Is It Impossible For Tim Burton To Not Go Over The Top?

[Hey Man]

I don't know about you, but I don't understand why he feels compelled to make Willy Wonka and The Mad Hatter total freaks. Can he not just make a character look like a human being for the most part? It's almost like Tim Burton tries to add every color in the universe to create these characters that were more effective without the need to look like freaks in past versions.

I know he is trying to be this creative visionary, but he is failing - because he goes over the top when you really don't need to. It's like wait until the world sees what Johnny Depp looks like THIS time. Less is more and this concept seems to go WAY over Tim Burton's head.

[Reigh Kaufman]

Were it not for Ed Wood I would not believe that Tim Burton was anything other than the world's best set-designer.

A source of constant disappontment.

[Brendan M.]

Kinda agree. Personally I'm not the biggest Burton fan in the world but I admire some movies of his, ESPECIALLY Ed Wood and Big Fish.

Big Fish was the film where he finally got away from that whole goth look for a change and told a fairy tale story, only it was really down to Earth in the way that it was essentially a movie about a dying father and his son. There was a good dramatic story to be told even if you did strip the fantasy elements away, which in some scenes it kind of did. The characters themselves existed in the real world and the fairy tale elements were pretty much extensions to who they were beneath the surface.

Ed Wood is also a favorite of mine because even though the characters were strange and sometimes even over the top, they were still treated as if they were real people. The friendship between Bela Lugosi and Ed Wood for me felt very sincere as well.

[adamjohnson]

Its not over the top, its just his style. You dont get anywhere in this business by having no style. Unless you're Brett Ratner.

[Hey Man]

Its not over the top, its just his style. You dont get anywhere in this business by having no style. Unless you're Brett Ratner.

Ya, his style is over the top. He can't just make Johnny Deep look kind of odd - he has to make him look like a total freakshow.

[Shinigami]

I agree with this rant after watching the Alice trailer. It's too excessively creative, and all the excess blends together so nothing seems to stand out. Don't get me wrong, I love Burton. I loved Sweeny Todd and I even had my share of fun with Charlie and his chocolate. But the trailer for Alice definitely felt excessive to me.

[Badbird]

I'd say his most "normal," straight forward, un-Burton film was Planet of the Apes. For the most part it was just a standard Hollywood summer movie.

Maybe that's why it's the only one I've liked since Batman Returns.

[Brendan M.]

I'd say his most "normal," straight forward, un-Burton film was Planet of the Apes. For the most part it was just a standard Hollywood summer movie.

Maybe that's why it's the only one I've liked since Batman Returns.

Really? You didn't like Ed Wood or Big Fish at all?

[zombievictim]

I love Tim Burtons style and hope he sticks to it.

[Abbie Normal]

That is what Tim does. I do not like most of his films and particularly most of the later ones, but one can not deny he has a style and a vision all his own. Some really like his work and some do not. Even though I do not enjoy his work, I appreciate what he brings to his movies.

Does anyone agree with my line of thinking?

[Kevin Smith fan]

Tim Burton became my favorite director at an early age when I noticed that his name appeared before all of my favorite films (Batman, Edward Scissorhands, Beetlejuice, Pee Wee's Big Adventure, etc.). I love his style and although he's turned into some kind of a Hot Topic icon, I still very much appreciate all the work he's done.

But Alice does seem a little odd. I'm not sure if its too over the top, but maybe that its too predictable. If this weren't a Disney film I think it'd be much more interestingly done.

[ericdraven]

Ya, his style is over the top. He can't just make Johnny Deep look kind of odd - he has to make him look like a total freakshow.

Well. The Mad Hatter IS a total freakshow. there is probably very little humanity in him. I mean in the story, he smashes the rabbit's clock to bits and doesn't bat a eyelash when the rabbit is sad about it.

[Hey Man]

Well. The Mad Hatter IS a total freakshow. there is probably very little humanity in him. I mean in the story, he smashes the rabbit's clock to bits and doesn't bat a eyelash when the rabbit is sad about it.

He still looked like a human being - until now.

[ericdraven]

He still looked like a human being - until now.

I personally think it's a different interpretation of a character.

[Hey Man]

I personally think it's a different interpretation of a character.

I personally think it's Tim Burton being Tim Burton - which has proven to not always be a good thing. When Burton/Depp do the next remake, they will take it even further and Willy Wonka/Mad Hatter will look tame in comparison.

[ericdraven]

I personally think it's Tim Burton being Tim Burton - which has proven to not always be a good thing. When Burton/Depp do the next remake, they will take it even further and Willy Wonka/Mad Hatter will look tame in comparison.

I think you have a personal vendetta against Burton and Depp.


Besides, this is like that Heath Ledger as Joker argument before Dark Knight came out, and he blew everyone away. I am not saying that Depp is going to pull off the same kind, but he might do a pretty solid peformance.

[Hey Man]

I think you have a personal vendetta against Burton and Depp.


Besides, this is like that Heath Ledger as Joker argument before Dark Knight came out, and he blew everyone away. I am not saying that Depp is going to pull off the same kind, but he might do a pretty solid peformance.

