

[BlownCamaro]

Near-death experiences have a tendency to Christianize people, which is funny because thousands of people every day are NOT miraculously saved.


If he saved everyone from death we would have a major overcrowing issue. If it is your time to go, it is your time to go.

[Pentangeli]

Well that is the whole point. Just being a good person does not get you in. Why would God let you in if you did not bother believing in him during your lifetime? The fact that you call it "blind belief" is pretty funny considering you still want a shot at Heaven, but do not want to do the little bit of work required to get there.

You've gone a little bit too far there, fella.

[BlownCamaro]

You've gone a little bit too far there, fella.

Naaa.

[Pentangeli]

Saying people wont get into Heaven, because they don't believe in your God, is out of line in most situations, but especially on what's meant to be a civil discussion where people of all beliefs are supposedly welcome. There's giving belief, and then there's intimidation, and I think your post fell into the latter category. Not saying you're a bad fella or anything, just that your post was a bit much.

[Jig Saw 123]

Well that is the whole point. Just being a good person does not get you in. Why would God let you in if you did not bother believing in him during your lifetime? The fact that you call it "blind belief" is pretty funny considering you still want a shot at Heaven, but do not want to do the little bit of work required to get there.

How screwed over would you feel if you died and you didn't go to a Heaven nor a Hell, but just went into blackness and stayed in a continuous never ending dream? Would you feel as if you'd just wasted your entire life believing and got nothing from it?

And since your Christian I don't think God would be petity enough to tell someone you can't come in here because you didn't believe in me yet your an organ donor, given thousands of dollars to charity and took care of and nurtured loving children, but I'm gonna allow this believer access who hasn't done anything his entire life except go to his dead end job and occasionally paid his taxes.

[Cenopath]

I'm an agnostic with athiest leanings. In my opinion, people rely on religion to compensate for their lack of personal responsibility.

[BlownCamaro]

Saying people wont get into Heaven, because they don't believe in your God, is out of line in most situations, but especially on what's meant to be a civil discussion where people of all beliefs are supposedly welcome. There's giving belief, and then there's intimidation, and I think your post fell into the latter category. Not saying you're a bad fella or anything, just that your post was a bit much.



Only repeating what is in the Good Book my friend, no intimidation. Calling it uncivil is kind of odd.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/2_heaven.htm

[BlownCamaro]

How screwed over would you feel if you died and you didn't go to a Heaven nor a Hell, but just went into blackness and stayed in a continuous never ending dream? Would you feel as if you'd just wasted your entire life believing and got nothing from it?

And since your Christian I don't think God would be petity enough to tell someone you can't come in here because you didn't believe in me yet your an organ donor, given thousands of dollars to charity and took care of and nurtured loving children, but I'm gonna allow this believer access who hasn't done anything his entire life except go to his dead end job and occasionally paid his taxes.

Again, as I said to Pentangeli, I did not make the rules, I am just following what is in the Bible.

[jeo4]

Shot in the dark: You know any people from church with the last name Hess? One of my good friends was New Apostolic and was in a big, extended family that included lots of elders and top echelon people in the national church. They were based in the St. Louis area too, so not too far from KC. They were big time assholes, her grandfather called her a whore and blamed her for getting raped, but I figured it was worth a shot.


Wow. That's horrid.

I don't know anyone from that church now, but I can't recall anyone named Hess.

I'm 100% sure this church is a cult. The "preacher" was more like a mob boss. He waited for people to see him at the pulpit instead of meeting them at the door. When I introduced myself (I was the deacons grandson), he put his hand on my shoulder and gave me the whole "if there's anything I can ever do for you" speech like he was Vito Corleone. Nothing even related to scripture was discussed. Instead, they brought up a lot of shit from their own books and they spent an inordinate time wagging their fingers at anything and everything in society. It creeped me out.

[Jig Saw 123]

Again, as I said to Pentangeli, I did not make the rules, I am just following what is in the Bible.

So you follow whatever the bible tells you? If it told you to murder your firstborn child if it isn't a boy would you do so? Or would you conclude that specific portion was written in another period of time when rules and laws weren't applied as they are today?

[BlownCamaro]

So you follow whatever the bible tells you? If it told you to murder your firstborn child if it isn't a boy would you do so? Or would you conclude that specific portion was written in another period of time when rules and laws weren't applied as they are today?


Not going to answer "what ifs".

[Jig Saw 123]

Not going to answer "what ifs".

Fair enough. How can you believe in a talking snake, a boat that hosted a stable environment for two of every animal on the planet and the splitting of an entire sea to allow escaped Jews safe passage into the middle of the desert?

[BlownCamaro]

Fair enough. How can you believe in a talking snake, a boat that hosted a stable environment for two of every animal on the planet and the splitting of an entire sea to allow escaped Jews safe passage into the middle of the desert?

Same reason I believe a Man was born to a virgin mother, that same Man lived 100% sin free, died for our sins and was resurrected after his death.

[FLAME_ON]

BlownCamaro has gone bye-bye, Egon. What've you got left?

[Jig Saw 123]

So kinda like Star Wars.

[BlownCamaro]

So kinda like Star Wars.


No, the Bible.

[Darth Kenshin]

This is turning into a raging Christian debate instead of a thread on Religion. Anyway, to answer an excellent general religious question:

How screwed over would you feel if you died and you didn't go to a Heaven nor a Hell, but just went into blackness and stayed in a continuous never ending dream? Would you feel as if you'd just wasted your entire life believing and got nothing from it?


That's really one of the fundamental questions about religion. Do we follow ONLY because we want the reward (everlasting life in paradise or heaven or whatever you believe in) or do we think it improves our life now? Personally, I wouldn't care. I have my beliefs, and it's helping me get through life right now. When a loved one dies, when I see problems in the world today, I like being able to try and make sense of it. When I pray, I feel better (I'm sure you would say it's all mental, but that's not the point... the point is, I feel better). My family lives by the same code and it certainly makes our family life much more stable and enjoyable. I don't see the harm in believing in God and living life that way.

[BlownCamaro]

This is turning into a raging Christian debate instead of a thread on Religion.



For the record, Im not raging or anything or even slightly upset. Just answering questions I am asked in the best way I can.

[Lotis]

So kinda like Star Wars.

In Jesus' geneology there's someone named Joda, which in Greek is spelled Ioda. I's are pronounced like Y thus the name is ... Yoda.

Look it up, it's in the gospel of Luke (3:26).

(a bit of humor, but true nonetheless) :D


"And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."
-Matthew 28:20

"The Force will be with you. Always."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi, "A New Hope"

[someguy]

maybe I don't know what "anecdotal evidence" means, but isn't everything in religion anecdotal by definition? I mean, it's not scientific...

Yes, religion is anecdotal and not scientific which is why many people are against creationism which treats the Bible as a scientific document. Of course it's impossible for the Bible to be a scientific document since it was written before science was even 'invented' (that was more around the Renaissance times I believe but it could be earlier than that I forget).

That wasn't even the point of what I was saying anyways which is that using anecdotal evidence to back up your argument doesn't help anything here. All we'll get is a back and forth between 'Well I know Christians and they're assholes, so there's lots of assholes in Christianity!' and 'Well I know Atheists and they're assholes, so there's lots of assholes in Atheism!' which really will just make the discussion endless and repetitive/boring. That's all.

[Cenopath]

Saying people wont get into Heaven, because they don't believe in your God, is out of line in most situations

Actually, it's very in line. If you don't believe in God, then it's pretty damn likely that you don't believe in Heaven (or Hell) as well.

[Darth Kenshin]

Yes, religion is anecdotal and not scientific which is why many people are against creationism which treats the Bible as a scientific document. Of course it's impossible for the Bible to be a scientific document since it was written before science was even 'invented' (that was more around the Renaissance times I believe but it could be earlier than that I forget).

That wasn't even the point of what I was saying anyways which is that using anecdotal evidence to back up your argument doesn't help anything here. All we'll get is a back and forth between 'Well I know Christians and they're assholes, so there's lots of assholes in Christianity!' and 'Well I know Atheists and they're assholes, so there's lots of assholes in Atheism!' which really will just make the discussion endless and repetitive/boring. That's all.

haha ok. I misunderstood what you were talking about. I thought you were saying not to use biblical accounts (anecdotal) in a religion forum, which wouldn't have made much sense.

[Badbird]

Near-death experiences have a tendency to Christianize people, which is funny because thousands of people every day are NOT miraculously saved.

Yeah. God must really hate the shit out of Africa.

[Homyrrh]

As the conversation, or at least part of it, drifts vaguely toward questioning God on the basis of "allowing evil to happen" (suffering, death, pain, bad things, etc.), I'd like to refine at least one side of the discussion by introducing the reality that is objective morality.

Ultimately, if there is no evil, there can be no good, as there is no metric by which to judge good and evil. Of course, as there is both good and evil, there must be a universal metric by which to measure the presence (and, less importantly, the degree) of such opposing sides of morality. As such, this must be explained with the presence of a Higher Being/Creator/God. Conversely, without God, there is no evil, and consequently no objective morality.

[someguy]

God drowned the world and turned people into salt, he probably enjoys watching this awful shit.

[Homyrrh]

I can’t prescribe to your definition of science being a school of philosophy. Science is built on tangible and hard proof. There are certain fields within science that can be considered less tangible that borders on scientific reasoning. But for the most part science is built on a posteriori knowledge, as in that it cannot be contradicted by equally empirical knowledge since such a thing is impossible. Philosophies are life objectives that people live accordingly; they define a person’s life through their attitudes and routines. You can apply science as a philosophy, but it is not definitively so.



As a parent you are entitled (and even required) to ensure a foundation and creation of a safe future for your child. But nowhere in their upbringing should there be any sort of prerequisite to tell them what to think as a world view. To me that is just as sick as white collared racists teaching their kids that black people are evil. Did the parents have a right to teach their kids this? Because now there are kids who are continuing their parents racial ignorance that believe what they know is true.

When you teach a child that their god is the “good news” you are limiting them to a specific mindset and way of thinking that is hard to break out of. Because you are teaching the kids how the universe came to be and works through fantastical stories that are true only to a specific group of individuals. To me that’s brainwashing.



Until you post credible sources for what you might consider “fact”, I can’t accept any random numeric percentages that you mention. Because everyone knows 83% of statistics are made up.

