The negative stigma attached to suicide . . .

[C-Desecration-]

Wait, why is this in general horror?
Well, because it certainly relates to many horror movies, right? Hmm. I've brought this up a lot and figured why not see what horror fans on the boards think . . . so if this turns out to be a bust topic-wise, sorry, and feel free to close it down.

Does the negative stigma attached to suicide bug anyone else? The outlook that those who commit suicide are "cowards" and "taking the easy way out"? In other cultures suicide is an honorable thing, but here we've twisted it into something for weak bastards who can't handle their lives so just give up. A lot of things are wrong with our society, but this one seems the most interesting to bring up in a horror forum.

I'm nervous this thread might get a tad personal, but I still want to ask how people who've maybe had a close friend/love one commit suicide . . . and how you feel when you hear people talking about how 'weak' those who commit suicide was.

. . .
. . . I'm starting to think this isn't really in tune with what this forum is about.
I guess the mods will have to decide.

[Reigh Kaufman]

It's a bit personal but it IS a very interesting question and might bear some intelligent discussion.

My view is the same, in some respects, as Albert Camus (yeah, me and my existentialist buddy Albert Camus, we talk about it down the pub all the time, lol) in his seminal essay The Myth Of Sisyphus: suicide, the most symbolic act of the absurd reasoning, is THE definitive choice of the individual - and as such, need not be justified to anyone but them.

However, and this may prove contradictory in any other posts I might make...

I have lost people in my family to suicide, depending on one's view of what is and isn't assisted, and can clearly remember the death of my big brother's best friend when I was ten. I hold no sway on the mortal sin aspect ascribed by certain sections of the (primarily) Catholic church (too many loopholes and grey areas, etc) but I can also appreciate that the act itself, no matter how desperate the person is/was, resonates and impacts on their family to a devastating degree; as such I cannot quite bring myself to condone their actions (naturally, if the person is/was suffering a terminal illness, for example, then I can perhaps make 'allowances' - which clearly is not the right word, but will have to suffice).

Anyway, I will willingly participate in this thread and provide more if the topic is allowed to survive, but for now I shall wait and see.

[Mog]

You said that in some cultures it's considered honorable - which cultures?

[C-Desecration-]

Japan, especially.
Honorable warriors, for instance, many times took their own lives. A cut across the belly--the guts spill out.

I'm not very knowledgeable about other culture's views on suicide aside from Japan's, so . . .
Any information would be appreciated.


resonates and impacts on their (?) family to a far more devastating

True.
BUT, isn't this more of a result of our culture rather than the act itself? Think about it.

[XpatrickX]

To me it's just a way to say 'I give up' and giving up a precious gift like life is extremely weak....or even pathetic. Maybe the person wasn;t pathetic, but their reasoning(as said above) is definately absurd.

[Reigh Kaufman]

C-Desecration

No. The act itself is what removes the person from the family. That certain cultures can accept suicide in an 'honourable' way does not make the loss of their loved ones any easier to bear, I imagine. You say it yourself that it is the STIGMA you are fundamentally concerned with. These cultures that you intimate at do not suffer (apparently) from the stigma.

But I myself do not give a rats ass what anyone thinks of me and my actions, nor do I concern myself with what society, whatever the fuck that means, thinks of an individuals decision to commit the act of suicide. My concern is for the emotional effect on the family after a loved one has deliberately chosen to end their life. Everything else is for the birds. So, getting back to the original question, yes, I suppose the stigma IS what bother me most. The act itself is still, in my opinion, the most basic right of the individual. Everyone else can fuck off.;)

[C-Desecration-]

The act itself is what removes the person from the family. That certain cultures can accept suicide in an honourable way does not make the loss of their loved ones any easier to bear, I imagine.

