"Spirits of Mavericks" sequel to "Point Break"

[the bark]

sequel to Point Break, the early '90s bank robber surfing thriller.

As 1 of my fav action movies, I've often wished for more of that action. This is an idea I've had for how a sequal could be made.

Keanu Reeve's character FBI agent Johnny Utah discovers that guru surfer/bank robber "Bodhi", Swayze, did in fact not pay the ultimate price at Belles Beach Australia as thought, but is in fact alive and well and now surfing the big wave breaks of Mavericks in Northern California while keeping a low profile.
The 1st movie hinted at Utah quitting the FBI force at the end as he tossed his badge into the surf, and you got the sense he was primed and willing to enjoy a spiritual surfing guru lifestyle himself.
Now a decade later Utah is that experienced surfer guru who moves on to the bigger and extreme challenges of the big waves of Mavericks himself where he stumbles upon Bodhi and his 2 like minded gurus.
Although their relationship is not friendly at 1st, and Utah struggles with the idea of turning Bodhi over to authorities and to the law that he has grown to resent, Bodhi is still his confident and persuasive self, and uses the situation to lure Utah into joining his guru gang to resurrect the "X presidents", who turn their attention to robbing armored bank cars, for more unorthodox quick paced action.
Noticing a similarity in style between these robberies and the bank robbery spree of Southern California over a decade before, a relatively youthful gungho agent, who has quickly made a name for himself in the L.A. bank robbery department, I'm thinking a character played by Owen Wilson, is dispatched to the northern Ca. location to investigate, where he must not only face the dangerous of the undercover investigation itself, but the extreme dangers of surfing the lethal waves of Mavericks also while posing as a big wave surfer.
He naturally teams up with Utah, another relative newcomer to Mavericks, to learn this dangerous art, under the watchful eye of none other than Bodhi and his 2 guru buddies.
Will the combination of Utah's former experience as an FBI agent combined with Bodies persuasive spiritual guidance influence this new agent to their world above the law? Or will the new agent's youthful vigor in serving the law rekindle Utah's former desire to serve the law himself? Or has Utah already gone to far?
The massive waves would pound, the bullets would fly and fun would be had again.

Any thoughts? Anyone interested in sharing the concept of this screen play, as I don't have much writing experience, but am full of ideas?

[skrunt]

I think you and I are the only two people who liked that movie, but even I don't believe there is any room or justification for a sequel.

I also don't think Owen Wilson really fits into the movie either. Just out of curiosity were you inspired by Owen Wilson's reference to big wave surfing at Mavericks in the movie Zoolander? If so that is a great scen, and if not that is still a great scene.

[the bark]

No that wasn't the inspiration for the comments about Owen Wilson though, I just like him and his bro as actors, and that said, actually I think his bro would play a better character in such a story.
Actually though I know of a lot of people who simply enjoyed the heck out of the movie, but it holds no real special appeal in the hearts of most avid movie fan's hearts, in the end though I think it did well for pure fun and entertainment, just did so without leaving much of a trace and did so more under the radar in my opinion.
That said, I can't see how a good sequel can go wrong now days, there's so many poorly made and thought out sequels to movies that were no good to start with. Appreciate the comments though.

[Ronaldinho]

Understand-- and I don't say this to discourage you, because obviously you're still pretty young and you need to be writing for the fun of it, first-- but do understand that there is no chance in hell no matter how good this script is of it ever getting made.

If you enjoy writing it, then by all means knock yourself out. Have fun with it.

But you have to understand, the way Hollywood works, that it's simply not going to happen, and even trying to get an unauthorized sequel script read would mark you as a newbie in such a way that most people would run away as fast as they could.

Now, once people have a little more experience, I tend to discourage them as strongly as possible from writing fanfic scripts (which is what this amounts to). Take that energy, take that passion, and channel those ideas into something original. It'll be a more edifying and more fulfilling experience. I'm not going to hammer that too hard right now, so long as you understand that, in undertaking this, you're undertaking a project that will only ever be read by your immediate friends.

[the bark]

The 1st post was the brainstorming of the idea I've had in the back of my mind for some time.
After some more thought, some elaboration on the "The Spirits of Mavericks" idea.

The theme, "The human spirit never dies".
It's a story of how the human spirit of loved ones is resurrected in both memory and in the visible impacts of character that are left from time shared with those loved ones.
Although deceased characters can be hard to resurrect without complex stories, this story resurrects 2 main characters from the original in Swayze's character Bodhi, who simply did not die as thought at the end of "Point Break", and the affable FBI agent Angelo Papus, Gary Busey's character, who was k.i.a. in the line of duty towards the end of the original.
Busey's character Angelo is resurrected in voice from time to time in head of Reeve's character Utah, and also in both the inner voice, and likeness of, in the youthful FBI agent assigned to the case, Andy Papus, Jack Busey?, the son of Busey's character who in this story is inspired to follow in his fathers footsteps in the FBI, resurrecting Angelo's fight for good on the side of the law.
Utah's soul mate Tyler, Lori Petty, has died in a surfing mishap a year before and the emotional distress lures Utah to Mavericks, where he is inspired to push the envelope on the edge of death, and feels close to her spirit.
But his character is not a depressed, pouting character, such as Kurt Russell's rhetorical character with a deathwish in the movie "Stargate". As surfers, these characters draw strength from the ocean in a positive way.
Upon reuniting with Bodhi, it is this underlying vulnerability in Utah that Bodhi exploits in luring him to the other side.
But Bodhi has some spirits to reckon with himself, as the adrenalin and bullets of their new crimes awaken the memories of things gone bad during his former tribe's final robbery over a decade ago which left 3 of his beloved friends, an undercover police officer and agent papus dead.
The character of the youthful undercover Papus is taken under the wing of the still learning Utah at Mavericks and then eventually he'sintroduced to the tribe itself. Utah feels a kinship and responsibility to look out for him which result from the bond he had with the newcomer's father Angelo.
The youthful Papus doesn't know Utah knew his father, much less that he was his trusted partner who was there when he died.
But now another, new spirit is awakened in Utah as a result, the spirit of his former partner Angelo, and Utah finds himself struggling with his new ways which betray the relationship he and Angelo had serving the law, which in turn also betrays Angelo's death in the line of duty and corrupts that innocence in his son.
Then there is the ultimate earthy spirit that binds and challenges the characters in this story, the spirit of the ocean and of Mavericks.
In the end it's not "just" another series of shoot outs and chase scenes, but a storyline about the strong bonds between the main characters who, are each strongly influenced by the spirits of the past in different ways throughout. Bonds which, pose conflicts of interest, and challenge their actions throughout their experiences at the extreme edge of death at Mavericks and throughout the exploits of their crime spree.