I am a good example though of children who have broken from the shackles of faith, but others are (what I consider) less fortunate. The drive to leave a religion can be a difficult ontological endeavor. You are basically removing everything you were taught to be true from your head and reworking your mindset accordingly to something more tangible. For me, it took many years to accept that we, as human beings, are nothing more than animals living to spread our genetic seeds. It is so much easier and comforting to accept that some being magically snapped their fingers, created the universe and promises his children that they will live an eternal life in a magical land of happiness. It’s a major obstacle to overcome, because it’s asking you to accept a truth that is less joyful and more realistic than the fantastical alternative. (see Plato’s Allegory of the Cave for example).



Fundamentals have nothing to do with this. Discovery through books and the internet is feasible in this day and age. How do you think I’m discovering Buddhism right now? Buddha didn’t appear to me in a vision telling me to join his philosophy.



I’m sorry, you cannot lump teaching children an understanding of the cosmos to teaching them how to brush their teeth. One is a mental prescription while the other is common oral hygiene. And, more importantly, one has life changing factors involved that determine how a person will think and act for the rest of their lives within a specific mental context. That sort of “teaching” never comes bundled with ensuring a healthy and attractive smile.

It is possible to teach children right and wrong without the guidance of religion. Human beings are genetically altruistic and empathetic to a certain extent. Our ancestors built a society on such altruism long before religion came into place. It is how our species has endured for so long in the wild among predators. And if you want a current example, look at our distant cousins, the apes, and how they function in a society. They live for the betterment of the whole and will defend each other should danger arise.

My point is that religion is merely an alternative to teaching right and wrong from merely learning it from your humanist parents. The only difference is you get fairy tales and stories that teach “what would Jesus do” in particular situations when guided by religion as a child.
Regarding our point about college, this report (http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Regnerus_Uecker.pdf)is the most credible I've found. Interestingly, it supports the figure I've estimated within a zero degree of error, but concretely suggested that Christians lose faith at an even higher rate if they do not attend an institution of higher learning. Either way, given the astronomical percentages cited in the study, it serves toward proving the point that an individual's faith and religious beliefs are in no way bound to his/her upbringing.

EDIT: Ah, yes! Here's a more (http://www.geocities.com/deeann_regnerus/LosingmyReligion.pdf)exhaustive, more technical expansion of the study by the same authors.

[FLAME_ON]

Regarding our point about college, this report (http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Regnerus_Uecker.pdf)is the most credible I've found. Interestingly, it supports the figure I've estimated within a zero degree of error, but concretely suggested that Christians lose faith at an even higher rate if they do not attend an institution of higher learning. Either way, given the astronomical percentages cited in the study, it serves toward proving the point that an individual's faith and religious beliefs are in no way bound to his/her upbringing.

Based on personal observation and opinion, I can see how the results of that report ring true. It states that the decline of religious beliefs happens passively within students already at an "elevated risk of such corrosion". However in my experience, the students who hold their beliefs hold on to them passively.
I've sat through numerous lectures (between philosophy, religious studies, and astrology classes) where professors have made some argumentative claims against divinity and students won't even flinch; as if they just blocked it out or it went over their head. And even in those classes where there is discussion, the majority of the class will sit around looking like they aren't aware of what's even going on <insert comment that they just weren't paying attention because they're college students>.
And moreover, when I've gotten in religious debates at parties (those are fun aren't they??) and the people I come into contact with will say they've never considered the alternatives (i.e. there is no god)... It's not even an option for them.
So in my experience, most college students don't even actively entertain the idea of challenging their beliefs. They have them and they're content.
I could also say that most these students also come from upper-middle class, nuclear families but that's a different topic.
Plus, college students are social animals, living in dorms/with roommates, worrying about grades or what they're doing on the weekend, so the chances of having alone time to ponder thoughts of existence are drastically cut. I mean--hell, I didn't come to my current state of absolute atheism until I was living alone in an apartment for a few months, thinking about all kinds of crazy shit.
There's my two cents...

[Pentangeli]

Actually, it's very in line. If you don't believe in God, then it's pretty damn likely that you don't believe in Heaven (or Hell) as well.

I hear what you're saying, but there are a few things you seemingly haven't considered. Many religious people and also non-religious believe in God, but they don't all believe in the Christian god. I value Jesus' teachings, but I don't believe in the Abrahamic God. There are also many agnostics who don't rule out the possibility of a higher power, and will also not rule out the possibility of an afterlife. Will they not make Heaven for not believing in the right God? nobody knows. I always think religious people go too far when they bang on about who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. There's enough anxiety without it.

[Pentangeli]

Yeah. God must really hate the shit out of Africa.

The hatred or indifference would be from some multi-national companies and the leaders of those piss poor African countries.


God drowned the world and turned people into salt, he probably enjoys watching this awful shit.

Maybe God is malevolent and cruel, I often wonder this. But then I remind myself that most of the atrocities in life are man made, that is if we have free will. I don't believe nature is puppeteered, I believe we have free will. But still, maybe you're right, maybe there is no challenge to be good, maybe its all a show to entertain a malevolent force.

There is cruelty and violence in this world, but there is also love. Why do we have the potential of having compassion for others, yet also the potential to cause pain.

The key for me is happiness. I have never called someone a hateful remark, and felt happy at the same time. I have never attacked anyone, and felt happy. But I have done good deeds for others, cared about others, and this fills my life with joy, if only for a moment. If God exists and is malevolent, surely the feelings would be reversed, and being evil would be the key to happiness.

[BadCoverVersion]

Well that is the whole point. Just being a good person does not get you in. Why would God let you in if you did not bother believing in him during your lifetime? The fact that you call it "blind belief" is pretty funny considering you still want a shot at Heaven, but do not want to do the little bit of work required to get there.

That's fine.

There are a lot of blind believers out there. People who live real shitty lives and trample on anyone along the way...but because they masquerade under the guise of being a Christian I guess they will be living it up in Heaven when they bite the big one, alongside George Bush, Speidi and all the rapists, murderers and pedophiles who take advantage of the old 'repent and accept Christ' clause. Hoooweee, what a party that's going to be !!!

I don't exactly want a shot at Heaven...but if I live a good life and I am ruled by morals and decency then I feel that is enough. If there is a God and he sends me to stoke the fiery coals because I doubted his existence and takes in Josef Fritzl because he got scared and cried out for forgiveness then more fool him...he's a pompous God and needs to consider revising his outmoded 'How to get into Heaven' guide.

Oh and can I ask what the work involves? I think we might have very different definitions of work.

[BlownCamaro]

Oh and can I ask what the work involves? I think we might have very different definitions of work.



Well I kind of meant that loosely. I was just speaking of accepting Christ as your Savior and believing in Him. Trying to be a good Christian and all. Not saying you have to be a perfect human being or anything like that. I just think some attempt might need to be made every now and then, and not something like going on a mission trip to build a church. That kind of thing is good but I mean little things in your daily life.

[BlownCamaro]

If there is a God and he sends me to stoke the fiery coals because I doubted his existence and takes in Josef Fritzl because he got scared and cried out for forgiveness then more fool him...he's a pompous God and needs to consider revising his outmoded 'How to get into Heaven' guide.



Also wanted to respond to this.

It is good to be a good person, no argument here. You are asking much from Him. You want Heaven and to spend eternity there but you do not want to believe in Him. It may sound like He is "pompous" but He just wants that one thing from you, one little thing. Over the time line of eternity, the 80 or so years you live (hopefully) believing in Him is not much considering how you will get to spend the rest of your existence in Heaven.

[Vong]

This forum is one step closer to everyone singing kumbaya...

[Homyrrh]

This forum is one step closer to everyone singing kumbaya...
Please explain such a constructive comment.

[Darth Kenshin]

I don't think people who turn to God after a near-death experience do it because they believe God intervened in their case and ignroes all the other atrocities in the world. I think it's more along the lines of people being forced to actually confront and think about death, and naturally they become more curious about what lies beyond this life. It happens a lot with elderly people as well who may not have actually had a "near death" experience. Once they are forced to confront their mortality, it's only natural to begin wondering about what happens after we die.

[Darth Kenshin]

Well I kind of meant that loosely. I was just speaking of accepting Christ as your Savior and believing in Him. Trying to be a good Christian and all. Not saying you have to be a perfect human being or anything like that. I just think some attempt might need to be made every now and then, and not something like going on a mission trip to build a church. That kind of thing is good but I mean little things in your daily life.

"work" and "faith" are very different things. James wrote that "faith without works is dead," so he's clearly distinguishing between them. Typically, "work" in the biblical context refers to being a good person and following Jesus' example (empathy for the poor, preaching to those who want to know more about God, putting God first in your life, etc.).

[BlownCamaro]

"work" and "faith" are very different things. James wrote that "faith without works is dead," so he's clearly distinguishing between them. Typically, "work" in the biblical context refers to being a good person and following Jesus' example (empathy for the poor, preaching to those who want to know more about God, putting God first in your life, etc.).


Very true. I am still a relatively new Christian so I still have much work to do in my life and part of that is better knowledge of the Bible and its verses. I know much about religion but I am not at the level of being able to know important verses to quote here without looking them up. Sometimes I might say things here that are taken differently than I meant them to be and that is something else I have to work on as well. So thanks for pointing that out and correcting me.

[Smiert Spionam]

I have many family/friends who are of various religions, so I mean no offense when I say this, but honestly can't understand how a sane, rational human being could see so much unjust human suffering throughout the world and still believe that there's this omnipotent, benevolent, all-powerful creator who claims to love all of us and has a divine plan for everyone...

C'mon... really? :rolleyes:

[BlownCamaro]

I have many family/friends who are of various religions, so I mean no offense when I say this, but honestly can't understand how a sane, rational human being could see so much unjust human suffering throughout the world and still believe that there's this omnipotent, benevolent, all-powerful creator who claims to love all of us and has a divine plan for everyone...

C'mon... really? :rolleyes:



So you want a God that controls everything and gives you no free will? Besides natural disasters, most misery is man made, not God made. Warlords in Africa causing massive starvation and murders, drunk drivers hitting and killing innocent bystanders, rape, many cancers and disease, and more. All man made problems.

God can not give us free will and then step in and correct our problems every time we screw up. Well actually He can but that would not be the point. He gave us free will and we misuse it all the time and this is why we have so much suffering and death. I know many deaths from sickness and other things are not man made but you can not grant everyone a perfect life until the age of 90 or so. We would have massive overcrowding and even more man made problems because of this.

[RicochetShaw]

So you want a God that controls everything and gives you no free will? Besides natural disasters, most misery is man made, not God made. Warlords in Africa causing massive starvation and murders, drunk drivers hitting and killing innocent bystanders, rape, many cancers and disease, and more. All man made problems.

