Conspiracy Theories!

[john_rambo]

Title explains it. Started out as a conspiracy theory thread but expanded it to myths and hoaxes (such as Aliens, Big Foot, Paranormal Activity, all that. Before we start let me state the obvious. This is all for fun, you can share your opinion and what not on one or what not, but do not judge others no matter what they think. Anyway, here are a few starters.

http://www.pixelsurgeon.com/admin/shared/images/cobain_big.jpg1085432338

The Subject: Kurt Cobain's "Suicide"

The Conspiracy It was a murder set up by Courtney Love to appear as though it was a suicide.

The Evidence

-The Shotgun was so long, he would have had to use his toes to pull the trigger, but he was wearing shoes.

-The Heroine in his system was 3 times the lethal limit, so even if he somehow did survive that amount, he would be in no shape to pull a trigger.

-Courtney Love claimed to be Kurt's mom when she filed the missing person's report

-El Duce came forward and said Courtney Love offered him 50 grand to kill kurt, only to be found dead in a car "accident" not long after.

-The note found at the scene by the police was immediately labeled as a "suicide note." The police report states it was "apparently written by Cobain to his wife and daughter, explaining why he had killed himself."
But this note was not addressed to Kurt's wife and daughter and it says nothing about "killing himself!" This note was clearly written to Cobain's fans telling them he was quitting the music business. There was only a short footnote to Courtney and Frances and the handwriting contained in those lines has been questioned by several handwriting experts.

-many more at http://www.justiceforkurt.com and http://www.cobaincase.com

Do I Believe it?

Actually, this is one of the few I do. There's a lot of questionable stuff that went on. I recommend everyone watch the documentary "Kurt and Courtney", it is a really interesting look at this case.

http://blogs.ancestry.com/circle/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/Moon%20landing.jpg

Subject: The Moon Landing

The Theory: It never happened

The Evidence:

- The Shuttle left no imprint when taking off

- The Flag waves despite no air on the moon

- Many photo's appear to be doctored

- There were many deaths of key detractors of NASA and the Apollo Missions

-More on the theory http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Do I Believe It?

I think we landed, I think weird stuff goes out in space, though I do think Nasa could have doctored photos, not to cover up a hoax, but to make them more "sexy".

You Got Any?

[jackson13]

The Kurt one, I've never really paid attention to. It's like Biggie and Tupac: shut up already. No one knows what happened, no one will, just get over it and on with it.

But the moon one; we landed. You can look on googlemoon and see where we landed. Not to mention that we placed reflectors on the moon that we continually shoot lasers at that bounce right back to us to tell us exactly, to the millimeter, how far away the moon is from us at any given day/point/time.

[outsyder]

There are a significant amount of inconsistencies in the Cobain case, but there is also a lot of damning behavioural evidence, such as his suicide attempt in Rome not long before his eventual death.

Hard to say exactly what happened.

People landed on the moon. I really don't know how any conspiracy has gotten this far.

[jolanar]

Some of that moon landing stuff is pretty convincing though.

[Smarmy Douche]

Oh goody.

My favorite conspiracy theory is the one where the world is secretly ruled by a species of shapeshifting reptiles. It's so perfect in its level of monstrous paranoia, this They Live idea that there are those among us who are not human a.k.a. eeevvvviiiilll, that breeds such an inherent distrust, it would be interesting to really dig into those morons like David Icke who spread this shit and see whether they have an agenda of their own (despite farming money from saps of course), or whether they're genuinely insane.

P.S. First person to mention 2012 gets kicked in the e-nuts.

[jackson13]

Oh goody.

My favorite conspiracy theory is the one where the world is secretly ruled by a species of shapeshifting reptiles. It's so perfect in its level of monstrous paranoia, this They Live idea that there are those among us who are not human a.k.a. eeevvvviiiilll, that breeds such an inherent distrust, it would be interesting to really dig into those morons like David Icke who spread this shit and see whether they have an agenda of their own (despite farming money from saps of course), or whether they're genuinely insane.

Reptiles? Dare I ask, wtf are you babbling about?

[Smarmy Douche]

Reptiles? Dare I ask, wtf are you babbling about?

Believe me, it's a testament to you having a well-rounded life and good company that you've never heard of this one, I've roomed with some very weird people and one of them truly believed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid
http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/

[Tweek]

From Roswell to Men In Black, aliens have been popular with conspiracy theorists.



Do I believe? I can't really say that I'm a skeptic. I can't bring myself to believe that Earth is the only planet with life, though.

Oh goody.

My favorite conspiracy theory is the one where the world is secretly ruled by a species of shapeshifting reptiles. It's so perfect in its level of monstrous paranoia, this They Live idea that there are those among us who are not human a.k.a. eeevvvviiiilll, that breeds such an inherent distrust, it would be interesting to really dig into those morons like David Icke who spread this shit and see whether they have an agenda of their own (despite farming money from saps of course), or whether they're genuinely insane.

P.S. First person to mention 2012 gets kicked in the e-nuts.

I remember that one! I was really excited when there was that rumor about the next Wright/Pegg/Frost movie involving that. Turned out to be false though. Sad. I definitely don't believe it, I feel I should add. :p

[jackson13]

Believe me, it's a testament to you having a well-rounded life and good company that you've never heard of this one, I've roomed with some very weird people and one of them truly believed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid
http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/

That just might be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read in my entire life.

Ever.

[john_rambo]

more ridiculous than this?

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/12/66%20At%20Least%20He%20Has%20A%20Gun.jpg

[Brendan M.]

This one is my favorite:


http://www.12vn.net/images/400px-Mothman_statue_2005.jpg


MOTHMAN

The weird events connected to the Mothman began on November 12, 1966 near Clendenin, West Virginia. Five men were in the local cemetery that day, preparing a grave for a burial, when something that looked like a “brown human being” lifted off from some nearby trees and flew over their heads. The men were baffled. It did not appear to be a bird, but more like a man with wings. A few days later, more sightings would take place, electrifying the entire region.


Read on here:

http://www.prairieghosts.com/moth.html

[Danger^Cart]

Believe me, it's a testament to you having a well-rounded life and good company that you've never heard of this one, I've roomed with some very weird people and one of them truly believed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_humanoid
http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/

This guy is the plucky hero who's seemingly insane theories no one believes until it's too late and all is forever lost.

[The Postmaster General]

Oh goody.

My favorite conspiracy theory is the one where the world is secretly ruled by a species of shapeshifting reptiles. It's so perfect in its level of monstrous paranoia, this They Live idea that there are those among us who are not human a.k.a. eeevvvviiiilll, that breeds such an inherent distrust, it would be interesting to really dig into those morons like David Icke who spread this shit and see whether they have an agenda of their own (despite farming money from saps of course), or whether they're genuinely insane.

P.S. First person to mention 2012 gets kicked in the e-nuts.


Yeah, you can actually find some youtube videos where people claim proof of new anchors or politicians shape shifting on camera.

Here's one, but you can just type in "reptilian" on their search and there's tons - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFpes9qWMj4





A good read, one of my favorite books, is Robert Anton Wilson's Everything is Under Control --- it's an encyclopedia of conspiracy theories, written with the theories in alphabetical order, but it also has a subtle narration that pokes fun at the reader... or maybe I came up with my own conspiracy about the book... Knowing the writer though, he definitely fucks with context and word usage. It's a funny read for that reason, but also touches on tons of theories, many I'd never heard of. When I get back home, I'll post some on here from the book.

http://renegadefuturist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/everythingis.jpg

[rilocay]

I honestly belive that the moon landing video and images are fake. It was done for more of the politics at the time b/w Russia. I mean, 2001 (the film) is believable enough which was done before the moonlanding (if i'm not mistaken), and besides there would be enouhg money to cover it up and fake everything from this point to today quite easily and still have us believe it without question. Theres many good reason's/ for and against, i aplaud both, but i just find it odd that we havn't had anything as big with the moon since (how about a new video on the moon with something bigger?), considering the tech of back then compared to now.

The tech they used back then to get there and the cost would have become significantly easier and cheaper as the years progressed, so why not? Obviously there's much better things to do, we have still so much left undiscovered in our own planet, but still it irks me. Once you start doing something succesfully you don't just stop....sex, stealing, drugs, moonlanding (:p), it's all the same.

[outsyder]

Why?

1. It costs a fuck ton of money to go to the moon

2. It's a pile of grey dust.

The space race ended. There was no reason to keep going back there. The political victory was had.

Of course now that there's speculation that the moon has a large heluim 3 deposit and may serve beneficial in helping launch a manned mission to Mars, interest has been renewed.

[jackson13]

MOTHMAN


I own John Keel's book that chronicals all of the events. Very, very, different than what was adapted into the movie, but a very good read as well. I dont believe in much, but after reading about those people, all of their stories, everything that happened and was documented....I'm a believer.

[The Postmaster General]

I own John Keel's book that chronicals all of the events. Very, very, different than what was adapted into the movie, but a very good read as well. I dont believe in much, but after reading about those people, all of their stories, everything that happened and was documented....I'm a believer.


I have family from that area, and grew up with them telling me stories swearing they'd seen it or knew people who had. They were sane/smart people, though they did like to spin a good yarn, so I never knew how to take it.

