PETA

[quoth_the_raven]

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA)- how do you all feel about them?

First of all, an angler/fisherman, I am against their belief that fishing is a bloodsport. They have very little to support them...its now been shown that fish do not feel pain, by something called the rose report. Thats knocked a hell of a lot of the wind out of their sails right there. The fact that anglers have a positive impact on the environment and do more to help preserve fish stocks through reporting of pollution or disease is just a bonus. The fact that the majority of pleasure angling is now catch and release has escaped them. I own all sorts of fish care items...forceps, unhooking mat etc. and with a bit of thought, and a bit of speed, its possible to return a fish with no damage at all. That level of care is not conclusive of a bloodsport, and I feel thats a miscategorisation.

From my understanding, they also wish us to release all of our pets and become vegan. I'm not saying a word there, but its a very extreme step to take. Especially the food issue- we are made to be omnivorous, its all in the teeth. Besides, I'm all for people choosing to be vegan...but, the idea of being told what I have to eat by what boils down to a corporate entity, thats going too far!

In a lot of respects, I do agree with PETA. I am against the things that I see as bloodsports, and I have a deep hatred for people who deliberately beat/torture/abuse animals. But the way they operate is also an issue to me. They are very much about what another schmoe has described as ambush and name calling...that is no way to get changes made. they also have a habit of ignoring honest independant science that disproves them on some issues, ie. fishing and the rose report.

anyway enough of my rambling on, what do you all think of PETA?

[Grebdron]

I'm split on them. Often they say things I agree with, but just as often they're completely whacked out.

Meh, on PETA.

People Eating Tasty Animals

[badberry]

Oh man, do not get my started on these guys...

Their basic message is of course, fine, but they take it way too far to the extreme and their methods are absolutely disgusting. Some of the ads I've seen from them make me want to punch whoever came up with them in the face. Comparing pigs and chickens to serial killer victims (this actually got pulled due to complaints) or even the goddamn Holocaust...piss off! Their ad campaigns exist solely to make people feel so guilty about eating meat that they'll stop and become vegan or some shit, and it makes them lose all credibility in my eyes. I like meat, and I don't like being told I'm a bad person because of that. They're way too extremist for my liking. Remember when they went to schoolyards and tried to convince kids that drinking milk was bad? Assholes.

A quote from PETA President Ingrid Newkirk: "Even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."

An interesting idea on vegetarians by good ole Maddox (http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html)....:D

Or another... (http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html)

Whoops, guess I got started after all....:)

[bob]

To tell you the absolute truth, I could care less what happens to animals. As I see it, humans are the only really important thing on this earth.

Also, animal rights activists are by and large the most irritating people in the world.

[blankpage]

The idea of it is okay, at best. We are sharing the planet with them, but it all comes back to this food chain thing. We need to eat, we eat what we can eat. I mean, some of them are really screwed up, extremists really. They take it too far sometimes. Sure, hunting for sport, or killing an animal for personal satisfaction may not be my cup o' tea, but dealing with food...please. They'll complain about anything.

So, I'm not a fan of them. Some of the ideas I agree with, but only some. They're off in a world of their own.

[Tom Samborski]

I'm all for animal rights, but I think PETA goes waaaaaay too far in trying to push them. And I agree, fishing is not a bloodsport just as long as there's enough fish in the river, lake, or ocean.

[Raoul Duke]

Well, I'm an animal lover. But I don't take it to extreme and stupid places like PETA. Comparing animal slaughtering for food to the Holocaust? Piss off!

I also don't like vegans...There's one in my business class and she freaks out every time our teacher mentions meat. Those canine teeth, the two sharp ones in the front are there to tear through meat! Not celery!

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by bob
To tell you the absolute truth, I could care less what happens to animals. As I see it, humans are the only really important thing on this earth.

I'm sorry to hear that. I respectfully disagree.

I think PETA does a lot of really good things for animals (ie increasing the fines/sentences on owners who violently abuse their pets) but unfortunately sometimes their over-the-top antics distract from their genuine intentions. Still, I certainly support them as a whole.

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by flowrchild
I'm sorry to hear that. I respectfully disagree.