God can not give us free will and then step in and correct our problems every time we screw up. Well actually He can but that would not be the point. He gave us free will and we misuse it all the time and this is why we have so much suffering and death. I know many deaths from sickness and other things are not man made but you can not grant everyone a perfect life until the age of 90 or so. We would have massive overcrowding and even more man made problems because of this.

Do you believe free will to be an essential tenet of Christendom?

[BlownCamaro]

Do you believe free will to be an essential tenet of Christendom?


Yes. I am not a religious scholar or anything but everything I have read and everything I believe would make this a true statement.

[SpiralEye]

So you want a God that controls everything and gives you no free will? Besides natural disasters, most misery is man made, not God made. Warlords in Africa causing massive starvation and murders, drunk drivers hitting and killing innocent bystanders, rape, many cancers and disease, and more. All man made problems.

God can not give us free will and then step in and correct our problems every time we screw up. Well actually He can but that would not be the point. He gave us free will and we misuse it all the time and this is why we have so much suffering and death. I know many deaths from sickness and other things are not man made but you can not grant everyone a perfect life until the age of 90 or so. We would have massive overcrowding and even more man made problems because of this.

There's just one small problem...

Free Will. Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us.

This makes no sense at all.

If God knows all things throughout time (as he must, if he is omniscient), then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on 10th July, 2030, then how can I do anything other than that?

God, however, being the Creator, had prior knowledge of your actions at the time of the Creation, billions of years ago. He set the universe in motion, knowing all that would happen throughout time.

Let's say that God knows, infallibly, that in exactly one thousand hours from the time you read this, you will hit your thumb with a hammer whilst putting up a shelf. Let's start at the beginning...

Fourteen billion years ago, God created the universe. At the instant of creation, God knew the precise details of every event during the entire history of the newly-created universe. He knew how the hydrogen would disperse, and eventually condense to form stars and galaxies. He knew which stars would go nova in order to create the elements that will form planets, and He knew which planets would form in orbits suitable to develop and sustain life. He knew how the moon would orbit the Earth, making tides and washing the beaches. He knew where and when the first self-replicating molecules would form, and when the first amphibians would step onto land. He knew about the rise and fall of the reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, flowering plants and all the other freak accidents that directed the genetic flow through the millions of generations of plants and animals - the meteor strikes, forest fires, plagues, floods and landslides. He knew exactly what would happen to every single one of your ancestors - who would be born, who would die, who would marry whom, and so on, until you appeared. He knew everything that would happen to you in your life - where you would go to school, your exam grades, what jobs you had, where you lived, why you decided to build a shelf, where you earned the money to buy the hammer, where you made marks on the wall to get the shelf nice and level. All these things He knew would come to be as he Created the universe, right up to the exact microsecond that the hammer hit your thumb. When He created it all, He did so sure in the knowledge that at a certain point in time, you would be swearing loudly and holding your thumb under the cold tap (as well as, of course, everything else happening in the universe at that time). God created the universe so that events would unfold in this exact manner. He could have made it so that you were never born, or so that humans never appeared. He could have made it so that every single thing happened differently, or everything was the same apart from your accident.

Either way, you have no free will in the matter. The universe was made in such a way that everything you do must necessarily happen. Assuming, of course, that an omniscient, infallible God is behind it all...

[Darth Kenshin]

Yes. I am not a religious scholar or anything but everything I have read and everything I believe would make this a true statement.

Yeah I think (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that every form of Christianity acknowledges the free will of mankind. However, there are influences. We have negative influences, of which there are many accounts in the bible (the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one, the Devil walks amongst us like a roaring lion seeking to devour, Satan was hurled down to the Earth knowing he has a short time, etc.). Similarly, I feel we can pray for strength in times of despair. However, neither positive or negative influences FORCE us to do anything. Ultimately, our actions will always be our decision.

[Smiert Spionam]

There's just one small problem...

Free Will. Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us.

This makes no sense at all.

If God knows all things throughout time (as he must, if he is omniscient), then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on 10th July, 2030, then how can I do anything other than that?

God, however, being the Creator, had prior knowledge of your actions at the time of the Creation, billions of years ago. He set the universe in motion, knowing all that would happen throughout time.

Let's say that God knows, infallibly, that in exactly one thousand hours from the time you read this, you will hit your thumb with a hammer whilst putting up a shelf. Let's start at the beginning...

Fourteen billion years ago, God created the universe. At the instant of creation, God knew the precise details of every event during the entire history of the newly-created universe. He knew how the hydrogen would disperse, and eventually condense to form stars and galaxies. He knew which stars would go nova in order to create the elements that will form planets, and He knew which planets would form in orbits suitable to develop and sustain life. He knew how the moon would orbit the Earth, making tides and washing the beaches. He knew where and when the first self-replicating molecules would form, and when the first amphibians would step onto land. He knew about the rise and fall of the reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, flowering plants and all the other freak accidents that directed the genetic flow through the millions of generations of plants and animals - the meteor strikes, forest fires, plagues, floods and landslides. He knew exactly what would happen to every single one of your ancestors - who would be born, who would die, who would marry whom, and so on, until you appeared. He knew everything that would happen to you in your life - where you would go to school, your exam grades, what jobs you had, where you lived, why you decided to build a shelf, where you earned the money to buy the hammer, where you made marks on the wall to get the shelf nice and level. All these things He knew would come to be as he Created the universe, right up to the exact microsecond that the hammer hit your thumb. When He created it all, He did so sure in the knowledge that at a certain point in time, you would be swearing loudly and holding your thumb under the cold tap (as well as, of course, everything else happening in the universe at that time). God created the universe so that events would unfold in this exact manner. He could have made it so that you were never born, or so that humans never appeared. He could have made it so that every single thing happened differently, or everything was the same apart from your accident.

Either way, you have no free will in the matter. The universe was made in such a way that everything you do must necessarily happen. Assuming, of course, that an omniscient, infallible God is behind it all...

I mulled over the idea of responding to Camaro, but I decided I didn't have the energy to spell it all out for him. Thanks for saving me half the work, Spiral, you're the shit...

Now, spinning off of what he said, assuming that God is an omnipotent being, that means that he creates people even though he knows that they will only know a life of suffering or that they will only cause suffering for others. No one who claims to love every human life would do this. And this is just ONE of the HUNDREDS of contradictions in popular religion.

[BlownCamaro]

There's just one small problem...


I still ponder this from time to time. The scientific part of the brain does anyway.

I found this on another website that explains it better than I could even begin to.


"How can we have free will if God has a plan for our lives and knows everything we'll do in advance?


Since God is omniscient, God has foreknowledge, meaning he knows what everyone will do in the future and what any individual would do in any given situation. This foreknowledge enables God to have a plan for everyone's life. For instance, if God wants a particular action to occur, he knows who would choose to do that action, and under what circumstances they would choose it; thus he is able to plan for it to happen. However, God's knowing what choices we will make is simply knowledge - it doesn't remove our free will, for we are still the ones making the choices.

This may be more understandable if we consider that we have a type of foreknowledge from our knowledge of history. For example, we know that the Americans won the Revolutionary War. If we went back in time before the Revolutionary War took place, our knowing the outcome wouldn't force anyone to do anything. Our knowing the Boston Tea Party would take place wouldn't mean that the colonists would be forced to throw the tea overboard, it would only mean that we'd know what the colonists would choose to do. It's the same with God: his knowing what we'll freely choose to do doesn't mean we're forced to make that choice. "


Does this offer any insight? I could do some more research if you would like me to. I do not mind because like I said, I think about these types of things quite a bit and the more I know and the better I understand, the more it helps me.

[BlownCamaro]

Now, spinning off of what he said, assuming that God is an omnipotent being, that means that he creates people even though he knows that they will only know a life of suffering or that they will only cause suffering for others. No one who claims to love every human life would do this. And this is just ONE of the HUNDREDS of contradictions in popular religion.



Again that is all free will. Everyone goes through some misery in life. That is life. That is sin in action. That is not a contradiction in anyway. You want a perfect world with no sickness and not death and no sadness but that is not what we have created with our free will. You can not blame God because WE screwed up so bad.

[Smiert Spionam]

Again that is all free will. Everyone goes through some misery in life. That is life. That is sin in action. That is not a contradiction in anyway. You want a perfect world with no sickness and not death and no sadness but that is not what we have created with our free will. You can not blame God because WE screwed up so bad.

Yes... yes I can, because following the same line of logic, he knew what would happen and he created us anyway and he continues to create people even though he knows that they will only suffer. If he is omnipotent and knows all and is infallible, then I can blame him for the awful job he's done...

[BlownCamaro]

Yes... yes I can, because following the same line of logic, he knew what would happen and he created us anyway and he continues to create people even though he knows that they will only suffer. If he is omnipotent and knows all and is infallible, then I can blame him for the awful job he's done...


Well you are blaming the wrong person (so to speak) then. Again, would you only want a perfect world where no one dies and everything is happy happy joy joy? Almost Demolition Man like in ideology?

To achieve that one of a few things has to happen. No free will for humans because we are a violent, war causing race and without some control we will do what we have been doing for thousands of years. Or maybe something like non-stop divine intervention? People being saved from murders and rapes every second that we exist so we still have free will but no punishment for our choices. By punishment, I know the person doing the crime is not always the one punished but that is the way it works out sometimes. I really can not think of another way to be a God and give a race I created free will. Without free will this would just be a really crappy game of The Sims or something.

What would you suggest?

[Mr. Scratch]

So now you believe a force or a God protected you that night and it couldn't have been evidential reasons why you survived and possibly escaped completely unharmed?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that after that night, things started to come into perspective for me. I realized that I needed to begin living for things other than my own personal satisfaction. Because if I were to have died that night, I would have left so much unfinished and I didn't want that.

Call it ignorant, call it corny, call if whatever you would like to. I felt the presence of something beautiful that night when I realized I wasn't dead and that I'd be alright. I'm not going to try and argue this because to argue it would be against the point, in my opinion. Trying to explain to someone what a religious experience is, is a complete waste of time because you can't understand it until you've had one.

[FLAME_ON]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that after that night, things started to come into perspective for me. I realized that I needed to begin living for things other than my own personal satisfaction. Because if I were to have died that night, I would have left so much unfinished and I didn't want that.

Call it ignorant, call it corny, call if whatever you would like to. I felt the presence of something beautiful that night when I realized I wasn't dead and that I'd be alright. I'm not going to try and argue this because to argue it would be against the point, in my opinion. Trying to explain to someone what a religious experience is, is a complete waste of time because you can't understand it until you've had one.

