Abortion!!!

[countchocula]

NOTE: I'm not sure if this topic should be broached in this forum. Feel free to close it should you deem it necessary.

This should be all sorts of fun. I'm pro-choice, and if I were a woman, I would want the government to stay out of my vagina. Also, I'm not convinced that a fetus is a person. If I were to ask someone how old they were, they wouldn't factor in the nine months they spent in their mother's womb, would they? Yeah, I know it's a birthday, but shouldn't our ages be adjusted accordingly? I mean, if we're alive in the womb and all?

My uber-religious aunt is about as pro-life as anyone could ever be. I wonder how she would feel if her daughter was raped by someone infected with AIDS.

[Tom Samborski]

Ah, the dreaded "A" word.

I support abortion, but only during the beginning stages of fetal development, mainly because the fetus is only a few measly cells.

[Annie Hall]

I feel really strongly about abortion.

I'm a chick, and if I didn't think I was a capable mother I don't see why I should be forced to put my body or emotions through such a stressful process. I don't think that, were I to decide this early on in the pregnancy, I should be forced to live out these 9 months just preparing myself to put a baby up for adoption. It would be painful not only for me, but very possibly for the child.

Abortion being illegal would not STOP abortion from happening, just put it in an unhealthy and possibly life-threatening environment for the woman AND the baby.

I believe-also- that at a certain point abortion becomes wrong. But in the very early stages of pregnancy, I agree that it should be allowed to exist.

[Morgana]

Oooh... possibly THE most controversial topic. ;)

I'm pro-choice. No-one is going to tell me what I should be doing with my body, least of all the government. I do believe in responsible contraception first and foremost. However, accidents do happen. And so do pregnancies due to rapes. If I got pregnant as a result of a rape and abortion was illegal, I swear, I would get that fetus out with a coathanger myself. No way in HELL would I ever carry such a child to term. And no-one could force me to.

[SLAW]

I am for reproductive rights for all people. I am for a woman's right to choose and I don't have to ejaculate if I don't want to. I firstly recommend condoms, the pill, diaphrams, and the morning after pill way before I recommend abortion. I think most people on both sides of the issue would agree with me on that one. That it's a last resort, but the choice is there. I am mostly for choice because I see no benefits of having nurseries or hospitals wall to wall with screaming unwanted babies. Hooray for orphanes! Hooray for foster homes! Hooray for poverty! Hooray for wealfare!

[JohnTheHenchman]

I refuse to label myself and when it comes to abortion, the two labels are ridiculous...anti-abortion is called pro-life but pro-abortion is actually called pro-choice? give me a break, it's just pro-abortion, no need to sugar coat it.

In all honesty, I pretty much see rape as the only reason to get an abortion. Yes, accidents do happen, and if the proper precautionary measures were met and a child was still conceived, then I suppose I agree with that too.

What I find it funny is that when people have children they didn't plan, it's called an accident. You were having sex, the means by which we reproduce, it was no accident, it was only nature. If people only had sex when they were ready to reproduce, then abortion would be much less of an issue.

[Grebdron]

Nobody should ever be able to prevent anybody from having any type of abortion, period.

[BadCoverVersion]

Your body is your own, life aint always peachy creamy...I have NO right to judge, simple as.

I don't favour multiple terminations as a form of contraceptive.

Bill says it best...

You know who's really bugging me these days. These pro-lifers...You ever look at their faces? 'I'm pro-life!' 'I'm pro-life!' Boy, they look it don't they? They just exude joie de vivre. You just want to hang with them and play Trivial Pursuit all night long. You know what bugs me about them? If you're so pro-life, do me a favour - don't lock arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries. Let's see how committed you are to this idea.

Yes, I'm PRO-CHOICE.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
I refuse to label myself and when it comes to abortion, the two labels are ridiculous...anti-abortion is called pro-life but pro-abortion is actually called pro-choice? give me a break, it's just pro-abortion, no need to sugar coat it.

Being pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with the practice of abortion. All it means is that you believe that a woman has the right to choose whether or not she wants an abortion.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Yeah - I'm for killing people. Seriously, I support the death penalty.

This is the most ironic thing about most of the politicians that support the death penalty is that they are against abortion.

Who was the comedian that pointed out: Sure, wait for the unwed crack head mother to have her baby, raise it in a life of poverty and devastation. Then, when the kid drops out of school, starts selling guns to terrorist, and then kills a school bus full of chilldren -- Okay, now we can kill them.

