John Woo's Hong Kong Films

[Deckard]

Figured we should have thread going about one of the most influential directors of the last 20 years and his films from his homeland. Lets discuss and list some of his sub titled elights and what they have to offer.

The man is an action specialitst who iMO has fallen from grace since his cross continent move to the US. Films like Windtalkers, MI2, Broken Arrow and Hard Target have been well below par for this superb visual stylist.

My favourites are all from his homeland, here are a few:

HARD BOILED
THE KILLER
BULLET IN THE HEAD
A BETTER TOMORROW trilogy
ONCE A THIEF
RUN, TIGER, RUN.
TO HELL WITH THE DEVIL

Go nuts about the man and his subtitled films- love him or hate him, why??

[James Logan]

HARD BOILED, THE KILLER and BULLET IN THE HEAD are the three movies that first convinced me John Woo is pure genius.

[vastlynne]

I'm going to be watching A better tomorrow soon. I have yet to see any John Woo flicks yet (:eek:) so i'm really looking forward to it. Any recommendation on his other films for a John Woo newbie?

[bob]

I rented The Killer and Hard Boiled together about two years ago. I remember I liked The Killer a lot and thought Hard Boiled was mediocre, but I watched the Killer first. If the order had been reversed, I might love Hard Boiled instead. Either way, the films are too similar.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by bob
I rented The Killer and Hard Boiled together about two years ago. I remember I liked The Killer a lot and thought Hard Boiled was mediocre, but I watched the Killer first. If the order had been reversed, I might love Hard Boiled instead. Either way, the films are too similar.

They're not really that similar, except in some stylistic similarities and themes of brotherhood, loyalty and honor (MUCH better expressed in The Killer, though Hard-Boiled has a great great performance by Tony Leung).

BTW, John Woo didn't have any impact on A Better Tomorrow 3. It was directed by former Woo friend (they split ways) Tsui Hark, who has done some great movies but really fucked up part 3, which would be more accurately part 0 as it is a prequel. Watch for a cameo by Tsui Hark as the bored judge watching Leslie Cheung's girlfriend play chello in the first movie. John Woo also plays a role in the first, as the detective following Mark Gor/Lee.

I've seen all of John Woo's movies after Heroes Shed No Tears (and I got a good deal on Just Heroes, which is mostly directed by Woo).

My ordering, which changes once in a while.

A Better Tomorrow - 10/10
Bullet in the Head - 9/10
The Killer - 9/10
A Better Tomorrow 2 - 8/10
Once a Thief - 8/10
Hard-Boiled (or, as I prefer, Hothanded God of Cops)- 8/10
Heroes Shed No Tears - 7/10
Just Heroes - 6/10 (and I'm being generous with that, I gave it an extra point for a very amusing A Better Tomorrow flowerpot reference in the climax).

His American films are disappointing, at best.

Face/Off - 8/10
Broken Arrow -7/10
Hard Target - 7/10
Windtalkers - 5/10
Mission: Impossible 2 - 5/10
Blackjack - 5/10

[Damned Martian]

I saw half of The Killer, and thought it was near mediocre...

Hard Boiled was entertaining and stylish, but hadn't much interest for me in plot or characters. 6.5/10

A Bullet in the Head was clearly his best H-K movie, cause it had a powerful story behind it, with more than just action, and that's why the last 10 minutes were near to fuck the rest of the movie. Without that (*ATTENTION SPOILER*it should have stopped when he leaves the skull on the table IMO *END OF SPOILER*), and rewriting the too cheesy beginning, it would have been a masterpiece. With that, it's just a very good movie. 8/10

Haven't seen more of his HK films.

[Tuukka]

I think Hard Boiled is VERY much overrated. Yes, it has good performances and shows enourmous directorial skill from Woo, but the script is seriously lacking. It's dull, cliched and repetitive. 6/10.

Also, I think Face Off is easily one of Woo's best movies. He made a lot of rubbish in Hong Kong as well, and his best movies I have seen are Killer (8/10), Bullet In The Head (7/10) and Face Off (8/10). Out of his important movies, I still haven't seen A Better Tomorrow 1 & 2.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by Tuukka
I think Hard Boiled is VERY much overrated. Yes, it has good performances and shows enourmous directorial skill from Woo, but the script is seriously lacking. It's dull, cliched and repetitive. 6/10.