[the bark]

Appreciate the comments Ronaldinho, sincerely. I can see what you're suggesting about unathorized scripts, and I don't have any idea of how things are done in that business. I'm simply more of an idealist.
That said of course, in my mind I could potentially only have ideas. I honestly don't think I have the talent for writing stories or screen plays well, but the ideas I have.
That said I think some of our favorite movies and characters live on in different ways with different endings and storylines in our minds, such as the elaboration in the previous post.
This was just 1 I shared that in my mind I would like to see, and it's how I could invision them going about it, with characters and actors applied and such. So this idea is more for fun and I've likely exhausted my thoughts about such a sequel short of simply adding imput for someone else who could write it.
It's all brainstorming and like anything else, out of the many many ideas that you have or toss around, maybe only 1 ever amounts to much more.
I do have other ideas that are orignial, and since you seem to know a lot about it, a question I have is what prevents others from borrowing from somone else's ideas, if they would?

[Ronaldinho]

Ideas are two things:

Not protectable, and not particularly valuable.

The truth is you can't protect and idea. You can protect an execution of an idea. The only way you keep people from stealing it is to keep them from knowing about it.

That's the bad news. The good news is that nobody's interested in stealing your ideas. Undeveloped ideas are a dime a dozen, any writer worth his salt has more of them than he knows what to do with. Any producer in Hollywood can, with a few phone calls, spend a day doing nothing but listening to ideas from writers he likes.

I think beginers are so protective of their ideas because the think that there's some fountain of money that can be turned on if the right idea lands in the right hands, but honestly, it just isn't so.

[TheDisease]

I disagree that a sequel to Point Break wouldn't work. The whole point of the original was that it was a fun, fluff-type action movie that contained some good, So-cal action. Ronaldhino, you're acting as if he's trying to write the sequel to Citizen Kane or Casablanca.

Point Break was a success because it simply didn't give an F and was about extreme sports. I really like the premise of Patrick Swayze's character faking his death and Johnny Utah finding him surfing at Maverick's. That is a good opening and would be a total mind screw for the character to figure out he'd been lied to for a bunch of years. Where you go from there, I dunno. But I think that would be a kick ass movie if done in the correct way.

Another Suggestion: Spirit of Mavericks sounds almost too ethereal or mystic. Point Break was a good hard title. I'd use something dealing with a wave term again like, "Crashing Down" or "Shore Break" or maybe just plain, "Mavericks". :cool:

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
[B]I disagree that a sequel to Point Break wouldn't work. The whole point of the original was that it was a fun, fluff-type action movie that contained some good, So-cal action. Ronaldhino, you're acting as if he's trying to write the sequel to Citizen Kane or Casablanca.

I think you're missing the point. Ron was talking about writing sequels at all, not just sequels to particular films. It's not that a sequel to Point Break wouldn't work, it's that Bark is not the one that's going to write it, at least not at this stage in the game.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
I think you're missing the point. Ron was talking about writing sequels at all, not just sequels to particular films. It's not that a sequel to Point Break wouldn't work, it's that Bark is not the one that's going to write it, at least not at this stage in the game.

I didn't miss the point. If he wrote a good enough script, he should package it. Just because we have failed writers and filmmakers in here doesn't mean we have to keep perpetuating the idea that everyone fails....

Some make it, he shouldn't be so goddamn negative. It's stultifying.

[Ares2907]

Tell me honestly, how much do you know about the way prodcos work? It sounds like five tenths of fuck all to be very frank. Ron's not being negative, he's being honest and realistic.
Writing fanfic might be good practise for rank beginners. It might be a lot of fun. Beyond that it is of absolutely no value to you, no matter how much you want it to be. No matter how good the script is. Just ain't going to happen for reasons already explained and several others besides (getting into the whole infringing on intellectual property and copyright etc).
You sound like someone who also has a fanfic script on the go with the expectation that it will get made if it's good enough. I don't say that with the intent to disparage. Finish it if you like, but at the very best you can expect a polite no thank you when you send it out.
I don't think the thread starter was particularly enamoured with writing a sequel. Seemed to me more like he was just kicking the idea around.
If perpetuating the truth is a bitter pill to swallow, your ignore list is going to get pretty full pretty quickly. Anyone here that has had experience (successful or not) is going to back up Ron's comments 100%.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
[B]I didn't miss the point. If he wrote a good enough script, he should package it.

First of all, he can't "package it." Writers don't package.

Even if he wrote the greatest script in the world, there are limitations to what he can do. That's not to say that it could't be done, but Ron's point is that he could better spend his energy on original material. First of all, with a sequel script there's only one potential buyer, which is the rights holder. Second, he probably wants Keanu and Swayze to be in it. That means having them agree to do it and then coordinate schedules (which for Keanu is probably at least 3 years out). In other words, it's not going to happen.

And like Ron said, none of this is meant to be discouraging. He SHOULD continue to write and try to get his stuff seen. But there are more productive avenues to pursue than a sequel to a hit film.

Just because we have failed writers and filmmakers in here doesn't mean we have to keep perpetuating the idea that everyone fails....

What's this "we" shit?

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Ares2907
Tell me honestly, how much do you know about the way prodcos work? It sounds like five tenths of fuck all to be very frank. Ron's not being negative, he's being honest and realistic.
Writing fanfic might be good practise for rank beginners. It might be a lot of fun. Beyond that it is of absolutely no value to you, no matter how much you want it to be. No matter how good the script is. Just ain't going to happen for reasons already explained and several others besides (getting into the whole infringing on intellectual property and copyright etc).
You sound like someone who also has a fanfic script on the go with the expectation that it will get made if it's good enough. I don't say that with the intent to disparage. Finish it if you like, but at the very best you can expect a polite no thank you when you send it out.
I don't think the thread starter was particularly enamoured with writing a sequel. Seemed to me more like he was just kicking the idea around.
If perpetuating the truth is a bitter pill to swallow, your ignore list is going to get pretty full pretty quickly. Anyone here that has had experience (successful or not) is going to back up Ron's comments 100%.

