Why some Schmoes can't finish an argument in a civilized way? [Archive]

Grebdron

05-19-2003, 02:40 PM

I was going to start a rant of my own on this.

WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE CARE WHAT "I" THINK OF YOUR RELIGION? Or some stupid ring in some stupid movie?

Guess what, people...Muslims, Christians, Catholics, Jews...all of them have killed/murdered in the name of religion. And will continue ad-infintum. It's the nature of organized religion. Which is why all of them are equally detestable to me.

If you're going to discuss religion with anybody that disagrees with you, be prepared to be offended. If you're a Muslim and are going to try to convince a Catholic that your religion is better/more peaceful than theirs...good luck. And vice versa. And in today's climate, if you are going to try to argue that Muslims, as a whole, aren't violent, it's probably going to fall on deaf ears. I know they are not worse, on the whole. But lots of people don't. And it can't be argued that radical Muslims were not at the heart of 9/11's atrocities. They were.

There seems to be a tremendous anti-American sentiment running around. Not just here on the board. And it seems to be backed by a lot of American schmoes. So be it. But religious arguments will not end well. Ever. Nobody is willing to admit that their religion is bad. Ever.

quoth_the_raven

05-19-2003, 02:48 PM

actually, i wanna add the point that a large majority of the worlds major conflicts have had religious conatations to them. organised religion has lead to more conflicts than any other factor.

hell, just look at the Crusades...

so many people have died in the name of religion its scary. and all because someone believes in something else.

crazy...

Jedi

05-19-2003, 02:54 PM

Yeah! That's my point, too! I know there are lots of Anti-Americans and Anti-Islam and shit like that, but the thread, for example, was about a movie! Not about a religion or some like that!

See this topic?? I opened it up to talk about getting off-topics and here you go: we're back!

Just one note guys:
I'm NOT an anti-American. I'm not an Anti-Shit either. I'm Arabic and proud of it and these forums are, as I am fully aware of, about movies. I know I'm kinda "minority" here but almost everything around me tells me that I'm "kinda" welcome despite the craziness in the world! I'm talking in these subjects because I believe all movie fans should be open-minded and not fall into "you're bad", "no! YOU are bad" sort of argument

Jedi

05-19-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
like i say, debates can go anywhere and everywhere. its one of those things, but something i seem to find strangely enthralling....

Same here! But sometimes I panic of being misunderstood especially when you're talking about something that could be easily offensive.

Personally I don't want to make people believe in my believes or anything like this. It's enough for me to respect the other and be respected.

and watch movies! :D

The Postmaster General

05-19-2003, 03:57 PM

First off, Jedi. I agree with what you are saying. However, I encourage you to not sell the schmoes short. For every thread that I've seen go to shit, there are many other "controversial" ones that are held in a mature fashion.

QUOTE]Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
actually, i wanna add the point that a large majority of the worlds major conflicts have had religious conatations to them. organised religion has lead to more conflicts than any other factor.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, but let's not blame religion. I often here people blaming religion over wars, and conflicts.

People aren't doing it for religion. They are doing it for POWER, and using religion as their front.

That's the truth.

Jedi

05-19-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
First off, Jedi. I agree with what you are saying. However, I encourage you to not sell the schmoes short. For every thread that I've seen go to shit, there are many other "controversial" ones that are held in a mature fashion.

I know that and it's the major reason why I love this site. I started posting in the boards a few months ago though I first knew about JoBlo's website in Summer 2000 in Total Film magazine. And aftern reading tons of posts by the schmoes I felt it is the right place for me as a movie fan and it will be way beyond religious and nationality limits. And I still believe in that and sticking to it.

I have great respect to all schmoes, and disagreement in any field won't change that.

quoth_the_raven

05-19-2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Yes, but let's not blame religion. I often here people blaming religion over wars, and conflicts.

People aren't doing it for religion. They are doing it for POWER, and using religion as their front.

That's the truth. [/B][/QUOTE]

ok, you took my post and perfected it.

i love you bubba,

marry me

:D:D

Grebdron

05-19-2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Yes, but let's not blame religion. I often here people blaming religion over wars, and conflicts.

People aren't doing it for religion. They are doing it for POWER, and using religion as their front.

That's the truth.

But that's exactly what religion is. A man made tenet system using fear to keep lesser people in check. So that those with the power remain in power.

I worship love. And quoth_the_raven.

quoth_the_raven

05-19-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron

I worship love. And quoth_the_raven.

ahhh, now thats my kind of religion.

to quote the bloodhound gang...

"would i be a good messiah with my low self-esteem. if i dont believe in myself, would that be blasphemy???"

:D:D

The Postmaster General

05-19-2003, 06:33 PM

Well again, let's not blame religeon. Let's blame man. Why not blame movies? Because we are talking about people who are doing the messed up stuff. We can't blame the system just because someone uses it with ill-intent. We're stronger than that. In a big way, it is like you burn your hand on the stove, so in the future you are careful. There is no reason to slight the stove.

Grebdron

05-19-2003, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Well again, let's not blame religeon. Let's blame man. Why not blame movies? Because we are talking about people who are doing the messed up stuff. We can't blame the system just because someone uses it with ill-intent. We're stronger than that. In a big way, it is like you burn your hand on the stove, so in the future you are careful. There is no reason to slight the stove.

We're sort of agreed here, Bubba. Religion is not the cause. The belief in religion is. But religion is only around because men created it to hold other men down.

I'm not 100% against religion. (Only 99%) If it works to keep some people good, and enhances their lives in some way, cheers to it. But it more often is used negatively.

I absolutely love going to church with my parents and hearing the brotherly love sermons. All the parishoners nodding their heads and saying "Amen!" Then go out to the parking lot and hearing those same hypocrites talking shit about their brethren. Nothing warms my heart more than seeing them remark about who didn't tithe, who isn't giving enough effort to the upkeep of the church, etc.

Renews my faith in maknkind, I'll tell you.

The Postmaster General

05-19-2003, 06:45 PM

Yeah. If we use religion, at least keep its front with children around.

SIREN30

05-19-2003, 09:30 PM

So the only acceptable 'religion' would be one that lived by bible standards, didnt fight wars, exhibited love worldwide w/ no different sects or differing beliefs, showed no hypocrisy, and refused to bow or give in to any ruler but God, right?

At least that is kind of the message I'm getting from the general view of organized religion here posted....:confused:

jackson13

05-19-2003, 10:00 PM

People often wonder why im not religious, why I dont believe in God, stuff like that, and my answer is simple: In my eyes, religion is the root of all evil. Religion can be blamed for so many deaths in the world that it is sickening. And the sad thing is, its not really blame, its the cold hard truth. My parents go to church every sunday, say prayers before meals, all the shit that goes along with the whole bruhaha. I, on the other hand, havent been to church in well over a year, and whenever they pray, I just sit there and stare off into space. As for getting into long-winded talks about religion, im not for that. If someone on these boards starts a relgious debate, I shy away, because I do not care one iota about who believes in what. And really, what the hell does religion have to to with talking about movies in the first place? Who gives a fuck if your muslim, christian, catholic, islamic, whatever the fuck you wanna call yourself, TALK MOVIES AND LEAVE RELIGION OUT OF IT!

Tom Samborski

05-19-2003, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Jedi
Oh my God! There was this thread in the Current Movie Talk forum about Muslims protesting about a ring in a bad villian's finger in X2 which holds the name of God written in Arabic. The thread was SO COOL and it started as a discussion about the misuse of religious and national symbols in movies.

Thanks Jedi! BTW, I agree with you 100% about your rant.

Jedi

05-20-2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by jackson13
And really, what the hell does religion have to to with talking about movies in the first place? Who gives a fuck if your muslim, christian, catholic, islamic, whatever the fuck you wanna call yourself, TALK MOVIES AND LEAVE RELIGION OUT OF IT!

Here's someone who needed to rant so much :D I agree with most of what you said. But when nationality and religion are used in ireesponsible ways in movies we are still talking about movies here. Same like you I don't go to Mosques and I don't pray and don't give a damn about people's religion though, again, I'm proud of myself being Muslim and all for I know it quite good and read it well to appreciate its ESSENCE before it got deformed and all. My friends are Christians and Jews and Buddhists and that's not the problem. The brpblem here is when MOVIES are being used as a way of insulting others and creating, through the smallest of details, a very wrong image about some people-nationality-country-religion.

The Postmaster General

05-20-2003, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by SIREN30
So the only acceptable 'religion' would be one that lived by bible standards, didnt fight wars, exhibited love worldwide w/ no different sects or differing beliefs, showed no hypocrisy, and refused to bow or give in to any ruler but God, right?

At least that is kind of the message I'm getting from the general view of organized religion here posted....:confused:

I'm on the same page as you.

It's not religion that's the problem.

Used to be "The love of money is the root of all evil.:

Then it was "Money is the root of all evil."

Soon man will become so spineless and quick to point the finger that the saying will just become: "MONEY!!"

Jedi

05-20-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I'm on the same page as you.
It's not religion that's the problem.
Used to be "The love of money is the root of all evil.:
Then it was "Money is the root of all evil."
Soon man will become so spineless and quick to point the finger that the saying will just become: "MONEY!!"

Cheers for that :) Bubba, your posts are GREAT!

Jedi

05-20-2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by SIREN30
At least that is kind of the message I'm getting from the general view of organized religion here posted....:confused:

organaized religion here posted???? I don't see "organized religious" posts here! Or maybe I've got it wrong!

Paterfamilias

05-20-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Grebdron
We're sort of agreed here, Bubba. Religion is not the cause. The belief in religion is. But religion is only around because men created it to hold other men down....

I don't think men created religon to hold other men down. I think, unfortunately, it has been distorted by many to do such things.

For instance, Christianity was started by Jesus and His followers, not to keep people down, but to liberate and set free. Jesus's message is one of love and grace and mercy and hope.

Terrible things have been done in the name of religion. Wars, oppression, bombing abortion clinics, etc. Also, as you point out, there are hypocrites in the church. But these things are not in keeping with what Jesus taught.

One note, I mention Christianity, not to exclude other religions, but I use it as an example because it is what I am most familiar with.

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
I don't think men created religon to hold other men down. I think, unfortunately, it has been distorted by many to do such things.

For instance, Christianity was started by Jesus and His followers, not to keep people down, but to liberate and set free. Jesus's message is one of love and grace and mercy and hope.

Terrible things have been done in the name of religion. Wars, oppression, bombing abortion clinics, etc. Also, as you point out, there are hypocrites in the church. But these things are not in keeping with what Jesus taught.

One note, I mention Christianity, not to exclude other religions, but I use it as an example because it is what I am most familiar with.

This is where the gray area comes in, Pater. IF you believe that Jesus lived, then you're right. But I believe that man created religion. And I believe man created it for the reasons I stated above.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
I don't think men created religon to hold other men down. I think, unfortunately, it has been distorted by many to do such things.

For instance, Christianity was started by Jesus and His followers, not to keep people down, but to liberate and set free. Jesus's message is one of love and grace and mercy and hope.

Terrible things have been done in the name of religion. Wars, oppression, bombing abortion clinics, etc. Also, as you point out, there are hypocrites in the church. But these things are not in keeping with what Jesus taught.

One note, I mention Christianity, not to exclude other religions, but I use it as an example because it is what I am most familiar with.

Beautiful Pater..... I really do love the fact that it is possible to keep Religion and Jesus seperate. Most religions have been party to bloodshed at one time or another and from ANY of those, I turn away. The organization I choose to associate myself with believes in harmony among races and cultures, will not participate in war, and believes love should be the identifying factor among those who worship God.

'Love Your Neighbor as Yourself' can NOT EVER be wrong. No matter whether you believe Jesus walked the earth or not. :D

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by SIREN30
'Love Your Neighbor as Yourself' can NOT EVER be wrong. No matter whether you believe Jesus walked the earth or not. :D

And if people just did that, the world would be a better place. I do it, and don't belong to any religion. You don't have to have faith in a God to be a good person.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Grebdron
And if people just did that, the world would be a better place. I do it, and don't belong to any religion. You don't have to have faith in a God to be a good person.

Absolutely not. But it does help to have faith in SOMETHING, don't you think?:confused: My faith in God is what keeps me happy. It explains everything. Things that can NEVER be explained otherwise.

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Absolutely not. But it does help to have faith in SOMETHING, don't you think?:confused: My faith in God is what keeps me happy. It explains everything. Things that can NEVER be explained otherwise.

It's just a different mindset, Siren. I can't be content with attributing everything to "God's will." If you can, more power to you. I don't try to talk anybody out of their faith.

Paterfamilias

05-20-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
This is where the gray area comes in, Pater. IF you believe that Jesus lived, then you're right. But I believe that man created religion. And I believe man created it for the reasons I stated above.

Greb, you are right. I am coming from the point of view that Jesus actually lived. I was under the impression that this was supported by more sources than the Bible. I could be wrong, but I thought it was generally accepted that Jesus did in fact live. I think this is one of those areas where there is a fact and not an opinion. Not saying mine is right at this point, just that whether someone lived or not is either true or false, not opinion.

For instance, I could say that I don't believe that Socrates ever really lived. But it isn't a matter of belief. Either I am right or wrong.

Rated R

05-20-2003, 12:52 PM

My entire family is heavily religious, and I respect that, but when they attempt to force it on me is when I have a problem with it. When I started to question religion, they did not give me any answers aside from "God is Good and all you need is to have faith". I just couldn't buy it, thus I am unafiliated. I am not necessarily atheist, I just don't know what comes after death, and personally I don't really care. All that is important now is keeping myself happy and busy. Movies make me happy, and so do my friends. I don't need religion for it, but I don't blame religion for anything, I blame the people who get carried away and strike anyone down because they believe in a different god.

Anyway, I like to think I am a good person, and hopefully if there is a God, it'll realise that...

Oh and PS. If God is all powerful, could he microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it? Food for thought...literally

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
Greb, you are right. I am coming from the point of view that Jesus actually lived. I was under the impression that this was supported by more sources than the Bible. I could be wrong, but I thought it was generally accepted that Jesus did in fact live. I think this is one of those areas where there is a fact and not an opinion. Not saying mine is right at this point, just that whether someone lived or not is either true or false, not opinion.

For instance, I could say that I don't believe that Socrates ever really lived. But it isn't a matter of belief. Either I am right or wrong.

Okay, I guess there is evidence that a man named Jesus did live. But I don't believe there's proof that he was the son of God, and that he was immaculately conceived and all that. He was a person, as far as I'm concerned. A Jewish Carpenter.;)

Jedi

05-20-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
And if people just did that, the world would be a better place. I do it, and don't belong to any religion. You don't have to have faith in a God to be a good person.

That's perfectly right. No-one is good because he is a believer in God. It's not relative. I'm not a good believer myself :D but I consider myself to be a good person. And if I start praying 24/7 and do religious stuff all night and day it won't make me any beter.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Okay, I guess there is evidence that a man named Jesus did live. But I don't believe there's proof that he was the son of God, and that he was immaculately conceived and all that. He was a person, as far as I'm concerned. A Jewish Carpenter.;)

I think most historians believe that Jesus was probably not just a normal man. It's not likely that a normal man would have had the impact on human society, even today, that Jesus has had on the whole world. Whether you choose to believe that he was the Son of God or whether he was just an astounding person w/ a gift for speaking is up to you.:cool: I feel that scientific evidence supports the bible and I feel that the bible is none other than the word of God. Nothing tells me different so I believe...

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30

'Love Your Neighbor as Yourself' can NOT EVER be wrong.

what about when you hate yourself?

;)

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
I think most historians believe that Jesus was probably not just a normal man. It's not likely that a normal man would have had the impact on human society, even today, that Jesus has had on the whole world. Whether you choose to believe that he was the Son of God or whether he was just an astounding person w/ a gift for speaking is up to you.:cool: I feel that scientific evidence supports the bible and I feel that the bible is none other than the word of God. Nothing tells me different so I believe...

L. Ron Hubbard tells me that Scientology is the way, and there's no proof otherwise.

What's the difference?

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
L. Ron Hubbard tells me that Scientology is the way, and there's no proof otherwise.

What's the difference?

the government in the uk likes one and doesnt like the other....

guess which particular bunch of crackpots they dont like ;)

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
L. Ron Hubbard tells me that Scientology is the way, and there's no proof otherwise.

What's the difference?

The difference is emotion and love and thought and all the things I don't think came into existence by accident. I think somebody cares about us and I feel all of creation proves it. I feel it is safe and secure to be certain that life has a purpose and to be hopeful about our future. And I feel that prayer is a priviledge that I can use to build a relationship with my creator and I love knowing that He hears me. To me it's and indisputable fact.

Do you REALLY want to go there w/ me Greb? ;)

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
priviledge that I can use to build a relationship with my creator and I love knowing that He hears me.

hmmm you know call me a skeptic but how do you know he hears you? wheres your proof beyond reasonable doubt?

sorry, i am tired and crabby. dont kill me siren

;):D

Paterfamilias

05-20-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Okay, I guess there is evidence that a man named Jesus did live. But I don't believe there's proof that he was the son of God, and that he was immaculately conceived and all that. He was a person, as far as I'm concerned. A Jewish Carpenter.;)

Cool. If we set aside the "Son of God" issue, I still hold to my original statement that Jesus's teachings (even if he was just a Jewish carpenter) were not to hold people down. His was a message of love, grace, mercy, and hope.

For the record, I believe that he is, indeed who He claims to be, the Son of God.

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
The difference is emotion and love and thought and all the things I don't think came into existence by accident. I think somebody cares about us and I feel all of creation proves it. I feel it is safe and secure to be certain that life has a purpose and to be hopeful about our future. And I feel that prayer is a priviledge that I can use to build a relationship with my creator and I love knowing that He hears me. To me it's and indisputable fact.

Do you REALLY want to go there w/ me Greb? ;)

Go where, exactly? All those things you feel because you choose to believe. I would counter that science does NOT in fact prove all these theories true. Science in fact counters the vast majority of creationism.

Again, I don't fault you or anybody for believing. I can't find it in me to accept things on blind faith. Goes against my analytical nature.

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
Cool. If we set aside the "Son of God" issue, I still hold to my original statement that Jesus's teachings (even if he was just a Jewish carpenter) were not to hold people down. His was a message of love, grace, mercy, and hope.

For the record, I believe that he is, indeed who He claims to be, the Son of God.

And I applaud you for believing. Truly. I don't know how.

And yes, those were his teachings, if you believe. And if all the fervent followers practiced as they preached, we would indeed live in a better world.

I'm not picking on Christianity, either. I feel the sam eway about all organized religion. The Muslims claim that there religion was founded in peace. If all those fervent followers practiced that, there would be no war.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Go where, exactly? All those things you feel because you choose to believe. I would counter that science does NOT in fact prove all these theories true. Science in fact counters the vast majority of creationism.

Again, I don't fault you or anybody for believing. I can't find it in me to accept things on blind faith. Goes against my analytical nature.

Just joking around on the 'go there' statement. Science actually does not disprove creation. Believe me, I've got an analytical nature myself and if anyone had been able to tell me one simple thing that proved the world was not created I wouldve developed a thread of doubt myself. But there is no evidence that it was not and I feel that is because it WAS. My analytical brain sees more to understand in logic and design than in any type of silly 'big bang'.

Blind faith is a relative term. The bible's description of faith is 'the assured expection of things hoped for; of realities seen though not beheld.' To me there is more evidence of God than of gravity or wind...also things I cannot see.

And if I didnt believe in God it would be difficult for me to believe in anything at all...it's just that simple.:)

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 02:28 PM

ok i guess its time i chucked a full tuppence worth in here.

i have not always been so anti-organised religion. i did flirt with christianity in my youth, i felt that it may open the answers to a lot of questions i did not know the answers to do. and maybe its just me, but i didnt feel anything. i felt like i was having the same old stale propoganda rammed down my throat. i really did manage to convince myself at one point that there was something out there. but as i grew older, i realised that there almost certainly isnt. i mean, if there is a god, why does he not take more of an interest in his creation? if there was a god, would he not have intevened and pointed out that we are slowly killing this planet? the whole organised religion thing felt forced to me. to much like another way to get people moving in the same direction. and i think too many people use it an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for the their lives. its god will that this should happen, that kind of thing.

anyway, siren, isnt hunting a little bit out of line with peace and love? and arent those the creatures of your creator that you are splattering over the horizon with a 12 bore shotgun?

like i said early, religion has been behind too many deaths, whether or not it is a front as bubba put it. hell, over the last 2000 years or so of humanity its probably been a little of both at different times. i cant buy into it personally..my mind rejects beliefs without facts. i have to believe in whats there. like greb said, its a bit much for analytical mind...organised religion has always felt like propoganda by another name...

i am sorry if this offends anyway, its not my intention to offend at all.