First off, I'm basically referring to friends/loved ones. I can't relate to any shock-waves of sorrow after a family member has died . . . not to sound cold, but that's just my family. We're strangers. We don't hate one another, but it's just like hearing about a death on the news: you're sorry, but . . .
So referring to 'friends/loved ones', let's pretend that suicide isn't frowned upon as much. Now:
In our society we view those who commit suicide as terribly depressed, lonely individuals (many times the case--don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound like I'm assuming). But if suicide was something more 'honorable', it might be remembered as not so much a depressed individual ending their miserable life, but an honorable man/woman passing into the after-life.
Yes, a death is a death and loss is a loss. But the how's/what's/but's/etc. regarding the death although resonate. To elaborate, say somebody passes in their sleep. Nice and peaceful.
He/she just died. Those close to him/her are coping with a loss.
Now let's say this same person didn't die in their sleep, but got into a horrible accident where they were sawed in half. Very painful.
He/she just died. Those close to him/her are coping with a loss . . . but's it's worse. They know that this person they loved suffered.

I'm having a difficult time explaining myself . . . partly because this topic is a land-mind--I'm worried about taking any steps. Even if anyone's managed to decipher my post my point isn't necessarily right. I'm just opening it up.
I do actually agree that the thought of suicide has to spread to those close to you. If you were going to commit suicide, you can't just think about how you'll do it--think about what'll happen once your gone. How you'll make those close to you feel.
I agree with that.
My point is just something to consider.

[Romero&Juliet]

Firstly, Suicide and the usual related existential-y crises are rarely dealt with in horror films. Really, its a potential goldmine for good material, when you think about it.

The Japanese thing you're talking about is called HARAKIRI and its considered a last act of penance that a discraced warrior makes to the people whom he's served. A noble act, but was considered a sort of discrace all the same. Weird paradox, really..

The kind of negative stigma attached to suicide in our culture is comparable to the kind of indignation towards alcoholics, criminals, etc.. and who knows why?! A kind of mass hysteria, mabye?!

Fact is, pretty well all of the diagnosed 'cluster B' personalities who've commited suicide (and they account for the diagnosed group of people who HAVE been treated before, etc. Also, they account for the majority of people who have commmited the act) have this down to a tee.

For one thing, these people have attempted suicide MANY times before doing it (for whatever reason. It blankets a variety of psychoses and habits) and when they get it right its because they decide to: notes, a well researched/contrived method, time and place, etc.

and there's the thing... this[way of thinking] is bred in the bone, whether people choose to acknowledge it or not.

Its the kind of equivocator: should we hold a group of people responsible for horrible acts which they have little control over? Certainly, a very advanced society who chooses to condemn those people are rejecting all this science and learned facts - thus, sending us back into the dark ages!


In my opinion, it has a lot to do with our systems of criminal and clinical reformation. Firstly, there's always been very bizarre ideas about these institutions for a long time. You know, the put them as FARRRRR away from us as possible, so we dont have to look at it. From the stories of BEDLAM, even.. being completely lawless and crazy (hehe, my sister actually works in a mental institution.. have any of you guys ever been in one?) just breeds a whole lot of contempt and fear, etc..



You know I actually have NO idea what the reasoning behind suicide being illegal is! Do any of you?

[ERIN_LoJ]

I dont know guys,suicide is a sad thing all around. Many times holding on to life is a blessing because things Do improve.

But sometimes life gets too hard the person may do it on a whim. Suddenly see a gun there and do it out of desperation. Perhaps if they sat and thought things through they would have hung in there.

And sometimes things DOnt get better. sometimes the person stays alive but ends up going crazy from personal pain. Are they then better off? thats a personal opinion

I am not suicidal and happy to be alive BUt....despite what people say I dont see suicide as "easy' How is it easy to die? sometimes it can be a selfish act depending on the motivation,. but sometimes a person just cant take anymore. Or else there's no one there for them anyway. Or the people that are there dont care,and may be driving them towards this goal anyway through abuse and what not, especially in children.

There really are things some people can't handle. It's fact not theory. Some peoples minds break instantly, others die from grief by ailments from stress and others get so low they can't feel anymore, see straight, and it haunts them years and years and years before they do it. People with certain conditions like severe mania can sometimes spend their entire life with their condition of "misery"

And speaking again on a child if the depression starts that young, many times they shut down and dont grow emotionally as they age.I had experience with this personally through people in mylife. So this means if theyre in their 20s or 30s and never got years of therapy, ect, theyre not going to have the same sort of ...trying to think of how to put this.

Look at it this way: A man or woman with a good life who's strong and always learned to deal with things in a positive way starts having suicidal thoughts.
Because theyve led a good life, and know what hope and happiness is and that it willmost likely get better (and even if they have no one else they have learned to be cntent with just their own company) suicide is unlikely.

