Matrix 2: Shamelessly Borrowing Liberally From Other Classics

[THAI fighter]

(SPOILERS THROUGHOUT)

Alright kids, this is my first post on these boards and I feel compelled to put my thoughts to words after returning back from seeing the Matrix Reloaded. (I was going to post this in Matrix discussion but felt it deserved a rant on its own) First off, I was a very big fan of the original film and was eagerly and anxiously anticipating the second flick and went in with a very open mind, hoping to once again get my "mind blown". I left the theatre minutes ago, completely disappointed and saddened by how the sequel failed to capture the magic of the original. The movie was slow, plodding and filled with far too many scenes of endless monologues where characters proceded to blab and yak on about the meaning of causality and control. Yawn. What disturbed me worse was the fact that I spent the entire movie laughing (literally) with a buddy of mine at how the Matrix 2 shamelessly borrowed from other classic films.

Let's go over the evidence.

1) Neo deciding to pull a Christopher Reeve and choosing to use the Matrix as his personal homage to all the Superman movies. I honestly couldn't get over how the Wachowskis could suddenly decide bestow upon Neo the powers of flight, complete with flying cape and all. The fact that Neo would fly around with one arm extended forward was even more shameless, jocking the entire Superman routine. And we can't forget him flying in to save Trinity/Lois Lane to save the day at the end. Puhhhllease. Substituting one Reeves for another Reeve? This must be like th biggest inside joke of the movie.

2) Trinity and the gang deciding to completely jock the entire highway sequence from Terminator 2 and add a few more twists to it. Let's see. Motorcycle? Check. Speeding 18 wheelers? Check. Ensuing mayhem? Check. The whole highway chase scene was cut out of T2 and pasted back into the Matrix. While we're on the Arnold/Terminator vibe, the fact that Agent Smith and the rest of the agents could touch people and shape shift was also jocked straight out of T2. Does anyone remember our friend the T-1000? (aka Robert Patrick, the shape shifting evil liquid metal bad ass robot)

3) Morpheus' big speech on front of Zion, seemed like a bad hommage to either Russel Crowe's Maximus motivational speeches in Gladiator or that movie from the 80's featuring seventies gangs (you know, "Can you diiiiiiiiggggg it?"), whose name escapes me right now. The clothes and stuff of the characters in Zion echo shades of Mad Max too. The whole Zion rally sequence seemed like it grabbed a bunch of influences and threw them all together.

4) The Architect scene was basically a shameless borrowing of the "producer" notion that was found in the Truman Show with one man running the entire show in front of a room of monitors.

5) The biggest and shameless rip off of them all. I couldn't help but spend half the movie laughing my ass of at how the Matrix 2 decided to completely and unabashedly rip off the Star Wars trilogy. I don't know if anyone has picked up on this yet, but the whole council meeting scene REEKED of the galactic council meetings found in episodes 1 and 2. Hell, the old dude that Neo talked with in the engineering room seemed an awful like Palpatine. The fact that the Matrix is based on a group of underground rebels trying to overcome an evil opressive regime sure sounds an awful like the Rebellion fighting for their freedom over the Empire. The fact that Neo was also granted the power to telekinetically grab objects with his hands (the fight scene in the restaurant, where knives jumped into his open palms) sure seems an awful lot like something a Jedi could do. Zion itself seemed straight of any Star Wars movie, maybe even a little Coruscant like, circa episode 2.

5) How is it that nobody noticed that the ending of the Matrix 2 is EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING ENDING AS THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK? I apologize for swearing but sweet jesus, this is probably what pissed me off the most. The fact that the movie ends with Neo getting injured (hurt) and that the whole group is saved by another ship (that comes out of nowhere) and that Neo is left to heal on an operating table as others look on is exactly what happens at the end of Empire. Remember? Luke is left injured after his big fight scene (hand cut off), is saved by a ship that comes out of nowhere (Millenium Falcon) and Luke if left ot heal in the Bacta tank as others look on. Wow, I had no idea the Wachowski brothers had the balls to completely rip off Star Wars this bad. George Lucas must still be waiting for his royalty checks in the mail.


Whatever, this rant has gone on way too long but has anyone else noticed these really bad borrowings of creative inputs? I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts.

Rant over.

[Lyle Waggoner]

Originally posted by THAI fighter
Morpheus' big speech on front of Zion, seemed like a bad hommage to either Russel Crowe's Maximus motivational speeches in Gladiator or that movie from the 80's featuring seventies gangs (you know, "Can you diiiiiiiiggggg it?"), whose name escapes me right now.
Heh, yeah, it's Walter Hill's The Warriors.

