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View Full Version : William Goldman disses Marty/Gangs in Variety!


The Other
02-04-2003, 02:06 AM
This was an interesting article I read written by William Goldman, who is an Oscar voter and also an Oscar-winning writer for ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN and BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID. I saw that he wrote this article for Variety and I have to agree.

"Crashing the party for poor Marty

By WILLIAM GOLDMAN

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am sick unto death of feeling guilty about Martin Scorsese.

Here are the names of five great directors: Charlie Chaplin, Howard Hawks, Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick and Orson Welles. What do they have in common? For all their fame and brilliance, none has won the Oscar for best direction.

Neither has Scorsese.

Should the five have won? Absolutely. But it's not a mortal sin they didn't. Should Scorsese? You bet. A couple of times. ("Taxi Driver," obviously, "Raging Bull," obviously. But I fell in love with his talent earlier on, with "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore.")

This year, more than ever, it's like there's a Byzantine plot to get Scorsese the honor. As if the phonier critics all dropped to their knees and looked up at the Hollywood Gods, going in unison, "Oh pwease, we twied so hard wif 'Kundun,' we even twied wif 'Bwing Out the Dead,' so pwease pwease wet Marty win this year, he wants it sooooo bad."

That he does. The Hollywood parties he is attending must make him want to barf, but there is, glad-handing anyone in the vicinity who is an Academy member who might throw him a vote.

Miramax, the greatest movie company of the era (and the most brutal -- and maybe they have to go together) is so all-out for Scorsese it's heart-stopping. They do a brilliant job and I honor that -- but I will never forgive them for hyping the Oscar to Roberto Benigni, the scummiest award in the Academy's history. And I suspect Scorsese will win, too.

But he sure doesn't deserve it, not this year -- "Gangs of New York" is a mess.

Please do not sputter on about some of the visuals -- my God, bring Ed Wood back from the dead, give him a hundred mil-plus to play with, he'd give you some visuals, too.

No, the problem with "Gangs of New York" is nothing new in Scorsese's work -- he has never been secure with a story. No one's much better with actors or look or camera placement. It's that most crucial director's tool that haunts him. The reason his movies do not make much, if any, money is not because he is dealing with esoteric subjects that are above the average moviegoer's head. It's the clumsy storytelling that frustrates us, sending us out of the theater dissatisfied.

"Gangs" is in trouble from the outset. In the opening scene Leo, at about age 10, is watching his daddy shave. There is a cut. The razor is given to the kid and then the father intones the following: "The blood stays on the blade."

I have a friend who is so giddy with the sheer pretentiousness of that line that he says it to everyone. You say "Good morning." He answers, "Yes, and the blood stays on the blade."

And please do not blame the screenwriter for that. Because when you are dealing with a giant ape director, they get what they want. And Scorsese chose to open the story that way.

What story though? The lack of an answer is what demolishes the movie. Is it about gang warfare? Family revenge? Irish immigration? The Civil War? The draft? Political corruption? Prejudice? These subjects and more, all of them valid enough alone, flicker in and out, never accumulating or connecting one to the other.

One example to indicate the problem: Two hours and seven minutes into the film, folks, there is a scene between Leo and the political boss of New York -- and they are discussing a subject never mentioned before in the movie and which you could not guess if I gave you the rest of my lifetime: who is going to run for Sheriff.

For 10 minutes, an amazing wasted length of movie time, and especially damaging this late into a pic, we deal with the election of the sheriff and his subsequent murder and Leo eventually challenging Daniel Day-Lewis to combat.

But we knew from the first sequence that this would happen because Day-Lewis killed Leo's pop.

So now the fight, yes? Nope. Not in this baby. Ten additional minutes drudge on before they get to it.

OK, a word about fights in the 2002 films: It's the worst year ever. I thought nothing would ever beat "Insomnia" with Pacino in climactic combat vs. that tower of power, Robin Williams,. Eleven feet tall, the two of them together, tops.