How were you able to determine if that presence was Buddha, Allah, or Jesus/Christian god?

[Natty]

Yes I'm religious.

I believe in the Lord God and Jesus Christ.

A question:

Are there any athiests here who haven't had negative experiences with religious people?

[FLAME_ON]

Yes I'm religious.

I believe in the Lord God and Jesus Christ.

A question:

Are there any athiests here who haven't had negative experiences with religious people?

I haven't... I just took a look around, took notice of all the religions--through out history--and came to the conclusion divinity is a product of man, nothing more.

[Darth Kenshin]

Yes... yes I can, because following the same line of logic, he knew what would happen and he created us anyway and he continues to create people even though he knows that they will only suffer. If he is omnipotent and knows all and is infallible, then I can blame him for the awful job he's done...

Free will is something that every version of Christianity interprets differently. It's way too complicated a topic to be discussed here.

But I will say that there is evidence in the Bible that God does NOT know everything we are going to do. God is omnipotent, and can directly control things to have certain outcomes (like Cyrus freeing the Israelites from the captivity of Babylon). However, he does not exercise that in every aspect of life. I guess the simplest explanation is that God COULD foresee everyone's future if He chose to direct us in a certain course, because he has that power. However, because he does not exercise that power on everyday matters, he doesn't actually know how every individual's fate will turn out. He allows us to choose that ourselves. I hope that makes sense... again, this is a topic that's a bit too complicated for these forums, hopefully that gives you some insight in to what many Christians believe.

[Jig Saw 123]

Yes I'm religious.

I believe in the Lord God and Jesus Christ.

A question:

Are there any athiests here who haven't had negative experiences with religious people?

Nope I grew up in a structured Christian home, but when I reached eighth grade I started reading a lot more especially books on cultures, history and religious origins and I began to notice similarities between Jesus and many prophets before him and how they all represented a pattern in my eyes. Than I started studying biology and evolution more during my freshmen year of college and I was convinced that God, especially monotheistic God, is not in existence in my mind because the books that are written about him seem to fabricated and have no basis of reality.

[countchocula]

Free will is just another detail that was thrown into the bible as a contingency defense mechanism. It's amazing how people will believe anything they read if enough people say that it's legit. Blown C. only believes that the bible is true because it says it is. That's how a Christian works. There has never been any evidence to support the ridiculous shit in the bible other than the bible itself.

You know how rumors get started in grade school? That's how religion happened. Unfortunately, there is no teacher among us to set us straight, so we still believe the rumors.

[Homyrrh]

Free will is just another detail that was thrown into the bible as a contingency defense mechanism. It's amazing how people will believe anything they read if enough people say that it's legit. Blown C. only believes that the bible is true because it says it is. That's how a Christian works. There has never been any evidence to support the ridiculous shit in the bible other than the bible itself.

You know how rumors get started in grade school? That's how religion happened. Unfortunately, there is no teacher among us to set us straight, so we still believe the rumors.
This is untrue. To clarify, you are saying there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can be cross-reference to any other historical source?

Also, 'Free Will' is the first real account in the Bible, namely that of the choice of Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. This is in Genesis, one of the five books of the Pentateuch penned by Moses thousands of years past, well before Jesus of Nazareth's birth and well before any conspiracies to corraborate the New Testament to historical accounts.

[Jig Saw 123]

This is untrue. To clarify, you are saying there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can be cross-reference to any other historical source?

Also, 'Free Will' is the first real account in the Bible, namely that of the choice of Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. This is in Genesis, one of the five books of the Pentateuch penned by Moses thousands of years past, well before Jesus of Nazareth's birth and well before any conspiracies to corraborate the New Testament to historical accounts.

Is there any history books that talk about the great flood that wiped out most of the world besides an ark? Is there a history book that describes the life of Moses and his journey in freeing the slaves of Egypt and leading them through a sea? I don't think so. So like countchocula stated the Bible plays off itself. There are books based on side characters within the bible such as certain Pharaohs, Emperors and Kings, but nothing about Moses's magical staff and Noah's grand ark.

[SpiralEye]

George always puts it best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[BakeTheMooCow]

Free will is just another detail that was thrown into the bible as a contingency defense mechanism.

Religion in general is full of that Cover Your Ass gobbledygook.

"So why can't I see God?"
"Because he's invisible!"

"What does he look like then?"
"Oh, your feeble human mind couldn't conceive such a thing.."

"Why doesn't he answer all my prayers?"
"Um, he works in mysterious ways?"

[someguy]

This is untrue. To clarify, you are saying there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can be cross-reference to any other historical source?

There are historical figures, places, etc. that can be cross checked. I assume that count was referring to aspects like Noah's Ark, the entirety of Exodus, etc.

[Lotis]

Religion in general is full of that Cover Your Ass gobbledygook.

"Why doesn't he answer all my prayers?"
"Um, he works in mysterious ways?"

Deity Survey

God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, S/He/It asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions:

1. How did you find out about your deity?
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__ Near Death Experience
__ Near Life Experience
__ National Public Radio
__ Tabloid
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Other (specify): _____________

2. Which model deity did you acquire?
__ Jehovah
__ Jesus
__ Krishna
__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost (Trinity Pak)
__ Zeus and entourage (Olympus Pak)
__ Odin and entourage (Valhalla Pak)
__ Allah
__ Satan
__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature
__ God 1.0a (Hairy Thunderer)
__ God 1.0b (Cosmic Muffin)
__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god.

3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?
__ Yes
__ No

If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply:
__ Not eternal
__ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos
__ Not omniscient
__ Not omnipotent
__ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to all creations)
__ Permits sex outside of marriage
__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage
__ Makes mistakes
__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people
__ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people
__ Looks after life other than that on Earth
__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched
__ Requires burnt offerings
__ Requires virgin sacrifices

4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? Please check all that apply:
__ Indoctrinated by parents
__ Needed a reason to live
__ Indoctrinated by society
__ Needed focus in whom to despise
__ Needed focus in whom to love
__ Imaginary friend grew up
__ Hate to think for myself
__ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church
__ Fear of death
__ Wanted to piss off parents
__ Wanted to please parents
__ Needed a day away from school or work
__ Desperate need for certainty
__ Like organ music
__ Need to feel morally superior
__ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool
__ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell
__ @#&% was falling out of the sky
__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it

5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply:
__ Baal
__ The Almighty Dollar
__ Left Wing Liberalism
__ The Radical Right
__ Amon Ra
__ Beelzebub
__ Bill Gates
__ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur
__ The Great Spirit
__ The Great Pumpkin
__ The Sun
__ The Moon
__ The Force
__ Heidi Klum
__ Elvis
__ A burning shrub
__ Psychiatry
__ Other: ________________

6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God? Please check all that apply:
__ Tarot
__ Lottery
__ Astrology
__ Television
__ Fortune cookies
__ Ann Landers
__ Psychic Friends Network
__ Dianetics
__ Palmistry
__ Playboy and/or Playgirl
__ Self-help books
__ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll
__ Biorhythms
__ Alcohol
__ Marijuana
__ Barack Obama
__ Tea Leaves
__ EST
__ Amway
__ Bing.com
__ Mantras
__ Pat Robertson
__ Al Sharpton
__ Crystals
__ Human sacrifice
__ Pyramids
__ Wandering around a desert
__ Insurance policies
__ Burning shrubbery
__ Barney T.B.P.D.
__ Barney Fife
__ Other:_____________________
__ None

7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer?
Circle one below:
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know.
e. What's Divine Intervention?

8. God also reputedly attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 your opinion of the handling of the following: (1 = unsatisfactory, 5 = excellent):

a. Disasters:
1 2 3 4 5 flood
1 2 3 4 5 famine
1 2 3 4 5 earthquake
1 2 3 4 5 war & holocausts
1 2 3 4 5 pestilence
1 2 3 4 5 plague
1 2 3 4 5 Spam
1 2 3 4 5 AOL

b. Miracles:
1 2 3 4 5 rescues
1 2 3 4 5 spontaneous remissions
1 2 3 4 5 stars hovering over tiny towns & previously unknown hamlets
1 2 3 4 5 crying statues
1 2 3 4 5 water changing to wine
1 2 3 4 5 walking on water
1 2 3 4 5 coincidence of any sort
1 2 3 4 5 getting any sex whatsoever

9. From time to time God reputedly makes available the names and addresses of Her/His followers and devotees to selected reputedly divine personages who provide quality services and perform intercessions in Her/His behalf. Are you interested in a compilation of listed offerings?

__ Yes, please deluge me with religious zealots for the benefit of my own mortal soul
__ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamoring for my money

10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services?
(Attach an additional sheet if necessary)

[Homyrrh]

There are historical figures, places, etc. that can be cross checked. I assume that count was referring to aspects like Noah's Ark, the entirety of Exodus, etc.
Oh, I misunderstood. Yeah, many temples and buildings and artifacts (the Ark of the Covenant, for example) actually have been excavated. Will Noah's Ark be found? Well, how long do a bunch of pieces of untreated wood last in the ground for milennia?

[BlownCamaro]

Free will is just another detail that was thrown into the bible as a contingency defense mechanism. It's amazing how people will believe anything they read if enough people say that it's legit. Blown C. only believes that the bible is true because it says it is. That's how a Christian works. There has never been any evidence to support the ridiculous shit in the bible other than the bible itself.

You know how rumors get started in grade school? That's how religion happened. Unfortunately, there is no teacher among us to set us straight, so we still believe the rumors.


That is pretty insulting to all Christians. So basically Christians or anyone else who is religious and believes in a God of some sort is now a loon?

There is plenty of evidence to back what is in the Bible. Maybe if you took time to research it instead of insulting the religion you might find a way to understand this.

Maybe you should reconsider how you post in this thread because you just insulted plenty of members here on joblo by suggesting what you did.

[God of War]

Gotta ask... Born Again, Jehovah's Witness, or something very similar?
Nope, I just read the Bible. And I learnt a bit :)

[Smarmy Douche]

The struggle of the agnostic baffles me.

The idea that so many people are not only content with, but actively aspire to live one life on this planet and then go ahead and dwell for eternity in some afterlife makes people at large seem incredibly unambitious and uninspired. It's a really strange desire, to wish to live one life and then be "rewarded" with eternity.

This is the main reason I am more an anti-theist that just an atheist is that this is the supposed reward. Be pious to this shockingly presumptuous space god and his son, and he'll reward you with eternity.

