Sex and cursing in films--a rant

[movielover-9]

I want to say something that I've been wanting to say for a while. Whyyyy must films constantly have sex and cursing in films for no real reason at all? Don't think I'm up for violence, but if a film is violent it is most of the time justified. But when we have a couple having sex or people constantly droppinf f-bombs it's just to do it! The cursing shows how much people are following Tarantino. The guy has over 200 f-words in Pulp Fiction and now Hollywood suddenly thinks its okay to try to do the same. I think bad language in films is only neccessary to show a certain kind of emotion like anger or rage or helplessness. I understand that people talk like that but how many people do you know that do it CONSTANTLY? It really aggrivates me and to a certain point it makes you uncomfortable. Same thing with sex. I also think Hollywood does this in films because they think it's "hip". A sex scene shouldn't be in a film unless its a significant part of the movie's plot[like "Fatal Attraction" or "Boogie Nights"]or a character aspect[if the character was, say, a hooker]. Was the steamy Halle Berry-Billy Bob Thornton love scene in "Monster's Ball" placed into the film because the screenwriter[s] thought that it would be important and stand for something, or just to get the audience all sweaty and horny? This is an everlasting annoyance to me and I just want to say to all the Hollywood screenwriters[even though you're not listening] "Sex, language, and even at times violence should NOT be included in a film unless it is neccesary!"

[free]

***MINOR SPOILER***


The sex scene in Monster's Ball was there because the only way that Berry and Thorton's characters could forget about their own problems WAS to have sex. This is also accented earlier in the film when Thorton buys the hooker that his son also bought. Not out of love, or even actraction, just necessity.

I still think it was a terrible movie, but not for that reason

[Annie Hall]

In regards to the cursing aspect of movies, sometimes it is needed to convey a certain background or relationship between people. For instance, in Good Will Hunting, would you really have believed that Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were extremely-poor, and mistreated kids if they spoke without the profanity?

Profanity is often used as a way of conveying a lack of education. Now, this is not always true. But, I do not disagree with abundant use of profanity, because many, many people speak this way within their daily lives.

[Buck Turgidson]

"Necessity" is hardly an objective, easily demonstrated quality. I think I'll leave it up to the filmmakers.

[Moviefan1234]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
"Necessity" is hardly an objective, easily demonstrated quality. I think I'll leave it up to the filmmakers.


That's exactly what I feel. Leave it up to the makers of the film to decide what is too much or too little. It's their film.

[SAI]

For the writers among us. I think we have all fallen into the trap of writing a script with too much swearing. I know I have, when I first wrote I had just strted watching 18 certificate films (i was about 14) and my frst script was stuffed with profanity, then I read it back and realised that normal people don't use "fuck" in every sentence. I went back and eiether deleted or varied most of the swearing, and I came out with a better script.

Does this mean I dislike swearing in films, or that I think it's bad, or not a valid way of writing a character? FUCK NO:D Certain films use it well, South Park; Bigger Longer and Uncut used swearing to make a point about censorship (smething that those who seek to censor conveniently miss) and you only have to look at tv versions of films to know that sometimes people need to swear. "Yippe Ki Yay Kemosabe" does not have the same ring to it as Yippe Ki Yay Motherfucker". In Midnight Run the TV Edited version "I've got two words for you, shut up" may be mathematically accurate, but it's decidedly less funny than "I've got two words for you, shut the fuck up"

You see the point.

And so from saying fuck to showing one. Sex in movies is a difficult issue, european cinema has pushed the bounds of censorship recently with Baise Moi and Irreversible. I think context is everything. Boogie Nights HAD to have sex in it, its about the porn industry but its harder to say that the sex in Basic Instinct is motivated by the plot, rather than the desire for good box office.

In the end I think it has to be up to the director what he shows and up to you what you watch.

[Tuukka]

I find it interesting that people find sex and cussing problematic in films, while violence in general is considered as accetable. Sex and cussing are natural parts of everyday life, while violence is not.

Of course you can overdo sex and cussing so much that they became distracting, but I think this happens very rarely. Your social background affects this a lot, but I think that moderate cussing is very normal. Generally movies have much less cussing than real life.

[Grebdron]

Fuck all this stupid shit. Show me some fucking titties.

[syxxpac]

Originally posted by Grebdron
Fuck all this stupid shit. Show me some fucking titties.

Amen!