But this fight was worse -- because you couldn't see it. Scorsese has hidden it behind the smoke of cannon fire. Nothing to make John Wayne worry.

But the battle is still better than the way the movie ends, with a disgraceful shot of the World Trade Center.

I guess if you can't move people legitimately, you do what you have to do…"

I agree, because while Scorsese may have deserved it in the past (I would've given it to him for ONLY Goodfellas), he doesn't deserve it this year. And GONY is a mess, I agree whole-heartedly with what he says about the story, when it tries to be too many things at once and like he says about all the things the movie tries to show and all. Even JoBlo mentioned it in his review.

I also like how he mentions it's not the subjects that Scorsese deals with that makes people not want to see his movies, but clumsy storytelling. Besides GONY, I've only seen his three "masterpieces" (Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, Goodfellas). I only liked Goodfellas.

Also I agree with what Entertainment Weekly said as well in their Oscar preview issue. They say the only thing that keeps this film in consideration is Day-Lewis' performance and even its admirer's point to its flaws. And that respect for Scorsese and it's production is what secures the film a nomination (we'll have to see next Tuesday).

BakeTheMooCow
02-04-2003, 03:50 AM
I agree with William Goldman, and I also agree with you that Scorsese should have only won for Goodfellas. While I liked Taxi Driver and Raging Bull, the only reason for that was Robert DeNiro's performances. Goodfellas was more complete and a stunning directing job.

I haven't seen GONY so I can't say whether he should win, but if he does win a sympathy award, it would suck.

Rob Gordon
02-04-2003, 08:06 AM
Agreed. On everything. The Other is right, Bake is right, Goldman is right. (Goldman is always right; there's no arguing with that guy.) Scorsese should win, but not for this. Not like this. Not that this would be the first time the Academy handed out a statue for a different film than is etched on the plaque at the bottom.
But don't do that to Marty. He's worked too hard for his first Oscar to be a dummy! He deserves to win for a great movie, and I hope he keeps working because I know he's got another one in him.
He's not done yet. That's why he can't get a sympathy award, because he's not ready to throw in the towel. If he keeps stepping up to the camera, I know he can hit another one out of the park. And this time the Academy will be watching. Maybe that Howard Hughes film he's working on could be it. (The Academy does like their non-fiction works, especially bios.) But not for Gangs.

Dude
02-04-2003, 10:56 AM
OUCH!..... SCATHING!!!!

I love it when Hollywood EATS THEIR OWN... :D

Nate6
02-04-2003, 01:56 PM
Wha? What is this? Is William Goldman trying to prove to us that he's a big, immature asshole? Harumph. I have some thoughts.

First of all, William Goldman is a jealous, washed-up hasbeen. A great writer in his day, for sure, but what good movies has he written lately? The General's Daughter and The Ghost and the Darkness? I don't think so. Who is he to criticize Scorsese, especially by taking out a useless, pointless Variety article?

Secondly, it is my personal opinion that Scorsese is the best director in the history of film. I think he deserves to have at least three Best Director Oscars already on his mantle (Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, and Goodfellas), and Gangs of New York should finally win him one. Why? Because the film, and he, deserves it. Despite what senile Mr. Goldman thinks, I believe that the stories in Gangs of New York all do flow together. They come together to make a rich tapestry, to give us a good grasp and understanding of the situation in New York at the time. Secondly, the dialogue, I believe, is original and fresh. I liked it. And the visuals are amazing, epic, and required a lot of work. I see no Ed Wood quality in them at all. Someone explain that one to me.

Thirdly, and most disgustingly, to call Scorsese an "ape" who cannot handle stories is absolutely atrocious, not to mention potentially libelous. Who the fuck does William Goldman think he is? I can't stand these stupid, blasphemous comments. How can someone who he considers one of the best directors of all time not be able to handle stories? Did Marty turn down one of his scripts or something? Is that why he's so hemherroidal? Give me a break.