[jackson13]

Brand new proof of the stuff we left on the Moon.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/17jul_lroc.htm?list17745

[FireCaptain4]

I bit the Love one. One of my friends has been obsessive about it since Junior High. One time, in Physics class while we were in High School, a classmate said Kurt commited suicide and he went off on them. He began a, what must of been, 10+ minute speech about how Courtney Love killed him and the classmate was so shocked and lost that she couldn't even respond.

Even if Courtney Love somehow didn't kill him, she's still a disgusting and vile human being. Another part of the evidence you didn't mention is that Cobain was in the middle of divorcing her-- and there's part of your motive.

Here's an awesome list of real conspiracies that'll blow your obsessive load: http://www.cracked.com/article_15974_7-insane-conspiracies-that-actually-happened.html

The Fascist coup:
In 1933, group of wealthy businessmen that allegedly included the heads of Chase Bank, GM, Goodyear, Standard Oil, the DuPont family and Senator Prescott Bush tried to recruit Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler to lead a military coup against President FDR and install a fascist dictatorship in the United States. And yes, we're talking about the same Prescott Bush who fathered one US President and grandfathered another one.

A good rule of thumb: never trust a man named Smedley to run your hostile military coup for you. Besides being no fan of fascism, Smedley Butler was both a patriot and a vocal FDR supporter. Apparently none of these criminal masterminds noticed that their prospective point man had actively stumped for FDR in 1932.

Smedley spilled the beans to a congressional committee in 1934. Everyone he accused of being a conspirator vehemently denied it, and none of them were brought up on criminal charges. Still, the House McCormack-Dickstein Committee did at least acknowledge the existence of the conspiracy, which ended up never getting past the initial planning stages.

Though many of the people who had allegedly backed the Business Plot also maintained financial ties with Nazi Germany up through America's entry into World War II. But at least the United States never ended up becoming a fascist dictatorship (unless you ask Ron Paul supporters).

The lesson here? Fascist or not, you don't fuck around with guys named Smedley or Dickstein.

The Tuskegee Experiment:
Sometimes referred to as the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, the idea was that the United States government was going to monitor the effects of syphilis and perform experiments on those who had a developed form of the disease. That doesn't sound so bad, right? Well you're a terrible person for thinking that, because the experiments were exclusively performed without consent, and on the very poor, mostly illiterate black males.

These men weren't told that they had syphilis and were denied proper treatment for their disease. Because that would have skewed the results, you see. But hey, at least the government promised free burials to those who died.

The study (started in 1932 in Tuskegee, Alabama) eventually rounded up 400 black men in a move that would inspire Rage Against the Machine-esque lyrics for years to come. But, contrary to conspiracy enthusiasts, they did not actually give people syphilis, they just examined the symptoms of people who already had the disease. Then, things got out of hand:

Doctor 1: "Darn. I'm afraid that we might not get the numbers we want for the next part of this study."

Doctor 2: "Why is that?"

Doctor 1: "Because it involves administering a painful and dangerous spinal tap for no medical reason."

Doctor 2: "Hmm ... Well, why don't we just underline the word "Free" and tell them that it's a special treatment for their symptoms."

Doctor 1: "But, wouldn't that be a horrible lie?"

Doctor 2: "A horrible what?"

When there was a national campaign to use penicillin to stamp out the disease, those in the study were denied access. If they complained loudly enough, they were given a placebo and then sent back home to die. But not before scientists poked and prodded them for the remaining years of their life.

It took until 1972 for someone to blow the whistle on all of this. That's 40 years. And that's after Peter Buxtun, the whistle blower, went to the Center for Disease Control, which told him that they would absolutely end this barbaric experiment, just as soon as they completed the last stage of the study. That stage involved studying the corpses of the subjects, and of course they couldn't do that quite yet because some were stubbornly still alive.

As a result, in 1974 they passed the National Research Act, which finally closed the apparent loophole in American law that said it was OK for mad scientists to kill people in their experiments.

Operation Snow White/ The Revenge of Scientology:
Some time during the 1970s, the Church of Scientology decided that they'd had enough. Their religion about magic space aliens in a volcano wasn't getting the same respect as the religion about the magic bearded man whose dad made us all out of mud 6,000 years ago. Instead of converting to a slightly less silly religion, they did what any of us would have done and decided to destroy every single document that made their religion look bad, presumably including a trip into the future to destroy every copy of Battlefield Earth.

Disturbingly well, at least for a little while. Apparently, the Church of Scientology managed to perform the largest infiltration of the United States government in history. Ever. With all the people who have wanted to get their dirty little hands on incriminating records, the United States of America was finally duped by the people who came up with Dianetics. So those billions of dollars we put into national security annually are clearly well spent.

Anyway, somewhere around 5,000 of Scientology's crack commandos wiretapped and burglarized various agencies. They stole hundreds of documents, mainly from the IRS. No critic was spared, and in the end, 136 organizations, agencies and foreign embassies were infiltrated.

When all of this hit the fan, the Church naturally denied it. Then they kidnapped one of the operatives arrested for stealing documents and prevented him from testifying. These days, the Church of Scientology generally refuses to talk about Operation Snow White, except to say that they "purged" those who were involved. They won't say what the guilty parties were involved in, and those who were purged still hold high ranking offices in the Church, but goddamn it, they were purged for their involvement.

and the big one...

Project MKULTRA:
Don't be fooled. Project MKULTRA isn't the misspelled secret recipe to McDonald's newest hamburger. It was actually a series of CIA experiments in which they tried to figure out how to control your mind. Over a hundred sub-projects were authorized under the MKULTRA heading, though the documents on many of those have been destroyed.

If you listen to late night talk radio, then you've probably already heard of Project MKULTRA. Paranoid schizophrenics from coast to coast like to call in to recount their harrowing tales of psychic violation at the hands of the CIA. Turns out the schizophrenics got something right though, because Project MKULTRA was an actual series of experiments started on April 13, 1953.

You can decide for yourself whether or not the late-night radio callers are actually victims of these experiments, though we would like to suggest that if they are all telling the truth, it's strange that the CIA would only experiment on nocturnal conspiracy-nuts.

The project started out as a response to rumors of Communist mind control being used on American prisoners from the Korean War. Afraid of being left in the enemy's pseudo-scientific dust, the CIA quickly jumped on the mind control bandwagon. However, they got their procedures wrong in one crucial aspect; instead of experimenting on enemy prisoners that the national media wouldn't miss, they decided to go ahead and start jamming probes and shooting drugs into unwitting United States citizens.

Did we mention that these experiments resulted in at least one death? Or that experiments done on people seeking treatment for minor psychological issues (such as anxiety) often caused them to suffer permanent comas and/or incontinence? Or that the CIA themselves admitted that the experiments made no scientific sense?

The project was eventually found out, and the CIA was given a stern talking to.

As far as anyone can tell, they were unable to succeed in finding a way to control the way people act or think. Though we'd probably say the same thing if they had succeeded.



http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/12/66%20At%20Least%20He%20Has%20A%20Gun.jpg

Hey, Zardoz is a classic!

[Powerslave]

I dunno if this counts as a conspiracy theory, or whatever (probably not?), but I've had an intense interest in this story ever since first hearing about it.

The Gorman Ranch, AKA The Skinwalker Ranch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinwalker_Ranch
http://www.aliendave.com/Article_PathoftheSkinwalker_p1.html
http://www.aliendave.com/Article_PathoftheSkinwalker_p2.html

Check it out. Some of the craziest claims or paranormal activity I've ever come across. Is it true? I dunno, but it sounds crazier than anything anybody'd be able to make up.

[Abbie Normal]

I believe like 90% of this series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw

There are like 17 or 18 parts. Be sure to watch #7

[john_rambo]

Yeah Paranormal shit can be in here, maybe I'll edit the title to include that. (Maybe a Mod could change it to show up to the editted one? :D)

since we are adding that... I came across this pic I had seen before, but saw it again yesterday when I was lookin at Paranormal shit on wikipedia.

Photo of Lincoln's wife taken after his death.

http://andrewjacksondavis.com/lincolnresearch/galler12.jpg

Creepy stuff... I dunno what I believe in regards to ghosts and what not, but that is some creepy stuff. Supposedly many presidents/family members have seen his ghost around the white house too.

[Preston_79]

Brand new proof of the stuff we left on the Moon.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/17jul_lroc.htm?list17745



Those photos are about as craptastic as a conspiracy theory photo. Not to mention they're being released by NASA, the very organization being accused in of the conspiracy in question.

[BlownCamaro]

Never understood the nuts that thought we did not land on the moon with so much proof pointing to the fact that we did. Do not get me wrong, I have read many of the theories on why we didnt and why we couldnt and they are pretty convincing but just not true.

The only conspiracy theory I ever really cared to find out the truth about would be the JFK assassination and maybe Area 51. I am sure there is 100% for a fact an area 51 but does it contain dead alien bodies or spacecraft? That is what I want to know. Or is it some false rumor spread by the government to hide the real "area 51" which is probably in some mountain range, tucked away in vast caves? Who knows?

[Natty]

You gotta love Conspiracy Theories.

I have a friend who firmly believes in the 9/11 theory and he actually sent me a link to The Pentagon blowing up, the point being that the government blew it up and you never see a plane hit.