But say a child who has never really known happiness grows up, never learned dealing techniques, doesnt have an adult motivational level and not much hope to compare to because they're never had it....well, to me this isn't selfish or weak, it's just sad. And it IS a reality.

As for movies, suicide is usually used as a shocker. Not horror but cocktail is a good example. Sad stuff there, and a great film.

Darn it drawing a blank with other horror films. Darnit. Keep thinking of the hitcher where the killer wanted the other to kill him,as a type of suicide in a way.

[C-Desecration-]

Look at it this way: A man or woman with a good life who's strong and always learned to deal with things in a positive way starts having suicidal thoughts.
Because theyve led a good life, and know what hope and happiness is and that it willmost likely get better (and even if they have no one else they have learned to be cntent with just their own company) suicide is unlikely.

But say a child who has never really known happiness grows up, never learned dealing techniques, doesnt have an adult motivational level and not much hope to compare to because they're never had it....well, to me this isn't selfish or weak, it's just sad. And it IS a reality.

I don't want to try and squirm into the mentality of a suicidal man/woman, but I THINK (I stress that for a reason) that many times suicide isn't such a big deal as the public makes it out to be . . . for the person commiting suicide. There are rarely the cases of some forlorn person weeping while they slit their wrists/whatever that movies tend to exploit for an emotional shot to the face. If someone is going to end their life, chances are it isn't much of a loss in their mind and thus becomes almost a casual thing.
A good year-ish ago I would've called myself suicidal, but not at all in the way 'suicidal' is looked upon (as in, if you call yourself so, you better have dark rings under your eyes, matted hair, secluded life, on drunks, getting drunk, or crying every few hours . . . better yet, all of the above) by our society. Plus, my mentality at the time wasn't "boo-hoo" my life is awful. I laughed plenty, smiled a lot, and actually had quite a bit of fun. Yet regardless I might find myself in the bathroom with a knife.
And no, it wasn't some kind of andolescent drama-fit or whatever some people might instantly assume.
Now like I said above I DON'T want to try and articulate some kind of mental state that applies to all of those who are suicidal because chances are I'd be wrong--it's different every time. Let me just say that once a life becomes worth wasting, there isn't any importance left in it. Suicide is RARELY a snap-decision.

Just as a heads-up, I don't want to discuss if suicide is okey-dokey or whatever . . . that's not what this thread is. I still would like us to stick with its stigma in our society, if that's right or wrong, etc.
Obviously we are going to stray and mention how we feel about suicide, and that's fine--let's just keep in mind what the initial topic is.

[Xipe Totec]

This is in fact a great thread, but at the moment I`m off to a funeral and am not in the mood to read all of your posts and post my oppinions, but I`m sure that if the thread will be up, I`m certainly letting you know my thoughts on this.

[Saruman]

"Suicide is the ultimate 'Fuck You' " - Ginger, Ginger Snaps

[Elgyn]

Suicide to me isn`t 'cowardly' (a coward wouldn`t be able to kill themself).
But it IS very sad.

[TheDeadWalk]

I think its viewed as cowardly in this culture because we look at people as investments to the society. We are capitalists, and view ourselves as investments to the economy. Japan is transformed that way, but they also hold a much different history and religious stigma. But many times when they commited suicide, it was because of shame or embarassment so perhaps it is indeed taking an easy way out - IE: After Japan surrendered in World War 2, MANY Japanese soldiers killed themselves. They refused to live the rest of their lives with that on their shoulders.

But back to the Americas...

We put so much emphasis on individuals and try to give the young people everything we can in life via time, money, pain, compassion and care. We give them everything we can, and just for them to be found hanging in their garage listening to Ozzy Osbourne's Suicide Solution. It's a waste of everything invested into an individual.

It is even said that the pain of birth alone for a mother is rivaled to that of near death. Then the countless hours, teaching, training, money, christmas', and love that is built is just broke down by one simple individualistic action. What took a village a lifetime to do is broken down by one bullet.

[jagged halo]

My mind isn't made up over the issue of suicide. But I KNOW exactly how it devastes family's from the inside out, it's a tragic conclusion for the individual concerned. I think without a doubt for someone who considers this 'way out' they are obviously mentaly ill, I don't mean barking mad, far from it infact. In most cases depression lye's at the heart of the initial problem.