Paterfamilias

05-20-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
And I applaud you for believing. Truly. I don't know how.

And yes, those were his teachings, if you believe. And if all the fervent followers practiced as they preached, we would indeed live in a better world....

We can definately agree on that!! It is sad that the truth gets distorted by people who claim to be Christians. I honestly don't know how one gets from the teachings of Jesus to the judgemental/condemning attitude of many in the "church".

Jedi

05-20-2003, 02:35 PM

See my point from this whole rant thread? Going off-topic :D

Jason Voorhees

05-20-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
All those things you feel because you choose to believe. I would counter that science does NOT in fact prove all these theories true. Science in fact counters the vast majority of creationism.

Well, I'd say belief chose Siren rather than Siren chose belief...but that's just me :).

I agree with you, Greb, that religion and logic rarely coalesce. We could get into a long discussion about that, but it probably wouldn't go anywhere.

Why does Satan punish sinners he should adore to prove a point to a God he's supposed to despise?

But also like Greb, I admire those who are able to use their faith to promote good in the world. The religion itself isn't so bad; it's just some of the people of who practice it. Distort it for their own gain.

But that's just my meaningless 0.02.

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
like i said early, religion has been behind too many deaths, whether or not it is a front as bubba put it. hell, over the last 2000 years or so of humanity its probably been a little of both at different times. i cant buy into it personally..my mind rejects beliefs without facts. i have to believe in whats there. like greb said, its a bit much for analytical mind...organised religion has always felt like propoganda by another name...

My thoughts exactly. I can't wrap my head around discounting all the discoveries science has made as false. Makes no sense, to me.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
ok i guess its time i chucked a full tuppence worth in here.

i have not always been so anti-organised religion. i did flirt with christianity in my youth, i felt that it may open the answers to a lot of questions i did not know the answers to do. and maybe its just me, but i didnt feel anything. i felt like i was having the same old stale propoganda rammed down my throat. i really did manage to convince myself at one point that there was something out there. but as i grew older, i realised that there almost certainly isnt. i mean, if there is a god, why does he not take more of an interest in his creation? if there was a god, would he not have intevened and pointed out that we are slowly killing this planet? the whole organised religion thing felt forced to me. to much like another way to get people moving in the same direction. and i think too many people use it an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for the their lives. its god will that this should happen, that kind of thing.

anyway, siren, isnt hunting a little bit out of line with peace and love? and arent those the creatures of your creator that you are splattering over the horizon with a 12 bore shotgun?

like i said early, religion has been behind too many deaths, whether or not it is a front as bubba put it. hell, over the last 2000 years or so of humanity its probably been a little of both at different times. i cant buy into it personally..my mind rejects beliefs without facts. i have to believe in whats there. like greb said, its a bit much for analytical mind...organised religion has always felt like propoganda by another name...

i am sorry if this offends anyway, its not my intention to offend at all.

Not offensive at all and extremely understandable. Most organized religion looks the same way to me. Christ said you would know his true followers by the 'love' they show...

About hunting, I believe that's a conscience matter. God gave man meat to eat after Adam and Eve left the garden and animals were killed for sacrifice as part of the Mosaic law. Whether you choose to kill the animal yourself or have someone else do it for you or even whether you choose to be a vegetarian is entirely up to your conscience. So there.:D Yummy venison. Would you like me to save you a nice steak?

The Postmaster General

05-20-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
L. Ron Hubbard tells me that Scientology is the way, and there's no proof otherwise.

What's the difference?

Scientology does not consider itself a religion, but an organization.

The difference is that homeless people without incomes can't learn ALL of the principals from the Church of Scientology.

Pretty much anyone can pick up a The King James Bible, and know what it's all about. (That was just one example, but it holds true for all of the major religions, as far as I can see.)

What I feel that a lot of people don't see, is that....

Well.... let's say that people formed chess clubs, and those people decided to, IN THE NAME OF THE CHESS CLUB, go out and take over other clubs....

Man, I'm not imaginative enough to finish that scenario, but maybe you see where I'm based at in my regards to religion.

I can't see the harm of something that brings people together, and encourages peace -- DESPITE the acts of the corrupt.

Okay, great! We get rid of religion. All of these corrupt motherfuckers will just go out and climb ladders at Enron.

The scenario with parents being hypocritical -- Maybe they just shouldn't have been doing what they were doing, you know? I think we've all perhaps dabbled in the apparently tabboo black magic of hypocracy, but that doesn't mean the original action was without merit.

I'm with you on your skepticism, and totally see where you are coming from. Something is fishy is sausage land, and it stinks to high heaven, or should I say it stinks to high "concept of a better sense of self"? Either way, I'm just not thinking that you are focusing your skepticism in the right places.

Why aren't there tougher laws to deal with individuals who manipulate non-profit organizations, such as churches? Why are they liable to the same consequences as those 'white collar" creeps who piss on capital based buisinesses? When the profiteers go down, only those who have freely invested into such companies take hard-ship (meaning all people who make a choice to be connected whether through stocks or a job)? But when the Catholic church goes down, we are talking about things that are being supported by the community through taxes and donations. The results spread much further and run much deeper, I didn't even touch on the emotional and psychological impact that is turned loose.

The laws against such crimes should be more severe. Let's start there.

There are solutions. We don't have to tear down the barn because there's a few loose hinges. The point of the matter is to inform people of their rights, excuse me.... their God-given inaliable rights, so that they will speak out against such wrong-doers in the church. They can take away our trust, our money, our dignity, but they can't take away our right to shout them out into the open.

So whatever. Just wanted to talk about that.

Happy New Year, Merry Christmas, and a rollicking Eid ul Fitr! Gee, I hope I got that in the right context.

David Koresh claimed to be the Son of God. People claimed Jesus to be the Son of God. Big difference.

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 02:46 PM

oh i am not against eating meat. i was just interested to see how you would get your way out of that one ;)

never tried venison so save me a bit ;)

as for this true followers thing, does that mean you are saying you are a true follower? and if so, doesnt that seem slightly like pride or ego a little? :D

sorry, i am making a go of this because i tired and crabby ;)

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
My thoughts exactly. I can't wrap my head around discounting all the discoveries science has made as false. Makes no sense, to me.

To me it's much harder to discount the fact that man is imperfect. That man only thinks w/ a teensy portion of his brain. That mankind seems to think that simply because they cannot comprehend something, it must not exist. I think the bible offers a handhold on something real, something believeable and something much higher than all of us. It is a perfect guidebook to live your life by and makes perfect sense of this silly conscience we all seem to be born with. And even piddly little scientists with all of their discoveries have never disproved a thing in it, though they certainly have tried. I think science continues to try to find these types of proofs because it would help people so much not to be accountable to anyone, wouldnt it?

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
oh i am not against eating meat. i was just interested to see how you would get your way out of that one ;)

never tried venison so save me a bit ;)

as for this true followers thing, does that mean you are saying you are a true follower? and if so, doesnt that seem slightly like pride or ego a little? :D

sorry, i am making a go of this because i tired and crabby ;)

Jesus was simply making that statement about love being the recognizable trait because most anyone that saw attrocious acts being committed in the name of religion would know that these ones were obviously not acting on his behalf or behaving the way that he encouraged....

As to whether I'm one of those, I certainly try to be and that's all any of us can do.

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 03:01 PM

hmmm another point, what about all the people punished during the old testment for not doing things his way? thats not exactly loving is it?????

you dont do it my way, so i am gonna wipe you out.

(i really swear i am not picking on you!!!:D)

The Postmaster General

05-20-2003, 03:05 PM

This is my bible:

http://www.mark-larry-stuff.com/graphics/items/ChroGoodCitizen.gif

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 03:07 PM

I'm not accountable to any unseen deity, yet I live my life and treat others as well or better than most, I think. The bible has good ideas. It's a great NOVEL. Novel denoting fiction. If even some of the professed followers lived their lives exactly as instructed by the bible, there would be far fewer problems. But not even one person does. Not even the pope.

I don't think science tries to disprove the bible at all. I think they want to know what is REALLY happening around them. If it contradicts the bible, so be it. And you say that science has never disproven anything in the bible? I disagree.

Bubba, you're right on about holding churches and religions accountable. That's half the problem. They've run rampant for so long, it's almost irreversible. And they've done it because the lawmakers all subscribe to their tenets, and are afraid of being removed from power by disagreeing. They would also lose votes from their constituents who believe.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:07 PM

Well, let's put it this way...If YOU created a race of beings and they decided that no matter what you gave them it wasnt enough and that the guidelines you set out (beneficial guidelines for their health and life) for them were unimportant and not worthy of being followed, wouldnt you be strict? 'Oh by the way Lord, I know you gave me life and created me and all but I think I'll worship this here tree instead. Ok? Ok.' :rolleyes:

Oh, that was to Quoth The Raven, by the way....;)

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Well, let's put it this way...If YOU created a race of beings and they decided that no matter what you gave them it wasnt enough and that the guidelines you set out (beneficial guidelines for their health and life) for them were unimportant and not worthy of being followed, wouldnt you be strict? 'Oh by the way Lord, I know you gave me life and created me and all but I think I'll worship this here tree instead. Ok? Ok.' :rolleyes:

Oh, that was to Quoth The Raven, by the way....;)

so why hasnt he followed through that conduct to the modern day then?

;)

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Well, let's put it this way...If YOU created a race of beings and they decided that no matter what you gave them it wasnt enough and that the guidelines you set out (beneficial guidelines for their health and life) for them were unimportant and not worthy of being followed, wouldnt you be strict? 'Oh by the way Lord, I know you gave me life and created me and all but I think I'll worship this here tree instead. Ok? Ok.' :rolleyes:

Oh, that was to Quoth The Raven, by the way....;)

So if Jesus' dad is God, and created all, and gave everything to everybody, then the Muslims who believe in Allah should be dealt with harshly?

Isn't that the same as believing in a tree?

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 03:13 PM

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
I'm not accountable to any unseen deity, yet I live my life and treat others as well or better than most, I think. The bible has good ideas. It's a great NOVEL. Novel denoting fiction. If even some of the professed followers lived their lives exactly as instructed by the bible, there would be far fewer problems. But not even one person does. Not even the pope.

I don't think science tries to disprove the bible at all. I think they want to know what is REALLY happening around them. If it contradicts the bible, so be it. And you say that science has never disproven anything in the bible? I disagree.

Bubba, you're right on about holding churches and religions accountable. That's half the problem. They've run rampant for so long, it's almost irreversible. And they've done it because the lawmakers all subscribe to their tenets, and are afraid of being removed from power by disagreeing. They would also lose votes from their constituents who believe.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

Well, pardon me for saying it Grebdron but you really don't KNOW you aren't accountable do you? You only choose to believe you aren't. Well, I choose to believe I am and that everyone is. You are not the only person who believes the bible is just a good novel but there is too much fact in it to sway me that way. I don't think any novel could influence human life the way the bible has and cause quite so much debate. And I am sorry but I flatly disagree that no one can live their lives by bible standards. I do. My family does. I believe the standards were set because they are there for us to follow and God would never ask something of us that was impossible. He allows for error based on imperfection.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:16 PM

I'm gonna PM you, Raven. Way to much to talk about here. And I'm already getting a 'shut up Siren' vibe....:D

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Well, pardon me for saying it Grebdron but you really don't KNOW you aren't accountable do you?

yes but siren you only believe you are accountable, you dont KNOW you are accountable do you?

:D:D

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 03:17 PM

So you've never coveted, or envied, etc?

I said that nobody lives their lives entirely by the Bible.

Can I go through this whole life not believing, but on my death bed give myself to Christ and go to heaven?

Can Jeffrey Dahmer?

The Postmaster General

05-20-2003, 03:17 PM

...

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
So if Jesus' dad is God, and created all, and gave everything to everybody, then the Muslims who believe in Allah should be dealt with harshly?

Isn't that the same as believing in a tree?

Not sure I understand this question? Is what the same as believing in a tree? Believing in Allah? I really don't know how God views that.

I do know that there is one God. He created the earth and the heavens and the spirit creatures and he exacts exclusive devotion. If you are moved by love to worship your creator and you live your life in accordance w/ his will then you have God's favor. No one on earth can say who those ones are but God. Some people are misled by religious leaders...Christ felt pity for those ones. God judges your heart condition and no man can do that.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
yes but siren you only believe you are accountable, you dont KNOW you are accountable do you?

:D:D

I know I am. But it's based on a knowledge of the scriptures and faith. I don't expect you to understand that. And I choose to feel that way.

So, I guess Grebdron could feel that way too based on his knowledge of himself.....hmmm. My wording was bad.:D

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
I know I am. But it's based on a knowledge of the scriptures and faith. I don't expect you to understand that. And I choose to feel that way.

faith can be misleading. and how, again, can you know the scriptures are "the way" so to speak? again its just your subjective opinion. so at the end of the day, i think you should rephrase yourself. you believe it, you think it and probably hope,but you can not be 100% sure can you? subjectively in your mind, maybe, but step out your head for a moment and try to see it my way...

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:38 PM

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
faith can be misleading. and how, again, can you know the scriptures are "the way" so to speak? again its just your subjective opinion. so at the end of the day, i think you should rephrase yourself. you believe it, you think it and probably hope,but you can not be 100% sure can you? subjectively in your mind, maybe, but step out your head for a moment and try to see it my way...

faith cannot be misleading. People can mislead people but faith is 'an assured expection..a reality see though not beheld'. So yes it is possible to say I'm 100% sure. There is no doubt in my mind.

Looking back, this is the most serious discussion I think the schmoes might ever have engaged in since Sept 11th. Kudos to us!:D

Jedi

05-20-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Not sure I understand this question? Is what the same as believing in a tree? Believing in Allah? I really don't know how God views that.

Just to state something I see some people are using in a confused way: Allah means God in Arabic and it is used in the Arabic world by both Christians and Muslims. So, God is NOT different from Allah. It's a matter of translation.

When Arabic Christians refer to God (Father of Jesus) they say Allah. And sometimes they refer to Jesus with the same word, Allah.

Allah is same as God for Satan's sake :D So it is the same God all believers worship!

TATU

05-20-2003, 03:59 PM

What's with all this heady religious talk??? On Joblo's movie Club??? And that's exactly the thing that's bugging me right now: This is a movie message board not a place for religious or philisophical disscussions.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Jedi
Just to state something I see some people are using in a confused way: Allah means God in Arabic and it is used in the Arabic world by both Christians and Muslims. So, God is NOT different from Allah. It's a matter of translation.

When Arabic Christians refer to God (Father of Jesus) they say Allah. And sometimes they refer to Jesus with the same word, Allah.

Allah is same as God for Satan's sake :D So it is the same God all believers worship!

Right. That's why I wasnt certain what Greb was asking me or how to answer it...

TATU

05-20-2003, 04:00 PM

I practice under thy's ultimate and wordly savior, La Magra-The Great and Allmighty Blood God. All hail La Magra.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by TATU
What's with all this heady religious talk??? On Joblo's movie Club??? And that's exactly the thing that's bugging me right now: This is a movie message board not a place for religious or philisophical disscussions.

Hey, I don't start 'em....I just join 'em. ;)

But in reality I guess it's because the longer we post the more we become familiar w/ our fellow schmoes and sometimes movie conversations turn into something else...

Jason Voorhees

05-20-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by TATU
What's with all this heady religious talk??? On Joblo's movie Club??? And that's exactly the thing that's bugging me right now: This is a movie message board not a place for religious or philisophical disscussions.

Personally, I find the irony of the situation a bit more perturbing.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my previous question, by the way...

Jedi

05-20-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by TATU
What's with all this heady religious talk??? On Joblo's movie Club??? And that's exactly the thing that's bugging me right now: This is a movie message board not a place for religious or philisophical disscussions.

Thanks for mentioning that! For I've started this "rant" to say that it's sometimes important to stick to topics! And here we are again.... !

But c'mon! it's interesting, though! And no-one is hitting on no-one and it's cool!

Unlike that ugly old thread.. ;) :p :D

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Jason Voorhees
Personally, I find the irony of the situation a bit more perturbing.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my previous question, by the way...

The question about Satan and sinners Jason? I'm not sure I know what you are asking but from what I can tell it involved whether Satan loves people who choose him over God? The answer to that (that is, from my study of the bible) is that Satan doesnt 'adore' anyone. He hates mankind because they were created in God's image. But that's not even the real issue. Satan's issue is w/ God's sovreignty...his right to rule. He uses people as pawns to show God that with a little pressure he can make men do whatever he wants. Remember the story of Job? Satan is using this time to turn as many people away from God as possible. There is no reward for the people who do what he wants except knowing that you've made him happy.

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Jedi
Thanks for mentioning that! For I've started this "rant" to say that it's sometimes important to stick to topics! And here we are again.... !

But c'mon! it's interesting, though! And no-one is hitting on no-one and it's cool!

Unlike that ugly old thread.. ;) :p :D

Hey I just looked back and it was GREB that started this whole thing....lol. Kill the Greb! Kill the Greb!...:D

Paterfamilias

05-20-2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
So you've never coveted, or envied, etc?

I said that nobody lives their lives entirely by the Bible.

Can I go through this whole life not believing, but on my death bed give myself to Christ and go to heaven?

Can Jeffrey Dahmer?

Wow, I step away from your computer to do some actual work for awhile and come back to see the posts have been flying!!

Grebdron, I cannot speak for Siren or anyone else for that matter, but I for one have certainly not obeyed God's law perfectly. I agree with you (and so does the Bible, actually). In the book of Romans Paul says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." and "there are none who are righteous, not even one" God is holy and set up laws (ten commandments, etc.) for us to live by. He created us in perfection, to be in harmony with Him. But man screwed up, and continues to do so. We turn our backs on God and disobey Him all the time.

But God has shown grace and mercy in sending Jesus, his son, to live a perfect life, and in essence become the perfect sacrifice for our "sins" (disobediece). He died and paid the penalty that I deserve. Despite the fact that I don't deserve it, I will "go to heaven" and have eternal life, not because I have lived a life worthy of it, I haven't but because of what Jesus Christ did on my behalf.

That's why the Gospel message is called Good News because it is just that. I say this not to be judgemental or anything else, I am not trying to force anyone to believe, I merely wanted to share what i believe with all my heart to be true. If we were all hungry and I found a bunch of food, I'd tell ya about it.

Jedi

05-20-2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Hey I just looked back and it was GREB that started this whole thing....lol. Kill the Greb! Kill the Greb!...:D

Ok! Let's kill him :D
I meant opening the thread..

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 04:31 PM

Nice thoughts, Pater.

I agree.There's nowhere in the bible that says you can not sin. If that was the case, none of us have a chance. It's all about forgiveness of the sins you do commit, being imperfect. And it's no man's place to say who receives salvation and who doesnt...that's only for God to say. But the bible also makes it very clear that not everyone will survive. There will be a destruction of 'ungodly men'. So your actions do have to be in keeping what is good and right. Your heart condition must be acceptable.

Jason Voorhees

05-20-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
The question about Satan and sinners Jason?

That's the one :).

Originally posted by SIREN30
Remember the story of Job? Satan is using this time to turn as many people away from God as possible. There is no reward for the people who do what he wants except knowing that you've made him happy.

But wouldn't rewarding those who turn against God expedite his goal in turning as many men as possible against God? It just seems a little incongruous to punish them for doing what is ostensibly "his work."

Thanks for the answer. I wanted to see what a believer would say to that question :).

I also want to reassert that I admire your faith and the high set of morals you've decided to live your life by. So please don't think I'm attacking you or anything. It's not my intention :).

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Jason Voorhees
That's the one :).