Everything you've said is dead on. And that's without getting into all the literary and mythological/religious influences it raided. It's like one huge pop-culture post-modernist nightmare.

But I liked it! I have no idea whether it's intentional or not, but the whole potpourri makes a whole new level of sense if you think about the essence of the Matrix itself.

[Gregorious8]

Originally posted by Lyle Waggoner
Heh, yeah, it's Walter Hill's The Warriors.



Warriors come out and play
Sorry couldn't resist

To me most of those don't seem like ripoffs at all. The whole Morpheus speech was just to get the people of Zion pumped, and that kind of speech has been done in countless films.

And about the Zion clothing every single post apocalyptic has those type of clothing also, not like it was done just by one film.

[Tuukka]

Personally I don't think that those movies you mentioned were that original in the first place. In fact they weren't. Pretty much each and every example you gave can be traced back to even older stories. Matrix is just a continuation of familiar pop-culture cliches in a new package.

It's the whole that matters, not which detail was in some other film as well. If you nitpick movies like that, you can nitpick ANY movie as a derivative of other movies.

[Doc Holliday]

Nit pick, nit pick, nit pick. There are thousands movies out there and they all have things in common with others out there. Every picks bits and pieces here or there. I personally don't think along the line you do...I guess that's obvious...but to bring down the movie because it "looked" like it picked pieces of other movies and inserted in into theres is a bit of a stretch. I hope you don't do that to all of the movies you go to, you will be very disappointed with what you see if ou do. Sometimes you have to enjoy it for what it is, and not think of what it "stole the idea" from. That's done all the time, and not just in movies.

[Clarkie02]

If you hate movies for having similar aspects, you must not like any movies. Doc Holliday is correct, all movies have aspects that can be traced to other movies. Your examples are just so far-fetched.

You could easily say with the same remarks, the brothers were paying homage to all those movies.

Give me a break!

[The Postmaster General]

I think that is a point in the movie and is also touched on in the first one. Everything they are living in isn't real. I don't know, maybe I'm making it too conceptual, but so far in the series they have been basing the Matrix universe on pop culture, for reasons that I used to think were obvious.

I still think it's neat to point out the references, or similarities though. For instance....

VAGUE SPOILERS FOR HITCHIKERS GUIDE TO THE UNIVERSE


It really did feel like The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy with the entire, "This is the 5th model of The Matrix."

[Raoul Duke]

The most ridiculous thing in this fellas rant is the car chase similarity.....The chase in T2 was a semi VS a little motorbike and then a bigger motorbike, barely ANY similarity to that and Reloaded. There was then another chase in T2 with the helicopter and the SWAT car, which was pretty much NOTHING like Reloaded.

You need to stop nit picking every little thing dude.

[Ladanian]

I don't know what a lot of you are talking about, but the Matrix Reloaded was no good, no good at all. I agree that many movies borrow concepts, and even content from other successes, but its one thing to add to a movie from other sources, its quite another to make a movie from other peoples ideas. There was nothing original, and in my opinion very little entertainment in this movie. They seem to think that the public will be dim whited enough to be satisfied by a poor story line, and pathetic dialogue as long as there is more of that crazy slow motion fight crap that so many recent movies have been ripping off from the first Matrix. Judging by the comments I guess they were right. Call me old fashioned, but I like a movie that actually has a story to it that I can appreciate for more than pedantic violence. I really enjoyed the first movie, and I did have certain expectations, but I don't think they were unrealistic, I mean c'mon, you give me four years and I'm sure I could think up a more entertaining script. That was what made the first movie so great, they actually thought the ideas through, and most things made sense. What, Neo is a product of the remainder of some equation that a super computer couldn't figure out how to get rid of? Please, as a mathematician, that makes no sense, but no doubt there is a very good explanation to be revealed in the Matrix: Episode Three. As Al would say, 'What a Piece of Chit'

[JustinKing665]

Oh God dude. I agree with Doc and Clarkie. Everything you said can be traced back to older movies. You act like Matrix Reloaded is the only movie in a long time to feature someone flying or having a chase sequence. It seems to me you went into it looking for things to nit-pick on it about. Do you do this going into every movie you see? Because if you do, then you'll hardly enjoy any of it.

[quoth_the_raven]

You mean movies...arent....always..brand new....ideas....lovingly slaved over by the lovely, non-financially obsessed people in hollywood?

welcome to 2003.