I'm not one of those elitist snobs that fills my ignore list just so I can. In fact, it has no people whatsoever on it(course I'm new on here...)

Ron is just plain wrong. If you are writing a script, pretty much the first three or four you make will not be presentable. So why not fuck around and do something fun. Instead of writing yet another "original" idea that is half-concocted by subconcious thought and overwrought movie setups anyway. This is why most new writers starting out always seem to write romantic comedies, horror, thriller, etc... similar to one another. Mostly because they have seen the same movies and are regurgitating bits and pieces of each other onto the page, unbeknownest to them.

One of my first scripts was adapting into screenplay form the origin of the Green Lantern. It never got me anywhere but it still taught me the basic process of preparation, analyzation, structure, and how to get it done. And so go the "useless" ideas that some might have. Now far be it from me to stop rampant cynicism because it spreads like wildfire in the film industry but I'm not gonna' shut up when I disagree on a subject and I just happen to. And I thought it was a cool idea if done right.

Now I'll let some of you "real" screenwriters adapt one of Carl Sagan's books while I'm jerking off in the corner writing my POS sequel to Point Break or Tango and Cash or whatever other fluff action film exists. It's my pen. It's my page, and I'll F'in write what I want. Screw Jane Austen. :mad:

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
First of all, he can't "package it." Writers don't package.

Even if he wrote the greatest script in the world, there are limitations to what he can do. That's not to say that it could't be done, but Ron's point is that he could better spend his energy on original material. First of all, with a sequel script there's only one potential buyer, which is the rights holder. Second, he probably wants Keanu and Swayze to be in it. That means having them agree to do it and then coordinate schedules (which for Keanu is probably at least 3 years out). In other words, it's not going to happen.

And like Ron said, none of this is meant to be discouraging. He SHOULD continue to write and try to get his stuff seen. But there are more productive avenues to pursue than a sequel to a hit film.



What's this "we" shit?

Okay let me break this down for you since you love to be so condescending.

You can "package" a deal if you get a "name actor" attached. So you either get in touch with Keanu's agent or his manager or his stylist or his production company and get him to attach his name to the project. Ditto for a well known director. If James Cameron is attached to produce or direct, you know the movie will get made.

How can you do this? That is the ten million dollar question. Maybe your DD-chested, blond masseuse gives great head and loves movies. Send her to the Hollywood Hills with a dozen donuts and some viagra for old Jimbo. Or maybe just write a halfway decent script. Either way, you can "package" a deal like this if you go through the right "channels". It depends on how docile a writer and director he is, but writers aren't always neccessarily puppets and statues. They can make things work if they have the right connections and resourcefulness.

[Captain Planet]

Originally posted by Ronaldinho
Ron is just plain wrong. If you are writing a script, pretty much the first three or four you make will not be presentable. So why not fuck around and do something fun.

That's what Ron was saying as quoted below. Scroll up if you don't believe me.

Originally posted by Ronaldinho

If you enjoy writing it, then by all means knock yourself out. Have fun with it.

[Ronaldinho]

I didn't miss the point. If he wrote a good enough script, he should package it. Just because we have failed writers and filmmakers in here doesn't mean we have to keep perpetuating the idea that everyone fails....


No, you don't get it.

So listen carefully, you might learn something.

There is ONE company who owns the rights to Point Break. One. Any other script you right, the market is several dozen companies big. But there is only ONE company who might buy a sequel script.

"So," an ignorant newbie might say, "If the script is good enough, that ONE company will buy it."

But this is where the newbie reveals his ignorance. Because the problem is that that one company doens't want to read your script. It's not just a sort of passive, "Oh, gee, I don't really care." No. They are actively going to avoid trying to read an unauthorized sequel

If you knew anything about the business, you would know this. But you don't, so you should listen up. If you think I'm wrong, why don't you find some other people who work in the business and ask them, and report back what you hear.

The thing is, that if this original film was even remotely successful, they've probably got a few ideas for sequels hidden away in the vaults, even if they're not working on them actively they know that it's a possibility. And they know that there's probably going to be some overlap between your story and theirs-- because, well, certainly elements are obviously going to be common to all stories involving those characters.

So if they read your script, and then they decide, at some random point in the future, to make the sequel-- using one of their ideas, even if the people directly involved never read your script, you will sue them. Well, maybe not you. But people will. Studios and prodcos get sued all the time and this is just begging for it.

So they adopt a simple policy: they do not read unauthorized sequels.

If you send them a script, they will return it unread. If you send them a query letter, they will probably put your name on a list of people not to read stuff from again (although these lists get purged as office staff gets purged, so it's not super-permanent. But it's still not good).

They will not read it. They will run the other way.

Furthermore, since every agent and manager knows this (think I don't know what I'm talking about? Why don't you ask some and report back with your findings) they don't want to read the script, either. Furthermore, since agenst and managers are looking for writers to represent, and they want to represent people who they have confidence in, they want to represent people who aren't clueless about how the business works. It makes their life easier. And trying to get them to read an unauthorized sequel is announcing that you're absolutely clueless. So they will run away, too.

Now, sure, it's just his time and his paper. Which is why I wrote that it's not a huge deal when you're just starting out. Who really cares?

However, you will learn more, faster by writing original material because you won't have somebody else's work to do some of the heavy lifting for you. Of course, it's harder, but that's the point: you learn more when you attempt something harder.

I'm glad you enjoyed your little exercise writing an unsellable Green Lantern script. I never said such things were completely without value for writers just starting out.

Yeah, it's your F'in pen and it's your F'in paper. And you can enjoy reading what you've done-- because nobody else will ever read it if you act like a f'in clueless amateur newbie.


What is it with guys like this? You'd think that if you were an aspiring screenwriter, you'd want to get all the advice you could from people who were 5-10 years ahead of you on the career path. I know when I was just thinking about maybe getting started in film, I soaked up information from people who knew more than me.

One thing you'll learn quickly, Dieaseboy, is that only in the movies does blind bluster work. People who actually know something about Hollywood can detect the stink of the know-nothing who's pretending otherwise a mile off. And we laugh at you.