But wouldn't rewarding those who turn against God expedite his goal in turning as many men as possible against God? It just seems a little incongruous to punish them for doing what is ostensibly "his work."

Thanks for the answer. I wanted to see what a believer would say to that question :).

I also want to reassert that I admire your faith and the high set of morals you've decided to live your life by. So please don't think I'm attacking you or anything. It's not my intention :).

Well, I'm sure the people who live bad lives feel they are rewarded in some way...it's definitely easier to be bad than to be good. I'm not sure what you mean by punishing them?

Thanks for your nice comment. No offense taken at all...I enjoy these discussions when they are nice.

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 04:46 PM

Nor am I attacking anybody. This is one of the few religious discussions that haven't gone bad.

I'm for killing Greb, too.

To expound on my thoughts, and clear up Jedi's misconception about what I meant...I wasn't exclusively referring to Allah. I could have replaced it with Buddah. My question was what God would think of anybody that didn't believe exclusively in him. From Siren's earlier statement, it sounded like they should be dealt with harshly. Or that God should be strict with them. That would include the majority of the planet.

And the new testament was written to allay alot of the fears of a vengeful God. People had started to question the lovingness, I think. So the church set out to create a more palatable deity. Sort of a Buddy Christ, to put it bluntly. Before the new testament, the belief was in a Hellfire and Brimstone God. But that wasn't working.

Jason Voorhees

05-20-2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
I'm not sure what you mean by punishing them?

I'm referring to the eternity of torment. It just seems illogical to me that Satan would condemn people who do his work to an eternity of suffering.

Originally posted by SIREN30
Thanks for your nice comment. No offense taken at all...I enjoy these discussions when they are nice.

You're welcome :).

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Nor am I attacking anybody. This is one of the few religious discussions that haven't gone bad.

I'm for killing Greb, too.

To expound on my thoughts, and clear up Jedi's misconception about what I meant...I wasn't exclusively referring to Allah. I could have replaced it with Buddah. My question was what God would think of anybody that didn't believe exclusively in him. From Siren's earlier statement, it sounded like they should be dealt with harshly. Or that God should be strict with them. That would include the majority of the planet.

And the new testament was written to allay alot of the fears of a vengeful God. People had started to question the lovingness, I think. So the church set out to create a more palatable deity. Sort of a Buddy Christ, to put it bluntly. Before the new testament, the belief was in a Hellfire and Brimstone God. But that wasn't working.

I'm confused Grebdron, when do you think the new testament was written? I mean, the new testament was written long before the establishment of the 'church' so how is any of that possible? And hellfire and brimstone are mentioned no where in the old or new testament actually, not in the sense the the church uses now...

SIREN30

05-20-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Jason Voorhees
I'm referring to the eternity of torment. It just seems illogical to me that Satan would condemn people who do his work to an eternity of suffering.

You're welcome :).

Well, here's a shock. I don't believe in hell so that's why that didnt occur to me. There is no reason to believe that the eventuality of anyone will be eternal torment. God sometimes punished people w/ death but nowhere did he say 'and then you will burn forever and ever'. THe hebrew words 'hades' and 'sheol' that have been vastly misinterpreted by religions today simply refer to mankind's common grave. Now THAT was a device the churches used to scare people.

I'm interested in seeing how this thread develops but I'm gone for the day....it's been fun...:p

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 05:09 PM

No, hellfire and brimstone aren't "mentioned." But that was the crux of the old testament. Punishment for sins. The new testament switched to a more loving god.

And if god is all powerful, then he CHOOSES to allow Satan and evil to happen. He could stop it if he wanted. He doesn't want to? That's not exactly a loving god.

Are we his antfarm? Does he enjoy the goings on?

Reigh Kaufman

05-20-2003, 06:11 PM

Some of you are forgetting the holy scriptures. Moses? He went up a mountain and retrieved a set of tablets containing ten commandmants?

Well, one of them said 'Thou shalt not kill Grebdron...just mock his age and his haircut'

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
faith cannot be misleading. People can mislead people but faith is 'an assured expection..a reality see though not beheld'. So yes it is possible to say I'm 100% sure. There is no doubt in my mind.

Looking back, this is the most serious discussion I think the schmoes might ever have engaged in since Sept 11th. Kudos to us!:D

so what if the faith is at the very core misleading? what if you have faith in something that simply is not true?

like is aid, its all subjective anyway. you are 100% sure about something you wont experience until you die. and thats gonna make bragging about how right you are very difficult.;)

as for hell siren...why can you believe in one and not the other? arent they just the flipsides of the same coin in a way?

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
Some of you are forgetting the holy scriptures. Moses? He went up a mountain and retrieved a set of tablets containing ten commandmants?

Well, one of them said 'Thou shalt not kill Grebdron...just mock his age and his haircut'

"I bring to you these 15...10. 10 commandments!"

quoth_the_raven

05-20-2003, 06:38 PM

and lo, the 11th commandment was revealed. and upon the tablet were inscribed...thou shalt not pay attention to reigh kaufamn, for lo, he is a fool and foolish are his ways. many a comment born of light-heartedness shall bring forth from his lips, but, if thou dost ignore him, he may go away.

:D:D:D

(sorry reigh, :))

Grebdron

05-20-2003, 06:47 PM

And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards Reigh Kaufman, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.

electriclite

05-21-2003, 01:50 AM

Paterfamilias

05-21-2003, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Grebdron
And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards Reigh Kaufman, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.

..."and with it thou might blow thine enemy to bits ..in thy mercy"

one, two, five :)

Nothin' like a little Python to lighten the mood a little. I too have enjoyed this conversation and am glad to see we can discuss some of these issues with respect toward each other.

Paterfamilias

05-21-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Grebdron
No, hellfire and brimstone aren't "mentioned." But that was the crux of the old testament. Punishment for sins. The new testament switched to a more loving god.

And if god is all powerful, then he CHOOSES to allow Satan and evil to happen. He could stop it if he wanted. He doesn't want to? That's not exactly a loving god.

Are we his antfarm? Does he enjoy the goings on?

Great questions!! I struggle with this too. In some ways, I think we are His antfarm in that He created us. And, yes he could stop evil from happening, but He doesn't. I believe He allows us to make choices and those choices have resulted in evil, pain, etc.

Here's an analogy, (and as all analogies, this will fall short) but here it goes. I love my children, My wife and I "created" them. I could keep them completely safe and sheltered from the world by never allowing them to leave their room. but because I love them, I allow them to play and explore, etc. And sometimes they get hurt. I think God created us, loves us, and let's us be ourselves. I believe that he delights when we worship Him and grieves when we disobey Him or don't acknowledge Him.

There are many mysteries regarding God, creation, people, etc. and like QTR said, we won't really know until we die. I certainly do not think I have all the answers, ...but I'm trying, Ringo, I'm trying real hard to be the shepherd. What I can say is that in my life ...God got involved:D

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Grebdron
No, hellfire and brimstone aren't "mentioned." But that was the crux of the old testament. Punishment for sins. The new testament switched to a more loving god.

And if god is all powerful, then he CHOOSES to allow Satan and evil to happen. He could stop it if he wanted. He doesn't want to? That's not exactly a loving god.

Are we his antfarm? Does he enjoy the goings on?

I just sat down and I haven't read any farther than this post yet so I don't know if someone has answered you or not.

No, the new testament did not switch to a new and loving God. The God of the old testament is loving too. I know you may not feel that way but there is nothing unloving about any of the things in the Mosaic law covenant though to our imperfect minds some of the things may seem strict. Remember, there is a basic theme throughout the bible and when you only read 'bits and pieces' or take things out of context it will always look different.

God is loving because HE CHOOSES to allow man mor time to mend their ways before he takes action. He could have made man w/out the freedom of choice at all but he chose to see just who would follow him out of love and who would not. Your argument about mankind's suffering is probably the number 1 argument by nonbelievers today and it's perfectly understandable but there is a perfect explanation for the suffering mankind goes through and there will be an inevitable solution to all of it.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 11:32 AM

See, I really struggle with this stuff because I'm a recovering drug addict. AA really pushes faith. Many people in AA claim that you CANNOT recover without God. I hope that's not true.

I was raised Christian, but was allowed at an early age to decide for myself. The whole concept baffles me. I'm not ignorant to religion. I actually know quite a bit about Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, etc. But I don't know HOW to believe. I see all the bad things happen and think that even if there is a God, he's not someone I would worship. Or even have a cup of coffee with.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
so what if the faith is at the very core misleading? what if you have faith in something that simply is not true?

like is aid, its all subjective anyway. you are 100% sure about something you wont experience until you die. and thats gonna make bragging about how right you are very difficult.;)

as for hell siren...why can you believe in one and not the other? arent they just the flipsides of the same coin in a way?

In my mind there is no doubt so therefore it is impossible for me to think in terms of 'what if'? I have studied the bible my whole life and there is absolutely nothing about it that is not worth believing...if there was I wouldnt believe. I was not baptized as a baby...I made my dedication after I came to what I believe is an 'accurate knowledge' of the scriptures. The proofs to me of the bible's truth are overwhelming. And also it is entirely possible that I may never die...there are many living now who will not according to the bible. Some people will survive through Armegeddon. Please don't refer to my defending of my faith as bragging. Being certain about something doesnt make you a 'braggart'.:)

It's very easy not to believe in hell. You seem to think all religions and in Christendom are the same. I'm telling you they are not and there is absolutely no evidence of a burning firey hell in the bible. There is no 'coin' to flip. To say one can't exist without the other is to say there is some type of mold you have to fit into to believe in Christ.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 11:47 AM

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias

Nothin' like a little Python to lighten the mood a little. I too have enjoyed this conversation and am glad to see we can discuss some of these issues with respect toward each other.

amen to that pater (did ya see what i did there?did ya?)

siren you are still talking about something that has no basis in the physical world beyond your own mental manifestations of it.

ok, you can claim the bible. but how do you respond to the theory that i read a while back, that is it nothing but another myth. a lovely story to try and give people some belief in the insubstantial?

i wasnt accusing you of being a braggart. i was making the first light hearted comment about the fact that you will only find out your beliefs are correct on death. which is going to make telling the rest of us that you were right about difficult.

surely there is a mold you must fit? isnt that what religion is all about? fitting into the mold of a specified faith???

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Do you believe in gravity? Do you believe in air? Of course you do. Because you see evidence of them every day and you couldnt live w/out them. I

You just have to ask yourself, which makes more sense. That all of this amazing stuff just happened by chance or that someone designed it w/ perfect precision? Then you can start answering the questions like...well If he does exist why does he permit suffering?

yes i believe in gravity. because i see its affects every day around me. i believe in air cause i feel myself breathing? but believing in a higher being i can not do. because i dont see it, i dont see it in this world at all.

i am sorry but what was perfect about this planet? if we hold onto the theory that god created this world for a moment, its been flawed from also the start. god created adam and eve, and they prertty much screwed it up then and we have been screwing the world up pretty much since. i dont see perfection.

no id rather believe we have come about chance. its a lot easier to stomach. i mean there is so much evidence of evolution, everything that came about chance now, that really makes me believe it. but if you can find me a bible passage that tells me what happened tpo the dinosaurs and the woolly mammoth...where did they come from? or is that just stuff god left lying around afterwards to throw us off the scent?

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
amen to that pater (did ya see what i did there?did ya?)

siren you are still talking about something that has no basis in the physical world beyond your own mental manifestations of it.

ok, you can claim the bible. but how do you respond to the theory that i read a while back, that is it nothing but another myth. a lovely story to try and give people some belief in the insubstantial?

i wasnt accusing you of being a braggart. i was making the first light hearted comment about the fact that you will only find out your beliefs are correct on death. which is going to make telling the rest of us that you were right about difficult.

surely there is a mold you must fit? isnt that what religion is all about? fitting into the mold of a specified faith???

I'm sorry you feel like my beliefs have no basis. I think they do. I think there is plenty of physical evidence to support what I believe and most of it is dependant on whether the bible is true or not. I believe (after much extensive research) that it is. I respond to the theory that it is a myth w/ laughter because it's just not possible. A myth would not have this kind of impact or raise these types of discussions. The earliest masoretic text and the translation I use have little or not differences...how is that possible? The tangible evidence of the people who lived in the bible is fact...it's there. There are scientific facts in the bible that were unknown to man until centuries later. It is written in a candid manner that is similar to no other fictional work in history.

There is no mold. It would be impossible for imperfect man to fit into any kind of mold, so to speak. The bible contains principles and two basic laws: 'you must love Jehovah your God w/ your whole mind, heart, soul, and strength' and 'you must love your neighbor as yourself'. That's the only mold I'm aware of....

If the planet wasnt perfect you couldnt live on it, Raven. The imperfections you speak of were brought about by man. It's not very likely that some mysterious 'big bang' could place the earth at exactly the proper distance from the sun, providing us not only w/ perfect temperatures in which to live but the pleasure of changing seasons as well. Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey their creator...it's true they screwed things up. But it's not forever. If you think that evolution is more believable (even though it was conceived by imperfect man) then that is your belief. I choose to believe that someone much smarter than man knows the real answer, one that is much more easily explained. Dinosaurs and the Wooly mammoth obviously served some purpose but since they were more than likely wiped out in the flood (supported by science that a great deluge did occur), their purpose must have been served. I personally think the dinosaurs existed to prune the shrubs and fertilize the earth...but that's just my opinion.:cool:

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by SIREN30
.

There is no mold. It would be impossible for imperfect man to fit into any kind of mold, so to speak. The bible contains principles and two basic laws: 'you must love Jehovah your God w/ your whole mind, heart, soul, and strength' and 'you must love your neighbor as yourself'. That's the only mold I'm aware of....

well, the fact that religions have their rules and their laws suggest to me that they are in fact molds. act this way, think like this....yeah, sounds like a mold to me.

its funny siren, because i too have studied the bible in my time (i was actually confirmed before i realised it wasnt real or right) and i dont see any of the evidence that you do.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
well, the fact that religions have their rules and their laws suggest to me that they are in fact molds. act this way, think like this....yeah, sounds like a mold to me.

its funny siren, because i too have studied the bible in my time (i was actually confirmed before i realised it wasnt real or right) and i dont see any of the evidence that you do.

Religions have no right to have rules and laws The only laws we must abide by are in the bible and they are relatively easy to follow. If someone is telling you to 'think 'a certain way...that's ludicrous. That doesnt work. And yes, that does sound like a mold. I'm glad I don't belong to THAT kind of organization.

I'm sorry your study of the bible hasnt been fruitful. I'd be glad to discuss your problems w/ it point by point but that would probably take a lot of your time.:p

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Do you believe in gravity? Do you believe in air? Of course you do. Because you see evidence of them every day and you couldnt live w/out them. I feel the same way about God. When I look at my child's face and how perfect all of his little fingers and toes are constructed, I see evidence of God. When I see someone choose right over wrong because their conscience dictates it (something unique only to mankind), I see evidence of God. When I see a war torn city begin to bloom and flower because nature doesnt know the difference, I see evidence of God.

You just have to ask yourself, which makes more sense. That all of this amazing stuff just happened by chance or that someone designed it w/ perfect precision? Then you can start answering the questions like...well If he does exist why does he permit suffering?

What if your baby had been born deformed? Or autistic? Those happen every day. Is God's "perfection" present there?

It makes more sense to me that chemical reactions happened, molecules exploded, and evolution began. There is a vast amount of physical evidence to support this theory. The universe is constantly expanding. That can be seen with telescopes.

Here's a thought...maybe this "God" actually set in motion the process of the big bang, and evolution.

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30

I'm sorry your study of the bible hasnt been fruitful. I'd be glad to discuss your problems w/ it point by point but that would probably take a lot of your time.:p

dont worry about it siren. going through it with me point by point would just give me more holes to point out in your direction. you'd be answering my criticisms during this life and a good portion of your (alleged) eternity as well.

:D

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
What if your baby had been born deformed? Or autistic? Those happen every day. Is God's "perfection" present there?

It makes more sense to me that chemical reactions happened, molecules exploded, and evolution began. There is a vast amount of physical evidence to support this theory. The universe is constantly expanding. That can be seen with telescopes.

Here's a thought...maybe this "God" actually set in motion the process of the big bang, and evolution.

His perfection is still evident. Have you ever seen how much a parent of an autistic or deformed baby loves it? It's beautiful. God did not cause these deformities or imperfections...it is because of man that these things occur and it will be fixed in the future. Man was created perfect and eventually he will be perfect again.

Evolution is a bunch of bunk if you ask me.:rolleyes: Evidence shmevidence. THe universe expanding doesnt mean a thing to me...is it not just as possible that God set this in motion? I don't think it was a big bang however....too chaotic.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
dont worry about it siren. going through it with me point by point would just give me more holes to point out in your direction. you'd be answering my criticisms during this life and a good portion of your (alleged) eternity as well.

:D

Now youre just being synical. I study the bible point by point w/ people all the time. Used to do it full time actually. Funny, nobody has ever been able to point out a single hole????:confused: :D Most people are anxious to have some type of hope for the future and even in these times people choose to believe the bible,for the most part. Its the only thing that gives a hope for mankind. I'd rather be certain of a hope than floating around w/ no purpose. Not that you are, mind you.:D

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30

Evolution is a bunch of bunk if you ask me.:rolleyes: Evidence shmevidence. THe universe expanding doesnt mean a thing to me...is it not just as possible that God set this in motion? I don't think it was a big bang however....too chaotic.

but the universe is chaotic anyway. its going to be full of so many variations and fluctuations across the entire of it, that it pretty much only could have come from chaos,.

besides, i see a lot more evidence for evolutions than for it all popping fully formed? too much in the way the world was shaped, too many prehistoric creatures.

actually where was the sabre-toothed tiger in the bible? i fear i missed that verse...

;)

arto_j

05-21-2003, 12:13 PM

Maybe Douglas Adams got it right. I think mice created earth as an experiment.

Unlikely? If you've read the book, you'll find that ironic ;)

I think Greb was not too far off in that last sentence, maybe some supreme being, you may call him God or whatever, set all this stuff in motion...Maybe he did create all this, gave a few guidelines that we may or may not choose to follow to perhaps make life more pleasant. Maybe since then he just sat back and watched the show. I'm open to an explanation like this.

I'm not religious in any way, I don't "really" belive in God (my vocabulary fails me). But I don't see it impossible that he is out there, or was there and set things in motion, I'm open to it. Right now I just don't really believe in that.

But I haven't really made up my mind for good yet, I think I have some time to examine both sides closer in the future.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 12:14 PM

The people you're studying with aren't looking for holes.

"Evidence Schmevidence" pretty much sums up fervent followers' reactions to being confronted with facts.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
but the universe is chaotic anyway. its going to be full of so many variations and fluctuations across the entire of it, that it pretty much only could have come from chaos,.

besides, i see a lot more evidence for evolutions than for it all popping fully formed? too much in the way the world was shaped, too many prehistoric creatures.

actually where was the sabre-toothed tiger in the bible? i fear i missed that verse...

;)

So the bible saying that each animal was created 'according to its kind' doesnt fly with you? Oh well. And the lack of the sabre toothed tiger being mentioned by genus/species in the bible is HARDLY a point for doubt. The tiger is mentioned...how do you know it wasnt a sabretooth?:rolleyes: Pardon me for saying it but the fact that your human mind can't grasp the idea of creation is simply more proof of its possiblity. We don't need to grasp it. We are here.

My study of the universe is a little different than yours I'm afraid. I see so much order it's overwhelming...

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
The people you're studying with aren't looking for holes.

"Evidence Schmevidence" pretty much sums up fervent followers' reactions to being confronted with facts.

Why look for holes? If it gives you hope and if you can see reason to believe then what good does that do you? Don't get me wrong...I am not close minded. I'm an avid reader and have done my research. I just don't believe in evolution. It doesnt 'connect' with me. Just like a creator to which everyone is accountable doesnt 'connect' with you.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 12:28 PM

Like I said, I don't begrudge anybody their faith. If it works for them, dandy. You said nobody has been able to poke holes in the Bible. I say nobody has shown any proof that the Bible is anything more than an astounding work of fiction. Finding a cloak worn a couple thousand years ago doesn't prove anything to me. All it proves is somebody wore a cloak.