Also, I think Face Off is easily one of Woo's best movies. He made a lot of rubbish in Hong Kong as well, and his best movies I have seen are Killer (8/10), Bullet In The Head (7/10) and Face Off (8/10). Out of his important movies, I still haven't seen A Better Tomorrow 1 & 2.

Which of his Hong Kong movies do you consider rubbish? I haven't seen any of his slapstick comedies or period kung fu epics, but I would assume some of them are pretty bad. Hard-Boiled I'd agree is overrated. But most of the action is masterful (though, and this is just about the only time I've ever said it, there is too much of it and it does get repetetive). It's by far his most Western of his HK movies, and I think that is a big part of the reason it isn't as good as some of his other HK flicks. I still find it very enjoyable, on the level of stupid but well-done American action movies. Should of been trimmed in a few areas, IMO.

damned martian - there are actually THREE known endings for Bullet in the Head. I've only seen the one, but I've read about the others..

SPOILERS - HIGHLIGHT TO READ

*In one ending, it goes black after he leaves, and you hear a single gunshot. This was used in some areas where they didn't like movies over a certain length. In the other ending, there is a very brief shootout in the office, and then it is over.*

Either of those endings is much superior, IMO, and it might be a 10/10 from me with either of em.

[Damned Martian]

Originally posted by Jim H
damned martian - there are actually THREE known endings for Bullet in the Head. I've only seen the one, but I've read about the others..

SPOILERS - HIGHLIGHT TO READ

*In one ending, it goes black after he leaves, and you hear a single gunshot. This was used in some areas where they didn't like movies over a certain length. In the other ending, there is a very brief shootout in the office, and then it is over.*

Either of those endings is much superior, IMO, and it might be a 10/10 from me with either of em. Yeah, I also think they work better than the one which i've seen.

[pat00139]

John Woo's one of my favorite. His first movie I saw was Face/Off and was blown away. I've seen a bunch of his movies. Strike of Death/Hand of Death/Countdown to Kung Fu (whatever title you want to call it) was very nice although I preferred Last Hurrah for Chivalry, even though the former had Jackie Chan in it.

His best are by far his later HK flicks. Take a guess at what I think his best flick is? Hard Boiled and Bullet in the Head are both incredible, Hard Boiled being so much fun and Bullet in the Head being hard to take.

I haven't seen anything before A Better Tomorrow except those two movies mentioned above and I've seen everything since except Just Heroes (can't find it!). I haven't found a HK movie of his I didn't love.

His American movies need work. His best is Face/Off. Windtalkers and MI2 I found were good. His others aren't that impressive. Hopefully Paycheck and Land of Freedom will be good.

[Ren Hoek]

I love John Woo's HK flicks... BULLET IN THE HEAD (9/10) is my favourite Woo, closely followed by A BETTER TOMORROW (8/10) and THE KILLER (9/10). Contrary to the popular opinion, I don't have a problem with the somehow tacked-on ending of BULLET though I can understand why most people don't like it. It's definitely a wee bit (*coughunderstatementcough*) over-the-top and probably not the most appropriate ending for a war drama.

HARD-BOILED (7/10) is a great thrill ride but the action scenes feel more like a John Woo's Greatest Hits package, wrapped up in a substandard plot.

His worst HK movies I've seen are HEROES SHED NO TEARS (5/10... sick stuff!) and ONCE A THIEF (6/10). However, they're still miles ahead of his Hollywood oeuvre in terms of quality (the criminally underappreciated HARD TARGET being a notable exception).

[Buc_Nonsense]

I've seen once a thief. not a bad movie.

[Cronos]

Mission: Impossible II - 8/10
Face/Off - 9/10
Broken Arrow - 8.5/10
Hard Target - 9/10
Hard-Boiled - 10/10
The Killer - 10/10
A Better Tomorrow - 8/10

[Jim H]

His worst HK movies I've seen are HEROES SHED NO TEARS (5/10... sick stuff!) and ONCE A THIEF (6/10). However, they're still miles ahead of his Hollywood oeuvre in terms of quality (the criminally underappreciated HARD TARGET being a notable exception).

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[jackcool]

Originally posted by Buc_Nonsense
I've seen once a thief. not a bad movie.