However on that very link I pointed out a plane hitting the building :rolleyes:

[ericdraven]

I believe like 90% of this series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw

There are like 17 or 18 parts. Be sure to watch #7

oh christ, here we go.

[The Postmaster General]

Another part of the evidence you didn't mention is that Cobain was in the middle of divorcing her-- and there's part of your motive.


I don't buy that, man. Why would she give up being labeled a divorcee, and taking legal possession of half his assets, to risk being, you know, labeled a murderer. That doesn't make any sense.

My opinion is that Cobain was killed, but not by someone's hand, but by the neglect of many of the people around him. It isn't like he wrote lyrics about one day being a grandpa, for Pete's sake. Take into account his well documented personal struggles, and it's not like saying he was killed is what makes the most sense.

[RicochetShaw]

Yeah, you can actually find some youtube videos where people claim proof of new anchors or politicians shape shifting on camera.

Here's one, but you can just type in "reptilian" on their search and there's tons - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFpes9qWMj4




I'd never heard of this Reptilian Shapeshifting Humanoid stuff before. This has to be the most nutty conspiracy I've heard of yet.

That video, though, is pretty weird. What do you think is the explanation for the eye... changes?

[Natty]

I believe like 90% of this series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw

There are like 17 or 18 parts. Be sure to watch #7

I'm not too sure about this '3rd building'. What's the story there? It wasn't in the terrorist attack was it?

[APzombie]

i don't believe in any of the conspiracies mentioned so far though i always find them interesting. The 9/11 consiracy is ridiculous, same with the moon landing.

[ilovemovies]

Is the shapeshifting reptiles conspiracy the same as the new world order crap or am I getting these two confused with eachother?

I think they are two separate conspiracy theories because my mom doesn't believe in the lizzard people conspiracy but is a believer in the new world order. Sadly, my uncle IS a believer in the lizzard people. I love my uncle but he's a nutty guy.

[Smarmy Douche]

Actually, there are plenty of powerful people up top who want a one-world government (the recently passed Walter Cronkite among them). But the idea that these people are plotting to put chips in everybody and rule ze vurld, is another thing. Because there is a difference. I support a one-world nation, in an idealized world. I don't think it would ever really work, which is why people like Cronkite in particular always seemed to talk about it like a daydream.

To be fair to the conspiracy theorists, I wouldn't put it past a lot of them, any groups whose annual meetings are attended by Henry Kissinger surely doesn't have anybody's interests in mind but their own, but this conspiracy lends itself to the idea eight billion people would allow themselves to be patently enslaved, and, like the lizard conspiracy, that all members of the ruling class are actually evvvillll, and that's a level of paranoia I'm not really capable of being.

I have yet to meet anyone who wants a computer chip in them. And of all the countries of the world I've been to, they seem to enjoy sovereignty very much, thank you, including America.

[The Postmaster General]

That video, though, is pretty weird. What do you think is the explanation for the eye... changes?

I'm thinking some kind of video artifacts.

[Natty]

I had a look into the lizard people thoery...man that is weird, the random eye changes are pretty scary.

The same person who uploaded all the eye change videos uploaded a video of a Michael Jackson recording in which a lizard's face randomly appears in the background. I know he created it but still...freaky.

[Abbie Normal]

I'm not too sure about this '3rd building'. What's the story there? It wasn't in the terrorist attack was it?

Watch the video parts and they will explain. The first few are points and then they give you some details in the other parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw

[Abbie Normal]

oh christ, here we go.

So you can tell me without any shadow of doubt that buildings just fall like that because of a fire? I did not buy it when I saw it and I don't buy it now.

[outsyder]

Because a secret CIA demolitions team is more likely?

ya ok

[Shinigami]

This is my favorite thread in the misc. forum

Shape shifting reptiles are out of this world. Keep em coming schmoes!

[countchocula]

So you can tell me without any shadow of doubt that buildings just fall like that because of a fire?

Yes.

I'm still waiting for someone to fly a jumbo jet into the Sears...Willis Tower as a "science experiment."

[echo_bravo]

GW Bush and his goons were 100% behind the Towers getting destroyed. Charlie Sheen and Rosie O Donnell agree with me so it must be true!

[APzombie]

anybody who believes 9/11 was an inside job thinks too highly of the American government.

The government is not competent enough to pull of such a thing all the while keeping it a secret, especially when it was under Bush. They couldn't get a helicopter in a stadium during Katrina, what makes you think they could pull off something like 9/11?

[Ayestrain]

Great thread!

This one is my favorite:

MOTHMAN

Read on here:

http://www.prairieghosts.com/moth.html


I own John Keel's book that chronicals all of the events. Very, very, different than what was adapted into the movie, but a very good read as well. I dont believe in much, but after reading about those people, all of their stories, everything that happened and was documented....I'm a believer.

John Keel's book is the shit--I grew up around & went to college just hours from the area (Point Pleasant). That was a book I was pretty creeped out to read alone at home at night, and I'm someone that doesn't get easily creeped out or scared by horror stuff.

They did indeed cut out many passages of the book for the movie, especially the UFO sightings in the area at the time, which play into the Mothman mythology pretty significantly. The UFO stuff is all well documented and was seen by hundreds living in the town. Keel is much like Jacque Vallee, the French UFO researcher, in approach. He gives you so much anecdotal evidence of UFO encounters that it becomes almost boring. There have been literally millions of some kind of UFO / alien encounters documented around the world.

My theory? The government could've been testing some kind of mind control substance (not unlike the well documented MK-Ultra experiments) in the Ohio Valley region back then in the late 60's. That could account for the mass hallucinations, if that's what they were.

Anyway, I love a good conspiracy story but they start to make me feel schizo after awhile...

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fs20.jpg

[Ayestrain]

anybody who believes 9/11 was an inside job thinks too highly of the American government.

The government is not competent enough to pull of such a thing all the while keeping it a secret, especially when it was under Bush. They couldn't get a helicopter in a stadium during Katrina, what makes you think they could pull off something like 9/11?

Not to double post--but I was of the mind at the time of the Bush administration that the image of them as ineffective was one played for effect, that GW Bush was set up as the bumble-fuck in charge, while old-schoolers from the depths of the GOP, Cheney, Rumsfeld, among them, were effective, ruthless, connected, and had motive to parlay the 9/11 attacks into a war on Iraq. Whether they caused said attacks or even allowed them to happen is open for debate.

There's just too much shit involved with 9/11 that doesn't make sense--I think it's still too big and traumatizing for people to get their heads around.

Also--what makes you think they wanted to get a helicopter into a stadium during Katrina? The Bush admin. were content to let those people drown in the mud for 4 or 5 days for fuck's sake.

[john_rambo]

It wasn't just a fire that knocked down the twin towers. I mean a plane traveling at 100's of miles an hour, exploding, and spreading hot jet fuel through the hole building isn't a normal occurance, so that may be why more buildings haven't fallen.

[BakeTheMooCow]

Has anyone heard the theory that Candlejack is really a government agent and whenever you mention his na-

[Pentangeli]

In the early 60's, JFK was pressured into following orders from the heads of U.S oil companies -- to go all out against Soviet Russia. The other "enemy" in America and Europe's fight for the Caspian Sea was Iran, and they were already under thumb since the '53 coup d'état. So the only remaining obstacle was Soviet Russia.

JFK refused to co-operate with the oil companies. Instead he wanted peace talks, putting an end to the arms race, and also wanted to deny Israel nuclear weapons. Of course Soviet Russia would not give up their control of the Caspian Sea. The oil companies wanted, and still want, the Caspian Sea. And force was, at the time, the only way they would get it.

F.B.I informant and mobster Mickey Cohen had setup JFK with Marilyn Monroe. A sex tape was made to blackmail JFK (and also Bobby), but JFK would still not give in. He was eventually murdered by mossad agents -- if any gunmen were caught, they were to be described as gangsters working for Meyer Lansky (another FBI informant and mobster), and obviously Jack Ruby (who killed Oswald) was an underling of Lansky's.

Kennedy's successor, Lyndon B. Johnson, was only too happy to co-operate.

In recent years it looks likely that America and Europe can access the Caspian Sea with a Trans-Caspian Pipeline, bypassing Russia and Iran. Whether or not it will end peacefully, I don't know for sure, though I'm predicting WWIII.

[John Galt]

As much as I'd love to believe that United Flight 93 crashed via heroism(and I really would), I definitely think that it was shot down.

And I also very vividly remember on 9/11 a very brief mention of a fifth plane; but the reporters suddenly ceased in mentioning it.

[Abbie Normal]

It wasn't just a fire that knocked down the twin towers. I mean a plane traveling at 100's of miles an hour, exploding, and spreading hot jet fuel through the hole building isn't a normal occurance, so that may be why more buildings haven't fallen.

Planes travel at an average top speed of something like 250 mph. Larger planes like the ones that hit the towers can travel a top speed up to 300 mph, but neither plane was traveling near those speeds at the time of the crash. Planes that big can't bank at the angles they did to hit the towers at top speeds. That is why planes slow down a hundred miles before they get near their airport they are landing on.

On the day of 9/11 people were standing in the hole the plane made. You can clearly see this. Some jumped. If the fire so was hot as to melt metal, how can people stand the heat to stand in the very spot where the plane crashed?