I think PETA does a lot of really good things for animals (ie increasing the fines/sentences on owners who violently abuse their pets) but unfortunately sometimes their over-the-top antics distract from their genuine intentions. Still, I certainly support them as a whole.

Exactly. I mean, who is going to listen to your IMPORTANT message if you throw red paint on Beyonce for wearing a fur coat (just hypothetical)? If they wised up to the fact that subtle is sometimes more effective, I would wholeheartedly support them.

[bmain77]

As a couple of others have mentioned above, I could also go hours and hours about how wrong they are. They views on hunting and fishing are seriously flawed.

That being said anyone who intentionally hurts and tortures an animal (well except for cats of course:D ) deserve to be treated the same way. But I really do think the vast majority of people probably feel that way and we don't need such a radical organization mucking it up for animal activists that are actually a little reasonable in their beliefs.

[jeo4]

I think that animals deserve humane treatment. I think that testing and keeping of lab animals should be limited. I look at pets as friends and somewhat like family. I do not, however, condone most of PETA's guerrilla tactics and beligerent attitudes about fur and meat consumption. If their goal is to show people that animals need care and humane treatment in much the same way as humans, then education and coordinated efforts to lobby citizens and government are much more effective than humiliating others in public or suing them in court. And throwing blood or paint on someone for their choice of attire is cruel and unusual. Fur and hides were human clothing before woven fabric was. To down someone for wearing them, or to ruin what they wear because they disagree is just disgraceful. If PETA insists on maintaining such petty views, then I doubt that they will affect positive change or even become a respected organization. If they persist in their current behavior, then I hope they are disbanded soon.

[TheDeadWalk]

Fuck PETA.


We could actually solve problems like World hunger by having humans take more of an effort to replace some of the other carnivores in the food chain.

Starving Ethiopians or the California Condor?

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by flowrchild
I'm sorry to hear that. I respectfully disagree.

I think PETA does a lot of really good things for animals (ie increasing the fines/sentences on owners who violently abuse their pets) but unfortunately sometimes their over-the-top antics distract from their genuine intentions. Still, I certainly support them as a whole.

Same here.

Oh, and re: we're omnivorous and the rest. That may be, but we can live a happy, healthy life WITHOUT eating animal flesh.

It's all down to personal choice...I now choose to 'just say no' a la the Grange Hill gang.

Errr, wasn't The Rose Report disproved...

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm)

More disturbing info' from AnimalLiberation.Org (http://www.animalliberation.org.au/fishrec.html)

" For many, many years we have been anti-angling.

This study is just another one proving that what we have been saying is true - fish are capable of feeling pain.

They may not be as cute or cuddly as a cat or dog, but they still feel pain and want to avoid it just like us.

For years anglers have been using the defence that fish can't feel pain, but there is nothing sporting about tricking a small animal into death by hooking a sharp implement into its mouth.

You can't ignore the fact that at the end of the line is a terrified animal in a desperate struggle for its life..."

That just about sums it up for me.

PAIN...PANIC...it's just aint sport.

[quoth_the_raven]

BCV- you're relying on the Sneddon report? Bad move.

Its poor science, and Professor Rose has disproved it via the study of the nervous system of fish. Basically, pain has two aspects, a physical and an emotional. Fish are not developed enough to feel this emotional aspect. They exhibited a stress reaction only...which is unsurprising after they had been injected with a poisonous substance. But was there pain? No-fish do not have brains developed enough to feel something as complex as pain.

I'll round this part off with a quote from the self same bbc article you posted by Dr Bruno Broughton, who is a leading figure in fishery management in this country.

"However, it is an entirely different matter to draw conclusions about the ability of fish to feel pain, a psychological experience for which they literally do not have the brains." i think thats says it all.

if there was any actual solid proof that angling caused pain, any reliable scientific evidence at all, I think you would see a sharp drop off in the number of anglers.

heres another thought. PETA are quite willing to support the work done in the Sneddon report, but stand against animal testing? Interesting...I'd certainly expect them to be against deliberate injection of poisons into trout. Hypocritical? you decide.

