Fight Club. Too picky or too pointeless?

[stefanb]

I don't get Fight Club. Sorry, I don't. I understand the plot, and the characters make sense completely, but why do people like this film? Is there anyone out there thinking about all the loop holes. I'm almost willing to watch it again based on how much evetyone else loves the film, but there's a few questions I'd like an intelligent answer to first.

1. How are we to believe they're the same person physically, if Marla (played by Helena Bonham Carter) treats each of them differently? Seriously. Think about it... She's nailing one all night, and then is a bitch to the other personality in the morning.

2. Scenes that REQUIRED TWO PEOPLE. No, I'm not talking about the car accident scene (which was brilliant and made perfect sense later). Also, not the first fight scene that was explained clearly at the end. Take for instance the scene where they're stealing the fat from the surgery clinic. Was he passing them over the fence to himself? Who was catching them? Was he crawling over each time? I'm confused. Also, he can't sleep downstairs because he's annoyed by listening to himself have sex upstairs?

3. The final scene, if he KNOWS COMPLETELY that Brad Pitt's character is his own alter ego, how exactly do we follow the logic that shooting yourself in the head will kill your alter ego? Just like that? Putting a bullet through the side of his own head is what it takes for him to mentally believe that Tyler Durden is no more? Hell, logically, anything HE can survive, can't kill Tyler Durden off. He said himself while trying to disarm the bomb: "If you know, I must know". Well, the same logic applies to life and death... "If I live, you must live".

Anyone take a stab at an intelligent answer to any of those three, and I might consider not thinking the movie was so terrible. I'd also like to know if anyone agree's with me on that, or am I just too damned picky here? Frankly I think it's too big of a loop hole to over look.

[QUENTIN]

Oh stef I had been agreeing with you up until now but Fight Club is a GREAT movie.As for your questions Marla was reacting to their two different personalities when Tyler is fucking her, and when Ed Norton is talking to her the reason sometimes Marla gets bitchy with Norton is Norton is doing what Tyler told him to do get her out of the house and never talk about me. The fat scene had me thinking after I saw the movie the second time (now I've seen it about 20) and maybe someone else can answer it but to me I guess it's just a small plot hole. As for the bullet thing Tyler does not exist in reality he is a figment of Norton's imagination so technically anything that has Norton believe Tyler is dead makes Tyler dead(kind of like a drastic placebo effect). You should watch it again just to give it another try it's a great movie one of the greatest I've ever seen.

[stefanb]

1. Well, that's the answer I was expecting, and 1/2 thinking myself, but still. Going on that logic, she probably should be a little more angry when he nails her all night and boots her ass out the door in the morning. Then, she'll come on back for more later. If I'm wrong, show me a woman like that (who's not quite so psycho) and I'll be a happy guy.


2. I don't expect a good answer on this one from anyone. My suggestion would have been (if I were in the production crew) to have them both run up and either jump the fence together, or break the lock with a hammer, etc etc etc. They need to create an instance that can tell the story and continue to avoid showing anything that requires team-work. The car accident scene was absolutly brilliant once you've seen the ending and been let in on the secret. More stuff like that would have been good.


3. I'm willing to accept that one. I suppose the point is not to convince the audience that he doesn't exist, but more so to convince the character, and I can't really say what would convince him, so it's safe to believe whatever they show us could conceivably work. I still think they should have left out the line "If you know, I must know". It shows WAY TOO DEEPLY his understanding that they are the same person with the same mind. Going on that logic, it's harder to swollow the idea he actually believes he can kill one and not the other by shooting himself.


Every movie is going to have it's loop-holes. The one's that annoy me are the avoidable ones like #2. It makes you scream 'bull-shit', and it didn't need to be in there. 1 and 3 are not as big a problem for me because it would be very hard to make the movie differently. AKA - If it's not good the way it is, what would be better (and not give away any hints about the ending)? I think they did the best possible work around, but #2 is just unacceptable in a movie like this. Likewise, I don't like the scene where he can't sleep downstairs while he's making all the noise upstairs. If one personality is 'awake' (for lack of a better word), I don't see how it could be in a different room being annoyed by noise made by the first personality. Probably an unavoidable loop-hole, but I think it could have been done better with those types of scenes.

[Tuukka]

Quentin already made some of the same points, but anyway:

Marla doesn't react differently to Tyler's two personalities, It's the two Tyler's who react differently to her. She is often confused because Tyler is acting really weird towards her.

And there are plenty of women who act like Marla. There are plenty of women who get beaten three times a week and still they come back. So that's hardly a plothole.