No, I really like Depp and have liked some of Burton's movies - so you are wrong there.

[Jon Lyrik]

His schtick is getting tired is all. There's just no novelty left in his style, he's exhausted it from every possible angle, even in making it colorful or bright.

[Badbird]

Really? You didn't like Ed Wood or Big Fish at all?

Never saw Ed Wood, but I freaking hated Big Fish.

[fooknasty]

His schtick is getting tired is all. There's just no novelty left in his style, he's exhausted it from every possible angle, even in making it colorful or bright.

Exactly. His style has gotten stale.

Sleepy Hollow is my favorite flick of his, mostly for Depp's performance however.

[Jon Lyrik]

I love Burton, I grew up on his stuff. Batman, Batman Returns, Beetlejuice, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood...but yes, he needs to move on.

[APzombie]

i agree, he hasn't grown cinematically in years. It's getting predictable and ultimately uninteresting.

[echo_bravo]

I love Burton, I grew up on his stuff. Batman, Batman Returns, Beetlejuice, Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood...but yes, he needs to move on.

Yep. I love all those films too (except Batman Returns).

My main problem with Burton's films as of late(Willy Wonka, Planet of Apes, Sweeny Todd), is that they are just "empty".

Edward Scissorhands was so damn good, because I really cared about the main character. Some parts in that film were so damn sad and powerful (yes, I am an emo pussy!;))
I just dont get that connection with his recent films.

[Heisenberg]

So we are sick of a guy being 'too' creative. Jesus how pathetic does an argument get? well it's seemingly getting there.

Burton has his own distinct style, that's what makes who he is. Different to 99% of the directors out there. The only one being close to him is Guillermo Del Toro, yet I don't see these sorts of arguments against him. Del Toro has used the same thing over and over again, and IMO not to as good of an effect as Burton.

Sure, Burton's casting is the most predictable in hollywood, but who cares? not me for one. Cause I know that Burton, Depp and Carter work great together and aslong as he keeps using them and creating wacky,wierd and demented characters I'll be a happy bunny.

[Potzer! 37]

Ya, his style is over the top. He can't just make Johnny Deep look kind of odd - he has to make him look like a total freakshow.
That's not true...but when you tell a story that is about "freaks" as both Wonka and The Hatter are, why not go for the gusto? Just take a look at Ed Wood and Sleepy Hollow if you think Depp can't look like a human in a Burton film...but the thing is, the stories and characters that Burton are drawn too are the outsiders, the "over the top" larger than life characters (going all the way back to Pee-Wee and Beetlejuice) and with Wonka and Alice, these films are about the specific crazy world we are entering: Wonka's shop and freaking WONDERland...it's supposed to be over the top.

[Potzer! 37]

I personally think it's Tim Burton being Tim Burton - which has proven to not always be a good thing. When Burton/Depp do the next remake, they will take it even further and Willy Wonka/Mad Hatter will look tame in comparison.
Well, the next thing is a vampire movie, yes? And what makes vampire stories work is that the other characters don't know he's a vampire. He'll have to look (and act) like a normal, charming person in order to keep their guards down...then again, I've never seen the show it's based on, so I could totally wrong on this front.

Besides, would you expect Tim Burton to NOT be Tim Burton? He tells the stories that keep him interested, just like any other real filmmaker. Dislike the films all you want, but don't question why he does what he does. If me made all these random choices just for the sake of weirdness, or there was no consistancy, or he came across as vapid and empy when talking about his projects I could understand it, but Burton, more than most filmmakers out there today, is making exactly the films he wants, exactly how he wants to make them.

[Potzer! 37]

That is what Tim does. I do not like most of his films and particularly most of the later ones, but one can not deny he has a style and a vision all his own. Some really like his work and some do not. Even though I do not enjoy his work, I appreciate what he brings to his movies.

Does anyone agree with my line of thinking?
Yes

[fooknasty]

So we are sick of a guy being 'too' creative. Jesus how pathetic does an argument get? well it's seemingly getting there.

I don't think we are sick of him being too creative. Burton has slowly been going down hill and, as someone stated above, I don't find myself as emotionally invested in his characters.

Sweeny Todd, Corpse Bride, Charlie, Planet of the Apers, Mars Attacks, etc.

His style is getting very old and predicatble too, and this adds to his creative slide.

[Hey Man]

So we are sick of a guy being 'too' creative. Jesus how pathetic does an argument get? well it's seemingly getting there.

Burton has his own distinct style, that's what makes who he is. Different to 99% of the directors out there. The only one being close to him is Guillermo Del Toro, yet I don't see these sorts of arguments against him. Del Toro has used the same thing over and over again, and IMO not to as good of an effect as Burton.

Sure, Burton's casting is the most predictable in hollywood, but who cares? not me for one. Cause I know that Burton, Depp and Carter work great together and aslong as he keeps using them and creating wacky,wierd and demented characters I'll be a happy bunny.

There is a difference between being creative and becoming a parody of yourself. He has crossed that line.

