Larry David and the double standards in America

[Pentangeli]

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2009/10/28/catholic-league-blasts-larry-david-curb-episode-urinates-jesus/

In the U.S media, there's a constant attack on Christianity. Yet whenever somebody has the guts to speak out about the asinine drivel that is Judaism, such views aren't accepted, and often people hide behind their ethnicity to prevent any attacks on the ideological belief.

What Larry David did was a disgrace. I wonder if he would find it funny if someone pissed on a Synagogue. Lets find out...

[Cosimo]

i think he would find it funny. he is certainly a self mocking jew

the ep wasn't all that funny, the bald man line up made me chuckle

[screamer581]

Dude, he was taking medicine! He didn't plan on pissing on Christ.

[A.J. Hakari]

Yet whenever somebody has the guts to speak out about the asinine drivel that is Judaism

Erm...?

[BakeTheMooCow]

It's funny because most of the miracles you hear about involve Jesus crying real tears or blood or something. Why would pissing on a Synagogue be funny? Do people claim that the walls of their Synagogue are crying?

Cosimo is right that the episode wasn't that funny. Last night's was much better.

[Pentangeli]

It's funny because most of the miracles you hear about involve Jesus crying real tears or blood or something. Why would pissing on a Synagogue be funny? Do people claim that the walls of their Synagogue are crying?

Cosimo is right that the episode wasn't that funny. Last night's was much better.

Pissing on a synagogue wouldn't be funny. Neither would a Danish man drawing derogatory cartoons of Muhammad. But none of those would be presented by the mainstream media as funny and entertaining. Therein lies the double standard.

[Preston_79]

That was the funniest episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm I'd seen in a while.

There is a double standard, but I say so what? Christians need to be the bigger religion and laugh at themselves once in a while and not be as humorless and intolerant as some others. Lighten up!

[SkyNet]

you cant be serious?!

Its fucking Curb Your Enthusiasm.. everything is made fun of.. i thought that shit was fucking hilarious and when i saw it, i could not stop laughing.

It's people like whoever bitch about this harmless episode that make this country such a terrible place... everything is something to bitch about, you cant let creative people just do their thing, you have to tear them apart because they are more creative than you are (you being the vast majority of religious people in this country, or any one who agrees with anything Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson say)

Now, i may disagree with almost anything these people say, but i agree that they have the right to say it.. but when they try and break down others for doing stuff, it becomes unacceptable to me... because these types of ppl are the epitome of a double standard.. what's ok for them is not for others.


Larry David is a comedic genius, and that episode was amazing.
Fox News does nothing but bitch about everything and thusly can never be taken seriously, especially since by their own definition, the majority of their programming is not even news!

(and note when i say "You" i am speaking in generalizations, not to any particular person.. although Glenn Beck is a complete idiot, but thats another discussion)!

[Smiert Spionam]

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2009/10/28/catholic-league-blasts-larry-david-curb-episode-urinates-jesus/

In the U.S media, there's a constant attack on Christianity....

I stopped reading there.

[Badbird]

I stopped reading there.

Me too.

http://breaktheterror.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/christian_oppression_pie1.png?w=350&h=262

[zombievictim]

Me too.

http://breaktheterror.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/christian_oppression_pie1.png?w=350&h=262

Hahah that cracked me up.

Fuck religion. Especially Christianity.

[Inglorious]

Hahah that cracked me up.

Fuck religion. Especially Christianity.

I dont totally agree with the wording, but this. ^

That pie chart cracked me up too. I cant believe someone is saying that Christianity is constantly attacked in the US... I see nothing but otherwise. It is either praised or brushed over, never attacked. I also agree with Preston, although I feel all religious persons need to lighten up... but Im sure thats never gonna happen.

I dont think Larry David was making fun so much as he was having fun with it. To each their own...

[blankpage]

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2009/10/28/catholic-league-blasts-larry-david-curb-episode-urinates-jesus/

In the U.S media, there's a constant attack on Christianity. Yet whenever somebody has the guts to speak out about the asinine drivel that is Judaism, such views aren't accepted, and often people hide behind their ethnicity to prevent any attacks on the ideological belief.



Yup, since Christianity has been proven not to be asinine drivel, what Larry David did should have him exiled.

[someguy]

Pentangeli, tell us about the great Jewish media conspiracy.

[Pentangeli]

Its fucking Curb Your Enthusiasm.. everything is made fun of!

Where was the episode where he pissed in a yamaka?

[Pentangeli]

Pentangeli, tell us about the great Jewish media conspiracy.

I didn't say they was one :confused:

However there is a set of values enforced onto society via the media, where attacks on some groups are acceptable, while other groups are protected. That is the conspiracy -- one of double standards.

[Pentangeli]

Me too.

http://breaktheterror.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/christian_oppression_pie1.png?w=350&h=262

:rolleyes:

Now post the stats which are in context of the thread, i.e post the demographs of those in high up positions in the media (writers, producers, directors etc). Mostly Christians? I think not.

[QUENTIN]

This is the episode where Larry pretends to be a Hasidic Jew and spends half the episode muttering over-enunciated fake Hebrew and mocking their silly religious customs: http://www.hbo.com/larrydavid/episode/season5/episode48.html

This is the episode where Larry considers sleeping with a Hasidic woman and can't grasp and subsequently mocks the silly hole-in-the-sheet religious custom, capped off with a barrel of laughs about the relative hardships of the Holocaust and a month of Survivor: http://www.hbo.com/larrydavid/episode/season4/episode39.html

This is the episode where Larry sets up Michael on a blind date with a Muslim woman in a hijab, mocking and getting tons of mileage out of their religious custom that makes it impossible to tell if a woman's attractive: http://www.hbo.com/larrydavid/episode/season4/episode33.html

You were saying something about a double standard?

[A.J. Hakari]

I didn't say they was one :confused:

Just that Judaism is complete baloney.

See, guys, he's not all bad!

:rolleyes:

[Inglorious]

Meh. I believe all religions should be made fun of.

"Its a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it... "

[QUENTIN]

:rolleyes:

Now post the stats which are in context of the thread, i.e post the demographs of those in high up positions in the media (writers, producers, directors etc). Mostly Christians? I think not.

Good point.

Here's a look into the Curb Your Enthusiasm writers' room:

http://www.rense.com/general82/rabbis.jpg

[Pentangeli]

Just that Judaism is complete baloney.


Of course it is. Every religion, if taken word for word, is baloney, even the OT part of the Bible. But that's not to say people should piss on other's beliefs. I dislike Islam, but I'm not going to draw some silly cartoon to insult their belief.

Har-har-har I'm a grown up Danish man and I've just drawn a cartoon of Muhammad har har

Har-har-har I'm old Jewish guy and I've just pissed on a religious icon hardy har har har har.......har............
:rolleyes:

[SkyNet]

Where was the episode where he pissed in a yamaka?

how about almost every episode where he makes anti-semetic or however its spelled remarks.

Your arguments hold no weight, because you are seeing one thing and choosing to ignore everything else in support of that lone argument.

I think the point of this thread is to point out that these religions are what keeps this world down, whether it be the wars.. or bitching about a COMEDY TV SHOW for a joke on religion... when in fact all religion is.. is a joke!

[Pentangeli]

I think the point of this thread is to point out that these religions are what keeps this world down, whether it be the wars..

Yes, because its the religious groups who've profited from the involvement in the Middle East over the years. The Iranian coup d'etat of 53' was all about religion :rolleyes:

[QUENTIN]

Reverence ain't for everyone and some like taking the piss. Comedians especially, that's actually what they're here for. If Larry David's regularly mocking tone about Judaism didn't bother you, this shouldn't have either. As demonstrated, it's not an attack on Christians specifically. He's an equal opportunity offender who has made light of the three big monotheistic religions (which completely discredits the basis of your argument). Besides, he fake pissed on a damn painting, not your savior in the flesh.

If something is admittedly baloney, then it's a fair target for humor. The Mohammed cartoon was a satire mocking how seriously Muslims take the forbidden nature of depicting their prophet. Free speech at its finest. This is just Larry David making fun of everything, especially the taboo, as has always been his schtick. It's not about Jesus, it's just a device to get a laugh. It's not socio-political commentary, but I guess it was bound to offend someone.

Just because you hold something to be sacred doesn't mean those with different values, beliefs, and opinions have to do the same. And their irreverence is not an attack on your beliefs, just a byproduct of them having different ones.

[Pentangeli]

Just because you hold something to be sacred doesn't mean those with different values, beliefs, and opinions have to do the same. And their irreverence is not an attack on your beliefs, just a byproduct of them having different ones.

There's a difference between mocking and urinating.

Dara O'Briain is probably my favourite stand-up, and he sometimes mocks Christianity to a degree, and I have no problem with that.

What gets me is the double standards. You say its an expression of beliefs, but what if someone got a yamaka and pissed in it, to show their contempt for Judaism, do you honestly think it would get approval from media producers.

[SkyNet]

i think this thread is veering into an unsavory place, which can result in some schmoes losing their shit and possibly getting banned! They always start out this way, and even though i have participated in the thread, i think we should put the kibosh on it before it gets out of hand.

I think we are all just going to have to all agree to disagree with Pentangeli (which is an odd name for a schmoe arguing about religion)!

Shit happens... i found the episode hilarious, and get annoyed when people get bent out of shape over small non issues.. but i guess i support the right everyone has to voice those displeasures

[QUENTIN]

There's a difference between mocking and urinating.

Dara O'Briain is probably my favourite stand-up, and he sometimes mocks Christianity to a degree, and I have no problem with that.

What gets me is the double standards. You say its an expression of beliefs, but what if someone got a yamaka and pissed in it, to show their contempt for Judaism, do you honestly think it would get approval from media producers.

Yarmulke. Sorry, but it's just too funny seeing it spelled like a Japanese word.

I don't think there is a difference between mocking and fake urinating, the latter is just another form of irreverence. I don't think you'd have a problem with if it was a yarmulke or hijab being peed on. The only difference is those wouldn't make sense because people don't see them crying. But yes, they would definitely be aired. It's Larry David and it's HBO, he's loved for his ability to get humor out of the most taboo subjects and they're an uncensored pay channel.

I'm not sure if you missed my first post here, but Larry David has made fun of tons of Jewish customs, sometimes basing entire episodes around it, (and made light of the Holocaust), and had a Muslim woman a primary character in an episode just to get humor out of her religious garment hiding her looks. None of those, including this, are about showing contempt for the religion at all. That's an absurd interpretation if you're familiar with the show. It's simply using the sanctity of religion/religious customs/religious beliefs, as a plot device to get laughs. More shocking, more inappropriate to the characters in the show, more embarrassing for Larry, more humorous for the audience is the way almost all episodes operate whether you think that formula works or not. I'm sure certain Hasidic Jews and Muslims got offended by those scenes too. People are super touchy about religion. That's part of the reason it's so ripe for comedy.

Do you watch Curb?

[bigred760]

Are people upset that he urinated on a picture of Jesus or because there were characters that believed the picture was weeping? The part of the characters believing that Jesus was crying cracked me up. People who "see" images of Jesus in french toast, sweat stains, or wherever always crack me up.

[Buck Turgidson]

Pentangeli, tell us about the great Jewish media conspiracy.Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll start in on the stuff about how they all want to watch Shaquille O'Neal fuck their wives, too.

[A.J. Hakari]

Of course it is. Every religion, if taken word for word, is baloney, even the OT part of the Bible. But that's not to say people should piss on other's beliefs. I dislike Islam, but I'm not going to draw some silly cartoon to insult their belief.

Then shouldn't Christianity be just as open a target for some joshing? It may not be what you intended, but the tone of your initial post seems to claim that Christianity is getting dive-bombed from every direction, that it's exempt from satire and criticism while it's fine for other religions to be made fun of. Like you say, I'm not about to think lesser of someone because of their faith, but if it's alright for one religion to have a joke or two made at its expense, then the same should go for all.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to ridicule the Amish as much. God knows they deserve it.

:D

[RicochetShaw]

He's an equal opportunity offender who has made light of the three big monotheistic religions (Which completely discredits the basis of your argument). Besides, he fake pissed on a damn painting, not your savior in the flesh.


This.

Pent, your thesis was that when minority religions (i.e., ones that aren't Christianity) are mocked, "such views aren't accepted." QUENTIN's demonstration that Larry Davis has indeed mocked other religions proves your assertion wrong.

[The Postmaster General]

I haven't seen the episode, but the problem here I'm getting is that David didn't mean to piss on the picture. It was accidental.

Even still, Pentsy is taking issue with a Jew pissing on the picture. He doesn't take issue with a Christian hanging a picture of Our Lord and Savior in the proximity of people defecating and urinating. Now that's a double standard!!!

[Pentangeli]

This.

Pent, your thesis was that when minority religions (i.e., ones that aren't Christianity) are mocked, "such views aren't accepted." QUENTIN's demonstration that Larry Davis has indeed mocked other religions proves your assertion wrong.

Quentin's links don't work for me, maybe its only for Americans. And while I haven't seen the episodes being referred to, for argument sake I'll accept that other religions are made fun of as well.

However, there are of course varying degrees of contempt. I have heard no examples of Larry King disrespecting a religion as much he did with Christianity.

Another issue is that while Larry King may have made anti-Judaism comments, he has Jewish (faith) background. If a Christian had made such comments it would have been a big no no, and everyone here knows it.

My assertion stands: double standards in the media.

I'll now be taking Skynet's advice, his experience of this site, and leave it there.

[Scarface98.9]

"If you don't like it, change the channel..."

[Sgizzy316]

This guy must be late for his Klan meeting since he's too busy reading Fox (as right as it gets) "News"

[BadCoverVersion]

Quentin's links don't work for me, maybe its only for Americans. And while I haven't seen the episodes being referred to, for argument sake I'll accept that other religions are made fun of as well.

