Viggo Mortensen: Bush is the Sauron of American politics

[Beeblebrox]

If you didn't already love the guy...

What do you think about the fact that many in the U.S. want part of the money we give Iraq to be considered a "loan" to be repaid with oil revenues?

[Vice President Dick] Cheney was speaking to a bunch of Republicans the other day, and he said that the U.S. taxpayer would not pay a single cent for the Iraq reconstruction. He said Iraqis would have to do that themselves. I think this is not only a lie -- one that he is quite conscious of telling -- but the statement itself, true or not, displays the horribly arrogant attitude of the current administration. We went into Iraq and made a friggin' mess for no reason at all -- well, for economic reasons that will benefit a lucky few -- and we've seriously undermined any kind of global community.

As many problems as the U.N. has had and as much hypocrisy as it has displayed, I would rather have them taking care of business over there as opposed to our government's piecemeal, self-serving efforts. To see the president of the United States and his administration admonish the U.N. and individual wealthy nations to pitch in with reconstruction now that such a mess has been made by the U.S. government -- which, as everyone knows, chose to deride and completely ignore the grave concerns expressed by the community of nations when invading Iraq in the first place -- displays a degree of arrogance that's as frightening as it is ridiculous. For the American citizen, real dialogue and balanced information about these matters has been largely choked off. In some way, I think that small companies or individuals that are willing to help draw a broader picture, offer more information and contrasting views, are especially valuable at this time. They're worth their weight in oil! [Laughs.]
...
Has the political volatility of our time hindered your ability to travel significantly? You've been to Cuba, and I know that you were thinking of going to Iraq before the war started.

Last year, I had made plans to visit Iraq and Israel. I was interested in seeing those places a little for myself, to take pictures, get to know people. Unfortunately, due to professional and personal obligations, I was unable to go. Later I read that Sean Penn and others were going. The mainstream media in the United States were highly critical of Sean for having gone to Iraq, calling him "Baghdad Sean" and the like. Those who run this country and hand-feed carefully crafted propaganda to the media will immediately and automatically label a show of genuine curiosity about the world and the role of the U.S. government in it -- which is how I view Sean's trip -- as unpatriotic.

How is it unpatriotic for him or anyone else to want to go to Iraq or any other place to educate themselves? How is it unpatriotic to want to go visit other people, other human beings, on this planet? By all means, go find out the truth for yourself, if you are fortunate enough to be able to! Bring back your observations and share them. Just having got back from Morocco where I was working on the movie "Hidalgo" in the Sahara desert, it seemed obvious by the end of September to anyone with eyes and ears that the invasion of Iraq was on a fast track. The business decision and arrangements had been made. The show had already been budgeted and planned, just like a movie.

The money had already been allocated and it was run -- to the detriment of the soldiers and Marines -- like a movie schedule. Generals and commanders were being dictated to by people like [Defense Secretary Donald] Rumsfeld, who don't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground with regard to military tactics and the requirements of leadership in the field. They were telling soldiers to advance a certain amount of kilometers a day, that it didn't matter if they outstripped their protection or supply lines. Which is idiotic, and had tragic consequences for the military personnel trying their best to do their duty in the desert.

It's about as stupid as sending English soldiers out to march around in the American woods in bright red uniforms during the Revolutionary War, only to be picked off by sharp-shooting colonials. We certainly shouldn't have gone there in the first place; there was no real reason to go, other than for the sake of the ego and greed of the Bush family and its friends. Of course, when a person points that out they are accused of defending Saddam Hussein and terrorism, of being a vile traitor.

They'll yell at you and tell you you're unpatriotic.

There's a well-promoted notion: "Why are you speaking about things you don't know anything about? You're not in politics, you're not a senator or a congressman. You have no right to speak about these things. You are an actor, or a teacher, a cab driver, a nurse, and therefore you have no right to worry about or express concern over the moral decision-making of the government you have elected to represent you." Which is absurd, of course.

Who do they think pays their salaries?

Exactly. People clearly have a right to express their opinion. Everyone has to work at staying open-minded no matter where they're coming from, and it's not easy when you're bombarded with calculated messages all the time. The current administration is, in many ways, perhaps the most powerful and effective public relations firm in the world. When I hear "Homeland Security," I immediately think of Vaterland. Red lights start flashing -- "Vaterland, Vaterland, Vaterland! Deutschland über Alles!" (Laughs.) You know what I mean?