And it's a real shame, beacuse even five or six years ago you would have had to work a lot harder to find people willing to offer honest, no-nonsense advice. Here you have stumbled across a couple of them, and you're blowing it.

[XvoorheesX]

Instead of writing yet another "original" idea that is half-concocted by subconcious thought and overwrought movie setups anyway. This is why most new writers starting out always seem to write romantic comedies, horror, thriller, etc...
So, new writers try to write bankable, tried and true genre stories? That seems like a good thing to me. If your script doesn't have a clear-cut genre (or combination of), it has less of a chance of being bought. Why?
Picture a full theatre before the feature starts. There's a trailer for a rom-com, the rom-com fans will want to see it. There's a trailer for an action flick, the action fans will want to see it. Hollywood buys genre's.

[NobodySpecial]

Yeah, it's your F'in pen and it's your F'in paper. And you can enjoy reading what you've done-- because nobody else will ever read it if you act like a f'in clueless amateur newbie.
The only comment I'll make on this thread is that Ron should have used the word "fuck". Joblo.com is definitely PG-13, if not R-rated content. :)

Or maybe you're just more polite than I am. :cool:

[Cyd V]

Point Break was a great flick, but i thought they already made a sequal, it was called the fast and the furious. That theft was almost as big as M. Night shan stealing, I mean 'borrowing' from tarantino.

[XvoorheesX]

That theft was almost as big as M. Night shan stealing, I mean 'borrowing' from tarantino.
What do you mean? What has Shyamalan stolen from Tarantino that Tarantino didn't get from somebody else?

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
Okay let me break this down for you since you love to be so condescending.

Was I being condescending? You called yourself a failed writer. I simply objected to being included in that group. I can't speak for Ron, but I'm currently working on a series that was picked up for 10 episodes at a major network. In addition to directing the pilot for that show, I just finished developing a feature script at WB and have another script at Disney.

So when you talk about failed filmmakers, speak for yourself.

They can make things work if they have the right connections and resourcefulness. [/B]

There are two times I'm aware of in which a writer has written an unauthorized sequel and sold it. One of them wrote a treatment for a Godfather sequel, that didn't actually get made but it got the ball rolling. And the other wrote a Muppet movie.

The difference, of course, is that both writers were well known and had solid contacts in the business. I'm willing to bet this is not the case with The Bark. He's not going to be able to call up Keanu or Keanu's agent. He's not going to be able to go to the studio that has the sequel rights to Point Break. I'm not sure, but I don't think he even lives in Los Angeles.

But technically you're right. That is just my opinion. So Bark has a couple of choices here. He can listen to you, the self-proclaimed failed writer. Or he can listen to a couple of guys who work in the industry every day. That's entirely up to him.

[Cyd V]

Originally posted by XvoorheesX
What do you mean? What has Shyamalan stolen from Tarantino that Tarantino didn't get from somebody else?

Mel Gibson's character in signs is exactly the same as harvey keitel's character in from dusk till dawn. A priest who looses his faith because his wife died, they're 100% identical. Infact i'll even go as far to say that gibson probably used from dusk to prepare for his role, because he even plays the role the same way as harvey did... But i don't care, tarantino has 'borrowed' from his share of people...

[XvoorheesX]

Yeah, I never noticed that at all.
The films are different enough, so I'll just call it a coincidence, but I do see where you're coming from.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
Was I being condescending? You called yourself a failed writer. I simply objected to being included in that group. I can't speak for Ron, but I'm currently working on a series that was picked up for 10 episodes at a major network. In addition to directing the pilot for that show, I just finished developing a feature script at WB and have another script at Disney.

So when you talk about failed filmmakers, speak for yourself.



There are two times I'm aware of in which a writer has written an unauthorized sequel and sold it. One of them wrote a treatment for a Godfather sequel, that didn't actually get made but it got the ball rolling. And the other wrote a Muppet movie.

The difference, of course, is that both writers were well known and had solid contacts in the business. I'm willing to bet this is not the case with The Bark. He's not going to be able to call up Keanu or Keanu's agent. He's not going to be able to go to the studio that has the sequel rights to Point Break. I'm not sure, but I don't think he even lives in Los Angeles.

But technically you're right. That is just my opinion. So Bark has a couple of choices here. He can listen to the self-proclaimed failed writer. Or he can listen to a couple of guys who work in the industry every day. That's entirely up to him.

Am I supposed to give a shit about you selling some series to a network and being able to direct. Would you be impressed if I told you I was banging Meg Ryan last night? God, you're worse than those metrosexual name-droppers that hang out at the Rainbow B&G and run their fingers through each other's hair every five minutes. Welcome to Hollywood - some writers will slip through the cracks. Unfortunately, it happened to be someone who could give two shits about helping people constructively.

Let's be honest - you don't love writing, you love the thought of writing. The superiority of it all. Well, I love the meat of it. The bones, the sinew, the grit. I don't like stories that end with a happy ending and I don't like people slapping rules and guidelines on writers who want to create their own shit. Now you and Ron can clusterfuck and brainstorm and pitch to the WB or UPN or whatever marginally talented network will take you but it probably involves selling out your dreams to write for the umpteenth Buffy spin-off.

I'm proud of not being famous or discovered yet. I draw a certain energy from it. I'm most definitely a nobody that knows it. That's better than a somebody who's so wrapped up in his quaint little rules about how to go about doing things that he never takes the road less-traveled.

And a film student just recently wrote, directed, and produced a Batman flick that is getting serious consideration from the studios. So there's three success stories from an "unoriginal" idea. Oh well, hope the pilot goes well. I'll be eating my baked beans and writing another five pages with my unemployed writer ass. Cheers!

[XvoorheesX]

That's an awful long way of saying "I'm jealous".

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Ronaldinho
No, you don't get it.

So listen carefully, you might learn something.

There is ONE company who owns the rights to Point Break. One. Any other script you right, the market is several dozen companies big. But there is only ONE company who might buy a sequel script.

"So," an ignorant newbie might say, "If the script is good enough, that ONE company will buy it."