Who the fuck wants eternity? I don't want to go to "heaven". I don't want to live one life and then go to some dimension for ALL ETERNITY, that's punishment to me. There is so much in this world, so much that I will never be able to do everything I want, so much that I won't even come close to discovering, and I'll never get any of that because oh shit, I'm dead, eternity time.

It's not that I don't 'believe' in this God, it doesn't matter whether it exists or not (it doesn't), it's that I reject your God, I reject his Heaven. I don't want it. I'm not about to worship Shiva, but if the aftermath of this thing isn't some form of reincarnation, I will be very disapponted.


There is plenty of evidence to back what is in the Bible. Maybe if you took time to research it instead of insulting the religion you might find a way to understand this.

No, there really isn't. Maybe if you took time to research it instead of blindly following the religion you might find a way to understand this.

[BlownCamaro]

No, there really isn't. Maybe if you took time to research it instead of blindly following the religion you might find a way to understand this.

:rolleyes:

I already have. You can get smart ass all you want but that does not make you right. There is plenty of evidence out there. Your disbelief in the evidence does not make it disappear. It is obvious you have issues with religion but if you have nothing to add but "I'm right and you're wrong because I said so!" well then there is not much to talk about now is there because you are set in your ways, no matter how wrong they are (or how right they are in your opinion).

You must be one of those hateful atheists we discussed earlier ;)

[Smarmy Douche]

:rolleyes:

I already have. You can get smart ass all you want but that does not make you right. There is plenty of evidence out there. Your disbelief in the evidence does not make it disappear. It is obvious you have issues with religion but if you have nothing to add but "I'm right and you're wrong because I said so!" well then there is not much to talk about now is there because you are set in your ways, no matter how wrong they are (or how right they are in your opinion).

You must be one of those hateful atheists we discussed earlier ;)

Nice try.

The burden of proof is not on those dismissive of this fantasy, it is on the religious, through and through.

The burden of proof is not on those of logic and common sense to prove that the population of earth rose from the womb of one woman despite zero anthropological or archaeological evidence, that the followers of Moses were enslaved and escaped from Egypt despite zero anthropological or archaeological evidence, that the whole of the earth flooded and that one man and his sons built a monumental structure to house every species on the planet despite zero anthropological or archaeological evidence, etc, etc.

The burden of proof is not on the skeptic, no matter how much you want it to be.

If I go to the mountain and proclaim that God exists, that Jesus is his son, and that he is our savior, it is my responsibility to prove it, not the man who tells me to bugger off with that nonsense. The nice thing about all this that you can respond with any tapdancing avoidance of the facts you like, and yet what is fact, clear, crystal, is that there is zero physical evidence for the whole of all supernatural Christian mythology, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Be a man of faith. Be that. No one can take that from you. Be that with all the connotations and stipulations it comes with if it makes you happy and you think its right. But don't pretend that there is any evidence to support it. You only make a fool or yourself and waste everyone's time.

Also, to "hate" something, you'd have to be pretty emotionally invested in it, so again, nice try but nada a cigar to gander. I'm about as cold on this subject as anyone can be. I hate that I've spent/wasted time researching these books, but it was necessary, because at least I know what I'm talking about. I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb one.

[Badbird]

Are there any athiests here who haven't had negative experiences with religious people?

I can say that by and large, I have not had any problems with religious people in my life. In fact, I'm dating a Catholic girl. There has only really been one moment where I dealt with a Bible thumper who had a bit of a bad attitude. But I just brushed him off because it wasn't worth it (he started giving my a list of all the Christians who weren't true Christians).

My atheism has nothing to do with the religious people I've encountered in life (And, by the way, you misspelled "atheist"). I can truly narrow it down to this basic train of thought I had a long time ago: as a human being, my basic biological makeup - bones, skin, muscles, organs, nervous system, etc, - is essentially the same as my cat's. Sure, I'm bigger and my brain is more advanced (at least we think it is; cat's never started a war that killed millions, that I know of), I walk on two legs while he uses four. My cat doesn't worship a god. Why is that?

Because there isn't a god, there is just life. We're born; we live; we die. It's as simple as that. We are biological creatures just like everything else on this planet - and we are no better or worse. Well, actually humans can make a pretty good argument for "worse" sometimes.

The planet, the galaxy, the universe are far bigger than we can possibly imagine or even comprehend. For us to think we are anything more special that a biological hiccup that managed to crawl out of the goop is not only rather presumptive and arrogant... it's absurd.

[Darth Kenshin]

Nope, I just read the Bible. And I learnt a bit :)

smart dude

The idea that so many people are not only content with, but actively aspire to live one life on this planet and then go ahead and dwell for eternity in some afterlife makes people at large seem incredibly unambitious and uninspired. It's a really strange desire, to wish to live one life and then be "rewarded" with eternity.


Many forms of Christianity actually believe in an eternal Earthly paradise with a resurrection of the dead. And dude, PLEASE try not to condescend religious people.

[Homyrrh]

I can say that by and large, I have not had any problems with religious people in my life. In fact, I'm dating a Catholic girl. There has only really been one moment where I dealt with a Bible thumper who had a bit of a bad attitude. But I just brushed him off because it wasn't worth it (he started giving my a list of all the Christians who weren't true Christians).

My atheism has nothing to do with the religious people I've encountered in life (And, by the way, you misspelled "atheist"). I can truly narrow it down to this basic train of thought I had a long time ago: as a human being, my basic biological makeup - bones, skin, muscles, organs, nervous system, etc, - is essentially the same as my cat's. Sure, I'm bigger and my brain is more advanced (at least we think it is; cat's never started a war that killed millions, that I know of), I walk on two legs while he uses four. My cat doesn't worship a god. Why is that?

Because there isn't a god, there is just life. We're born; we live; we die. It's as simple as that. We are biological creatures just like everything else on this planet - and we are no better or worse. Well, actually humans can make a pretty good argument for "worse" sometimes.

The planet, the galaxy, the universe are far bigger than we can possibly imagine or even comprehend. For us to think we are anything more special that a biological hiccup that managed to crawl out of the goop is not only rather presumptive and arrogant... it's absurd.
I'll continue to worship God while you can continue to worship Paul Giamatti...;)

[Smarmy Douche]

Many forms of Christianity actually believe in an eternal Earthly paradise with a resurrection of the dead. And dude, PLEASE try not to condescend religious people.

http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation3.html

The idea of reincarnation has never been accepted by Christianity because it undermines its basic tenets. First, it compromises God’s sovereignty over creation, transforming him into a helpless spectator of the human tragedy. But since he is sovereign and omnipotent over creation, God can punish evil and will do it perfectly well at the end of history (see Matthew 25,31-46; Revelation 20,10-15). There is no need for the impersonal law of karma and for reincarnation to play this role.


Well said.

If the many forms of Christianity you're talking about are the many smaller, 'spiritual' churches dotted about, like Unity Church and the Christian Spiritualist Movement then that's totally not what I'm talking about. I've been in many of these churches, I've attended many Sunday services, they view Christianity and the Bible as what they are, moral fables. They're not unpleasant places, but they are like any other religious institution, followers of a theory about the unknown. And they're not what I was talking about in that post. Practically every large church dismisses reincarnation at best and deems it heretical at worst.

And that agitation again, I saw it before you edited your earlier post, is really unnecessary. Does the word 'seem' mean nothing in your quoted observation? I'm not an arbiter, I'm not judging people, I don't care to judge people, and I am in no position to do so. I am observing and judging their beliefs, which is totally fair game.

I can't tiptoe around beliefs that are asinine with a stick and prod them gently. Sorry. If I've stepped out of line at any point in this thread, the moderators haven't made me aware of it.

So, on with the show.

I'll continue to worship God while you can continue to worship Paul Giamatti...;)

He'll always be Pig Vomit to me.

[Darth Kenshin]

http://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation3.html



Well said.

If the many forms of Christianity you're talking about are the many smaller, 'spiritual' churches dotted about, like Unity Church and the Christian Spiritualist Movement then that's totally not what I'm talking about. I've been in many of these churches, I've attended many Sunday services, they view Christianity and the Bible as what they are, moral fables. They're not unpleasant places, but they are like any other religious institution, followers of a theory about the unknown. And they're not what I was talking about in that post. Practically every large church dismisses reincarnation at best and deems it heretical at worst.

And that agitation again, I saw it before you edited your earlier post, is really unnecessary. Does the word 'seem' mean nothing in your quoted observation? I'm not an arbiter, I'm not judging people, I don't care to judge people, and I am in no position to do so. I am observing and judging their beliefs, which is totally fair game.

I can't tiptoe around beliefs that are asinine with a stick and prod them gently. Sorry. If I've stepped out of line at any point in this thread, the moderators haven't made me aware of it.

So, on with the show.


1. Agitation again? Not sure what you mean. I just don't think this is a place to condescend, that's all. I didn't think I came off "agitated." And I didn't edit that last post.

2. I wasn't talking about reincarnation. I was talking about being on Earth after judgement. That was in response to you saying you wouldn't want eternity in heaven because there is a multitude of things you'd like to experience here. I'm pointing out other beliefs. I never said anything about Christians believing in reincarnation. Resurrection and Reincarnation are not the same thing.

Basically, I just want you to know what you're being critical of. Some things are part of all forms of Christianity (no Christian believes humans evolved from apes). If you believe that, cool, criticize that ideal. But don't attribute beliefs you find asinine to all Christians when that's not the case.

[Smarmy Douche]

1. Agitation again? Not sure what you mean. I just don't think this is a place to condescend, that's all. I didn't think I came off "agitated." And I didn't edit that last post.

2. I wasn't talking about reincarnation. I was talking about being on Earth after judgement. That was in response to you saying you wouldn't want eternity in heaven because there is a multitude of things you'd like to experience here. I'm pointing out other beliefs. I never said anything about Christians believing in reincarnation. Resurrection and Reincarnation are not the same thing.

Basically, I just want you to know what you're being critical of. Some things are part of all forms of Christianity (no Christian believes humans evolved from apes). If you believe that, cool, criticize that ideal. But don't attribute beliefs you find asinine to all Christians when that's not the case.

Nevermind... didn't realize Pentangeli already said what I said in my initial post

This is what I was referring to.

I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I understand now. I think I misconstrued because now I still don't quite get what that has to do with my post, because it still boils down being judged and sorted by a dictatorial creator, which is still nonsense and still something that grosses me out.