Jet fuel does not get hot enough to melt metal. It might have burned hot enough to bend metal though, but there is no way it towers would have fallen so perfectly like it did.

Watch the clips please.

[Lotis]

Jet fuel does not get hot enough to melt metal. It might have burned hot enough to bend metal though, but there is no way it towers would have fallen so perfectly like it did.

"Melted" Steel
Claim: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."

source: "Debunking 9/11 Myths", Popular Mechanics.com (http://tinyurl.com/yc5b7k)

[Abbie Normal]

source: "Debunking 9/11 Myths", Popular Mechanics.com (http://tinyurl.com/yc5b7k)

Yeah, I read that already. These are also the people who said we would be flying around with jet packs or flying cars too. There are also lots of articles with the opposite view too.

Common sense to me, boils down I do not believe for one second that both buildings would fall like they did. All the other issues brought up in the clips can not be ignored. It is all way too convenient for me.

[Abbie Normal]

As much as I'd love to believe that United Flight 93 crashed via heroism(and I really would), I definitely think that it was shot down.

And I also very vividly remember on 9/11 a very brief mention of a fifth plane; but the reporters suddenly ceased in mentioning it.

In the clips, Chaney made the slip of tongue saying it was shit down. I never bought the crap that terrorists took over planes with box cutters. I also never bought the fact that we knew who all the 9/11 terrorists were in like 48 hrs. Then knew the history of their lives with a week.

[SpiralEye]

In the clips, Chaney made the slip of tongue saying it was shit down. I never bought the crap that terrorists took over planes with box cutters. I also never bought the fact that we knew who all the 9/11 terrorists were in like 48 hrs. Then knew the history of their lives with a week.

So it's more possible that it was a huge conspiracy within our own government? That's more believable than the government being able to find out who got on what planes?

Trust me man. Go buy a plane ticket, then get on it and start some shit. It's much easier to identify a passenger through the process of elimination than it is to concoct a global para-military conspiracy leading to a new world order.

I'd start to worry about the state of my mind if the the former started to seem more plausible.

Just sayin.

[Abbie Normal]

So it's more possible that it was a huge conspiracy within our own government? That's more believable than the government being able to find out who got on what planes?

Trust me man. Go buy a plane ticket, then get on it and start some shit. It's much easier to identify a passenger through the process of elimination than it is to concoct a global para-military conspiracy leading to a new world order.

I'd start to worry about the state of my mind if the the former started to seem more plausible.

Just sayin.

In a word, yes. But, you don't need to believe. I do.

Did you fly before and after 911? I did. Much harder and longer process now.

What is the political result of 9/11? The Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

[SpiralEye]

In a word, yes. But, you don't need to believe. I do.

Did you fly before and after 911? I did. Much harder and longer process now.

What is the political result of 9/11? The Patriot Act and Homeland Security.

Ok, you need to believe it. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Yes, I flew before and after 9/11. A month and a half before and a month after. And yes, it's more of a process now. Know why? Because they don't want people flying into buildings with them any more. It's a leap in logic, I know. And are you implying that airport security was non-existent before 9/11? Because I remember it quite differently.

And yes, I know that the patriot act and homeland security were a result of what happened. Has knee-jerk incompetence ever entered your mind when it comes to the Bush administration? Bush can barely tie his shoes, for god's sakes. Anyone who thinks people like him can be a part of some well-kept global conspiracy agenda worries me.

You worry me, Abbie. :)

[Abbie Normal]

Ok, you need to believe it. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Yes, I flew before and after 9/11. A month and a half before and a month after. And yes, it's more of a process now. Know why? Because they don't want people flying into buildings with them any more. It's a leap in logic, I know. And are you implying that airport security was non-existent before 9/11? Because I remember it quite differently.

And yes, I know that the patriot act and homeland security were a result of what happened. Has knee-jerk incompetence ever entered your mind when it comes to the Bush administration? Bush can barely tie his shoes, for god's sakes. Anyone who thinks people like him can be a part of some well-kept global conspiracy agenda worries me.

You worry me, Abbie. :)


Flying was not the same before and after 911.

That is sad. You buy the BS that Bush was an idiot. You should be questioning why an idiot can become President. He was a puppet to more powerful people like the VP. The whole concept behind the Patriot Act and Homeland Security was not a knee jerk thing. It was to further take our our freedoms and putting us under tighter control.

Spiral, you need to start questioning things. When it comes to anything political follow the money. Riddle me this, lots of money was made the days after 911 as a result of things that were done before 911. Who were those people? Why hasn't anyone investigated this? Some people (other than Bin Laden) knew this was coming and took action to make sure they made money after it happened. Never fully investigated who were these people.

[QUENTIN]

http://www.alternet.org/story/100688/the_ultimate_9_11_%27truth%27_showdown:_david_ray_ griffin_vs._matt_taibbi/

That's the best read I've found (not for Taibbi's meager, immature, intellectually shallow contributions, but rather Griffin's thorough and measured recitation of fact) on the subject. There's so much crap out there, it's hard to sort through. Griffith, despite his politics, has produced much of the best, most researched and scholarly findings on the subject, including "Debunking 9/11 Debunking" which lays to waste much of the Popular Mechanics counter-arguments.

I'm in the camp of people who want a new and genuine independent investigation because the 9/11 Commission Report contains many verifiably false and contradictory assertions. That doesn't mean I believe in any counter-theory, there hasn't been one proposed by anyone I've seen or heard that is plausible, logically sound, and stands up to intense scrutiny precisely because there has been no independent investigation by an appropriate body, so most "truthers" throw out a bunch of guesswork and speculation, assuming motive means guilt and presuming things just as implausible if not more than the official story because they don't have the facts either and can't discover them on their own. These people give those with more serious, scientific concerns about what happened a bad name and allow the majority to dismiss anyone who doesn't believe the official story as a tinfoil hat wearing loon. Like the JFK Assassination, there is no one certain affirmative theory, but it is undeniable that the Warren Commission Report is filled with BS and there's no way Oswald acted alone. The fact is we still don't really know just what happened, whether some in the government were involved or just grossly incompetent, contradictions could be the result of something sinister or just commonplace CYA saving face, but there are tons of unanswered questions left in the wake of a rushed and sloppy investigation of the government by itself that disregarded information that didn't fit into to the established grander narrative. The fact is, it was a very major attack on American civilians with widespread ramifications, so we deserve to have the whole truth.

I'm not one who subscribes to most of the purely speculative hogwash out there, but there are a few things that are undeniable:

Of the 19 alleged hijackers, at least 5 are still alive and well: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm. This means, at the least, that the government has the wrong guys. Being unable to identify who it was actually responsible for the attacks should be a pretty big deal.

The Commissions and its government sources have changed their story on key facts more than a dozen times since they reported their findings in light of contradictory facts coming to light. They do not, however, offer an explanation or justification of why simple and important facts (like what time key people were notified, where they were, whether fighter jets were near the hijacked planes and able to shoot them down or not) were initially and for years thereafter reported erroneously.

FEMA’s BPAT Report documents steel samples showing rapid oxidation, sulfidation, and intergranular melting, which go a long way toward explain the building's unusual collapse. A liquid eutectic mixture, including sulfur from an unknown source, caused intense corrosion of the steel, gaping holes in wide flange beams, and the thinning of half-inch-thick flanges to almost razor-sharpness in the World Trade Center 7 steel. The New York Times called this “the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.” The government, Scientific American, and official sources do not dispute this, do not claim it was the result of fire of jet fuel, yet is apparently not concerned enough about it to re-investigate or attempt to explain.

Building 7's highly unusual collapse was not investigated by the 9/11 Commission Report. FEMA's investigation concluded "the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue" and NIST's subsequent investigation's final findings (it took 5 years) were still essentially speculative, offering no explanation for the presence of destructive chemicals, finding that jet fuel and falling pieces of the other two towers were not the cause of collapse, and chalking everything up to fire, despite their finding that fires burned out after no more than 20 minutes in any one location and the fact that massive steel structures do not collapse due to fire alone.

Those are simple, verifiable facts. Recognizing them requires no more than becoming aware of them and looking into them yourself. There are other unanswered questions and contradictory facts, but that should be enough to convince anyone that at the least the official story is flawed and there is a lot left we don't know. This doesn't mean some New World Order or Illuminati or Dick Cheney or whatever else was behind it, but it means that the 9/11 Commission Report in and of itself is a fallacious conspiracy theory and we don't yet know the whole story, which we should demand considering its importance.

I don't think those who believe the official story are "kool-aid drinkers" or anything of the sort, I just think they haven't really looked into it for themselves or were quickly dissuaded by all the crap out there. The mainstream media is lazy and corporate run, so it has little interest in taking the issue seriously too, leading to a widespread sense of derision for any suggestion that the Commission Report has major flaws and gaps in logic. Despite this, 45% of Americans want a reinvestigation of the attacks and 42% believe there was some degree of government cover-up involved (http://www.zogby.com/features/features.cfm?ID=231), so it's also hardly a fringist view.

As for other "conspiracy theories" I believe, I think the findings of the Church Committee were just the tip of the iceberg and that programs like COINTELPRO and other covert government surveillance, harassment, intervention, assassination, control, and counter-democratic domestic activities by intelligence agencies continues today, though I don't really consider that a conspiracy so much as common sense.