There IS indeed a tremendous amount of "order" in the universe. Mathematical order. All of which, IMO, proves the evolution theory.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 12:51 PM

To sum up:

I believe that mankind needs faith. I believe men are born w/ the inherent desire to worship. If it's not God, something else will take that place whether it's money or ambition or their own belly. If you pick up the bible and read it cover to cover (with an open mind and NOT looking for holes) then most people are forced to say that it is probably a historical writing and not just a novel. The bible says things like 'the circle of the earth' centuries before man ever discovered the world was round. It has never been disproven. People have tried but they have not been able to prove it to be false. Not one word of it.

You say God is probably not watching. You say God is a figment of man's imagination and that we aren't accountable to anyone. Fine. I say 'How can you prove that he isnt and we aren't?'.

I'm not willing to take the risk that reasoning that way might be wrong. If I can have the prospect of everlasting life on earth, an earth w/ no wickedness etc. then I'm going to do everything I can to do get me and my family there.

Love and kisses to all of you.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
To sum up:

I believe that mankind needs faith. I believe men are born w/ the inherent desire to worship. If it's not God, something else will take that place whether it's money or ambition or their own belly. If you pick up the bible and read it cover to cover (with an open mind and NOT looking for holes) then most people are forced to say that it is probably a historical writing and not just a novel. The bible says things like 'the circle of the earth' centuries before man ever discovered the world was round. It has never been disproven. People have tried but they have not been able to prove it to be false. Not one word of it.

You say God is probably not watching. You say God is a figment of man's imagination and that we aren't accountable to anyone. Fine. I say 'How can you prove that he isnt and we aren't?'.

I'm not willing to take the risk that reasoning that way might be wrong. If I can have the prospect of everlasting life on earth, an earth w/ no wickedness etc. then I'm going to do everything I can to do get me and my family there.

Love and kisses to all of you.

For thousands of years religion has existed. And there has never been anything remotely like "an earth with no wickedness."

Mankind "needs" faith? I don't. And apparently millions of other people don't. And there are those who believe as fervently as you that do despicable things. (I know. Not all of them do.) And there are millions of non-believers who do not live evil lives. Believing is a choice, and doesn't guarantee any better quality of life.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
For thousands of years religion has existed. And there has never been anything remotely like "an earth with no wickedness."

Mankind "needs" faith? I don't. And apparently millions of other people don't. And there are those who believe as fervently as you that do despicable things. (I know. Not all of them do.) And there are millions of non-believers who do not live evil lives. Believing is a choice, and doesn't guarantee any better quality of life.

There will be an earth without wickedness. A perfect earth that will be a paradise. It's talked about all over the bible. Its God's original purpose for the earth and it will be the eventuality for all who God chooses. Most religions don't believe this. They seem to conveniently skip past those promises but I don't. The earth will be a paradise and I want to be there. I want to see my resurrected loved ones and I want to live in peace forever (a thought my mind cannot even grasp). If you choose not to believe in God but you live a good life, you may still be a resident of this new earth, I dont know. But I worship my creator because I love Him and believe that he'll keep his promises.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 01:06 PM

There will be an earth without wickedness when WWIII wipes out civilization. Only the end of mankind will wipe out wickedness.

Cynical, but true.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
There will be an earth without wickedness when WWIII wipes out civilization. Only the end of mankind will wipe out wickedness.

Cynical, but true.

That is a perfect example of the mindset you have when you only believe what you can see. LOL. Oh well, believe it if it makes you happy. I believe that God will 'bring to ruin those ruing the earth' and that he will not allow man to destroy himself. See how happy I am?:D
When I see things getting worse and the earth becoming so full of wickedness I actually feel elated because everything is happening according to prophecy.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
That is a perfect example of the mindset you have when you only believe what you can see. LOL. Oh well, believe it if it makes you happy. I believe that God will 'bring to ruin those ruing the earth' and that he will not allow man to destroy himself. See how happy I am?:D
When I see things getting worse and the earth becoming so full of wickedness I actually feel elated because everything is happening according to prophecy.

The talk of mankind "ruining" the earth always sounds very egotistical to me. The earth will go on for time imemmorial, long after mankind has done away with itself. We humans don't have the capability to destroy the earth. Merely ourselves.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 01:18 PM

Whatever :rolleyes: It's just an expression. The certainly are trying to ruin it aren't they? No, the earth will never be ruined.

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
No, the earth will never be ruined.

no but, in several billion years it will be wiped out when the sun gives up the ghost and engulfs the whole shebang. mind you, humanity will be somewhere else then. dead, probably. and the mink (or was it meek?) shall inherit the earth.atleast until they are consumed in the suns implosion ;)

That is a perfect example of the mindset you have when you only believe what you can see.

but thats all that can be believed in. everything is substantial, subjective and unproved.

I believe that God will 'bring to ruin those ruing the earth'

well, i think seeing as we are fucking up the planet already, shouldnt we have heard some action from the Big man about this by now?

When I see things getting worse and the earth becoming so full of wickedness I actually feel elated because everything is happening according to prophecy.

but its been wicked right from the moment cain and abel got a little ansty and introduced murder into the world. besides, so full of wickedness. its always been wicked. and prophecy is a very very frail thing to place a lot of hopes. look at nostradamus. he can believe it says whatever, after the fact. its funny how many people buy into prophecy when they see it after the fact...as for the wickedness, yes the world is a cruel place. humanity is cruel. but we have been mudering raping and generally pillaging of mother earth for many many many centuries. surely the prophecy would have come true.

and as for feeling elated that the world is full of wickedness...i hope you are not offended, but i think that makes the perfect point about the harm religion can do.peace and love can away, because the world is gonna be ok for the believers when the prophecy comes true.
isnt that just slightly selfish?

(thats not an insult by the way, i am just arguing the case).

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
and as for feeling elated that the world is full of wickedness...i hope you are not offended, but i think that makes the perfect point about the harm religion can do.peace and love can away, because the world is gonna be ok for the believers when the prophecy comes true.
isnt that just slightly selfish?

Exactly! "We'll be alright, because we believe. Everybody else be damned."

Christians will survive and flourish, but nobody else?

Again, that kind of God won't be invited to my next shindig.

countchocula

05-21-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
His perfection is still evident. Have you ever seen how much a parent of an autistic or deformed baby loves it? It's beautiful. God did not cause these deformities or imperfections...it is because of man that these things occur and it will be fixed in the future. Man was created perfect and eventually he will be perfect again.

I've read most of this thread, but I'm not sure how a religious discussion came to be. I make it a rule not to engage in theological debate with a devout Christian because I've been more productive while chatting with a paper cup. It's pointless of me to even post this and neither one of us will pull a sense of closure away from this conversation, but I've got nothing better to do. Parents of deformed children may be content, and they may be very grateful for their offspring, but in my experience (and yes, I'm opting to be vague), I find that the deformed child isn't content and that they aren't grateful for the cards that they've been dealt. That’s a generalization, but I have my resources. If God does indeed exist, he's selfish and egotistical. What do you say to someone who has tried to reach out to God only to have his/her desperate plea met with cold silence? What do you say to someone with a long history of unanswered prayers?

Personally, I've never had a "religious experience" and God has never "spoken" to me. He's never uttered a word in my direction and I've never felt his (I refuse to capitalize that word) presence. Sorry if this is coming off as muddled, but I have strong opinions concerning religion and I'm not skilled at expressing them.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 02:20 PM

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 02:23 PM

The Postmaster General

05-21-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Exactly! "We'll be alright, because we believe. Everybody else be damned."

Christians will survive and flourish, but nobody else?

Again, that kind of God won't be invited to my next shindig.

It's just that I don't think that snobbery was the original intent of Christianity. That's man's problem. Again, we shouldn't get rid of the thing that reminds us of the problem.

I also think we don't know shit about what will happen when the sun burns out. All we know are that there are organisms, which we have instruments that are able to find them, which in some way rely on the sun to provide them life.

Yeah, remember when we didn't have microscopes and didn't know about germs. How are we not able to speculate that maybe the Earth will go adrift through space, and maybe begin an orbit around another big ole' ball of fire? Remember, this is Spaceship Earth. Well, that's what the voice at EPCOT said.

The point of the matter is that maybe man won't destroy the Earth, but maybe he will make it a living hell for all of us.

People tell me that Wrath of God is a proverbial joke. Haha. I get the joke everytime I watch these earthquakes in places where there aren't supposed to be earthquakes, we have a tornado season... I remember the philosopher Eddie Griffith Jr. once pointed out that hurricanes follow the path of slave ships out of Africa. So, yeah. I guess it is a pretty good joke.

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Yeah, remember when we didn't have microscopes and didn't know about germs. How are we not able to speculate that maybe the Earth will go adrift through space, and maybe begin an orbit around another big ole' ball of fire? Remember, this is Spaceship Earth. Well, that's what the voice at EPCOT said.

Hmm bubba if we get knocked out of orbit, the earth will likely lose its spin, which would also distort gravity a little.i dont fancy being here for that we would also freeze to death as it is gonna take a long long time for us to drift to another planet.

of course, i cant say for sure thats whats gonna happen. as with everything, i would need to see the evidence. theres only one we can find out here, and i, for one, dont really fancy that option ;)

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
It's just that I don't think that snobbery was the original intent of Christianity. That's man's problem. Again, we shouldn't get rid of the thing that reminds us of the problem.

I also think we don't know shit about what will happen when the sun burns out. All we know are that there are organisms, which we have instruments that are able to find them, which in some way rely on the sun to provide them life.

Yeah, remember when we didn't have microscopes and didn't know about germs. How are we not able to speculate that maybe the Earth will go adrift through space, and maybe begin an orbit around another big ole' ball of fire? Remember, this is Spaceship Earth. Well, that's what the voice at EPCOT said.

The point of the matter is that maybe man won't destroy the Earth, but maybe he will make it a living hell for all of us.

People tell me that Wrath of God is a proverbial joke. Haha. I get the joke everytime I watch these earthquakes in places where there aren't supposed to be earthquakes, we have a tornado season... I remember the philosopher Eddie Griffith Jr. once pointed out that hurricanes follow the path of slave ships out of Africa. So, yeah. I guess it is a pretty good joke.

But I want to get rid of it.;)

Not really. The flaws are good for hours and hours of good fun.

I, too, get the joke.

Paterfamilias

05-21-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
See, I really struggle with this stuff because I'm a recovering drug addict. AA really pushes faith. Many people in AA claim that you CANNOT recover without God. I hope that's not true.

I was raised Christian, but was allowed at an early age to decide for myself. The whole concept baffles me. I'm not ignorant to religion. I actually know quite a bit about Catholicism, Christianity, Judaism, etc. But I don't know HOW to believe. I see all the bad things happen and think that even if there is a God, he's not someone I would worship. Or even have a cup of coffee with.

Man, you guys do get busy postin in the afternoon don't ya. I've got a lot of catching up to do.

Greb,

I would not say that you CANNOT recover without God, but I know He sure helped me. I spent many years in a drug induced stupor.

As far as How to believe, I don't know exactly what to tell you. I was very sceptical as well, and I guess I stepped out in faith one night and talked to God. I had been experiencing a lot of terrifying flashbacks when I laid in bed at night. I could not sleep and I just started talking (praying) to God. I was honest with Him. I said, "God, I've heard a lot about you and I don't know what to believe. I know that what I have been trying to fill my life with is leading to a dead end. If you're real, let me know."

I then did something I had heard about at my church youth group years before. I asked God to forgive me for the things I had been doing that were not pleasing to Him, and I asked "Jesus to come into my heart". I didn't even know exactly what that meant. I slept like a baby.

After that I just started reading the Bible and talking to people at my church about God and Jesus. I asked a lot of questions , both of God and of people I knew who were Christians. God began to reveal Himself to me through experience and though the Bible.

I cannot prove that God exists, or that the Bible is His word, or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that the Holy Spirit dwells in my heart. I can say that I have read many things which seem to point in that direction, and I can say that I have experienced the hand of God in my life.

I am not perfect, I continue to disobey God on a daily basis. I do not deserve His grace or His mercy, yet He has showered me with it. I do not understand why there is suffering in the world, but I trust that the God who created us and loves us has a plan that I do not understand. I do not pretend to understand fully the mind of an infinite God with my created, finite mind.

Like Siren I see God in Creation. I do sense order and design. Like you I have questions, some of which I know will not be answered in this lifetime. If you want to know about God, ask Him, be real with Him, and seek His answer in the Bible. It may prove to be futile, but it may change your life.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 02:55 PM

I like your post very much, Pater. Believe it or not, I have tried. It proved futile. I'm glad you found him, though.

I was stoned one way or another since I was 7 years old. My faith lies in my family and friends. I hope I don't need god.

Paterfamilias

05-21-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by countchocula
I've read most of this thread, but I'm not sure how a religious discussion came to be. I make it a rule not to engage in theological debate with a devout Christian because I've been more productive while chatting with a paper cup. It's pointless of me to even post this and neither one of us will pull a sense of closure away from this conversation, but I've got nothing better to do. Parents of deformed children may be content, and they may be very grateful for their offspring, but in my experience (and yes, I'm opting to be vague), I find that the deformed child isn't content and that they aren't grateful for the cards that they've been dealt. That’s a generalization, but I have my resources. If God does indeed exist, he's selfish and egotistical. What do you say to someone who has tried to reach out to God only to have his/her desperate plea met with cold silence? What do you say to someone with a long history of unanswered prayers?

Personally, I've never had a "religious experience" and God has never "spoken" to me. He's never uttered a word in my direction and I've never felt his (I refuse to capitalize that word) presence. Sorry if this is coming off as muddled, but I have strong opinions concerning religion and I'm not skilled at expressing them.

Count -

You posted this while I was writing my last post, so I hadn't seen it.
Obvously we have had different experiences. I don't know your situation and so I can't speak to your specific needs. I don't know why your prayers have not been answered.

I will say generally that God does not always answer our prayers the way we would like Him to. So what would I say to someone with a long history of unanswered prayers? I would say don't give up. Keep seeking Him, keep talking to Him, seek others who are genuine in their faith and talk to them. Again let me make clear that this is a general response and not meant to be flippant or anything with regards to your personal needs or situation. I will say this as well. I will pray for you in a general way that God will answer you. If you would care to PM me and share more specifically, I will listen and respond, and pray more specifically.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 03:17 PM

A good friend of mine just sent me this e-mail, which sums my thoughts up better than I can...

See, the bible and koran and all that...to me they are like fairy tales that could easily be understood by man. Everything is homosapiencentric. The way they explain the universe is...everything revolves around man. Well, I believe there's a hell of a lot more to the universe than man. As I said, I have no doubt there's other living species in outer space, we can't even conceive how they think, how they function...we haven't been able to establish contact. Not yet anyway, science hasn't developed that much yet. We still have a long ways to go before we understand even a fraction of the universe. No-one even knows if we'll last long enough to understand it, my guess is we won't. At the current rate we're going we'll sufficate on our own shit like an overgrown bacteria colony.

But anyway, I'm willing to believe that there is more to the universe than a mere homosapien can conceive. We understand things in our way, but it's not necessarily the right way.

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 03:19 PM

i get the feeling thats a mutual good friend we have there greb ;)

although this person did spell suffocate wrong ;)

however, its a good point and it does make a change from me and old man greb going on and on while siren and pater frantically defend ;);)

Paterfamilias

05-21-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
A good friend of mine just sent me this e-mail, which sums my thoughts up better than I can...

See, the bible and koran and all that...to me they are like fairy tales that could easily be understood by man. Everything is homosapiencentric. The way they explain the universe is...everything revolves around man. Well, I believe there's a hell of a lot more to the universe than man. As I said, I have no doubt there's other living species in outer space, we can't even conceive how they think, how they function...we haven't been able to establish contact. Not yet anyway, science hasn't developed that much yet. We still have a long ways to go before we understand even a fraction of the universe. No-one even knows if we'll last long enough to understand it, my guess is we won't. At the current rate we're going we'll sufficate on our own shit like an overgrown bacteria colony.

But anyway, I'm willing to believe that there is more to the universe than a mere homosapien can conceive. We understand things in our way, but it's not necessarily the right way.

Any friend of Greb's is a friend of mine:)

I totally agree with that last paragraph. And I am open minded to life on other planets. The Bible is indeed written with homosapiens as the intended audience, but to me that doesn't mean it's not true. Perhaps created other beings in other places in the universe and has spoken to them in some completely different way.

For more on the whole "alien" thing, check out books by archeaologist Graham Hancock, or Zecharaiah Sitchin. Both give some pretty strong evidences that we are not alone and our history may not be exactly as we think.

QTR - If I've been "frantically defending", does that mean you have been frantically "attacking". ;) That's not how I would characterize this discussion. I think it has been surprisingly open and honest and more a sharing of views and beliefs (at least from my perspective).

I know you had the smileys so i assume your kidding, but I just want to err on the side of caution on this one. If you think I've been argumentative, ungracious, or disrespectful, please let me know. Thanks.

countchocula

05-21-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
I will say generally that God does not always answer our prayers the way we would like Him to. So what would I say to someone with a long history of unanswered prayers? I would say don't give up. Keep seeking Him, keep talking to Him, seek others who are genuine in their faith and talk to them. Again let me make clear that this is a general response and not meant to be flippant or anything with regards to your personal needs or situation. I will say this as well. I will pray for you in a general way that God will answer you. If you would care to PM me and share more specifically, I will listen and respond, and pray more specifically.

I appreciate the gesture. It could just be that I'm simply not trying hard enough. As I get older, I get more and more cynical and it becomes increasingly difficult to enlighten God with a candid request. I might take you up on that PM offer, but it seems that, in spite of prayer, God will only act on "His word" when he feels like it. I struggle at his convenience.

Greb & Quoth – Thanks for the kind words.

Assuming that he exists, who created God anyway? I hypothesize that he sprung forth from a big bang. :D

BakeTheMooCow

05-21-2003, 03:43 PM

The idea that the universe was created by chance or some random chemical reaction doesn't sit well with me. Where did these chemicals come from? If there was a "big bang" which involved a massive star increasing in density till it collapsed and expanded.. where did that star come from? Did it always exist? If you can believe that, why can't you believe GOD always existed?

According to me, there is no proof for GOD's existence and there is also no proof for GOD's non-existence. But I have faith that a GOD exists and no proof or evidence or statistic can alter that mindset. In fact I believe, like Kierkegaard, that it is impossible to rationalize and legitimize religion. So why bother? All I need is faith.

BadCoverVersion

05-21-2003, 03:44 PM

Possibly off-topic, but here we go...

I personally have major issues with God, Christianity, the Catholic Church et all. The Catholic church is awash with stories of pederasty, corruption and abuse...and frankly, fundamental Christians are some of the most judgemental, self-righteous characters I have ever had the misfortune to come into contact with.

The condemnation of homosexuals irks me a tad. The shitty "repentance clause" and the fact that this deity expects god-fearing folk to live their lives according to a set of (shall we say "outmoded") rules before rewarding them with disabled children, foul crimes against their person and other hilarious family tragedies.

A woman is Texas brutally murdered her own children just a few months back. Her defence? She was driven by the "voice of God".

See, what I'm trying to say (inarticulate though I may sound)...this RELIGION malarkey appears to be more trouble than it's worth...thus, I refuse to label and associate myself. Perhaps I'm an atheist (I'm not entirely sure)...I actually see myself as a bit of an agnostic!?

Anyway...does it TRULY matter? I might just wind up be stoking the fiery coals with Satan...but if that's what beckons after leading what I perceive to be a GOOD life...then so be it. God can shove his bloody good book where the sun don't shine...I'm a loving, stable, reasonably principled individual...and if he "chooses" to condemn me, that's HIS loss.

Now, sort of back on topic...

The fact that God is just sticking around to reward those who "find him" and punish ye non-believers...now that TRULY gets my goat.

Seriously, he's obviously not making fruitful use of his time...hanging about the pearly gates, jamming to Cliff Richard and whatnot.

Kids are being abused left, right and centre...raped, beaten, murdered, neglected...

We're talking about little people who don't yet possess the "skills" to protect themselves...and this "all seeing I" with super-dude powers is just playing spectator to all the despicable bullshit.

Why should I even believe that he exists?

I mean, lets be brutally candid folks...we'd all expect the big cheese to be a pretty good bloke.