But this is where the newbie reveals his ignorance. Because the problem is that that one company doens't want to read your script. It's not just a sort of passive, "Oh, gee, I don't really care." No. They are actively going to avoid trying to read an unauthorized sequel

If you knew anything about the business, you would know this. But you don't, so you should listen up. If you think I'm wrong, why don't you find some other people who work in the business and ask them, and report back what you hear.

The thing is, that if this original film was even remotely successful, they've probably got a few ideas for sequels hidden away in the vaults, even if they're not working on them actively they know that it's a possibility. And they know that there's probably going to be some overlap between your story and theirs-- because, well, certainly elements are obviously going to be common to all stories involving those characters.

So if they read your script, and then they decide, at some random point in the future, to make the sequel-- using one of their ideas, even if the people directly involved never read your script, you will sue them. Well, maybe not you. But people will. Studios and prodcos get sued all the time and this is just begging for it.

So they adopt a simple policy: they do not read unauthorized sequels.

If you send them a script, they will return it unread. If you send them a query letter, they will probably put your name on a list of people not to read stuff from again (although these lists get purged as office staff gets purged, so it's not super-permanent. But it's still not good).

They will not read it. They will run the other way.

Furthermore, since every agent and manager knows this (think I don't know what I'm talking about? Why don't you ask some and report back with your findings) they don't want to read the script, either. Furthermore, since agenst and managers are looking for writers to represent, and they want to represent people who they have confidence in, they want to represent people who aren't clueless about how the business works. It makes their life easier. And trying to get them to read an unauthorized sequel is announcing that you're absolutely clueless. So they will run away, too.

Now, sure, it's just his time and his paper. Which is why I wrote that it's not a huge deal when you're just starting out. Who really cares?

However, you will learn more, faster by writing original material because you won't have somebody else's work to do some of the heavy lifting for you. Of course, it's harder, but that's the point: you learn more when you attempt something harder.

I'm glad you enjoyed your little exercise writing an unsellable Green Lantern script. I never said such things were completely without value for writers just starting out.

Yeah, it's your F'in pen and it's your F'in paper. And you can enjoy reading what you've done-- because nobody else will ever read it if you act like a f'in clueless amateur newbie.


What is it with guys like this? You'd think that if you were an aspiring screenwriter, you'd want to get all the advice you could from people who were 5-10 years ahead of you on the career path. I know when I was just thinking about maybe getting started in film, I soaked up information from people who knew more than me.

One thing you'll learn quickly, Dieaseboy, is that only in the movies does blind bluster work. People who actually know something about Hollywood can detect the stink of the know-nothing who's pretending otherwise a mile off. And we laugh at you.

And it's a real shame, beacuse even five or six years ago you would have had to work a lot harder to find people willing to offer honest, no-nonsense advice. Here you have stumbled across a couple of them, and you're blowing it.

I won't cop to your 'I know everything" bullshit, guru attitude but I will say that if you are what I have to look up to as a mentor, I'd rather dip my balls in the fry oil at In-N-Out Burger.

Did I even ask for advice? Did I even mention you and contructive criticism in the same sentence?! No, we were talking about writing a sequel to Point Break and if that was a good idea. I said yes, you said no. You are thinking from a commercial stand point, I am thinking from a learning stand point. I understand the importance of movie/sequel rights and who owns them and being true to yourself but this 'all knowing' demeanor really pisses me off. If I was a new writer I'd be interested in WHAT you are saying, just not the way you're saying it.

In fact, I bet you're a great writer and a hell of a brain, Ron. Just nobody I'd want to hang out with on a Saturday night but I' m sure it's vice-versa so I guess we'll squash it.

"Mavericks" would still be a kick ass title, Bark. Think about it. Just get a good ocean-specific cinematographer to film it. Maybe the guy that filmed Endless Summer II, Bruce Brown. Just a thought. :D

[TheDeadWalk]

I don't necessarily believe that a fan script would be useless. Though the film itself may never be made, it gives those "in the know" a chance to review the work of said screenwriter with the added bonus of it being some familar background material.

IE: Perhaps Dimension(Or Akkad for that measure) read a very talented writer's fanscript of a Halloween sequel and not be interested in the script persay, but see potential talent for a new screenwriter who could provide a similar slasher project.

Network it.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
Let's be honest - you don't love writing, you love the thought of writing.

You can say whatever you want to make yourself feel better about your own failures, but the bottom line is that I know a lot more about how this industry works than you. Why that's supposed to make me the bad guy with you is something I'm still trying to figure out. All I'm doing is giving advice from an informed place. I don't have to play your ignoramus guessing game. I actually know some of these things first hand.

You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but that's the reality.

I'm proud of not being famous or discovered yet.

If the virtue of taking the road less traveled is pride in being a failed writer, then I'd welcome the beaten path if that were the choice. I entertain people with my work. That's my ultimate goal and I've achieved some success at it. I tell stories for a living. It's not much more complicated than that and I make no apologies for it.

Does your pride in your own failures accomplish anything other than arm you with the bitterness to attack me for being successful? Does it entertain anyone other than the aspiring writers who frequent this message board?

And a film student just recently wrote, directed, and produced a Batman flick that is getting serious consideration from the studios.

Are you talking about that Batman short film? It's the one with the Alien and Predator in it, right? If so, it was not made by a film student. It was made by a special effects veteran who works for Stan Winston studios and wants to be a director. Is that the one you mean?

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
[B]I won't cop to your 'I know everything" bullshit, guru attitude but I will say that if you are what I have to look up to as a mentor, I'd rather dip my balls in the fry oil at In-N-Out Burger.

If you videotaped it at the same time, at least you'd be doing something that entertains people.

Of course, you'd have to give up your chip-on-the-shoulder martyrdom attitude that your misdirected pride in failure affords you, but show business is about sacrifice.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
If you videotaped it at the same time, at least you'd be doing something that entertains people.

Of course, you'd have to give up your chip-on-the-shoulder martyrdom attitude that your misdirected pride in failure affords you, but show business is about sacrifice.

Beeble, you're wanted on-set. The WB needs you to come up with the next eight pages for Brandi/Britney Spears/Christina Aguilera/random N'Sync member's next pilot.

Oh that's right, you're the director. I hope you brought some kneepads and a sponge.

