I cant beleive this!

[Shockwave]

This is a rant about how they apparently have cut out ALL of Christopher Lees scenes in ROTK! No mention will be made of what happend to his character and we are made to assume that he was taken care of inbetween movies! PJ has cut his opening scenes due to time restraints or other unknown reasons but this just stinks of bad storytelling! They should have finished his role up in TT if they were unsure of how to use the footage!

This would be akin to Lucas cutting out Count Dookus scenes in the next star wars movie and having fans assume that Anakin took care of him somewhere inbetween movies.

Blarg! Chris was really enthusiastic about his role in the ROTK but know i hear he may not even show up at the premeire and i could hardly blame him. BLARG!!

I hope to god this is changed, even if they put him back in for the big-dvd-addition it would be a diservice to him and the movie goers to cut him out. The movie is already over 3 hours! 5 extra minutes isnt going to kill it!

[Folco]

If he had put it in the begining of ROTK, then it would have been BAD storytelling. Starting with an intense character scene and the death of a major character would have thrown the film's rithym of balance. It's like finishing off a climax of the second story in the begining of the third; that doesn't work.

[Shockwave]

It's like finishing off a climax of the second story in the begining of the third; that doesn't work]'

So the answer is to lazily write the character out of the picture without even giving the audiance an explanation of what happend t him?

No offense to PJ, but shouldnt he have thought of that BEFORE he put Sauramons demise in the thrid movie and not TT?

[MarkItZero]

Originally posted by Shockwave
No offense to PJ, but shouldnt he have thought of that BEFORE he put Sauramons demise in the thrid movie and not TT?

Exactly! :mad:

Fuckin dipshit is trying to ruin the movies!

[Folco]

Originally posted by Shockwave
So the answer is to lazily write the character out of the picture without even giving the audiance an explanation of what happend t him?

No offense to PJ, but shouldnt he have thought of that BEFORE he put Sauramons demise in the thrid movie and not TT?

Anyone with a brain could figure it out Saruman got fucked up at the Ent attack.

And who's to say that he wasn't already planning this before he started editing TTT? Maybe he didn't want to tell anyone he was cutting the scene out until it was the right time.

Although I do wish Christopher Lee could make one more appearence in the trilogy, I don't know where that scene could fit, neither in ROTK nor TTT.

[Shockwave]

Although I do wish Christopher Lee could make one more appearence in the trilogy, I don't know where that scene could fit, neither in ROTK nor TTT.

It could fit in either. Just like the books were made to be one long book that was later divided.

[Folco]

Originally posted by Shockwave
It could fit in either. Just like the books were made to be one long book that was later divided.

Yeah, but there's these things called momentum, tension, rhythm, which, if PJ choses to ignore, would turn ROTK into another Matrix Revoblewtions.

[Shockwave]

TT was already overly long and lacked any sense of real tension until the final fight started. It could have fit nicely after the end fight and added a resolution to the whole thing, after watching a movie as long as TT was, 5 more minutes wasnt going to kill me.

Heck, if anything they could have chopped down aragon and the rest of them running across the plains for 30 minutes. Or the overly sappy and long speech given by Sam at the end. Or Aragon day dreaming of Arawyn for no reason.


I loved FOTR and liked TT, but TT wasnt SOO much time putting in these trivial little details, and i was fine with this, little details make the movie. BUT, when u include them OVER the important scenes of main characters due to lack of foresight it tends ruin the movie.

[Folco]

Originally posted by Shockwave
TT was already overly long and lacked any sense of real tension until the final fight started. It could have fit nicely after the end fight and added a resolution to the whole thing, after watch ed a 3 and a half hour movie , 5 more minutes isnt going to kill me.

Heck, if anything they could have chopped down aragon and the rest of them running across the plains for 30 minutes.

The first 40 minutes of the film WERE badly edited, yes, but the rest is pretty awesome. And you can't cut the travelling scenes, because that's the entire point of the film (the journey, the long path, etc).

And PJ couldn't put the Saruman scene at the end of TTT because the emotional climax of it came with Sam's speech, Rohan's victory and the destruction of Isengard. Anything after that wouldn't have felt right, it would have felt like "PJ didn't knew how to end it" and etc.

[Jon Lyrik]

If I hadn't read the book, I would have come to the conclusion that he got killed in the Ent attack.