Just the names, the words for some of these things, can be intimidating and distracting. The PATRIOT Act -- when you find out what that actually means, when you do a minimum of reading and research, you find you have not misjudged the intent behind such legislation when you instinctively felt alarm, were worried that the government was amplifying its control over our individual rights, our free will. The PATRIOT Act sounded scary, but turned out to be even scarier than its name. You can read about it, inform yourself. Most people don't. Most people don't even know what the Bill of Rights is, but they throw that phrase around. A lot of politicians and government officials don't even know what the Bill of Rights is about.
...
With regard to history, Bush's record with regard to foreign relations, the environment, the economy, concern for the average citizen ... I can't think of any accomplishment that will put him anywhere else than in last place historically as a president. Of all the presidents in the history of the United States, it's hard to think that there's anything other than public relations -- getting people to swallow huge lies so you can get your dirty work done -- that this president will be considered remarkable for.
...
What are your thoughts on Aragorn? He's always been one of the most compelling characters in Tolkien; at first he's this wild mountain man defending the weak and then he's revealed, like Shakespeare's Henry V, to be a king in hiding, ready to put the world back together.

He's well suited to be a leader, in part because of his interest in different cultures, his extensive travels throughout Middle Earth. He's always looking for what he has in common with other people. He is inclined to be compassionate, show mercy; that's the way he was raised, what he's been taught. And he's conscious of these having been the most positive qualities of the greatest of his ancestors. At the same time, he also knows that even they eventually showed weakness and were distracted by their own concerns or greed.

They succumbed to the temptations of the One Ring, ended up being destroyed or otherwise consumed by a desire to control the wills of others, and never followed through, never rose to their true potential as leaders. I think Aragorn has consistently had to work on the fact that he has so many doubts about himself: Why should he fare any better than these noble ancestors? Why should he be more exemplary in the most difficult moments? When you spend most of your life -- or in his case, since he has a long lifespan, around eight decades -- hiding and operating under assumed names, identities and dialects, it becomes a habit.

Except as a child, he's never really ever been truly able to be himself publicly, or even privately -- how would he even get used to that? When you get into that or any other habit, there's a resistance to or fear of changing; it's not a comfortable notion. To suddenly come out of the closet and say, "This is who I am" -- to no longer operate in hiding and keep leaving the scene like the Lone Ranger, to stand in one place undisguised and let others have access to you -- is in some ways more frightening than fighting any army. That inner conflict is an interesting thing to portray. It's not always something that's written, or can be fully written.

In the first two parts of the story, it's hopefully something the moviegoer learns or feels about Aragorn, without much explanation needed. For me as an actor, it was a privilege to play a character struggling with that kind of doubt. We probably all have similar problems and responsibilities, whether we're ready for them or not. The interesting question, in real life and in make-believe, is how you deal with the challenge, how you react to it.

[Dr Martin Luther Loomis]

Bruce Willis and the rest want you to get off your ass and visit Iraq before opening your mouth or forming an opinion on the situation, and when you actually do go over there, disgusting shit like this happens:

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
Last year, I had made plans to visit Iraq and Israel. I was interested in seeing those places a little for myself, to take pictures, get to know people. Unfortunately, due to professional and personal obligations, I was unable to go. Later I read that Sean Penn and others were going. The mainstream media in the United States were highly critical of Sean for having gone to Iraq, calling him "Baghdad Sean" and the like. Those who run this country and hand-feed carefully crafted propaganda to the media will immediately and automatically label a show of genuine curiosity about the world and the role of the U.S. government in it -- which is how I view Sean's trip -- as unpatriotic.

[Nate6]

Hmmm...I'm going to be super nice here and keep this thread open for a bit, but only if the main topic of conversation is Viggo Mortenson and not Dick Cheney or George W. Bush.

I think Viggo's a pretty smart guy, and he has many, many, many opinions. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any of them, but I admire him for not being afraid to share those opinions.

[Reigh Kaufman]

Viggo Mortensen is a VERY smart guy. I met him about two months ago, at the premiere of Billy Boyd's play after-show party and he was a charming, witty, intelligent man who enjoyed a drink and a chat. We talked a bit about the play (not too bad, Boyd is a good writer) and I told him that I was pleased to me him, and he introduced me to his son, a kid who looks scarily like Jack Osbourne. Me and my pal Kirsty had a great night (it was her that produced the play) and, apart from me jokingly saying that he should never have played Kowalski in the remake of Vanishing Point, never really mentioned his job, instead talking about America, travel, theatre, Scotland and the pros and cons of football, much to his great delight. I was waiting on Kirsty to send the pics, thinking I might start a thread, but so far she is, um, using them herself...