However, there are of course varying degrees of contempt. I have heard no examples of Larry King disrespecting a religion as much he did with Christianity.

Another issue is that while Larry King may have made anti-Judaism comments, he has Jewish (faith) background. If a Christian had made such comments it would have been a big no no, and everyone here knows it.

My assertion stands: double standards in the media.

I'll now be taking Skynet's advice, his experience of this site, and leave it there.

Larry King???
:confused:

Pent, you've obviously never watched "Curb..." and I think you've got this one ALL wrong. ANY religion, creed, colour is absolutely fair game to Larry David...and the man has SUPER comedic talent weeping like piss out of Jesus' eyeballs...honestly.

My own experience...

I lived slap bang in the middle of a HUGE Haredi/Orthodox Jewish community until I was in my mid-20's - the second largest in the UK in fact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestwich) - and I can honestly say that I am now aware of a million and one 'Yid' jokes. Hand on my heart I only remember hearing ONE Jesus joke as a kid and it was pretty tame in comparison.

I admit that I take issue with a few Haredi Jewish customs...mainly the fact that the women have to wear thick wooly tights and ridiculously itchy looking wigs and headscarves even in the sweltering heat. I also find some pockets of the community far too insular and self-serving...and Volvo's are just far too fucking cumbersome. There I said it.

But I have as many issues with almost every other religion/belief system out there...well, all except Quakers. Those kids are crazy cool.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is I think Christians get off lightly...and since the early 90's the media has been trying to convince the gullible GBP that Christian 'customs' and religious holidays are suffering due to the protestation of other religions, and this is so obviously bullshit. Muslims are not crying out for decorations to be removed from the local community centre, Sikhs haven't called for a ban on kiddies singing Carols...and Jews are not crying out for a kibosh on The Nativity! This is all a heap of nonsense dreamed up by white folks with too much time on their hands and no concept of how political correctness SHOULD actually work.

Christians are certainly not persecuted and I find it difficult to envision a period in my lifetime where they ever will be. As for Christians IN the USA being persecuted...I mean come the fuck on!?

[Pentangeli]

Note to self: never say you're going to leave a thread, when you know full well that you'll be dragged back in a day or so.

This guy must be late for his Klan meeting since he's too busy reading Fox (as right as it gets) "News"

Non sequitur.

Larry King???
:confused:

Pent, you've obviously never watched "Curb..." and I think you've got this one ALL wrong. ANY religion, creed, colour is absolutely fair game to Larry David...and the man has SUPER comedic talent weeping like piss out of Jesus' eyeballs...honestly.

My own experience...

I lived slap bang in the middle of a HUGE Haredi/Orthodox Jewish community until I was in my mid-20's - the second largest in the UK in fact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestwich) - and I can honestly say that I am now aware of a million and one 'Yid' jokes. Hand on my heart I only remember hearing ONE Jesus joke as a kid and it was pretty tame in comparison.

I admit that I take issue with a few Haredi Jewish customs...mainly the fact that the women have to wear thick wooly tights and ridiculously itchy looking wigs and headscarves even in the sweltering heat. I also find some pockets of the community far too insular and self-serving...and Volvo's are just far too fucking cumbersome. There I said it.

But I have as many issues with almost every other religion/belief system out there...well, all except Quakers. Those kids are crazy cool.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is I think Christians get off lightly...and since the early 90's the media has been trying to convince the gullible GBP that Christian 'customs' and religious holidays are suffering due to the protestation of other religions, and this is so obviously bullshit. Muslims are not crying out for decorations to be removed from the local community centre, Sikhs haven't called for a ban on kiddies singing Carols...and Jews are not crying out for a kibosh on The Nativity! This is all a heap of nonsense dreamed up by white folks with too much time on their hands and no concept of how political correctness SHOULD actually work.

Christians are certainly not persecuted and I find it difficult to envision a period in my lifetime where they ever will be. As for Christians IN the USA being persecuted...I mean come the fuck on!?

Larry King....I meant Larry David.

I haven't mentioned Jewish communities.

I haven't said Christians are being persecuted.

I haven't mentioned religious holidays. The cool ones are mostly Pagan anyway.

What I've been talking about is Larry David pissing on a religious icon is a double standard. A Christian or a Muslim would never be allowed to piss in a Yamaka..Yamulke and for it to be aired. Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely. And certainly you wouldn't see a Christian or Muslim pissing on something of significance to the Jewish faith.

[Pentangeli]

"If you don't like it, change the channel..."

News just in: Channel 4 released a scandalous sex tape involving Roman Polanski and an underage girl. In response to the public backlash, Downing Street has released its stance on the matter: "if you don't like, change the channel...", read the statement, heavy handedly written in crayon.

[BadCoverVersion]

Note to self: never say you're going to leave a thread, when you know full well that you'll be dragged back in a day or so.



Non sequitur.



Larry King....I meant Larry David.

I haven't mentioned Jewish communities.

I haven't said Christians are being persecuted.

I haven't mentioned religious holidays. The cool ones are mostly Pagan anyway.

What I've been talking about is Larry David pissing on a religious icon is a double standard. A Christian or a Muslim would never be allowed to piss in a Yamaka..Yamulke and for it to be aired. Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely. And certainly you wouldn't see a Christian or Muslim pissing on something of significance to the Jewish faith.

My point was that according to my own experience the modern Christian has very little to bitch and whine about. They are not feared and persecuted and relentlessly (mis)judged to the degree that a Muslim or Jew is.

Anyway, you originally took issue with the fact that Larry David had specifically mocked a symbol of Christianity. When it was pointed out that he has mocked both Judaism and Islam in past episodes of "Curb Your Enthsiasm" you started spouting on about 'double standards'.

"Curb..." is a satire, and an intelligent, highbrow one at that. Some idiot source at Fox News claim that artists NEVER mock any other religions in the name of comedy and they are clearly exceptionally wrong in this case. Fox News makes another boo-boo. What a surprise!

Comedians tend to derive material from/mock what they know...and I can't really think of a single Jewish comedian who regularly cracks funnies about Christianity in the same way that I couldn't name a Muslim or a Christian who targets any religion other than their own.

However, I can think of a million Jew jokes from films and TV (smart ones to boot)...you're living a sheltered life if you think Judaism doesn't take a comedic kicking. Most religions/belief systems do in one way or another.

Would you see this issue any differently if Larry David was a CHRISTIAN man lampooning the event of a Christian miracle?

[Smiert Spionam]

News just in: Channel 4 released a scandalous sex tape involving Roman Polanski and an underage girl. In response to the public backlash, Downing Street has released its stance on the matter: "if you don't like, change the channel...", read the statement, heavy handedly written in crayon.

1. Curb is on HBO, a premium cable channel.
2. A sex tape has never been aired on regular television, let alone on the news. Nevermind the fact it would be a sex tape involving a minor, which is highly illegal to even have possession of.

You need another analogy...

[Pentangeli]

1. Curb is on HBO, a premium cable channel.
2. A sex tape has never been aired on regular television, let alone on the news. Nevermind the fact it would be a sex tape involving a minor, which is highly illegal to even have possession of.

You need another analogy...

1. It wasn't analogous.
2. ...It wasn't analogous.
3. I didn't need numerical bullet points.
4. Ripe bananas are yellow.
5. Lady Gaga has a willy
6. Yep, no matter how hard i've tried to make them work, I really didn't need these numerical bullet points, no need for them whatsoever.

[The Postmaster General]

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely.


http://disbeliefnet.com/images/big_important_religions/southpark-jew.jpg

[BadCoverVersion]

http://www.freewebs.com/montypythonworld/Group%20-%20Life%20of%20Brian.jpg

Mr. Big Nose: I'll get you for this, you bastard.
Parvus: Oh, yeah?
Mr. Big Nose: Oh, yeah. Don't worry. I never forget a face.
Parvus: No?
Mr. Big Nose: I warned you. I'm going to punch you so hard, you Roman git!
Parvus: Shut up, you Jewish turd!
Mr. Big Nose: Who are you calling Jewish? I'm not Jewish! I'm a Samaritan!
Gregory: A Samaritan? This is supposed to be a Jewish section.

[Jon Lyrik]

The Jews got all the money!

[The Postmaster General]

There's also been scores and scores of jokes about Jews involvement in the entertainment industry - I want to say Hollywood Shuffle made some, but can't place any specific sources for sure. Along the same lines, there's the jokes with the over-the-top Jewish stereotype who's running slums. These types of jokes happen so often in media that it's hard to even recall specific examples.

A picture of Jesus next to a toilet isn't really a sacred thing, sorry. That's why it's different from, say, Mohammed cartoons. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think the act of making an image of Jesus is strictly forbidden by the bible, but there's nothing in there that says you can't piss on one. Please feel free to provide scripture saying otherwise, because in contexts such as this one, I'd rather be wrong and learn something new than be right.

Something else, I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people. Probably next is African-Americans. There's not a whole lot of white Christian jokes being told by people from Christian backgrounds - the one exception I can think of is a black Christian by the name of Tyler Perry.

What I'm getting at here, is that if there's not enough good Jewish jokes in the media by groups other than Jews, it's probably because the good ones have already been done, statistically, by Jews.

As was pointed out, how is pissing on a synagogue funny?

Pent, pretend you are Larry David, and please draft a series of scenes with a set-up, delivery, and punch-line, in which someone pisses on a synagogue. Then what we can do is that that joke, and the other joke -- I can reformat them to be identical in objective statements - and we can start another thread, a poll. Then we can see which people think is funnier.

Probably, the bottom line is that I think the only people with possibly a right to complain about what Pent is complaining about is Christian writers in Hollywood who have gotten shit for making Jewish jokes (ones that weren't Anti-Semitic, at least)

If anything, I think Christians would have been offended by them being depicted as being misled in their faith, but apparently no one noticed that part because they were too confused by watching the show since they never watch it and are mostly thinking, "Wait, is he supposed to be a real person, or is he like a character? What's going on?"

[labialover]

I hope Larry David gets interviewed by Fox News and is an asshole to them, as only Larry David could be.

[Natty]

http://breaktheterror.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/christian_oppression_pie1.png?w=350&h=262

Christians are the majority yes, but they are also the one group that people have no problem oppressing/insulting. Just because they are the majority doesn't mean you should do it, just like when you insult any 'group'; you're only exposing your own insecurities.

If you think about it, everyone on these boards seems happy to oppress Christian views, and this isn't the first time this stupid bloody graph has been posted here.

EDIT: By the way the graph isn't accurate at all, so that's why I would deem it 'stupid'. Christians remain the majority but make up about 35-40 percent rather than 80.

[Jon Lyrik]

That doesn't even make sense. Christians make up a good 75% of Americans, where Larry David resides. You mean the worldwide plurality, and even then you are overshooting it.

People are just annoyed by the sanctimonious and selective (and vaguely anti-Semitic) whining. People mock religion all the time here, don't make me pull up threads on Mormonism or fundamentalist Islam or Scientology. People need ribbing to stay humble, all people.

I'm also trying to think of when Christian views have EVER been oppressed here.

[Natty]

What part doesn't make sense? I know if you're 35% then you're not the majority but I meant they are the most popular religious group.

I was talking about worldwide figures yes.


Dammit:

Fuck religion. Especially Christianity.

Oh, trumpets in heaven are referenced to in more then one occasion. So are these invisible trumpets, or ones made of metal? And angels have I guess a respiratory system with which to blow these trumpets with? Are their lungs invisible as well? :rolleyes:

My question is, is Heaven ONLY open to you if you believe in Jesus? If so, I reject the idea.

In regards to Baptism - it's not a Christian tradition at all.

the early Popes of Christianity were sometimes homosexual, fathered children with their own daughters, had liasons with underage children.

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww200/Dathammer385/mot-chrisitianity.jpg

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/6139/summingupthebible3.jpg


http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/7899/persecution.jpg

christianity has been known to kill others who dont think like them.

I mean I can literally go on and on with things that dont make sense about christianity, and demons and being afraid to be affected by them is just one of them.

Why not tell you, you are great, you can achieve your dreams, you can do achieve anything you want to in life instead of: you are not even worthy of your own god. It seems like a destructive way of thinking. Its kind of depressive.

Not all these are oppressing the 'views' I know, but its banging on about the evils and implausibilities of the ridiculous idea that is being a Christian. No need.

[ericdraven]

I think people bashing christianity is as fanatic as christians bashing homosexuality.

[BakeTheMooCow]

I think people bashing christianity is as fanatic as christians bashing homosexuality.

One is a choice and the other isn't, so no.

[Pentangeli]

One is a choice and the other isn't, so no.

It depends on whether (on homosexuality) you are referring to the attraction or the sexual act. Certainly any action is a choice.

[QUENTIN]

What part doesn't make sense? I know if you're 35% then you're not the majority but I meant they are the most popular religious group.

I was talking about worldwide figures yes.

Not all these are oppressing the 'views' I know, but its banging on about the evils and implausibilities of the ridiculous idea that is being a Christian. No need.

The graph is about America, which is the country this American Larry David sitcom criticism from Fox News concerns and where the graph is a fairly accurate representation of religious identification. It is American Christians who are known to falsely whine about being oppressed when they can't put manger scenes on public property or feeling a looming threat of "War on Christmas" and whatnot. What they define as oppression is generally just no longer receiving special and preferential treatment.

NONE of those quotes you cite are oppressing Christianity or Christian views. They're quotes made by people expressing their opinions on Christianity, mocking, deriding, or most often simply personally rejecting its tenets. None of these quoted individuals writing on a movie message board have the power and authority necessary to burden with cruel and unjust impositions the Christian faith or views of Christian individuals. It would take a tyrant of some sort to do that.