:D:D

[JCPhoenix]

SPOILERS
3
2
1
matrix reloaded also ripped off existenZ with its matrix within a matrix "twist" (zion being part of the matrix thing...) (tho not stated out in the movie, it's hinted...tho admittedly there are other possibilities, but this is the most likely one)

[Scarface98.9]

You're absolutely fucking right, Thai Fighter, The Matrix Reloaded totally ripped off Empire Strikes Back because it's the second movie in a trilogy! The audacity of those fucking filmmakers :rolleyes:

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Ladanian
What, Neo is a product of the remainder of some equation that a super computer couldn't figure out how to get rid of? Please, as a mathematician, that makes no sense



Okay THAI fighter, since you are a mathematician, you should be able to explain why it doesn't make any sense.

Convince me that I didn't understand the movie.

[Strider]

THAI fighter, your rant is just plain ludicrous. I don't think "The Matrix Reloaded" was a "rip-off" of any of the films you mentioned. Don't you understand, man, films constantly borrow similarities of other films! At the very least, instead of calling "The Matrix Reloaded" a "rip-off", you should have called it an "homage"... if you would've done that, your rant would make sense.

Honestly, if you, THAI fighter, are going to have that kind of "nit-picky" attitude.... I can gurantee, you will never enjoy one single movie for the rest of your life. So, if you wish not to change, then stop watching movies.

Strider

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by JCPhoenix
SPOILERS
3
2
1
matrix reloaded also ripped off existenZ with its matrix within a matrix "twist" (zion being part of the matrix thing...) (tho not stated out in the movie, it's hinted...tho admittedly there are other possibilities, but this is the most likely one)

RE: Have you seen 13th Floor? It has exactly the same twist as well, and it came out at the same time as Existenz and Matrix. And it's based on a book.

So who copied who?

[JCPhoenix]

SPOILERS
3
2
1
Originally posted by Tuukka
RE: Have you seen 13th Floor? It has exactly the same twist as well, and it came out at the same time as Existenz and Matrix. And it's based on a book.

So who copied who?

yes i have seen 13th floor as well :p...i was gonna mention it (i did mention it i think in my matrix reloaded review in the current movie section) but i thought existenZ showed it a bit more obviously...(tho ur right, 13th floor of course he comes out and finds that the world he lives in isn't real when he thought that just the game wasn't real :p)

but the thing about 13th floor now that u mention it is that they actually show the "real" world at the end, unlike existenZ or the others...i wonder if matrix reloaded will do that?

but anyway, regardless, it still proves a point: that matrix reloaded is taking this twist directly from somewhere else at the very least, since it is the newest of all these movies/books to come out...not that i'm complaining, i think it's an interesting idea that if done well (i didn't consider 13th floor or existenZ to have done it very well) can be very interesting..which is why i'm excited for revolutions despite my indifference to reloaded.

[Tuukka]

But then again, the whole Matrix storyline was reportedly made up by the Wachowski brothers before they even made Bound.

Matrix was always intended to be a trilogy, it was just a question if the first film would make enough money. I recall that they even did Bound just in order to prove themselves, Matrix trilogy was the thing they wanted to right from the start.

But having read quite a lot of sci-fi in my lifetime, I wouldn't call either Matrix, Existenz or 13th Floor particularly original movies by their concept. It's all been done before many times, in literature.

[Cunning Visions]

Originally posted by Scarface98.9
You're absolutely fucking right, Thai Fighter, The Matrix Reloaded totally ripped off Empire Strikes Back because it's the second movie in a trilogy! The audacity of those fucking filmmakers :rolleyes:

Agreed Scarface...George Lucas must be spinning in his grave!! :p

This is pretty sad. I'll admit some things in Reloaded seemed familiar, but come on! The whole "Reeves"angle..what the hell was that? I'm sorry but as much as I like T2 the chase scene is NOTHING compared to Reloadeds chase. Not once did T2 ever pop in my head. Everyones guilty of nitpicking once in awhile, but is it me or is it starting to go overboard? "The Burly Brawl looked fake"... "The Hulk looks like Shrek with muscles"... "The turtle in Finding Nemo looks CGI" Grrrrr

[Ladanian]

Ok BubbaStrangeLove, so you couldn't figure out what I was saying? Through series analysis, discrete or otherwise, any number including trancendental numbers (like pi) can be reduced to expressions which can then be incorporated into the equation satisfying a discrete ansewr even though it may have an infinit number of terms, aka. you can always take care of something as simple as a remainder. You know, its just a movie its not like it matters, and its quite clear that that point is lost on some people. Math Rules!

[the movie guy]

I had a problem with the first Matrix being too similar to Dark City, Total Recall and The Crow (some of the style), but at no time in the sequel did I think scenes were ripping off other movies. (Except for when Agent Smith walks towards Neo and the crows flew into the air in slo-mo. That was SOOO 'The Crow', but I didn't care.) THAI Fighter is being completely silly.