Anyway, can't say we really discussed Iraq, but he did keep us amused at a small hotel outside Edinburgh with some banter (in particular, mocking the accent and pretending to want to fight anyone that looked 'English')...top man, top night, top banana.

[Nate6]

That's a wicked story, Reigh, sounds like a really cool guy.

All of the ladies around here who are of the correct age are probably saddened to hear that Viggo's son looks like Jack Osbourne, though...

[Twisted Sister]

I'm in love. :)

[MarkItZero]

Did Viggo actually compare Bush to Sauron? Or was that just your own little addition Beeble?

Regardless, Viggo sounds intelligent in the interview and it is nice to know that there are some people who are actually using their brains.

[Scarface98.9]

I remember a Charlie Rose interview with him last year where he did compare Bush to Sauron, so maybe that's why it was included since it has been said before

[electriclite]

Well its nice to actually see an actor criticizing current events with more then just two sentences. Most of what he's said is pretty much right on the money, especially about traveling to other countries and getting out of the grasp of the isolationism that we unfortunately have in America.

It reminds me of Eddie Izzard's last stand up routine that was recorded in the U.S., "Circle" I believe it was called. He was going on a bit of rant about the Peace Process in Northern Ireland, but it was apparent that the audience wasn't getting it. Finally he just sighed and said to the audience, "Do you even know that there are other countries?":(





Oh, and about Viggo's kid. He's obviously gotten his looks from his mom, Exene Cervenka.;)

[MarkItZero]

I just read the Salon.com Article (http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/int/2003/10/24/viggo/index.html) that these quotes are from.

Its a pretty good article. Viggo really comes across as an intelligent and worldly guy. Kind of like Aragorn actually!

[Beeblebrox]

Cool story, Reigh. Viggo comes across as a guy into all kinds of creative endeavors who happened to find the most success in acting.

[JoBlo]

I've made my personal views of this man known many a time (here's my most recent drooling session: http://www.joblo.com/index.php?id=2728) but more props go out to him for, not only being afraid to talk the truth, but even more importantly (and this is a note to all other "celeb bigmouths"), KNOWING WHAT THE FUCK HE'S TALKING ABOUT!!!

And that's not necessarily because I agree with him, but because he's a smart man whose obviously done his homework and who doesn't dismiss this or that with a key line or sound bite. He actually understands the process. Viggo for governor!

Great man.

Even greater hair.

[Annie Hall]

I basically agree with Jo.

Great man.

Even greater hair.

Greatest accent.

[James Logan]

Viggo rocks. If I were gay, or a woman, I'd love this man.

[Lynn7]

He seems like he is well spoken and has given the issues a lot of thought- i disagree with almost everything he said (homeland security is more important than ever for our country's continued survival.)

The future of our country is not assured. There is a fine line that separates our strong country from total chaos. If terrorists ever really turned up full force here there would be total disintegration- just look at the horror of the entire country after just four hits on the same day (9-11) and also the way the DC sniper atttacks terrorized the country. Terrorism will be the meltdown of our country if we do not act decisively now.

Our country needs a president who is in full control and dedicated to the security of our country, not one who is trying to please the other countries who do not have our best interests at heart.

Viggo is a total cutie though and I like his acting a lot. I'm looking forward to his upcoming release.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Our country needs a president who is in full control and dedicated to the security of our country.

I'm sure Viggo agrees. He just wishes we actually had one.

[ANTBond007]

Wow, my mother always joked that she loved him and wanted him -- but if I showed her his particular views, and the fashion in which he expressed them, I think she would seriously be in love.

I agree with Mortensen on just about every issue he mentioned. What I find pleasantly surprising, however, is how well-spoken he is and how obvious it is that he knows his shit.

[Scarface98.9]

Joblo basically summarized everything I was gonna say better than I could

[MsMoviefan]

Was this just set up to promote anti-American philosophy, because it sure looks like it. Well, you guys, you got it posted.
Sooooooooo, Viggio said all those things, huh?
Well, I disagree, (except the part that VM "knows his SHIT')
The thing is, I do think we have to monitor our freedom every day. Everyday.
And, I do think that there will always be terrorists.
But.
If we ACT, against terrorism, then, then we are moving in the right direction. (no pun intended, "right"get it?)
Security of it's citizens is the president's job. It is in his job description. The president's job. President"s job.
Taking care of THIS country. this. country. is. his. job.
Like it or not. To act in our own best interest is a healthy choice. Ultimately, then, we will be in better position to help others.
By the way, does any actor have anything good to say about this country and will it get posted?