It's a religeous issue, and the state should stay out of it -- If the state outlaws abortion, they need to at least start providing free vascectomys and mascectomys, or whatever they need to do to enable people who don't want kids to not have kids. They won't even allow condoms to be passed out in schools. And it's the same pablum puckers who won't allow abortion. It sucks! Hey, let's not do anything to prevent -- except prevent solutions.

[flowrchild]

I am definitely pro-choice. I don't think I have the right to tell anyone else what they should do with their bodies, the same way I wouldn't want anyone telling me what to do with mine. And I ESPECIALLY don't want the government deciding this for us.

One thing I hate are people who make it seem like we are "pro-abortion" and gung ho about the whole ordeal. No, not really. Nobody who is pro-choice is running around wearing "I love abortion" t-shirts. It's a very unpleasant action but it's something that I feel should be legal because we have the right to reproductive freedom.

[Tweek]

To me it depends on the circumstances.

If a woman is impregnated during a rape and she wants to have the child aborted, then yes.

Personally, if I were pregnant and a condom failed, I'd give the baby up for adoption.

But abortion shouldn't be used as birth control. There's a reason for condoms and pills and whatnot. If you want to sleep around use those.

[SLAW]

A question I always ponder is why not give people the freedom of choice instead of banning everything. If you're against abortion, don't have an abortion. If you're against gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same gender as you (lets not get into the gay thing here though). You don't want to get shot at, then well...errr!

[notchreturns]

A lady should have the right to choose what is done with her body.

[Fisting Ackbar]

While I feel more inclined to agree on the fact that it is murder, I'm pro-choice due to the fact of rapes (as has been mentioned) and because I don't want stupid people who are unfit for parenting bring another unwanted person in this already overpopulated world.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Rape is a clear cut case where abortion should be an alternative. Incest, drug addiction, and genetic damage are also good arguements.

[bob]

Originally posted by Grebdron
Nobody should ever be able to prevent anybody from having any type of abortion, period.

Take it to the house, Grebdron!!

Ahem.

Needless to say, I agree. I am for abortions under any circumstance at any time.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Yeah, I don't think anyone should be able to force a woman to not have an abortion, it is wrong...but it's my opinion that those having sex should be using whatever precautions neccessary. I don't personally find abortion acceptable if say a couple enjoys having sex sans any sort of birth control, abortion is a quick fix to the situation.

I guess what I'm trying to say that morally I think it is usually wrong, but legally a woman should be able to do with as she pleases. I believe the government has too much power over things they shouldn't to begin with, a person's body is just ridiculous, though.

[ANavissi500]

As liberal as I am, I cannot condone abortion. The killing of an innocent life because of irresponsibility of a parent should never be condoned. Only in extreme situations like rape or endangerment of the mother should the idea even be broached. The trick is when you can make those exceptions. I have learned, as I have grown up, that life is full of gray areas, and this is no exception. All that I know is that abortion prevents people from learning what I have.

[charliebobo]

Originally posted by Grebdron
Nobody should ever be able to prevent anybody from having any type of abortion, period.

Yup.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by ANavissi500
All that I know is that abortion prevents people from learning what I have.


Just because you can learn from something, doesn't mean it's a good thing. I'm sure crackheads learn lots of things that people who decide not to smoke crack never learn, but that hardly condones crack use.




Only in extreme situations like rape or endangerment of the mother should the idea even be broached.Only in extreme situations like rape or endangerment of the mother should the idea even be broached.



Like anything else in America, I don't think you can limit access to something, just based on when people need it.

I think it has to be either one or the other.

Also - I think it is naive to believe that people would use abortion as a form of birth control. I know, from experience, that abortion is a very traumatic experience, and it's an excellent detorent from unsafe sex, but mostly just from sex.

Do you really beleive a woman would have someone destroying their uterous lining one day, then go looking to laid the next?










PS - It also irks me that people protest abortion clinics, but no one protests things like lack of sex education.

[Benny]

I fully support abortion and the woman's right to choose, even in partial birth abortions. That being said, I do not think that abortion is the best method. I believe that children need better sex education and be taught more about using condoms and dangerous STDs.

Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, there still will be abortions. It should not be the government's say in whether or not a woman should choose to have her baby. And the whole killing a human being argument makes no sense either, because fetuses aren't even born so how can they be human? I agree, pro-lifers do contradict themselves when they support the death penalty but condemn abortion.

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by Benny
Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, there still will be abortions.

Exactly...by the rich. It will go back to how it was before when rich people safely got abortions from upstanding doctors and poor people had to go in back alleys and get abortions from hangers and other things that ultimately killed them or ruined their chances for conception in the future.

If it stays legal, then everyone can safely do what they're going to do anyway. It will be a sad day for America if Roe v. Wade is overturned, which is unfortunately not that far-fetched of a fear.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by Grebdron
Nobody should ever be able to prevent anybody from having any type of abortion, period.