[quoth_the_raven]

Originally posted by Ladanian
Ok BubbaStrangeLove, so you couldn't figure out what I was saying? Through series analysis, discrete or otherwise, any number including trancendental numbers (like pi) can be reduced to expressions which can then be incorporated into the equation satisfying a discrete ansewr even though it may have an infinit number of terms, aka. you can always take care of something as simple as a remainder. You know, its just a movie its not like it matters, and its quite clear that that point is lost on some people. Math Rules!



oh god, i am glad i did law and not the maths degree i had in mind....;)

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Ladanian
You know, its just a movie its not like it matters, and its quite clear that that point is lost on some people. Math Rules!



Well, no. The reason I mentioned it is because you stated it as a reason that it had a "poor story line", then you said that this would slip past "dim whited" audience members.

I agree it doesn't really matter, hence my inquiry.


Through series analysis, discrete or otherwise, any number including trancendental numbers (like pi) can be reduced to expressions which can then be incorporated into the equation satisfying a discrete ansewr even though it may have an infinit number of terms, aka. you can always take care of something as simple as a remainder.



What you are touching on was also a plot device in SUPERMAN 3 and OFFICE SPACE.

The Matrix is a computer program written by man. It is limited, and if man had never figured in something like the human emotion into the equation, then the computer wouldn't know what to do with it.

That seemed pretty obvious.

What seemed less obvious, and what us math-minded people may have gotten a kick out of, is that this concept holds alot of basis in quantum theorems, which as you know are responsible for you and I being able to sit here and communicate like this.

So yes, in the most basic sense, that idea is implausable, but if you consider in more factors, like the pretty blatant points about free-will in the movie, you'll probably get a bigger kick out of it.

If not, I doubt many people around here will think that you are dim witted.

[Cunning Visions]

I'm dim witted :confused: I'll go play with my blocks while sitting in the short bus. Seriously though The both of you make good and valid points. Bubbas references to the similarities of the plot devices in Superman 3,Office Space and Reloaded was great man :D I wish I could elaborate more efficiently..but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. I don't want to embarrass myself any further.

[APzombie]

very far fetched if you ask me...

[Doc Holliday]

We are just a bunch of dim witted morons. The Matrix Reloaded ripped off everything from other movies. :rolleyes:

If Morpheus Zion Speech was a rip-off of Maximus' speech in Gladiator, then that speech was a rip-off of William Wallace's speech in Braveheart. But wait wasn't that then ripping off Luke Skywalkers speech in Star Wars. Hold on, Maybe that in turn was ripping off the speech by Charleston Heston in Ben Hur....shit I don't know...it could go on for ever. :D

Do you watch comedies and laugh at the same jokes that are rehashed time and time again in movies by Adam Sandler, the American Pie flicks. Come on Thai Fighter, just about everything you watch comes with inspiration from another movie. Maybe...just maybe they are paying homeage to such great movies. ;)

[MarkItZero]

I think you guys are being a little harsh on Thai Fighter. I just saw the Matrix Reloaded last night and I agree that there were several moments that seemed ripped straight from other movies.

Yes, yes, I know, all movies borrow from other movies. I understand that. However, it usually doesnt stand out to me as much as it did last night.

It is funny that I came here today and found this thread, because while at the theatre last night I was thinking about how much the movie reminded me of scenes from Terminator and Star Wars. I could list several examples, a couple of which Thai FIghter touched upon orginally as well as a few more he didnt.

That didnt necesarrily ruin the movie for me, and in fact in some ways I thought it was kind of cool, but I do agree with Thai Fighter when he says that the "borrowing" in this film was very blatant.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by MarkItZero
...the "borrowing" in this film was very blatant.




I think everything in the movie was too spelled out, and that may be the valid complaint. Tarrantino pretty blatantly borrows from lots of things, but he doesn't turn to the camera and tell you where he borrowed it from.

[Dafixer]

There are no new stories, only new ways of telling them.

Everything borrows from something. One can only write what one knows.


But Matrix borrowing from Empire Strikes Back. That one made me laugh. Because "at the end Neo was wounded like Luke was wounded at that end of Empire. . ." That was toooo funny.

By that leap in logic one could say Die Harder also ripped off Empire because at the end John McClain was wounded.

But one forgets how many Space Operahs and comics Star Wars ripped off. So that makes Matris Reloaded a rip-off of a rip-off of a rip-off. If you rip off a movie long enough, does it become another movie?

[bigred760]

Originally posted by THAI fighter
(SPOILERS THROUGHOUT)

Let's go over the evidence.