[Hey Man]

That's not true...but when you tell a story that is about "freaks" as both Wonka and The Hatter are, why not go for the gusto? Just take a look at Ed Wood and Sleepy Hollow if you think Depp can't look like a human in a Burton film...but the thing is, the stories and characters that Burton are drawn too are the outsiders, the "over the top" larger than life characters (going all the way back to Pee-Wee and Beetlejuice) and with Wonka and Alice, these films are about the specific crazy world we are entering: Wonka's shop and freaking WONDERland...it's supposed to be over the top.

Gene Wilder was better than Johnny Depp. End of story. You obviously don't believe in the notion that less is more and that Johnny Depp doesn't have to look like a freak of nature to be effective.

[Heisenberg]

Gene Wilder was better than Johnny Depp. End of story. You obviously don't believe in the notion that less is more and that Johnny Depp doesn't have to look like a freak of nature to be effective.

Tim Burton stayed true to Dahl's vision, It's common knowlegde that Dahl HATED the Gene Wilder incarnation of wonka. His visions was a crazy childish man that could do all he wanted with his money. That's what Burton did. whether you like it or not, Johhny Depp played the real Wonka, Wilder played a watered down stranger.

[fooknasty]

Tim Burton stayed true to Dahl's vision, It's common knowlegde that Dahl HATED the Gene Wilder incarnation of wonka. His visions was a crazy childish man that could do all he wanted with his money. That's what Burton did. whether you like it or not, Johhny Depp played the real Wonka, Wilder played a watered down stranger.

Regardless, Wilder's performance was better than Depp's.

[JumpSpider]

If Dahl's truly despising the Wilder version and fully approving of the Depp version (which we'll never even know for sure that he would) automatically makes the Burton version superior by default, then with all due respect to hell with Dahl's opinions. It's called an adaptation, fucker.

As far as Burton goes, Ed Wood is one of my favorite movies and I like Edward Scissorhands and Beetlejuice a lot, but that about covers it. Oh, and Frankenweenie was ridiculously cute.

[Shinigami]

So we are sick of a guy being 'too' creative. Jesus how pathetic does an argument get? well it's seemingly getting there.

Creative designs and artwork are effects like any other. They can convey substance and meaning, but that doesn't put them above and beyond something like computer generation, which is what we traditionally think of when someone says "effects". A complaint that Burton is becoming excessive with his designs is similar to a complaint that someone is using too much CGI in their movies.

[Hey Man]

Tim Burton stayed true to Dahl's vision, It's common knowlegde that Dahl HATED the Gene Wilder incarnation of wonka. His visions was a crazy childish man that could do all he wanted with his money. That's what Burton did. whether you like it or not, Johhny Depp played the real Wonka, Wilder played a watered down stranger.

I doubt that Dahl had a Michael Jacksonesque vision for Willy Wonka. I think it's safe to say that Willy Wonka would still be human with an actual realistic skin tone.

[bigred760]

I would think "Alice in Wonderland" would be a perfect story for Tim Burton to adapt. It's got nothing but freakish characters, outlandish scenes and situations, and other things that seem like they belong in a Tim Burton movie. And Johnny Depp is best known for playing wild and/or freakish characters. With the exception of Finding Neverland and the recent Public Enemies, all of his characters seem to be weird in one way or another.

I'm not Tim Burton's biggest fan or anything, but I've liked most of his movies. He has a distinct sense of style and imagery in his movies that most directors do not. It seems to have worked for him.

[APzombie]

There is a difference between being creative and becoming a parody of yourself. He has crossed that line.

I agree. I absolutely love Ed Wood, Edward Scissorhands, Sleepy Hollow, his Bat films and Pee Wee's Big Adventure but it is coming to a point where the predictability in his style diffuses the amount i am capable of investing in it. He'll take a well known fable, movie or story and once we know what his material is, the audience familiar with his work could guess 90% of what the finished product would look like.

I think the same thing is happened with Wes Anderson's Darjeeling Limited.

Personally, i feel the growth of a filmmaker's work is very important to how i relate to him/her and their pictures. That's why, for example, i have a lot of love for Scorsese right now (Shutter Island looks completely different from anything he's done before).

[CyclicNightmare]

Alice in Wonderland looks like a clusterfuck. I agree with this rant. Branch out Burton.

[LordSimen]

I'm not sure why I'd want to see a film by Tim Burton that wasn't over the top and cooky. In fact the only film by him that I think doesn't quite fall under that description would Planet of the Apes, which is easily his weakest film besides a tremendous cast who gave some pretty fantastic performances- Especially Tim Roth.

[Heisenberg]

Welcome back LordSimen, and I agree. :)

[Hey Man]

I'm not sure why I'd want to see a film by Tim Burton that wasn't over the top and cooky. In fact the only film by him that I think doesn't quite fall under that description would Planet of the Apes, which is easily his weakest film besides a tremendous cast who gave some pretty fantastic performances- Especially Tim Roth.

Why am I not surprised that you don't view "over the top" just by it's definition as being too much or going too far.