Dude
02-04-2003, 05:39 PM
Nate6,

I agree with what you say. (I still find it funny when they eat their own though)

I just didnt have the energy to get into it...

The "ape" comment was uncalled for.... it seems as if this guy spotted Scorcese at a "power party" licking some hollywood nutsacs, and it pissed him off.. BUT.... taking out a TRADE AD is a Puss-ass way to tell someone how ya feel... he should have called Scorcese if he felt that strongly about it... unless.... this guy hates GONY SO MUCH, that his goal is to attempt to SHAME the potential voters, by having them read the ad and doing a "backpeddle" on the film. All in all, it still was in poor form.

Scarface98.9
02-04-2003, 06:12 PM
I don't see what the point is in slamming Scorsese in a 3 page Variety article. I"m not the biggest fan of Taxi Driver, but to say Scorsese could never tell a story is ludicris (sp?). Unlike what Goldman believes, I don't think Scorsese cares about the Oscars. He always seems nonchalant about it, like it'd be a good prize, but not a goal.

bowieee
02-04-2003, 06:28 PM
The guy who wrote that article is a weenie. All of it was pretty much one giant whine. Did he just wake up in the morning and just felt like throwing mud in Martys eye. I firmly believe Gangs of New York was the best movie from all of last year. The storyline made perfect sense and the opening scene was perfect. Goldman can eat my poop.

Annie Hall
02-04-2003, 06:53 PM
A bit jealous, are we? It breaks my heart to see Goldman, Maverick, Misery, Butch Cassidy and overall Princess Bride author, spewing such a worthless, pretentious, schlock of an article. I mean, Gangs of New York in comparison with The General's Daughter? Heart's in Atlantis? Goodluck if Dreamcatcher could even shine Gangs of New York's shoes.

Goldman is a talented writer, Scorsese is essentially a guru. That he hasn't gotten an Oscar yet is scandalous. That he gets it for Gangs of New York? Completely fine with me. Although flawed, it was an excellent movie that kept me thoroughly, deeply and fully engrossed and even wanting more.

And, insulting Scorsese like that is absolutely blasphemous. He should know better.

BadCoverVersion
02-04-2003, 07:31 PM
I haven't the foggiest idea about this Goldman geezer but this all sounds a wee bit juvenile!!!

Gangs of New York is a brilliant EPIC work, flawed though it may be...I firmly believe that Scorsese deserves the Oscar just as much as any of the other contenders...Perhaps even MORESO after being over-looked on countless previous occasions (argue till you're blue in the face, but this does matter).

It's just a bloody shame that people will cry "sympathy vote" if Marty DOES happen to bag that statue!!!

Sweet JC, I'm bloody PRAYING that the musical wank-fest that is Chicago doesn't take the award. It simply doesn't deserve it, particularly after the Luhrmann snub (Oscar politics perhaps). It's bloody marvellous how Chicago has suddenly "reinvented" the Musical...

Yeah, okay...MY ARSE!!!

The Other
02-04-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Scarface98.9
I don't see what the point is in slamming Scorsese in a 3 page Variety article. I"m not the biggest fan of Taxi Driver, but to say Scorsese could never tell a story is ludicris (sp?). Unlike what Goldman believes, I don't think Scorsese cares about the Oscars. He always seems nonchalant about it, like it'd be a good prize, but not a goal.
Oh no, he does care about getting the Oscar. He's been all over the place (i.e. Larry King Live). He wants that Oscar badly!

The Other
02-04-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
Sweet JC, I'm bloody PRAYING that the musical wank-fest that is Chicago doesn't take the award. It simply doesn't deserve it, particularly after the Luhrmann snub (Oscar politics perhaps). It's bloody marvellous how Chicago has suddenly "reinvented" the Musical...
Oh, I completely agree. I didn't like GANGS OF NEW YORK, but if it were between GONY and CHICAGO, I'd want GONY to win. CHICAGO was awful, heartless, and by-the-numbers!