As I've since discovered there are an infinite number of factors as to why somebody would want to end their life. It isn't a decision made on whim, the act itself is completely rationalised by the individual, "everyone would be better off without me" scenario, tragicaly nothing could be further from the truth.

What I would say is for those people who simply dismiss suicide as an act of cowardice and selfishness, think again, you basicaly haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about.

[Cronos]

i dont agree with the stigma surrounding suicide, it is a very sad thing but it is not a weak or pathetic thing to do

one thing i wouldnt say it was is an "easy way out" as it could take a long time before they actually do it and it could cause a lot of emotional pain to the individual as well as family and friends after the act

although i havent been affected by suicide although it is likely at some stage i will and i dont know how ill feel about it then

[jagged halo]

I sincerely hope you never experience suicide during your life time Crono's. I imagine it must take a helluva lot of courage to carry out such a final act of desperation.

[darchangel]

Honor has nothing to do with suicide, not even to the people who die...


Many suicidal people think about their actions days, weeks, months or even years in advance. These people understand all the loved ones they're leaving behind, they understand the consequences of their actions. However, life is so unbearable for them that this is the only way to make it stop...


I was suicidal for a while...I know it's going to sound flaky, but I had this "darkness" that laid in my soul, coated my thoughts and everything I did...I felt like everything I did was for naught. I knew some people would miss me if I died, but overall, I thought it would be better for me if I went...I never thought it was "honorable", as I'm sure most people don't, regardless of what culture they hail from.


You think about the consequences, you understand them...but you can't shake the feeling of hopelessness, no matter how hard you try. You realize how sad it is, how you should fight to stay alive, but you feel as though you can't; it doesn't matter, nothing matters anymore...

I finally managed to resist it as best I could, but I still think about the state of mind I was in...often. I know that there is a whole other state of being for those who are suicidal...like C-Des said, you can be happy, you can laugh...but then there are the times when you feel as though life itself is smothering you and the only way to escape the sadness you feel is to take your own life.

Nobody who's considered suicide thinks of it as honorable or dishonorable...it just slowly becomes more and more of a choice until there is no other option. It engulfs you until it's all you think about and it scares the hell out of you, but you want the darkness inside you to just stop.


Wow....I just got really weird on you guys, huh?



Death to Beth

~darchangel~

[C-Desecration-]

Wow....I just got really weird on you guys, huh?

Have you seen my posts? Yeesh . . .

The 'honorable' stigma is more . . . hmm . . .
I'd say more of a general outlook rather than one's own feelings. Like a society COULD consider suicide honorable. I can totally believe that. For instance, in some hypothetical culture where it is looked upon as 'honorable', if you hear that soandso's brother commited suicide, you'll feel bad for them. BUT, you won't feel the slightest . . . disdain, I'd say, towards that family. In the US (generally), if you hear soandso's brother commited suicide, this instant unease will well up inside of you . . .
That family must be fucked up- have some serious issues - yadda yadda
In the US suicide not only stamps a bad label on the deceased, but also on those related to the deceased.
Then again, that carries over into a lot of acts (I don't want to get into it, but the stigma associated with victims of rape pisses the fuck out of me . . . ). Our stereotypes carry stigmas, but these stigmas are smoke that lingers on everyone nearby, like a stench.

[Elgyn]

I`m not trying to be funny or anything (because there`s nothing funny about this topic), but when people say suicide is "the easy way out", I totally don`t agree.
IMO, there`s nothing "easy" about consciencly making the decision to end your own life. Like I said before, a "coward" couldn`t do it.

But what about an elderly person that dies peacefully in their sleep? Are they "taking the easy way out"?
Because that`s 'easier' than putting a gun in your mouth, or slitting your wrist and waiting to die, ya know?
And again I`m not trying to be funny, just sayin`.

[jagged halo]

How can an elderly person, who dies in their sleep, be taking the 'easy way out' when they've quite clearly died of natural causes???.