Fish are capable of being "stressed" for want of a better word, but this should not be equated with pain. But this is easily minimised through proper handling, which is something that is taught within the sport.
Unhooking mats, forceps, quick unhooking and release, treatment with antiseptics? It may surpise you to learn this, but anglers take a great deal of care of their catch.

As for death BCV- you're repeating propoganda in the hysterical style of PETA. Catch and release is very much the thing to do now. Some anglers take fish for the table- normally done in a quick way. I don't. I have my limits. But I wonder how many people you know who said fishing is cruel, but don't think about where their battered cod came from? The simple fact is that a huge majority of anglers now stand by a quick unhooking and return.

There is no death and no pain therefore.

Plus think about the enviromental aspects here. Anglers spend an awful long time picking up other peoples litter- more often than not anglers. Who watches our rivers and lakes for pollution? Anglers. If you saw a huge waste dump, would you the environment agency phone number in your mobile? Probably not.

PETA raise some good points, on fox hunting, true bloodsports and animal testing. On fishing though, they've missed the point totally. Or maybe the point missed them.

Anyway, I think I've gone miles off topic so I think I'll shut up now ;) if you want to carry on the angling/anti-angling debate, PM me, so we don't drag this topic away from PETA bashing ;)

[Benny]

I think PETA is one of the worst groups in the country. They certainly have the right to speak out for animal rights, but the ways that they do it are awful and ridiculous. They make me want to eat a big flank steak everytime I hear about their latest antics on the news. They give a bad name to vegetarians and vegans everywhere. Telling kids to drink beer instead of milk is really dumb, and linking milk to Rudy Giuliani's prostate cancer a few years ago was just hateful.

I have many friends who are vegetatirans and vegans (I don't know why... :rolleyes: ), and they all think PETA is a terrible group as well.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
They exhibited a stress reaction only...which is unsurprising after they had been injected with a poisonous substance. But was there pain? No-fish do not have brains developed enough to feel something as complex as pain.

So what's the point of causing the creature undue 'stress' in the name of sport?

Just curious...

I mean, it's clear to see that fish feel FEAR...in the throes of death, they appear to writhe, gasp and flap their gills...quite obviously fighting for oxygen. Suffice to say, this must be quite the terrifying experience.

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
Fish are capable of being "stressed" for want of a better word, but this should not be equated with pain. But this is easily minimised through proper handling, which is something that is taught within the sport.
Unhooking mats, forceps, quick unhooking and release, treatment with antiseptics? It may surpise you to learn this, but anglers take a great deal of care of their catch.

I appreciate the fact that YOU acknowledge 'guidelines' and whatnot...but is this the norm? I imagine many anglers aren't quite so particular when handling the 'stressed' little fishy.

Here's some interesting tidbits from a PRO-angling forum:


"i know of a guy who will literally throw the fish back in the water when unhooked, it makes me cringe everytime, even tho ive told him time after time (i even told him that slipping the fish back would cause less disturbance to other feeding fish, but to no avail, he still throws anything up to a lb from the hip) needless to say, i avoid fishing with him."


"Here's a disturbing little fact for you Chris. With the exception of the few dedicated Trout and Bass Anglers I know most anglers here where I live throw the fish back into the water no matter what species! I won't even go into the details of how the average angler here handles a deeply hooked fish! You should see the looks the boys and I get over the "extreme measures" we take to release our fish."


"Other forums have shied away from this issue. So I'm going to say it...Some folks who 'fish' are cruel mindless idiots who have no concern for anything other than their own pleasure. This accusation can also be pointed at elements of the tackle trade who encourage them with inadequate 'instant' kits etc"


"They may not feel 'pain' as such and have very short (valium) memories but how they're handled will directly affect their recovery and thereby their health. Badly handled fish will 'sulk' (far too emotive a term but you get the idea) and will be in bad condition. It'll be so ill it won't have the energy to compete and eat ... and that's what fish do best. As anglers that's what we want them to do isn't it?

In extreme cases such bad handling will cause the fish to die in its sulky state. It also becomes vulnerable to disease for all of the reasons given above. It then becomes a liabilty (a disease carrier) for the rest of the fish around (that's why predators are necessary and have evolved)."


Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
But I wonder how many people you know who said fishing is cruel, but don't think about where their battered cod came from? The simple fact is that a huge majority of anglers now stand by a quick unhooking and return.

I don't really know anybody who gives a shiny shite funnily enough.

Fish aint fluffy kittens...so why give a toss?

Don't get me wrong Quoth...your arguments are completely solid, I think we should just agree to disagree here.

[quoth_the_raven]

BCV- if something is incapable of emotional thought, can it really feel fear?

The stress level is something that the majority of anglers do take pains to minimise. I accept there are people who are that mindless, but its become more and more rare these days, and its a good reason for the tutoring schemes out there. Fish care is a central aspect now, and it really is pushed onto anglers, rightly so in my opinion. Its needed. With this right treatment, you can avoid the stress that causes the sulky state, and there is no damage to the fish.

i see your point, and you are right, we won't agree on this, much as you won't ever admit that kill bill was a pile o'shite ;) But thank you for being reasonable and not waving rhetoric in my face. its nice to discuss the issue with someone who is willing to be mature.

[JohnTheHenchman]

It's people like PETA that drove me to eat meat again.

Seriously, I don't understand their crusade and frankly, it sickens me.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
I also don't like vegans...There's one in my business class and she freaks out every time our teacher mentions meat.

You know one bad example of a Vegan and therefore dislike the entire group of people? How unbiased.
:rolleyes:

[Tweek]

Meh, I dislike extremists of any group and PETA is no exception.


Fishing really seems cruel to me. You lure the animal to the bait, then get it on your hook and stop it from breathing. That's really a shitty way to go. I don't eat fish for that reason.

But I eat other meat... Have to or I'll die and/or get dementia from being anemic.

[badberry]

Originally posted by SLAW
You know one bad example of a Vegan and therefore dislike the entire group of people? How unbiased.
:rolleyes:

Well I agree, vegans in general are pretty irritating. He didn't say he knew only one, he just listed one example. If they would just do their thing without being all preachy and whiny about it all the time, that would be different. They'd still be slightly wacko in my eyes, but I'd have more respect for them.

Glad to see most others here agree that PETA should go to hell and die :)

[RicochetShaw]

I'm a level 5 vegan, I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

[bob]

I'd like to clarify my earlier statement.

I'm not for the senseless torturing of animals, i.e. the recent problem we had in Denver with a man burning animals for no reason.

My stance is as such:

A human's needs are more important than an animal's. If a human wants to eat, I say let them eat an animal. If they think they'll look better with a leather jacket or mink coar, I say let them have it.

Of course, I can easily see how someone would disagree, and I can completely understand their stance.

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by badberry
Well I agree, vegans in general are pretty irritating. He didn't say he knew only one, he just listed one example. If they would just do their thing without being all preachy and whiny about it all the time, that would be different.

You know, I'm getting really tired of people classifying all vegans, vegetarians, etc as one big bunch of annoying preachy whiners. Just because you know a couple of people who fit this description, doesn't mean that it's a fair assessment for everyone in the group. It is that kind of mentality that spawns racism and other ignorance, so be careful with that.

I am a Vegetarian and I can tell you that I have never once lectured anyone for eating meat, wearing leather, or anything of the sort. I live my life and other people can live theirs however they choose without judgement. On the contrast, I have been harassed numerous times for MY lifestyle by meat-eaters. I've been told many things such as "vegetarianism is an eating disorder", "animals don't have feelings, have a bite of my burger", etc. I was even told by my school nurse in highschool that I would not be able to have children if I was a vegetarian, which is a complete fallacy.

In other words, there are good and bad examples of every type of person. So please stop lumping people together so easily.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by SLAW
You know one bad example of a Vegan and therefore dislike the entire group of people? How unbiased.
:rolleyes:

I agree, the statement was somewhat biased. However, I don't think that he was supposed to meet some sort of example quota. I think you assumed he only knew one vegetarian.

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
I think you assumed he only knew one vegetarian.