Criticize ≠ Oppress which is part of what that graph and many others are mocking. We all have the right to criticize. Islam is far more commonly and widely derided than Christianity in the States. The reason Christianity is a bigger target from non-anti semitic Americans than Judaism is because there are 80 million American Evangelical Christians including our last president, and over 230 million American Christians total. There are about 5 million American Jews. One has a much larger impact and is therefore a much larger target. It's the same reason The Daily Show mostly focuses on Democrats, Republicans, and the 24-hour-networks, not the America First Party, Marijuana Party and a cable access news program in Wichita. The other big factor is that most atheists and agnostics in America are not only surrounded by Christians, but were usually raised Christian and so that's the religion that gets their resentment or ire or has its hypocrisies most evident in their minds. Non-religious or anti-religious people tend to think Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Zorostrianism etc. are all just as silly as Christianity, but they're not as familiar with the other religions and aren't encountering Zorostrians every day for instance. It's mostly a question of what you're exposed to.

There is no need for anything we say on the boards. But we're free to express our opinions whatever they may be so long as they don't break the rules. Just because you hold a movie very dear to your heart doesn't mean someone else who thought it was silly shit shouldn't say so. Feel free to mock and criticize non-Christians.

On another note:


I haven't said Christians are being persecuted.


Isn't that the point of your thread? That and that Jews run Hollywood. The first line of your first post:


In the U.S media, there's a constant attack on Christianity.

[Pentangeli]

Isn't that the point of your thread? That and that Jews run Hollywood. The first line of your first post:

The first line will be given the proper context when read together with the rest of the paragraph.

My complaint is not that some people attack/criticise/mock Christianity. The complaint was the double standards the U.S media has on the issue of disrespecting religions. Some religions are relatively protected, or ideed off limits depending on the individual who wishes to voice the attack/etc/etc.

I've never said Jews run Hollywood.

[Badbird]

Giving you a hard time does not equal "Oppression."

The whining in this thread exemplifies the joke of my pie chart perfectly.

I'm sure you guys just get furious when someone says "Happy Holidays!"

[Smiert Spionam]

Okay, who here can actually name ONE religion which is completely "off-limits" and has yet to be made fun of in movies or television?


























Exactly.

[Jon Lyrik]

Taoism?

[Reigh Kaufman]

Taoism?

The Tao of Steve?

[Natty]

I'm fully aware of the reasons why Christians are criticised more than those of another religion. I just said that people shouldn't do it so much,

There is no need for anything we say on the boards. Feel free to mock and criticize non-Christians.

:rolleyes: I choose not to because I shouldn't have to, it's petty and the discussions should relate to movies/celebrities anyway. I believe mocking people (especially on the grounds of faith) is against the rules of the forum and that's why the 'whining' (which by the way BadBird is always a response to your initial whining--even if you simply posted a picture) was done.

As for the difference between mocking and oppression, I was talking about oppression as putting down or treating unjustly. If you mean oppression in the sense that people are being kept down by a higher force or overwhelmed unfairly (i.e. the citizens in 1984) than I really can't think of any examples in which Chrisitans have complained about being oppressed, so the graph is still nonsense to me. Maybe I need to live in the States to get all of this religion backlash.

[Natty]

I'm sure you guys just get furious when someone says "Happy Holidays!"

No.

[Smiert Spionam]

Does anyone find it ironic that the two people most concerned/upset about this don't even live in America?

[Natty]

Does anyone find it ironic that the two people most concerned/upset about this don't even live in America?

Well yeah that's what I was getting at. I probably need to live in a country in which it's the atheists that are oppressed in order to understand all this backlash against Christianity. And I'm not concerned/upset about what Larry David did, just all the disrespectful anti-religious statements that usually arise on these forums every time a thread with the theme of religion is created.

[Natty]

One is a choice and the other isn't, so no.

No to you. Both are choices. Maybe I don't get what you're trying to say though, do explain.

[Smiert Spionam]

Word. Let me put it this way: I like you Natty. I think you're a cool chap, as I'm sure many other Schmoes here do as well.

But here's something you might have to come to accept: Some of us really hate religion......just like some of us really hate Michael Bay. So yes, occasionally, we'll be taking pot shots at Jesus. We don't mean it with the intention to insult you personally or your beliefs, we meant it to insult the awful people that perpetuate evil in the name of your beliefs. So when someone says "Christianity is dumb." etc, just let it go and move on just like you would if someone were to insult your favorite movie/director. Avoiding the urge to come to its defense is the same reason you don't get into a debate with LordSimen over a horror movie: its a waste of your valuable time and you'll never come to a mutual agreement.

Just my perspective....

[Natty]

So when someone says "Christianity is dumb." etc, just let it go and move on just like you would if someone were to insult your favorite movie/director.

True. The best thing to do is ignore/walk away so after Bake has responded that's what I'll do.

[labialover]

But here's something you might have to come to accept: Some of us really hate religion......just like some of us really hate Michael Bay.

I like Michael Bay more than religion.

[Pentangeli]

Word. Let me put it this way: I like you Natty. I think you're a cool chap, as I'm sure many other Schmoes here do as well.

But here's something you might have to come to accept: Some of us really hate religion......just like some of us really hate Michael Bay. So yes, occasionally, we'll be taking pot shots at Jesus. We don't mean it with the intention to insult you personally or your beliefs, we meant it to insult the awful people that perpetuate evil in the name of your beliefs. So when someone says "Christianity is dumb." etc, just let it go and move on just like you would if someone were to insult your favorite movie/director.

To insult individuals who commit evil deeds in the name of a belief, is one thing. But that's not what you're doing. You're attacking an entire belief structure which doesn't advocate such "evils". Your reasoning is illogical.

Furthermore, your rationale doesn't seem to be extended to other religions. Why is it you find it appropriate to attack Christianity, and yet keep as quiet as a mouse in regard to Judaism or Islam?

[Smiert Spionam]

I'm gonna give this to you in bullet points, because I know how much you love those....

1. My post was for Natty, not you. So joining in on the exchange I'm having with him in order to avoid the fact that your thread is fucking stupid and everyone agrees is pretty lame.
2. At present, I have yet to insult ANY religion, so there goes that.
3. Yes, my post was a broad generalization, but its virtually impossible to name EVERYONE who uses religion as a means to persecute, control, and spew hateful opinions because they're far too many of them, especially here in AMERICA, where you don't live.
4. I CHOSE CHRISTIANITY AS MY EXAMPLE BECAUSE NATTY IS A CHRISTIAN. I'm not solely advocating insulting Christians, so quit trying to make something out of nothing, keeping in mind that I, again, never insulted anyone's beliefs............yet.
5. Quiet as a mouse? WTF are you even talking about?
6. This thread is still fucking stupid.

[The Postmaster General]

Hey Bubba, look...

What?

It those non-personal/objectified, insightful statements that don't perpetuate circular arguments.

Why do they look so small?

That's because they are so far above everyone's head.

Oh, I see.

[Pentangeli]

"As quiet as a mouse", its a simile, idiom, of sorts.

And nobody's forcing you to write on this thread. If everyone thought it was stupid and beneath them, the thread would have slipped away into an abyss, or just slipped down the thread listing, probably the latter is most likely.

[The Postmaster General]

"As quiet as a mouse", its a simile, idiom, of sorts.

And nobody's forcing you to write on this thread. If everyone thought it was stupid and beneath them, the thread would have slipped away into an abyss, or just slipped down the thread listing, probably the latter is most likely.


It's funny that out of the previous two posts I made, that's the one you responded to.

[Preston_79]

I've never said Jews run Hollywood.


Jew's by in large do run Hollywood and I for one am not complaining. They've put out some awesome shit in my lifetime. Well done Jews.

[The Postmaster General]

This is like a throwback to the Lynn7 days.

Here, I got something Pent can address - Christians are responsible for all the evils in the world.

I don't really believe that, but it should make for a lot of back and forth responses.

[Hey Man]

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2009/10/28/catholic-league-blasts-larry-david-curb-episode-urinates-jesus/

In the U.S media, there's a constant attack on Christianity. Yet whenever somebody has the guts to speak out about the asinine drivel that is Judaism, such views aren't accepted, and often people hide behind their ethnicity to prevent any attacks on the ideological belief.

What Larry David did was a disgrace. I wonder if he would find it funny if someone pissed on a Synagogue. Lets find out...

Sorry to piss on your theory, but what he did was hilarious. It was a picture of Jesus Christ - which I could have drawn for example. It doesn't become automatically sacred.

[The Postmaster General]

Hey, DC's in the house, jump for joy!

[Hey Man]

I also think in this day and age - if one gets offended at something depicted in a TV show or movie, just shut the fuck up and get over it - life is too short to not have a sense of humor.

[Buck Turgidson]

I've never said Jews run Hollywood.That's rich.This is like a throwback to the Lynn7 days.:(

[Gilpesh]

Sorry to piss on your theory, but what he did was hilarious. It was a picture of Jesus Christ - which I could have drawn for example. It doesn't become automatically sacred.
I've drawn pictures of Jesus. And I really hope they aren't automatically sacred. I mean... I keep them with other drawings, and I hope that they don't start crying or bleeding, ruining my other drawings in the process.

[Pentangeli]

It's funny that out of the previous two posts I made, that's the one you responded to.
I'm sorry Bubba, but I haven't responded to either of your two posts. That which you replied to was a response to Smiert Spionam.

[Pentangeli]

Sorry to piss on your theory, but what he did was hilarious. It was a picture of Jesus Christ - which I could have drawn for example. It doesn't become automatically sacred.
I'm not entirely sure which theory you think you're pissing on, but you've missed the target. The issue is the double standard, where some religions are protected.

[Pentangeli]

That's rich.:(

If you believe I have, provide the quote.

[Buck Turgidson]

The frowny face goes with the subsequent comment.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm sorry Bubba, but I haven't responded to either of your two posts. That which you replied to was a response to Smiert Spionam.

That's too bad because I feel I made a pretty sound and reasonable response as to why what Larry David did doesn't show a double standard but instead is a little more complicated and logical than you are making things out to be.

If it's of any interest to you, discussing something that can't be addressed via Chick Tracts in a style of Cross Fire Jr., my initial response is here - http://www.joblo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3137069&postcount=46

If you'd rather not be presented with new ideas and continue addressing things that are of a black and white, us vs. them nature, you can look at Classic JoBlo threads.

Here's a thread on teachers being forced to drop lessons on the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslim students:

http://www.joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109539

You can take special interest in the posts by Lynn7 and BeenThere's posts, as they reflect your feeling of a double standard.

[Pentangeli]

I did read them first time round. Despite the absence of a response, I haven't been ignoring you. Your post was full of statements which completely overlook what the main issue is -- double standards. You can't possibly expect me to waste time with every post which has nothing to do with the point of my thread. Here's a few of the statements you made:

-----

There's also been scores and scores of jokes about Jews involvement in the entertainment industry - I want to say Hollywood Shuffle made some, but can't place any specific sources for sure. Along the same lines, there's the jokes with the over-the-top Jewish stereotype who's running slums. These types of jokes happen so often in media that it's hard to even recall specific examples.
Well try to think of examples. I can't think of any.

Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people.
You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data.

-----

This thread is, and always has been, about the double standards. It's not about an isolated mocking of Christianity, or indeed Christians' reaction to that, it's about putting it in context of how the media treats other religions.

If I'm wrong, please provide me of an example of a non-Jewish person disrespecting Judaism, equal to the severity that David disrespected Christianity.

[Smiert Spionam]

Family Guy, S3 E22, "When You Wish Upon a Weinstein" - Entire episode

Y'know, I imagine that it would be hard for you to truly see how the media depicts different religions in a country that you, again, don't even live in. It's like me saying "Oh, the British media is over-saturated with programs aimed at homosexuals. That's discriminating against the heterosexual majority!" which would be stupid, since I don't like in the UK and have never been.

[Pentangeli]

Family Guy, S3 E22, "When You Wish Upon a Weinstein" - Entire episode

Ricky Blitt, the writer, is Jewish.

And it doesn't sound like Judaism is being disrespected.

http://online-animated-films.suite101.com/article.cfm/wish_upon_a_star_lawsuit_thrown_out

I'll see if its on Youtube.

[The Heart Collector]

Anyone that got offended by that episode is a little baby.

A little goddamned baby.

There was nothing offensive about the scene. It's exactly the same as almost every scene in the entire series: Larry David does something completely inappropriate with no self-awareness whatsoever, and is looked at negatively for it. How could anyone possibly think that was a religious insult, other than being a whiny little baby that needs his diaper changed and some powder for its red ass? Only if you have never seen a single episode of this show could you possibly think anything bad about it.

[The Heart Collector]

Christians are the majority yes, but they are also the one group that people have no problem oppressing/insulting.

What a ridiculous and patently absurd comment. Christians in America don't get even remotely the same level of vitriol and harassment as Muslims.

The fact that you'd use the word "oppression" to refer to religious groups that actively prevent minorities (homosexuals) from obtaining equal civil rights is just downright offensive. Fuck all of those people. Who gives a shit if they're insulted.

[QUENTIN]

Larry David isn't Jewish. Ethnically, sure, but what we're talking all about here is religion and Larry David has been an athiest his entire adult life.

If I wrote a movie, as an agnostic, that had a scene making light of a Muslim practice, and someone identified it as an example of "Christians disrespecting Islam" because my parents practice a faith I don't believe in for a minute, well, I'd be upset and they'd be wrong. It'd be an athiest ribbing religion, not a person of a specific religion disrespecting another religion to make a critical point. In other words, it'd be just like this Larry David situation.

As noted, as an atheist, Larry David has made light of the faith and customs of Jews more than any other religious group on Curb, and also Muslims and Christians previously. In none of the examples is he disparaging the religion or offering a serious, scathing critique, but rather not taking the conviction seriously in order to set up a funny situation that offends another character on the show, creates a dilemma, and causes amusing hijinks. Another important point, brought up by Bubba, is that the peeing on the picture is totally unintentional. He's prescribed a medicine that makes his urine stream extra strong and someone else put a painting of Jesus near the toilet. The moment isn't "Argh! Fuck Christianity! I piss on your savior!" it's "Whoa! My pee is out control! Oh no, the painting! Whoops." So interpreting it as an attack of any sort is a spurious.