[Elgyn]

But it`s a very peaceful way to die. That`s all I`m saying.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by Elgyn
I`m not trying to be funny or anything (because there`s nothing funny about this topic), but when people say suicide is "the easy way out", I totally don`t agree.
IMO, there`s nothing "easy" about consciencly making the decision to end your own life. Like I said before, a "coward" couldn`t do it.

It's not an easy decision to make, but it's easier to off yourself than to actually deal with your problems. I imagine that a suicidal person finds it incredibly difficult to wake up every morning. It would be easier to simply end it all, and harder to keep going.

Why do people kill themselves? Because it's harder not to. By the by, I have no fucking idea what this has to do with horror movies. If this discussion had stemmed from a symposium on suicide-themed genre pics, you could almost justify it. This topic doesn't belong here. I don't want a horror fansite to remind me of reality. Much like the genre itself, it's an outlet for escapism.

[C-Desecration-]

By the by, I have no fucking idea what this has to do with horror movies. If this discussion had stemmed from a symposium on suicide-themed genre pics, you could almost justify it. This topic doesn't belong here. I don't want a horror fansite to remind me of reality. Much like the genre itself, it's an outlet for escapism.

With the escapism bit, that's a moot point. Topics pop up all the time that could remind others of their lives (even that "what the hell is wrong with us" post that I did could fit into that category). Then again, this was what I was worried about when starting the topic, so I'm definatly not going to be mister cold-soul when dealing with such a touchy area.
So I completely understand.

And to the mods, this isn't a discussion on suicide, though it could quickly turn that way. It's the stigma. For instance, there could be a topic discussing the stigma that killers have . . .
In a way, that would have something to do with horror MOVIES, because they are continually portrayed in THIS way and THIS manner and the audience must feel THIS way about them. Admittedly there has been little or no references to actual movies on this thread, but . . .

Well, I can't close threads down. Like Reigh, if it's up I'll continue to reply, and if it's closed I understand.



Back to topic:

It's not an easy decision to make, but it's easier to off yourself than to actually deal with your problems.

WHether true or not, that's not exactly what Elgyn was saying, I think. He (like me) thinks that a cowardly person would not be able to end their life. Because it takes guts and some balls to be able to go through it. Not that I'm trying to glorify suicide, just disagreeing with how our society calls it "cowardly" . . .

[Elgyn]

Originally posted by countchocula
It's not an easy decision to make, but it's easier to off yourself than to actually deal with your problems. I imagine that a suicidal person finds it incredibly difficult to wake up every morning. It would be easier to simply end it all, and harder to keep going.


I see what you mean, and in a way I agree.............but what I meant was that a true 'coward' would not be able to actually put the gun in his/her mouth and pull the trigger.
Man, this is a pretty grim topic, huh?

[ERIN_LoJ]

Im surprised it isnt closed down either.

But I have to say I'm in awe; seriously impressed with what everyone is saying. Almost all views on suicide or mental illness I have encounted have come off so ignorant. There was a statisic that like 40 to something higher % of Americans thought depression was just some sort of weakness. Which is ridiculous.

Everyone is sounding so intelligent here with their insights, really they are

[jagged halo]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
And to the mods, this isn't a discussion on suicide, though it could quickly turn that way.

Back to topic:


WHether true or not, that's not exactly what Elgyn was saying, I think. He (like me) thinks that a cowardly person would not be able to end their life. Because it takes guts and some balls to be able to go through it. Not that I'm trying to glorify suicide, just disagreeing with how our society calls it "cowardly" . . .

But this isn't a discussion on suicide you say? :rolleyes:

[rilocay]

All ill say is, if a tennager is depresed and doesnt tell anyone or try and get ANY help, and the suiceide, they are selfish and cowardly in the way that they didnt try and help themselves out or anything by not talkin to family or whatver,. I know its hard for them, but if you look at ti in the family and friends view sad isnt the only way thyl feel.

[dellamorte dellamore]

This really should be in the Sucide Circle thread in foreign horror , that's a film that deals with Sucide in a somewhat intelligent , if " whimsical " and satirical way .

Why would someone do it , i really can't say , but i don't think there is any honor whatsoever in doing it , it's like trying to will your fate , the ultimate rebellion against " God " .