[Gregorious8]

I may not agree with him, but at least the man knows his stuff.

[Jon Lyrik]

I agree with him for the most part. Another reason to love the guy (non-sexually, of course).

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by Gregorious8
I may not agree with him, but at least the man knows his stuff.

Cool. It's nice to know that it is possible to disagree on what is or isn't good for America without sinking to the moronic level of labeling someone who disagrees with you as "anti-American" (a charge as cliched and uncreative as it is inaccurate).

We freedom loving Americans everywhere tip our hats to you (okay, yes, I'm speaking for Viggo).

[MsMoviefan]

Re viggio's remarks
He said the when (vp) Chaney was speaking to Republicans------that US would not pay for reconstruction of Iraq---- Iraquis would have to do it themselves etc. Viggio thinks that is a lie. Viggio thinks so.He did not say:
Not "he's wrong"! Not "there's no policy yet on payment for reconstructaion"!NO, right off, Viggio thinks its's a lie!
Viggio said US went into Iraq, made a mess,for no reason at all-or for economic reasons etc etc Really?
Well, Viggio, before the war, the CIA (CIA Director , George Tenet- who stood behind Powell in speech to UN)was sure Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them.(think about that !)
This was not a political judgment-it was agreeded by the intelligence services of Britain, France and other nations. (Read the Moscow Times, archives, right after US invaded Iraq-in which Putin said "everyone knows Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" but America should give inspectors more time.)

Why would Russia "know" Iraq had WOMD?

Viggio says we went into Iraq for no reason at all, or Bush's ego, or greed, well! That's his opinion.Never mind the facts.
But what if
with Bush given the "intelligence ' he was given, and
he had NOT acted? Think about that.( It is now that Foreign Relations committee directer Rockerfeller says CIA intelligence & other's intelligences networks- maybe- was wrong.)


I do agree- w Viggo -that individuals who are willing to help draw a world picture, offer more contrasting views are esp valuable. etc. Right on.

But re: Viggio and S Penn comments-

No one gives a D if Sean Penn wants to go to Iraq and learn about it's people. Fine. But Viggo was misleading when he said Penn was critized for it. Penn went there while US was still in discussions about the possibility of war & Penn goes there and publicially denounced the US from inside Iraq ----While US, UK, France, actually thought that Saddam had WOMD & was. prepared. to. use. them. against us!! Hello! (timing is everything, huh?) and Penn is over- w Sadam- THAT, Viggo,that, is what Penn was critized for, not for trying to learn or for simply going to Iraq. Penn's genuine curiosity was not critized. His going to educate himself was not critized. Nothing wrong w that.

Viggo saying that Rumsfield did not care if our soldiers advanced beyond protection and supply lines. I was under impression, Rumsfield did not want American causalities.But, Viggo said he didn't care, so I must be wrong,since he can read minds.

Viggo said there was no real reason to go other than ego & greed of Bush. NOTso. (I'm sorry, didn't the House and Senate and weren"t here some soldiers form Australia and Spain and------Never Mind, Viggio said it was Bush's ego & greed, so that settles that) but. if.he . is. wrong.How many 9/11's are U willing to have , to find out??How many?
And now we learn that George Tenet and CIA
and Blairs intelligence & France' s "intelligence" was wrong. Who ever sat in office on this one would get blame-Bush or other.
I had the same reaction to the Patriot Act as Viggo tho, I really think we have to monitor our rights every day.

Homeland security- Viggo's "Vaterland" comments were way the H out of line, and I think better suited for Sadam, not Bush.IMO.


Viggo said there is a well promoted notion
that if you not in politics, not a senator or congressman, you have no right to speak about those things. ! HuH? Bullcrap!
That is totally asinine. Where the H is that "well promoted"notion? Nowhere! What an asinine thing to say.(and there is a diff between saying what a person says is stupid vs calling the person stupid-U know, beeblebox)


I agree w Viggio that people have a right to express their opinions- actors, nurses etc etc. OF COURSE!,duh!
(We elected an actor as gov in CA, Viggio)

I am glad Sauron, I mean Sadam is out of power. Oops, it was Bush that Viggo said was Sauron of American politics.Interesting.