[Nate6]

In order to make a film realistic, a film must sometimes have sex and profanity, while violence is completely unnecessary unless needed. What is the big friggin' deal about sex? Sex is a natural human thing, we've been doing it since we first got here. If it weren't for sex, none of us would be here today! Get over it! And profanity, those are just words, some people find them offensive, some don't. But violence is death, violence is blood, violence is evil, unless it's justified. It's a little bit hypocritical to say that you hate sex and language but are OK with violence. Now, obviously sex and profanity can be overdone and distracting, like Tuukka said, but it doesn't happen often.

As for the sex scenes in Monster's Ball, they were necessary to the film and were very painful. I don't know about you but having watched the first hour of the movie I certainly didn't get horny.

[bob]

Well, I'll agree that there's a lot of gratuitous sex in films, but cursing is a major part of life. I mean, I'm a high school student, I'm well educated, and I curse a lot. it's just part of everyday life, and I don't find it off-putting in movies.

[notchreturns]

I love to fucking curse and love to fucking fuck, anything wrong with that? I think not. Can't say I've killed anybody, though....

[El Bracamonti]

Originally posted by notchreturns
I love to fucking curse and love to fucking fuck, anything wrong with that? I think not. Can't say I've killed anybody, though....

very well put.

[happy OUT here]

The thing is - it can be offensive or it can be accurate or it can be funny.

I hated the movie "Me, Myself & Irene", but the kids constantly saying motherfucker in every line was FUNNY.

It has to do with quality writing, directing and acting. If 1 of these areas falls short, you have a mess.

[Razorblade Smile]

For me its all about context. Swearing has its place, and when used well can help to make a film more rich.

I remember seeing a film from the 60s where the evil villain killed some guy's girlfriend right in front of him. The offended party referred to the guy as a "Dirty creep". In lieu of ridiculous moments like that, I DO believe that swearing has a definitive and useful place in cinema.

As for sex...well, that one's iffy. Sex is rarely shown in any real contextual element in films, and its ususually just there to stimulate some jarring visceral response. I'm not offended by it, but I do find it disjointing at times. I rarely find it necessary. A steamy sex scene is not required to show that two people are in love with one another. It's kind of like going to the bathroom. If Julia Roberts is in a movie where her character says that she has to take a shit, I don't expect to see her with her drawers around his ankles sitting on the thunder mug. It goes without saying, and the audience can easily fill in the mental blanks.

[CrowTRobot]

Retracted: orginal post suffered from blindness due to straying too far to the left. All apologies.

[CrowTRobot]

You may think it's unfortunate or just wrong, but sex and violence— eros and thanatos— sell tickets. This is not news; it's been the modus operandi of Hollywood executives since film became a mass medium of entertainment. That's really the driving reason behind the skin and fighting in any major motion picture (not that it doesn't help with plot).

Don't blame Tarrantino. He's certainly not the first to use excessive profanity and violence, and at least that script is artistic and innovative, even while being part of the established pulp genre (which has always pushed the envelope on "necessary" violence and sex).

Humans are a violent species. We are also all, to a degree determined by age and chemical levels, driven to reproduce by means of intercourse (even if actual reproduction is rarely our goal). If you have strong views regarding sex as strictly for procreation, than it should be American society, before her film industry, that worries you foremost. Otherwise, I think the amount of skin we see in movies reflects the amount of skin the average non-ascetic (heck, even ascetic) person WANTs to see in their fantasy life. I don't have a problem with violence and sex in any film, although I will agree that when they seem to serve no real end other than demographic appeal, then yes I feel cheap and used and will take away points, etc.

If you are intellectually curious about this dubious tradition in Hollywood, go rent David Lynch's [B]Mulholland Drive[B/]. Warning: it does contain some violence, and some steamy sexual content, but it serves a higher purpose in this film by, if not raising, than at least pointing out the same issue you are ponting out: particularly that women in Hollywood are chosen for their image, and the rest of their talents, personality, ie. their depth as humans is disregarded. There is no band, only the illusion.

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by CrowTRobot
Are you a classicist. or just naive?!

So middle and upper class citizens don't use words like "fuck?"

Isn't there a glaring discrepancy between your point that "poor, uneducated people" will swear more often and your choice of example: WILL HUNTING IS A FUCKING GENIUS! AND he's poor. So if anything, the movie dispells your crude stereotype of the lower class.

Swear words are the property and folly of us all.

I was in no way stereotyping the lower class. I was simply saying that it would be unbelieveable if Ben Affleck's character in Good Will Hunting said "Well...Will, my belief is that you truly have a fascinating future ahead of you. You really are a genius, old sport, and I think that it would be quite industrious of you to work at it." I mean, come on. Are you trying to tell me that language does not become a part of someones culture?