[LordSimen]

Welcome back LordSimen, and I agree. :)

Thank you sir. Glad to see someone in agreement- The Burton love needs to be spread. :D

[Frosty_86]

I'm not sure why I'd want to see a film by Tim Burton that wasn't over the top and cooky. In fact the only film by him that I think doesn't quite fall under that description would Planet of the Apes, which is easily his weakest film besides a tremendous cast who gave some pretty fantastic performances- Especially Tim Roth.

That's why I watch Tim Burton's movies, is because they are weird. I Personally I hated Planet of the Apes and one of the reason's why is because it didn't feel like a Tim Burton movie even the Batman movies felt like Burton movies. Really Planet of the Apes is the only one of his that I dont like, it's been a long time since Ive seen Pee Wee so I cant really talk about that.

Burton's one of my favorite filmmakers because he is so unconventional. Ive never been a huge Alice In Wonderland fan but Im willing to give the movie a shot because its a Burton and Depp movie

LordSimen its good to see you back

[john_rambo]

Tim Burton keeps making his stacks of money and is with Helena Bonham Carter so jokes on all of you.

[corran horn]

That's why I watch Tim Burton's movies, is because they are weird. I Personally I hated Planet of the Apes and one of the reason's why is because it didn't feel like a Tim Burton movie even the Batman movies felt like Burton movies. Really Planet of the Apes is the only one of his that I dont like, it's been a long time since Ive seen Pee Wee so I cant really talk about that.

Burton's one of my favorite filmmakers because he is so unconventional. Ive never been a huge Alice In Wonderland fan but Im willing to give the movie a shot because its a Burton and Depp movie

LordSimen its good to see you back

Hear Hear! I expect a Tim Burton film to over the top. That's why I like him. I'll concede that he went overboard on Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but that had more to do with Depp's appearance than anything else.

Oh, and Sweeney Todd is "empty"? Sorry, I think it's easily Burton's 2nd best film of the 00s (behind Big Fish) and his 2nd best since Ed Wood. I had plenty of emotional investment in the characters (save for Anthony and Joanna), even the bad guys.

[Frosty_86]

Oh, and Sweeney Todd is "empty"? Sorry, I think it's easily Burton's 2nd best film of the 00s (behind Big Fish) and his 2nd best since Ed Wood. I had plenty of emotional investment in the characters (save for Anthony and Joanna), even the bad guys.


I thought Sweeney Todd was fantastic. I do put Sleepy Hollow above it though. Ive got to go back and watch Big Fish again I havent watched it in a while. I think Burton was the only person that couldve pulled it off.

[LordSimen]

Glad to see the Sweeney Todd love! I too find that movie to be fantastic. :D

[gorysnoopy]

I personally think Sweeney Todd is Burton at his best. I LOVE that movie.

I am a total whore for Burton. I know his style and I love it. The only film I didn't care for was Planet of the Apes...as someone pointed out earlier, it didn't have his stamp on it,so to speak. Does he go over the top? I guess to a viewer who is not as enchanted with his work, sure. But for those of us who do love his films, it's just Tim being Tim.

I cannot wait for March.

[Cenopath]

Tim Burton = one of the most overrated directors in Hollywood. With the exception of Batman, Pee Wee's Big Adventure, and Ed Wood, I can't stand anything he's done. When he was more concerned with making a quality film and less concerned with his 'weird, creepy, twisted' aesthetics, the result was those three films. When he was (and still is) putting aesthetics first, the result is the rest of his filmography. Burton's main problem is that the majority of his films are masturbatory goth fodder; they sacrifice substance for style and wind up looking stupid in the end.

[Jig Saw 123]

First of all I don't agree with this rant. Second I don't think Burton is overrated because he is responsible for a lot of childhood icons of the 1980s and 1990s. His early style was always his and currently it seems that he only got more indulged into his own mind not selling out to make a Hollywood film, besides Planet of the Apes. I didn't like Big Fish, but it did still feel like a Burton movie. I didn't love Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but I still liked it to a degree. Sweeney Todd was definitely his best film since Sleepy Hallow and Alice in Wonderland looks gorgeous and outrageous. I think its the perfect place for Burton to unleash his full creativity.

Most will complain about his constant inclusion of his wife and Johnny Depp, but honestly they make Burton's movies better. Depp fits Burton's films like a glove and Carter was always weird so it's only natural that she play in these kinds of films. Also about him getting more into the Hot Topic arena I would say its the opposite, he created Hot Topic.

[Hey Man]

First of all I don't agree with this rant. Second I don't think Burton is overrated because he is responsible for a lot of childhood icons of the 1980s and 1990s. His early style was always his and currently it seems that he only got more indulged into his own mind not selling out to make a Hollywood film, besides Planet of the Apes. I didn't like Big Fish, but it did still feel like a Burton movie. I didn't love Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but I still liked it to a degree. Sweeney Todd was definitely his best film since Sleepy Hallow and Alice in Wonderland looks gorgeous and outrageous. I think its the perfect place for Burton to unleash his full creativity.