I think you can say that for the theatrical version out of interpretation, but the EE could be different I heard.

[APzombie]

Wow, this is really depressing :(

I was looking forward to more Saruman in Return of the King, I thought he was shunned out enough for the Two Towers, i hope hes in more for the Two Towers EE. I reeeeealy hope he'll be in the Return of the King EE....

[Annie Hall]

Whoa whoa whoa...

FIRSTLY...

Let's all remember that we have NOT seen the film yet. "Ruining the trilogy" and calling Peter Jackson lazy of all things?

Lazy. If anyone even SOMEWHAT enjoyed the first two movies, it is absolutely silly to call PJ lazy. He spent a good 6 or 7 years of his life working on this trilogy; perfecting scripts, casting, locales, even the Elf language. I personally believe that in laboriously working to make the films work and be true to the trilogy, he is absolutely allowed to make changes that he thinks will cinematically serve RotK.

This, I daresay, is the exact opposite of laziness. Perhaps laziness would be leaving him in so that, despite the anti-climactic beginning, he wouldn't have any fans on his back, or worse, Christopher Lee bitching. But, PJ has done what he believes will in the end be best for the, remember, the MOVIE.

[electriclite]

Yeah, besides, the scenes will most likely be returned to the film when it comes out on DVD.




Here's to that awesome day when all three movies are issued in the ULTIMATE BOX SET.

(saving pennies as we speak)

[Cronos]

the one thing i hate about ROTK is that they changed the end of the film and didnt include the last part of the book, something that should have been left in the story

[Squirrel_X]

Originally posted by Folco
Yeah, but there's these things called momentum, tension, rhythm, which, if PJ choses to ignore, would turn ROTK into another Matrix Revoblewtions.

DON'T YOU EVER SAY THAT!!!! YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!! I'm gonna cry. I don't think I could live with the top 2 movies that I have been looking forward to in 4 years suck ass, that would be too much for me to handle. Of course if that happens, then the fates will intervene and Star Wars Episode III will be the greatest movie ever released in cinema history, EVER.

[Dead Halloween]

Originally posted by Folco
Anyone with a brain could figure it out Saruman got fucked up at the Ent attack.

Not exactly



----SPOILERS----
Saruman died way after the Ent atack, Gandalf only took his powers. After that he went to the Shiar with wormtoungue and taked the land. Then Frodo and his pals arrived and defeated him. Wormtoungue killed him afterwards

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by Dead Halloween
Not exactly



----SPOILERS----
Saruman died way after the Ent atack, Gandalf only took his powers. After that he went to the Shiar with wormtoungue and taked the land. Then Frodo and his pals arrived and defeated him. Wormtoungue killed him afterwards

I don't think that's what Folco meant. If I was reading it correctly, the intent was to say that if PJ does indeed just leave Saruman out, people will automatically assume that he got killed in the Ent attack. Not that that is what actually happened in the books or the original story

[gyro_44]

I should start a rant of my own about some people's responses to this... these responses being "PJ is a lazy fuck!", "Bring me PJ's head on a platter", "PJ is ruining the books on purpose!" What utter fucking bullshit.

First of all, I don't think most people know how to assemble a major epic and can offer any valuable insight into why the scene was cut at this point in time. Secondly they should understand that Jackson is one of the biggest LOTR fans around (as are his co-writers), and I'm sure making this cut wasn't easy.

Of course I'm disappointed, like pretty much everyone, but I'm giving PJ the benefit of the doubt. I will very much look forward to it in the extended cut of ROTK, and will see how they handle the exclusion in the theatrical cut. I also will love it when all the whiners and bitchers inevitably show up to see ROTK on opening night. PJ has delivered two wonderful films so far, and people are quick to pounce on him for making editorial decisons. I can understand where you guys are coming from, but let's be mature. And I won't be signing any stupid petitions either.

OUT.

[Shockwave]

The scenes will be on the EE.

Like i said above, i feel more sorry for Chris Lee then anything. They said they were EXPANDING the character od Saramon to give Saurons forces more of a human face, and then -snip- snip- then goes ALL of his scenes AT THE LAST MINUTE.

Just the fact that he was really excited about seeing the film finished and to be dumped on the fina lap has got to hurt.