I wasn't saying that bad language is restricted to any particular financial class, I was saying that it is often used for a reason. Not just for the sake of saying "fuck" and making money. I doubt Matt Damon was huddled around his typewriter, impishly giggling saying "OH, let's say 'I fucking hate him' so that I can say fuck again, wow this writing shit sure is fun". I am not a classicist or naive, I was pointing out that language is OFTEN USED to show people whose education would not provide a more expansive vocabulary. I never said this is always the case, and I never said that people with a lack of education are necessarily idiots or not well read.

I'm not even sure how you got this so called "crude stereotype of the lower class" from my post. If you will re-read it I actually said "I do not disagree with abundant use of profanity, because many, many people speak this way within their daily lives." This includes myself.

I'm sorry if you somehow got the wrong impression of my beliefs and were offended, but I do not think that you truly paid attention to the gist of my post.

Cheers.

[CrowTRobot]

Originally posted by Annie Hall
I was in no way stereotyping the lower class. I was simply saying that it would be unbelieveable if Ben Affleck's character in Good Will Hunting said "Well...Will, my belief is that you truly have a fascinating future ahead of you. You really are a genius, old sport, and I think that it would be quite industrious of you to work at it." I mean, come on. Are you trying to tell me that language does not become a part of someones culture?

I wasn't saying that bad language is restricted to any particular financial class, I was saying that it is often used for a reason. Not just for the sake of saying "fuck" and making money. I doubt Matt Damon was huddled around his typewriter, impishly giggling saying "OH, let's say 'I fucking hate him' so that I can say fuck again, wow this writing shit sure is fun". I am not a classicist or naive, I was pointing out that language is OFTEN USED to show people whose education would not provide a more expansive vocabulary. I never said this is always the case, and I never said that people with a lack of education are necessarily idiots or not well read.

I'm not even sure how you got this so called "crude stereotype of the lower class" from my post. If you will re-read it I actually said "I do not disagree with abundant use of profanity, because many, many people speak this way within their daily lives." This includes myself.

I'm sorry if you somehow got the wrong impression of my beliefs and were offended, but I do not think that you truly paid attention to the gist of my post.

Cheers.

I was out of line, and I apologize. I guess I was trying on a more leftist mindset, and A) I'm not fluent enough in that mindset to properly comment, and B) the farther left you go, the tougher it is to make genuine, logical deconstructions that make sense.

In other words, I went off when I had no grounds to. I suppose since so many of posters use such binary logic sometimes that I forget to read every as close as they deserve to be read.

I retain some level of concern about how filmmakers go about using certain signifiers as means of characterization. The audience has to be fed information, but at what cost? I always find that characters, like people, are best discovered (and created) case by case, starting with originalities, rather than narrowing down from the largest subheading.

As for F-Bombs, yes they are used too much in the sense of "cool," but few things in life are as simple a path to small satisfaction than an aptly uttered "fuck!"

[SIREN30]

I've made no secret of the fact that i HATE cussing in movies or anywhere else and refuse to spend time w/ people who have nothing better to do than talk that way,excesssively. Therefore I just don't identify w/ characters in film that do it and I usually avoid movies that have tons of cussing. I never think it's necessary to the story or necessary to show what kind of person someone is. That's just a cop out. It's 'trendy' to use as much profanity as possible so that's why its done. Sex scenes that are purposely violent or over-the-top are also pointless and I always appreciate subltety in that area over outright 'nekkid-love'. It always annoys the hell out of me when two characters in a film meet, have sex, and then fall in love . It makes it seem that sex is necessary to know whether you love someone and I hate that thats the idea alot of young people have, due to film.

I miss classic film when directors couldnt/wouldnt show that type of thing. Is there any wonder why most of my favorite films are before 1970? And would you BELIEVE I'm under 30?:D

[lockedoutfilm]

Seems like you're pro-censorship, huh?

I'm all for "anything goes" in film. As long as it serves a purpose, its all good. Even in my high school writer's craft class, we were told that a well placed swear word will work wonders.

Sex is another issue. When I lived in South America, I came to realize that sex and sexuality is treated much different down there than it is up here. Up here sex is still very taboo and still has a shock factor to it. Down there, different story.

[free]

Well, some sex scenes and/or language is neccecary. And to say that using sex or language is a "cop out" is a very weak statement. I go tocollege, work at a pizza place (as the NEW assistant Manager!!!!) and go out to the movies/mall/ect. I hear far much cursing in real life than i would ever hear at the movies.

Another point is, would the Rhett Butler line "Frankly my dear, i don't give a damn," be as moving and remembered as " Frankly my dear i dont give a (poop)(crap)(dang)(shoot)(care),"? In the movie Memento, (highlight to read)


*****************Spoiler********************



Would you hate Carrie Ann Moss's character as much if instead of saying, "If your wife didnt suck all those diseased cocks...." so on so forth, than if she wouldve said, "Your wife is a stupid face and i dont like her."