1) Neo deciding to pull a Christopher Reeve and choosing to use the Matrix as his personal homage to all the Superman movies. I honestly couldn't get over how the Wachowskis could suddenly decide bestow upon Neo the powers of flight, complete with flying cape and all. The fact that Neo would fly around with one arm extended forward was even more shameless, jocking the entire Superman routine. And we can't forget him flying in to save Trinity/Lois Lane to save the day at the end. Puhhhllease. Substituting one Reeves for another Reeve? This must be like th biggest inside joke of the movie.

2) Trinity and the gang deciding to completely jock the entire highway sequence from Terminator 2 and add a few more twists to it. Let's see. Motorcycle? Check. Speeding 18 wheelers? Check. Ensuing mayhem? Check. The whole highway chase scene was cut out of T2 and pasted back into the Matrix. While we're on the Arnold/Terminator vibe, the fact that Agent Smith and the rest of the agents could touch people and shape shift was also jocked straight out of T2. Does anyone remember our friend the T-1000? (aka Robert Patrick, the shape shifting evil liquid metal bad ass robot)

3) Morpheus' big speech on front of Zion, seemed like a bad hommage to either Russel Crowe's Maximus motivational speeches in Gladiator or that movie from the 80's featuring seventies gangs (you know, "Can you diiiiiiiiggggg it?"), whose name escapes me right now. The clothes and stuff of the characters in Zion echo shades of Mad Max too. The whole Zion rally sequence seemed like it grabbed a bunch of influences and threw them all together.

4) The Architect scene was basically a shameless borrowing of the "producer" notion that was found in the Truman Show with one man running the entire show in front of a room of monitors.

5) The biggest and shameless rip off of them all. I couldn't help but spend half the movie laughing my ass of at how the Matrix 2 decided to completely and unabashedly rip off the Star Wars trilogy. I don't know if anyone has picked up on this yet, but the whole council meeting scene REEKED of the galactic council meetings found in episodes 1 and 2. Hell, the old dude that Neo talked with in the engineering room seemed an awful like Palpatine. The fact that the Matrix is based on a group of underground rebels trying to overcome an evil opressive regime sure sounds an awful like the Rebellion fighting for their freedom over the Empire. The fact that Neo was also granted the power to telekinetically grab objects with his hands (the fight scene in the restaurant, where knives jumped into his open palms) sure seems an awful lot like something a Jedi could do. Zion itself seemed straight of any Star Wars movie, maybe even a little Coruscant like, circa episode 2.

5) How is it that nobody noticed that the ending of the Matrix 2 is EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING ENDING AS THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK? I apologize for swearing but sweet jesus, this is probably what pissed me off the most. The fact that the movie ends with Neo getting injured (hurt) and that the whole group is saved by another ship (that comes out of nowhere) and that Neo is left to heal on an operating table as others look on is exactly what happens at the end of Empire. Remember? Luke is left injured after his big fight scene (hand cut off), is saved by a ship that comes out of nowhere (Millenium Falcon) and Luke if left ot heal in the Bacta tank as others look on. Wow, I had no idea the Wachowski brothers had the balls to completely rip off Star Wars this bad. George Lucas must still be waiting for his royalty checks in the mail.



SPOILERS!!!!
I think you're stretching a little bit with some of your rants.

1) I don't think the Wachowskis "suddenly" decided to bestow the power of flight since at the end of the first Matrix, Neo flies off. Plus, Superman flew with both arms in front, one arm in front, and no arms in front. I believe Neo does the same. How else is he supposed to fly - feet first? And Neo isn't wearing a cape, it's a full leather coat. It flaps too.

2) You're saying that the movie copied T2's highway scene by adding motorcycles, 18-wheelers, & mayhem. It's a highway chase scene, of course there's going to be mayhem. But, the Matrix's was a hell of a lot longer, it involved more characters (agents, ghosts, good guys, keymaster, etc.), there were more explosions, and a swordfight on top of an 18-wheeler - I don't remember any of that in T2. (I'm not taking away anything from T2, I love the movie - just spouting differences in the two.)

And, Agent Smith isn't morphing into anybody, he's making copies of himself by touching other people inside the Matrix. Plus, he wasn't even part of the chase scene.

3) Morpheus' speech seemed a lot longer than anything Maximus did in Gladiator. And I've seen those "types" of clothes in more movies than the Mad Max series - Beastmaster, Red Dawn, Red Sonja. Who knows? Maybe it's a new trend.

4) I didn't see any comparison. The architect was "manipulating" Neo like Ed Harris' character was running things in The Truman Show. But it is close, I'll give you that.