Most will complain about his constant inclusion of his wife and Johnny Depp, but honestly they make Burton's movies better. Depp fits Burton's films like a glove and Carter was always weird so it's only natural that she play in these kinds of films. Also about him getting more into the Hot Topic arena I would say its the opposite, he created Hot Topic.

So to you - Willy Wonka and The Mad Hatter should look like total freaks and not remotely like the human beings that the characters actually are?

[LordSimen]

Willy Wonka IS a freak. He's a man-child who spends his life making candy for children and has no remorse when the children are practically killed by the workings of his factory- On top of that the only reason he invites the kids to his damn factory is to hand over the deed to the place so that a CHILD could run his multi-billion dollar industry. The dude's a freak all around and he looked pretty damn human to me in both movies. The dude fuckin' made a RIVER of CHOCOLATE. A RIVER OF CHOCOLATE!

EDIT: Oh, and the Mad Hatter's name is... The Mad Hatter. Not the Sane Metrosexual. He's a fuckin' dude who lives in a place called Wonderland and believes he in fact murdered time itself with his terrible singing voice. He spends every day with his best friend, a Haire, in a non-stop tea party where he just spouts riddles with no real answers and other such nonsense. He's even more of a freak than Wonka is.

[Hey Man]

Willy Wonka IS a freak. He's a man-child who spends his life making candy for children and has no remorse when the children are practically killed by the workings of his factory- On top of that the only reason he invites the kids to his damn factory is to hand over the deed to the place so that a CHILD could run his multi-billion dollar industry. The dude's a freak all around and he looked pretty damn human to me in both movies. The dude fuckin' made a RIVER of CHOCOLATE. A RIVER OF CHOCOLATE!

EDIT: Oh, and the Mad Hatter's name is... The Mad Hatter. Not the Sane Metrosexual. He's a fuckin' dude who lives in a place called Wonderland and believes he in fact murdered time itself with his terrible singing voice. He spends every day with his best friend, a Haire, in a non-stop tea party where he just spouts riddles with no real answers and other such nonsense. He's even more of a freak than Wonka is.

Funny, but the Mad Hatter and Willy Wonka were quite effective in the past without the need for every color in the rainbow.

Look you are simply defending Tim Burton because of Tim Burton. If some other director did Charlie or Alice and they were somewhat less freakish looking, it wouldn't negate all the reasons why you are defending Burton's obvious attempts at trying to shock people.

[LordSimen]

Funny, but the Mad Hatter and Willy Wonka were quite effective in the past without the need for every color in the rainbow.


So, let me get this straight, Tim Burton shouldn't make a Tim Burton movie and instead should make a movie just like everyone else in the past has done them? Sounds boring.


Look you are simply defending Tim Burton because of Tim Burton.

This is funny, because the way I see it you are bashing Burton... Because of Burton. How is that any different then what you are claiming I'm doing?

[Jig Saw 123]

So to you - Willy Wonka and The Mad Hatter should look like total freaks and not remotely like the human beings that the characters actually are?

I agree with what Simen mentioned on both levels of these characters. I don't understand people's hatred towards a character when he's reintroduced in a new way still carrying the similar look to his/her previous incarnations and almost exact same traits and signs of personality and spirit.

Willy Wonka like in the original was weird, his appeal and awkwardness always stood out and caused people to feel uncomfortable around him. When a child is drowning in a river of chocolate he doesn't rush to save or call for help he insist the giant pipe will suck him up and take him into a "processing area" another time is when a girl goes down a garbage hole and could be possibly killed in an incinerator. The man has no care for human life whatsoever and in some occasions not even for his own. Burton simply amplified what was already there and put the nice Burton look to it.

With the Mad Hatter its predictable what type of character he'll be, but its nice to see what Depp and Burton could bring to such a character. Once again the Hatter is literally the craziest person in Wonderland and with him being very colorful, I see no problem whatsoever. He's only been able to be truly captured in animation which still limited his sense of fashion to a degree.

I'm not defending Burton, I'm simply stating what should already be known about the guy. He likes weird stuff, he likes color landscapes and he likes casting the same actress/actor over and over again because he believes they best suit the role for "his" vision.

[john_rambo]

Upcoming Rants:

When will Quentin Tarantino start making Family Friendly movies?

Did Hitchcock ALWAYS have to make suspense filled masterpieces?

Michael Gondry: Is it possible for him to make a "MAINSTREAM" movie?

Ugh, Robert Rodriguez, do you HAVE to be a one man film crew?

Really Sergio Leone? Did You REALLY need to fix an unbroken genre in your westerns?

these should get exciting!

[Silverload]

I always thought that the argument of "Burton needs to move on from making visually stunning films" is fucking ridiculous. Let the artists do what they do best, that's what makes them special. No other filmmaker does what Burton does (and many have tried).

I always look forward to the next Burton film, and I always look forward to what new crazy world he creates with it.

[Heisenberg]

So to you - Willy Wonka and The Mad Hatter should look like total freaks and not remotely like the human beings that the characters actually are?

It's hilarious that you think the Disney animation and the watered down Gene Wilder versions are the RIGHT versions. Fucking HILARIOUS.

Both characters are crazy and demented, please don't go off films that toned them down so they would be successful commercially.