I don't think my posts are difficult to understand, it should be apparent what I'm being critical of from simply reading my posts. In order: I am being critical of theism, I am being critical of a holy book chock full of repulsive behavior and totally outrageous allegory (and the belief of some that said allegory is historical), and I am being critical of the idea of existence in eternity in any sustained conscious manner.

Nothing I have called out is attributed to any fringe Christian group. Not the Bible passages, and certainly not the belief in an eternal afterlife, so again I'm not seeing your point, other than to create a straw man of some imagined part of the conversation that just isn't there.

Also, two things, we didn't evolve from apes, apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor, and there are Christians who believe in evolution.

[Darth Kenshin]

This is what I was referring to.

I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

I understand now. I think I misconstrued because now I still don't quite get what that has to do with my post, because it still boils down being judged and sorted by a dictatorial creator, which is still nonsense and still something that grosses me out.

I don't think my posts are difficult to understand, it should be apparent what I'm being critical of from simply reading my posts. In order: I am being critical of theism, I am being critical of a holy book chock full of repulsive behavior and totally outrageous allegory (and the belief of some that said allegory is historical), and I am being critical of the idea of existence in eternity in any sustained conscious manner.

Nothing I have called out is attributed to any fringe Christian group. Not the Bible passages, and certainly not the belief in an eternal afterlife, so again I'm not seeing your point, other than to create a straw man of some imagined part of the conversation that just isn't there.

Also, two things, we didn't evolve from apes, apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor, and there are Christians who believe in evolution.

1. I don't remember exactly what I said in that post (that was like 8 posts ago and I'm too ADD to remember). If I insulted you, I apologize

2. Maybe I misunderstood your point when you said "There is so much in this world, so much that I will never be able to do everything I want, so much that I won't even come close to discovering, and I'll never get any of that because oh shit, I'm dead, eternity time." It didn't seem like, in that particular post, your issue was with being judged by God, but it was with the concept of going to heaven for all eternity, and the seemingly "strange" desire to be rewarded with in such a manner. I was pointing out that this eternity in heaven for all righteous people is not a universal belief. There are many religions out there that believe in a paradise Earth. I'm just pointing out other perspectives.

3. I never heard of a Christian who believes in interspecies evolution. Yes, there are Christians who believe in evolution to some degree (myself included) but I've never heard of someone who truly identifies himself as "Christian" yet he doesn't believe in the creation account in Genesis. I'm not talking about the people who believe in a higher power but don't associate themselves with any religion... I was talking about Christianity in particular.

[adamjohnson]

http://doctore.blog.is/users/b4/doctore/img/god-is-a-dick-images205.jpg

[BadCoverVersion]

Quakers are real cool folks.

If I had to choose a religion I would definitely be a Quaker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/31/quakers-gay-marriage

Friends believe that all people are created equal in the eyes of God. Since all people embody the same divine spark all people deserve equal treatment. Friends were some of the first to value women as important ministers and to campaign for women's rights; they became leaders in the anti-slavery movement, and were among the first to pioneer humane treatment for individuals with mental disorders, and for prisoners.

+

Traditionally, wearing plain clothes was an answer to a number of Friends' concerns. Expensive styles were used to show social inequality and make statements about wealth. Only a select few could afford expensive adornments, which could then be used to exacerbate differences between people based on class, where people in fancy clothing would not want to be seen socializing with others dressed tattily. This was inspired by the Quaker testimony to equality. In addition, the frequent buying of expensive new styles and discarding what had recently been bought, was considered wasteful and self-seeking, where Friends instead aimed to focus on simplicity, and the important things in life. Notably, Friends did not consider it right to judge people on their material possessions, but this could not be achieved in a society which placed an emphasis on keeping up to date with inconsequential but expensive new trends. At the time, this practice of plainness meant Friends were obviously identifiable.

+

Oxfam was originally founded in England in 1942 as the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief by a group of Quakers, social activists, and Oxford academics.

+

Eric Baker (22 September 1920 – July 1976) was one of the founders of the human rights group Amnesty International and the second general secretary of the organisation. He was also a founder of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

Baker was a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), and served as head of the Quaker Peace and Social Witness, an organisation of Quakers in Britain working to promote and practise the Quaker testimonies of peace, equality, simplicity and truth.

Big up the Quakers.

[enver]

spiritual

[darchangel]

...can I just go with the low-drama short answer and say 'atheist', and leave it at that?


*crosses fingers*

[Homyrrh]

Quakers are real cool folks.

If I had to choose a religion I would definitely be a Quaker.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/31/quakers-gay-marriage

Friends believe that all people are created equal in the eyes of God. Since all people embody the same divine spark all people deserve equal treatment. Friends were some of the first to value women as important ministers and to campaign for women's rights; they became leaders in the anti-slavery movement, and were among the first to pioneer humane treatment for individuals with mental disorders, and for prisoners.

+

Traditionally, wearing plain clothes was an answer to a number of Friends' concerns. Expensive styles were used to show social inequality and make statements about wealth. Only a select few could afford expensive adornments, which could then be used to exacerbate differences between people based on class, where people in fancy clothing would not want to be seen socializing with others dressed tattily. This was inspired by the Quaker testimony to equality. In addition, the frequent buying of expensive new styles and discarding what had recently been bought, was considered wasteful and self-seeking, where Friends instead aimed to focus on simplicity, and the important things in life. Notably, Friends did not consider it right to judge people on their material possessions, but this could not be achieved in a society which placed an emphasis on keeping up to date with inconsequential but expensive new trends. At the time, this practice of plainness meant Friends were obviously identifiable.

+

Oxfam was originally founded in England in 1942 as the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief by a group of Quakers, social activists, and Oxford academics.

+

Eric Baker (22 September 1920 – July 1976) was one of the founders of the human rights group Amnesty International and the second general secretary of the organisation. He was also a founder of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

Baker was a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), and served as head of the Quaker Peace and Social Witness, an organisation of Quakers in Britain working to promote and practise the Quaker testimonies of peace, equality, simplicity and truth.

Big up the Quakers.
Best part: free oatmeal

[mutant_gorilla]

I went to church all my life. So, at 19, i've been six months out of the sanctuary, and I see more God in the people the church wants me to avoid, than in the people thumping their bibles twice a week. I think the church is so far from what God is. Thus....I'll cut on the dotted line and take religion out of my life, and leave God. Who is pretty cool. And likes the music I like.

[Homyrrh]

So you denounce organized religion while embracing a omniscient, omnipotent, Creating God? How do you view Him?

[Inglorious]

Well theres an architect behind it all, there's gotta be... whether we'll ever have the answers to our questions regarding existence I have no idea.

[g1ng3rsnap9ed]

He'll always be Pig Vomit to me.
You shouldn't say that about God. :D

[g1ng3rsnap9ed]

Well theres an architect behind it all, there's gotta be... whether we'll ever have the answers to our questions regarding existence I have no idea.
We're all just as lost as the others. Whether we're Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Wiccan/Pagan, atheistic, agnostic, or satanic, they're all just shots in the dark.

[The Heart Collector]

I used to be rabidly anti-religion, but nowadays I don't really care and find religion to be 'aite.

[Darth Kenshin]

I think the church is so far from what God is. Thus....I'll cut on the dotted line and take religion out of my life, and leave God. Who is pretty cool. And likes the music I like.

It's really AMAZING how many people feel that way. Definitely says a lot about the state of organized religion nowadays.

[Homyrrh]

I used to be rabidly anti-religion, but nowadays I don't really care and find religion to be 'aite.
'Religion' or faith?

[Pentangeli]

There was an interesting documenatry a few days ago, from channel 4, on the subject of divorce in Jewish law, and how Orthodox-Jewish women are unable to divorce their husbands unless the husband invokes a Get:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/revelations/episode-guide/series-6/episode-1

And here's an article from the Jewish Chronicle:
http://www.thejc.com/articles/get-took-five-desperate-years-now-ill-be-shunned



A strictly Orthodox woman featured in a new television programme dealing with gittin (religious divorces) has revealed that in desperation she obtained a get from a non-Orthodox religious authority.

Miriam Saleh speaks for the first time about her five-year ordeal of trying to obtain a get from her husband in the Channel 4 documentary Revelations: Divorce – Jewish Styleo be screened on Sunday.

The programme is the first for many years to deal with the situation faced by the agunah — “a chained woman” whose husband will not agree to give her a religious divorce — both here and in Israel.

Speaking exclusively to the JC, Ms Saleh described why she took the decision to go a non-Orthodox authority in Britain — though she would not say which — and the consequences of her action.

“There will be peace in the Middle East before I get a [Orthodox] get,” said Ms Saleh, who obtained a civil divorce two years ago.

“I have obtained a non-Orthodox get out of sheer frustration and desperation after five years of waiting. But I must stress that I am still an Orthodox woman. I have always lived an Orthodox life, and it gives me strength.

“I have taken my own stance. It was not easy to do this and the authority to which I went was also not happy because I was an Orthodox woman — why was I going there?

“But it was a very interesting experience because they treated me with respect and dignity, which is the way it should be.”

Ms Saleh said she was well aware that she might be shunned by the Orthodox community. “There will be consequences. But can it be any worse than it is now? I know I’m going to be shunned, because I have spoken out, but I have waited five years and I have had enough. It’s not as though it’s not part of our religion — it’s there and I am entitled to it.”

The 38-year-old mother of two sons said she took part in the programme “because it is high time frum women spoke out instead of being frightened”. She was put in touch with the programme makers by the Agunah Campaign.

Ms Saleh has been to the London Beth Din; the batei din of the strictly Orthodox Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations; the Federation of Synagogues; and the Spanish and Portuguese authorities, as her ex-husband is Sephardi. She was scathing about the role played by rabbis.

“It’s not like I have been to just one Beth Din — I have been to four. The rabbis say ‘we feel for you’ and ‘we feel your pain’. I’m not interested in pain or feelings — I want a get.

“The Beth Din, dayanim and rabbis all have power. Why do they allow an Orthodox man to carry on about his business like this, and not give a get?”

She said that men were asked what they wanted and would give a get only if money changed hands.
“They (the rabbis) listen and listen. I’m sick of talking. I don’t want to speak or listen, I want a get. The rabbis will not face up to this issue.

“I have 25 rabbonim on my mobile and I’m sick of running after them. They never ring me back. I just feel there is so much happening in the world, and there’s nothing I can do about it because men have a complete hold, won’t let it go and the rabbis encourage it.”

There was one man she praised — her solicitor David Whiteman, “who was the only person who has stood by me throughout all of this”.