Signed,

Failed, though more talented, Writer

[Ronaldinho]

There are two times I'm aware of in which a writer has written an unauthorized sequel and sold it. One of them wrote a treatment for a Godfather sequel, that didn't actually get made but it got the ball rolling. And the other wrote a Muppet movie.


Well, this is one of those things-- I strongly suspect that neither of these were written on spec.

If you're an estbalished pro, you can call uup whomever has the rights, get a meeting, and pitch them sequel to one of their projects.

The difference is that if they say no, it's not a ton of work wasted. Of course, most writers do a fair amount of prep work for pitches, but it's nothing like writing the actual script.

And I would argue that the above (estbalished writer pitches sequel to project) happens fairly often. But that's a world away from writing a spec and sending it out.

[Ronaldinho]

Did I even ask for advice? Did I even mention you and contructive criticism in the same sentence?! No, we were talking about writing a sequel to Point Break and if that was a good idea. I said yes, you said no. You are thinking from a commercial stand point, I am thinking from a learning stand point. I understand the importance of movie/sequel rights and who owns them and being true to yourself but this 'all knowing' demeanor really pisses me off. If I was a new writer I'd be interested in WHAT you are saying, just not the way you're saying it.


If you were really interesting in what I was saying, you would have read it. Which you clearly didn't.

I mean, even when somebody pointed it out to you already, you keep repeating this canard that I said not to do it, when what I really wrote was:

If you enjoy writing it, then by all means knock yourself out. Have fun with it.
and
Now, once people have a little more experience, I tend to discourage them as strongly as possible from writing fanfic scripts (which is what this amounts to).

To claim that I was saying that he shouldn't write this is either ignorant or dishonest. Your choice.

But if he is going to write it, he needs to understand that he's writing something that will never be sold.

[Ronaldinho]

IE: Perhaps Dimension(Or Akkad for that measure) read a very talented writer's fanscript of a Halloween sequel and not be interested in the script persay, but see potential talent for a new screenwriter who could provide a similar slasher project.


Unfortunately-- and this is my entire point-- these people have no interest in reading fanfic scripts.

They won't read it, because whether they read it to learn about the writer or read it to produce, they open themselves up to plagarism charges.

(And everybody else, well, they're too busy to read scripts "just to see about the writer," they read looking for stuff to produce, and in the process of that end up learning abotu the writer.)

[TheDisease]

-Now, once people have a little more experience, I tend to discourage them as strongly as possible from writing fanfic scripts (which is what this amounts to)-


So this wasn't you telling him not to write it...because it sure sounds a hell of a lot like it.

If not, what does discourage mean? Because I thought discourage means to suggest against performing a selected action.

He said he wanted to write it, you said he probably shouldn't(due to commercial interests). And again you continue with the 'I don't read your posts' bullshit. Spare me. I understand them. I read them. I disagree with them. I think they're pretentious and full of Hollywood elitism. Is that succinct enough for you?

[James Logan]

Just droppin' by to remind some of you we got rules about respect, and they gotta be, well, respected.

Y'all chill now, ok? :)

If you guys wanna talk about The Bark's idea, fine. If you guys wanna debate about the use of writing unofficial sequel scripts, fine. But next bloke who insults someone gets this topic closed and his arse into trouble.

Now have fun. ;)

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by James Logan
Just droppin' by to remind some of you we got rules about respect, and they gotta be, well, respected.

Y'all chill now, ok? :)

If you guys wanna talk about The Bark's idea, fine. If you guys wanna debate about the use of writing unofficial sequel scripts, fine. But next bloke who insults someone gets this topic closed and his arse into trouble.

Now have fun. ;)

Understood. This isn't snaps. We were being childish. It won't happen again.

All I wanted was a Point Break sequel.........
:(

[NobodySpecial]

But next bloke who insults someone gets this topic closed and his arse into trouble.
What the hell?! Is this the way you Frenchies are talking these days. ;) :D :P

[Ares2907]

'bout time those frenchies learned to speak English - just like normal people. :p

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by Ronaldinho
[B]Well, this is one of those things-- I strongly suspect that neither of these were written on spec.

Actually they were both written on spec without rights in hand. The guy who wrote the Muppet sequel is a Kevin Smith prodigy and got connected to Henson that way. The other guy had just written a big hit film in the late 80s and decided to take a crack at The Godfather sequels.

So IF you have the contacts, it certainly can be done. It's not impossible. But I still wouldn't recommend it. It's a matter of channeling energy in the most productive places and I don't think a Point Break sequel is it.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
Signed,

Failed, though more talented, Writer [/B]

The proof is in the pudding, dude.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
Actually they were both written on spec without rights in hand. The guy who wrote the Muppet sequel is a Kevin Smith prodigy and got connected to Henson that way. The other guy had just written a big hit film in the late 80s and decided to take a crack at The Godfather sequels.

So IF you have the contacts, it certainly can be done. It's not impossible. But I still wouldn't recommend it. It's a matter of channeling energy in the most productive places and I don't think a Point Break sequel is it.

What about possibly writing another sequel to Charlie's Angels....

No, wait, scratch that. WORST IDEA EVER. McG should be scrubbed with steel wool and drenched in sulfuric acid. Thank God he won't get to direct the Superman sequel. I can't bear the thought of Clark Kent walking out of the Daily Bugle in slow motion w/ crappy techno music playing in the backgorund.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
The proof is in the pudding, dude.

I'm allergic to pudding. :rolleyes:

[Ronaldinho]

Originally posted by TheDisease
-Now, once people have a little more experience, I tend to discourage them as strongly as possible from writing fanfic scripts (which is what this amounts to)-


So this wasn't you telling him not to write it...because it sure sounds a hell of a lot like it.


Really? It looks to me like a conditional sentence, since he described himself as not having much writing experience.

And that's even if you ignore the context-- which makes my point abundantly clear.

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by Ronaldinho
Really? It looks to me like a conditional sentence, since he described himself as not having much writing experience.

And that's even if you ignore the context-- which makes my point abundantly clear.

I guess we've reached the point of spinning wheels. The Bark has the info he needs. He can either take advice from the dillusional martyr who's proud to be a failure, or he can listen to the guys who work in the industry every day and who have something resembling actual knowledge on the subject. That's up to him.