[Lotis]

You buy the BS that Bush was an idiot. You should be questioning why an idiot can become President. He was a puppet to more powerful people like the VP.

Though Bush being a puppet for his daddy's cronies does not not make him an idiot. Nor does being an idiot mean he was without balls, his level of incompetency can only be achieved by being either an aberration of nature or, more the likely, the dangerous combination of ignorance and brass balls. "Where fools rush in" ... Bush led the way.

[Abbie Normal]

Though Bush being a puppet for his daddy's cronies does not not make him an idiot. Nor does being an idiot mean he was without balls, his level of incompetency can only be achieved by being either an aberration of nature or, more the likely, the dangerous combination of ignorance and brass balls. "Where fools rush in" ... Bush led the way.

Well put. I giggled.

[SpiralEye]

Flying was not the same before and after 911.

That is sad. You buy the BS that Bush was an idiot. You should be questioning why an idiot can become President. He was a puppet to more powerful people like the VP. The whole concept behind the Patriot Act and Homeland Security was not a knee jerk thing. It was to further take our our freedoms and putting us under tighter control.

Spiral, you need to start questioning things. When it comes to anything political follow the money. Riddle me this, lots of money was made the days after 911 as a result of things that were done before 911. Who were those people? Why hasn't anyone investigated this? Some people (other than Bin Laden) knew this was coming and took action to make sure they made money after it happened. Never fully investigated who were these people.

I know flying wasn't the same before and after. Already said that. It's tighter security. Again, to keep more people from trying to do bad things with planes. If you are trying to make some other point about how it's different now, then make it.

And no, I don't buy ant BS about Bush being an idiot. It doesn't need to be sold to me. He's an idiot. Are you saying he's actually a super-genius in hiding? Because that's completely asinine. And as to how an idiot can become President...if you don't understand that it can, does, and will happen again, then you're too far gone to have a rational debate anyway.

Yes, the patriot act and homeland security further limit our rights and freedoms. But your view is that 9/11 was a a staged event to enact those programs. That's what I disagree with completely. I don't buy that the effect is actually the cause. Our government is incompetent at the highest levels.

I do question things. Everything. No, I don't believe we know the whole 9/11 story. But that doesn't make it a conspiracy.

[QUENTIN]

I do question things. Everything. No, I don't believe we know the whole 9/11 story. But that doesn't make it a conspiracy.

Actually, by definition it is regardless of who did it or what happened unless you think only one person was responsible for everything. This is one of those misnomers that damage the credibility of legitimate arguments.

A conspiracy is merely an agreement between two or more people to commit a crime. Whether the 19 hijackers alleged by the government to be responsible (at least 5 of whom are still alive and leading normal lives, have been interviewed by reputable news agencies and are not dead in a plane crash) are responsible or any other proposed or unknown possibility, it is a conspiracy.

[Abbie Normal]

And no, I don't buy ant BS about Bush being an idiot. It doesn't need to be sold to me. He's an idiot. Are you saying he's actually a super-genius in hiding? Because that's completely asinine. And as to how an idiot can become President...if you don't understand that it can, does, and will happen again, then you're too far gone to have a rational debate anyway.

Yes, the patriot act and homeland security further limit our rights and freedoms. But your view is that 9/11 was a a staged event to enact those programs. That's what I disagree with completely. I don't buy that the effect is actually the cause. Our government is incompetent at the highest levels.

I do question things. Everything. No, I don't believe we know the whole 9/11 story. But that doesn't make it a conspiracy.

Bush is a puppet of smarter people. I said that once before.

To find the truth in most matters, all you have to do is find out who profited the most. So who profited the most?

[stefanb]

If you have a lot of spare time, this one is a sort of interesting attempt to link George H.W. Bush to the Kennedy assassination...

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031

[SpiralEye]

Bush is a puppet of smarter people. I said that once before.

To find the truth in most matters, all you have to do is find out who profited the most. So who profited the most?

Who profited the most? Every person in the entire world who hated America, justifiably or not. And the wealth keeps growing as we make bonehead move after bonehead move in regard to the rest of the world.

Question: Why do you (as you previously stated) feel the "need to believe"? Just curious.

[muttly69]

If you have a lot of spare time, this one is a sort of interesting attempt to link George H.W. Bush to the Kennedy assassination...

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031

this is one of the best jfk doc ever made. I saw it last year and was blown away. a must see if you have an hour and a half to spend.

[Abbie Normal]

Who profited the most? Every person in the entire world who hated America, justifiably or not. And the wealth keeps growing as we make bonehead move after bonehead move in regard to the rest of the world.

Question: Why do you (as you previously stated) feel the "need to believe"? Just curious.

How about a real monetary answer now?

To answer your question: watch all the clips from the link I had previously provided and you have some of your answers.

[Vong]

This video alone is enough to question the official 9/11 report.
Downward Acceleration of the North Tower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2y50Wyys4)

I don't buy into any conspiracy theory surrounding 9/11 (ie. Bush using 9/11 as a springboard into global domination...intriguing, but far-fetched), but I, like so many others, cannot accept anything from the 9/11 report.

[Silverload]

Subject: The Moon Landing

The Theory: It never happened

The Evidence:

- The Shuttle left no imprint when taking off

- The Flag waves despite no air on the moon

- Many photo's appear to be doctored

- There were many deaths of key detractors of NASA and the Apollo Missions

-More on the theory http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Do I Believe It?

I think we landed, I think weird stuff goes out in space, though I do think Nasa could have doctored photos, not to cover up a hoax, but to make them more "sexy".

You Got Any?
What about this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20090717/sc_space/nasaerasedfirstmoonwalktapesbutrestorescopies

I'm not saying that I believe this conspiracy, but NASA claiming to have lost the master footage seems fishy as hell. So you make history by landing on the moon and then you record over all the master footage of this historic landing? Seriously!? NASA can send people to the moon, but can't afford extra video tape? I would like to think that rocket scientists couldn't be this stupid.

[Abbie Normal]

Do people who doubt the moon landing doubt all moon landings or just the first one?

[Abbie Normal]

This video alone is enough to question the official 9/11 report.
Downward Acceleration of the North Tower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2y50Wyys4)

I don't buy into any conspiracy theory surrounding 9/11 (ie. Bush using 9/11 as a springboard into global domination...intriguing, but far-fetched), but I, like so many others, cannot accept anything from the 9/11 report.

I am sorry. What are you trying to say? Seems like a mixed message.

According to the clip, the "block" could not have fallen at near free fall speed and destroy the rest of the building unless something happened below. But then you say you don't buy any conspiracy. Then what or who did something to the bottom of the tower to make it fall like it did?


BTW Wells and Halladay to the Yanks for Phil Hughes and a couple other B level prospects?

[Lotis]

Do people who doubt the moon landing doubt all moon landings or just the first one?

Good question. What about space programs in general? Sputnik? What about Mir and Int'l space stations?

[Vong]

I am sorry. What are you trying to say? Seems like a mixed message.

According to the clip, the "block" could not have fallen at near free fall speed and destroy the rest of the building unless something happened below. But then you say you don't buy any conspiracy. Then what or who did something to the bottom of the tower to make it fall like it did?

What I'm saying is I believe in the science that something did happen below the top section of the tower to make it fall at free-fall speed and in a direct motion. The most likely explanation being planned explosive charges. But, I will not speculate as to who did it. There are dozens of culprits that had a motive to carry this out and easily blame it on "al-Qaeda". But jumping to conclusions as to who did it is careless without a proper investigation.

[Vong]

BTW Wells and Halladay to the Yanks for Phil Hughes and a couple other B level prospects?

Hm, maybe. You can take Wells but we can't get rid of Halladay. :rolleyes:

[Abbie Normal]

What I'm saying is I believe in the science that something did happen below the top section of the tower to make it fall at free-fall speed and in a direct motion. The most likely explanation being planned explosive charges. But, I will not speculate as to who did it. There are dozens of culprits that had a motive to carry this out and easily blame it on "al-Qaeda". But jumping to conclusions as to who did it is careless without a proper investigation.

OK. I respect your thoughts. Is it fair to say that some people very high up the Fed Govt food chain could be considered suspect?

Hm, maybe. You can take Wells but we can't get rid of Halladay. :rolleyes:

Gee thanks.

[APzombie]

If you have a lot of spare time, this one is a sort of interesting attempt to link George H.W. Bush to the Kennedy assassination...

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031

I really hate shit like this. Granted they account for all the logical bullshit written in the warren commission but they use it as a spring board for a 9/11 conspiracy.

I'm not discrediting Bush Sr.'s involvement in the C.I.A. before he was it's head, thats a different argument, but what fucking irks me is how so many conspiracy theorists use the proof and validity of one conspiracy as a legitimate argument that their other theories must also be correct. "let me show you how a magic bullet is impossible, i didn't figure this out myself, but i'm spreading the word... believe me? good. Then you better believe what else i tell you."

JFK's assassination is covered in lies. There is a legitimate conspiracy there. Wether or not it's a greater evil or simply the government covering up the possibility that even they don't know what the hell happened or who the other shooter was is besides the point. Acknowledging that doesn't give your assumptions on 9/11, Roswell or The Alaskin Blob more validity. The 9/11 Commission Report is full of holes, yes, but spring boarding them to correspond to wild theories really discredits the holes and everything else that holds weight with them.

