View Full Version : Discussion on the "opening" of TTT....
Some of you may have read an article over at TheOneRing.net a few days ago, which included an interview with Phillipa Boyens and Fran Walsh (writers of the films). In it, they rather interestingly stated that the film would literally open with a "big plunge".....She also went on to say that "It's one of the most amazing openings for a film ever". Very exciting.
Well, articles were popping up on TORN's site from fans speculating on what this "big plunge" could actually be. It was described as being "Very Peter Jackson".
I typed one of my theories along to TORN, and it was included in this article: (I use my Joblo.com nickname).
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1035654791
They edited it down a bit, so here's what I said in full:
Tehanu,
After reading through the short list of speculations on the site, I'm going to try and offer my two cents, not that they are particularly important, but, I'll give it a shot:
I believe the film will open with Gandalf's fall into the depths of Moria with the Balrog.
Why? Well, in the short piece of the interview with Phillippa Boyens and Fran Walsh, and their exciting statement "...It's one of the most amazing openings ever", truly signifies to me that it is Gandalf vs. Balrog.
Now, having read through some of the arguments for and against, I will say to those who think that it will spoil Gandalf's entrance later on in the film - No! It won't. It's already been seen in the trailers, plus both scenes embody a different kind of visual power. Gandalf the White is an entirely different character, and his entrance will be unlike any scene that included Gandalf the Grey - I believe that what has come before won't take the sheen off his "entrance".
"...Pure Peter Jackson". In regards to this comment, I recall a review or a statement that I had read a few weeks ago where someone said that the Gandalf vs. Balrog fight is, in some places - strange. Strange is one of the words I would associate with "pure" Jackson. Strange visuals, and this battle certainly has the potential for this kind of content.
Would it be a good opening? It's certainly right into the action, and would certainly grab the audiences attention right away.
It will be a visually stunning sight to behold, so perhaps it is best placed at the very beginning.
FOTR was void of an ending, so to speak, so to open The Two Towers with a bang seems like the good thing to do. In my opinion, flashbacks can sometimes be sloppy, and often are a lazy way of telling an untold story, so having it at the beginning instead of recalling it to Aragorn and co. would be a change in convention. A refreshing change.
It also balances out the action. There really isn't that much action in the first half of Tolkien's Two Towers, and from the clues leaked onto the net of the structure of the film, it looks as though there'll be a mass of action toward the middle and end. Perhaps including Gandalf's flashback to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas would cause an imbalance. (That said, I'm wondering whether Gandalf's meeting would seem a little redundant without a tale of his fall).
Ti's but an argument that could go on, and it is interesting to hear people's opinions. I guess we won't know closer to the date, but as it stands, I think it'll happen at the beginning. Boy, will I be red faced if it isn't ;)
You can call me ak.
It'll be interesting to see a discussion going here.....
Tuukka
10-27-2002, 06:59 PM
I'm willing to agree with you. FOTR started with a bang when it showed the Last Alliance. ROTK might well start with a confrontation against Shelob. I think PJ wants to grab the audience to his side right from the start and the beginning has been described as truly impressive. What impressive could there happen in the beginning of TTT besides the potential duel between Gandalf and Balrog?
I see some have suggested that it could be a Nazgul "plunging" from the sky, but that seems illogical to me. What would it be plunging at? It doesn't make sense to open like this. As you said, what could be more impressive than G vs. B?
This is the biggest and most visually profound plunge that occurs in the trilogy.....It's got to be their epic battle.
Dumb-Fokker-**
10-27-2002, 09:09 PM
...I can't say that I like the idea of the film opening like that. First off, it would work MUCH BETTER as a flash-back, simply because having it at the beggining would screw with the sense of time, just a little bit. Second off, idiot audience members are going to think that they have been falling since the scene where they fought in Fellowship (believe me, I know people who would think that). And finally, I just think it is a less-than-elegant way to open the film. It just doesn't seem like it would be a good idea for an opening. And as for their being no action in the beggining of the film - what about the battle between the Riders of Rohan, and the group of Uruk-Hai carrying Merry & Pippin? That would certainly constitue as an action scene, correct? Well, yes; I don't much like the idea of this film opening with Gandalf fighting the Balrog, and to be honest, doubt it will open like that. I think they meant something a little less,....obvious, when they made those statements. But, we'll see. Yes, my precious, we will see.
dh1989
10-27-2002, 10:38 PM
I do not like the idea of opening TTT with Gandalf falling with the balrog. Sure it might be exciting, but it just would not feel right. Like DF said it would screw with a feeling of time and people would think he was still falling from his first "FLY YOU FOOLS" fall. I just do not fancy the idea. I believe the film should open with Frodo and Sam going through the rocks. Maybe the plunge could be the plunge where Frodo jumps off the edge of the cliff and that would be "PJ"-ish enough, I s'pose. That is my idea. It would be big story-wise because it would kick off Frodo's struggle with the one ring. I fancy that idea.