Ms Saleh is one of a number of women from Britain and Israel featured in the programme. Another is British-born and Israeli-based Susan Zinkin, who has been waiting 47 years for her get, and a second woman, also called Susan, who did not wait for her get before starting a new relationship and having a baby.

There are interviews with senior rabbis in Britain, including Dayan Yisroel Lichtenstein, head of the Federation of Synagogues’ Beth Din, and Manchester Beth Din’s Rabbi Yehuda Brodie. The London Beth Din declined to take part.

The programme also features the Israeli government department which deals with errant husbands, including an interview with Rabbi Osher Ehrentreu, son of Dayan Chanoch Ehrentreu, former head of the London Beth Din.
In Israel, the get forms part of state law. While husbands can be imprisoned for withholding it, they cannot be compelled to give one.

THE MAN WHO UNEARTHED HER STORY


John Edginton

Programme producer and director John Edginton has “previous” with the Jewish community. He made a series in 2004 on the Manchester Jewish community, focusing on the Manchester Beth Din and the everyday lives of people living under the tenets of Jewish law.

“We touched on virtually every aspect of Jewish life, including this one. We felt it was a complex area that deserved a separate programme. When the Channel 4 commissioning editor for religious programmes said he wanted to develop a new strand about religious issues, I thought it was time to raise the idea and he liked it,” said Mr Edginton, who is not Jewish.

“I knew there had been a programme about 12 to 15 years ago on the BBC’s Everyman strand but as far as I knew, nothing since. An awful lot has happened and changed on the issue of Jewish divorce, including the failed conference in Israel. I had the contacts from the Manchester programmes and that’s where we started off and found one case.”

Mr Edginton found the Israeli side of the issue “fascinating and a bit of a revelation”.

He said: “We found that the Israeli rabbinical courts are taking a much tougher line against husbands, but that’s because it is the law of the land and there is more pressure on them (husbands).

“Also, the secular Jew is as affected by the law as the Orthodox Jew. They all have to go to rabbinic court and that makes for a very volatile situation.

“But the law is still with the husband there. He still has the right to refuse.”


On the matter of divorce, Orthodox Judaism practices outside the legal boundaries of England. There's no way this can be allowed to continue. Hopefully Ms Saleh's courage will start the journey towards change.

[gorysnoopy]

...can I just go with the low-drama short answer and say 'atheist', and leave it at that?


*crosses fingers*




Same here.

[Darth Kenshin]

On the matter of divorce, Orthodox Judaism practices outside the legal boundaries of England. There's no way this can be allowed to continue. Hopefully Ms Saleh's courage will start the journey towards change.

I never knew that religious laws could supercede political laws. That's nuts.

[Criminal Rock]

Whatever happens when we die is going to happen regardless of what anyone believes or thinks they know. With that in mind, I find religion to be inconsequential and a complete waste of my time...

[Tagia_Romero]

All I believe in is being a decent person.

[Inglorious]

We're all just as lost as the others. Whether we're Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Wiccan/Pagan, atheistic, agnostic, or satanic, they're all just shots in the dark.

I actually dont believe in any of them. In my very humble opinion... religion makes a mockery of spirituality. I just dont have the answers, and I am not going to devote myself to any of those over finding spirituality via living life without those rules and restrictions and misguided obligations.

I dont knock anyone for going for any of them either, though.

[Natty]

I actually dont believe in any of them.

Well...think about it, you must go for one of those that g1nger listed.

:confused:

[Jon Lyrik]

Most people don't realize that implicit atheism is a default position for a lack of belief.

[Inglorious]

Well...think about it, you must go for one of those that g1nger listed.

:confused:

If anything I suppose you could call me agnostic... but I dont prefer to be.

[A.J. Hakari]

There's no term for exactly what I believe in; I just have my beliefs, and that's that.

I believe something created life, the universe, and everything. Whether the actual name is God, Allah, or Jeff, I don't know. I'm just pretty sure something made everything, and that's what I believe.

I believe Jesus existed, that he was a great humanitarian and did a lot of things to help his fellow man. Do I think he's the son of God? No, sorry. But I don't go around to people and try to sway them over to my side; I prefer to live and let live, thank you much, and people are free to practice whatever faith they want, so long as it doesn't harm anyone physically or mentally.

[jbar1026]

i tend to be very non religious! but i do have beleifs. mostly they are be a decent person and the after life will be good. no rules really, after all if you go on a killing spree then ask for forgiveness from god should he/she really just wipe the slight clean? i dont think so!

[RustyRazor]

Yes, I do.
And angels and evil and everything that goes along with it.
I mean, I believe in evolution but who put all of the ingredients together to get things started?

That's right.

[Hey Man]

I don't believe in God and feel that religion in general is moronic.

Let’s start with one fact - the original Christians were ALL Jews and Christianity was once considered a cult, which by the way they killed you for.

The Bible is the most important book of all time. But it's not science. The very notion of God is (so far) unprovable. So everything inside the Five Books of Moses and the New Testament is FAITH... not theory. The Bible was written by human beings. I don't buy the notion that God sat down to write a book for us. I'm sure with a single whim we would all "know" God's will. I don't believe he needed to tell "only one deserving prophet" his wishes, so that this prophet would "tell all the rest of us." What a load of crap. Again, the Bible has some good ideas: Don't kill. Don't steal. The rest is a beautiful fairy tale.

Remember, once upon a time we were Hominids: Austrolopithecus Africanus... later changed to Austrolopithecus Aferensis... we lived in caves... we hunted... we killed or were killed... all we tried to do was survive. As civilization and language was invented, we started thinking about other things. I doubt cavemen thought about Christ or any other supposed deity (obviously: Christ was yet to be).

My question is, is Heaven ONLY open to you if you believe in Jesus? If so, I reject the idea. Jesus was a terrific Jew. He was as good a rabbi as any there ever was. But, if there are PREREQUISITES to getting into heaven.. like, "You can get into heaven ONLY if you believe in ME." Remember, hundreds of millions of human beings happened to have lived on this planet BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN. They are, according to the above idea, rotting in hell.

The cornerstone of Christianity is simply that if you do not believe in Christ, you are damned. Whether you are good or not is not the issue. That's why there are missionaries. Their purpose is to "save souls." If God created man so that we can worship him. I reject that notion and believe that is creation of man. Man is supposedly created in the image of God. The sad truth might be that God seems to have been created in the image of Man....by men.

If ONLY it were true: that man was created in the image of God. Remember, the image we have of God from the Judeo/Christian holy books is: Violent, vengeful (I shall smite thine enemies from the land... hey, wait a minute, I thought we were ALL God's children. Oh, I get it... we're only God's children if we worship God in the way he wants to be worshipped.), vain (you shall have no other Gods before me) and so on.

God, unfortunately sounds like a human being with very low self esteem and with a huge violent streak in him. I believe all above have the same chance of getting into Heaven (if there is one.). I don't think God's ego is weak enough to demand that we believe in him. The notion of a "jealous" God is a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS. Either God is not subject to human foibles (like jealousy), in which case he could care less if you believed in him or anyone else...or he is designed like human beings and is jealous, vain and vengeful.
If there isn't a God, it doesn't matter what I think about him/her/it. If there IS a God, it still shouldn't matter. Here's why: if most religions agree with the notion that God is above human foibles, God doesn't have an ego. Therefore, God shouldn't care if religion exists at all. See?

"You shall have no other Gods before me." (One of the ten commandments, by the way). This sounds like someone with poor self esteem. If God created everything and is eternal and all powerful, why should God care if we worship some other God? The notion that there is only "one way" to worship him/she/it is human fantasy.

And lest we forget, neither the Bible or the New Testament, or the Book of Mormon or any other Judeo/Christian book is the end all or be all. Remember, there are Buddhists, Hindus and literally thousands of other religions that are just as valid.

Jesus IS Yesua Ben Yoseph. He was called "Christ" from the Latin "Christo" meaning Messiah (in itself a Hebrew word) or king. He may be the son of God, or not... but Christ is simply a title... not a name. That's why he is often referred to as "The Christ." Or, "the Christ Child." Meaning: The Messiah...

In regards to Baptism - it's not a Christian tradition at all. It came, as most Christian traditions and beliefs from the Jews. Jews routinely performed the same ritual every week in a 'MIKVAH"... the water helped "wash away one's sins." Water, to a nomadic, desert people like the Wandering Jews of the Old Testament, meant more than survival... it was also an allegory for life itself.

In relation to this thread and Miss California – she might be surprised to learn the early Popes of Christianity were sometimes homosexual, fathered children with their own daughters, had liasons with underage children - male and female...and, in fact, were allowed to get married - I'm assuming only heterosexual marriage... and yet, it's clear then (as now) some of the religious leaders are in fact homosexual.

If God created everything, he certainly created Gay men. And, if we are all God's children, then by definition it includes ALL. Additionally and more importantly, scientists are leaning more and more to the opinion that being gay is not a choice, but a genetic disposition. You are born Gay. Period. Whether your priest agrees with it or not.

Put aside religion and church for a second. Ever wonder why God created cancer to torture his children? (That's, of course assuming we all agree that everything was created by God...if so, all disease, cancers, cavities and so on).

And finally, more people have been killed in the name of God (and continue to be) than all the wars combined. Man did this. Not God.

[Natty]

I don't believe in God and feel that religion in general is moronic.

I am a Christian I've had many religious arguements on this page so I won't analyse every one of your points but I'll start by saying that religion is not 'moronic'. Even you are religious in a sense. Religion is a system of beliefs on what created us and how we should live so everyone has one.

I think like many atheists a lot of your anti-religion arguements tend to stem from anger towards religious people rather than a logical explanation as to why God doesn't exist-but I suppose you seem to have pretty much made your mind up that there is nothing 'out there' :(

I apologise in advance but a lot of anti-religion arguements are silly disguising as smart. For example, 'The Bible is a beautiful fairy tale'...who's central character is a violent avenger with low self-esteem?

[Hey Man]

I am a Christian I've had many religious arguements on this page so I won't analyse every one of your points but I'll start by saying that religion is not 'moronic'. Even you are religious in a sense. Religion is a system of beliefs on what created us and how we should live so everyone has one.

I think like many atheists a lot of your anti-religion arguements tend to stem from anger towards religious people rather than a logical explanation as to why God doesn't exist-but I suppose you seem to have pretty much made your mind up that there is nothing 'out there' :(

I apologise in advance but a lot of anti-religion arguements are silly disguising as smart. For example, 'The Bible is a beautiful fairy tale'...who's central character is a violent avenger with low self-esteem?