I wonder if the lies regarding JFK would have been more acknowledged if people didn't always link it to bullshit theories, same with the holes in The Commission Report. It doesn't help that shit like 'loose change' gets the most attention with the public, a film school reject who legitimately believed that the 747's shot missiles mile-seconds before impact in his first edit. After that everything he says, valid or not, will be taken with a pound of salt.

[Preston_79]

The 9/11 conspiracy is an interesting one, but the Popular Mechanic article disproves much of it.

Even after watching the conspiracy videos and reading the different theories out there, common sense makes me tap the brakes before I start accusing those in our own government of pulling something off of this magnitude and keeping it a secret. Yea...not buying it.

I also do believe we went to the moon. My biggest question is why they enormous gap, why don't we make trips there all the time? Some say because there's nothing there worth looking at, but I don't believe that. We should have a moon base up there already. I mean why the hell not?

[Tweek]

About the moon landing: If we were out to fake it, there sure was a lot of overkill. It wasn't the only reported moon landing... We stopped at Apollo 17, if I remember correctly.

[Abbie Normal]

JFK's assassination is covered in lies. There is a legitimate conspiracy there. Wether or not it's a greater evil or simply the government covering up the possibility that even they don't know what the hell happened or who the other shooter was is besides the point. Acknowledging that doesn't give your assumptions on 9/11, Roswell or The Alaskin Blob more validity. The 9/11 Commission Report is full of holes, yes, but spring boarding them to correspond to wild theories really discredits the holes and everything else that holds weight with them.

I am not sure if you know what the CIA has done over the course of their history, but their job was do anything and everything to get their objectives done aboard and done secretly. With the history they have I don't know why you can't even conceive that there are people in the US gov't that are capable of killing JFK or 911 and get away with it.

[Abbie Normal]

The 9/11 conspiracy is an interesting one, but the Popular Mechanic article disproves much of it.

There are articles in other magazines that say they can prove smoking is good for you. Please see above for the same question.

[Preston_79]

There are articles in other magazines that say they can prove smoking is good for you. Please see above for the same question.

and I'll read those supposed articles and have a good laugh.


I'm aware that there are different opinions out there. Like I stated, I've watched the videos and read articles that believe in the conspiracy of 9/11. I'll take Popular Mechanic over some crack pot opinion any day though. A government responsible for bringing down the twin towers in not inconceivable, just totally unlikely by any stretch of the imagination. I'm totally open to hearing more theories I just haven't heard one that makes any sense when trying to pin this on our own government.

[stefanb]

I really hate shit like this. Granted they account for all the logical bullshit written in the warren commission but they use it as a spring board for a 9/11 conspiracy.

I didn't make it, or even say I believe it, or that I believe anything it springboards towards. I just found it very interesting.

I've seen supposed JFK autopsy photos that CLEARLY show the back of his head still in tact, from what I could see. Not sure what to make of that.

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/kennedy-back.jpg

...but then you see something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPXzX1DtJE

...so who's credible? Certainly draws a lot of neat-o circumstantial evidence (or do I mean "accusations"???) to G.H.W.Bush.

As for 9/11... I think the Loose Change people have gone WAY WAAY WAAAAAAAY too far WAY WAAY WAAAAAY too many times to be a credible source of anything other than good discussion material. That said, I saw video of Building #7 collapsing as over 80 steel box-columns appeared to go out absolutely simultaneously. I'm not laying an accusation against ANYONE, and I'm not blaming the gov't, the CIA, Israeli intelligence, terrorists, or ANYONE ELSE... I'm just saying over 80 steel box-columns don't give out all at the same time very often and someone needs to give me a better explanation before I swallow the official story either. Confused, but knowing for certain the whole truth has yet to be told.

Moon Landing... NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, launched on June 18th, 2009 has (according to wikipedia):

A new set of images published by NASA in July 2009, taken by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) mission, show lunar landers (including that of Apollo 11) standing on the surface, science experiments and, in one case, astronaut footprints in a line between the Apollo 14 lander and a nearby science experiment. These images are the most effective proof to date that the "landing hoax" theory is not grounded in fact.[5]

[5] "NASA's LRO Spacecraft Gets its First Look at Apollo Landing Sites" (website). LRO pages. NASA. July 2009. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/main/index.html. Retrieved on 2007-07-18. "NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, or LRO, has returned its first imagery of the Apollo moon landing sites. The pictures show the Apollo missions' lunar module descent stages sitting on the moon's surface, as long shadows from a low sun angle make the modules' locations evident."

I think that ends the intelligent discussion on the moon landings, doesn't it?

The Death Star... WAS CLEARLY AN INSIDE JOB!

READ:
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/280207_uncomfortable_death_star.html

As per point #7: Why has their been no investigation into evidence that the droids who provided the rebels with the Death Star plans were once owned by none other than Lord Vader himself, and were found, conveniently, by the pilot who destroyed the Death Star, and who is also believed to be Lord Vader’s son? Evidence also shows that the droids were brought to one Ben Kenobi, who, records indicate, was Darth Vader’s teacher many years earlier! Are all these personal connections between the conspirators and a key figure in the Imperial government supposed to be coincidences?

OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE! ;)

[john_rambo]

I personally think Lee Harvey Oswald was tricked into the assassination by the Mafia, but the Mafia controlled many government people as well so that isn't saying there coulda been some help from people who didn't like JFK. I have a DVD of a Mafia Documentary miniseries and one of them was dedicated to the Mafia's involvement. It was very interesting.

[Abbie Normal]

A government responsible for bringing down the twin towers in not inconceivable, just totally unlikely by any stretch of the imagination.

That is cool. One does not need to believe the 911 conspiracy, but one should be able to be open minded enough to conceive the government could be behind it.


For me, there were a whole bunch of people in America who benefited from 911 way too much for my taste.

[countchocula]

It's so fucking pompous and arrogant to claim to know exactly what happened on September 11, 2001. You can theorize all you want, but don't fucking talk down to someone for not buying into a conspiracy theory.

[BlownCamaro]

It's so fucking pompous and arrogant to claim to know exactly what happened on September 11, 2001. You can theorize all you want, but don't fucking talk down to someone for not buying into a conspiracy theory.



Yea. I have always found that having a douche attitude while trying to explain your "theory" is a bad way to go about it. Not only does it make you seem smug but it makes any valid points you would have made ....well pointless.

If you have a theory fine, believe it all you want and try to prove it but do not shit on others who do not believe your ideas because that is all they are, ideas. No proof to back them.

[Vong]

The thing that really pisses me off is how insulting others can be with regards to hearing others opinions on conspiracy "theories". So what if someone believes the moon landing was fake; so what if someone believes JFK was shot from the grassy knoll; and so what if someone believes the Ameircan government planned the attacks on 9/11. If people have reasonable and sound proof to back their claims up, who are we to say they are wrong. And if you do say they are wrong, provide equal or contradicting evidence to support your claim. Don't just insult them for believing in the conspiracy.

I remember in the politics forum I got flak from others for believing in the 9/11 Truth Movement. It sucks when you're put on the spot and told (basically) that you're an idiot.

[Abbie Normal]

I just want to ask if I have been a dick to anyone's opinion on this subject (not TF2). If I have I apologize. I did not mean to offend anyone's opinion and have tried to be respectful. If you are not speaking about me then................I hate it when those people do that. :)

[APzombie]

I didn't make it, or even say I believe it, or that I believe anything it springboards towards. I just found it very interesting

Apologies if what i said came off as a personal attack. You're absolutely right, it is a very interesting documentary (i was glued to the screen for it's entirety) and it at least does one thing well; jump start a discussion.

I think the first half of the documentary successfully establishes the lies and cover ups regarding Kennedy's murder, i just think the way they use that as proof of how "The Bushes hazing ritual into a nazi cult is to murder a Kennedy" to be, frankly, outlandish.

I'm not being sarcastic either, that's exactly their theory. I am interested in digging deeper into Bush Sr.'s role in the C.I.A. as well as his numerous questionable political relationships, but to cap off compelling information with a slogan that basically says "Think about it... this is why Bush killed R.F.K. and orchestrated 9/11!" is purely for sensational partisan bullshit.

Certain conspiracies like the in's and out's of the orchestrated 9/11 attacks and even more so Kennedy's assassination do not benefit in convincing people with outlandish theories. That was my argument in my previous post. There are serious issues with what the government tells us concerning both events, but these issues won't be regarded as anything outside of a pulp x-files episode if those who attempt to make it more public throw in the "WHO?" instead of just the "HOW?" It also doesn't help that in the world of conspiracy theories, whoever shouts loudest gets the attention.

[APzombie]

I just want to ask if I have been a dick to anyone's opinion on this subject (not TF2). If I have I apologize. I did not mean to offend anyone's opinion and have tried to be respectful. If you are not speaking about me then................I hate it when those people do that. :)

i know we've had cinematic and conspiratorial bouts but in my opinion (at least regarding me) you've been fair.

[QUENTIN]

I don't buy into any conspiracy theory surrounding 9/11, but I, like so many others, cannot accept anything from the 9/11 report.