Funny, he's never truly "demonstrated" his loving nature.

Give me one good reason why I should look up to this guy?

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 04:00 PM

BCV, did i ever tell you i loved you? ;)

great illustration of what i been trying to get over. way to go oh worshipper at the altar of cocker...
:D:D

countchocula

05-21-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
The idea that the universe was created by chance or some random chemical reaction doesn't sit well with me. Where did these chemicals come from? If there was a "big bang" which involved a massive star increasing in density till it collapsed and expanded.. where did that star come from? Did it always exist? If you can believe that, why can't you believe GOD always existed?

The "big bang" theory is no more farfetched than some intangible deity clapping his hands and drumming up an entire universe out of thin air. I don't know how the cosmos materialized; one of the reasons being, I wasn't there. It will take more than a well-renowned book to convince me.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 04:03 PM

Well, I summed up by beliefs but some of you have still taken them and skewed them around.

Such as you , Grebdron when you said tht I somehow implied that I am alright because I'm a christian.

I never made such a claim. Never. I actually said SEVERAL times that I am not sure of my salvation and I don't think anyone is. No one can judge whether a man is worthy of everlasting life except for God. So saying that Christians think the rest of the world doesnt matter because they are saved, at least in my opinion, is dead wrong. I definitely don't think that. And I have no basis for saying that people who don't believe at all will not survive. Only God can read hearts.

Quoth, you think it's selfish to be hopeful? To want life to be peaceful? To be happy that things are approaching a pinnacle point in bible prophecy? I'm sorry you feel tht way. Do you think that because I feel that way I have stopped living a normal life or tried to promote good in the community? On the contrary. It makes me want to do more. So how can that be bad?

What you call 'frantically' defending my faith is actually expressing my certainty in what I believe. Just because there are more nonbelievers on this board than believers does not make my comments 'frantic' by any means. I don't care whether you believe in God. If you'll notice I never bring up religious conversations and when I join it's simply to explain the reason I have faith. I mean, Pater and I are the minority here right?

My study of the bible shows how loving God actually is. The fact that there is suffering and wickedness in this world by no means negates that. From my study of the bible I've learned that the horrible things that are happening are a result of Satan, not God. God allows it to continue for a short time to test mankind and see who truly worships him w/ a sincere motive. What may seem like 'an eternity of suffering' to us is actually only a moment to him. The bible even says a year is as 'one day' w/ God. If you count up the years since science says man walked the earth, that's no that many days in God's eyes. The fact that he gave us the bible to help us deal w/ the stress of this life is the largest proof of His love and I try to live by it daily. 2 Pet 3:9-'Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise as some would consider slowness but he is patient w/ you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance'

So believe what you want. But there is nothing being said here that I haven't heard before and it doesnt change how I feel one iota. Think God is merciless in cruel if you want but I will never see it that way. Oh yeah, and that's because I choose to believe that the bible is the word of God. Nothing tells me otherwise and without it there is nothing. Anyway, I feel my life has been blessed by putting God first. That's all I can say about that.

Whew!:D

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by countchocula
I appreciate the gesture. It could just be that I'm simply not trying hard enough. As I get older, I get more and more cynical and it becomes increasingly difficult to enlighten God with a candid request. I might take you up on that PM offer, but it seems that, in spite of prayer, God will only act on "His word" when he feels like it. I struggle at his convenience.

Greb & Quoth – Thanks for the kind words.

Assuming that he exists, who created God anyway? I hypothesize that he sprung forth from a big bang. :D

No one created God. He has always existed and always will. Wrap your imperfect mind around that if you can. :D

countchocula

05-21-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
He has always existed and always will.

I don't see how anything can always exist. There's a starting point. You should be able to trace it back to a genesis. This is what you say in regards to the universe, so how does God get away scot-free? If a deity can always exist, then so can a universe.

The Postmaster General

05-21-2003, 04:16 PM

Okay, it's like this.

Say you have 10 kittens.

At first they require lots of attention. You have to be there for them often, and point stuff out to them so they don't get hurt.

As they get older you start setting down house rules for them, and start giving them freedom.

"Don't piss on the floor."

Well, some of them do and some of them don't.

Pretty soon, your house smells like cat piss so badly that you get kicked out by the landlord.

Okay, which cats are going with you?

Sorry for getting off topic with my personal problem. I just don't want to give up Morris, Dr. Teeth, Jessie Duke, or Tommy The Cat. If any of you know of a loving home for these 4 cats where they can be outdoors. Please write me at 1catlvr2thenxt@bubbastrangelove.org

So back to more God Talk -

People are very scared of spiders. There is really no reason to be. Spiders didn't do anything to them. They just have faith that spiders are bad. Do I slight them for that? No.

The difference I'm hearing is that religion is bad because it has in so many ways interupted the lives of those who aren't choosing to partake. So perhaps there is a reason to slight religion.

I wouldn't say so. We are still dealing with things on a person to person basis. Can I hold Siren in the same regard as I can with the pastor who raped 40 underage boys. I hope not.

So why start changes from the outside? This is just another attempt that goes along the same lines as freedom of choice laws. As a devout Bubba, I cannot on one hand say that the Christian Fundamentalists should stay out of the abortion issue, then on the other say that they should be discouraged from doing what they want to do.

The problem is the proverbial "fat greedy old fucks" who know the system without knowing why they got involved with the system. They know the system too well, and are without leadership, because they abandoned God as soon as they committed crimes for their own gain.

This is why I'd rather just see legislation passed to heavily monitor these places, and we should also think about how they are taxed.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by countchocula
I don't see how anything can always exist. There's a starting point. You should be able to trace it back to a genesis. This is what you say in regards to the universe, so how does God get away scot-free? If a deity can always exist, then so can a universe.

Well, it's not important that we understand that. We're humans. What we need to know about creation is in the bible. If we needed to know about what was around before then he would have told us. Of course you don't see it. I can't comprehend it. That's what makes it awesome, to me.:cool:

BadCoverVersion

05-21-2003, 04:27 PM

Well put Senor Strangelove.

Some valid points.

PS: Dr. Teeth sounds fly...'tis a shame Engelbert (my badger) doesn't appear to agree with me.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 04:32 PM

I know! I bet Vernon and Gladice Presley (my beagles) would love to chase a cat....:p

Paterfamilias

05-21-2003, 04:39 PM

BCV, I appreciate your honesty. You raise some very good questions/points. I think it's important for all of us to come to terms with how we relate to God. It seems like you have done that. I want to share my thoughts to some of the issues you raise.

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
Possibly off-topic, but here we go...

I personally have major issues with God, Christianity, the Catholic Church et all. The Catholic church is awash with stories of pederasty, corruption and abuse...and frankly, fundamental Christians are some of the most judgemental, self-righteous characters I have ever had the misfortune to come into contact with.

I agree with you here. There are many who are judgemental, self-righteous A-holes. This is a distortion of the teachings of Jesus, plain and simple. The fact that people have distorted the message reveals more about people than it does about God or the Bible to me.

The condemnation of homosexuals irks me a tad.

Me too! The Bible clearly speaks against sexual immorality, but WE are not to condemn anyone. Only God knows what is in someone's heart, and only God is to judge sin. All sin is despicable to God. I believe we all stand before God equally as "sinners", people who have disobeyed God and deserve judgement. Those who condemn others for their sins are forgetting that they are in the same boat.

The shitty "repentance clause" and the fact that this deity expects god-fearing folk to live their lives according to a set of (shall we say "outmoded") rules before rewarding them with disabled children, foul crimes against their person and other hilarious family tragedies.

I'm not sure what you mean by shitty repentace clause, could you elaborate?

A woman is Texas brutally murdered her own children just a few months back. Her defence? She was driven by the "voice of God".
That is F'd up, no doubt about it.

See, what I'm trying to say (inarticulate though I may sound)...this RELIGION malarkey appears to be more trouble than it's worth...thus, I refuse to label and associate myself. Perhaps I'm an atheist (I'm not entirely sure)...I actually see myself as a bit of an agnostic!?

Anyway...does it TRULY matter? I might just wind up be stoking the fiery coals with Satan...but if that's what beckons after leading what I perceive to be a GOOD life...then so be it. God can shove his bloody good book where the sun don't shine...I'm a loving, stable, reasonably principled individual...and if he "chooses" to condemn me, that's HIS loss.

From my point of view, I believe that none of us are truly "good" enough to be in God's presence. God is holy. We are tainted by sin. The Bible says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and "there are none who are righteous, not even one.". But the story doesn't end there. Jesus Christ paid the penalty that we all deserve by dying, suffering, and being ressurrected that "whoever believes in Him, might have eternal life"

Now, sort of back on topic...

The fact that God is just sticking around to reward those who "find him" and punish ye non-believers...now that TRULY gets my goat.

Seriously, he's obviously not making fruitful use of his time...hanging about the pearly gates, jamming to Cliff Richard and whatnot.

Kids are being abused left, right and centre...raped, beaten, murdered, neglected...

We're talking about little people who don't yet possess the "skills" to protect themselves...and this "all seeing I" with super-dude powers is just playing spectator to all the despicable bullshit.

Why should I even believe that he exists?

I mean, lets be brutally candid folks...we'd all expect the big cheese to be a pretty good bloke.

I think we want to try to understand God in human terms (at least I do) and I think that is a mistake. I have no idea why God acts the way he does, I don't know why He created us in the first place. I can see why these things would cause you to be angry with God and to question God, and I think that's good. Keep asking questions, keep seeking answers.

Funny, he's never truly "demonstrated" his loving nature.

Give me one good reason why I should look up to this guy?
I think He demonstrated His love by sending His Son to die on our behalf. As far as a reason to "look up to Him", I suggest reading through the Psalms. There are wonderful poems describing and worshipping the many aspects of God as creator, redeemer, sustainer, and refuge.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 04:50 PM

That was beautifully put.

It's good that the two christians on the board agree, Pater. Can you imagine what a mess it would be we didnt?:D

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
Me too! The Bible clearly speaks against sexual immorality

But Pater, why is homosexuality immoral? Didn't god create homosexuals? He created everything. In his image, no less.

Or do homosexuals CHOOSE to be that way, for some deviant sexual thrills? I know MANY gay people, and not one of them would choose that life, for it's not an easy one.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 04:55 PM

Ooooo. Touchy subject. I'll let Pater answer that since it was him you asked.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Well, I summed up by beliefs but some of you have still taken them and skewed them around.

Such as you , Grebdron when you said tht I somehow implied that I am alright because I'm a christian.

I didn't attribute those words to you, Siren. That was a generic statement.

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
Possibly off-topic, but here we go...

Is there still a topic, love?:D:D:D

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Ooooo. Touchy subject. I'll let Pater answer that since it was him you asked.

Take a shot, Siren. We're all involved.

electriclite

05-21-2003, 04:58 PM

I think we want to try to understand God in human terms (at least I do) and I think that is a mistake. I have no idea why God acts the way he does, I don't know why He created us in the first place.

Yeah, it's impossible for people to even wrap their minds around the term "infinitely" itself. I mean, sure you get an idea of it, but when you really try to fathom the idea of an entity that has no birth or death but has just existed it boggles your mind. So then how can you begin to try and understand how and why it behaves a certain way?

I went to Catholic school for 6 years (too long)and all I chose to take from it were these simple words : God loves everyone.

I didn't buy that "God hates gays" and "unwed mothers" and other crap like that when I was a kid and I still don't now. Chalk it up to my stubborn nature I guess.

BCV, that lady in Texas was just plain fucking nuts. If she didn't believe in God or know of the existence of God she could have easily said "My plant told me to do it." or used Son of Sam's excuse "My dog told me to do it."

I have my own personal way of believing in God. Its my system and I don't expect anyone to understand or accept it and I have no intention of foisting it on anyone. But anyway it makes me happy and helps me sleep at night, as I'm sure your beliefs do. I'm not a good little Christian so I'm not out to convert or change anyone's minds, just be good people and you're ok in my book.

Whether you believe in a god or not doesn't matter to me, all I know is a lot you here seem like good people and I wish you all a happy and long life and that you never grow to be assholes;)

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by electriclite
Whether you believe in a god or not doesn't matter to me, all I know is a lot you here seem like good people and I wish you all a happy and long life and that you never grow to be assholes;)

Or may we (I) grow OUT of being an asshole.;)

countchocula

05-21-2003, 05:13 PM

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:16 PM

Wonderful comments, Electriclite. I have alot of respect for that post. Gosh, I hope no one believes I'm doing any 'foisting':eek: I have such a hard time not answering questions that are presented to me.

So anyway Grebdron, here goes...and you probably already know what I'm going to say.

The bible does condemn homosexuality as an unnatural sexual appetite. I completely understand your point that it isnt an easy life and it's true that the further man gets from perfection, the more inborn unnatural traits may be. I believe some people are born this way. My cousin was born an w/ tendancy toward being an alcoholic. It's certainly not natural to be an alcoholic but there it is.

The bible is very clear that some followers of Christ 'were' homosexuals. It also is clear that they put off these practices because they were displeasing to God. Does that mean they no longer had a tendancy towards males? Of course not. But it means they did not act on these tendencies. That's the biblical answer and I know it will make you steam since you don't want to believe in the bible. Sorry. :cool:

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Wonderful comments, Electriclite. I have alot of respect for that post. Gosh, I hope no one believes I'm doing any 'foisting':eek: I have such a hard time not answering questions that are presented to me.

So anyway Grebdron, here goes...and you probably already know what I'm going to say.

The bible does condemn homosexuality as an unnatural sexual appetite. I completely understand your point that it isnt an easy life and it's true that the further man gets from perfection, the more inborn unnatural traits may be. I believe some people are born this way. My cousin was born an w/ tendancy toward being an alcoholic. It's certainly not natural to be an alcoholic but there it is.

The bible is very clear that some followers of Christ 'were' homosexuals. It also is clear that they put off these practices because they were displeasing to God. Does that mean they no longer had a tendancy towards males? Of course not. But it means they did not act on these tendencies. That's the biblical answer and I know it will make you steam since you don't want to believe in the bible. Sorry. :cool:

You're not foisting, Siren. Or to put it better, if you are, it's in vain.

So god created homosexuals, only to urge them not to act on those "tendencies?" For it was displeasing to him. That's a tad unfair then. Maybe it is all a game for him.

Must be fun to click on the "Earth Channel" and watch all of us ruin ourselves.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
You're not foisting, Siren. Or to put it better, if you are, it's in vain.

So god created homosexuals, only to urge them not to act on those "tendencies?" For it was displeasing to him. That's a tad unfair then. Maybe it is all a game for him.

Must be fun to click on the "Earth Channel" and watch all of us ruin ourselves.

????? Did I say God created homosexuals? I don't think I did. The first mentions of homosexuals in the bible is in Sodom, long after the creation of man. Imperfect man began to develop the unnatural desires after Adam and Eve sinned and were 'booted' out of the Garden of Eden.

You seem to be very negative. Do you need a yoohoo?

:cool:

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 05:25 PM

You didn't say that. But I am led to believe that god created everything. Which would seem to include sin, homosexuality, rape, violence, etc.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:29 PM

Led to believe? Whatever...you know you aren't led to believe a thing I'm saying.:D

Nope, that was the other guy. God created man and the earth. When Adam and Eve sinned it was because the devil took liberties trying to turn man against God. To make man think they could run things successfully without him. Chaos ensued.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 05:30 PM

But Satan is god's creation, is he not?

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:32 PM

Yes and No. Satan was an angel in the beginning but he made up his own mind to go against God and attempt to turn his creation against him as well. He did according to his own will instead of Gods and God allowed it. His sovereignty was in question and the only way to prove his right to rule was to turn the devil loose on the earth and see who remained faithful.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 05:38 PM

But God doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. And how would Satan, the angel, have had any of these thoughts had God not created the thoughts? See, this world could truly be a paradise, if god wanted it that way. He MUST enjoy all the bad things. None of them need exist.

P.S. I of course don't think homosexuality is a bad thing.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:45 PM

No he doesnt have to prove it but he chooses to because it's the loving thing to do. He could dictate...this is the way man will act and I will make them automatons w/ no freedom of choice since obviously they can't make the right choices. Come on. Where's the glory in that? He gave man and the angels freedom of choice.

Satan chose to do what he knew was wrong. He will be punished but in the meantime, the world is in his hands. And yes the world will be a paradise. Like I said before, our standards of time are so different then his. It's in our nature to want things NOW. It grieves him to see the situation the world is in but as the scripture I quoted above says, he is not slow. He is patient.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 05:48 PM

Or he's enjoying himself. That's all I can get out of it. He made time this way for us, and knows that people are suffering...in real time.

He can be patient, while innocent souls suffer?

TATU

05-21-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
????? Did I say God created homosexuals? I don't think I did. The first mentions of homosexuals in the bible is in Sodom, long after the creation of man. Imperfect man began to develop the unnatural desires after Adam and Eve sinned and were 'booted' out of the Garden of Eden.

You seem to be very negative. Do you need a yoohoo?

:cool:
I wouldn't mind a yoohoo.

Reigh Kaufman

05-21-2003, 05:53 PM

To pitch in and really stir up a bit shit (but these are only MY opinions), I do believe in God...and he is as fallible as anyone else. It's right there in the scriptures, which anyone can quote out of context to make their point accepted. Man was created in God's image? Well, man is ONE of the greatest fuck-ups on this great planet. And so is my God. But man is also the greatest thing on this planet, and capable of the most sublime acts of truth and beauty. And so is my God. You say he doesn't exist? How can he exist when there is x amount of this and x amount of that? I say, stop whining and take some responsibility for yourselves...My God is infinite but not perfect...He can only do so much. The rest is up to us.

Oh, and the concept of the Garden of Eden? A Utopian society? In my version, we are already there....or at least we are currently working on our right to be there...and Earth either will or will not become Heaven or Hell. If it is Heaven, well, my theory is that mankind is constantly devising ways to improve life here on Earth (curing diseases at an incredible rate, inventing amazing things, mapping the genome) and one day the society may be free of all the things we are talking about here (sick children, etc). If it is Hell, well, other people are helping that along , too. I don't think God is the perfect divine being some of you imagine him to be. Rather I see him as an entity working around the clock, trying to figure what goes where so that he can make sure his Creation BECOMES perfect...

Thank you for listening.

BakeTheMooCow

05-21-2003, 05:55 PM

He gave man and the angels freedom of choiceAlthough I believe in GOD, this aspect always irks me. How can GOD be all-knowing (as defined by Christianity) and give us freedom of choice at the same time.

Suppose I am pointing a gun at another man's head with my finger on the trigger. If GOD is omniscient or all-knowing, he knows whether I will pull the trigger or not. So then do I have a choice of what I am going to do? According to religion, GOD gave me free will; the ability to choose my own actions. But this scenario contradicts that. If GOD KNOWS that I'm going to pull the trigger, I cannot NOT pull the trigger. So I'm not free to choose. Therefore the idea of a GOD that knows everything yet gives us the freedom of choice, is paradoxical.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Or he's enjoying himself. That's all I can get out of it. He made time this way for us, and knows that people are suffering...in real time.

He can be patient, while innocent souls suffer?

You seem to think that the God of the bible is just another guy...a guy who 'gets off' on mayhem and destruction. He isnt a man. He is a much higher entity and no, he doesnt like to see innocent people suffer. But if his patience means that more people can be saved, then how is that not loving? Remember he also has the power to ressurect so even though people may suffer in this short life, they can be ressurected to a perfect life after Armageddon. A life without end. But once again, that's if you choose to believe what the bible says. Christ suffered too and that must have been the hardest thing for him to watch of all. But it happened and Christ made a way out for all imperfect man.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
Although I believe in GOD, this aspect always irks me. How can GOD be all-knowing (as defined by Christianity) and give us freedom of choice at the same time.

Suppose I am pointing a gun at another man's head with my finger on the trigger. If GOD is omniscient or all-knowing, he knows whether I will pull the trigger or not. So then do I have a choice of what I am going to do? According to religion, GOD gave me free will; the ability to choose my own actions. But this scenario contradicts that. If GOD KNOWS that I'm going to pull the trigger, I cannot NOT pull the trigger. So I'm not free to choose. Therefore the idea of a GOD that knows everything yet gives us the freedom of choice, is paradoxical.