A-fuckin'-men to that.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I think it is naive to believe that people would use abortion as a form of birth control. I know, from experience, that abortion is a very traumatic experience, and it's an excellent detorent from unsafe sex, but mostly just from sex.

I completely agree...but I do know of one girl whom had FIVE terminations before the age of 17.

Granted, she had severe self-esteem issues...it was sad to see.

[JohnTheHenchman]

If pro-lifers are contradictory and are against abortion but for the death penalty (by the way, whoever brought it up, blanket generalizations aren't cool. In my own views I am pro-life, but I'm against the death penalty, and I doubt I'm the only one.) would those who agree with abortion and oppose the death penalty also be contradictory? Or is this a double standard?

[ANavissi500]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Just because you can learn from something, doesn't mean it's a good thing. I'm sure crackheads learn lots of things that people who decide not to smoke crack never learn, but that hardly condones crack use.


I was just saying that abortion is bad because it end lives before the begin, but it was late and I thought I was being poignant.

[ANavissi500]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
If pro-lifers are contradictory and are against abortion but for the death penalty (by the way, whoever brought it up, blanket generalizations aren't cool. In my own views I am pro-life, but I'm against the death penalty, and I doubt I'm the only one.) would those who agree with abortion and oppose the death penalty also be contradictory? Or is this a double standard?


I am also with you - against the both of them. However, I think that it is very different. The death penalty executes people committed a crime - eye for an eye. Abortions are different because they did nothing to warrant death aside from being conceived.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by ANavissi500
I am also with you - against the both of them. However, I think that it is very different. The death penalty executes people committed a crime - eye for an eye. Abortions are different because they did nothing to warrant death aside from being conceived.

You're 'killing' a bunch of cells...and these unborn kiddies aint usually destined for a life of financial and emotional stability.

I honestly don't think ANY ONE of us has the right to judge.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Anyone has the right to judge. Who's to say I don't know someone who had an abortion?

Yeah, in the begining when it's just a bunch of cells, I could care less...the only form of abortion I am actually against is partial birth, for obvious reasons.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
If pro-lifers are contradictory and are against abortion but for the death penalty (by the way, whoever brought it up, blanket generalizations aren't cool. In my own views I am pro-life, but I'm against the death penalty, and I doubt I'm the only one.) would those who agree with abortion and oppose the death penalty also be contradictory? Or is this a double standard?

IMO-

The difference is, abortion is personal.

The government has no right in taking this choice away from an individual...they know nothing of circumstance.

I also believe they are wrong in taking a strangers life.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Government does have no right. To me, it's a moral issue, not a legal one.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Anyone has the right to judge. Who's to say I don't know someone who had an abortion?

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

I honestly don't believe generalisations can be made, 'I agree if...'

It doesn't work like that.

It's a cliché, but until you're walking in somebody elses shoes and all that jazz.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
If pro-lifers are contradictory and are against abortion but for the death penalty (by the way, whoever brought it up, blanket generalizations aren't cool. In my own views I am pro-life, but I'm against the death penalty, and I doubt I'm the only one.) would those who agree with abortion and oppose the death penalty also be contradictory? Or is this a double standard?


Sorry - for the blanket statement, John. I was ranting a bit there. Thanks for not letting me get away with that nonsense in such a respectful manner. :)

Yes, I think it is a double standard. This is mostly because the excuse many pro-lifers use is that it is taking away a life. Whether it be one cell, two, or what not -- That is why I saw it is a religeous, maybe philisophical issue, and why the states shouldn't touch on that.

Read on. ANavissi500's post brought me to the second part of this response...

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by ANavissi500
I was just saying that abortion is bad because it end lives before the begin, but it was late and I thought I was being poignant.


Oh, and I'm with you on that. My only problem is that if you prohibit abortions based on this, you are doing so based on faith. We shouldn't take away freedoms because it feels right.


Let me just say, personally. I don't think I would ever want a child of mine to be aborted. It's something I just wouldn't want to go through. However, it definately wouldn't be me going through it for one, and also if someone wants to go through that torture, we let people get piercings, make their dicks look like three headed gila monsters, and have sex change operations.... So, yeah, people have the right to do things to their bodies, and some of those things might not be so great to you. I mean, it's legal to eat your own shit. There's probably lots of organisms in the shit, and hell, there might even be a cure for cancer in there -- Maybe we should protect body excretions too. It's all about faith.



Also -- here's something to think about. Reagan just recently died, suffering heavily from Alzheimers. His wife is a big proponent for embryo treatments that are shown to have potential to help this cure this disease.