[Tuukka]

Viggio said US went into Iraq, made a mess,for no reason at all-or for economic reasons etc etc Really?
Well, Viggio, before the war, the CIA (CIA Director , George Tenet- who stood behind Powell in speech to UN)was sure Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them.(think about that !)
This was not a political judgment-it was agreeded by the intelligence services of Britain, France and other nations. (Read the Moscow Times, archives, right after US invaded Iraq-in which Putin said "everyone knows Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" but America should give inspectors more time.)

Why would Russia "know" Iraq had WOMD?

Viggio says we went into Iraq for no reason at all, or Bush's ego, or greed, well! That's his opinion.Never mind the facts.
But what if
with Bush given the "intelligence ' he was given, and
he had NOT acted? Think about that.( It is now that Foreign Relations committee directer Rockerfeller says CIA intelligence & other's intelligences networks- maybe- was wrong.)

RE:

I assume you haven't listened to the news in quite some time?

There was *NEVER* any evidence on weapons of mass destruction. Never. Lot's of evidence was presented, but many people pointed out that it was false. Unfortunately Bush and his goverment INTENTIONALLY ignored this and presented false proof as "fact". They did it over and over again, despite the fact that many sources, including CIA, said that the evidence didn't hold any water. England also offered false proof (and their goverment has been in deep shit lately because of it). France was against the war all the time. To my knowledge Russia never offered any substantial proof.

The problem with the situation was that people who said that the proof didn't hold any water were labeled as "anti-american". it was in the interests of Bush administration to start the war, and they were prepared to use any means to achieve it.

I can provide detailed examples of the *lies* that were told to american citizens, but you have to wait until Tuesday, because I'm right now on a very slow connection.

As for Viggo, he seems like a very nice and smart man.

[Beeblebrox]

Viggo said there is a well promoted notion that if you not in politics, not a senator or congressman, you have no right to speak about those things. ! HuH? Bullcrap!Where the H is that "well promoted"notion? Nowhere! What an asinine thing to say.

Yeah, I wonder where Viggo could get an idea like that.

Hollywood should stick to acting, not activism (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jonahgoldberg/printjg20030307.shtml)

Anti-war celebrities face backlash (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84375,00.html)

Who cares what celebrities say about Iraq? (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Primetime/celebritypolitics030220.html)

And didn't you JUST say someting about Viggo and myself being "ANTI-AMERICAN" just because we dared question President Flightsuit?

The "argument" is that celebrities should shut up because they don't know what they're talking about. And by extension, so should ANY American who doesn't know what he's talking about, as Ari Fleischer confirmed when he said that "Americans...need to watch what they say, watch what they do." (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010926-5.html)

I disagree on one point with Viggo. He assumes, I think, that Republicans actually have some kind of principle about celebrities speaking out. That, of course, is not the case. Republicans have no principles. They want LIBERAL celebrities (and nurses, teachers, et al) to shut up. They invent these convenient "principles" about celebrities to mask the fact that they really are just targeting liberal celebrities, and that CONSERVATIVE actors can speak out all they want, informed or not.

[MsMoviefan]

Here's what I see.
The newspapers liberal-bias
The radio stations are consetvaataive-bias
The tv stations can't get anything right.
But
I've been referred to moronic and have a non functioning brain, by giving my opinions-right here on Jo jBlo, sooooo, the celebraties are no worse off than the rest of us, and no need to worry about them.
What would help, I think,if they could find something one positive to say about this government.
As for me, I am fiscally conservative,socially liberal, don't have any organized religion since I believe in GodGoddess not religion, that way it gives a wider range of people who can hate me.Wouldn't want to let anyone out. :-)

[Beeblebrox]

I've been referred to moronic and have a non functioning brain, by giving my opinions-right here on Jo jBlo, sooooo, the celebraties are no worse off than the rest of us, and no need to worry about them.

So you've been called a moron on this website.

Meanwhile critics of the Bush administration (including liberal celebrities) have been labeled as anti-American traitors BY OUR GOVT (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/06/inv.ashcroft.hearing/) (and you), and told to shut up BY OUR GOVT, (http://www.iht.com/articles/109286.html) had their wives outed as under-cover CIA operatives, had their CDs burned in giant bonfires...

Yeah, that's the same thing.

Maybe these guys don't say anything positive about this administration because they don't think there's anything positive to say. But there are plenty who do, conservative celebrities who support Bush. Um, Arnold. Hello?

But strangely, no one tells THOSE celebrities to "stick to acting."