Me, personally, I want THE HOURS to sweep!

Buck Turgidson
02-04-2003, 08:53 PM
All things considered, that's more of a swipe at Gangs, rather than Marty himself. I've never found Marty exactly lacking in storytelling ability, but that's not something I put a premium on. I go for dialogue and character, something he usually excells at.

It's a well-written and well-argued article, by a guy who has some real stripes in the business, rather than some asshole who works at Entertainment Weekly and couldn't direct a wedding video.

Nate6
02-04-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
All things considered, that's more of a swipe at Gangs, rather than Marty himself

A quote from Goldman's article: [Scorsese] has never been secure with a story.

Another: [Scorsese is] a giant ape director.

Not a swipe at Marty, eh?

Anyway, what I don't understand is why this piece of PMS tripe was even written. Does he have so much time on his hands that he has decided to write in to a major paper to lambast one movie? Something smells rotten here. I still think jealousy is his modus operandi.

KcMsterpce
02-04-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Nate6
Does he have so much time on his hands that he has decided to write in to a major paper to lambast one movie?

Actually, Goldman has written The Princess Bride as well as a pseudo auto-biography/Hollywood Insider novel...
He has made a lot of opinions about many movies, and a lot of the time he whines about things that he hates.

It's his choice, and he's done some masterful work in his past, but he's not so perfect that he has the right to lambaste so connivingly about other writers/directors for imperfect films. He has done some crap as well.

I agree with his points on GoNY lacking the complete cohesion of many loose-ended elements of the storyline [What story though? The lack of an answer is what demolishes the movie. Is it about gang warfare? Family revenge? Irish immigration? The Civil War? The draft? Political corruption? Prejudice? These subjects and more, all of them valid enough alone, flicker in and out, never accumulating or connecting one to the other.], but he should also lay back on the cheap-shot comments as well.

But don't get too upset about Goldman's statements. I have disagreed about MANY things he had to say about many other movies, and think he's flat-out wrong most of the time. He hated LOTR, and that's just the start of my list of disagreements...

Obrotherrules
02-05-2003, 01:11 AM
Obviously, King Goldman, the genius master of classics like Chevy Chase's "Memoirs of an Invisible Man", felt the need to restore some order in his kingdom of Hollywood. Clearly, the man is being treated appallingly, and can spot talent (or the lack thereof) easily. It goes without saying that Martin Scorsese is the hack and "ape" Mr. Goldman says he is; how could it have possibly taken this long for someone to point it out? Mr. Scorsese has directed only three films on the AFI's 100 Greatest list; heaven knows you are required to make at least four masterpieces to escape the great Mr. Goldman's wrath. And of course, Mr. Goldman is a wonderfully credible judge of storytelling talent, having written some of the best film stories of the last twenty years (his work in the 1990s is especially noteworthy). Now that "Goldy" has so eloquently made his point, let's hope he crawls back into his castle and shuts up for the next fifty years.

Buck Turgidson
02-05-2003, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by Nate6
A quote from Goldman's article: [Scorsese] has never been secure with a story.

Another: [Scorsese is] a giant ape director.

Not a swipe at Marty, eh?



He also retroactively awards him 2 Best Director Oscars and says he "fell in love with" his talent earlier than that. Simply saying a Director you admire doesn't do something well isn't what I'd call a swipe, as such. It's pointing out a flaw.

I can say that Spielberg had a tendency toward triteness and treacliness (which he does) and still be an admirer of his myriad other talents.

Now, if I say (as I do, here and now), that George Lucas is a control freak who's forgotten what little he once knew about Directing...that is a swipe.

The Ape line is a restatement of the 800 lb gorilla theme: no one dares say "no" to that person. It's not the same as calling someone a jug eared chimp. (Which is what I often call Ben Stiller.) That's designed to be an insult.