I'm trying to think of an equivalent to your whole argument, and the closest I can think of is someone who has never seen South Park watching an episode where Saddam and Satan are lovers and concluding it's another examples of religious folk pushing their hell is the afterlife for sinners views on the rest of us, criticizing Islam, and denigrating homosexuals. Heterosexuals never get that kind of treatment in the media!

It's just ignorant of the style and purpose of the show's humor, misinterprets the context and "message", not accurate to the history of what else they've made light of, and assumes a double standard where one simply does not exist for a show irreverent of everything under the sun.

[The Heart Collector]

Ricky Blitt, the writer, is Jewish.

And it doesn't sound like Judaism is being disrespected.


Larry David isn't a follower of Judaism either. You don't even know if Ricky Blitt is a practicing Jew.

You're mixing a lot of disparate elements here to come up with a ridiculous non-argument. It doesn't matter whether writers or comedians are ethnically Jewish or not, all it should matter is whether they practice the religion or not, since you're claiming a religious double standard, not a cultural one.


Anyway, as it should be blatantly obvious to anyone, most people don't know anything about almost any religion. The obvious religion to make fun of is Christianity, because people actually somewhat know about Christianity since the majority of the country is Christian. People make fun of Hinduism and Islam but in extremely general ways, because they don't know anything about it other than maybe there's some sort of elephant with arms they saw in The Simpsons and that oh ho ho muslims are poor and live in the desert, what a hoot. Since they don't know enough, they can't make enough jokes. Judaism is even less funny. The only concept of 'fun' that most people see in Judaism is funny hats and beards.

Questions about finding examples of Judaism-targetted humor in non-Judaism communities miss the point. The real question is, why would you even expect to find that?

People like Larry David and Woody Allen make fun of Judaism-related customs not because some sort of Jewish self-loathing, but because they know about it.

[The Postmaster General]

I did read them first time round. Despite the absence of a response, I haven't been ignoring you. Your post was full of statements which completely overlook what the main issue is -- double standards. You can't possibly expect me to waste time with every post which has nothing to do with the point of my thread. Here's a few of the statements you made:

Well, first off, you say I overlooked the main issue - the one about double standards, then as an example, you provide where I address the issue of a double standard. In fact, I started off my post talking about double standards, and I also conclude the post talking about double standards, and how they don't apply here.

Even more notable, that you claim to have read something you didn't feel directly attacked the issue you were noting, and instead of realizing that the topic is being expanded on, you ignore it in lieu of focusing on broader statements not addressing the double standard. That makes it seem like you don't want to discuss things and are only looking to argue.

Well try to think of examples. I can't think of any.

Hollywood Shuffle. It was written by a black man and produced by a gentile. The movie was purchased for distribution by the Jewish Samuel Godwin who said of the movie, "My gut tells me this is funny. I don't get it because I'm an old Jew.' The movie grossed about $8 million domestically."

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/carl_craig.htm


You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data.

Well, you said so yourself that only Jews make fun of Jews. This thread is full of examples and we could pull out more examples ranging from Woody Allen to Adam Sandler. If you don't want to accept your own basis for not accepting the mocking of Jews in Hollywood, and the lack of mocking of Christians or other religions by their own people, I'd love to see some examples of other religions mocking themselves more.

Of course, if you don't want to believe what up until you disagreed, seemed to be common knowledge on this thread, you can look sources that make Jewish humor notable by being "frequently self-critical and sometimes even self-deprecating." - quote taken from The Big Book of Jewish Humor.

I really can't believe that you are trying to argue that most Jewish humor doesn't make fun of Jewish culture. This seems like you are grasping for straws here, and trying to make me look out to be a fool.

Seriously, is anyone reading this going to argue that Jewish Humor isn't most widely recognized as self-depreciating?

The only question should be is if Jeff Foxworthy is the Larry David of rednecks.

This thread is, and always has been, about the double standards. It's not about an isolated mocking of Christianity, or indeed Christians' reaction to that, it's about putting it in context of how the media treats other religions.

It was your example of a double standard, not mine. If you don't think it's relevant, I guess this is something of an irrelevant point you are making now, isn't it?

If I'm wrong, please provide me of an example of a non-Jewish person disrespecting Judaism, equal to the severity that David disrespected Christianity.

Well, for starters, I explained how it's not as disrespectful as you are making it out to be, and I even asked you to show me where in The Bible is provides scripture saying it's wrong to piss on a picture of Jesus, and even went a bit further to point out that based on scripture, the actual sacrilege is making a picture of Jesus (it's in the 10 Commandments, so you don't even need to Google Book Search past the first book)

But for some reason, you decided that this had nothing to do with a double standard and chose to ignore it, or to remain ignorant, or to pretend you are doing as such, whichever way you want to look at it.

Secondly, you have been provided examples of non-Jews making fun of Jews, yet, you chose to again ignore these things.


Sorry Pent - You are the one sharing the unpopular view, so despite your positioning, and despite the fact that I have provided examples, and have backed up what I'm saying --- It's really you who are failing to provide any proof, since that burden is on you, not everyone else. No one is trying to change your mind, but I won't deny many people are having a walk in the park-styled field day showing how utterly wrong you are. If you want to keep making the same blanket statements without proof to back them up (the same statements you cite me for making) -- knock yourself out.

Discussions are a lot of fun, and it's nice having one with a person with a different perspective, no matter how rooted in cognitive distortions that perspective may be.

[Smiert Spionam]

Sorry Pent - You are the one sharing the unpopular view, so despite your positioning, and despite the fact that I have provided examples, and have backed up what I'm saying --- It's really you who are failing to provide any proof, since that burden is on you, not everyone else.

Pent is a big fan of asking people to provide "proof" of things, meanwhile, contributing no findings of his own....

Ask him his opinion on Alexander the Great's homosexuality, which is widely considered common knowledge.

[Pentangeli]

Alexander the Great's homosexuality, which is widely considered common knowledge.

Excellent point, Smiert. The popular belief that Alexander was bisexual, despite there being no evidence to support it, just goes to show how asinine the popular opinion sometimes is.

[Smiert Spionam]

Great way to avoid everything that several posters all painstaking typed and directed at you, Pent.
Kudos...

[Pentangeli]

Hollywood Shuffle. It was written by a black man and produced by a gentile. The movie was purchased for distribution by the Jewish Samuel Godwin who said of the movie, "My gut tells me this is funny. I don't get it because I'm an old Jew.' The movie grossed about $8 million domestically."

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/carl_craig.htm
The link doesn't work. Is that the film with Ivory Wayans?

Of course, if you don't want to believe what up until you disagreed, seemed to be common knowledge on this thread, you can look sources that make Jewish humor notable by being "frequently self-critical and sometimes even self-deprecating." - quote taken from The Big Book of Jewish Humor.
In that book will I find the data that you have used to formulate your assertion that, in your words: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people".

Sorry Pent - You are the one sharing the unpopular view
I've never cared about popularity contests. The "unpopular view" does not refer to its legitimacy.

people are having a walk in the park-styled field day showing how utterly wrong you are.
A few people have suggested material which allegedly contradicts my view. BCV mentioned Life of Brian, which does mock Judaism, as well as Christianity, but its quite tame, and a lot of material was censored/cut out of the film. An episode of Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle were also mentioned, and I will get round to watching them soon.

If you want to keep making the same blanket statements without proof to back them up
My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity. I'm hardly going to cite every output from the U.S media. At the moment, none of yous have proved me wrong -- pending Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle.

it's nice having one with a person with a different perspective, no matter how rooted in cognitive distortions that perspective may be.
There's no need for that. Let's keep this civil.

PS. Smiert, one post at a time, lad. I'm unable to reply to everyone at once.

[QUENTIN]

My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity.

David is a non-jew and he has disrespected Judaism and Islam just as much.

Bill Maher's Religulous: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

is about a non-jew athiest disrespecting, mocking, deriding, criticizing, and hating on Christianity (and Islam and Judaism, but Christianity gets the bulk of the mocking) for 100 solid minutes. It was released by "the media."

[Pentangeli]

Larry David isn't Jewish. Ethnically, sure, but what we're talking all about here is religion and Larry David has been an athiest his entire adult life.
You're saying that non-Jews have ridiculed Judaism. Ok, I accept your point.

But still I ask, when has Judaism ever been mocked to the degree of Larry David pissing on a Christian icon -- whether intentional or otherwise?

As noted, as an atheist, Larry David has made light of the faith and customs of Jews more than any other religious group on Curb, and also Muslims
I haven't seen all the episodes. What would be a good episode to watch regarding the severity with which Larry David mocks/makes fun of Judaism and Islam?

[Pentangeli]

Bill Maher's Religulous: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

is about a non-jew athiest disrespecting, mocking, deriding, criticizing, and hating on Christianity (and Islam and Judaism, but Christianity gets the bulk of the mocking) for 100 solid minutes. It was released by "the media."

Precisely my observation.

[Shinigami]

Well, from my experiences attacks on Christianity are a lot more popular, specific, derisive and everyday in the media than attacks on Judaism. These experiences are so constant that I think they ought to be obvious to anybody who is exposed to television. This ought to be a "duh" point. But it's not a double standard, right? Judaism isn't as prevalent in mainstream US talking points as Christianity is. Judaism isn't as noisy in the US public arena as Christiainity. There is an anti-religious voice in America and it starts its beef with Christiainity because Christianity is at the American forefront in the melodramatic back and forth between people of faith and people without.

The thread's "suggestion" doesn't really make sense to me yet unless I'm excusing it as an agenda piece. If you come to find the most popular and domestically-understood item is also the most talked about, why would you think automatically think double standard. Why would you use an out of context arbitrary example from a television show you don't watch as a starting point unless you've already formulated the idea, and if you've already formulated this conspiratorial suspicion I don't think very many people are going to continue bothering.

plzzzzzzzz

On the other hand, the quirks of mainstream censorship is an interesting talking point.

[The Heart Collector]

"My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity."

There is no disrespect to Christianity in the Curb Your Enthusiasm scene. After that scene, Jerry Seinfeld realizes what Larry did but they both keep quiet because they don't like the woman who owns the picture of Jesus (because she is slightly obese and wears low-cut shirts at the workplace, where Larry and Jerry are) and she has decided to quit her job. So since it benefits them, they keep quiet. It's not really disrespectful of the religion of Christianity, since the show isn't supportive of Larry's behavior. Portraying something on film does not mean that the creator agrees with those views, especially in this case: Larry David's entire character is 'guy that does horrible things'. I don't understand what you want from Curb Your Enthusiasm, or any show. Are Jews forbidden from portraying characters that do anything that could be interpreted as a slight on Christianity, or anything involving Christianity, regardless of the content? Because that's basically what you're advocating if you think this scene is inappropriate.

It is obvious that the scene isn't meant to be offensive towards religion. It's obvious because the scene, and the episode, wouldn't work otherwise. The humor of the episode comes from the fact that what happens is distasteful within the context of the episode, which the character knows. It's a funny scene because we know what happens is bad and is going to be perceived as rude, and it is a funny episode because since the character keeps hiding what he did, things spiral out of control, and he is ultimately caught. In that sense, the scene isn't disrespectful towards Christianity, it's respectful. It's respectful because it assumes that the audience will look at what happened as being a big deal and a reasonable cause for anger.

Anyway, there's a billion examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. They include the movie Saved!, the television show The Book of Daniel... hell, one of the biggest books in years, The Da Vinci Code, has ideas that are much more openly blasphemous than Larry David accidentally pissing on an image because he plays a douchy character. Stop looking for Jew conspiracies everywhere, you're coming across as seriously deranged and bigoted.

[ericdraven]

One is a choice and the other isn't, so no.

I remember Richard Dawkins selling millons of copies of his book, The God Delusion. So, I guess there IS a voice.

[Hey Man]

I don't understand how anyone could disagree with the fact that the world would be such a better place if religion didn't exist.

[The Postmaster General]

The link doesn't work. Is that the film with Ivory Wayans?

The link works fine for me. Maybe your area has sites like this blocked or something. I'd be interested to know if it worked for other people.

Here is the link again.

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...carl_craig.htm

There's Wayans in the film, but you might be thinking I'm Gonna Get You Sucka. Hollywood Shuffle is primary Robert Townsend's send up of how blacks are portrayed in the media.

You may also want to check out Fear of a Black Hat, which is sort of a This is Spinal Tap for early gangster rap. In the movie, their manager is named Rabinow, a play on the colors used in Jewish names. The manager is also very stereotypical, with the "Vhats?" and so have you. This was a movie writen, directed, and produced by African-Americans, though I don't know their religion.

In that book will I find the data that you have used to formulate your assertion that, in your words: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people".

Again, I'm not sure that you really don't believe that they do.

You stated so yourself that Jewish jokes are primarily made by Jewish writers, so that statement right there would imply that closer to 100% of the time Jewish people make Jewish jokes.

If you want to now say that most Christian jokes are made by Christian writers, or all Muslim jokes are made by Muslim writers, etc., that's fine, but it also diminishes your stance on a double standard, as we are showing that primarily only religious folks make fun of their own religion, and in turn the examples you cite of Jews making fun of other religions are just as infrequent as the examples people have cited of other religions being made fun of.

You can't have it both ways, pal. Either all the Jew jokes are made by Jews, or Jews aren't the most self-mocking of the writers who identify themselves by religion.

So, you choose. If you want to keep arguing against one of the fundaments of your reasoning for citing a double standard, you can join in with the fun everyone else is having.

Not to mention, I haven't even started on the portrayal of Muslims by non-Muslim media sources. One example is Soul Plane.

I've never cared about popularity contests. The "unpopular view" does not refer to its legitimacy.