Exactly. I find it intellectually disingenuous to not buy the official story because it has so many holes, gaps in logic, suppressed and dismissed critical information, and ultimately is literally impossible...then buy hook, line, and sinker into some alternate theory with just as many problems on every front.

Until a rigorous and legitimate full-scale investigation is conducted, it is extremely unlikely we can know with any reasonable degree of certainty what actually happened.

What I'm saying is I believe in the science that something did happen below the top section of the tower to make it fall at free-fall speed and in a direct motion. The most likely explanation being planned explosive charges. But, I will not speculate as to who did it. There are dozens of culprits that had a motive to carry this out and easily blame it on "al-Qaeda". But jumping to conclusions as to who did it is careless without a proper investigation.

Yup. Motive does not prove action. Did the Bush Administration benefit enormously from 9/11 in its aims? Sure. Does that mean potentially that some of its members were responsible? Sure. Does that mean they did it? Absolutely not. We have lots of circumstantial evidence that indicates some people may be involved, but the only hard evidence is that what the official Commission Report says happened couldn't have happened, not specifically what did. Everything else is just speculation, educated guesswork perhaps, but guesswork nonetheless.


I wonder if the lies regarding JFK would have been more acknowledged if people didn't always link it to bullshit theories, same with the holes in The Commission Report. It doesn't help that shit like 'loose change' gets the most attention with the public, a film school reject who legitimately believed that the 747's shot missiles mile-seconds before impact in his first edit. After that everything he says, valid or not, will be taken with a pound of salt.

There is a plausible theory that, as with the contemporaneous COINTELPRO program where government agents pretended to be political dissidents and anti-war activists to do and say things that would discredit the movement, the CIA or other intelligence agencies propagated false and silly conspiracy theories about JFK's assassination so that people would dismiss anyone who doubted the official, now recognized by Congress as false, Warren Commission. There's no smoking gun, so this too is just a theory with circumstantial evidence, but either way with the JFK Assassination and the 9/11 Attacks, I agree that whether it is planted misinformation or genuine crackpots or a combination of both, one of the foremost obstacles in discovering what really happened is all the misinformation and totally inaccurate alternate theories out there.

Loose Change is a prime example of how a substantial portion of the average citizenry aware of the 9/11 truth movement was introduced to alternate theories. And while it includes some relevant contradictions, its motive was to gain notoriety for the subpar filmmaker rather than get to the bottom of things (he clearly just literally made much of his alternative theory up without the slightest regard for truth) and so much of the film is slowed down, zoomed-in footage of a pumpkin where, over ominous music, the narrator repeatedly tries to tell me I'm looking at a cantaloupe. No wonder so many people dismiss outright any suggestion that the official story is not possible, if their primary experience with the truth movement is crap like that.

The 9/11 conspiracy is an interesting one, but the Popular Mechanic article disproves much of it.

"Debunking 9/11 Debunking" by David Ray Griffin categorically disproves those elements of the Popular Mechanics "debunking" that are vital to demonstrating that the official story is impossible and that the towers (particularly building 7) came down due to fire and yet the metal was covered in remnants of chemicals used to bring down buildings. It is easy to disprove, as Popular Mechanics successfully did, that a missile rather than plane hit the Pentagon for instance. But that fire alone brought down WTC7 or that Hani Hanjour the inexperienced amateur executed precision maneuvers that most professional pilots cannot or that the government's account of such critical information as when and where Cheney was informed of the crashes, when NORAD was informed and what their response was, whether or not fighter planes were near the hijacked commercial craft and capable of shooting them down, and more has changed repeatedly since 2001 anytime contradictory information comes to light (without explaining why first the information was reported erroneously), how the fact that several of the people the government to this day claims were the terrorists who took over the planes are manifestly still alive and living in the Middle East, and other issues that discredit the official story, Popular Mechanics cannot and did not debunk.



Even after watching the conspiracy videos and reading the different theories out there, common sense makes me tap the brakes before I start accusing those in our own government of pulling something off of this magnitude and keeping it a secret. Yea...not buying it.


Again, I agree. The simple recognition of the incontrovertible fact that much of what the 9/11 Commission Report claims is verifiably false, and that it intentionally excluded key information it was aware of when it did not fit in with the overarching official narrative does not and should not result in an acceptance of any alternate theory or accusation. As APZombie said when speaking of the JFK video, just because you can prove to me X did not happen doesn't mean I should listen when you tell me Y did. There has yet to be a proposed theory that even comes close to standing up to the intellectual scrutiny and scientific rigor required, this includes the 9/11 Commission Report's findings and all subsequent alternative theories. We simply cannot know what happened on guesswork and speculation rather than investigation that includes subpoena power and addresses all relevant questions.


That is cool. One does not need to believe the 911 conspiracy, but one should be able to be open minded enough to conceive the government could be behind it.


For me, there were a whole bunch of people in America who benefited from 911 way too much for my taste.

I agree, dismissing the idea that the government could be behind it is naive, but jumping to the conclusion that those who benefited are necessarily responsible is also highly presumptuous.

It's so fucking pompous and arrogant to claim to know exactly what happened on September 11, 2001. You can theorize all you want, but don't fucking talk down to someone for not buying into a conspiracy theory.

And that really sums it all up. It is all but impossible to look at all the relevant facts and come to the reasonable conclusion that the 9/11 Commission Report and official story are a full and accurate accounting of the truth, but it is also nearly impossible to piece together a patchwork of disparate and often contradictory information and come up with a reasonable alternate account of what actually happened. For anyone to presume they know what actually happened is very arrogant. With the information available, we simply cannot know. That's the goal of those serious individuals in the truth movement, to get a proper investigation into what occurred, not to pretend they already know it.

[Jon Lyrik]

I believe JFK was shot by a Bigfoot at the behest of Elvis Presley and a tutu-wearing J. Edgar Hoover. Also, Obama is a hologram beamed down from a satellite funded with Jew gold by the Mole People.

[QUENTIN]

I believe JFK was shot by a Bigfoot at the behest of Elvis Presley and a tutu-wearing J. Edgar Hoover. Also, Obama is a hologram beamed down from a satellite funded with Jew gold by the Mole People.

*AHEM*, a Muslim socialist Kenya-originating hologram beamed down from a satellite funded with Jew gold by the Mole People. But you were close... though that still doesn't explain the connection to the RAND Corporation, Bigfoot's past with the Illuminati and Freemasons, or what Biggie and Tupac have to do with all of it. No sir, I say you're onto something but you've still got holes to fill.

[countchocula]

I wasn't referring to any one schmoe. A few posts were acerbic, which I didn't care for. I do find the 9/11 theories themselves to be somewhat insulting, as it's disrespectful to the loved ones of those who died that day. If my wife had jumped from one of the towers and someone came up to me spouting off on these theories, I would clock them.

[Abbie Normal]

I wasn't referring to any one schmoe. A few posts were acerbic, which I didn't care for. I do find the 9/11 theories themselves to be somewhat insulting, as it's disrespectful to the loved ones of those who died that day. If my wife had jumped from one of the towers and someone came up to me spouting off on these theories, I would clock them.

But what if the conspiracy was true? Wouldn't you want the real bad guys to be brought the justice for the death of your wife? As a person from the area and although I did not directly know anyone who died that day, I know lots of people who lived through it as they worked in the buildings and they knew lots of people who died and most of them would like to see that the guilty (the terrorists or whoever was behind it) brought to justice.


I would like to hear some comments who live outside the USA. There media (like the BBC) is quite different. To many countries the USA is not this nice, friendly place. To many countries our leadership throughout the years are nothing, but two faced liars and have done harm to places throughout the world.

I remember Iran Contra arms deal. There were millions of Americans who never thought the government would do that and then lie about it and then put all the blame on Olie North. Our government is capable of a lot more than we know about. Some good, some bad.

[echo_bravo]

The thing that really pisses me off is how insulting others can be with regards to hearing others opinions on conspiracy "theories". So what if someone believes the moon landing was fake; so what if someone believes JFK was shot from the grassy knoll; and so what if someone believes the Ameircan government planned the attacks on 9/11. If people have reasonable and sound proof to back their claims up, who are we to say they are wrong. And if you do say they are wrong, provide equal or contradicting evidence to support your claim. Don't just insult them for believing in the conspiracy.

I remember in the politics forum I got flak from others for believing in the 9/11 Truth Movement. It sucks when you're put on the spot and told (basically) that you're an idiot.

Hmm in that case, what if someone said the Holocaust never actually happened? That wouldnt piss you off?

[Abbie Normal]

Hmm in that case, what if someone said the Holocaust never actually happened? That wouldnt piss you off?

That pisses me off and I am not Jewish.

[QUENTIN]

I wasn't referring to any one schmoe. A few posts were acerbic, which I didn't care for. I do find the 9/11 theories themselves to be somewhat insulting, as it's disrespectful to the loved ones of those who died that day. If my wife had jumped from one of the towers and someone came up to me spouting off on these theories, I would clock them.