[labialover]

Cameron is amazing at epic sci-fi, should he start doing other work for him to grow? Absolutely not.

Burton does what he does very well. He's not my favorite director but I appreciate what he creates with each of his movies. The only movie of his that I don't really like is Planet of the Apes, and I think that's just because he was doing a big summer blockbuster.

[Raoul Duke]

The thing is: Burton CAN direct a relatively normal movie like Ed Wood with fantastic results. It's an amazing accomplishment that he has such a distinct and instantly recognizable style, few can get to that point. I would just like to see him play it straight again.

[LordSimen]

I love Ed Wood, it's one of my favorite Burton movies ever, but I would hardly call it "playing it straight." He made a biopic on Ed Wood's life... As if it were one of Ed Wood's movies. Black and white, cheesy, over the top, larger-than-life characters with logic that usually doesn't mesh up with reality- I'd say just because he didn't go architectually crazy doesn't mean he didn't go nuts with the film as a whole.

[Brendan M.]

I love Ed Wood, it's one of my favorite Burton movies ever, but I would hardly call it "playing it straight." He made a biopic on Ed Wood's life... As if it were one of Ed Wood's movies. Black and white, cheesy, over the top, larger-than-life characters with logic that usually doesn't mesh up with reality- I'd say just because he didn't go architectually crazy doesn't mean he didn't go nuts with the film as a whole.

I like to think he took characters who were larger than life and treated them as if they were real people. The friendship between Wood and Lugosi felt sincere enough for there to be some sense of reality to it that we can all relate to.

I just wish he would do this more with his other films. For me, the closest he's done to this is Big Fish.

[LordSimen]

I like to think he took characters who were larger than life and treated them as if they were real people. The friendship between Wood and Lugosi felt sincere enough for there to be some sense of reality to it that we can all relate to.

I honestly will never understand this take on the movie. It just makes no sense to me. But no sense arguing it, we all see shit differently.

[Brendan M.]

I honestly will never understand this take on the movie. It just makes no sense to me. But no sense arguing it, we all see shit differently.

Really? I didn't realize people's views on this movie were black and white at all. What's your take on it?

I'll admit the characters are campy for the most part but don't think there anywhere near as grand as say Batman or Edward Scissorhands. But I do agree with you that it was an adaptation of a movie director's life that was meant to be seen as one of his own movies. Only better.

[Monotreme]

Tim Burton is my all-time favourite director, but I have to agree that I was too lazy to read through it all, but suffice it to say that I get the idea that I am in full agreement with LordSimen, that what makes Burton so unique as a director is, well, the Burtonesque quality of his films - I mean, it's no coincidence that he has his own widely used adjective. Besides, Burton has done restrained a few times - both Ed Wood and Big Fish have moments of very down-to-earth and very real human emotional drama, which of course isn't to say that Edward Scissorhands, Sweeney Todd and his other films DON'T have human drama, but those films are indeed over the top. Still, that's what makes his style unique, and that applies both to the visuals and the storytelling.

Fact is that he remains one of if not THE most unique directors working today, who consistently turns out compleltely unique films that are unlike anything any other director is doing or has done, and for that, I salute him and never want him to stop or "not go over the top".

[LordSimen]

Really? I didn't realize people's views on this movie were black and white at all. What's your take on it?


To me the movie felt like he took human characters (because they were real, after all) and then turned them into 1950's film characters, I.E. Over the top and stage-style theatrical. They had human moments, sure, but all his films have just about the same amount of human moments as that film did.

[Brendan M.]

To me the movie felt like he took human characters (because they were real, after all) and then turned them into 1950's film characters, I.E. Over the top and stage-style theatrical. They had human moments, sure, but all his films have just about the same amount of human moments as that film did.


That's what I liked about it better than Tim Burton's other movies. They were exaggerations of real life people where as compared to characters from his other films, they were mostly either live action cartoon characters or pure fantasy which is why I don't have as easy of a time relating to someone like Edward Scissorhands.

[Hey Man]

What most of you seem to ignore is Burton has become a paradoy of himself in that with each movie lately - he feels the need to shock the audience even further just for the hell of it. Regardless if it makes sense or not.

Much like an action director, who had really big explosions with his last action movie - will have to have even bigger explosions with the next movie.

I guarantee you that if Burton had never done Willy Wonka - the Mad Hatter wouldn't look as fucking stupid as he does. But since he did direct Willy Wonka, he can't make the Mad Hatter look any less bizarre and must go over the top. Just you wait for Dark Shadows and see how Burton crosses that line even further.

Burton used to be a visionary, but now he is just like any other director sitting around thinking how he can go "bigger" with the next movie. I am sure the designs for the Mad Hatter started out more normal, but Burton was probably saying "more, more more" to the point that they just melted a box of crayons over a picture of Johnny Depp and Burton was blown away.