[Dead Halloween]

But, if they cut Saruman they must cut Wormtoungue too isn't?

That sucks! Saruman's death was one of the best parts of the book. I hope he didn't cut the scenes just to add the rumored stupid fight between Aragorn and Sauron (which never happens in the book by the way).

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Dead Halloween
But, if they cut Saruman they must cut Wormtoungue too isn't?

That sucks! Saruman's death was one of the best parts of the book. I hope he didn't cut the scenes just to add the rumored stupid fight between Aragorn and Sauron (which never happens in the book by the way).

So Saruman dies then?

Guess I don't need to sit through TTT.

[gyro_44]

Originally posted by Grebdron
So Saruman dies then?

Guess I don't need to sit through TTT.
Yeah, nothing else happens. It's not like there's a huge epic battle or anything.

Remember to use ***SPOILER*** tags, everyone. Speaking of which, *SPOILERS* here....



By the way, Dead Halloween, you're not going to miss Saruman's death from the book. That hasn't been cut, because it was never filmed to begin with. The Scouring is not in ROTK altogether. The "death scene" that has been cut from the theatrical version will be at Isengard, with Saruman still in his tower. And yes, Wormtongue will be cut too. :( I'll miss em, but all us fans will get to see the scene eventually.

[MarkItZero]

Maybe if PJ hadnt spent so much time conjuring up his own additions to the story, such as the Warg fight, Aragorn falling off the cliff, the Ents saying 'no' and Frodo going to Osgilith, then he wouldnt have had to cut out some of the best parts of the book.

I have been a huge fan of the books for years and years, and I loved FOTR. And though I enjoyed some parts of TTT, on the whole I was dissapointed. And I am even more dissapointed to find out that we will be missing even more cool scenes in the theatrical version just because PJ felt the unexplainable need to send Frodo to Osgilith.

That being said, I of course am still very much looking forward to ROTK, because a flawed LOTR trilogy is better than no trilogy at all. I just dont understand how something that started out so good has taken such a bad turn.

[Shockwave]

That being said, I of course am still very much looking forward to ROTK, because a flawed LOTR trilogy is better than no trilogy at all. I just dont understand how something that started out so good has taken such a bad turn.

Pretty much my exact thoughts. The cut Saramon scenes would haver fit in with PLENTY of time of so much misdirection hadnt been taken in TT. Im all for added content but not at the expense of the scenes that REALLY matter.

I just dont see how PJ didnt see this coming.

And then for Christopher to catch wind of it from a web site before they could tell him! Then again id be afraid to tell him his scenes were cut so i cant blame themon that one.:p

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by MarkItZero
Maybe if PJ hadnt spent so much time conjuring up his own additions to the story, such as the Warg fight, Aragorn falling off the cliff, the Ents saying 'no' and Frodo going to Osgilith, then he wouldnt have had to cut out some of the best parts of the book.

I have been a huge fan of the books for years and years, and I loved FOTR. And though I enjoyed some parts of TTT, on the whole I was dissapointed. And I am even more dissapointed to find out that we will be missing even more cool scenes in the theatrical version just because PJ felt the unexplainable need to send Frodo to Osgilith.


****YOU is not directed towards MarkItZero, just a general you

This is my point...you have no idea why he did what he did. I mean, you could be right, maybe Peter made a mistake...but...cinematically, I believe every turn that he took MAKES SENSE. Is it not more cinematic for the Ents to see what had happened to the other trees?

You have to remember that these movies must be made to make sense to both the LOTR freak and the lay person as well. Jackson took measures that, while straying from the book, made the movies far CLEARER (at least in my eyes) for people who haven't read the books. I just feel like the poor guy is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

If he had left everything exactly the same, we would be hearing a flood of "The Two Towers, was, like, REALLY hard to understand...I had NO clue what was going on" or complaining because it was even slower. To IMPLY all of the stuff that J.R.R. wrote in the books would either be unclear, or take too long to set up. Jackson may have spent some extra time, but what he did eventually got everything to the same place it was supposed to be, and it made it 10x clearer for those who haven't read the books.

The only part of TTT that I felt could have been done better, was if Aragorn had returned from falling off the cliff and we had just seen what had happened in quick flashbacks. We would've gotten the same effect, less time, and his bursting through the doors would've been 10x more awesome.