5) For starters, Star Wars is based on a Kurosawa movie called "Hidden Fortress," with borrowed scenes from The Searchers and other John Ford movies. And yes, Neo does have "Jedi-like" qualities, but he's the only one. Star Wars has many Jedis. And I didn't see any light sabres in the Matrix. Palpatine is the villain, the old guy in the Matrix is not.

6) (You have two 5's by the way) I don't see how Neo being in a coma, while nobody knows why, with a guy "infected" by Agent Smith also in a coma, has anything to do with the ending of Empire Strikes Back. Empire ends with Luke being given a new robotic hand and watching the Millenium Falcon fly off to try and save Han Solo. The endings may have some similarities, but I don't think it's a ripoff.

[bigred760]

Originally posted by THAI fighter
(SPOILERS THROUGHOUT)

Let's go over the evidence.

1) Neo deciding to pull a Christopher Reeve and choosing to use the Matrix as his personal homage to all the Superman movies. I honestly couldn't get over how the Wachowskis could suddenly decide bestow upon Neo the powers of flight, complete with flying cape and all. The fact that Neo would fly around with one arm extended forward was even more shameless, jocking the entire Superman routine. And we can't forget him flying in to save Trinity/Lois Lane to save the day at the end. Puhhhllease. Substituting one Reeves for another Reeve? This must be like th biggest inside joke of the movie.

2) Trinity and the gang deciding to completely jock the entire highway sequence from Terminator 2 and add a few more twists to it. Let's see. Motorcycle? Check. Speeding 18 wheelers? Check. Ensuing mayhem? Check. The whole highway chase scene was cut out of T2 and pasted back into the Matrix. While we're on the Arnold/Terminator vibe, the fact that Agent Smith and the rest of the agents could touch people and shape shift was also jocked straight out of T2. Does anyone remember our friend the T-1000? (aka Robert Patrick, the shape shifting evil liquid metal bad ass robot)

3) Morpheus' big speech on front of Zion, seemed like a bad hommage to either Russel Crowe's Maximus motivational speeches in Gladiator or that movie from the 80's featuring seventies gangs (you know, "Can you diiiiiiiiggggg it?"), whose name escapes me right now. The clothes and stuff of the characters in Zion echo shades of Mad Max too. The whole Zion rally sequence seemed like it grabbed a bunch of influences and threw them all together.

4) The Architect scene was basically a shameless borrowing of the "producer" notion that was found in the Truman Show with one man running the entire show in front of a room of monitors.

5) The biggest and shameless rip off of them all. I couldn't help but spend half the movie laughing my ass of at how the Matrix 2 decided to completely and unabashedly rip off the Star Wars trilogy. I don't know if anyone has picked up on this yet, but the whole council meeting scene REEKED of the galactic council meetings found in episodes 1 and 2. Hell, the old dude that Neo talked with in the engineering room seemed an awful like Palpatine. The fact that the Matrix is based on a group of underground rebels trying to overcome an evil opressive regime sure sounds an awful like the Rebellion fighting for their freedom over the Empire. The fact that Neo was also granted the power to telekinetically grab objects with his hands (the fight scene in the restaurant, where knives jumped into his open palms) sure seems an awful lot like something a Jedi could do. Zion itself seemed straight of any Star Wars movie, maybe even a little Coruscant like, circa episode 2.

5) How is it that nobody noticed that the ending of the Matrix 2 is EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING ENDING AS THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK? I apologize for swearing but sweet jesus, this is probably what pissed me off the most. The fact that the movie ends with Neo getting injured (hurt) and that the whole group is saved by another ship (that comes out of nowhere) and that Neo is left to heal on an operating table as others look on is exactly what happens at the end of Empire. Remember? Luke is left injured after his big fight scene (hand cut off), is saved by a ship that comes out of nowhere (Millenium Falcon) and Luke if left ot heal in the Bacta tank as others look on. Wow, I had no idea the Wachowski brothers had the balls to completely rip off Star Wars this bad. George Lucas must still be waiting for his royalty checks in the mail.



SPOILERS!!!!
I think you're stretching a little bit with some of your rants.

1) I don't think the Wachowskis "suddenly" decided to bestow the power of flight since at the end of the first Matrix, Neo flies off. Plus, Superman flew with both arms in front, one arm in front, and no arms in front. I believe Neo does the same. How else is he supposed to fly - feet first? And Neo isn't wearing a cape, it's a full leather coat. It flaps too.