James Logan
10-28-2002, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by dh1989
I do not like the idea of opening TTT with Gandalf falling with the balrog. Sure it might be exciting, but it just would not feel right.
Exactly. Second that.
Dumb-Fokker-**
10-28-2002, 02:34 PM
Well, personally, I see no better opening than Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas running across the plains, looking for Merry, and Pippin. Starting with Frodo and Sam, although it wouldn't be a huge problem, would still feel a little,...well, wrong. I dont know. Maybe because we see Aragorn, and Co. first in the book, is what makes it seem like the perfect beggining. Ok, that sentence made no sense. Oh well, you get the point. If he wants to start off with a "bang", than I say that he should start with a quick scene of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas; a quick scene with Frodo, and Sam; and than a quick "bang" scene - maybe between Frodo and Sam. But NOT with Gandalf and the Balrog. ;)
Tuukka
10-28-2002, 05:26 PM
I think it's an appropriate way to start the film. I think that nobody is going to think that Gandalf is still falling when it has been at least several days since his "death". Most likely people who have not read the book assume that the fall in Moria is only a couple of miles deep at maximum, so they should be able to put the event to it's right place at the timeline.
In my opinion it would be *less* appropriate to include the fight as a flashback, simply because it would diminish the power of it and narratively it would make less sense to show it (it would seem extraneous, like a forced attempt to provide an action scene in middle of more drama driven scenes).
dh1989
10-28-2002, 07:21 PM
I think having the battle on Zirakzigil and the fall as flashback would add to the respect of Gandalf. To show him walking, talking, and breath after such a great battle would make most people say: Wow! He really is powerful!" I still fancy the idea of opening with Frodo and Samwise.
I'm with Tuukka all the way.
Perhaps it may not be the opening, but I think it really would be the most appropriate.
Honestly, think about it - We all trust Peter Jackson, and if this was the opening to the film, and if it was "very Peter Jackson", it would be undeniably amazing....Like I said before......It would defy a certain degree of convention.
I don't know - there's something about the use of the word "amazing" when they refer to the opening....G vs B instantly springs to mind.
And someone mentioned above that it may be too obvious to have this as the opening.......Well, perhaps, but I don't think the content of this battle will be obvious.....Very Peter Jackson, is, often, very unique.
Dumb Fokker - In reply to your statement on the action quotent - Well, yes, there is the battle between Riders of Rohan and Uruk Hai, but it is not on any kind of huge scale.....that's what I was referring to......G vs B is massive scale, then there's nothing much inbetween that and Storming/Helm's Deep. In between these there's a great scope for more concentration on characters etc, which makes it well balanced.
I for one would really love to see this as the opening.
Dumb-Fokker-**
10-28-2002, 08:35 PM
I still think that the film can, and should open more eloquently. I mean, think about it - the titles of the film, fade into a battle with Gandalf and the Balrog? Just doesnt seem like it would fit. But, I have complete faith that PJ knows what is best for the film, and as such, am not really worried about it.
As for the action quotient - if the movie is anything like the game, than there will be additional scenes of the Uruk-Hai killing the people of Rohan, and burning their villages - in otherwords, action.
xirtam
10-28-2002, 09:16 PM
Maybe the "plunge" is not actually talking about characters, but really a camera movement?
Tuukka
10-28-2002, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by xirtam
Maybe the "plunge" is not actually talking about characters, but really a camera movement?
Now that you mention it, didn't someone (McKellen?) say that the scenery in TTT is awesome and especially the FIRST shot is amazing?
It could be just a one single shot showing scenery. For example a shot combining CGI and real scenery, starting up from the skíes and then gliding down to ground level (maybe turning into a helicopter shot flying between mountains and then finding the three hunters and ending with a close-up of them). Who knows, maybe the film will start with a map of Middle-Earth and when the camera moves closer the map changes into "real" earth surface.
Now THAT I like the sound of!
That really sounds like a great idea, but, yet again, I can't quite imagine the camera making a "plunge". Plunge suggests a fast, steep descent, where as I would expect an opening like your suggestion, to be more of a, well, steady descent.
I can't really make head nor tail of this. It's all pretty confusing...Knowing Jackson's style, he could make a really good job of anything he does for the opening.