In the end Tyler tries to kill himself. His not trying to kill his alter ego, but them both. There are many reported cases, when people have shot themselves in the head and survived. Does pretty bad damage to your face, thought. So there is a moment when he pulls the trigger, the bullet starts off and he thinks: I'M DEAD. I guess that's the moment when the other Tyler dies. That's only my theory, but it makes sense, doesn't it?

Quentin's theory is slighly different, but if I remember correctly, he has read the book. I haven't.

As for the scenes having two people. The main character spends most of his life in half sleep. So when Tyler is having sex with Marla, his other personality thinks he is downstairs living his normal half-life. The other personality doesn't DO anything. He just walks around, lays in the bed and listens to the sounds of love making.

I agree with Quentin, that you should see the film again. It's actually very logical. I have seen the film twice and the fat scene didn't annoy me much. If there were plotholes, they were quite small ones. I also think this is one of the greatest films ever made, so thumbs up for quentin.

[dysdaemonist]

to answer your four original points to the best of my knowledge, in hopes that you reconsider a really great film:

1. We only see Tyler interact with Marla a few times. The first instance is when he rescues her from the overdose, in which case he seems pretty neutral and unvocal (nothing that might arise a suspicion of personality difference yet alone -physical- difference). The other time he interacts with her, he is banging her. It's plausible that he never talks to her while he bangs her. So I mean, what kind of personality is she supposed to expect unless Tyler tells her all about his life while he wang-gangs her. If you are talking about the sexual differences between Tyler and Jack, such as when he checked her breasts for a lump, it could be said that all of the characters are weird enough to let that go by without a second thought. However, she actually -does- notice a difference between them. Notice that right before Jack discovers that he is Tyler, he calls Marla and asks about himself. Marla expresses quite clearly that she is confused because "one moment you f^ck me, then you ditch me..sometimes you love me and then you're a total a^hole."

2. The fat scene could just be thought of as Jack throwing the fat over the fence himself. Take a scene at the beginning where Jack hands a beer bottle to Tyler. The Beer Bottle remains intact in that scene and hence in Jack's imagination. When he goes back thinking about it, we clearly see Jack drop and break the Beer bottle. No scene truly required two people, and if it did, Jack only imagined the second role. The fact that he is not participating in the sex or even around the sex while it happens illustrates the extent of separation he has from Tyler. Considering that he has a severe case of dissociative identity disorder, coupled with insomnia, it's plausible that he juxtaposed two time periods that occured separately in his memory as taking place at the same time. Especially since sleep/dreaming is crucial for restoring attention and memory.

3. I agree with the previous about the placebo of making Tyler think he is killing himself. Though to me it seems wholly extreme to do so; if he could think the gun out of Tyler's hands, why couldn't he think Tyler dead? My proposition: he sticks the gun in his mouth and clears his thoughts completely, telling Tyler to listen carefully and that his eyes are open (to pay attention and look at what he's doing). Tyler is unaware that Jack is pressing the gun to the side of his mouth and when Jack pulls the trigger, believes himself dead. In my opinion though, it's actually folly to assume Tyler DOES completely die. Sure we see his corpse fall to the ground, but the movie doesn't continue on years later when Jack's mental disorders could conceivably plague him again. Just consider the ending the resolution to the current story, it can't span his whole life of insanity.

[TheNuke]

About the scene where they steal the fat from the lipo clinic, I think this is just like the first fight. Jack is doing everything but he sees his actions as two seperate people, himself and Tyler. so in reality jack is doing it all himself he imagines that 1/2 of his sctions are Tyler and the other half is himself when really there all him. That's my 2 cents.

[stefanb]

Well, for (2) I'd say the most conceivable thing is that he was just pitching them over the fence, and they were hitting the ground, not breaking open. So, the one that snagged the barbed wire and ripped really wasn't pouring on anybody at all. It couldn't have really been compared to the beer bottle you speak of because the beer bottle staying intact was not important to the story. The bags staying intact were because he needed them to make the soap with later at the house. If that's believable, I suppose we can over look where the "stretch" things in other places, and it does make it somewhat believable then... I'll Probably try renting it on DVD sometime. I've heard all the extras on the disc were really cool, so even if I don't really the movie the second time around it won't be a total loss. I just kinda sat there at the end the first time around saying, "yea....... right...... whatever...... <click>". Probably wasn't that bad. I remember absolutly hating "Gross Point Blank" the first time, then a friend of a friend rented it, and I was forced to sit through it again and absolutly loved it the second time around. Maybe this'll be the same. I think I'll give Pulp Fiction a second chance one of these days. I think I was too young to really understand the time-jumping around when it first came out and I saw it. It's lived on my 'hate' list ever since, but I think I'd probably really enjoy it now (I know this is like blasphemy in a movie forum, but I'm not a Tarantino fan to say the least).

[This message has been edited by stefanb (edited 06-23-2000).]