Well, I was stating this in the context of proving an argument, which, when there's 100 people saying one thing, and 1 person saying something else, it's not really up to the 100 people to prove something to that 1 person. I respect that your the resident Lone Wolf and that's cool by me, but don't think your making any points by doing what you say I'm not making points by doing.

In the context you are using "popularity" though, boy-oh-boy, you continue to pile on the contradictions.

You don't care about popular view, yet you start taking issue with the views of other religion in mainstream media. Meh, what's up Doc?


A few people have suggested material which allegedly contradicts my view. BCV mentioned Life of Brian, which does mock Judaism, as well as Christianity, but its quite tame, and a lot of material was censored/cut out of the film. An episode of Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle were also mentioned, and I will get round to watching them soon.

Okay, and in the meantime, I'll be watching the works of Sacha Baron Cohen, Woody Allen, Ben Stiller, Jerry Seinfeld, Sarah Silverman, Larry David, Mel Brooks and many others, all the while being on the look out for all these other cultures that defame their own.

My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity. I'm hardly going to cite every output from the U.S media. At the moment, none of yous have proved me wrong -- pending Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle.

My example of Hollywood Shuffle was in response to you saying there was no stereotypical treatment of Jewish characters by non Jewish writers.

Secondly, you still haven't taken it upon yourself to show how the bit in question was actually so deeply sacrilege. As I've now stated three times, making an image of Jesus is something that appears to be forbidden in the 10 Commandments. I might be wrong, and maybe that commandment was Amended, and I've asked to be taught if that's the case.

Still yet though, I've yet to see anything showing how peeing on a picture of Jesus disrespects the tenants of Christianity (compared to drawings of Muhammad, which directly disrespect tenants of Islam)

There's no need for that. Let's keep this civil.

No, you missed it. That was an old Jewish joke. Nah, I'm just fucking around. I didn't think you'd take umbrage with that, because you generally seem to have a sense of humor and I've never taken you to be the sort who thinks I would just fling mud at you in bad spirits. If you would rather I didn't joke as often, that's cool.


You're saying that non-Jews have ridiculed Judaism. Ok, I accept your point.

But still I ask, when has Judaism ever been mocked to the degree of Larry David pissing on a Christian icon -- whether intentional or otherwise?

I haven't seen all the episodes. What would be a good episode to watch regarding the severity with which Larry David mocks/makes fun of Judaism and Islam?

Please define how severe this is, because I think most people here aren't that convinced that it's that severe and understand that the joke was taken out of context.

As I stated earlier, I'm surprised the pissing on a picture issue is being played up, when I would suspect the whole false-belief thing surrounding seeing signs from God would have been a bigger issue for people.

Well, from my experiences attacks on Christianity are a lot more popular, specific, derisive and everyday in the media than attacks on Judaism. These experiences are so constant that I think they ought to be obvious to anybody who is exposed to television. This ought to be a "duh" point. But it's not a double standard, right? Judaism isn't as prevalent in mainstream US talking points as Christianity is. Judaism isn't as noisy in the US public arena as Christiainity. There is an anti-religious voice in America and it starts its beef with Christiainity because Christianity is at the American forefront in the melodramatic back and forth between people of faith and people without.

The thread's "suggestion" doesn't really make sense to me yet unless I'm excusing it as an agenda piece. If you come to find the most popular and domestically-understood item is also the most talked about, why would you think automatically think double standard. Why would you use an out of context arbitrary example from a television show you don't watch as a starting point unless you've already formulated the idea, and if you've already formulated this conspiratorial suspicion I don't think very many people are going to continue bothering.



I suggested to him that it probably boils down to Jews already make so much fun of themselves, they take all the good jokes from everyone else. It's like a kid I knew in school who would always rag on himself for wearing K-Mart clothes, having big glasses, and being an all around dork. There was nothing no one could say to that guy that he hadn't already insulted himself with before. When people would try, he'd just outdo them. On one occasion someone tried to fight him, and surprise the dorky guy knew how to beat the shit out of people. Man, I wonder what happened to that guy --- probably working in Hollywood.

Anyway, he wanted to ignore the point of Jews making so much fun of themselves that there's no good jokes left in lieu of talking about providing statistics, and treating generalized truthisms as absolutes.

Anyway, there's a billion examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. They include the movie Saved!, the television show The Book of Daniel... hell, one of the biggest books in years, The Da Vinci Code, has ideas that are much more openly blasphemous than Larry David accidentally pissing on an image because he plays a douchy character. Stop looking for Jew conspiracies everywhere, you're coming across as seriously deranged and bigoted.

Yeah, but did they piss on a velvet painting of Jesus? Did they?



Hey, has anyone seen Born in East LA?

[JoBlo]

I saw the episode and thought it was "okay funny", but not really that hilarious! (I don't like when they exaggerate something to the point of unbelievability -- would ANYONE really believe that a picture of Jesus hanging right above the urinal would be "crying"....gimme a break!).

But to anyone who is saying that he was "pissing" on a Christian symbol...he was PISSING INTO THE TOILET, but the "splash" from his piss flew up and one of the drops landed on the image of Jesus.

I don't really care one way or the other, since I'm not religious either, but he wasn't PISSING ON the symbol....it was just a ricochet... ;)

[The Postmaster General]

I saw the episode and thought it was "okay funny", but not really that hilarious! (I don't like when they exaggerate something to the point of unbelievability -- would ANYONE really believe that a picture of Jesus hanging right above the urinal would be "crying"....gimme a break!).

But to anyone who is saying that he was "pissing" on a Christian symbol...he was PISSING INTO THE TOILET, but the "splash" from his piss flew up and one of the drops landed on the image of Jesus.

I don't really care one way or the other, since I'm not religious either, but he wasn't PISSING ON the symbol....it was just a ricochet... ;)

This is a very good point the thread has been deflected from. This was one of my original reasons for questioning why the pissing issue is being played up so much more than making fun of false-beliefs (that God gives signs to believers)

[FireCaptain4]

I wonder what input Leo Getz has to offer in this thread?

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/b/b9/LW45leo.jpg/600px-LW45leo.jpg

"Well, stop turning everything around. You're so damned touchy... I didn't call you names, ya fuckface! Don't start now! "

[Natty]

The fact that you'd use the word "oppression" to refer to religious groups that actively prevent minorities (homosexuals) from obtaining equal civil rights is just downright offensive. Fuck all of those people. Who gives a shit if they're insulted.

If you read the earlier posts you'll see that I've already dealt with my use of the word oppression, it was actually the other side of the arguement that initially used the term, I mean insulted/disrespected.

Again, this is a States thing so I won't get too involved/passionate about it, Christians over here (despite still being insulted) aren't evil and gays have their rights.

[Pentangeli]

Anyway, there's a billion examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. They include the movie Saved!, the television show The Book of Daniel... hell, one of the biggest books in years, The Da Vinci Code, has ideas that are much more openly blasphemous than Larry David accidentally pissing on an image because he plays a douchy character. Stop looking for Jew conspiracies everywhere, you're coming across as seriously deranged and bigoted.
Of course there are many examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. I criticize (not mock or take the piss out of) some aspects of the faith.

Where have I said anything about a "Jew [conspiracy]"?

[Pentangeli]

The link works fine for me. Maybe your area has sites like this blocked or something. I'd be interested to know if it worked for other people.

Here is the link again.

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...carl_craig.htm
I get a 404 Not Found. If you're getting it to work it's probably an area issue i'm having.


you still haven't taken it upon yourself to show how the bit in question was actually so deeply sacrilege. As I've now stated three times, making an image of Jesus is something that appears to be forbidden in the 10 Commandments. I might be wrong, and maybe that commandment was Amended, and I've asked to be taught if that's the case.
Sacrilegous? It was an irreverent act toward a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity.
Graven images? Jesus was, as a man, not of Heaven, nor was he in the earth or water beneath, so therefore images of Jesus are acceptable.

No, you missed it. That was an old Jewish joke. Nah, I'm just fucking around. I didn't think you'd take umbrage with that, because you generally seem to have a sense of humor and I've never taken you to be the sort who thinks I would just fling mud at you in bad spirits. If you would rather I didn't joke as often, that's cool.
I didn't get it. Never heard it before. An definitely don't stop joking round, most of the time I think you're a funny guy. Just occasionally, like here, some of your jokes go over my head, for whatever reason.

[The Postmaster General]

I get a 404 Not Found. If you're getting it to work it's probably an area issue i'm having.

Jews probably knocked out your local hubs with matza ball cocktails.



Sacrilegous? It was an irreverent act toward a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity.
Graven images? Jesus was, as a man, not of Heaven, nor was he in the earth or water beneath, so therefore images of Jesus are acceptable.

He's part of the Holy Trinity though, right?. Isn't it Jews and non-Christians who don't believe he is one of the same with God? I don't fully understand. What I don't know about The Bible you could almost fill a book with.

[The Heart Collector]

Of course there are many examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. I criticize (not mock or take the piss out of) some aspects of the faith.

Where have I said anything about a "Jew [conspiracy]"?

That is how your posts are coming across, especially since you obviously are not even remotely concerned with practicing religious Jews, but just anyone that's ethnically Jewish.

[The Heart Collector]

Sacrilegous? It was an irreverent act toward a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity.

There's nothing wrong with the scene. This is something you are continously choosing to ignore.

In the scene, the act of Larry David peeing in a toilet and a drop accidentally falling on "a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity" is clearly portrayed as something bad. The character that does the peeing gets alarmed once he does it, realizes it's bad, and scurries out of the house he's in as fast as he can.

Are you saying it's sacrilegious to portray a character doing any act that might be considered 'sacrilegious' in any context?

[Pentangeli]

That is how your posts are coming across,
So that would a "no" then, you can't inform me of when I've mentioned a "Jew [conspiracy]".


Are you saying it's sacrilegious to portray a character doing any act that might be considered 'sacrilegious' in any context?
It was sacrilegious in its disrespect toward a picture of religious significance. They showed it as a bad thing and accidental, only so far as necessary ingredients for their farce.

On a separate note, I saw that Family Guy episode. Hilarious, it was, "i'm just not a hat person". But was it greatly disrespectful to Judaism? not in the least. Sure there were a few quips made, but really its the Irishman who gets the mocking here, for stupidly parting with his savings when confronted with a dodgy salesman. Weinstein was one of the nicest people in the history of animated people. Judaism was shown to be a very welcoming religion, but also one which requires time and dedication to fully enter into. And Optimus Prime is Jewish. Crazy nuns on the other hand...

[Inglorious]

This debate seems mostly healthy. Ive been following it since it's conception... but I see no end in sight. No offense to any parties but the thread organizer just comes across as if he wants to argue for the sake of it, just to win - and when this is "achieved" everyone can tell him he's right, because thats seemingly all he cares about. Terrific points have been brought up by nearly every participant in the thread, the he basically gives them a backseat treatment in lieu of further aguing.

Good debate, but its becoming less fruitful and more like beating a dead horse.

[Pentangeli]

This debate seems mostly healthy. Ive been following it since it's conception... but I see no end in sight. No offense to any parties but the thread organizer just comes across as if he wants to argue for the sake of it, just to win - and when this is "achieved" everyone can tell him he's right, because thats seemingly all he cares about. Terrific points have been brought up by nearly every participant in the thread, the he basically gives them a backseat treatment in lieu of further aguing.

Good debate, but its becoming less fruitful and more like beating a dead horse.

Yet instead of making a valuable contribution, you've decided to make insulting remarks which carry no weight whatsoever.

A few individuals have made valuable contributions to this thread, offering the names of various films and tv shows. It will take time for me to get a hold of them. I haven't brushed their posts under the carpet.

As BCV can tell you, regarding the Mel Gibson's divorce thread, I do admit i'm wrong if indeed its proven.

As others can tell you, regarding the adoption thread on the politics forum, my views aren't set in stone, and do evolve when appropriate.

The same will apply to this thread, if and when appropriate.

For you to make a snap judgement based upon nothing but a hunch is not something to encourage on this site, because essentially it comes down to you being insulting.

[Buck Turgidson]

Jews probably knocked out your local hubs with matza ball cocktails.Was that a Fridays reference? :D

I think Bubba has the best idea. Passive resistance/ridicule is probably the best weapon available to us. I would like to be able to spell things out and have a real argument about what (and who) is really going on, but it's not worth risking my status here. I've taken the bait and participated in this nonsense too much already.

[Inglorious]

Yet instead of making a valuable contribution, you've decided to make insulting remarks which carry no weight whatsoever.

A few individuals have made valuable contributions to this thread, offering the names of various films and tv shows. It will take time for me to get a hold of them. I haven't brushed their posts under the carpet.

As BCV can tell you, regarding the Mel Gibson's divorce thread, I do admit i'm wrong if indeed its proven.

As others can tell you, regarding the adoption thread on the politics forum, my views aren't set in stone, and do evolve when appropriate.

The same will apply to this thread, if and when appropriate.

For you to make a snap judgement based upon nothing but a hunch is not something to encourage on this site, because essentially it comes down to you being insulting.

No, I was just pointing out that I see this thread ending in a banning or two, because its not going to end until everyone praises you and assures you that you are right. No matter what evidence they provide, your argument changes to further debunk their stance/information.

Your post shows exactly what I was getting at, its not about the spirit of the debate itself, its whether your opinion is right or wrong, and in your mind it is obviously very right and those of others are wrong.

This thread has been enjoyable and it was not my intention to "make insulting remarks which carry no weight whatsoever". I made not one insulting remark, and prefaced my comment by stating that no one should see it that way. I simply criticized the direction in which this thread has started going, it doesnt look pretty for the near future of it.

And to risk further trouble, thats all I will say on the matter. I do not want to be banned after all this time.

[Pentangeli]

because its not going to end until everyone praises you and assures you that you are right.
You have that opinion, but its based on a hunch, nothing more.