*****************end*************


I guess my point is, that it happens in real life, unless you live in a ferry world where all you do is sit in church (even then there's damn and ass in the bible, and a whole hell lot of killing and violence), you would see/experience it in real life.


And, SIREN30 if you have this mentality...

and refuse to spend time w/ people who have nothing better to do than talk that way,excesssively.

and not judging them on the inside, then you are missing out on a whole lot. (sorry if i offended)

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by SIREN30
I've made no secret of the fact that i HATE cussing in movies or anywhere else and refuse to spend time w/ people who have nothing better to do than talk that way,excesssively.

Not to be rude at all, Siren, as I respect your opinion greatly...but...do you really think it is fair to judge someone upon how they speak? Some of the nicest, kindest, most fufilling relationships I have ever had, have been with people who are rather uncouth at times. But, if it offends you so greatly, I suppose it's best that you spend time with people who don't offend you...after all, what's the point of talking to people if they offend you? :)

[MickeyKnox]

Sex and Language in movies does not bug me one bit all i do is sit back and enjoy the movie and that's it but on occassion yeah i do like to see some skin here and there, but only if it is an attractive grl. THATS IT!!!!!

[the movie guy]

I think Boondock Saints took swearing too far with Rocko's character. That got tiresome. (I like the movie mainly for Willem Dafoe. He brings the movie from a "pretty good" to a "great".)

And in the sex department, I felt the graphic and abundant amounts of sex in American Psycho weren't needed. (Though the movie's still great.)

So I definately agree that when it's in extreme abundance, or just unnecessary, it doesn't work - most of the time.

[The Postmaster General]

Eminem cussed in 8 Mile because he was hard, and didn't care, yo.




PS - Where the fuck did movielover-9 go? What happened to starting a topic, then being involved in it?

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by SAI and my frst script was stuffed with profanity, then I read it back and realised that normal people don't use "fuck" in every sentence.

My Dad does...and he's a top bloke, EXTREMELY intelligent to boot.

He's constantly effing and jeffing...and most people take it with a pinch of salt. He's a violent Glaswegian, it's his character...;)

As Oirish funster Ronan once crooned, "It's only WORDS"...I think the Bee Gee's sang the original, but thats an entirely different kettle of fish.

[electriclite]

You know what trend I usually hate in film that I find a more blatant cop out than anything else: Having a character become drunk in order to

A.) begin a romantic storyline or

B.) to have the truth come out about whatever secret is being hidden.


However with sex and cursing, if its done well the results can be remarkable. However if its not done right, it blows chunks (Striptease, Showgirls).

I love certain curse words. Just watch the Actor's Studio and watch how some of the actor's show why a certain expletive is their favorite word. Will Smith's example on the usage of "motherfucker" is priceless and RIGHT ON.

In one of my favorite books "fuck" takes on so many colorful meanings I've branded the author a genius in the usage of the word. That's not easy to do. It takes talent to use a curse word effectively without coming off as immaturish. Hard as it is to believe, delivering curse words is an art. Same goes for portraying sex on the screen.

[NotKeyserSoze]

It's true that swearing is really "in" with movies now - but it always has been. I watched Back To The Future, of course made way back in '85, and even as a PG that got away with "bastards", "shit" and "son of a bitch." sometimes swearing suits the culture the film is about. With tarantino, maybe the people he's making movies about DO talk this way. Okay, us viewers probably don't... but he doesn't make movies about us. We're watching other people, how THEY act, and how they speak. If it's profane, then you don't have to watch it. Hey, what do you think 18 means anyway - not like you haven't been warned.

As far as sex is concerned, I guess I would agree it's generally there just to get us off - Halle Berry's "unveiling" in Swordfish was rather damply pointless, after she claimed she'd only get 'em out if it was artistic - but hey, moviemakers figure that's what people want. As much as you and I just want a "good" movie, what the general public wants has to figure into it or it won't sell. And culture swears a helluva lot anyway - film just reflects that. If people swear more because of a film, blame the culture it's based on - and if you don't like the sex scene, then hey, look away or stop watching R Rated movies in the first place.