As for me, I am fiscally conservative,socially liberal, don't have any organized religion since I believe in GodGoddess not religion

That just leads me to wonder why you support Bush at all. He's none of those things. He's a fiscally irresponsible, social conservative Methodist who thinks Jesus appointed him president.

[ANTBond007]

I had a good laugh -- and then let off a terrified shudder -- when I heard Bush say he believed he was doing God's will.

[TheAxeGrinder]

I never thought anything could be dumber than a rock, but here we are. . .

[MsMoviefan]

I don't support Bush in everything, I just really do believe Bush (& Blair too) truly believed there were WOMD in Iraq and were prepared to use them, or provide them to terrorist organizations. The "intellegence" was wrong, and maybe overreacting because of the failure that resulted on 9/11.But Bush and Senate and House relied on that info & acted accordingly.
But,
I'm saving my money because our economy is in the toilet.
And our environmental problems need be addressed yesterday so to speak, esp my fav, which re: the water issues.
And I don't go near anyone else's religious issues because;
It's too personal
it's might be working for them, so ok
it's inapprobiate
I'm not quite that stupid
It's a waste of time
I don't even want to bother,unless asked


any or all of the above, take your pick

But I think Bush went into Iraq believing George Tenet and others. I believe Rumsfield does care about American troops.And I believe Bush acted in best interests to protect American citizens according to the info he had been given.
congress thouught so too, as did elected officials in England.Not privvy to it, but there must have been a reason.

[Lynn7]

I'm not getting dragged into this one cause I realize that people on opposing sides will never see eye to eye, but I will say that there was evidence of weapons of mass destruction before we went in- just ask the Kurds. Have a nice day! :p

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I'm not getting dragged into this one cause I realize that people on opposing sides will never see eye to eye, but I will say that there was evidence of weapons of mass destruction before we went in- just ask the Kurds. Have a nice day! :p



Hon, and I'm not even trying to be a bitch, but you do know that they got those weapons from us right?

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by MsMoviefan
By the way, beeblebox, saying someone is spouting anti american philo or saying something stupid is not calling someone an anti american person or is not calling him a traitor or a stupid person.

Ah. I see.

Okay, that you call criticism of this administration "ANTI-AMERICAN" is ridiculous, ignorant, and completely asinine, and I've never heard anything so sickeningly stupid in my life.

See, I'm not saying YOU are mind-blowingly ignorant. Only what you said. Fair?

Btw, (Joblo, I'll get back on topic in a sec, I promise ;)) the administration cares so much about the troops that in the past six months they've tried to cut veteran benefits by $15 billion, combat pay for soldiers NOW serving in Iraq, separation pay, and Rumsfeld has ordered the closing of 100 out of 425 military bases in the US.

All the while, they've used support for the troops as a political hammer to attack their opponents. Republican Saxby Chambliss, a DRAFT-DODGER, compared his opponent Max Cleland, a vietnam vet who left 3 limbs on the battle field, to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein because he dared question Bush on the issue of national security.

You're right. I don't know what on earth Viggo could be complaining about. Your boys are regular heroes.

[Lynn7]

I just reread my post and it sounds snotty. I didn't mean it that way.
I meant the have a nice day as being my way of letting go of the discussion. It is always tempting to get involved cause talking politics is one of my favorite things but I know JoBlo doens't like it so....

and these discussions never really do go anywhere cause no one ever changes their minds. We all beleive strongly in our own convictions.

[dellamorte dellamore]

I said it before and i'll say it again , if a democratic Pres was in DA house , Viggo Ellessar would be all for an invasion of Iraq , and it's subsequent occupation .


What he said doesn't bother me in the least , it's the obvious bias and transparent nature of his comments that do .


When Clinton went to Bosnia , i bet VM felt he was a hero and courageous for doing so , even it was a civil war that maybe we had no business getting involved in , but when Bush invades a country for the purpose of National Security , he's doing it for financial reasons . By the way , i think what he said was that the people of Iraq look at Bush as Sauron . You know the all powerful evil entity oppressing defenseless , innocent free peoples of Middle East ( Earth ) . Something like that I don't think he actually called him Sauron .


Anyway , i could care less , no matter who the Pres is , someone will hate em' , someone will like em' . But one thing is for sure , Bush is the lesser of the two evils when it 's between him and Clinton , that guy was true joke , at least this guy is concerned with security , not gettin some from portly interns .