As I've already explained, I have participated on previous threads where my opinion has changed when appropriate.

I made not one insulting remark, and prefaced my comment by stating that no one should see it that way..
By accusing me, "the thread organizer", of arguing for its own sake, you're being unequivocally insulting.

Lets keep it civil, and lets keep to the issue of this thread.

[The Postmaster General]

Was that a Fridays reference? :D

It is now! :)


I think Bubba has the best idea. Passive resistance/ridicule is probably the best weapon available to us.

I think it's a pretty important point that has been ignored and distorted. I'll point out just how badly it's been distorted, although I already touched on it, I wanted to see how many more times Pent would misquote me in an effort to demand that I provide statistics before he'll address the point.

But first, the set-up for that punchline...

Terrific points have been brought up by nearly every participant in the thread, the he basically gives them a backseat treatment in lieu of further aguing.

Yes, not just a backseat treatment, but in the case of my point about "jews taking all the good jokes" --- a pretty obvious point (one that was at the basis of his original refutal of everyone else's mentioning of Jewish jokes in Hollywood) was distorted a quoted out of context of a complete sentence.



In that book will I find the data that you have used to formulate your assertion that, in your words: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people".

Then in this post:


Bubba: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people."

You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data.


So where is he getting his quote from?


Something else, I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people.



So whereas I'm, for the sake of discussion, suggesting that I think Jews have the highest rate... Pent has attempted to make it appear that I'm making a definitive statement based on statistics, and in response asking me to provide those statistics to prove my point.

Yet, my point wasn't that, as a fact, Jews have the highest... but that it would appear that they do?

Where would I draw such ideas from?

Statements such as these...

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people.

So, Pent says that MOST Jewish jokes are from Jewish people, yet when I say, "I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people." as a lead in to saying that maybe it's just that Jews have taken all the best jokes, he refuses to address that point, and instead demands that I provide statistical data to validate what I've said.

Sorry, this isn't in the spirit of a good discussion, or even good debate.

Let's look at his responses to some of the links people have provided him.

Quentin's links don't work for me, maybe its only for Americans.

The link doesn't work.

I get a 404 Not Found. If you're getting it to work it's probably an area issue i'm having.

Now while the last two statements are responding to the same link, I thought it was important to quote the last one for the people who are familiar with the difference between 404 and 403 errors. The idea here being that somehow whenever anyone his area tries to access the site, it's nowhere to be found, but when someone else tries to access it moments earlier/later, it can be found, and this is probably because he's not in America, because 404 is a generic code that basically means you can't open a webpage.

Of course I observe and process these things right of the bat, but choose to ignore them. I have a bad tendency to not address certain things I see that I notice are clearly wrong (like the misquoting of me, for example) in order to see if the spirit of a good discussion will prevail and things will continue moving forward in a constructive manner --- It's an awful habit, and I really am as dumb as I'm made out to be. I mean, for fuck's sake, I even said Jewish people make most the Jewish jokes without being able to provide statistics to back up that statement. As Bugs Bunny would most likely say of me, "What a maroon?"

But as I'll always respond back to that pesky whabbit, "What's up, Doc?"

I'm down, man. I'm sooo down with people. It's, as the Jewish hippies say, "Totally groovy, vhell at least 9/10ths groovy. Maybe not so much on Saturday, though, but whadda ya gonna do?"

[Pentangeli]

So, Pent says that MOST Jewish jokes are from Jewish people, yet when I say, "I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people." as a lead in to saying that maybe it's just that Jews have taken all the best jokes, he refuses to address that point, and instead demands that I provide statistical data to validate what I've said.


Jews having a self-depreciating humor, and I agree they do, is not the same as considering they have the "highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people". How do you know that Christians or...Muslims? or Hindus don't have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people? or if we look at groups outside of religion, how do you know the Irish don't have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor? I doubt there is any data for such matters. So in the absence of data, and even though you are only "pretty sure" that what you're saying is true, what has convinced you to be "pretty sure"?

[The Postmaster General]

How do you know that Christians or...Muslims? or Hindus don't have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people?

:rolleyes:

Now post the stats which are in context of the thread, i.e post the demographs of those in high up positions in the media (writers, producers, directors etc). Mostly Christians? I think not.

What gets me is the double standards. You say its an expression of beliefs, but what if someone got a yamaka and pissed in it, to show their contempt for Judaism, do you honestly think it would get approval from media producers.

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely. And certainly you wouldn't see a Christian or Muslim pissing on something of significance to the Jewish faith.

you can look sources that make Jewish humor notable by being "frequently self-critical and sometimes even self-deprecating." - quote taken from The Big Book of Jewish Humor.

Do a Google search of "Jewish humor frequently self mocking" and all the links on the first page are about Jewish humor. Do a search for "Christian humor frequently self mocking" and it isn't until the third hit that you get a link about religion - and that's about Jewish humor. Do a search for "Muslim humor frequently self mocking" and it isn't until the 6th link that you get something about religion - and that's about Lewis Black mocking Jews. Do a Google search for "self mocking religion" and the first hit you get on the subject, is this thread, but the next hit is about Jewish humor.

Show me the sources where other religions are noted as being CHARACTERIZED as self-mocking, and give it to me in the frequency as the sources about Jews being self-mocking.

Woody Allen
Sacha Baron Cohen
Jerry Seinfeld
Sarah Silverman
2 Live Jews
Lewis Black
David Cross
Jon Lovitz (aka Chanukah Harry)
Joan Rivers
Seth Rogan
Judd Apatow
Andy Samberg
Mel Brooks


That's a short list, and anytime you want to jump in and prove me wrong by starting a list of non-Jewish comedians that mock their own religion, feel free, but again, I really don't think that anyone else is denying that Jewish humor is notable for being self-depreciating or self-mocking.

If you have proof otherwise, feel free, but as it stands you aren't proving anything, much less, much, much less, disproving anything by asking my to provide statistics on something you know damn well no one has sat down and created statistics on.

Let me approach this another way --- Please educate and enlighten me on why you would think other cultures are as self mocking by their comedians as those of Jewish background. The only examples I can think of would be Jeff Foxworthy making fun of rednecks, and Eddie Izzard making fun of Catholics, but I'm hard pressed to think of examples that are as easy to come by or as totally obvious as those of Jewish background making fun of Jewish culture. I know there are plenty, but the point is that when people said there's Jewish jokes from the media, your IMMEDIATE response was that MOST of them are from Jewish comedians. So explain to me how you aren't validating this statement I'm presuming, when it's obvious by your own retort that it's very easy to identify Jews as being the source of MOST Jewish jokes, yet when it comes to other religions - you say most of those all come from Jews as well, hence your assertion of a double standard. You are saying there's a double standard because Jews don't get made fun of like other religions, but all the examples of jokes about Jews are non admissible because they come from Jews.

Oh what a tangled web you've weaved.

[Pentangeli]

That's a short list, and anytime you want to jump in and prove me wrong by starting a list of non-Jewish comedians that mock their own religion, feel free, but again, I really don't think that anyone else is denying that Jewish humor is notable for being self-depreciating or self-mocking.
What you've done is show that there are Jewish people with a self-depreciating humor. And I accept that.

The most "self-depreciated humor of a group of people" is what you claimed, and that remains to be seen.

---

Back to the topic at hand, this thread is about religions not being treated equally by the U.S media. I believe Christianity is treated with greater severity and scorn than other religions. And my view will remain so, until I see evidence to the contrary.

If people wish to prove me wrong, and believe they can, then they can freely provide me with examples of other religions being treated in a disrespectful manner by the U.S media. And some of you have provided me with examples, and I'll be looking into them.

[The Postmaster General]

What you've done is show that there are Jewish people with a self-depreciating humor. And I accept that.

The most "self-depreciated humor of a group of people" is what you claimed, and that remains to be seen.


The occurance of self-criticism as a detriment may explain how it is that a number of the most apt jokes... have grown up on the soil of Jewish popular life. They are stories created by Jews and directed against Jewish characteristics... Incidentally, I do not know whether there are many other instances of a people making fun to such a degree of its own character.
- Sigmund Freud, Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconsciousness.

Sorry, Pent, I've yet to see you provide any evidence to say otherwise. You are failing to prove that there is a double standard, and this isn't an a matter of Jews taking all the good Jewish jokes.


I'm not sure trying to pretend like my point has nothing to do with the topic at hand is going to help you deflect this key, and unique, point that more and more people here are agreeing with. Although I'm sure if you continue to proposition responses, someone will wander in here and make an unrelated post you're able to argue with in the manner of which you've prepared yourself to do because it's been done a million times already (although I can't provide statistics to show that, so what do I know.)

Oddly enough, it's hard to find statistics proving that people like to drink water.

[Pentangeli]

I'm not sure trying to pretend like my point has nothing to do with the topic at hand is going to help you deflect this key, and unique, point

Oddly enough, it's hard to find statistics proving that people like to drink water.

Jews are self-depreciating, I already agreed with that.

You claim they are the most self-depreciating out of any group. And I don't see that being true, sorry, there's just no facts i've seen which support your case there.

Water is a necessity, so that's slightly different.

Back on topic, I plan to see Hollywood Shuffle soon, hopefully someone can mention the specific episodes of Curb which were greatly disrespectful to Judaism and Islam. And then when i've seen those I'll be able to comment. In the meantime, moe examples would be appreciated.

[The Heart Collector]

It was sacrilegious in its disrespect toward a picture of religious significance. They showed it as a bad thing and accidental, only so far as necessary ingredients for their farce.

So in other words, it is not ok to portray anything involving religious beliefs in comedy, regardless of context. Yes?

[The Postmaster General]

Jews are self-depreciating, I already agreed with that.

You claim they are the most self-depreciating out of any group. And I don't see that being true, sorry, there's just no facts i've seen which support your case there.

Then who do you think is the most self-depreciating group, or at least list some groups you think are more self-depreciating. You can't just keep saying "it ain't" without saying what it is. That's the difference between having a discussion with a person and banging your head into a brick wall.

If you keep making people feel like your only contribution is saying others don't have valid points, "just because", you are going to run out of people who are amicable enough to want to have these types of discussions and I think that would be very sad, because I, for one, enjoy dissent and opposing views, but not in a manner of just having it validated that people do have opposing views. If I wanted to have a discussion about that, I'd only need to speak to my like-minded friends, and well, actually you can't have a discussion about that. If you are going to keep doing this, I'd recommend you'd be better off using the blog function available on your Movie Fan Central profile.

Water is a necessity, so that's slightly different.

Paying rent is a necessity too. That doesn't mean people like doing it. Again though, that's an example of you ignoring points for the sake of pretending like I'm not talking to a person and programing MS-DOS or BASIC. I'm half waiting for you to start responding, "SYNTAX ERROR AT LINE 12" You are not a dense person and I find it hard to accept that you don't get that my point was that I can't provide statistics because there are none.

And lest not forget that you yourself have stated that a) Jews make the most jokes about Jews, b) Jews also make the most jokes about every other religion. --- That in itself, no matter whether this is the 3rd time or 4th time you've avoided this point, this is demonstration enough that you have stated what I stated before I even stated it, and only after I stated it did you position yourself to state otherwise. At most optimistic, that's a state of denial, and I am stating facts here as to how you yourself have asserted that Jews are responsible for both most the jokes against religions and most of the jokes for themselves. So if they have the most, then how can you claim another group has more.

Back on topic, I plan to see Hollywood Shuffle soon, hopefully someone can mention the specific episodes of Curb which were greatly disrespectful to Judaism and Islam. And then when i've seen those I'll be able to comment.

Well, here again, you are either confused or distorting what I've said. I used Hollywood Shuffle as an example when you asked me to give some of Jews being portrayed as stereotypes, and I believe you are gearing up to tell us that you finally saw Shuffle and there was nothing as bad as accidentally getting urine on a cheesy oil painting of Jesus that was placed next to a toilet in a position where it would be susceptible to splash-back.

In the meantime, moe examples would be appreciated.

Hey, have you ever heard of this character named Borat? He was created by a man of Jewish heritage named Sacha Baron Cohen. I've mentioned his name twice before already.

Here is the character performing a song entitled, "Throw The Jews Down The Well"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3RHkY6Hms

Sorry, I think calling for the Holocaust of Jewish people trumps your example of someone accidentally getting a trinkle of urine on a painting of Jesus (which in itself hasn't been shown to not be sacrilege)


So in other words, it is not ok to portray anything involving religious beliefs in comedy, regardless of context. Yes?

I don't think he's said that, but I'm not ruling out that as the thread progresses, the likelihood of that being the point reaching "1".

[The Heart Collector]

The implication in his statement is that it does not matter whether the act is presented as 'bad' within the context of the work, since according to him the reason why its presented as that is to make a 'farce'.

[The Heart Collector]

I believe Christianity is treated with greater severity and scorn than other religions. And my view will remain so, until I see evidence to the contrary.

The first Muslim Congressman of the United States of America, Keith Ellison, was asked, by Glenn Beck, at the time working on CNN, part of the U.S. Media, to "prove that he is not working for America's enemies". Because he is a Muslim (he is not Arab).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbg604XqPY

That's pretty damning evidence. Someone who practices Islam, regardless of their position in American society and their origins, is painted with the same brush as Osama Bin Laden. That's beyond offensive.

[The Postmaster General]

The implication in his statement is that it does not matter whether the act is presented as 'bad' within the context of the work, since according to him the reason why its presented as that is to make a 'farce'.

Oh, I agree with this. That's contained within my response. It just hasn't come out. Based on what's actually been said, I think there's enough to work without getting into the further levels of what he might be thinking. I don't care, but will say that you are a much braver man than I am.

[Hey Man]

Pentangeli,

Unless I have missed it - why have you not acknowledged the vast difference between taking a picture of Jesus Christ, putting it on the floor and just unloading your piss on it as opposed to a not indended piss drop backsplash. It could have been a picture of dogs playing poker, but the result would have still been the same. Nothing to be offended about.