I guess we'll all find out when the early reviews start floating in......When are they due, by the way? I can't really remember the dates of early reviews last year.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: Having just read Ian McKellen's updated question/answers at his site, there's something that caught my interest:
Q: I saw in the new TTT trailer that when you are falling with the Balrog, you are holding your sword. How can that be if you lost her (the sword had fall first) before you completely fall in the bridge? Many thanks and keep the great work. :)
A: You will be answered early in The Two Towers when Gandalf and his sword are reunited.
Early in TTT? Well, he didn't say the beginning, but there we are again.........confusion sets in.
James Logan
10-30-2002, 07:21 AM
Let's wait and see, it's all we can do...lol
dh1989 wrote this in a previous topic. I'm discussing it here, as it has more relevance in this discussion:
Tolkien's World From A To Z - The Complete Guide To Middle Earth by Robert Foster has nothing about The Foundations of Stone and they usually have every tiny bit of knowledge from The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, and more. I mean they say every king of Numenor and their friggin birthdays, so I suppose they should have something about that, but nothing. Maybe TORn is wrong. Yes it is there, but I would it is not the official name of where Gandalf battles the Balrog. That'd be Zirakzigil. It, in my opinion, could mean Emyn Muil. Heck TTT could open with a sweeping plunge shot of The Misty Mountains. It is up in the air, until we get rock solid proof of an opening.
Foundations Of Stone is in there. No, it is not the official name of the battle, but then again, there is no official name to the battle, and it is quite cleverly, purposfully, not giving a direct indication of the content of that scene.
It is important to say that none of us know, and that at the moment is it educated guesses, but surely these clues tell us that it is the battle of the wizard versus the demon:
Ian McKellen says we'll see their battle "early in the film"....He didn't say at the beginning......Maybe he isn't allowed to? (Further proof is given in the soundtrack listings - The White Rider theme isn't until around half way through the soundtrack, so that's not early in the film, and the events do run chronologically. This means that he probably doesn't recount it to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas here.
It's a "big plunge"....Come on! This is the biggest plunge in the trilogy.....and it leads to an "amazing" action sequence.
Foundations Of Stone - Common sense should tell you that, as Tuukka pointed out, foundations are well under ground, and well, the foundations of Moria are thounsands of feet down, where their battle takes place. This is also used in the book in a part of the description. It doesn't make sense as the Emin Muil.
We won't have to wait for the film to know what exactly is the opening scene - The opening track will tell us - It'll probably be quite epic if it is the G vs B battle. It'll probably have elements of A Journey In The Dark and The Bridge Of Kazad Dum.
dh1989
11-02-2002, 08:12 PM
I s'pose the evidence is there. I am just shocked PJ would make such a strange and inappropriate opening choice.
dh1989
11-02-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by ak
Foundations Of Stone is there[/i]
I never denied it wasn't!
dh1989
11-02-2002, 08:19 PM
To stop any argument, I will just say I hope TTT is good and I do not really care how it opens as long as Pauly Shore does not narrate it.
One of the things I'm having a problem with is why people think it is inappropriate?.
Let's list the reasons why it is a good opening:
First and foremost, this is a Peter Jackson film - Can you honestly tell me that he would have done it if it was inappropriate. You've not seen the film, so how would you know if it's inappropriate. Sure, how would I know it is not? I trust Jackson enough though to know that it isn't. He's done everything well so far.
It's a "grab you by the balls" opening, and it doesn't let go for quite a few minutes. A strong opening is JUST what The Two Towers needs after the anti-climactic ending of FOTR.
This opening will break convention by having an untold story at the beginning. It's not something you'd expect from a film of this magnitude, but something you'd expect from Jackson.
Gandalf's entrance later in the film. This is the most important factor, to me, to why it is a great opening.
It confronts the audience with what it is Gandalf has gone through to become this almost godly figure.
Imagine it......There's no opening of G vs B, and Gandalf The White comes on screen infront of the three travellers.....The audience will be "Riiiight...Isn't that the grey bloke?" And they won't have a connection to his present state of immense power.......By way of showing his fight and his death, when he does come on screen, the audience reaction will be in stunned silence, and a certain respect - "Wow, the guy really looks like one mean ass mother-fucker now".
He's come through the torture and his power means more because we've seen his fight, his battle.
And yes, I believe Pauly Shore should narrate the opening....Jackson!
ANTBond007
11-04-2002, 09:33 PM
Maybe Aragorn will even say, "Wow, Gandalf, you look like one mean-ass motherfucker." :D
From TORN:
-------------------
Opening Scenes of TTT.