But again , VM is hopelessly on the Democrats side , he's only following the party line . Put a Democrat in there , have them invade a country , and he'll hold a fundraiser to partially finance the rebuilding .

[Tuukka]

I said it before and i'll say it again , if a democratic Pres was in DA house , Viggo Ellessar would be all for an invasion of Iraq , and it's subsequent occupation .


What he said doesn't bother me in the least , it's the obvious bias and transparent nature of his comments that do .

RE: Can you point out any proof for this? Many people (including me) supported Bush Sr. helping Kuwait, and yet they are against the current war. That war was also supported by UN.

When Clinton went to Bosnia , i bet VM felt he was a hero and courageous for doing so , even it was a civil war that maybe we had no business getting involved in

RE: But Clinton and UsA helped to resolve the situation. The war ended and everyone was better after that. The war also had UN's support.

but when Bush invades a country for the purpose of National Security , he's doing it for financial reasons.

RE: The problem is that Iraq was in no way a threat to USA. They had not weapons of mass destruction, they didn't do any terrorist attacks against USA.

But now, *after* the war, they are increasingly becoming a threat. If USA fails in rebuilding, they will have several million new potential terrorists in Iraq just waiting to get their revenge on USA. At this point the actions of USA have lessened the national security, not made it stronger.

By the way , i think what he said was that the people of Iraq look at Bush as Sauron . You know the all powerful evil entity oppressing defenseless , innocent free peoples of Middle East ( Earth ) . Something like that I don't think he actually called him Sauron .

RE: In an earlier interview he said that for people in Iraq Bush might seem like Saruman, not Sauron.

But again , VM is hopelessly on the Democrats side , he's only following the party line . Put a Democrat in there , have them invade a country , and he'll hold a fundraiser to partially finance the rebuilding .

RE: Since USA has destroyed the infrastructure of Iraq, it is the responsibility of USA to fund the rebuilding. Regardless of whether rebublicans or democrats are in power.

BTW, have you noticed that many rebublicans as well currently think that the war was a mistake? The support of the war doesn't follow the support of the political party.

As time passes by and more and more money is spent on Iraq, more and more rebublicans are going to take a stand against Bush.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by dellamorte dellamore
What he said doesn't bother me in the least , it's the obvious bias and transparent nature of his comments that do .

So transparent bias bothers you. Then I wonder how you feel about your own then. You are, after all, simply following the party line, saying no more or less than every other defender of Bush. Right?

So please. Let's drop the pretense. It's disingenuine at best.

When Clinton went to Bosnia , i bet VM felt he was a hero and courageous for doing so , even it was a civil war that maybe we had no business getting involved in , but when Bush invades a country for the purpose of National Security

You're factually incorrect about a few things here. First of all, Kosovo was not an INVASION. The US lent air support (and air support only) to a NATO operation to stop ACTIVE genocide. 300,000 people had already been slaughtered. And that operations actually ended with the arrest of the Milosivic, the mastermind behind it.

If Viggo supported the pres (and I'm sure he didn't think he was a "hero") it was for that reason, just as most Dems supported Bush Sr in Somalia. They also supported Bush Jr in Afghanistan.

So if you're looking for consistency on that issue, look at the Dems.

Contrast that with the Repubs, who supported Bush Sr in Iraq and Somalia. Suddenly switched views on Somalia when Clinton became president. Then attacked him over Kosovo and Haiti. Then switched back when for Iraq. You can predict the side of their issue by whether or not there is an R or D next to the president's name.

Furthermore, they actually criticized Clinton (and viciously I might add) WHILE AMERICAN SOLDIERS WERE IN THE AIR. Take a guess as to how many Dems called them anti-American traitors at the time despite the fact that Repubs blamed America for the mess over there in the first place.

Give up?

Zero.

When Dems did the same thing, Repubs were not so courteous.

Second, Iraq is not a security issue. (Unlike Iran or N. Korea) Iraq was no imminent threat to the US. The WH even said it wasn't. So I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Iraq has little to do with terrorism and nothing to do with terrorism against the US.

Bush is the lesser of the two evils when it 's between him and Clinton , that guy was true joke , at least this guy is concerned with security , not gettin some from portly interns.

Bush cared nothing about national security until 9-11 (unless you count the boondoggle missile defense program). This despite being warned repeatedly by Clinton and then later by former members of Clinton's defense team that Osama Bin Laden would by the number one foreign policy concern of Bush's presidency.