[LordSimen]

'Eh... He directed Sweeney Todd in between those two movies you're talking about and Sweeney Todd was toned down in terms of it's look compared to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, so it's pretty much clear that the man is not concerned with shocking the audience or topping his wackiness- He applies the appropriate amount of craziness to whatever the material it is he's directing. Sweeney Todd, to him, was more like a Universal monster movie, so he toned down the colors and practically made it black and white. Alice in Wonderland is a children's fairy tale about a girl who goes to a world that mixes wonder and insanity- Of course it's going to be crazier looking than Sweeney.

[bigred760]

Alice in Wonderland is a children's fairy tale about a girl who goes to a world that mixes wonder and insanity- Of course it's going to be crazier looking than Sweeney.

Not to mention the author of the book is believed to have been an opium user and/or a pedophile. It is a book with a lot of fantastical elements and outlandish themes. Like I said earlier: it should be right up Burton's alley.

[Hey Man]

Not to mention the author of the book is believed to have been an opium user and/or a pedophile. It is a book with a lot of fantastical elements and outlandish themes. Like I said earlier: it should be right up Burton's alley.

But where in all of that does it require Johnny Depp to look like a human pinata?

[bigred760]

But where in all of that does it require Johnny Depp to look like a human pinata?

You'd expect a "human pinata" in such a fantastical setting as Alice's Wonderland.

[Hey Man]

You'd expect a "human pinata" in such a fantastical setting as Alice's Wonderland.

I expect some real vision from Burton - not the colorings of a child.

[bigred760]

I expect some real vision from Burton - not the colorings of a child.

Then don't watch his movies. This is a filmmaker who's made his entire career making movies about fantastical, weird, and outlandish characters and environments. He's successful because of it, he's well-known for it. If you're expecting more, and being let down because you're not getting it, then stop watching his movies.

[Hey Man]

Then don't watch his movies. This is a filmmaker who's made his entire career making movies about fantastical, weird, and outlandish characters and environments. He's successful because of it, he's well-known for it. If you're expecting more, and being let down because you're not getting it, then stop watching his movies.

1. Doesn't mean I can't rant about it.

2. If it was any other director - you would all be thinking Depp looks fucking stupid.

[LordSimen]

'Eh. It's Alice in Wonderland, if this was any other director, I'd be happy as all hell that someone was actually doing something crazy with it.

[bigred760]

1. Doesn't mean I can't rant about it.

Never said you couldn't.


2. If it was any other director - you would all be thinking Depp looks fucking stupid.

I thought it looked like Elijah Wood in makeup. Still do actually.

[Hey Man]

Never said you couldn't.



I thought it looked like Elijah Wood in makeup. Still do actually.

Look I know we all have a soft spot for our favorite directors and will defend most choices, but I find it very hard to believe that none of you Burton fans, thinks that they went a little overboard with Depp. I mean do you really think it's creative brilliance?

[LordSimen]

I'm not so sure why it's so hard to understand that it's Alice in Wonderland. The line for what's acceptable and what's not in terms of production and character design for a world called Wonderland that includes things such as invisible cats, opium smoking giant caterpillers, a mouse with an extensive knowledge on past Warlords, A gryphon, a depressed turtle, etc... is a practically non-existent line. In fact the only thing you could really do to go "too far" with something like this is give the Mad Hatter giant tentacles that shoot out of his eyes and poo all over Alice's dress then flies away using a huge bubble of helium that expands out of his neck and makes him look like a hot air balloon.

[bigred760]

Look I know we all have a soft spot for our favorite directors and will defend most choices, but I find it very hard to believe that none of you Burton fans, thinks that they went a little overboard with Depp. I mean do you really think it's creative brilliance?

I don't know what it is. I do know I'm not going to criticize Tim Burton's creative style based on one promotional picture of Johnny Depp in character as the Mad Hatter. It is ONE picture. There's more to a director and his style than just one picture of a supporting character. I don't know about "creative brilliance," but it's definitely outlandish, freakish, and different. Something I would expect from "Alice in Wonderland."

I'm not Tim Burton's biggest fan. I enjoy most of his movies, but I only own one of them (Batman).

[john_rambo]

Did Tim Burton like kill your family or something?

And what's with telling us why we think how we do? If you have psychic abilities why aren't you changing the world instead of complaining about Tim Burton?

[Hey Man]

Did Tim Burton like kill your family or something?

And what's with telling us why we think how we do? If you have psychic abilities why aren't you changing the world instead of complaining about Tim Burton?

Because I am Robert Evans.

[Heisenberg]

I gotta admit Hey Man, I disagree with most of your rants. This has to be one of the stupidest I have ever heard from you. I just don't 'get' the point your trying to make.

[Hey Man]

I gotta admit Hey Man, I disagree with most of your rants. This has to be one of the stupidest I have ever heard from you. I just don't 'get' the point your trying to make.

I don't undertstand what you are trying to "get" exactly. It's a rant and as such - doesn't require you to feel the same way. Some have agreed with me and others don't.

What you are really saying though in your attempt to "get" me is "I love Tim Burton and it's stupid for you to start a thread that attacks him".

[Heisenberg]

No, I'm not saying that at all. It just seems like you just pick random things to rant about for absolutely no reason.

"I don't like Tim Burton's style, so he should change it for ME" - This is what you are basically saying.