You don't think that if god is omniscient, he could also choose NOT to know if you will pull the trigger?:D

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
To pitch in and really stir up a bit shit (but these are only MY opinions), I do believe in God...and he is as fallible as anyone else. It's right there in the scriptures, which anyone can quote out of context to make their point accepted. Man was created in God's image? Well, man is ONE of the greatest fuck-ups on this great planet. And so is my God. But man is also the greatest thing on this planet, and capable of the most sublime acts of truth and beauty. And so is my God. You say he doesn't exist? How can he exist when there is x amount of this and x amount of that? I say, stop whining and take some responsibility for yourselves...My God is infinite but not perfect...He can only do so much. The rest is up to us.

Oh, and the concept of the Garden of Eden? A Utopian society? In my version, we are already there....or at least we are currently working on our right to be there...and Earth either will or will not become Heaven or Hell. If it is Heaven, well, my theory is that mankind is constantly devising ways to improve life here on Earth (curing diseases at an incredible rate, inventing amazing things, mapping the genome) and one day the society may be free of all the things we are talking about here (sick children, etc). If it is Hell, well, other people are helping that along , too. I don't think God is the perfect divine being some of you imagine him to be. Rather I see him as an entity working around the clock, trying to figure what goes where so that he can make sure his Creation BECOMES perfect...

Thank you for listening.

That was very profound. And it also shows that you do have faith which is very hard to come by....so cheers!:D

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 06:00 PM

[He is a much higher entity and no, he doesnt like to see innocent people suffer

then lets some action , lets see a little of the saving going on.anyway, you claim he is a higher being and then claim to know what he likes and doesnt...now that i can not buy. if he does exist, how can you know what he thinks?

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 06:06 PM

I know because it's in the bible. It makes it very clear what Jehovah approves of and doesnt. If he didnt want us to know, then we wouldnt know. :p

Reigh Kaufman

05-21-2003, 06:07 PM

Anyone want to here my opinions on whether or not the Loch Ness monster exists? Believe me, that shit will bloooooooow your mind.:p

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
I know because it's in the bible. It makes it very clear what Jehovah approves of and doesnt. If he didnt want us to know, then we wouldnt know. :p

i dont buy that, because you have yet to prove to me that the bible is anything more than a beautifully written myth...

i am sorry siren, but if you were being tried in a court on this (for example) you would be in pretty deep poo to be honest. all the points you raise are perfectly valid for someone with your faith, you just dont seem to be able to support it with anything other than the bible (see above) and what you believe. beliefs that you dont have much in the way of tangiable and substantial evidence to support.tand thats the problem. there is far more evidence scientifically to back up myself and grebs point of view on this. creation, the order of the universe and so on and so forth.

i will only admit you are right when you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and i think because of the very nature of religion and your beliefs, that is going to be very difficult for you to do

ouch...that sounded really harsh

ps- i am really enjoying this debate. its good to stretch the old mental legs a little ;)

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
You say he doesn't exist? How can he exist when there is x amount of this and x amount of that? I say, stop whining and take some responsibility for yourselves...My God is infinite but not perfect...He can only do so much. The rest is up to us.

See, I believe 100% in personal responsibility. I don't chalk anything up to God's will.

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
Anyone want to here my opinions on whether or not the Loch Ness monster exists? Believe me, that shit will bloooooooow your mind.:p

go on reigh, i am interested...a little anyway...:D

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
Anyone want to here my opinions on whether or not the Loch Ness monster exists? Believe me, that shit will bloooooooow your mind.:p

When I want your opinions, I'll give them to you.

Reigh Kaufman

05-21-2003, 06:13 PM

It's two guys in frog suits holding three goodyear tyres.

electriclite

05-21-2003, 06:13 PM

Speaking of blowing, Reigh how's Greb?

I kid, I kid!

But back to blowing MINDS.

Have you ever read the book Sophie's World. It's about a little girl who is taught the history of philosophy through corespondence. Anyway, it offers these really interesting perspectives on the importance of Jesus Christ and info on the world he lived in at that time. There is also a small paragraph that talks about God's "feminine" side. It's real "knock-you-on-your-ass" type stuff I think you'd like.

quoth_the_raven

05-21-2003, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
It's two guys in frog suits holding three goodyear tyres.

i see

are you one of the two guys??

BakeTheMooCow

05-21-2003, 06:18 PM

Why is anyone here trying to explain their faith? That's not even possible.

Reigh Kaufman

05-21-2003, 06:19 PM

Any other religious devotees from different faiths have any views on this...? We are all speaking about a Christian idea of God and yet that is not the main faith of our planet. Anyone else going to pitch in? I'm looking to hear your thoughts...

Or I'll just read them like I always do.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
i dont buy that, because you have yet to prove to me that the bible is anything more than a beautifully written myth...

i am sorry siren, but if you were being tried in a court on this (for example) you would be in pretty deep poo to be honest. all the points you raise are perfectly valid for someone with your faith, you just dont seem to be able to support it with anything other than the bible (see above) and what you believe. beliefs that you dont have much in the way of tangiable and substantial evidence to support.tand thats the problem. there is far more evidence scientifically to back up myself and grebs point of view on this. creation, the order of the universe and so on and so forth.

i will only admit you are right when you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and i think because of the very nature of religion and your beliefs, that is going to be very difficult for you to do

ouch...that sounded really harsh

ps- i am really enjoying this debate. its good to stretch the old mental legs a little ;)

Ever read Inherit the Wind?
Really though, there will never be a time that someone w/ faith in the bible will be put on trial because that would just be immoral. :D You are not a person who cares anything about faith obviously or you couldnt say anything about 'proving it'. You only believe in what you can see and that's fine with me. You aren't living my life so you can't see the blessings I've received. I have absolutely no fears for my future and I don't expect you to understand why. Science's view of the origin of the species just doesnt mesh w/ me. How do you account for the earth's distance from the sun, the construction of a human cell, the fact that only man is born w/ a conscience, that for no apparent reason whatsoever man gets old and dies? There is no explanation scientifically for those things exept for 'evolution'. The bible just makes alot more sense to me. And no one has yet been able to disprove it while I see many holes in the evolution theory.

See, you guys keep asking me questions knowing that I'm going to base my answers on faith and the bible because that's my belief. But then you negate my responses immediately. Why can't you admit that there is a possiblity that I'm right? Faith prevents me from saying the same thing but since ya'll don't have faith anyway, what would it hurt?;)

Reigh Kaufman

05-21-2003, 06:37 PM

I'm so sorry for this, Siren, cos you are a cool chick and all, but...

By all means your faith is probably the best thing about you but it is my opinion that the bible is the root cause of all this confusion. It's read by many as if it were an instruction manual, which it is of sorts. But it is not the word of God. It's the word osf spiritual instructors and they could never agree what to keep in and keep out. Hence the contradictory aspects of the text. Too many cooks and all that. In amongst all that is a very good way to live one's life, but don't adhere to it too seriously. Love YOUR God (I can't stress enough that everyone has their own God, IMO) and use your faith YOUR way. If your faith is from that book, can't knock ya. But if it's the source of ALL your faith, then that is why I said I was sorry in the first place.

I think it is just a good starting point and nothing more. A template. But it was written by teachers with only a sense of a time and place that was always going to change (such as the 'don't do this, do that' laws of the time...now these things are acceptable because we are a more permissive society...NOT a more immoral society. By then, ogf course, we changed that book and called it GOSPEL. Meaning we then had no choice but to take it as read that every word was the truth...It's not (IMO), but there are worse places to seek meaning in life. That's about the nicest way i have of saying that the bible is a bit misleading.

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Ever read Inherit the Wind?
Reall though, there will never be a time that someone w/ faith in the bible will be put on trial because that would just be immoral. :D You are not a person who cares anything about faith. You only believe in what you can see and that's fine with me. You aren't living my life so you can't see the blessings I've received. I have absolutely no fears for my future and I don't expect you to understand why. Science's view of the origin of the species just doesnt mesh w/ me. How do you account for the earth's distance from the sun, the construction of a human cell, the fact that only man is born w/ a conscience, that for no apparent reason whatsoever man gets old and dies. There is no explanation scientifically for those things exept for 'evolution'. The bible just makes alot more sense to me. And no one has yet been able to disprove it while I see many holes in the evolution theory.

See, you guys keep asking me questions knowing that I'm going to base my answers on faith and the bible because that's my belief. But then you negate my responses immediately. Why can't you admit that there is a possiblity that I'm right? Faith prevents me from saying the same thing but since ya'll don't have faith anyway, what would it hurt?;)

Couple things, Siren. Almost all of us have said we aren't SURE about the existence of god. I don't deny his existence, I don't know. I DO know that I probably wouldn't hang around with him.

Man is the only animal born with a conscience? Have you ever seen a dog when he knows he's done something wrong? Or apes and gorillas. They're pretty emotional. And trained ones know right from wrong.

Of course, I believe we're not so different from apes.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Reigh Kaufman
I'm so sorry for this, Siren, cos you are a cool chick and all, but...

By all means your faith is probably the best thing about you but it is my opinion that the bible is the root cause of all this confusion. It's read by many as if it were an instruction manual, which it is of sorts. But it is not the word of God. It's the word osf spiritual instructors and they could never agree what to keep in and keep out. Hence the contradictory aspects of the text. Too many cooks and all that. In amongst all that is a very good way to live one's life, but don't adhere to it too seriously. Love YOUR God (I can't stress enough that everyone has their own God, IMO) and use your faith YOUR way. If your faith is from that book, can't knock ya. But if it's the source of ALL your faith, then that is why I said I was sorry in the first place.

I think it is just a good starting point and nothing more. A template. But it was written by teachers with only a sense of a time and place that was always going to change (such as the 'don't do this, do that' laws of the time...now these things are acceptable because we are a more permissive society...NOT a more immoral society. By then, ogf course, we changed that book and called it GOSPEL. Meaning we then had no choice but to take it as read that every word was the truth...It's not (IMO), but there are worse places to seek meaning in life. That's about the nicest way i have of saying that the bible is a bit misleading.

Dont be sorry man. Your opinion is duly noted and I appreciate your concern. But I have no qualms w/ using the bible as the basis for my faith and I am very happy because of it. It surely can't hurt none to follow it, that's for sure.;)

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 06:46 PM

It can hurt gay people when zealots use the scriptures to justify hurting them.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Couple things, Siren. Almost all of us have said we aren't SURE about the existence of god. I don't deny his existence, I don't know. I DO know that I probably wouldn't hang around with him.

Man is the only animal born with a conscience? Have you ever seen a dog when he knows he's done something wrong? Or apes and gorillas. They're pretty emotional. And trained ones know right from wrong.

Of course, I believe we're not so different from apes.

Science wouldnt agree about the conscience thing Greb. At least not anything Ive read. Dogs only act that way if they've been in the presence of man. Ever see a pack of wild dogs? And the key word in the ape comment is 'trained'... by man of course. :)

I'm out of here for the night. It's been fun. :cool:

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
It can hurt gay people when zealots use the scriptures to justify hurting them.

And if they're 'zealots' they won't hurt them will they? Because they'll know it's not man's place to judge. Righto....

Grebdron

05-21-2003, 06:58 PM

So there aren't violent zealots? Who's blowing up the abortion clinics in the name of god?

BadCoverVersion

05-21-2003, 07:29 PM

Siren,

I do respect your beliefs...but like Kaufman I feel living BY the good book can have it's pitfall's. Surely faith is not about following some didactic code...living your life according to a set of archaic regulations courtesy of the JC fan club?

Originally posted by SIREN30
The bible does condemn homosexuality as an unnatural sexual appetite. I completely understand your point that it isnt an easy life and it's true that the further man gets from perfection, the more inborn unnatural traits may be. I believe some people are born this way. My cousin was born an w/ tendancy toward being an alcoholic. It's certainly not natural to be an alcoholic but there it is.

So homosexuality is "unnatural"...!? You would equate feeling true love for a person of the same sex with an affiliation for the good stuff?

The bible is very clear that some followers of Christ 'were' homosexuals. It also is clear that they put off these practices because they were displeasing to God. Does that mean they no longer had a tendancy towards males? Of course not. But it means they did not act on these tendencies. That's the biblical answer and I know it will make you steam since you don't want to believe in the bible. Sorry. :cool:

The big man sure is demanding...and positively self-centred if truth be told. Why should a person of same-sex orientation sacrifice love, the most wonderful emotion of all, in order to please a dude who rejects their being and doesn't even have the decency to show at parties!?

Don't get me wrong Siren...I am not attempting to disparage everything you hold dear, namely your faith and your love for God. I am merely curious as to your thoughts on the subject...:)

BadCoverVersion

05-21-2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
So there aren't violent zealots? Who's blowing up the abortion clinics in the name of god?

I'll quote my own PERSONAL God...Mr Bill Hicks.

You know who's really bugging me these days. These pro-lifers...You ever look at their faces? "I'm pro-life!", "I'm pro-life!" Boy, they look it don't they? They just exude joie de vivre. You just want to hang with them and play Trivial Pursuit all night long. You know what bugs me about them? If you're so pro-life, do me a favour - don't lock arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries. Let's see how committed you are to this idea. "She can't come in!", "She was 98. She was hit by a bus!"..."There's options!" What else can we do? Have her stuffed? I want to see pro-lifers with crowbars at funerals opening caskets - "get out!" Then I'd be really impressed by their mission.

Y'know, abortion completely diviided America, unbelievebly divisive, I've never seen anything like it. Even my friends, all very intelligent, totally divided on abortion. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are annoying idiots...Other of my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks. How are we gonna come to a consensus? I mean I'm torn. I think of them as evil annoying idiot fucks, but y'know I ehhhh I take the broad view y'know.

Tom Samborski

05-21-2003, 08:30 PM

This thread, like so many others, has gotten off topic. What once was a simple rant about about us not finishing arguments in a civilized way, has turned into a topic about homosexuals, god, and abortion clinics!

BadCoverVersion

05-21-2003, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Tom Samborski
This thread, like so many others, has gotten off topic. What once was a simple rant about about us not finishing arguments in a civilized way, has turned into a topic about homosexuals, god, and abortion clinics!

That may be...but it HAS remained civilised.

electriclite

05-21-2003, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
That may be...but it HAS remained civilised.

Amen:D

And I see your Hicks and raise you my Carlin:

"Ever notice that these anti-abortionists look like people you never want to fuck in the first place?":cool:

Corpse Candle

05-21-2003, 09:36 PM

At the risk of bieng ignored for not actuely being a heavy wieght schmoes I am pleased to be in the same location of many of you schmoes due to the fact that I have read many eloqent and intelligent posts.
Personaly I find scince fails it's disciples with arrogence and brutality.
What do I mean...well look at medical development in England in the 19th century opium was the arch-angel of doctors surgerys in every dark corner of the country.
The doctors of that time had no idea of the dangers of such a god of drug all that they knew was that it banished pain that was unrivaled by any other present treatment.
However in the coming years millions feel to the grip of opium London itself became rife with an addiction legacy.
You will find many of the classical English writers were sickend with the spectre of Opium.
What has to do with religion well if you think religion is merciles barabric and cyinical then scince the new religion is cruel by it's nature.
The progression of scince is a catalouge of pain that led to cures or treatments i.e Eltectro threapy of the mentaly ill that was found to be torturous and led to incresed use of physcothreapy.
I find science to be just as faceless and cold as any GOD could be and with almost as little to show in realtion to the explaination to how and why life exsisted.

I think at this stage of humanity our minds are not advanced or wrothy to understand the how,why,when of creation.
Let me put it this way if my theory is correct and human minds are just unable to comperhend how things came to be then the answer could be staring us right in the face and we will never ever know.

I am unsure about both religion and science as both in my eyes leave more questions than answers.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
So there aren't violent zealots? Who's blowing up the abortion clinics in the name of god?

Those who truly have a zeal for God's word wouldnt take it and skew it to their wishes by judging anyone. That was what I meant. Those people are twisted. They are breaking one law by their zeal for another??? That schtick makes no sense to me.

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
Siren,

I do respect your beliefs...but like Kaufman I feel living BY the good book can have it's pitfall's. Surely faith is not about following some didactic code...living your life according to a set of archaic regulations courtesy of the JC fan club?

So homosexuality is "unnatural"...!? You would equate feeling true love for a person of the same sex with an affiliation for the good stuff?

The big man sure is demanding...and positively self-centred if truth be told. Why should a person of same-sex orientation sacrifice love, the most wonderful emotion of all, in order to please a dude who rejects their being and doesn't even have the decency to show at parties!?

Don't get me wrong Siren...I am not attempting to disparage everything you hold dear, namely your faith and your love for God. I am merely curious as to your thoughts on the subject...:)

Well, everything that is good and true is highlighted and encouraged in the bible. There is really no code that I am aware of so I fail to see the pitfalls. The theme of the bible outside of the vindication of God's kingdom, is to love your neighbor and God. So showing love all the time to best of your ability could hardly have a negative side, could it?:confused:

Well, if the original purpose of sexual relations is to populate the earth then homosexuality really couldnt be natural could it? Can't you see what I'm saying? God doesnt reject people who have homosexual tendencies. But it's very likely that this is their 'thorn in the flesh', so to speak. It's their 'tribulation' to have to fight against acting on those tendencies. Pitiful but true.

BadCoverVersion, I would never want to offend you with any of my responses since i can tell you are a very genuine person. But, you ask me to be truthful and there it is. I'm glad you are curious about my thoughts and if you wish, keep asking away. :)

SIREN30

05-21-2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Corpse Candle
At the risk of bieng ignored for not actuely being a heavy wieght schmoes I am pleased to be in the same location of many of you schmoes due to the fact that I have read many eloqent and intelligent posts.
Personaly I find scince fails it's disciples with arrogence and brutality.
What do I mean...well look at medical development in England in the 19th century opium was the arch-angel of doctors surgerys in every dark corner of the country.
The doctors of that time had no idea of the dangers of such a god of drug all that they knew was that it banished pain that was unrivaled by any other present treatment.
However in the coming years millions feel to the grip of opium London itself became rife with an addiction legacy.
You will find many of the classical English writers were sickend with the spectre of Opium.
What has to do with religion well if you think religion is merciles barabric and cyinical then scince the new religion is cruel by it's nature.
The progression of scince is a catalouge of pain that led to cures or treatments i.e Eltectro threapy of the mentaly ill that was found to be torturous and led to incresed use of physcothreapy.
I find science to be just as faceless and cold as any GOD could be and with almost as little to show in realtion to the explaination to how and why life exsisted.

I think at this stage of humanity our minds are not advanced or wrothy to understand the how,why,when of creation.
Let me put it this way if my theory is correct and human minds are just unable to comperhend how things came to be then the answer could be staring us right in the face and we will never ever know.

I am unsure about both religion and science as both in my eyes leave more questions than answers.

Gosh, I hate seeing my stupid avatar three times in a row but I wanted to respond to this very intelligent post.

I totally understand your view of science. It kind of equates mine. However (as you know by now), I don't feel that God is faceless and cold. I feel I have a legitimate relationship with him through prayer. Corny sounding to some, I know, but very real to me.

Let's look at it this way. Say that beyond any doubt at all the bible is actually the word of God. Not just a good mythical story but truly a guidebook that God had written for us. If that is the case we can understand how creation happened, who the first man was, how God's chosen people lost and regained favor, how all nations are acceptable to God, the personality of his only begotten son in human form, and most of all, the hope humans have for their future. Every question we could possibly have about the meaning of life would be answered. No more wondering. No more doubt at all. Just peace of mind and no more fear. Don't you see why millions of people take this road?

free

05-22-2003, 02:52 AM

It's their 'tribulation' to have to fight against acting on those tendencies.

Do you think homosexuality is a "disease" that must be cured?

God just grants people this "disease" to toy with them, and see if they will obey him or not? To make their life a living torment because they have what society considers a "problem". To hide in dark corners, forced to secretly meet to show the one human emotion they most want to show. Hmmm....God loves us indeed.

If you wanna see God's love, read the book of Job.

Siren, what would you say to your son if he comes home with another man and tells you he is happy and in love? Pray from him to lose this love, the passion of his life, just to satisfy a God who once commanded armies to destroy an entire tribe; man, woman, child, and animal?