After the Cole bombing, Clinton's team had created a report that detailed massive changes that needed to be implemented in order to combat a growing domestic terror threat. One Bush adminstration official called it "everything we've done since 9-11." But before 9-11, Bush and his team dismissed that report, concentrating instead on Iraq and missile defense.

And Democrat Gary Hart helped outline a broad new govt dept that would combine the communications and intelligence of several enforcement agencies. They called it the Dept of Homeland Security. Bush threatened to veto it. He was not interested.

Not until 9-11. And even then he has squandered all international good will and re-directed the war against Al Qaeda to Baghdad instead, creating a terror threat where none existed before.

We are no safer and probably less secury now than we ever were. And we've had to sacrifice civil liberties and privacy rights to the govt just to go backwards.

So is Bush the lesser of two evils? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[MarkItZero]

Hey Beeble, dont you ever get sick of trying to convince everybody that all Republicans are evil bastards and all liberals are saints?

Hell, I love a good political discussion as much as the next guy (more in fact), and I've been drawn into these debates with you before, and I probably will again, but this is a movie site for cripes sakes! How come every time I see your name next to a post, it is a half page diatribe about all the crimes committed by those heinous conservatives?

I disagree with pretty much everything you say, however I respect your right to think it, but I am begining to think that you post threads like this one just so that you have a chance to expel your daily dose of venom.

Please accept the fact that not everyone feels the way you do, and that your rantings are not likely to cause the schmoes to rise up and attempt to recall Bush. If you still feel the need to discuss your politcal viewpoints, please find somewhere else to do it.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by MarkItZero
How come every time I see your name next to a post, it is a half page diatribe about all the crimes committed by those heinous conservatives?

As soon as conservatives stop committing heinous crimes, I'll stop speaking out against it. Believe me, there are ways I'd rather spend my time than pointing out the truth about these lying, slimy scumbags. But someone has to do it.

I disagree with pretty much everything you say, however I respect your right to think it, but I am begining to think that you post threads like this one just so that you have a chance to expel your daily dose of venom.

So calling Viggo and myself "anti-American" for not swallowing Fearless Leader's lies is NOT venom. But me defending myself and posting a fact-filled retort IS venom. I see.

If you disagree, why don't you try stringing a few sentences together (instead of your ad hominem whining) that show why I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

If you still feel the need to discuss your politcal viewpoints, please find somewhere else to do it.

Hey, at least you didn't tell me to move to another country. That's progress already. And I do discuss these issues other places (and conservatives there aren't interested in facts or reality either). But this was celebrity related so I posted it here.

Viggo isn't here to defend his views, and I happen to agree with him on several things so I'm doing it. I know that whole freedom of speech thing makes you uncomfortable but I didn't make you respond to this thread.

If Joblo wants to lock it, he can. It's his board, not yours.

[Tuukka]

"Hey Beeble, dont you ever get sick of trying to convince everybody that all Republicans are evil bastards and all liberals are saints?

Hell, I love a good political discussion as much as the next guy (more in fact), and I've been drawn into these debates with you before, and I probably will again, but this is a movie site for cripes sakes! How come every time I see your name next to a post, it is a half page diatribe about all the crimes committed by those heinous conservatives?

I disagree with pretty much everything you say, however I respect your right to think it, but I am begining to think that you post threads like this one just so that you have a chance to expel your daily dose of venom.

Please accept the fact that not everyone feels the way you do, and that your rantings are not likely to cause the schmoes to rise up and attempt to recall Bush. If you still feel the need to discuss your politcal viewpoints, please find somewhere else to do it."


RE:

I would like to point out that Beeble's original topic and 1st post were in fact movie and celeb related. On the following posts he has written about non-movie related issues, but he has done so in order to give counter-arguments to other posts.

I think that the difference between Beeble and many others is the way how he always brings facts and well supported arguments to his posts.

In principle I don't really agree with his exaggarated anti-rebublican bias either (I think some rebublicans are smart and honest, while some democrats are dumb and dishonest), but he does prefer to talk about facts instead of just irrational and false opinions.

Your post on the other hand didn't bring any facts or reasonable arguments to this discussion. So why did you even bother? The only content in your post was to "attack" another schmoe.

If the moderators consider this thread to be too much off-topic, it will be closed. We can always send them a message about topics which are out of hand.

[Nate6]

This thread is way out of hand. It's not a big secret that any threads that go off-track of talking about celebrities will be closed. I warned you all at the start, apparently it didn't matter. Merry Christmas.

Thread closed.