You didn't have any control over your birth , so now you want to control the terms of your death , it's a control issue , only someone that's obsessed with controlling every little aspect of their lives would engage in suicide , in some situations , maybe that's why you see a lot of overachieving perfectionists taking their own life . If they only realized there are some things you have no control over , you can only suffer through them gracefully , maybe they would have come to their senses .


This to them , is the final , " perfect " act of control . They controlled their destiny by ending their life .


Sometimes that's still not enough , and they feel the need to take other people with them . In that case controlling their own destiny wasn't enough , they wanted to dictate other persons also . You know that psychotic husband who kills his whole family , and then himself , because his wife left him .

[jagged halo]

Originally posted by rilocay
All ill say is, if a tennager is depresed and doesnt tell anyone or try and get ANY help, and the suiceide, they are selfish and cowardly in the way that they didnt try and help themselves out or anything by not talkin to family or whatver,. I know its hard for them, but if you look at ti in the family and friends view sad isnt the only way thyl feel.

A lot of teenagers don't discuss their problems with family members,because they probably feel they can't, sadly.

[Romero&Juliet]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-

In a way, that would have something to do with horror MOVIES, because they are continually portrayed in THIS way and THIS manner and the audience must feel THIS way about them. Admittedly there has been little or no references to actual movies on this thread, but . . .



You've got a hell of a point.

This is, in my opinion, very relative to the genre.. the idea that an audience going into a horror film adopt a sort of provisional set of morals with which they can judge the actions of characters: tackling gruesome subject matter, watching other humans being ripped apart, rooting for the badguy. That's almost like an exercise in how you think about really terrible things.

Take Henry: POASK, for example. The protagonist is a disgusting human being, but alot of times, we're being led to sympathize with him.

Is that healthy? Does rooting for a sicko and hoping he finds happiness make us really weird people?

Well, there's reasoning behind his murders and you do get to know enough about the guy - and that kind of (well, absurd) thinking is what I'm talking about. Yo cant walk out of these movies without learning something.


From reading this thread and the very, very open-minded responses its been getting, you'd have to assume that mabye there's something in the horror water..

[jagged halo]

There's a BIG difference between sympathizing with Henry and condoning his actions, which from what I can gather you're not.

[TheDeadWalk]

Has anyone read sociologist Emile Durkheim's work, "Suicide" ?

Its a bit ancient, around the time of the industrial revolution. I studied it a little bit in Socio class, but never actually read the true work.

Durkheim suggested that there was a correlation between Suicides and Protestants (IE: Non-Catholic Christians). Around this time, people were working for themselves at incredible hours at a time, with very limited time off. If they didn't work, they starved to death, but the most important thing was that in the Protestant religion, you view yourself as an individual with an individualistic spirit for the good of God.

Other geographical areas such as Japan, or perhaps even China, there is actually a lower suicide rate. Also over there the culture and religion does not treat everyone as individuals but as a part of the "team". Workers are called "associates", and treated as such. An individual doesn't falter, a team does. So when problems arise, there is not so much emphasis on one's own problems, as there would be for a Protestant. When you view yourself as a minute individual in the world that doesn't amount to anything, you see your life and reason for being in a minimal circumstance.

Looking at yourself as a part of the "Big Picture", and being a substantial part of society increases self-esteem, and lowers the probability of suicide.

[ERIN_LoJ]

Originally posted by rilocay
All ill say is, if a tennager is depresed and doesnt tell anyone or try and get ANY help, and the suiceide, they are selfish and cowardly in the way that they didnt try and help themselves out or anything by not talkin to family or whatver,. I know its hard for them, but if you look at ti in the family and friends view sad isnt the only way thyl feel.

It depends on the situation to me. Also the sad thing is that even when a person tries to get help through doctors, meds, ect, it doesnt help. Or help enough. There's still so much to understand about the brain. After all, if we only use 10% of our braisn how can we ever come to understand the whole thing?? :D

[ERIN_LoJ]

Originally posted by Romero&Juliet



From reading this thread and the very, very open-minded responses its been getting, you'd have to assume that mabye there's something in the horror water..


??? That's certainly an interesting statement lol.
As for me being open minded to it it's from personal experience. I guess now of days a lot of us have some sort of experience with this through someone known or that happened to us. Then again maybe we're just all openminded as hell and intelligent to boot :D

[The Arrow]

This has NOTHING to do with horror entertainment. Topic closed