At any rate, why not just judge how much Jackson has, "messed up the trilogy" after we see the movie.

And, remember what happened the last time someone was so freaky faithful to a fantasy novel-on-screen?

Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

[gyro_44]

Thanks for putting that so well Annie. I agree completely.

PJ has his own reasons for such editorial decisions, and I trust him to make those. Of course, in terms of running length, the scenes with Saruman WOULD have fit in had PJ not dwelled on Aragorn's tumble off the cliff, the Arwen flashbacks, etc. But that's not the point here. PJ has said the scene had been cut more for pacing reasons, and getting the momentum rolling in ROTK.

I completely disagree that the trilogy has taken a "wrong turn". Lord of the Rings remains more faithful to its source than 9 out of 10 Hollywood adaptations. Unless it's completely butchered in ROTK... and I think that is quite unlikely. Meanwhile, it's only one month away and I'm more excited than ever.

[MarkItZero]

Originally posted by Annie Hall
At any rate, why not just judge how much Jackson has, "messed up the trilogy" after we see the movie.


Good point Annie. Inspired by your comments I will refrain from calling PJ a 'dipshit' or any variation of 'trilogy ruiner' until after seeing ROTK. And then hopefully those comments will be replaced with stuff like 'greatest living director','best movie ever' etc etc.

I do have high hopes for ROTK and I do think it will be an excellent movie. I just hope he keeps the rewriting to a minimum.

[Common Sense Man]

Hmmmm

Well one thing I can say is that PJ is a giant among directors period, even if ROTK is 3 hours of watching shit steam!

What he has done so far dwarfs many life long achievements by other directors we would call great.

But that aside.

I feel for Mr. Lee but I never liked the idea of his plot arch being changed in the first place.

I am okay with dumping the Scouring of the Shire as it would be anticlimactic. So if I am okay with that I have to be okay with a reduced role for Lee.

I would rather see the scenes added back for the ROTK EE than totally dumped.

But I was never down with the way they planned to end it with him.

I am suprised that PJ hasn't went crazy and burned the whole thing down with all the crap he gets from people.

I know it is lame to say that you should keep your mouth shut unless you can do better. But in this case it may apply.

He didn't just make a movie like any other hollywood director he made three at once and on a scale never seen before.

And unlike Lucas he can't simply make shit up, he has to follow the framework or be roasted on a spit.

So I say Hazahhh to PJ you go boy!

And I will be there to see ROTK with a big god damn smile on my face.:D

Out...........................................

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by Common Sense Man
Well one thing I can say is that PJ is a giant among directors period



I wouldn't say that. He's made 2 good movies, and the rest are decent low budget genre movies.



He's talented. But not a God.

[The Rain Dog]

Originally posted by gyro_44
I should start a rant of my own about some people's responses to this... these responses being "PJ is a lazy fuck!", "Bring me PJ's head on a platter", "PJ is ruining the books on purpose!" What utter fucking bullshit.

First of all, I don't think most people know how to assemble a major epic and can offer any valuable insight into why the scene was cut at this point in time. Secondly they should understand that Jackson is one of the biggest LOTR fans around (as are his co-writers), and I'm sure making this cut wasn't easy.

Of course I'm disappointed, like pretty much everyone, but I'm giving PJ the benefit of the doubt. I will very much look forward to it in the extended cut of ROTK, and will see how they handle the exclusion in the theatrical cut. I also will love it when all the whiners and bitchers inevitably show up to see ROTK on opening night. PJ has delivered two wonderful films so far, and people are quick to pounce on him for making editorial decisons. I can understand where you guys are coming from, but let's be mature. And I won't be signing any stupid petitions either.

OUT.

This man speaks for me.

The scene will be on the EE - so quit ya bitchin.

These films could have very easily sucked arse - instead they're the saga of the decade.

Have a bit of bloody faith and trust - we're not discussing George Lucas here people.

RD

[RicochetShaw]

I disagree. I think Peter O'Toole's best performance was in Lawrence of Arabia.

[Shockwave]

I disagree. I think Peter O'Toole's best performance was in Lawrence of Arabia.

I agree.

[therealjohng]

Originally posted by RicochetShaw
I disagree. I think Peter O'Toole's best performance was in Lawrence of Arabia.



No way man. King Ralph.









:D