Yeah, that one is pretty good. It's pretty light-hearted for a John Woo movie

[normanbatesjr]

Originally posted by Jim H
My ordering, which changes once in a while.

A Better Tomorrow - 10/10
Bullet in the Head - 9/10
The Killer - 9/10
A Better Tomorrow 2 - 8/10
Once a Thief - 8/10
Hard-Boiled (or, as I prefer, Hothanded God of Cops)- 8/10
Heroes Shed No Tears - 7/10
Just Heroes - 6/10 (and I'm being generous with that, I gave it an extra point for a very amusing A Better Tomorrow flowerpot reference in the climax).

His American films are disappointing, at best.

Face/Off - 8/10
Broken Arrow -7/10
Hard Target - 7/10
Windtalkers - 5/10
Mission: Impossible 2 - 5/10
Blackjack - 5/10

Hard Boiled-8/10 (I definately agree)
The Killer-8/10
Once A Theif-6/10 (I saw the TV movie version on Fox)
Face/Off-9/10 (Kicked major ass)
Broken Arrow- 8/10
Hard Target-8/10 (Considering it was a Jean Claude Van Damme movie, it was really good)
Windtalkers-8/10 (I really liked this one. )
MI2-7/10 (I still feel that it was better than people give it credit for.)

[Jim H]

Originally posted by normanbatesjr
Hard Boiled-8/10 (I definately agree)
The Killer-8/10
Once A Theif-6/10 (I saw the TV movie version on Fox)
Face/Off-9/10 (Kicked major ass)
Broken Arrow- 8/10
Hard Target-8/10 (Considering it was a Jean Claude Van Damme movie, it was really good)
Windtalkers-8/10 (I really liked this one. )
MI2-7/10 (I still feel that it was better than people give it credit for.)

I didn't even rate the TV movie version, forgot about it, but I'd concur with your 6/10. The Chinese version is a much superior film across the board.

[therealjohng]

I'm gonna say one thing and one thing only: HARD-BOILED is THEE greatest action movie of all time from any continent.

[Hannibal21]

I've never been too keen on several Hong Kong films, but John Woo's movies kick ass! Especially THE KILLER (9/10), A BETTER TOMORROW (8/10) and BULLET IN THE HEAD (9/10).

[The 8 Ball]

I feel that A Better Tomorrow and The Killer are two of the greatest films that have come out of Hong Kong besides Wong Kar-Wai's work.

The Killer is the superior film by far. But A Better Tomorrow is great on it's own right. It features start-making performances by the great Chow Yun-Fat and Leslie Cheung, who I think was one of the best actors of his time

[lalex81]

I think "A bullet in the head" and "Face/off" are his best movies by far, almost 10/10... I like "The Killer" but I think it´s a bit overrated, I think it´s at the same level of "Hard Boiled", both 8/10.

I felt dissapointed with "M:I-2", wouldn´t give it more than 5/10.

And I think "Once Upon a Thief" is almost bad, both original and american remake.

But his worst movie for me has to be "Black Jack"; bad acting, action sequences copied from his previous HK movies, and bad story.

[the movie guy]

John Woo's lame. His style's too flashy and redundant.

I've seen:

Bullet in the Head - 8/10 (his only good movie)

Hard Boiled - 5.5/10

The Killer - 5/10

Face/Off - 6/10

Broken Arrow -5/10

Hard Target - 3/10

Mission: Impossible 2 - 7/10 (and mainly just because of Tom Cruise)

[APzombie]

John Woo flicks are soon becoming personal favorites, though i've only seen Hard Boiled and The Killer. I really want to check out Bullet in the Head.

[Hot-Handed Fury]

Bullet in the Head is actually one of my least favorite John Woo HK flicks.

I've watched A Better Tomorrow (8/10), The Killer (9/10), and Hard-Boiled(9/10), more times than I probably should have....since there are so many other great films out there. But, I love those 3 so much!

To whoever said Woo's style is redundant: It definitely seems that way now, since just about EVERY action film out there has ripped off his style. I remember watching The Killer and Hard BOiled more than 10 years ago and being blown away by how awesome Woo's style was.

Woo and Chow Yun-Fat were like the Scorses and DeNiro of Hong Kong. Its just too bad that John Woo's american movies have all sucked(except Face/Off). Its a shame that Woo hasn't directed Chow in over 10 years. They need to get back together and make another good movie!!!