Isn't it ironic, that Reagan's Vice President signed bills preventing or limiting this research.

What was their basis for not allowing this? The same as the basis for not allowing abortions.

So, that's why I don't like taking away the choice of abortion. It opens doors and gateways to nonsense.

(in melodramatic tone)

The rabbit hole is deep.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
I completely agree...but I do know of one girl whom had FIVE terminations before the age of 17.

Granted, she had severe self-esteem issues...it was sad to see.

Yeah, I've heard some girls talk about abortion like it's the same as going to get a tan or a manicure. Unfortunately, abortion is sometimes used as a contraceptive. That, I don't agree with, but it's still important for them to have that choice.

[TheDeadWalk]

The problem with pro life and pro choice is that most of them seem to make this "You're either with us or against us" argument. I have no problem in my life being neither.

What I am for, is a form of Government intervention (regulation) severely limiting abortions. I feel that counesling is necessary (and may already be used?) prior to an abortion to skim out those who are simply just careless. I feel as if abortions should be performed when, but not limiting to:

A.) You are the victim of a rape.

B.) Spouse/Mate that you were impregnated by has passed away.

C.) Infected by AIDS.

D.) Severe mental retardation/Severe disability in the unborn child.

E.) Severe poverty. (Multiple cases to be referred for sterilization; this issue would perhaps deter cases like this from happening)

F.) You're life is at risk by way of childbirth.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Everyone here seems to agree on one thing -- We need more prevention, and more internvention -- more outreach.

This is what really bothers me. So much time and money is spent on humoring these laws that violate freedome of choice, when all of that money we are spending could go to educate every single inner city kid about sex, drugs, everything.

I mean, congress - a bunch of people in hot suits scurrying about -- Think of how much it costs just to keep that place cool in summer. I don't even like the idea of my tax dollars being spent to run the a/c to keep them cool enough to even think about what an individual does with their body. I'm sure that money there would probably be enough to equip every kid with a condom, and that would probably be a few less times the word abortion even came up.

Back asswards!

[Anthony4sho]

I believe a woman should only have an abortion if she was raped or knows for sure that she will not be able to support the baby. If my g/f and I were going to have a baby, and I knew there was no way we could support it, I would probably ask her to get an abortion. I would never give it up for adoption because you don't know what kind of hell your going to put it in by doing so.

Abortion should only be done in the early stages of pregnancy, for humane reasons. Another one of my beliefs is that a woman should never have more than one abortion. Thats just plain retarded. The 1st time you knew you weren't ready. After that, you should know when you are ready. And if your not, take the proper precautions.

I think that most women that have abortions are because their b/fs or husbands won't man up and help out with the child, putting the blame on the girl and telling her good luck. Thats just F'ed up.

[Lindsey]

Wow. It's cool to read about everyone's opinion. It's funny to read about what guys think, because I rarely hear a guy's version of abortion. In my humble opinion, I think abortion is ok. I get pissed at people who say it's "murder", because I think it's not. It's still a fetus, and not a baby. If I got pregnant, and it was my own damn fault, I would get an abortion because I'm too young for the responsibility. If I was raped, I'd also get an abortion. I do know some people who say that they'd give their baby up for adoption if they were raped. I think that's very wrong, and I just don't undertsand why they'd carry it. But a lot of the people who think that way, are religious...so that can obviously be the reason. The government shouldn't tell what a woman can or can't do. It's her body, and she can do what she damn well pleases.

[quoth_the_raven]

Theres very little I can add that hasn't been said already, but I am in support of abortion, for the reasons stated above.

[Romero&Juliet]

What gets me is that abortion was NEVER addressed in sex ed.. Nothing is known about the stages and boards you have to pass in order to get one (at least, not where I live) and it ends up causing a huge mess.


Abortifacients and "alternative practices" are still being used to this day in countries where abortion is very legal and very safe. That's scary.



In the US - Are abortions covered by any kind of healthcare? Considering the incedence of abortion with SES factors and age, is it really that easy to get one?

It should be...

[TheDeadWalk]

I remember many many moons ago in jr. high health class, we watched a video about the dangers of having sex, and people's "perceived solutions". This is of course a one in a billion odd, but one of the interviews during the documentary was this 8 year old girl who was confined to a wheelchair for the rest of her life, severely disabled. She was severely disabled because her mother attempted the "partial birth abortion", and it failed. She was pretty pissed off about the whole thing to be honest.