A God who let my grandmother suffer for years, just to watch her die a painful death from lung cancer.

To have my friend be raped repeatedly when she was a small child, unable to defend herself.

To allow babies to die in their wombs, mother's huddled over the dead child, crying and asking why a God of love and caring would allow such a thing to happen. (I was once told God does this so that the child wouldn't suffer the trials of life....So what, fuck the rest of us?)

If that's the work of God, then I'd rather burn in hell.

BakeTheMooCow

05-22-2003, 03:47 AM

I'm tired of seeing GOD portrayed in such a bad light in this thread. If you believe GOD has done such horrible things, then why don't you see the flipside.. all the good things that have been done in this world. Why don't you look at all the times rain has fallen upon a famine-stricken country.. or when someone survives an accident and doctors can't explain how.. or the beauty of animals ; the intricate systems at work in their bodies.. large fields of crops providing food for villages.. gushing rivers and oceans providing water for millions ... Or just the simple things.. the ability to see, to hear, to talk, to walk, things we take for granted.

I don't have an explanation for all the bad in the world, and I don't pretend to. But GOD for me cannot be defined literally. I don't say "He" because GOD doesn't have the physical description of a man. GOD is beyond literal description. AND imagination. Imagining a large entity in the sky above the clouds actually looking down on earth is ridiculous. If you believe in GOD or even accept the POSSIBILITY of a GOD, then you can't assign those physical limitations.

So if we cannot understand the nature of GOD, how can we understand what GOD does and what GOD intends to?

We can't.

You know, there's a teleological argument for the existence of GOD that many people agree with. It's the occurence of miracles and how they are explained. When someone experiences a miracle and are convinced that it's GOD's work.. the most common counter-argument is that science will explain this in an entirely non-religious and rational way in the future. Well, if you put so much of trust in science.. why can't you believe that GOD will do the same in the future for us?

And if science and evolution are what you believe in, and not GOD, then blame THEM for the bad things that happen to children and innocent people in this world. Blame science for not giving children the ability to run away fast enough, or blame science for allowing cancers to spread in the body.

No, of course that won't happen. Because it's so easy to just bash GOD away. Oh yeah, GOD's a regular Bond villain.

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 04:17 AM

Ignore this...

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 04:18 AM

something that bugs me is this idea of the "imperfect man" (which as far as i can see means anyone who doesnt do things the god way....

well just to answer that with a few points, using one or two little religious tidbits...
Three main points i wish to dwell on

1) god created everything.
2) we were made in gods image.
3) god is omnipresent (in everything and everywhere at once), omnipotent and omniscient (all knowing).

so the imperfect human as regards this. first off, surely if god was the creator and that we are his work, surely he could have built in some kind of fail-safe---sort of an inbuilt anti-corruption device? surely, if we were created by god, it doesnt take much of a logical leap to point out that he could be responsible for the things that you have referred to as imperfections. Don't forget, even the first man and woman screwed up. maybe the imperfections were created in us at the time (if you buy the creation theory, which i dont personally)

Points 2 and 3 are sort of meant to be read together in a way. If god is omnipresent, then that must mean a little part of him (or her) is present in all of us. if god made us in his image, it kind if again implies that there is a just a little bit of himself in us. so whats my point? again, maybe these alleged imperfections were things that god would have wanted there and that maybe its the interpretation put on it by persons who wish to view them as imperfections.

Also, god is all-knowing? that could imply that he would have just a little foresight about these imperfections and could have acted in a way so as to preclude them from coming around. or if they were really a problem for him, surely he could wave the old omnipotence wand and put it right.

of course all of that would depend on a belief in god, or any higher entity.

i say its the imperfections that make life worth living. i like the variety...take homosexuality. i dont think there is a thing right with it, we all need love, and if some peopke need the love of a person of the same sex, then i am all for it. its their conscious decison, and should do as they will, atleast until a higher entity (god or other) actually holds up there hand (or hands) and admits they are real, and that there "imperfections" (perfections perhaps would be better- i believe its when you appreciate a persons imperfections that they become perfect to you, but thats a digression) back to the point...that these imperfections are wrong and have to go,. but until told otherwise, its hello free choice and right to live as you want to live, with whom so ever you want to live with.

sorry if i rambled on, and it is a bit early, so i am probably not making much sense. i am not really an intelligent or eloquent person, so all my ranting here has probably been unreadable garbage anyway...

although i still hold that this has been a brilliant debate, and i am pleased to see it has remained civilized so far...

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by free
Do you think homosexuality is a "disease" that must be cured?

God just grants people this "disease" to toy with them, and see if they will obey him or not? To make their life a living torment because they have what society considers a "problem". To hide in dark corners, forced to secretly meet to show the one human emotion they most want to show. Hmmm....God loves us indeed.

If you wanna see God's love, read the book of Job.

Siren, what would you say to your son if he comes home with another man and tells you he is happy and in love? Pray from him to lose this love, the passion of his life, just to satisfy a God who once commanded armies to destroy an entire tribe; man, woman, child, and animal?

A God who let my grandmother suffer for years, just to watch her die a painful death from lung cancer.

To have my friend be raped repeatedly when she was a small child, unable to defend herself.

To allow babies to die in their wombs, mother's huddled over the dead child, crying and asking why a God of love and caring would allow such a thing to happen. (I was once told God does this so that the child wouldn't suffer the trials of life....So what, fuck the rest of us?)

If that's the work of God, then I'd rather burn in hell.

First let me tell you that I am SO sorry that you have had so much unhappiness in your family. I mean that. It is horrible the things we have to deal with in our society.
Second, please look at my former posts so that I can be spared the 'grueling' task of repeating myself. :D Grebrdron said something similar to your comment about homosexuals earlier. I'll repeat in abbreviation. The imperfections and suffering of this world were wrought by Satan, not by God. You can believe God doesnt love you if it comforts you but the hope expressed in the bible and sacrifice of his son in order to rid us of inherited sin and death tells me otherwise.

I have read every book in the bible including Job. Job is only a condensed version of what we are all living in right now. The devill tells GOd that man will choose not worship him if he takes the things he loves, including his own health, away. God allows him to make that claim and do what he can to try to trun Job away. But Job didnt turn. And he was blessed tenfold. Unfortunately most of man today has turned from God for exactly the same reason that the devil claimed they would.

I would love my son regardless of what he became but to be frank, yes I would pray. Because I would know that happiness in this world is trivial compared to happiness that is possible when you make the necessary sacrifices.

Remember God has the right to make decisions that effect his sovreignty but he never acts on those decisions without repeated warnings to those involved. Armegeddon will be another example of this.

Once again, I hope this answers your questions as to how I feel and I'm extremely sorry for all you've been through. And frankly again, I'm sorry but you won't burn in hell. The bible doesnt teach that there is a burning fiery hell.;)

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
something that bugs me is this idea of the "imperfect man" (which as far as i can see means anyone who doesnt do things the god way....

well just to answer that with a few points, using one or two little religious tidbits...
Three main points i wish to dwell on

1) god created everything.
2) we were made in gods image.
3) god is omnipresent (in everything and everywhere at once), omnipotent and omniscient (all knowing).

so the imperfect human as regards this. first off, surely if god was the creator and that we are his work, surely he could have built in some kind of fail-safe---sort of an inbuilt anti-corruption device? surely, if we were created by god, it doesnt take much of a logical leap to point out that he could be responsible for the things that you have referred to as imperfections. Don't forget, even the first man and woman screwed up. maybe the imperfections were created in us at the time (if you buy the creation theory, which i dont personally)

Points 2 and 3 are sort of meant to be read together in a way. If god is omnipresent, then that must mean a little part of him (or her) is present in all of us. if god made us in his image, it kind if again implies that there is a just a little bit of himself in us. so whats my point? again, maybe these alleged imperfections were things that god would have wanted there and that maybe its the interpretation put on it by persons who wish to view them as imperfections.

Also, god is all-knowing? that could imply that he would have just a little foresight about these imperfections and could have acted in a way so as to preclude them from coming around. or if they were really a problem for him, surely he could wave the old omnipotence wand and put it right.

of course all of that would depend on a belief in god, or any higher entity.

i say its the imperfections that make life worth living. i like the variety...take homosexuality. i dont think there is a thing right with it, we all need love, and if some peopke need the love of a person of the same sex, then i am all for it. its their conscious decison, and should do as they will, atleast until a higher entity (god or other) actually holds up there hand (or hands) and admits they are real, and that there "imperfections" (perfections perhaps would be better- i believe its when you appreciate a persons imperfections that they become perfect to you, but thats a digression) back to the point...that these imperfections are wrong and have to go,. but until told otherwise, its hello free choice and right to live as you want to live, with whom so ever you want to live with.

sorry if i rambled on, and it is a bit early, so i am probably not making much sense. i am not really an intelligent or eloquent person, so all my ranting here has probably been unreadable garbage anyway...

although i still hold that this has been a brilliant debate, and i am pleased to see it has remained civilized so far...

God is omniscient. It is impossible and unnecessary for us to comprehend. Your argument is actually a classic argument pertaining to the creation account. To me, it's quite clear. Not to be reduntant, but I have mentioned a few times before that man and the angels were given the freedom of choice. To implant an 'anti corruption' device would certainly make a very bold blot on that choice. It would also mean that men were worshipping God out of compulsion instead of willingly. That was not God's wish. His wish was that men would worship him out of love. Man WAS created perfect, in God's image, but their punishment for sin was to lose that perfection. It's true that an all knowing God could have known ahead of time that man would take this step but since that is out of keeping w/ the loving Jehovah of the bible, it is more likely that he chose not to know. Since none of us are perfect or omnipotent, it is difficult for us to comprehend that but that's why I believe it all the more. So, I never blame God for the imperfections and problems in this world. It was a joint effort by man and Satan. If Adam could have forseen how the world would turn out whose to say he would still have sinned? But he did and here we are.
I agree with you that variety is 'the spice of life' but I don't think it's imperfections that bring about that variety. I believe it's the God-given traits that do. The personalities, the colors, the textures, the flavors etc.

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Grebdron
But Pater, why is homosexuality immoral? Didn't god create homosexuals? He created everything. In his image, no less.

Or do homosexuals CHOOSE to be that way, for some deviant sexual thrills? I know MANY gay people, and not one of them would choose that life, for it's not an easy one.

First of all, let me say that I wish we could all sit down in a pub and talk about this over a couple o' pints. It is much easier to have a coherent discussion that way. From the time I left work yesterday until now a page and a half of posts were added. Sorry I was out for the loop for so long.

OK, Greb, and Count too, you guys ask a good question. I think that homosexuality is a sin, but I am willing to admit I could be wrong on this. It is how I interperet what the Bible says. But so is any sex outside a marriage, so is my lusting after Monica Bellucci when I saw the Matrix, so is "gay bashing" so is judging someone because they are gay, so is lying, so is my selfishness when I come home from work and want to veg and watch a movie, and I don't help my wife get the kids ready for bed. They are all equal.

I think it is sad that society has such a hang up with homosexuality, as if it is some kind of super sin that they are above. As I've said in my previous posts, we all sin, every one of us. No sin is greater than any other, Some might have earthly consequenses that are greater, murder for instance, or adultery.

Another thing, I don't think homosexuals should be treated any differently than anyone else. It is sad that they are condemned by small minded, self righteous idiots. Jesus says not to point out the spec in your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own. Basically worry about yourself, don't go pointing out peoples shortcomings and judging them.

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
i dont buy that, because you have yet to prove to me that the bible is anything more than a beautifully written myth...

i am sorry siren, but if you were being tried in a court on this (for example) you would be in pretty deep poo to be honest. all the points you raise are perfectly valid for someone with your faith, you just dont seem to be able to support it with anything other than the bible (see above) and what you believe. beliefs that you dont have much in the way of tangiable and substantial evidence to support.tand thats the problem. there is far more evidence scientifically to back up myself and grebs point of view on this. creation, the order of the universe and so on and so forth.

i will only admit you are right when you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and i think because of the very nature of religion and your beliefs, that is going to be very difficult for you to do

ouch...that sounded really harsh

ps- i am really enjoying this debate. its good to stretch the old mental legs a little ;)

I know you were talking to Siren, but I's like to make a few comments on your post. Personally, I was viewing this more like a sharing of ideas rather than a trial. It would be very difficult in a forum such as this to "prove" annything. I appreciate your desire to see evidence and proof, and I would encourage you to seek evidence and proof by studying and reading widely on the topic. I have avoided getting into arguments like "well this scientist says this", "yeah, but this scientist says that".

I will say that there are indeed many scientists who support creation, not neccessarily religious one's either. But I would really encourage you to do some research on your own. If you're like me, you're gonna want to read for yourself, weigh the evidence and make up your own mind. I do not believe that you need to "turn off your mind" to have faith that Jesus is real and that the Bible is more than a collection of myths.

For some good logical arguments, I suggest "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis. - The movie Shadowlands was about his life. (bringin it back to movies;) ). I'll try to find some good resources for a scientific perspective on creation. I'll get back to ya.

One more thing, I am not looking for you to "admit I am right", I'm just sharing a perspective that you may or may not wish to consider.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 09:18 AM

Hi Pater. Glad to see you back.

I'm glad you made that comment about all sins being equal in God's eyes (although I don't think your reluctance to help your wife get the kids ready is QUITE the same as if you were cheating on her :D ). It makes me so ill how people will judge a person based on how THEY view the sin that he commited. I hate when people ask me questions about homosexuality because they think that if I agree w/ the bible's take on it, that makes me a 'gay basher' of some sort. I also don't agree w/ the lifestyle of those who live a promiscuously, but I surely don't attempt to judge them or degrade them. :rolleyes:

We just want you guys to realize the power that faith can have in a person's life and that it doesnt always mean you are a fanatic or condemning your fellowman for believing differently than you.

Corpse Candle

05-22-2003, 10:28 AM

If GOD is all powerfull then why does he allow the presance of SATAN and his evil.
Basicly to use a simple metaphor how do you know you have turned the light on if there is no darkness to cloak it.
How can you distingish good if evil isn't present to compare it to I have a firm belief that evil is as much a part of the cosmic balance as good one cannot have an identity without the other.

Oh and thanks SIREN I didn't think I was intelligent;)

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Corpse Candle
If GOD is all powerfull then why does he allow the presance of SATAN and his evil.
Basicly to use a simple metaphor how do you know you have turned the light on if there is no darkness to cloak it.
How can you distingish good if evil isn't present to compare it to I have a firm belief that evil is as much a part of the cosmic balance as good one cannot have an identity without the other.

Oh and thanks SIREN I didn't think I was intelligent;)

Put it this way. You are a world leader. A man rises among the people that attempts to take over your throne. You are amazed because everything he speaks is a lie and you have always been a kind and just ruler. Your people love you. Your kindom is prospering and you are certain the people are healthy and happy. Yet, amazingly, your people are beginning to doubt that you should be their ruler. They know that they are being better taken care of then they could possible do themselves but still they are believing the lies of this ingrate. Which is it easier to do? Destroy the problem or prove you are worthy to be the ruler? Of course it's EASIER and much quicker to just squash the problem but what does that solve? The people could still have doubts. They could still be bitter towards you and worship out of compulsion because they're afraid they'll be squshed too, not because they love you. As a ruler, wouldnt you rather let the people make up their own minds and serve you out of graciousness and love rather than just because you dictate it? So you allow the idiot to rant and you allow the people to make their mistakes and you provide a list of principles that will make their lives easier and see who follows it.

Good is what our consciences tell us is right. I think without the devil's influence it would be quite possible to do what is 'good' all the time.

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 11:37 AM

See, to me it all comes back to God ALLOWING all of this, since he's omnipotent. He wants all of this to happen to see who truly worships him.

Siren, the ruler theory is great, except you made it about the people serving their ruler. IMO, it should be the other way around. Our leaders should serve us. And they have forgotten that.

Bake, it would be easy to think about all the good things, if we weren't slapped in the face every day with the bad things. Why are those countries ravaged by drought and famine in the first place?

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 11:59 AM

Like I said, Grebdron, I understand your feelings. My feelings of pity are intense also. But they are human feelings and I know that the God I worship would not allow these things to continue if it didnt mean a lasting solution to it all in the end. I feel that's why he gave us the bible, so that we can have an understanding of why these things are allowed to happen and what the eventuality of it all will be. Believe me, if you have faith in the bible, it really does make it much easier. After Jesus description of the last days he makes the statement,' but when you see these things start occur, raise your heads erect for your deliverence is getting near.' That is the hope that keeps me going.

See, your argument is that you only want to believe what is tangible. If God exists, you refuse to believe, due to what you see, that he cares about us. If he doesnt exist then we are all just a product of evolution, w/no purpose to our lives. That would mean that this life is all there is. I cannot bring myself to feel tht way. I can't look at the beauty in the world and think that it was just a wonderful accident. And I refuse to think that this life is the only one we have a prospect of living. I couldnt truly be content or happy w/out that belief. The fact that you CAN be happy in spite of your doubts, that's AMAZING and I honestly salute you for it...and anyone else who is able to be truly happy without having a hope for their future. I mean the human family has degenerated into chaos and if you can be content and at peace in the midst of it, that is a real gift.

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 12:06 PM

I can be happy this way. I see that I am surrounded by beauty, and love. With the people I care about. And the fact that this life is the only one I get to live makes me value it while I'm living it.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 12:17 PM

But if you COULD live forever, and never get old, and your family could be there with you, and the earth was restored to paradise where everyone lived in harmony with adequate food, housing etc....wouldnt you want to?

BadCoverVersion

05-22-2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
If he doesnt exist then we are all just a product of evolution, w/no purpose to our lives.

So, we've established the fact that you are a believer Siren...;)

What's your purpose in life?

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
But if you COULD live forever, and never get old, and your family could be there with you, and the earth was restored to paradise where everyone lived in harmony with adequate food, housing etc....wouldnt you want to?

Not if it was at the expense of everybody who didn't believe.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Not if it was at the expense of everybody who didn't believe.

Well, Armageddonwill be a war fought from heaven so by then, everyone will have to believe whether they want to or not. The bible makes it very clear that before the destruction of the wicked, it wil be evident through supernatural events who is responsible. At that point, it is up to God whether those who refused to believe based on lack of tangible evidence will now be accepted into his 'new earth'.

Neesh

05-22-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Well, Armageddonwill be a war fought from heaven so by then, everyone will have to believe whether they want to or not. The bible makes it very clear that before the destruction of the wicked, it wil be evident through supernatural events who is responsible. At that point, it is up to God whether those who refused to believe based on lack of tangible evidence will now be accepted into his 'new earth'.

whew ..... theres hope for me!!! :)

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 01:08 PM

This is not meant as an insult at all, Siren, but my own personal concept of Hell would be spending eternity with an earth filled with nothing but fervent believers.

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
Not if it was at the expense of everybody who didn't believe.

I don't see how it would be at their expense .

I'm gonna take a page out of Bubba's book and try to do a little analogy.

It's like if someone had cookies and they were in a room. And they said, hey anyone who comes in can have a free cookie. So you go in the room and say, wait a minute, what about those who are not here? I'm not gonna eat a cookie at their expense! And the cookie guy says, "they are more than welcome to come on in and get a cookie, but they are choosing not to."

If the Bible is true, than I am not going to have eternal life at an unbelievers expense, It's an open invitation. As Delmar said in O Brother Where Art Thou, "Come on in boys, the waters fine"

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 01:10 PM

But Pater, what I get from that argument is that non-believers are doomed, or at least not welcomed into the eternal nirvana.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
So, we've established the fact that you are a believer Siren...;)

What's your purpose in life?

Well God created the earth 'even to be inhabited' and the 'earth he has given to the sons of men'. So I'd say my purpose is what God intended for me...to live in a paradise earth free from sickness and pain with no causes for struggle or unhappiness. There will be a ressurection after a short period of time that will allow us to see our dead loved ones again.

When Christ died and the way was opened for the rest of mankind to receive salvation the old law covenant w/ the nation of Israel was replaced w/ two basic laws: 'Love Jehovah your God w/ your whole mind, heart, soul, and strengh' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. Then, in Ecclesiasties, King Solomon made it clear what that included 'The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard is : Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man'

So that's my purpose and that's my obligation.