[Pentangeli]

So in other words, it is not ok to portray anything involving religious beliefs in comedy, regardless of context. Yes?
No, that's not what I said. You can see I haven't said that, its clear in the post of mine you quoted.

Then who do you think is the most self-depreciating group
I'm sorry Bubba, but its simply not what this thread is about. If you wish to believe Jewish people are the most self-depreciating people in the World, go with it. That's cool.

If you keep making people feel like your only contribution is saying others don't have valid points, "just because", you are going to run out of people who are amicable enough to want to have these types of discussions and I think that would be very sad, because I, for one, enjoy dissent and opposing views, but not in a manner of just having it validated that people do have opposing views. If I wanted to have a discussion about that, I'd only need to speak to my like-minded friends, and well, actually you can't have a discussion about that. If you are going to keep doing this, I'd recommend you'd be better off using the blog function available on your Movie Fan Central profile.
Thanks for the recommendation, but the thread is relevant here. People have made valuable contributions, as i've already mentioned. BCV mentioned Life of Brian. Smiert mentioned an episode of Family Guy. You mentioned Hollywood Shuffle. Quentin mentioned Curb as an entire series, and i'm hoping he can point me in the direction of a few specific episodes. And I ask for more examples.

Here is the character performing a song entitled, "Throw The Jews Down The Well"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3RHkY6Hms
The purpose of Borat is to expose and entice the bigotry of those around him. That's the humor of it. Same applies to Ali G and Bruno.


The first Muslim Congressman of the United States of America, Keith Ellison, was asked, by Glenn Beck, at the time working on CNN, part of the U.S. Media, to "prove that he is not working for America's enemies". Because he is a Muslim (he is not Arab).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbg604XqPY

That's pretty damning evidence. Someone who practices Islam, regardless of their position in American society and their origins, is painted with the same brush as Osama Bin Laden. That's beyond offensive.
That's terrible. What action was taken against Beck? Wikipedia has no mention of action against his statement. If no action was taken against Beck, I would say that's greater in severity than what Larry David did. I don't hear about anything like that where I live, and I don't get CNN. I can't recall anyone from Britain's mainstream media saying anything of that nature, neither can I imagine it. And thanks for that example. That's the kind of thing I was after.

[The Heart Collector]

Presumably you don't support a good character accidentally splashing piss on Jesus.

You don't support a bad character accidentally splashing piss on Jesus, according to this thread, because it is only portrayed as bad for 'farce'.

So in what context would you find a desecration of a picture of Jesus acceptable, other than having an evil villain do it?

Honestly when I saw the episode, I didn't find the scene even remotely offensive. Curb (and Seinfeld, for that matter) have had scenes that people did get offended with, not because of what happened, but because of the characters' reactions. Like Susan dying.

[QUENTIN]

Quentin mentioned Curb as an entire series, and i'm hoping he can point me in the direction of a few specific episodes.

Actually, in my first post I gave three specific episodes as examples and summarized what they're about. Each revolve significantly around making light of customs of Judaism or Islam, in the way that this episode that so offends you makes light of people thinking they're seeing miracles in inanimate objects (NOT desecrating Jesus, since it's accidental).

You said those links to the HBO episode guides weren't working for you. Odd, but those episodes again are The Ski Lift (ep # 48), The Survivor (ep #39), and The Blind Date (ep #33).

Though I'm gonna have to agree you don't seem at all open to discovering new information that may shape and change your opinion, you seem more concerned with telling people they're wrong or their examples don't fit in your increasingly narrow field of discussion. Meanwhile moving goal posts to claim a double standard that you've yet to demonstrate or provide evidence for despite many of the other participants in this discussion providing ample evidence to the contrary.

In truth, it's become apparent that this whole thing ostensibly about Larry David and Curb and how offensive it is for an unlikable character portrayed as a misanthropic dope to accidentally splash urine on a graven image of Jesus ("You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath," Exodus 20:3) and be ridiculed for it, is really more about your regularly-appearing issues with all things Jewish. So despite the fact that it's pretty easy to show lots of examples of Jews and Muslims being made the subject of fun or having their beliefs handled in an irreverent manner, I now kinda doubt that will get us anywhere.

[Reigh Kaufman]

It is a popular misconception that the Christians were thrown to the lions.

But the ones on JoBlo walk up to them covered in BBQ sauce and stick their heads into their mouths.

Ba-dum-tsh!

Try the veal and tip your waitress.

[Pentangeli]

So in what context would you find a desecration of a picture of Jesus acceptable, other than having an evil villain do it?
"Other than an evil villain [doing] it" :confused:

If someone accidentally did it, and regretted it, then it wouldn't be disrespectful.

If Larry David found what he did regrettable, it wouldn't have featured in his comedy series. He put the "accident" in a context which was disrespectful.

[Pentangeli]

Actually, in my first post I gave three specific episodes as examples and summarized what they're about. Each revolve significantly around making light of customs of Judaism or Islam, in the way that this episode that so offends you makes light of people thinking they're seeing miracles in inanimate objects (NOT desecrating Jesus, since it's accidental).

You said those links to the HBO episode guides weren't working for you. Odd, but those episodes again are The Ski Lift (ep # 48), The Survivor (ep #39), and The Blind Date (ep #33).
You did indeed, and thanks for the help on this. Along with the other suggestions from various posters, I'll see them when I can.

is really more about your regularly-appearing issues with all things Jewish. So despite the fact that it's pretty easy to show lots of examples of Jews and Muslims being made the subject of fun or having their beliefs handled in an irreverent manner, I now kinda doubt that will get us anywhere.
You're making assumptions without substance. And quite frankly its insulting.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm sorry Bubba, but its simply not what this thread is about. If you wish to believe Jewish people are the most self-depreciating people in the World, go with it. That's cool.

You really need to stop telling me what the thread is about, because my point is directly tied in with your assertion of a double standard, and you know this.

Secondly, it's not cool that you are trying straw man tactics by making it sound like my point is that Jewish people are the most self-depreciating in the world, when you know damn well that the statement was included in a point about there being tons of Jewish jokes already in Hollywood, and Jewish people make Jewish jokes and jokes about other religions - something, again, directly tied in with your reasoning for saying there's a double standard.

Your complaint is that there is a double standard in Hollywood.

Several schmoes have said that there is no double standard because there are a lot of jokes about Jews as well as other religions.

You said that doesn't count because MOST of the jokes about Jews are by Jews.

I said, in response to YOUR statement, that I believe it's just a matter of Jewish writers having a sort of monopoly on jokes, leaving little room for other writers to mock them, as they have already done the mocking.

You ask me to prove that MOST of the jokes about Jews are by JEws.

I prove this.

You say it has nothing to do with the topic, which is a way you're trying and avoid the point being made: That there is no double standard because Jews make fun of themselves as much as other religions. A point that has been made by pretty much every single schmoe posting in this thread, but you seem to not want to address because it shows how wrong your double standard theory is.

It's funny that you've been arguing against the point for 3 pages now, but once you are put into a position where it would make sense to accept it, you start acting like the point is something else, despite there being a clear thread as to why the topic was brought up (you asking me to provide statistics) and even weaker, pretending like I'm not addressing an original point that was made.

Thanks for the recommendation, but the thread is relevant here. People have made valuable contributions, as i've already mentioned. BCV mentioned Life of Brian. Smiert mentioned an episode of Family Guy. You mentioned Hollywood Shuffle. Quentin mentioned Curb as an entire series, and i'm hoping he can point me in the direction of a few specific episodes. And I ask for more examples.

Instead of Hollywood Shuffle, I would recommend Fear of a Black Hat, because it's much more cutting that Shuffle - that one was just the first one that came to mind. There's PLENTY more I could think of, but there's no need to ---

And tons more could be listed but those are from Jewish writers so you are going to say Jewish writers making Jewish jokes has nothing to do with a double standard of Jewish writers making fun of religion and that's totally nonsense, because it's EXACTLY what it's about.

The purpose of Borat is to expose and entice the bigotry of those around him. That's the humor of it. Same applies to Ali G and Bruno.

And the purpose of Curb Your Enthusiasm is to make Larry David look like a borderline sociopath who always does things wrong and makes himself out to be an asshole. Why do you think ones motivation is more relevant than the other when neither is intended to be a disrespectful to religion but instead make people look like assholes? I mean, besides your refusal to accept other points being made, and harping on the technicalities of how people make their points instead of the points being made (for example, you asking me to provide statistics that MOST Jewish jokes are from Jewish writers and MOST jokes about other religions are also from Jewish writers, when this is exactly a point you originally made, not me; but I just used this point to state in conclusion that Jews probably make more jokes about Jews than other religions make jokes of themselves, when this is logically inherent and fundamental to YOUR refusal to accept points that were made on PAGE ONE.

Sorry, what you are doing to me with this thread here is no different than what others are doing to you in terms of talking about your Jewish conspiracy nonsense and putting words in your mouth, and at this point I'm a little regretting that I stood up for you when people were doing this.

[QUENTIN]

You're making assumptions without substance. And quite frankly its insulting.

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?", this thread, "Mel Gibson gets unfair treatment because of who runs the entertainment industry," etc) as well as made comments I found bizarrely critical of Jewish people where otherwise the threads weren't about that. If you're a Christian, I'd assume you'd find Hinduism, Taosim, and all other non-Christian (and far more prevalent) religions "asinine drivel," but you seem focused quite specifically on hammering Judaism which strikes me as odd if your feelings are simply that Christianity is right and the rest aren't. What is it specifically about Judaism that bothers you?

These are observations I have never seen made by anyone for any purpose other than to to be critical of Jewish people and not-so-subtly hint at some form of inappropriate Zionist conspiracy (When in reality, the Hollywood studio system like all corporate culture is nepotistic and was founded largely by European Jewish immigrants). Here in your first post you complain that you can't target Judaism for criticism because Jews run the media. If you'd like to take the opportunity to explain what the point was of these comments that has nothing to do with you having issues with Jewish people, feel free, I'm curious to hear it. Genuinely. But it sounds to me a lot like people who make "observations" like "Ever notice there are lots of black people in jail?" or "Why can black people get away with mocking white people but I can't mock black people?" or in its most egregious form "Why can't I say 'nigger' by they can?" I don't believe people make such comments innocently or without cause and the rather obvious subtext of such remarks is that the author has a problem with Jews or in the latter case blacks. In polite society and civil discussion, it's rare for someone to openly make racist remarks and no one's saying you've called for Ze Extermination of Der Juden or anything that awful, but it's even rarer for someone to regularly bring up a specific race in a disparaging way without an ulterior motive or agenda.

Moreover, I think if this thread was started in earnest and you just felt there was a double standard regarding Christianity's presentation in mass media, you'd be much more receptive to information demonstrating that Judaism and Islam have had more than their fair share of being similarly mocked or derided as well as points made about the relative abundance of Christianity compared to other religions in America being a source for any disparity in the amount of irreverent material on the subject. Instead, it seems you're insisting on making some point about minority censorship and Jewish privilege you've yet to really provide evidence for. Again, from my perspective, behaving like someone more interested in their agenda and using this topic as an opportunity to discuss the unfair "Jewish media's" assault on your values than an honest, open, fair discussion about whether Larry David was disrespecting Christians and people wouldn't stand for that if it weren't a Christian figure.

On this specific topic, I still don't understand why you haven't meaningfully addressed the fact that the scene you take umbrage with was an innocuous accident committed by a character who is presented as a wholly unlikable asshole who regularly accidentally offends people as the basis of a majority of the show's plotlines. This is in no way comparable to someone taking a portrait of Jesus out and pissing on it to make some statement about their contempt for Christianity, which is fair to be offended by, but more akin to how Ben Stiller accidentally burns a gazebo in Meet The Parents and everyone gets mad at him for it, which taking offense to seems off-base. How is it so offensive when presented in this context? If you were upset that the show made light of people witnessing miracles in inanimate objects, you'd have fair cause, but this seems like entirely unnecessary reaching to come to a conclusion not supported by the content and especially the context of the episode.

[Smiert Spionam]

Pent just doesn't wanna admit that he was wrong and that this thread is fucking retarded. Plain and simple....

There's nothing wrong with being wrong, Pent, especially about a subject that regards another country that you don't even fuckin' live in. We won't think any less of you if you just concede defeat over this already pointless topic.

[The Heart Collector]

If someone accidentally did it, and regretted it, then it wouldn't be disrespectful.

If Larry David found what he did regrettable, it wouldn't have featured in his comedy series. He put the "accident" in a context which was disrespectful.

He does find it regrettable, which is why he doesn't say anything about it, because he wants to avoid the problem. Afterwards, when he realizes what the other person thinks (that it is a miracle), he stays quiet (as well as Jerry Seinfeld, who guesses what happened) because they both want the person in question to quit her job with them (which she does, since she wants to tour the 'miracle jesus picture').

In other words, Larry is a selfish dude who uses an accident as an opportunity to get something he wants.

This follows a long pattern of events in the show, including using his mother's death as a way to avoid assisting to other people's parties and whatnot, or dating a woman in a wheelchair because everyone treats them better at dates, etc.

[Pentangeli]

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?",

Provide a quote, because i've never said that. Your lying is indicitive of trollish behaviour and shouldn't be acceptable on this site.


this thread, "Mel Gibson gets unfair treatment because of who runs the entertainment industry," etc)
I don't believe the entire entertainment industry is run by Jews.

as well as made comments I found bizarrely critical of Jewish people where otherwise the threads weren't about that. If you're a Christian, I'd assume you'd find Hinduism, Taosim, and all other non-Christian (and far more prevalent) religions "asinine drivel," but you seem focused quite specifically on hammering Judaism which strikes me as odd if your feelings are simply that Christianity is right and the rest aren't. What is it specifically about Judaism that bothers you?
I'm not a Christian. I'm an agnostic-theist. Jesus is like Gandhi to me.