[Hey Man]

No, I'm not saying that at all. It just seems like you just pick random things to rant about for absolutely no reason.

"I don't like Tim Burton's style, so he should change it for ME" - This is what you are basically saying.

Newsflash - most rants are about random things. They don't have to be earth shattering topics. You are trying to read more into it. I never said he should change anything for ME. But doesn't mean I still can't provide my opinion. Why are other rants about directors more acceptable to you?

Hey if you don't like my brand of posting - don't read my threads.

[Darin]

I'm not sure if it's Tim Burton going over the top. That's just how he makes his movies. Now when I saw the first two seconds of the Alice in Wonderland trailer, (although I already knew it was Tim Burton) I could tell this was a trailer for a Tim Burton film. All of his films look exactly the same. Change up your gameplan for once Burton. I know it's safer to stick with a winning formula, but show us your cojones, figuratively, and give us something that proves you are more than one dimensional.

[MisterTwister]

I haven't liked a Tim Burton film since Sleepy Hollow.

Planet of the Apes was a disappointment, Big Fish was meh, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was freaking terrible, Corpse Bride was a massive disappointment and the less said about Sweeney Todd the better.

I hope Alice in Wonderland is good but I'm just not sure anymore.

[Heisenberg]

I thought Corpse Bride was amazing. The story wasn't all that fantastic, but the animation melted my brain from its pure WOW-ness.

[Danger^Cart]

I just watched the teaser trailer for Alice In Wonderland, and holy shit did it ever kill any excitement I had for the film. Maybe it's an awesome movie and the trailer simply sucked, it's very possible, but the whole time I was watching it I couldn't help but be overwhelmed by this feeling of putrid redundancy. It's like he's making the same fucking movie over and over again, and he tries way too hard every single time.

[Crazy Dud]

All his movies look EXACTLY the same? Really? Sweeney Todd looked EXACTLY like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Batman looked just like Big Fish? Edward Scissorhands looked just like Sleepy Hollow? Of course they didn't. It isn't that all his films look exactly the same, it's that all his films look like they're from Tim Burton, and why shouldn't they? When you see a Van Gogh painting, you don't have to be told it's Van Gogh because you instantly recognize his style. The same goes for Rembrandt, or even Michelangelo. There's nothing wrong with Burton having a distinct style that is instantly recognizable as his own. In fact, that is EXACTLY what most artists strive for.

[LordSimen]

All his movies look EXACTLY the same? Really? Sweeney Todd looked EXACTLY like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Batman looked just like Big Fish? Edward Scissorhands looked just like Sleepy Hollow? Of course they didn't. It isn't that all his films look exactly the same, it's that all his films look like they're from Tim Burton, and why shouldn't they? When you see a Van Gogh painting, you don't have to be told it's Van Gogh because you instantly recognize his style. The same goes for Rembrandt, or even Michelangelo. There's nothing wrong with Burton having a distinct style that is instantly recognizable as his own. In fact, that is EXACTLY what most artists strive for.

Agreed completely.

[Monotreme]

All his movies look EXACTLY the same? Really? Sweeney Todd looked EXACTLY like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Batman looked just like Big Fish? Edward Scissorhands looked just like Sleepy Hollow? Of course they didn't. It isn't that all his films look exactly the same, it's that all his films look like they're from Tim Burton, and why shouldn't they? When you see a Van Gogh painting, you don't have to be told it's Van Gogh because you instantly recognize his style. The same goes for Rembrandt, or even Michelangelo. There's nothing wrong with Burton having a distinct style that is instantly recognizable as his own. In fact, that is EXACTLY what most artists strive for.

Thirded. I also don't understand how you can think the Alice trailer looks like Burton was making the same movie over again, Danger^Cart. I thought it looked totally fantastic and completely unique; sure, it has that unmistakable Burton touch, but it's really a style quite unlike anything he's done before. First of all, it's far more over-the-top than anything else he's done (appropriately so), and overall, it's as if he took the candy-cane insanity of the designs in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory but combined them with the dark and ominous styles of Batman, Sleepy Hollow and Sweeney Todd. I personally loved it and though it looked like a wholly new and unique style while still retaining the Burton touch. It's definitely one of the most original-looking films visually of recent memory, at least based on the trailer.

[Crazy Dud]

Agreed completely.

We seem to be agreeing a lot lately. I think the world's officially about to end! :D

[Foghat]

I thoroughly enjoy Burton's original works but when he is given already established material (Alice in Wonderland, Willy Wonka, Superman) he puts his spin on it and destroys it. I am all about style but completely fucking up Superman would have been a travesty worse than the Singer one. Thank god the studio never let that take off the ground.

[Hey Man]

Based on how fucking awful Nic Cage looked as Superman - you really have to wonder where his head was at for him to actually think it was a good idea.

[Worthystevens]

Personally, I consider films like Sweeney Todd and Planet of the Apes to be him branching out, as well as the upcoming Dark Shadows.

Burton is one of my favorite directors. I love his creativity and artistry, both of which I find to be completely unpredictable.