Anybody who dislikes the points he's raised, please take them on as they come and don't disparage the man's work. I seriously doubt that cinematic excrement that Chase's film showed up as was what the man envisioned as he wrote in his study. It's a long, perilous journey from word processor to screen.

Dude
02-05-2003, 09:49 AM
"Its a long journey from script to screen"

TRUE.. BUT.. please point me in the direction of the diatribes Goldman has made over the years stating his vision was corrupted from book to screen (in order to protect his writing credibility). (I dont think ANY exist) ... unlike Elmore Leonard, (who has BRASS BALLS) in being VERY vocal when Hollywood fucks up his books.


The more movies you guys mention that this Goldman fellow was involved with, compared to the ones the Great Scorcese directed, the more I am convinced this guy has ZERO credibility in my eyes. He also seems to equate $$BOX OFFICE$$ success as being the "proof in the pudding" if a movie is good or not..... yeeaahhh... Ooookaaaayy...fucking SHOWGIRLS was the HIGHEST PAID for (SCRIPT) in Hollywood.... does THAT mean anything???? This goof obviously hasnt heard the phrase, "people who live in GLASS HOUSES'''''''''' "

(love Showgirls by the way.. :D )

Grebdron
02-05-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
The Ape line is a restatement of the 800 lb gorilla theme: no one dares say "no" to that person. It's not the same as calling someone a jug eared chimp.

Believe it or not, I don't have much of an opinion on Scorsese or Goldman (I know, shocking), but I came in here to say exactly what Buck said here. He didn't call Scorsese an ape. He was likening him to the gorrilla that can do whatever it wants.

PS-Loved both Goodfellas and The Princess Bride.:D

Nate6
02-05-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Grebdron
He didn't call Scorsese an ape.

Actually, yes he did, but I know what you're trying to say.


He was likening him to the gorrilla that can do whatever it wants.

So? Is that not also a small swipe at Scorsese? Saying that he won't listen to screenwriters and he does what he wants? I mean, I know most, if not all, directors are like that, but still...

Grebdron
02-05-2003, 02:56 PM
I'm not saying he didn't take a swipe at Scorsese. I was just trying to clear up that small misunderstanding.

I actually happen to agree with most of Goldman's essay, but don't care enough to argue it.

dr.gorman
02-05-2003, 04:23 PM
I do think what Goldman said about Scorsese being an "ape" was really unneccary. He could've expressed his dislike for Scorsese in a less harsher way.

Buck Turgidson
02-05-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Nate6


So? Is that not also a small swipe at Scorsese? Saying that he won't listen to screenwriters and he does what he wants? I mean, I know most, if not all, directors are like that, but still...

It's a small swipe, akin to calling him "King Martin I" or something like that. Definitely below calling someone a gorilla, as such.

(Now this is a completely pointless tangient...)

Nate6
02-05-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
(Now this is a completely pointless tangient...)

I agree. We've succeeded in taking this post to a new level of oddness, my friend, debating the roles of an ape in relation to a director. I think we should give ourselves a pat on the back. :)

Scarface98.9
02-05-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
I haven't the foggiest idea about this Goldman geezer but this all sounds a wee bit juvenile!!!

Gangs of New York is a brilliant EPIC work, flawed though it may be...I firmly believe that Scorsese deserves the Oscar just as much as any of the other contenders...Perhaps even MORESO after being over-looked on countless previous occasions (argue till you're blue in the face, but this does matter).

Sweet JC, I'm bloody PRAYING that the musical wank-fest that is Chicago doesn't take the award. It simply doesn't deserve it, particularly after the Luhrmann snub (Oscar politics perhaps). It's bloody marvellous how Chicago has suddenly "reinvented" the Musical...


Dear god, mark this in the history books ladies and gents; this is the first time I've ever fully agreed with BadCoverVersion. I"m getting a big scared here