Here in your first post you complain that you can't target Judaism for criticism because Jews run the media.
Once again you've lied. And once again, I feel the need to defend myself against this unfair/unjust treatment, I have not said "Jews run the media".

I was hoping for a civil discussion. Instead I get insulted, I get lies spread about me. Its pathetic and I wont be taken part in this any longer.

Moreover, I think if this thread was started in earnest and you just felt there was a double standard regarding Christianity's presentation in mass media, you'd be much more receptive to information demonstrating that Judaism and Islam have had more than their fair share of being similarly mocked or derided as well as points made about the relative abundance of Christianity compared to other religions in America being a source for any disparity in the amount of irreverent material on the subject.

I have accepted the points made by other posters, if and when appropriate. You've given me good examples. Smiert, Bubba, BCV, have all given me examples. It will take time for me to see all the suggestions. If indeed these examples show that non-Christian religions can be mocked in equal severity, then i'll stand corrected.

[Buck Turgidson]

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?"Q, are we acknowledging, even quasi-officially, that this guy is who many of us think he is? I've been loath to spell it out directly because I thought it might be seen as accusing him of dishonesty, but since he's directly accused you of having lied (using that word) and of lying (using that word as well), I think that wall has been breeched.

If we want to put all the cards on the table and not have someone who calls him on it be punished (someone like me, for example), I'll be happy to provide that quote he's been demanding be provided.

[Natty]

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?"

That was actually someone else who has since been banned. I know you might be suggesting they are the same person but Pentangili seems more intelligent, and hasn't yet spoken out against "double standards" involving black people.

[Smiert Spionam]

Provide a quote, because i've never said that. Your lying is indicitive of trollish behaviour and shouldn't be acceptable on this site.

You do realize you're talking to a fuckin' MOD, right? :rolleyes:

This guy is ridiculous.... I've never known anyone to take such a definitive stance on a subject that they clearly no nothing about and be so stubborn when no one agrees with them and they're made to look like a fool. It's almost awe-inspiring....

[The Postmaster General]

So to summarize, the thread starter thinks there is a double standard in the media because there are so many jokes that ridicule Christianity.

When people provide examples and accounts of Jewish customs being ridiculed, the thread starter says that doesn't count because the writers are Jewish.

When someone says that it might just be a case of Jewish people taking up all the good jokes, the thread starter refuses to address that, and continues to insist there is a imbalanced attack of Christianity. the thread starter even asks to be provided statistics to validate the statement.

Maybe the thread starter is right, and we do need statistical data, because anything else might just be a load of hogwash.

So let's back up to page one so we can get everything straight and make sure the thread hasn't progressed on false statements that cannot be validated through statistics.

From page one...

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely.

"You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data."



I believe it has been successfully demonstrated in this thread that there is not double standard, as evident by the mass amounts of Jewish jokes, which the thread starter acknowledges. Also, there has been a failure to show where other religions mock their own to the extent that Jewish comedians mock there own, so in turn, it reckons that Jewish comedians are responsible for most mocking of all religions.

There is no double standard, I believe the thread starter is exhibiting narrow vision based within their own reality tunnel.

[Smiert Spionam]

Not to metion the fact that the thread isn't only about double standards, but double standards IN AMERICA, a country in which, again, the thread starter doesn't even live in, while the overwhelming majority of his critics actually do.

I think that's important to note as well....

[The Postmaster General]

Smiert - wasn't there a South Park episode depicting Muhammad as a character?

[Smiert Spionam]

Yes, but he was only depicted on a fictional episode of Family Guy that was airing on TV in South Park. It was for half a second and he had no dialogue, but still though....

[The Postmaster General]

Were the fictional writers for that fictional episode of Family Guy Islamic? ;)

[Smiert Spionam]

I dunno, do manatees often have religious beliefs? :D

[Shinigami]

Does anybody find the quirks of censorship interesting? Can anybody point to strange cases of broad favoritism that don't have to do with obvious reasons like audience pandering, advertiser pandering..?

I've been thinking about this on and off for a few days but can't put together a good answer beyond the boring No.

[QUENTIN]

Q, are we acknowledging, even quasi-officially, that this guy is who many of us think he is? I've been loath to spell it out directly because I thought it might be seen as accusing him of dishonesty, but since he's directly accused you of having lied (using that word) and of lying (using that word as well), I think that wall has been breeched.

If we want to put all the cards on the table and not have someone who calls him on it be punished (someone like me, for example), I'll be happy to provide that quote he's been demanding be provided.

That was actually someone else who has since been banned. I know you might be suggesting they are the same person but Pentangili seems more intelligent, and hasn't yet spoken out against "double standards" involving black people.

I'm under the same impression Buck, but wasn't trying to use that against him or make a point of it and it's advised not to. I wasn't even trying to bring it up, I was just mistaken about the timing of different comments. I guess the lines blurred for me, I thought the most bizarre and direct stuff was the other fella's name but the "Ever notice how...?" line was Pentangeli. I was trying to provide quotes and comments Pentangeli made. I just did a search of his post history and see that though there's this thread and Gibson comments and others, that first quote isn't attributed to Pentangeli. I wasn't lying but I was mistaken on that one quote Pentangeli, mea culpa. Some of you understand how I could make that mistake, I'll leave it at that.

What's not lying or trolling or being mistaken is reading into the subtext of a series of comments. I may have never said "I love movies" anywhere on this board, but read enough of my posts and you'll soon figure it out. In my estimation and it appears I'm not alone, there's an odd and negative focus on Jewish people and religion in your posting. You take issue with people paraphrasing or interpreting your statements and consider it some form of attack, I think that's semantics but whatever, I'm done doing it here. Without actually going wildly off-topic, the thread has still ventured into personal territory (partly my fault) and obviously gotten heated and I don't think gotten us anywhere in over a page and as a whole Bubba summarizes well. Like I said, I doubt any good will come of it, minds changed or good points recognized, so I'm just gonna move on.

As a final note, Larry David is for my money probably the single funniest man to work in T.V.

[Buck Turgidson]

I'm under the same impression Buck, but wasn't trying to use that against him or make a point of it and it's advised not to.The only reason I asked is that this incessant repetition of "I never said that" by him is really galling.

Extending him the benefit of the doubt is indicative of Natty's essential good nature, but that's not the way I do things.Like I said, I doubt any good will come of it, minds changed or good points recognized, so I'm just gonna move on.That's probably the best practical decision but the problem is that we'll be back here fighting this same battle, sooner or later.

Most likely the former.

[Katel2]

Modern Judaism often focuses on community and moral values rather than religious beliefs. In modern judaism you can debate religious tenets with your rabi. If you are a secular jew you may not even believe in God. If you are asking if there is a fundamentalist sect of Judaism that would be offended by sacrilege the way that their is a fundamentalist sect of christianity that is offended by sacrilege---yes. I don't think that Larry David is a fundamentalist.
Also, it is just a painting of Jesus. (looking suspiciously white I might add)
Wasn't there death threats over cartoonists drawing images of Allah- Do Christians really want to take that over sensitivity as a model.

[The Postmaster General]

I dunno, do manatees often have religious beliefs? :D

Ah man, I'm not familiar enough with the shows and I haven't seen the Cartoon Wars episodes, so I can't follow.

Does anybody find the quirks of censorship interesting? Can anybody point to strange cases of broad favoritism that don't have to do with obvious reasons like audience pandering, advertiser pandering..?

I've been thinking about this on and off for a few days but can't put together a good answer beyond the boring No.

I can't either. PrisWizard once noted something about where Toyota did a series of ads where Rav4s had gold grills, meant to be like gold teeth, and they pulled the ads after Jesse Jackson complained. That seems like it might be a good example, but I'm not totally sure. Could you define what you're looking for a bit more because I don't know if I'm totally clear.

I'm under the same impression Buck, but wasn't trying to use that against him or make a point of it and it's advised not to. I wasn't even trying to bring it up, I was just mistaken about the timing of different comments. I guess the lines blurred for me, I thought the most bizarre and direct stuff was the other fella's name but the "Ever notice how...?" line was Pentangeli. I was trying to provide quotes and comments Pentangeli made. I just did a search of his post history and see that though there's this thread and Gibson comments and others, that first quote isn't attributed to Pentangeli. I wasn't lying but I was mistaken on that one quote Pentangeli, mea culpa. Some of you understand how I could make that mistake, I'll leave it at that.

What's not lying or trolling or being mistaken is reading into the subtext of a series of comments. I may have never said "I love movies" anywhere on this board, but read enough of my posts and you'll soon figure it out. In my estimation and it appears I'm not alone, there's an odd and negative focus on Jewish people and religion in your posting. You take issue with people paraphrasing or interpreting your statements and consider it some form of attack, I think that's semantics but whatever, I'm done doing it here. Without actually going wildly off-topic, the thread has still ventured into personal territory (partly my fault) and obviously gotten heated and I don't think gotten us anywhere in over a page and as a whole Bubba summarizes well. Like I said, I doubt any good will come of it, minds changed or good points recognized, so I'm just gonna move on.

As a final note, Larry David is for my money probably the single funniest man to work in T.V.

QUENTIN - In all your time here, I've found you to be nothing of a troll. There are other schmoes here who I adore and think are just the cat's meow, but have felt they are trollish from time-to-time - even myself, I sometimes engage in very mild behavior that could be seen as trollish - even though it's never in the strict sense, because mine is usually similar to yours, unintended - in my case, just maybe too out there to be seem earnest, or sometimes just obvious I'm goofing around - I don't think anyone has ever thought I was ill-willed, which, to me, is the root of what real trollish behavior is. The term has been wayyyy broadened since it was first coined to pretty much include anything that's not strict adherence to the most boring style of internet discussion.

If you go by most prevailing definitions, making a joke in a thread, whether it's in context or not, is called trolling, and I think that's bullshit, because IN REAL LIFE, if someone made an off-handed joke during a conversation, or if someone made a mistake, people wouldn't dork out and start accusing them of the same type of role playing mentality nonsense people accuse people of on the Internet. They would just call them on the mistake without making any judgments or playing like they are holier than thou because you're engaging in some sort of arbitrary behavior that's described in contrast to a mythological creature. If that were the case, we'd be a pretty boring race of beings who never introduced new ideas, or attempted to solve problems, rationalize what was in front of us, much less have a sense of humor, and even worse off, we'd always be looking be facing enemies, and never peers, because everyone makes mistakes and everyone has quarks.

By some definitions, this very response is considered trolling - despite, using real world rules, it CLEARLy being in the flow of natural and civil conversation. Thank JoBlo that this site is built and run by people who have real and productive lives, and there's none of that talk back mentality. In my time here, I have only gone to any lengths to insist one schmoe was a troll - many of you remember this and know who I'm talking about. I think it's suiting that this thread is where I have most brought this up since it happened 4 or 5 years ago.

With QUENTIN, I've seen nothing but sincere attempts to have discussions. You always respond to people in the exact context of their posts, and have never stooped to misquoting or intentionally making people look like they are doing things that seem far-fetched from what they actually did. I mean, in the example in this thread, even at your worst you have stated things pretty much the entire thread participants have touched on or hinted at. So you made a mistake. Who's the bigger one looking to bring disharmony: the person who makes a mistake, the person who notices the mistake and points it out, or the person who accuses someone, someone who has a outstanding history on the boards, of engaging in ill-mannered and mean-spirited behavior? My bet is on the latter. The latter is the guy in a bar who starts a fight because someone looked at him wrong, when everyone else is just trying to enjoy himself. It's only doubled if that guy who thinks he was looked at wrong showed up at the bar ready to fight, though only he can ever validate if that was his MO.

The only reason I asked is that this incessant repetition of "I never said that" by him is really galling.

Extending him the benefit of the doubt is indicative of Natty's essential good nature, but that's not the way I do things.That's probably the best practical decision but the problem is that we'll be back here fighting this same battle, sooner or later.

Most likely the former.

I think we all speak to one another in a mature and good-spirited manner. With so many of the schmoes here, I've found nothing but an intent to have discussions. I've disagreed with every single person in this thread about one thing or another, some I have gone throat to throat with in passionate disagreement, but it's only the people who I feel are acting in good-spirits that I will continue to respond and have discussions with. That schmoe from many years back, who I keep referring to has been the only person who's ever gone on my ignore list, but alas it was hard to maintain because so many others continued giving them the benefit of the doubt, and leaving little to do but acknowledge their presence. This was all in the spirit of being a part of a discussion group. When everyone eventually came to the same conclusion as me, that particular schmoe acted as if they were being victimized, offended, and as if they could not see where everyone was coming from, and decided to stop posting under that user name. This was their choice not mine.

People are people, so let people be people and realize the people who are just being people.

Sorry, I'm still recovering from a minor surgery. :)


Also, it is just a painting of Jesus. (looking suspiciously white I might add)
Wasn't there death threats over cartoonists drawing images of Allah- Do Christians really want to take that over sensitivity as a model.

I and Jeo, maybe some others, have already stated that we aren't even sure if the piss part was the offense people are taking, or if it's the fact that Xtian beliefs in God showing signs was made fun of. I'm surprised this hasn't really been addressed since it seems to be at the root of the problem. The thread starter has only said "there's a double standard" and so far, this has been the thread starters only example, aside from statements like "it happens all the time" and so forth. No one really seems to agree this is the case, since we've provided so many examples of equal opportunity offenses in America.

[Digifruitella]

It's people like whoever bitch about this harmless episode that make this country such a terrible place... everything is something to bitch about, you cant let creative people just do their thing, you have to tear them apart because they are more creative than you are (you being the vast majority of religious people in this country, or any one who agrees with anything Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson say)

Yeah, that's real creative.


(and note when i say "You" i am speaking in generalizations, not to any particular person.. although Glenn Beck is a complete idiot, but thats another discussion)!

Then use "one" instead.