Even if he knew a whopping 10 vegetarians, there are millions on the planet. No matter how many he knows, it's not even close to enough to warrant a statement that general.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by flowrchild
You know, I'm getting really tired of people classifying all vegans, vegetarians, etc as one big bunch of annoying preachy whiners. Just because you know a couple of people who fit this description, doesn't mean that it's a fair assessment for everyone in the group. It is that kind of mentality that spawns racism and other ignorance, so be careful with that.

I am a Vegetarian and I can tell you that I have never once lectured anyone for eating meat, wearing leather, or anything of the sort. I live my life and other people can live theirs however they choose without judgement. On the contrast, I have been harassed numerous times for MY lifestyle by meat-eaters. I've been told many things such as "vegetarianism is an eating disorder", "animals don't have feelings, have a bite of my burger", etc. I was even told by my school nurse in highschool that I would not be able to have children if I was a vegetarian, which is a complete fallacy.

In other words, there are good and bad examples of every type of person. So please stop lumping people together so easily.

Right on flowr.

I stopped eating meat mere months ago...but I'll happily sit and converse with friends and family as they tuck into steaks and fry-up's. Who am I to preach?

You just can't tar us all with the same brush, end of.

[TheDeadWalk]

That's probably because you never hear about vegetarians that aren't rubbing it in your face. I may have met 25 of them or more, but can only think of two people in my life that went vegetarian and didn't try to rub it in your face. Its those that brand the bad stereotype, because only in places like this - a private message forum - do the non-preaching vegetarians speak out for themselves.

But its like the PETA video "meet your meat" which encourages you to show all of your friends, and states:

"The best thing you can do for animals, as this video makes clear, is to go vegan."
(meetyourmeat.com)

That's what gets rubbed into the noses of people, and that is what they will remember; being told that they are wrong and horrible for eating meat.

[Lynn Minmei]

The president of PETA was once quoted as saying that even if animal research could cure AIDs, she would be against it.

So fuck her, and fuck PETA. What a worthless waste of a cause.

[chilli pepper]

Well, I dont HATE vegans per say but the majority i've met have managed to bug the living hell out of me with this or that so much so the point that I really dont want much to do with those folks after that initial meeting.On to PETA , most of the time these people just go WAY too far with those adverts and such like the whole chicken/ holocaust thing, that reminds me of a story on the news about when peta came to town with the aformentioned disaplays and had set them up on the steps of the capital building. The story was about when a man your average Joe Schmoe if you will (:D) showed up and was more less just stating his belives at first (all were more or less AGIANST Peta, by the way) but this slowly escalates into things you schmoes have said like:It's people like PETA that drove me to eat meat again. or: I think PETA is one of the worst groups in the country. but heres the clincher....he was eating some chicken nuggets while he was saying all of this :D. But there is a program peta runs on my local public access that show idiotic hillbilly farmers beating and beating pigs and cows and chickens and such with crowbars and bats along with their feet and fists and this shit is absolutely VILE and it literally pains me to watch it at most times.So I DO support PETA in terms of getting things like that stopped but everything else if there agianst finding a cure for aids if it involves hurting an animal..... FUCK'EM.

[SLAW]

I have to say that there is a lot of stereotyping in this thread. People who choose not to eat meet are normal people too. Some may preach a cause and others do not.

And whoever said we're more important than any other species? ;)

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by SLAW
And whoever said we're more important than any other species? ;)

We did ;) Of course, one might say that is biased since we're the only species that can verbalize this arrogance.

P.S. Tolerance is a good quality to possess.

[cstroman]

PETA is a religion to those who adhere to it, just without the "deity" aspect and should be limited and have as many rights legally as religions do.

End of story.

[cstroman]

And whoever said we're more important than any other species?
I do. I think if a Pitbull attacks a child and I am standing there with a gun, I will shoot the pitbull because the Human population has a right to life greater than that of the pitbull.

Anyone who doesn't put humans above animals is attempting to "de-evolutionize" the human race back into "ape" status. Go ahead and be my guest, but don't try to force you degenerative view on those who do not want to be apes again.

I like meat. I don't like to hunt and never have (I have fished before) but there's nothing wrong with controlled hunting, fishing or "gaming" in my opinion as long as habitat and species preservation is maintained.

I don't see anyone yelling "SAVE THE FLIES! SAVE THE FLIES and LOCUSTS!"