I have no anger towards religious people - I just find it amazing that they choose to believe in such fairy tales.

My arguments are very valid and factual in many ways - but you like most Christians are missing the point and simply choose to ignore reality.

[Darth Kenshin]

I have no anger towards religious people - I just find it amazing that they choose to believe in such fairy tales.

My arguments are very valid and factual in many ways - but you like most Christians are missing the point and simply choose to ignore reality.

You make good points, but it all comes down to whether or not you believe the Bible was inspired by God. You clearly said you don't, whereas Christians do. And there's nothing that can be definitively proven. So I'm not gonna bother engaging in any back-and-forth about beliefs, because it won't get us anywhere.

The only problem I had with your post is taking small parts of the Bible and categorizing God as "violent", "vengeful", and "someone with poor self-esteem." That may be true on some level ("poor self-esteem" is not quite accurate, but it is written that he is a "jealous" God), but that's not all there is to the Judeo-Christian God. The picture the Bible paints includes love, mercy, and other positive qualities. Also, I wouldn't call God "violent," because any acts of violence were not aimless, but that's just a matter of interpretation. I tend to feel "violent" people just love carnage.

[zombievictim]

Now let this be a reminder:

Religion is a heated topic. Always very emotional and people can get very into it. Let's not have any bashing of a persons religion or saying "You're wrong." Stuff in here can easily get out of hand and action will be taken right away. So choose your words carefully.

[Natty]

I have no anger towards religious people - I just find it amazing that they choose to believe in such fairy tales.

My arguments are very valid and factual in many ways - but you like most Christians are missing the point and simply choose to ignore reality.

I don't believe in all the so-called 'fairy tales' by the way.

What is this 'reality' you speak of, you believe things you have read and heard-just like I do. I'm fed up of all these bloody crusading atheists "Oh no, I've read that this and this has happened and so that must be what is true, you just believe in bullshit". Stop being rude and bigotted, the only reason why you (I'm talking to all atheists) believe the stuff you read is true and the stuff I read isn't is because some of the people who also believe in the stuff I've read have killed people and done very horrid things. I understand the bitterness and anger completely, but don't make out that this knowledge that you have recieved (I say again, READ) is much more valid than mine.

I've already pointed out that you have contradicted yourself ("Just like the Bible man!!:rolleyes:") so your arguements aren't 'very valid and factual in many ways'.

To take another example (I'm gonna have to end up doing all of them aren't I), "Jesus IS Yesua Ben Yoseph, Christ is simply a title"
----Even if this were true...so what? I don't mind what we call him.

"Additionally and more importantly, scientists are leaning more and more to the opinion that being gay is not a choice, but a genetic disposition. You are born Gay. Period. Whether your priest agrees with it or not."
------I was born gay? Do you have video proof?
------Oh 'the scientists' said it. :rolleyes:
------I don't have the opinion of my priest, the Bible doesn't say it isn't a choice, it says you shouldn't have homosexual sex.

As for the 'missing the point', what exactly are you argueing here? Baptism wasn't invented by Christians? Bad things happen? There are other religious?
----OK.

[Natty]

Now let this be a reminder:

Religion is a heated topic. Always very emotional and people can get very into it. Let's not have any bashing of a persons religion or saying "You're wrong." Stuff in here can easily get out of hand and action will be taken right away. So choose your words carefully.

Yeah I'm not gonna take this too far as I have done in the past. My last post is only as long as it is because I'm desperate to know this great reality that I've ignored...and why I apparently 'don't get' what Hey Man is saying.

I will not explain why bad things happen in this world (for the 50th time), so let's not go there.

[Smiert Spionam]

Oh, sky cake... :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

[Smarmy Douche]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIW27p4BI_g

[Darth Kenshin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIW27p4BI_g

not even sure what to say about that

[rilocay]

What i find interesting about Christianity and Catholisism is how the Pope/Vatican took a stranglehold on parts of the world (back in the days of the empire etc) and really took control like a government but changed things and censored things from the past to their liking. It's a really interesting subject to read up on, and it says alot about how their religion has evolved through the times.

[spacemonkey]

Damn, I guess I missed this thread. Thats what happens when you only read "general movie talk" and dont venture anywhere in the vast universe of Joblo Threads.

But onto "religion"

I hate it. Its all an illusion, no one knows NOTHING. No one knows how we got here, where we came from, how it all started and now one knows what happens when we die either, so they make up all these fantasies and get people to believe in them.

People should learn to live without religion, because its essentially a pack of lies, illusions and fantasy. It makes you believe (through faith) in things that dont exist!

The simple fact that theres so many lets you know that non of them are right. They all have one thing in common and its really what unites them: they are all just grasping for answers to the big questions: Who made us? Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die? Since the silence to those questions is so powerful, humans have made up their own stories to the origins of life. Each culture has done it in their own way.

In a way, the existense of so many religions is your answer. They all exist because no one on earth knows the answers, the gotta make em up!

Live your life to the fullest, be the best human being you can be, dont harm others or yourself. Mystery is what makes life interesting. Live your life by these standards and you should be able to have a good time on earth.

[Natty]

We've already had a big and frustrating arguement so I won't delve into it more.

However...

No one knows how we got here, where we came from, how it all started and now one knows what happens when we die either, so they make up all these fantasies and get people to believe in them.

This is just as much an arguement against atheism as any religion, people have to realise that atheism is a religion too. You can't 'get rid of religion' because religion is just a system of beliefs...and everybody has one.

[john_rambo]

Let me go in depth to my beliefs rather than the three sentences I did at the beginning of the thread.

I consider myself an Agnostic Christian If that makes sense. I believe in God, I believe Jesus was the son of God, I believe in the blueprints that the Bible lays out for how to live, and I hate where the religion has come to. A large quantity of "Christians" have decided that Christianity is all about what is going to send you to hell, and telling others (homosexuals, fornicators, etc...) why they are "going to hell". When by doing that, they are clearly going against the principles laid out in the bible, thus being hypocritical. This is where I differ, you will never see me judging another group for their moral beliefs (though I get judged for mine on occasion).

I believe a lot of sins are man made such as (GASP!) cursing and all that. I really do not see God saying "you said shit instead of poop, you are going to hell!". Cursing is the dumbest "offensive" thing on the planet. I do not blaspheme however. Other words I do say (maybe too much). Though if someone is offended by language I do not use it around them. I believe that no one, not Christians, Atheists, Scientologists, Muslims, Buddhists, know exactly where we came from and how exactly everything came about whether it was created or came from evolution. I believe it was created, but am not going to even try to figure out whether (POOF) it was here, or if it was a long process like Evolution.

As far as Heaven or Hell there again I am not sure how they work. Some Christians think the planet earth is hell and we need to work our way up to heaven during our time here. I believe in your heart you truly love God and accept Jesus as your savior and live your life showing it (not forcing) that is more important than anything no matter what.

In the end, I believe in the Bible, I believe in what it says, and I also believe people have misinterpreted and added a lot that is not there, and I am not going to sit here and say I understand it all to a T (anyone who claims to understand ANY belief 100% is lying), but in the bottom of my heart that is where my beliefs come from.

Here's to you, Jesus!

http://scrapetv.com/The%20Visual/Choose%20your/Jesus/buddy_christ-3.jpg

[BakeTheMooCow]

No one knows how we got here, where we came from, how it all started and now one knows what happens when we die either, so they make up all these fantasies and get people to believe in them.

This is just as much an arguement against atheism as any religion, people have to realise that atheism is a religion too. You can't 'get rid of religion' because religion is just a system of beliefs...and everybody has one.

No, atheism is not a religion. And what spacemonkey said is not an argument against atheism.

No one knows how we got here and what happens after we die. Religious people attribute life and afterlife to 'God'. They just flat out assign God as the creator of life and say that we are going to return to him after we die. There's no evidence for this and no basis for saying it other than it has been repeated and reinforced for hundreds of years and people find it comforting because ignorance makes them uneasy.

People who don't believe in god, meanwhile, say that we shouldn't just accept this answer because it's convenient and easy. Instead, we should investigate and experiment and ponder and query our existence to reach a conclusion that can be supported by evidence.

Bringing god into the discussion is putting the cart before the horse. You can't start with the conclusion that god exists and work backwards. Atheists say that there's nothing because there's no evidence that anything is there.

And even if you were to say that 'OK, there had to be something supernatural that sparked life because you can't create something from nothing', there is no evidence that god is an omniscient, omnipotent being who hears all our thoughts and grants our prayers.

That's all atheism is. It's not a religion. It's a natural state of being.

Let's say we were to discover a planet that could sustain life and we all left Earth to inhabit that planet. But as soon as we stepped foot on that planet, our memories would be wiped clean. We wouldn't have any idea of the Judeo-Christian god as people have today. Maybe we would wonder about our existence and come up with an idea of a god, but it could be a god like Zeus and Jupiter and Osiris. That's because all ideas of gods are human inventions and we make these supernatural beings up because we are afraid of the unknown. Atheism is just a clean slate, the null hypothesis.

[Smarmy Douche]

This is just as much an arguement against atheism as any religion, people have to realise that atheism is a religion too. You can't 'get rid of religion' because religion is just a system of beliefs...and everybody has one.

Gigantic fallacy! Danger! Danger Will Robinson!

[Potter82]

Athiesm is no more a religion than science.

If it could actually be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that god existed, you could then say that anyone who still refuses to believe in god is adhering to a religion since such a position would no longer be based on evidence or fact, it would be based on a belief system.



Personally, I'd describe myself as an agnostic. I think humanity currently lacks the capacity and knowledge to fully understand our universe so in all honesty, I can no more say with complete certainty that there isn't a god than I can say with complete certainty that there is a god.

Of course, when I say god I'm not taking about the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god, I'm talking about something far more complex and non-human like - a being or beings existing on a whole other plane of existence currently beyond our ability to comprehend in a meaningful way. As an analogy, it would be like an amoeba trying to comprehend humanity.

In regard to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god, I think it is nothing more than the ultimate manifestation of the Father figure archetype and mankind's own inflated sense of importance in the grand scheme of things.

[Darth Kenshin]

I just wanna bring back that video link that smarmy douche posted and ask a question:

How do those of you who belong to an organized religion feel about religious leaders in politics? I'm not talking about the horrendous historical examples, but when religious leaders such as the one in that video flame political leaders, is that something you guys support? Not necessarily the flaming itself, but just a political leader voicing a general political opinion (I feel most of us would agree that saying Obama works for the devil is pretty ludicrous)