[Obrotherrules]

For all of the discussion about excessive language/sex/violence, I wonder if the issue isn't really one of creativity. Older films are great because of the lack of offensive material. Why? Because, when not given that option, directors are forced to find better, more subtle ways of hinting at that stuff. Sure, language-wise, older films seem kind of silly ("you no-good creep" doesn't sound right, given today's options of "you *********"), but they were the better for it. Nowadays, we have any number of lazy screenwriters (including, frankly, some people on this board) who are more willing to include the F-word in half of their script, rather than find an interesting way to write better dialogue. Only occasionally, as was the case with MEMENTO, is an R-rated script so good - and that one relied on concept and character development, full of complex dialogue, and not excessively using objectionable content. And last year's two Oscar-winning scripts, GOSFORD PARK and A BEAUTIFUL MIND, while of fairly middling quality, had very few expletives. Believe me, I am not trying to rip on today's filmmakers, or my fellow board-members. I am merely challenging you all to write more creatively. After all, who really wants to read a script where every other word is the same?

[Jayen]

I'd have to somewhat agree with Obrotherrules. I think it was George Roy Hill that said at one time, all the great Hollywood films were almost expletive & sex free. Think Butch Cassidy & Sundace Kid, The Sting, Citizen Kane, Godfather 1 & 2 (very little compared to current), Raiders of Lost Ark, Jaws...yup. I can go on & on.

What happened? It may have actually picked up whole lotta steam after Basic Instinct...but I am beginning to see that whole lot of actresses who dropped their kit, presumably for fame & $$, ain't that much around any more. Sharon Stone, Sean Young, Kelly LeBrock, well it goes on & on. Some exceptions are Nicole Kidman (but I still think this had more to do with her once being married to Tom C than her 'acting' talent').

[free]

Godfather 1 & 2 (very little compared to current),
True, but if we used the language/sex scale of inflation, Godfather would equal something around a Memento in todays terms. We must look at the content in movies not by our standards, but by the standards of the time. Gone with the Wind showed a big no-no in its time with cursing, people actually being friendly with african americans, women wearing :eek: pants, women speaking of :eek: lovers and, a woman not :eek:
***********Little Spoiler***********



mourning her husbands death (not Rhett)



***********end****************




In looking at all the GREAT movies, they all pushed the so-called limits in their own Culture.

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by Jayashanker Rajagopal
I'd have to somewhat agree with Obrotherrules. I think it was George Roy Hill that said at one time, all the great Hollywood films were almost expletive & sex free. Think Butch Cassidy & Sundace Kid, The Sting, Citizen Kane, Godfather 1 & 2 (very little compared to current), Raiders of Lost Ark, Jaws...yup. I can go on & on.


Godfather, Raiders, Jaws, were all very "shocking" for their time, though, were they not? I still firmly believe that Raiders is not a 'PG' movie, and the Godfather pictures certainly did not lack violence. Is violence more acceptable? Is the average person more likely to be strangled then hear someone cuss? For their own days standards, in their own ways, these "great" movies pushed the limits. Sure, there were not wild sex scenes...but...I remember a few images from the listed movies that stayed with me for quite awhile after seeing them (especially in Godfather Part II).

Audiences would have been shocked by American Beauty in the 50s, and it would have been called "pornography", and all sorts of terrible names. But what we can withstand and tolerate has grown, and in my opinion, has just allowed great films such as AB to be made, and appreciated. Life isn't squeaky clean, why should movies be?

[the p&j experiance]

I don't like pointless sex in movies, but I think it's okay for profanity, but that's because I have the foulest mouth you'll ever hear. I swear when I just talk in a normal conversation I'll use the word "fuck" countless times. In the matter of a day (a regular day) I can use the word "fuck" over 400 times, I can use the insult "cocksucker" about 60-some times, I use milder curse words (bitch, shit, damn, hell) less then I use the word fuck, if I'm really pissed off I'll use the word "cunt" (usually when miss Susie Highschool changes her attitude when the teacher turns his/her back), if any different races fuck with me I'll use racial insults (not to their face), and then I make up my own combinations like
"shit miller"
"cock butter"
"cock snuffer"
"you piece of hell"
"shit ass"
-and-
"cock toe"

But that's also because I'm a pothead, I'm shameless, and I'm not easily scared. I know, I give 15 year olds a bad name. It's odd that a person like me is so fucking nice. I have to add the fact that I'm a pretty nice guy so not everyone is anti-p&j, I give money to people I hardly know, I only get pissed when someone fucks with me, I don't talk shit behind people's backs, I'm honest, I don't hate anyone unless they hate me or give me every reason to hate them, I'm very nice to girls unless they are bitches to me, I am not anti-parent, I love my mom very much and I make it a point to talk to her (in depth conversation that goes on for 3 hours) at least twice a week, and I've been voted as the funniest person in the freshmen class. So don't hate the p-man.

[movielover-9]

Wow I had no idea my topic would generate so much discussion. I feel so loved. *tear, tear*.