And it's because insects and mammals fall into different categories in animal planet.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by cstroman
[B]I do. I think if a Pitbull attacks a child and I am standing there with a gun, I will shoot the pitbull because the Human population has a right to life greater than that of the pitbull.

If a human is attacking a child and I am holding a gun, then I will shoot that person.

Anyone who doesn't put humans above animals is attempting to "de-evolutionize" the human race back into "ape" status. Go ahead and be my guest, but don't try to force you degenerative view on those who do not want to be apes again.

You really think that's the case?

I like meat. I don't like to hunt and never have (I have fished before) but there's nothing wrong with controlled hunting, fishing or "gaming" in my opinion as long as habitat and species preservation is maintained.

I like meat too. I just have no will power to stop eating it. But yeah, no point in hunting for sport. Very barberic in my degenerate view.

I don't see anyone yelling "SAVE THE FLIES! SAVE THE FLIES and LOCUSTS!"

What is happening to the flies?

[cstroman]

If a human is attacking a child and I am holding a gun, then I will shoot that person.
And your decision is based on....? (I'm not argueing the point, just your basis for it) Internal Reflection....I love it.



You really think that's the case?

Then you list the differences that define a human and and ANY other animal, and when you come to "morals" let me know how those figure in both cases and then tell me what direction your "moral" compass is pointing and if that is more in line with the animal kingdom or is separate from it.


I like meat too. I just have no will power to stop eating it. But yeah, no point in hunting for sport. Very barberic in my degenerate view.

Again, I don't hunt either, but who am I to say it's wrong? Or you for that matter? Natural law would say that since we evolved to harness guns, then that gives us the right and if the animals don't want to be exterminated, then they have to evolve to the point of fighting back (not very likely). I don't think any other animal is even close to moving past humans and so you have to develop some ethics and morals with regard to how we decide.

Science can't provide that for us. Only humans can. Science is ALL cause and effect. Not "right or wrong". Only human morals and ethics can define what effects/causes are wrong and which ones are right.
What is happening to the flies?
They're getting zapped by by bug zapper.

Not very humane is it?

[SLAW]

Right, and since we have such high socially constructed morals, we should kill whatever we want.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by cstroman
I do. I think if a Pitbull attacks a child and I am standing there with a gun, I will shoot the pitbull because the Human population has a right to life greater than that of the pitbull.

True.

But if I saw a grown man kicking a dog, I'd be temped to take him out too...and I aint talking G&T's and a sneaky feel of my dirty pillows.

I don't quite understand why people feel the need to justify their eating habits. You DON'T HAVE TO eat animal's, simple as. YOU CHOOSE TO...and more power to you if you're straight-up about it.

I don't eat meat for many reasons, the animal part is just the tip of the iceberg.

So what?

You eat meat. I don't.

But this food-chain chat irks me no end.

Food-chain, schmood-chain. You like steak and bacon, who doesn't?

Ya dig?

[JohnTheHenchman]

I would say it is more of a choice to not eat meat, then it is to eat it, simply because of nature.

I made the choice to be vegan for two years, but then under all the stress I went back to what was natural for me, because it was too much too deal with.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
I would say it is more of a choice to not eat meat, then it is to eat it, simply because of nature.

I made the choice to be vegan for two years, but then under all the stress I went back to what was natural for me, because it was too much too deal with.

I respect that.

What I'm trying to say, in a round-about way...NOBODY eats meat simply because their gnashers are shaped a certain way, or because they feel obligated to do so since they're bigger and smarter than all the other animals...so why use that as justification?

People eat meat because it's damn tasty...+ nutritional requirements and all that stuff.

The majority of individual's can live a healthy life without meat, but they have EVERY right to feed themselves as they see fit.

[BubbaStrangelove]

PETA is for people who were too chicken shit to egg houses as a kid. Now they are older, and want to cause mischief in the name of some issue. Fuck Peta.

While I'm at it, fuck the cure for AIDS too. haha. Yeah! Not really.... Yeah! No...

And I prefer to take my vegans on a vegan by vegan basis. It highly increases my chances of being an upstanding dude.