Tehanu @ 11:23 pm EST
Here's a theory from Lexequine which is very persuasive to me. She writes:
I bought the book "The Making of the Movie Trilogy" on Wednesday and have been madly reading it ever since. It is a wonderful book. But I am not writing this to tell you how wonderful the book is. I know that there has been a lot of speculation about the opening scenes for TTT. I think we get the definitive answer from Alan Lee himself. Found this on page 51:
Alan also produced many concepts for a possible sequence depiciting the struggle between Gandalf and the Balrog: their fall deep into the abyss beneath Khazad-dum and, deeper still, through fire and water, to the uttermost foundations of stone; then their long wearisome climb, by secret ways and the many thousand steps of the Endless Stair, to the highest peak of the Misty Mountains and a final, catalysmic confrontation. He sifts through his sketches of the Endless Stair, which twists and turns in a mase of Esher-like illusions: "I wanted to convey a feeling that they are struggling in an unreal space -- somewhere between life and death -- Gandalf pursuing the Balrog up, down and around; now coming toward you, now rushing away, a roller-coaster of a tracking shot, during which the whole axis might turn, creating the vertiginous feeling of not knowing which way up you are!"
Now doesn't that sound like a Jackson-like opener? And I love the mention of the "Foundations of Stone" which is the first track on the soundtrack.
-----------------------
This opening is gonna rock! I cant wait to see it! :)
dh1989
11-10-2002, 09:49 PM
SPOILERS LIE AHEAD!
The new photo guide to TTT reveals that the film begins with Frodo having nightmares about the events in FOTR. I am starting to think the plunge is a camera movement. A map of Middle Earth and it zooms down until it hits Mordor and becomes real, all the way down to a sleeping Frodo.
Originally posted by dh1989
SPOILERS LIE AHEAD!
The new photo guide to TTT reveals that the film begins with Frodo having nightmares about the events in FOTR. I am starting to think the plunge is a camera movement. A map of Middle Earth and it zooms down until it hits Mordor and becomes real, all the way down to a sleeping Frodo.
Nope, Sorry. I was just checking out TORN, and Sir Ian McKellen himself has confirmed that the film will open with the Gandalf vs. Balrog scene.
Then I hear it. "Now I will tell you the opening scene of the next Lord of the RIngs movie" I strruggle to hold back my excitement. "You will see the camera going over some rocks, and then sudenly the camera will go right through the rocks, and you will se Gandalf, and the Balrog, falling. Except this time, the camera will actually follw his down in to the abyss and we will see the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog. And what happens after that I can't tell you, because I haven't seen it yet!" WOW! I know the opening scene of The Two Towers!
and
Hi, I just came back from Sir Ian McKellen's "A Knight Out" at the Vancouver Playhouse. Sir Ian announced that the opening sequence for TTT will in fact be the "plunge" of gandalf down the chasm with the balrog! I'll try to recall his description, as best as I can: The scene starts off just like the TTT theatrical trailer with a sweeping bird's eye view of the Misty Mountains. After a while the camera will stop and move directly towards a mountain, and right through the rock (into the mountain) to the scene of the bridge of Khazad-dum. The camera will be somewhere above the bridge, looking down on gandalf, and when he falls, the camera will follow him down...
to read the whole story, go here (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1037005397)
More details about the opening:
A sweeping pan over the mountain that is Carhadras. You hear far off from inside the mountain, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" Camera breaks THROUGH the mountainside, to show Gandalf hanging on the bridge and saying "Fly, you fools!" He falls down ... and the camera follows him down after the Balrog then they show the BIG BATTLE!
so, that means that we wont have any confused audiences that think that they've been falling ever since the battle in FOTR like Dumb fokker and others thought.
This just gets better and better :) This will be one of the most spetacular film openings EVER!
Dumb-Fokker-**
11-11-2002, 03:06 PM
Does anyone care to guess what that first shot of the final TTT trailer, is from? Yep, i'll bet my left nut that it is from the pan over Caradhras. Wow. That opening really does sound quite amazing. And yes, I am glad they will show the bridge sequence with it - that should help things immensly. Sweetness.
xirtam
11-24-2002, 08:09 PM
The first track on the Soundtrack is called Foundations of Stone, and in a quote from the book, The Two Towers, Book 3, Chapter V--the White Rider (sounds almost like I'm quoting from the Bible!) Gandalf is explaing what happened to him after he fell:
"Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart."
"Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it," said Gimli.
"Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge," said Gandalf. "Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone."
I think that pretty much explains it, and it also features the word "plunge", which might be a factor.
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