What's interesting is how many conversations like this I've seen in just the past week. Some dude wants to pick a fight because you happen to know what you're talking about on this particular subject and YOU'RE supposed to be the one with the ego problem. Must be something going around. Maybe it's the flu or the mad cow or something.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
I guess we've reached the point of spinning wheels. The Bark has the info he needs. He can either take advice from the dillusional martyr who's proud to be a failure, or he can listen to the guys who work in the industry every day and who have something resembling actual knowledge on the subject. That's up to him.

What's interesting is how many conversations like this I've seen in just the past week. Some dude wants to pick a fight because you happen to know what you're talking about on this particular subject and YOU'RE supposed to be the one with the ego problem. Must be something going around. Maybe it's the flu or the mad cow or something.

You're right, you have no ego. You're egoless. Hopefully you can congregate with your WB buds and count out the ways you can 'sell out' the next couple of years. I don't have that many fingers....

I see in your future, some type of TV movie you direct with the mother from Growing Pains. But maintain your temprement. Guys like me can really get to geniuses like yourself. Some actual creativity might rub off too.

As for this topic, I gave my rational response and you began with the pretentious diatribes. I'm fine with leaving that crap in the past. I didn't want to start a fight....I'm over it.

-The Martyr-

P.S. The WB blows(except for the Jamie Kennedy Experiment)

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDisease
P.S. The WB blows(except for the Jamie Kennedy Experiment) [/B]

Hilarious. You've not only misread and misconstrued Ron's posts, you've done the same with mine as well. I never said I worked for the WB network. My deal was with WB, as in Warner Bros the STUDIO.

So if your lame ass attempt to insult me is indicative in any way of your creative talent, then it's no wonder you're having to fry your balls in grease at In and Out Burger just to get by.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by Beeblebrox
Hilarious. You've not only misread and misconstrued Ron's posts, you've done the same with mine as well. I never said I worked for the WB network. My deal was with WB, as in Warner Bros the STUDIO.

So if your lame ass attempt to insult me is indicative in any way of your creative talent, then it's no wonder you're having to fry your balls in grease at In and Out Burger just to get by.

Yes, it is hilarious. And the WB still blows.

[C-Desecration-]

Look, I . . . well, this discussion is about things I'm pretty clueless about (what studios want/will consider/yadda yadda) so I have kept my mouth shut . . .

But I'm really confused about your whole point, disease. I'm aware that this has been stated many times and each effort was met with another thick-as-a-stone-fucking-brick response, yet here I am ready to make another go at it. Wish me luck.

Ronaldinho and beeblebrox are saying that they obviously are right, seeing as how they've apparently made it in the biz and are professionals. They are reading their answers straight out of the official Hollywood FAQ (Q:should I do something original? A: No Q: Should I bother trying to write something I want to even if it might be difficult to sell A: no). In both their opinion's fan scripts are written by amatuers to help hone their craft because they already have a foundation laid out in the form of familiar characters, plot, etc.

From what I've read, that's what's circling your mind disease (nice name bud; it fits).
Where the bloody fuck did you get that from?
Are you reading things?

You're right, you have no ego. You're egoless. Hopefully you can congregate with your WB buds and count out the ways you can 'sell out' the next couple of years. I don't have that many fingers....

So . . . okay, so I got it: if you suggest that fanfics and the like are very, very rarely accepted or even viewed by studios and thus if you're to the point where you feel that you're abilities are up to par (or exceed, uh, par) and want to do a script that could possibly get made you should try to tinker with more original ideas . . .
or if you work for WB, UPN, FOX, Dreamworks, whatever . . .
or if you're smart enough to realize that yes, there ARE certain rules that apply to screenwriting (even if they have quite a bit of creative slack) . . .
or if you just want to offer any friendly advice because you've been around the block a few times . . .
You're a sell out.
Oh, and you have an ego for trying to suggest to others what to do. Undoubtably. In fact, I suggest everyone out there just write anything you want, fuck copyrights or - hey, here's an idea - fuck characters! Who needs em'? Fuck plot, fuck everything; let's just go wild!

There are guidelines. The more experienced schmoes here were just suggesting a few pointers that they've picked up along the road to success. It's like a pro baseball player showing a young kid how to bat; they don't have an ego, they're just trying to pass on some knowledge.

Sheesh.
*takes a breath*

Okay, I'm calm.
EDIT: Now that I'm calm . . . disease, let me say again:
bebble and ron've been around the block. I think they're successes (I know beeble is). They're just trying to help us out. They aren't insisting that they are right, far from it (notice all the 'I suggest' and 'In my experience'; its carefully worded that way for a reason).

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
or if you work for WB, UPN, FOX, Dreamworks, whatever . . .
or if you're smart enough to realize that yes, there ARE certain rules that apply to screenwriting (even if they have quite a bit of creative slack) . . .
or if you just want to offer any friendly advice because you've been around the block a few times . . .
You're a sell out.

I particularly loved that bit of nonsense. Anyone doing what they love and making money at it is a sell out. And he's calling ME pretentious. Oy.

Raise your hands anyone who'd love to fit that definition of "selling out," ie working as a professional filmmaker/writer and getting paid for doing what you'd gladly do for free!

[Cyd V]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
I suggest everyone out there just write anything you want, fuck copyrights or - hey, here's an idea - fuck characters! Who needs em'? Fuck plot, fuck everything; let's just go wild!





Okay, I'm calm.

I'm down with that. But seriously, if this shmoe wants to go ahead and write this, let him. We all know it's a waste of time, he's going to waste his time no matter what any1 says, so i say go waste your time, which is exactly what i'm doing right now...

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
Look, I . . . well, this discussion is about things I'm pretty clueless about (what studios want/will consider/yadda yadda) so I have kept my mouth shut . . .


Ronaldinho and beeblebrox are saying that they obviously are right, seeing as how they've apparently made it in the biz and are professionals. They are reading their answers straight out of the official Hollywood FAQ (Q:should I do something original? A: No Q: Should I bother trying to write something I want to even if it might be difficult to sell A: no). In both their opinion's fan scripts are written by amatuers to help hone their craft because they already have a foundation laid out in the form of familiar characters, plot, etc.

From what I've read, that's what's circling your mind disease (nice name bud; it fits).
Where the bloody fuck did you get that from?
Are you reading things?