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
But Pater, what I get from that argument is that non-believers are doomed, or at least not welcomed into the eternal nirvana.

Look, I can't say who is in and who is out. But in the Bible, Jesus says "whoever believes in me shall have eternal life" and"come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest". I can't say for certain how God will deal with every individual, but it seems to me that your statement is generally true.

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 01:27 PM

A large part of my problem with the selection process is I'm often told that if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, even on your death bed, then you are in. So I would ask that if I lead a decent life, but don't accept Jesus, I'm out. But somebody lie Jeffrey Dahmer were to repent and accept Jesus, he's in.

That's a pretty horrible thought.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 01:31 PM

So you are telling me Grebdron that if fire came down from heaven and directly in front of your eyes you saw the destruction of all the things that God detests, then you wouldn't believe? Of course you would because then you'd have tangible evidence. So why would it be 'hell' to live on earth w/ other people who feel the same way you do?

And what do you think of this scripture? 'Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement.' Does that sound like god is 'writing off' unbelievers? Or does it sound like that he is willing to give everyone a chance, based on their heart condition? God recognized that some people do bad things out of ignorance, not actually a defying of his holy spirit. This is PRECISELY why, we as Christians, cannot take it upon ourselves to judge anyone. And also why I believe if you are living a good life but you are not capable of believing in the intangible, there is every possibility that God will not forget about you.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 01:33 PM

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
I know you were talking to Siren, but I's like to make a few comments on your post. Personally, I was viewing this more like a sharing of ideas rather than a trial.

.

so am i pater. i do see this as a sharing of ideas. you have to remember that i am a law student with my finals next week. i was just thinking in terms of who can actually back up their point with more objective evidence is all...

i guess i got a bit out of hand ;) honestly. once me exams are done, i will be back to normal :)

I believe it's the God-given traits that do. The personalities, the colors, the textures, the flavors etc.

well if personality traits are god given, i guess thats where homosexuality, anger, jealousy and so forth come from. ;) oh wait, of course, i can actually produce your counter-argument. its all man, even though you would be sort of contradicting your earlier post ;)

no siren, the people i love in this world i am close to because i know them and it is their imperfections that interest me. imperfection is human and beautiful...

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
A large part of my problem with the selection process is I'm often told that if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, even on your death bed, then you are in. So I would ask that if I lead a decent life, but don't accept Jesus, I'm out. But somebody lie Jeffrey Dahmer were to repent and accept Jesus, he's in.

That's a pretty horrible thought.

Is it? It is the best news I have ever heard!! All are welcome, it doesn't matter how bad you have been. Personally I am glad for this because I am constantly doing things that are displeasing to God.

As far as being decent, I refer to some of my earlier posts that according to the Bible, we are all in the same boat. None of us are righteous, not even one. So it's not some mark you have to measure up to, it's not a matter of well I was x good so I'm in but if I was X-1 good I am out. I think that is awesome news!!

Forget comparing yourself to Dahmer, or Bundy, or Billy Graham, or whoever. The important thing is where do you stand before God? You can choose to seek Him, believe in Him, and have eternal life, or, for all the reasons you and others have mentioned, reject Him, curse Him, be indifferent to Him, etc.

It's up to you, individually to make that choice.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
so am i pater. i do see this as a sharing of ideas. you have to remember that i am a law student with my finals next week. i was just thinking in terms of who can actually back up their point with more objective evidence is all...

i guess i got a bit out of hand ;) honestly. once me exams are done, i will be back to normal :)

well if personality traits are god given, i guess thats where homosexuality, anger, jealousy and so forth come from. ;) oh wait, of course, i can actually produce your counter-argument. its all man, even though you would be sort of contradicting your earlier post ;)

no siren, the people i love in this world i am close to because i know them and it is their imperfections that interest me. imperfection is human and beautiful...

I never contradict myself intentionally. I'm sorry you thought I was. I really don't view homosexuality as a personality trait but if you do, then I also can say again that homosexual tendencies are not forbidden. Anger definitely is not. Neither is jealousy. And of course you love people for their imperfections. You couldnt relate to them otherwise. It's all you and I know so if we didnt honor people because of their imperfections, it would be impossible for us to live a decent life.

And Pater, just to clarify so that no one thinks we are contradicting each other...I think we may have a different view of the word righteous. Righteous as I understand it doesnt mean someone who is sin-free. it simply means someone who is living their life in accordance w/ God's will to the best of their ability. I absolutely must put stock in the fact that God is forgiving of sins, otherwise none of us could stand at all. My comment concerning Jeffrey Dahmer was an attempt to explain that token 'repentances' mean nothing to god, just like'token prayers'. if someone is genuinely repentant, God does indeed forgive.:)

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias

Forget comparing yourself to Dahmer, or Bundy, or Billy Graham, or whoever. The important thing is where do you stand before God? You can choose to seek Him, believe in Him, and have eternal life, or, for all the reasons you and others have mentioned, reject Him, curse Him, be indifferent to Him, etc.

It's up to you, individually to make that choice.

i will accept god when he 100% proves he is reliable and actually exists.

until then, i have to remain closed. if i cant hold it, cant see it,cant taste it and cant know it there, how can i believe it?

one thing thought-why refer to god as he? if there is a god, i am fairly sure it would beyond simple restrictions such as gender...

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
I never contradict myself intentionally. I'm sorry you thought I was. I really don't view homosexuality as a personality trait but if you do, then I also can say again that homosexual tendencies are not forbidden. Anger definitely is not. Neither is jealousy. And of course you love people for their imperfections. You couldnt relate to them otherwise. It's all you and I know so if we didnt honor people because of their imperfections, it would be impossible for us to live a decent life.

siren, that looked like you agreed with me?

first time this thread....

(remind to catch you in the music forum. there at least we can agree a little ;))

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 02:00 PM

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
i will accept god when he 100% proves he is reliable and actually exists.

until then, i have to remain closed. if i cant hold it, cant see it,cant taste it and cant know it there, how can i believe it?

one thing thought-why refer to god as he? if there is a god, i am fairly sure it would beyond simple restrictions such as gender...

I personally think remaining 'open' would be more beneficial but oh well. Start looking around. See if you see anything that could be deemed miraculous. Then find the scientific explanation and see if it clicks in your head.

Ah, but you forget we are bible readers and we put great faith in what it says. The bible refers to God as 'he' possibly to make it easier for us to gain a relationship w/ him. Therefore, so do we.

Of COURSE I agree that you must honor people w/ their imperfections! Where would I be if I didnt feel that way or more importantly, if people didnt feel that way towards me?:p

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Paterfamilias
I didn't know that you were a law student. Good luck on your finals. As you are a law student, I definitely recommend "Mere Christianity" you will like it. He makes very logical areguments. Another good book is "Evidence that demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

give me some time pater. i am spending enough time reading logical arguments at the moments. and more time trying to decipher the illogical ones (fucking judges...)

:D:D

but i will bear that in mind...

Grebdron

05-22-2003, 02:06 PM

See, my point is about the sincerity. If I choose not to accept Jesus, even on my death ded, I'm out. But Dahmer could really be sincere in his repentance, and would be in. I don't like that thought at all.

And Pater, it DOESN"T sound good to me that he would accept all comers, no matter how bad their misdeeds. I also don't hold with the thought that all sin is equal.

I was a drug addict. Sinned daily. Hell, hourly. But that makes me as bad as Dahmer? I don't think so.

quoth_the_raven

05-22-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by SIREN30
Ah, but you forget we are bible readers and we put great faith in what it says. The bible refers to God as 'he' possibly to make it easier for us to gain a relationship w/ him. Therefore, so do we.

Of COURSE I agree that you must honor people w/ their imperfections! Where would I be if I didnt feel that way or more importantly, if people didnt feel that way towards me?:p

i concede that one to a point siren, but, if man and woman came from gods image, he must be beyond gender,.

shit you got me using the he as well now....

Tuukka

05-22-2003, 02:12 PM

Sorry for not reading every post in this rather lenghty thread, but I will just drop my two cents.

Science doesn't deny the existence of God, because the existence of God cannot be researched in scientific manner. If God exists and he has created the World, his own existance is somewhere outside of our own existance and beyond the means how we research the world.

Science doesn't offer facts, only theories. It provides concepts and then tries to prove them. The consept of FAITH can be researched scientifically to a certain degree in terms of how a person feels the faith inside him/her, but the object of faith can never be proven scientifically. If it could, it wouldn't be a question of faith anymore.

Since science only provides theories, not facts, it trusts in the natural tendency of humans to choose the theory which has the biggest amount of proof to it. This is why evolutionist theory is so popular. The amount of proof to that consept is astounding. In fact evolutionary process is still constantly happening around us and can be researched especially well in insects, since their lifespan is very fast.

At the same time a scientific research of Bible has shown that the book cannot be taken word to word. For example the New Testament tells different versions of the story of Jesus and there are obvious contradictions (For example Judas dies in two totally different ways in two totally different locations). There are several hundreds of obvious contradictions, I've studied them myself.

If Bible should be taken 100% literally, there couldn't be contradictions. Since they exist, the book can't be 100% the word of God. If it is, we have to make a logical conclusion that God must be crazy. But a lot more logical explanation would be that:

- Bible was written by men without divine interaction.

- Bible was written by men with divine interaction, BUT some of the things in the book are from men, not from God.

- Bible has been changed in the countless of translations (In fact nowadays there are DIFFERENT versions of the Bible in different countries. USA mostly has the James King version).

No matter how you look at it, there is no way that the Bible is at least partially written by men. Now the question is, WHAT PARTS ARE WRITTEN BY GOD AND WHICH ARE NOT?

You can't know. Nobody does. If someone claims to know which parts are God's Word, that person raises himself/herself to a position of God. Because only God could possibly have the information.

So if someone claims to *KNOW* which parts of Bible are from God, that person claims to know something that only a God could know. But if someone *BELIEVES* that some part of Bible is from God, then that's a different matter. Faith is no fact. Everyone is entitled to their faith.

But you shouldn't state your own personal faith and unproven opinions as fact. It tells a lot more about you than about God or Bible.

I think any christian can be safe to assume, that the Bible and most importantly New Testament deliver the basic message of christianity. And remember that the Old Testament is the holy book of JEWS, not christians.

Thing about loving other people like you love yourself seemed to pretty much the point of the whole thing, so I think we can assume that to be fairly accurate.

But when it comes to for example Creationism Vs. Evolutionism, both can easily co-exist. A large percentage of evolutionist are christian and their basic line of thought is that creation story in Bible is supposed to be taken symbolically, not literally.

Does anyone really think that the people 2000-3000 years ago could have understood the full scientific explanation of evolutionary theory? Naturally they needed a more dumbed-down version. Something that anyone could understand.

So the idea among christian evolutionists is that God created the world - By using evolution.

So far God doesn't told us that these christian evolutionists are wrong and we can't know for sure that they have been all sent to hell after their death, so I think it's a fairly reasonable idea.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
See, my point is about the sincerity. If I choose not to accept Jesus, even on my death ded, I'm out. But Dahmer could really be sincere in his repentance, and would be in. I don't like that thought at all.

And Pater, it DOESN"T sound good to me that he would accept all comers, no matter how bad their misdeeds. I also don't hold with the thought that all sin is equal.

I was a drug addict. Sinned daily. Hell, hourly. But that makes me as bad as Dahmer? I don't think so.

Why do you think you'd be 'out'? Because some church told you that? I guarantee the bible doesnt tell us that 'nonbelievers' will not inherit God's Kingdom. It says 'the evildoers themseves will be cut off' etc....and it says those hoping in Jesus will be saved and 'the righteous themselves will possess the earth...' But no one can tell you that because your mind doesnt grasp the idea of a Supreme Being or because you are too disgusted w/ wickedness and suffering to believe that God could exist , that you are 'automatically' shut out. Unless you want to be, that is.

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Tuukka
Sorry for not reading every post in this rather lenghty thread, but I will just drop my two cents.

Science doesn't deny the existence of God, because the existence of God cannot be researched in scientific manner. If God exists and he has created the World, his own existance is somewhere outside of our own existance and beyond the means how we research the world.

Science doesn't offer facts, only theories. It provides concepts and then tries to prove them. The consept of FAITH can be researched scientifically to a certain degree in terms of how a person feels the faith inside him/her, but the object of faith can never be proven scientifically. If it could, it wouldn't be a question of faith anymore.

Since science only provides theories, not facts, it trusts in the natural tendency of humans to choose the theory which has the biggest amount of proof to it. This is why evolutionist theory is so popular. The amount of proof to that consept is astounding. In fact evolutionary process is still constantly happening around us and can be researched especially well in insects, since their lifespan is very fast.

At the same time a scientific research of Bible has shown that the book cannot be taken word to word. For example the New Testament tells different versions of the story of Jesus and there are obvious contradictions (For example Judas dies in two totally different ways in two totally different locations). There are several hundreds of obvious contradictions, I've studied them myself.

If Bible should be taken 100% literally, there couldn't be contradictions. Since they exist, the book can't be 100% the word of God. If it is, we have to make a logical conclusion that God must be crazy. But a lot more logical explanation would be that:

- Bible was written by men without divine interaction.

- Bible was written by men with divine interaction, BUT some of the things in the book are from men, not from God.

- Bible has been changed in the countless of translations (In fact nowadays there are DIFFERENT versions of the Bible in different countries. USA mostly has the James King version).

No matter how you look at it, there is no way that the Bible is at least partially written by men. Now the question is, WHAT PARTS ARE WRITTEN BY GOD AND WHICH ARE NOT?

You can't know. Nobody does. If someone claims to know which parts are God's Word, that person raises himself/herself to a position of God. Because only God could possibly have the information.

So if someone claims to *KNOW* which parts of Bible are from God, that person claims to know something that only a God could know. But if someone *BELIEVES* that some part of Bible is from God, then that's a different matter. Faith is no fact. Everyone is entitled to their faith.

But you shouldn't state your own personal faith and unproven opinions as fact. It tells a lot more about you than about God or Bible.

I think any christian can be safe to assume, that the Bible and most importantly New Testament deliver the basic message of christianity. And remember that the Old Testament is the holy book of JEWS, not christians.

Thing about loving other people like you love yourself seemed to pretty much the point of the whole thing, so I think we can assume that to be fairly accurate.

But when it comes to for example Creationism Vs. Evolutionism, both can easily co-exist. A large percentage of evolutionist are christian and their basic line of thought is that creation story in Bible is supposed to be taken symbolically, not literally.

Does anyone really think that the people 2000-3000 years ago could have understood the full scientific explanation of evolutionary theory? Naturally they needed a more dumbed-down version. Something that anyone could understand.

So the idea among christian evolutionists is that God created the world - By using evolution.

So far God doesn't told us that these christian evolutionists are wrong and we can't know for sure that they have been all sent to hell after their death, so I think it's a fairly reasonable idea.

I'm glad you joined the conversation tuuka. A couple of things:

The accounts of Jesus life (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) contain exactly the same information but the differences lie in the fact that four different men, from four different walks of life wrote it. For example, Luke was doctor and also was not one of Jesus apostles. He got his version of the actual happenings second hand (probably from the irrepresible Peter) and also some medical facts are included in his story that are not in the others. John was extremely close to Jesus and therefore his account is much more personal and even emotional at times. But the actual occurances are the same. The death of Judas is only described once, in which he hanged himself. The other account merely says what happened to the body. Obviously, he tried to hang himself over some type of ravine and the limb broke which was why his body was splattered over the bottom of a ravine. The terrain of the area round about would justify this. Either way, the fact that he committed suicide is obviously the only important fact of his death.

No one has yet been able to show me a seeming contradiction in the bible that cannot be explained by context.

One of the reasons I claim to 'know' that the bible is the word of God is because of the fact that the basic theme and teaching throughout the bible is the same even though much of it was written centuries apart. In depth study shows me only how trustworthy it really is and I fervently believe when 2 TIM says 'ALL scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving for setting thing straight.' I beg to differ but if faith is described as an 'assured' expectation then it is impossible for me to declare my beliefs as anything but fact. I think the way I've been answering questions seems to be irking you because I am stating them as fact but to me, they are...so all I can do is apologize if I've offended you in any way. ;)

Paterfamilias

05-22-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Grebdron
See, my point is about the sincerity. If I choose not to accept Jesus, even on my death ded, I'm out. But Dahmer could really be sincere in his repentance, and would be in. I don't like that thought at all.

And Pater, it DOESN"T sound good to me that he would accept all comers, no matter how bad their misdeeds. I also don't hold with the thought that all sin is equal.

I was a drug addict. Sinned daily. Hell, hourly. But that makes me as bad as Dahmer? I don't think so.

I agree that sincerity is important. Only God knows what is in a person's heart.

Whether you are as bad as Dahmer is not the point. What about someone who was just a little "worse" than you, would it be ok if they "got in"? How bout someone a little more worse? The point is are you good enough to gain eternal life. I believe only one man has ever been "good enough" and the is Jesus. The rest of us have all fallen short.

Let's say there is a big chasm. And you can jump farther than I can but you still can't make it all the way across. Now lets say someone puts a bridge accross the chasm. That bridge will enable you the far jumper to get across, but it will also help me the short jumper to get across. All we have to do is walk across the bridge.

Tuukka

05-22-2003, 02:42 PM

The death of Judas is only described once, in which he hanged himself. The other account merely says what happened to the body. Obviously, he tried to hang himself over some type of ravine and the limb broke which was why his body was splattered over the bottom of a ravine. The terrain of the area round about would justify this. Either way, the fact that he committed suicide is obviously the only important fact of his death.

No one has yet been able to show me a seeming contradiction in the bible that cannot be explained by context.

RE: Here they are:

Matthew 27:3-5

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said “I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Acts 1:18-19
With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

RE: At first Judas get's the money. He throws the money to the temple and leaves. He hangs himself. AFTER he has hanged himself he buys a field with the money he doesn't have anymore... And on the field he fells headlong and dies... For a second time.

So could you explain the context? If this is 100% the word of God, is he senile? He seems to have a hard time remembering what actually happened. Or would it be a more logical explanation that humans wrote down this information, without the assistance of God?

(PS. I have hundreds of similar contradictions)

SIREN30

05-22-2003, 02:51 PM

I am familiar with the accounts. I still don't see how this is a contradiction. In both accounts he purchased the field and he committed suicide. The field was purchased w/ the money he god for betraying Christ. One describes what happened to the body and one described the manner in which he attempted suicide. Obviously his body was found in the ravine and there was also a rope about his neck. Both accounts could therefore be accurate. I'm sorry but I don't see how this proves the senility of God. Seems like a grasp at straws to me. :D

Next....

Something else that needs to be remembered is that the bible was written as a guidebook for us to follow. The historical accounts harmonize but sometimes things are left out of one and included in another. We can attribute this to the fact that it was not important for us to know the minor details of this event and that the bible writer's own personality and interests crept into the account. As long as these minor differences did not affect the main theme of the bible or cause disharmony in the scriptures, they were allowed. But in that manner, yes, man did have a hand in writing the bible. However, it was always under the inspiration of God.

Tuukka

05-22-2003, 03:04 PM

I am familiar with the accounts. I still don't see how this is a contradiction. In both accounts he purchased the field and he committed suicide.

Here is another one:

Matthew 27:6-10

The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it is called the Field of Blood to this day. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

RE: In Matthew's version Judas didn't get the money, didn't get the field and he committed a suicide. The money was taken and used by the chief priests.

In the other version Judas got the money, he bought the field and DIDN'T commit a suicide.

That's a pretty obvious contradiction. I woud also like to point out that the Jeremiah passage mentioned was actually in Zechariah 11:12-13.

The field was purchased w/ the money he god for betraying Christ. One describes what happened to the body and one described the manner in which he attempted suicide. Obviously his body was found in the ravine and there was also a rope about his neck.

RE: Obviously? That didn't read in the Bible, YOU wrote it. You just re-wrote the Bible to suit your own theory.

I'm not trying to be aggressive since you seem like a nice and open-minded person.

But it also seem that you are intentionally ignoring an obvious contradiction. You actually had to provide information that was not provided by God to make the contradiction seem somehow sensible.