This doesn't make any sense, count. It's disrespectful to lie to victim's families, not to try to find out what actually happened to them and who is responsible. If someone told you her death was faked, sure, but that's not what we're talking about. Very, very few people doubt that those killed were innocent people who died in an attack. One of the leading, most respected groups pressing for re-investigation is 9/11 Victim's Families for Truth. When I say it is impossible that the official story is what actually happened, I'm not expressing my opinion, there are several assertions in the Commission Report that are provably false, i.e. not true. It literally requires ignoring pieces of vital fact central to the official narrative to accept the story and avoid cognitive dissonance. What the government says happened is not what happened, who the government says did it could not have done it (this doesn't mean it wasn't al-Qaeda or the government was in on it, but the fact remains), so I think it's more disrespectful to keep victim's families in the dark or feed them pablum then it is to demand a full accounting of how and by whom they were killed.

This to me is like saying it's disrespectful to Nicole Simpson and Ron Brown to suggest that O.J. killed them even though he was acquitted.

Hmm in that case, what if someone said the Holocaust never actually happened? That wouldnt piss you off?

Yes. There is a major difference. There are mountains of incontrovertible evidence demonstrating precisely what happened at the Holocaust, detailed firsthand accounts by hundreds of perpetrators including photographs, video, journals, meticulous records, etc and thousands of firsthand accounts of survivors. None of this information contradicts itself or other documents. All of it points to one clear conclusion, there are no major inconsistencies. The Holocaust did happen, we know more or less just how it happened, and to deny that is to ignore or dismiss the ample facts and evidence available and logic itself.

These couldn't be more separate and different events because accepting that 9/11 did happen just as the Commission says it did requires ignoring and dismissing those same things it would take to deny the history of the Holocaust, not to accept it. They're not remotely equivalent or comparable.

[countchocula]

I was merely playing a hypothetical scenario in my head. Say, for instance, you're talking to a stranger and tell him that your wife died on 9/11. He chooses to respond by saying, "Y'know, 9/11 was staged." It's like hearing of a missing child and saying to the parents, "Y'know, there have been a lot of alien abductions around here. Just sayin'!"

Just forget I said anything. I don't feel like typing.

[QUENTIN]

I was merely playing a hypothetical scenario in my head. Say, for instance, you're talking to a stranger and tell him that your wife died on 9/11. He chooses to respond by saying, "Y'know, 9/11 was staged." It's like hearing of a missing child and saying to the parents, "Y'know, there have been a lot of alien abductions around here. Just sayin'!"

Just forget I said anything. I don't feel like typing.

Fair enough, I think I know what you're saying, especially if you're referring to those on the order of alien abduction thinking (like the people who think 9/11 was orchestrated by "Jews" or "Freemasons" or lizards) or anyone who would offer theory before sympathy. Those people tick me off too.

Incidentally, and related to this, one of the best films I've seen this year is Luke Meyer and Andrew Neel's "New World Order", a fly-on-the-wall observational look at people who believe in grand, interconnected conspiracies behind everything, be it the Bilderberg group or the Illuminati and features Alex Jones as a central figure. Less about the theories they believe than about the passion and conviction with which they believe them, and how it drives their lives which they devote to spreading their ideas. One of the most fascinating scenes involves a 9/11 Truther handing out pamphlets on the sidewalk getting into an impassioned debate with someone who was at the Pentagon the day it was hit. Both men try in earnest, but they can never reconcile their worldview with what the other says.

[echo_bravo]

Oh I agree Quentin. FTR I believed the Holocaust happened.;)

As for people believing that the American government was behind 9/11, I just wouldnt be able to take someone seriously if they actually believed that. Thats why I have zero respect for Charlie Sheen nowadays.

[APzombie]

all of this talk made me watch JFK again just now. Fucking great movie. One of the only Stone films i can stand.

[Abbie Normal]

all of this talk made me watch JFK again just now. Fucking great movie. One of the only Stone films i can stand.

Platoon? Wall Street?

Since JFK, I have felt the President does not represent the people, but as an agent for business.


"The bigger the lie. The more people will believe it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwoakFvvLIo

[Natty]

I would like to hear some comments who live outside the USA. There media (like the BBC) is quite different. To many countries the USA is not this nice, friendly place. To many countries our leadership throughout the years are nothing, but two faced liars and have done harm to places throughout the world.

I live in the UK. There are as many people who believe the conspiracies over here as in the US (well...the ratio).

We didn't like Bush but we are happy with Obama, I think that we do see America as being responsible for a lot of shit though, just like many actual Americans do.

[APzombie]

Platoon? Wall Street?

Funnily enough Wall Street is one of the other movies of his i can stand though i don't think it's great. Platoon has moments, then gets ridiculous. Salvador and Talk Radio are watchable. His movies are the cinematic equivalent of being yelled at for two hours.

[SchizoidManiac]

9/11 is a very potent subject for me, and I live in LA...

on a much lighter note, have you guys heard of the one about the replacement Paul McCartney, the many who believe it, its pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlQHoelGzbM&feature=PlayList&p=482CCDCB701F424F&index=0

...its pretty stupid too, but entertaining.

[Vong]

on a much lighter note, have you guys heard of the one about the replacement Paul McCartney, the many who believe it, its pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlQHoelGzbM&feature=PlayList&p=482CCDCB701F424F&index=0

...its pretty stupid too, but entertaining.

I remember hearing about this like 12 years ago in elementary school. Apparently the Sgt. Pepper's Album is chalk full of evidence showing how the real Paul McCartney is dead.

[SchizoidManiac]

Yeah, its pretty funny

esp. the ones who were like "I didnt believe it until I found this,"
or "heard this,"

[QUENTIN]

Not so much a theory as a conspiracy, but The Family is getting more attention now thanks to Sanford and Ensign banging their mistresses in its Congressional dorm/chapel and it's some truly crazy shit that makes a lot of sense in light of how poorly run the Western world is:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/rdroundtable/525/rdroundtable%3A_republican_scandals_drag_secretive _%E2%80%9Cfamily%E2%80%9D_into_the_big_time/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_(Christian_political_organization)

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217544261&sr=8-1

"The Family is a secretive network founded in 1935 and since known by several names, including The Fellowship, The Fellowship Foundation, National Fellowship Council, Fellowship House, The International Foundation, National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, and the National Leadership Council. It is an international movement that claims to be centered on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as the common ground across all religious and political divisions.[1]

The Family, led by Doug Coe, is best known for organizing the annual National Prayer Breakfast, at which every President since President Dwight D. Eisenhower, including President Barack Obama in 2009, has spoken.[2][3][4]

The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God’s plan. The Family represents "Jesus plus nothing," as its leader, Doug Coe, puts it, the "totalitarianism of God," in the words of an early Family leader, a vision that encompasses not just social issues but also the kind of free-market fundamentalism that is the real object of devotion for core members and insiders. At the heart of the Family's spiritual advice for its proxies in Congress is the conviction that the market's invisible hand represents the guidance of God, and that God wants his "new chosen" to look out for one another.

The Fellowship is associated with many influential leaders, including several members of the United States Congress, former military officers such as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the heads of humanitarian aid organizations, as well as dictators of third world regimes. According to David Kuo, former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush and Deputy Director of the White House Office of Faith Based and Community Initiatives, "The Fellowship's reach into governments around the world is almost impossible to overstate or even grasp."[5] Core members and associates of the Fellowship deny that the Fellowship exists.[6]

Pentagon officials secretly met at the group's Washington Fellowship House in 1955 to plan a worldwide anti-communism propaganda campaign endorsed by the CIA, documents from the Fellowship archives and the Eisenhower Presidential Library show. Then known as International Christian Leadership, the group financed a film called "Militant Liberty" that was used by the Pentagon abroad.[6]

The group which is linked to many prominent American politicians, primarly conservative Republicans, has been the subject of controversy for its secrecy, involvement in sex scandals, ties to third-world dictators and oppressive regimes, and approving references to Adolf Hitler, terrorist and 9/11 mastermind Osama bin Laden, Cambodian despot Pol Pot, and the Mafia. The Fellowship is built on the "Hitler Concept" based on a covenant among a political avant garde."

[Criminal Rock]

Here's another good article (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/07/21/c_street/index.html) about The Family you might like Quentin

If sexual license was all the Family offered the C Street men, however, that would merely be seedy and self-serving. But Family men are more than hypocritical. They're followers of a political religion that embraces elitism, disdains democracy, and pursues power for its members the better to "advance the Kingdom." They say they're working for Jesus, but their Christ is a power-hungry, inside-the-Beltway savior not many churchgoers would recognize. Sexual peccadilloes aside, the Family acts today like the most powerful lobby in America that isn't registered as a lobby -- and is thus immune from the scrutiny attending the other powerful organizations like Big Pharma and Big Insurance that exert pressure on public policy.

This explains a lot of bullshit that goes on in this country...

[Ayestrain]

I dunno if this counts as a conspiracy theory, or whatever (probably not?), but I've had an intense interest in this story ever since first hearing about it.

The Gorman Ranch, AKA The Skinwalker Ranch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinwalker_Ranch
http://www.aliendave.com/Article_PathoftheSkinwalker_p1.html
http://www.aliendave.com/Article_PathoftheSkinwalker_p2.html

Check it out. Some of the craziest claims or paranormal activity I've ever come across. Is it true? I dunno, but it sounds crazier than anything anybody'd be able to make up.

Had never heard about this but it is indeed some freaky shit. It led me to get Kelleher and Knapp's book "Hunt For The Skinwalker" out of the library, which I'm pretty stoked to get to read!