2) You're saying that the movie copied T2's highway scene by adding motorcycles, 18-wheelers, & mayhem. It's a highway chase scene, of course there's going to be mayhem. But, the Matrix's was a hell of a lot longer, it involved more characters (agents, ghosts, good guys, keymaster, etc.), there were more explosions, and a swordfight on top of an 18-wheeler - I don't remember any of that in T2. (I'm not taking away anything from T2, I love the movie - just spouting differences in the two.)

And, Agent Smith isn't morphing into anybody, he's making copies of himself by touching other people inside the Matrix. Plus, he wasn't even part of the chase scene.

3) Morpheus' speech seemed a lot longer than anything Maximus did in Gladiator. And I've seen those "types" of clothes in more movies than the Mad Max series - Beastmaster, Red Dawn, Red Sonja. Who knows? Maybe it's a new trend.

4) I didn't see any comparison. The architect was "manipulating" Neo like Ed Harris' character was running things in The Truman Show. But it is close, I'll give you that.

5) For starters, Star Wars is based on a Kurosawa movie called "Hidden Fortress," with borrowed scenes from The Searchers and other John Ford movies. And yes, Neo does have "Jedi-like" qualities, but he's the only one. Star Wars has many Jedis. And I didn't see any light sabres in the Matrix. Palpatine is the villain, the old guy in the Matrix is not.

6) (You have two 5's by the way) I don't see how Neo being in a coma, while nobody knows why, with a guy "infected" by Agent Smith also in a coma, has anything to do with the ending of Empire Strikes Back. Empire ends with Luke being given a new robotic hand and watching the Millenium Falcon fly off to try and save Han Solo. The endings may have some similarities, but I don't think it's a ripoff.

Even if your arguments are true, what's wrong with paying homage to movies like Star Wars, Gladiator, Superman, etc. The Wach. Bros. could've done worse. I mean, movies tend to rip off other movies all the time.
That's it for my rebuttal.

[bigred760]

I apologize for my thread being on there twice, I don't know what happened.

[boggie]

Spoilers.

I thought that the speech in Zion was very reminiscent(sp?) of St. Peter's mass on the rock, which, if I am right, added to the philosophical and religious undercurrents.

[Stansfield]

Originally posted by bigred760
SPOILERS!!!!
And yes, Neo does have "Jedi-like" qualities, but he's the only one. Star Wars has many Jedis.
I agree with everything you say. I think this point should be elaborated. Due to cause and effect, stated by the oracle and the merovingian, the future can be read, since everything starts from a cause and a chain reaction begins. Fate, if you will, is a result of this. A future which cannot be changed. In a world where every action is the result of complex mathematical algorithms, i think neo ought to have jedi-like powers. As opposed to jedi's, who can do the same thing........why? Because George Lucas says so. Of course, it's the writer that comes up with the ideas, and star wars would suck without it, but the this skill makes much more sense in the matrix. This is why I feel this comparison is rediculous. I don't think the matrix has 'borrowed' from anything other than phylisophical texts. Although morpheus' speech was a tad lame.

I'm sorry that is so long-winded, but i've slowly been turning into a fan-boy of the matrix over the last few days. It's very scary.

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by THAI fighter
(SPOILERS THROUGHOUT)

Alright kids, this is my first post on these boards and I feel compelled to put my thoughts to words after returning back from seeing the Matrix Reloaded. (I was going to post this in Matrix discussion but felt it deserved a rant on its own) First off, I was a very big fan of the original film and was eagerly and anxiously anticipating the second flick and went in with a very open mind, hoping to once again get my "mind blown". I left the theatre minutes ago, completely disappointed and saddened by how the sequel failed to capture the magic of the original. The movie was slow, plodding and filled with far too many scenes of endless monologues where characters proceded to blab and yak on about the meaning of causality and control. Yawn. What disturbed me worse was the fact that I spent the entire movie laughing (literally) with a buddy of mine at how the Matrix 2 shamelessly borrowed from other classic films.

Let's go over the evidence.

1) Neo deciding to pull a Christopher Reeve and choosing to use the Matrix as his personal homage to all the Superman movies. I honestly couldn't get over how the Wachowskis could suddenly decide bestow upon Neo the powers of flight, complete with flying cape and all. The fact that Neo would fly around with one arm extended forward was even more shameless, jocking the entire Superman routine. And we can't forget him flying in to save Trinity/Lois Lane to save the day at the end. Puhhhllease. Substituting one Reeves for another Reeve? This must be like th biggest inside joke of the movie.