At least Tsui Hark has made something good recently, with Time and Tide; and Tsui Hark is one of the most inconsistent directors I've seen. I meam, Dennis Rodman & Jean CLaude Van Damme in DOuble Team??!? LOL.

Oh well...

[Jim H]

Woo and Chow Yun-Fat were like the Scorses and DeNiro of Hong Kong. Its just too bad that John Woo's american movies have all sucked(except Face/Off). Its a shame that Woo hasn't directed Chow in over 10 years. They need to get back together and make another good movie!!!

Land of Destiny (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0338184/)

[Asokan]

My first John Woo flick was the mighty good A BETTER TOMORROW (1986) and my last the ridiculously crap HEROES SHED NO TEARS (1986). That's a full cycle, I guess.

His films in order of release:
HAND OF DEATH (1975), Countdown in Kung Fu or Shaolin Men or whatever else the title, this is one crappy kung fu flick with one, two decent hand-to-hand combats and appearances by Sammo Hung and Jackie Chan. Yeah, I'm not kidding. Jackie Chan!

HEROES SHED NO TEARS (1986) I've seen just recently and is probably his worst flick with needlessly gruesome death scenes, misplaced comedy and unbearable father-son-sentiments. I HATED the kid in the movie and wished he had died like everyone else in it. Some laughable sex scenes and stupid white characters.

A BETTER TOMORROW (1986) The first film with his unique visual style and a captivating story of friendship, trust, betrayal and everything else you might associate with a gangster and his cop brother's attempts to get rid of the former's past. Terrific performances all around and Chow Yun-Fat in his starmaking turn.

A BETTER TOMORROW II (1987) A needless sequel, made very watchable through highly imaginative bloodshedding and another terrific turn by Chow Yun-Fat. The finale is simply awesome.

THE KILLER (1989). His masterpiece, I guess. A gripping tale of a highly unlikely friendship between a cop and a killer, both superbly played. The action here is unrivalled and the final shoot-out is simply glorious, also for the religious angle it plays on. "Dumbo" and "Mickey Maus" are quintessential Woo characters and the high melodrama story is genuinely affecting.

JUST HEROES (1989) A more subdued, but nevertheless defining Woo flick with a GODFATHER-style family crime drama with self-reflexive elements (a character dismissing the coolness of A BETTER TOMORROW's shootouts by showing the aftermath of killing). A bit heavy-handed and the story sometimes drags, but essential for Woo completists.

BULLET IN THE HEAD (1990) A bit overrated this one, especially by Woo himself. A passionate tale of friendship between three boys who accidentally went to war (a lot of moments resemble THE DEER HUNTER, 1978), this is very well-told and with many kinetic action sequences along the way. But the characters are painfully one-dimensional and the story loses its focus towards the end. Still, for the visuals alone a must-see.

ONCE A THIEF (1990) Hated by some Woo afficianados, but I quite enjoyed this sloppy, jokey action comedy that has some good action scenes and Chow Yun-Fat's charm to balance the weak story and other narrative and characterisation flaws.

HARD-BOILED (1992) Thrilled by the first viewing, but subsequent viewings reveal a rather conventional cop thriller with the most astonishing action sequences ever. The last half-an-hour in the hospital is action movie heaven. Chow Yun-Fat is GOD!

Well, that's it for his HK features. Of the American features I only really liked FACE/OFF (1997) and enjoyed the showmanship of HARD TARGET (1993). Everything else simply sucked.

Looking forward to see: LAST HURRAH FOR CHIVALRY (1978) and LAND OF DESTINY (2004). PAYCHECK (2003), judging from the trailer, is doomed to be underwhelming. Thanks, Affleck!

[normanbatesjr]

Originally posted by Jim H
Land of Destiny (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0338184/)

Damn, Cage and Chow in the same flick! Awesome!

[Jim H]

Originally posted by normanbatesjr
Damn, Cage and Chow in the same flick! Awesome!

I'm really curious how this is gonna play out, actually. Are there going to be gunfights? Woo's take on western gunfights could be interesting. I just hope this isn't a colossal failure like Windtalkers.

[Cronos]

Hard Boiled and The Killer are two of my favourite films, loads of gun fights, great action scenes, excellent acting and great stories

10/10 for both