[QUENTIN]

You're right it is complete and total blasphemy Tarantino is a god.

[darkblue]

I think it usually takes 2 viewings to actually take in a movie. The same thing happened to me when I watched Grosse Pointe Blank the first time. But the second time I loved it and it's one of my all time favs. And when I saw Fight Club I didn't come out of the movie loving it totally. Cause I had read the book and was stuck on the book. But when I saw it again the next day, I loved it and it's my all time fav movie and the DVD rocks!!!!

[Kaku]

darkblue - wot did u find hard to understand with Grosse Pointe Blank??? Just curious

[darkblue]

Well I don't know if it was that I didn't understand Grosse Pointe Blank the first time, just that I was bored by it. But I gave it a second try because I love John Cusack and I liked the concept. The second time I actually listened to the character Martin Blank and everything came together and I realized it was a great movie, one of my favs.

[stefanb]

that is EXACTLY how I was with it. I came out thinking that it was a pointless movie. It didn't seem to build up to anything. The second time, I didn't even want to sit through it, but everyone I was with wanted to, so I just went along. I loved it. It has great dialog. Little scenes like in the restaurant where he orders an egg-white omlet, and the waitress keeps asking questions and basically arguing with him and he finally goes "Look, I don't want forensic debate over it. I just want the fucking protien." There's countless little bits of dialog like that that really make it a great movie. The way he always tells people he makes a living as a paid assissin. "Smart choice, it's a real growth industry." It's just a well written movie, and I was expecting something else the first time I saw it, so I didn't like it. Little scenes can make a movie great. In 'Reservior Dogs', that whole conversation at the beginning about leaving a tip for the waitress. It was my favorite part of that entire movie. Just well written scenes with intelligent dialog. I was really expecting more action the first time I saw Gross Point Blank. Once in your in the right mind-set for it, it's one of the best.


[This message has been edited by stefanb (edited 06-26-2000).]

[darkblue]

exactly...couldn't have said any better myself /ubb/smile.gif

[dj1200]

a couple people said they understood the car scene and it was brilliant, but i saw the movie twice and i still don't get it. can someone explain it to me? thanks.

-dj1200

[retardinAz]

I understand the whole thing about how he believes Tyler is dead, but why does Tyler have the whole directly in the back of his head, while Jack's was on his cheek?

[stefanb]

The car scene explained:

Well, basically, you have to first understand there's only one person in the front of the car. Hence, as he keeps shouting questions, the idiots in the back seat keep trying to answer with "the first rule of....." They don't realize he's not talking to them. As the argument continues with his alter ego, the driver (himself) lets go of the wheel. Both of them are so sure the other will grab the wheel. At the same time, they're the same person and neither has the slightest intention of grabbing the wheel. BAM! Big smash up. It seems rather normal (considering the story) until the last 5 minutes of the movie when it all goes together. It's a great scene (ie- brilliant) because it works either way. The scene makes sense with 2 people in the front of the car. It also makes sence with only 1 person in the front of the car. that's impressive considering the two guys in the back seat also had dialog of their own in there. I thought it was very well done. It reminded me a lot of the resaurant scene in The 6th Sense where Bruce Willis is talking to his wife and she's 'ignoring him', then she says 'happy anniversary' and walks out. It makes perfect sense if they're both there, but it's even more perfect with the idea that he's a ghost, and she can't see him at all.

[Tuukka]

So Stefanb, are you starting to like Fight Club a bit more now that you have seen it again?

[stefanb]

Actually, I still haven't gotten around to it yet. One of these days I'll head to down to Blockbuster and give it another shot.

[stefanb]

I am Stefan's new opinion of this flick. Well, it took me over a month, but I gave it another shot. I gotta hand it to the writers/director. It was played really really well as a movie living in two entirely different contexts. I enjoyed it much much more. On one hand, some of the alter-ego parts are still a tad hard to swallow, but it seemed way easier to believe this time around. On the other hand, I can't frickin believe how many dead give-aways there are on the ending. Especially when he's kicking his own ass in his bosses office and Ed Norton's narriation voice says "I thought of my first fight with Tyler". Then the whole "what's the noise in the basement" thing. It was a total give-away, but you'd never figure it out unless you already knew. thumbs up - very different opinion of this now...

Another difference is that this time, I skipped the VHS cheap-out and got the DVD so I could do the letterbox version and the whole over-blown Dolby Digital AC-3 sound. Pretty wide airplane crash scene. I'd easily say this was a very good movie... It just wasn't what I was expecting the first time. 8.5/10

[Tuukka]

I'm glad you liked it... I have many friends who didn't like the film first time around. Maybe I should encourage them to watch it again. Many people say that the film is better when they see it for the second time.

[This message has been edited by Tuukka (edited 08-18-2000).]