2) Trinity and the gang deciding to completely jock the entire highway sequence from Terminator 2 and add a few more twists to it. Let's see. Motorcycle? Check. Speeding 18 wheelers? Check. Ensuing mayhem? Check. The whole highway chase scene was cut out of T2 and pasted back into the Matrix. While we're on the Arnold/Terminator vibe, the fact that Agent Smith and the rest of the agents could touch people and shape shift was also jocked straight out of T2. Does anyone remember our friend the T-1000? (aka Robert Patrick, the shape shifting evil liquid metal bad ass robot)

3) Morpheus' big speech on front of Zion, seemed like a bad hommage to either Russel Crowe's Maximus motivational speeches in Gladiator or that movie from the 80's featuring seventies gangs (you know, "Can you diiiiiiiiggggg it?"), whose name escapes me right now. The clothes and stuff of the characters in Zion echo shades of Mad Max too. The whole Zion rally sequence seemed like it grabbed a bunch of influences and threw them all together.

4) The Architect scene was basically a shameless borrowing of the "producer" notion that was found in the Truman Show with one man running the entire show in front of a room of monitors.

5) The biggest and shameless rip off of them all. I couldn't help but spend half the movie laughing my ass of at how the Matrix 2 decided to completely and unabashedly rip off the Star Wars trilogy. I don't know if anyone has picked up on this yet, but the whole council meeting scene REEKED of the galactic council meetings found in episodes 1 and 2. Hell, the old dude that Neo talked with in the engineering room seemed an awful like Palpatine. The fact that the Matrix is based on a group of underground rebels trying to overcome an evil opressive regime sure sounds an awful like the Rebellion fighting for their freedom over the Empire. The fact that Neo was also granted the power to telekinetically grab objects with his hands (the fight scene in the restaurant, where knives jumped into his open palms) sure seems an awful lot like something a Jedi could do. Zion itself seemed straight of any Star Wars movie, maybe even a little Coruscant like, circa episode 2.

5) How is it that nobody noticed that the ending of the Matrix 2 is EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING ENDING AS THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK? I apologize for swearing but sweet jesus, this is probably what pissed me off the most. The fact that the movie ends with Neo getting injured (hurt) and that the whole group is saved by another ship (that comes out of nowhere) and that Neo is left to heal on an operating table as others look on is exactly what happens at the end of Empire. Remember? Luke is left injured after his big fight scene (hand cut off), is saved by a ship that comes out of nowhere (Millenium Falcon) and Luke if left ot heal in the Bacta tank as others look on. Wow, I had no idea the Wachowski brothers had the balls to completely rip off Star Wars this bad. George Lucas must still be waiting for his royalty checks in the mail.


Whatever, this rant has gone on way too long but has anyone else noticed these really bad borrowings of creative inputs? I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts.

Rant over.

This is the weakest rant I've ever heard.

[Andrew Tom]

Originally posted by Cunning Visions
Agreed Scarface...George Lucas must be spinning in his grave!! :p



They finally buried him, huh? Thank god.

(Off-topic much?)

[Razorblade Smile]

What I find strange about this rant, is that the poster claimed to love the first Matrix movie. Based on the quality of standards that he seems to project, I cannot see how this can be.

After all, the first Matrix is just as derivative as he claims the second one to be.

Plot: A guy destined to be the Chosen One sets out to find a father figure who teaches him how to fight and harness cool super powers so that he can one day bring balance to the Force...uh...err...to the Matrix.

Not only has this plot line been done before but in the SAME bloody year!

How can you like one and think the other is unoriginal?

[JustinKing665]

You know, why don't we just stop making movies, writing books, telling stories altogether, that way noone can borrow or be influenced by any ideas from some other story. That should solve everyone's problem and then maybe, just maybe people will stop whining.

[Dignan]

Originally posted by Razorblade Smile
What I find strange about this rant, is that the poster claimed to love the first Matrix movie. Based on the quality of standards that he seems to project, I cannot see how this can be.

After all, the first Matrix is just as derivative as he claims the second one to be.

Plot: A guy destined to be the Chosen One sets out to find a father figure who teaches him how to fight and harness cool super powers so that he can one day bring balance to the Force...uh...err...to the Matrix.

Not only has this plot line been done before but in the SAME bloody year!

How can you like one and think the other is unoriginal?

I think Neo will finally bring balance to the force in Revolutions . Just watch. He will. Just wait.


:p

[TheJadedGamer]

Who cares? Didn't you watch that episode of South Park when Professor Chaos was trying to take over the world, but the Simpsons did everything already?

And in the next Matrix, it will rip off Harry Potter in which Neo goes to magic school to learn how to shoot lighting bolts out of his ass, then meet up with a group of feild mice who live in a monastary, after than ole Neo will try to solve a murder mystery with Edgar Allen Poe.