So . . . okay, so I got it: if you suggest that fanfics and the like are very, very rarely accepted or even viewed by studios and thus if you're to the point where you feel that you're abilities are up to par (or exceed, uh, par) and want to do a script that could possibly get made you should try to tinker with more original ideas . . .
or if you work for WB, UPN, FOX, Dreamworks, whatever . . .
or if you're smart enough to realize that yes, there ARE certain rules that apply to screenwriting (even if they have quite a bit of creative slack) . . .
or if you just want to offer any friendly advice because you've been around the block a few times . . .
You're a sell out.
Oh, and you have an ego for trying to suggest to others what to do. Undoubtably. In fact, I suggest everyone out there just write anything you want, fuck copyrights or - hey, here's an idea - fuck characters! Who needs em'? Fuck plot, fuck everything; let's just go wild!



Go back a page and read what the argument started about. Bark was discussing his idea for a PB sequel. Ron said not a good idea, I said write whatever makes you feel good and make it a learning experience. If he plans to sell said script then the odds aren't in his favor BUT like I said it was the TONE in Ron's response that made me edgy.

To proclaim yourself to be the king of this board and lord over it like some literary demagogue is weird and creepy. I respect that these guys have success at what they do but that doesn't mean they have to shit upon everyone that disagrees with their philosophy and career path.

And I don't need my knee patted because I'm a newbie on here. I think it's great that you agree with them, have a giant praise party with them for all I care. I don't and won't. I have a dissenting belief about how Hollywood works. There are angles and cracks and fissures to bypass the system, if done correctly. It is not only what you know but critically, WHO you know. That is how this business works. They know that. So why belabor this by pretending that he's going to get his project produced from an indie script he wrote. Sure, he will. If it's his 30th and he has major credo - other than that, nein. We all read the same books and the same FAQ so the trends are what we make of them in this business, ergo, possibly ten years from now people will be into scripts about 1950's and 60's classic-style comedy(Honeymooners, DVD show, etc...) Check out Down With Love, if you want to see a clear example of this. Trends change to suit the industry and vice versa.

That's why you find the back door and slip through it. Instead of banging your bloody stump of a head into the billionth closed door.

And thanks for the compliment on the name, bro. You're right, it does fit.
:D

[XvoorheesX]

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible...

Let this die. Stop making enemies, because it's completely pointless. Ron said to write it for fun or practice, but realize that it will never sell. You then took this off on a tangent, ruined the it with your ranting, and insulted a whole lot of people.

[TheDisease]

Originally posted by XvoorheesX
I'm going to say this as nicely as possible...

That was your best attempt at nice?

Maybe next time you can drop your cigar in my pancake batter....

Sorry, I made so many enemies. Next time I'll bring the complacency. :rolleyes:

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by XvoorheesX
I'm going to say this as nicely as possible...

Let this die. Stop making enemies, because it's completely pointless. Ron said to write it for fun or practice, but realize that it will never sell. You then took this off on a tangent, ruined the it with your ranting, and insulted a whole lot of people.

By my watch, Disease took the moderator's request to stop the horseshit and attempted to return back to civilized conversation. Beeblebrox then aptly had to return comment with his "The proof is in the pudding", and then tack on some more crap calling disease a "Dillusional martyr" and then go on about how many similar ego driven conversations he's had this week.

That shit should've stopped at Logan's request, but as Beeble is infamous for, he throws in subtle insults to try to bait folks like Disease into coming back with harsh blunt insults, which he did... hook, line, and sinker.

Basically, if you want stuff to end, then stop posting with implicit insults, including the sarcastic spins on someone else's quotes. (IE: "Failed writer")

[Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
That shit should've stopped at Logan's request, but as Beeble is infamous for, he throws in subtle insults to try to bait folks like Disease into coming back with harsh blunt insults, which he did... hook, line, and sinker.

Whoa, is Disease's ranting supposed to be MY fault? Take a look at the guy's comments to everyone who didn't agree with him. He insulted me, Ron, and anyone else who dared question his very questionable advice. He denegrated my work despite obviously never having seen it and tried insulting an entire network just because he thought I worked there.

So I'm not going to take the blame for some dude's ignorant blathering. Yes, I defended myself and others, and maybe you regard that as a crime, but I'd do it again if I had to.

[inglourious basterd]

I was busy attending to other stuff at the time, so I didn't get a chance to explain why I closed this thread. I closed it because of the fact that, despite the informal warnings, we have not been able to proceed beyond personal insult. The last thing I want to do is to get schmoes banned for dick-measuring contests. I don't think that it will benefit anyone on these boards.

Disease:

Earlier today, I got reports from three different schmoes that you initiated the argument that erupted in this thread. (Incidentally, Beeblebrox and Ronaldinho were not the schmoes that reported this to the moderators). I agree with the fact that you can disagree with other schmoes on the board, but by accusing them of not being qualified to make objective comments, the reponses you received were undeniably provoked. Furthermore, it is against the rules of this board. Please read them here: http://joblo.com/rules.htm

But that doesn't necessarily mean that their own insults were justified.

But that gets me to my next point. They only resorted to those long after you insulted them (by implying that they were "failed writers"). Prior to that, it was simply discussion that was supported with objective facts.

Sure..you are free to object or disregard those facts, but rather than calling them egotistical and pretentious snobs (allegations that were not supported through this thread alone), you should have illustrated your point more clearly.


Ronaldinho and Beeblebrox: Although I understand the fact that you were defending yourselves from personal insult, by saying that "we laugh at you" and calling him "a f'in amateur newbie", and a "dilusional martyr", I feel that you guys went a step further than necessary. When you guys stated your objective opinion, I am sure that you could have left it at that. We do have rules of respect here. And EVEN IF Disease said the most innane things possible, a personal attack is not justified.

**Please note that I am not implying that Disease's comments were innane. I am just saying that even if he did say innane things, a personal attack would not be justified under the rules of the forum.

By posting this message, I am not trying to get on anyone's back. What I am trying to do is to reillustrate the mission of the forum: to bring constructive discussion to various issues. And by doing this, we help a lot of people who are trying to learn the craft. I understand all of your viewpoints and it would be much appreciated if we continued to keep discussions constructive.

If anyone has any questions/comments, please feel free to PM me. Please do not post any more responses about this issue. I am more than willing to discuss this in private. Topic closed.