To be Devil's advocate here... I think in the court of law when a woman is pregnant or pregnant to a certain level it is counted as a life (IE pregnant woman gets hit by a drunk driver, causes her to lose child and the courts can press homicide charges)

If anyone is up to date on the Lacy Peterson murder trial, let me know about this, because I had heard that Scott Peterson was going to be charged with double murder on his pregnant wife and their unborn child.

I do tend to disagree with the "its a woman's body" argument, but mostly because this isn't exactly popping a pimple off of your face. It's overall a disgusting operation, and it ranks above my second worst, that being sex change operations. That one I don't look at with morals, I just find it retarded.

I heard an urban legend that impregnanted women that chug Cairo oil(syrup?) will force them to have miscarriages... eesh.

Another disgusting thing I was told by a dog breeder was that whenever a dog accidentally knocks up another dog, or the wrong dog of the litter got to it, and they don't wish for the dog to have pups at that time, they feed her a jumbo bowl of raw eggs and its supposed to abort all of the puppy fetuses.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
I do tend to disagree with the "its a woman's body" argument, but mostly because this isn't exactly popping a pimple off of your face. It's overall a disgusting operation, and it ranks above my second worst, that being sex change operations.

Define "disgusting." You have reservations about abortion because it grosses you out? You find it morally repulsive?

[Romero&Juliet]

I dont know of any legal cut off (there probably is one), but there <i>are</i> serious health risks in cases where a woman has to wait a long time - and for that reason, many are rejected here.

and my guess is that, where murder is concered, its a completely different ballgame - and not in slightest way comparable.

[Romero&Juliet]

Originally posted by countchocula
Define "disgusting." You have reservations about abortion because it grosses you out? You find it morally repulsive?

Well, it aint the cheeriest thing in the world to think about, Count.

The fact is, its actually a VERY safe operation. 97% of women who have an abortion in the first trimester report NO complications.

[BubbaStrangelove]

If abortion is illegal, lipsuction should also be illegal, because it is wrong to kill all of those fat cells that were created by our God-given bodies.

But of course liposuction would never even be considered for illegalization. Why? Because politicans like to stay trim.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by countchocula
Define "disgusting." You have reservations about abortion because it grosses you out? You find it morally repulsive?

No, nearly any operation grosses me out. If I were to watch an abortion, I would probably forever have images of it in my mind unable to be washed away.

But that's not the reason.

I find it disgusting because it reminds me of a lot of the toxic waste in society that find it to be an escape clause to their unprotected sexual behavior. You fuck, you risk pregnancy. I understand there are exceptions and reasons to every rule, but when I think of abortions I think of people like the above mentioned who had five abortions before the age of 18, the people that I see on Jerry Springer, and those two teens in prison now who had the child in a hotel room and then wrapped the child into a trashbag and threw it away. I think of useless abortions and I see some of the scum of society looking for an easy option because they'd rather wait until something NEEDS to be done before doing it. You'll take a chance of humping with no protection, but wait until you've got a fetus in you that's about to be born, and decide to abort it everytime.

Liposuction since brought up, reminds me of some of the upper-class scum of society, but also many times that it must be done are for some of the reasons that I think abortions should be done for, someone's health. An overly obese person may find themselves needing that surgery to survive. Same with amputations.

Either way, they're difficult to analogize because you can put a spin on them nearly any way you want to. I just prefer not to stick up for a welfare case that wants to sit in her income based housing and fuck all the time and wait until she's pregnant before she wants to do something about it.

[countchocula]

I agree that abortion can serve as a safety net for parlous promiscuity, but that doesn't change the fact (well, opinion) that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy under any circumstances. I don't care if she has semen dripping from her eye sockets; if she doesn't want the baby (and she wasn't judicious enough to take precautionary measures beforehand), she shouldn't have it.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by countchocula
if she doesn't want the baby (and she wasn't judicious enough to take precautionary measures beforehand), she shouldn't have it.


And the kid shouldn't have to live their life in an orphanage.

The "put it up for adoption" thing pisses me off, because most kids who are orphans are minorities, because it seems like most peple who can afford adoption only want white kids.

Yeah, put it up for adoption. Those orphanages are all like Oliver, you know.

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

The "put it up for adoption" thing pisses me off, because most kids who are orphans are minorities, because it seems like most peple who can afford adoption only want white kids.

Yeah, put it up for adoption. There's the solution to adding another life to an already over-populated world. I firmly believe that if you CAN'T or WON'T care for a child and it's still a healthy and safe alternative, abortion can make sense.

I'm not saying it should be used as birth control (who is?), but it should be an option available.

[TheDeadWalk]

I do agree with the extreme poverty circumstances.

Its just hard to stick up for an operation when its poster thought is of a worthless sleazeball who needs to either be more responsible or do the world a favor and get sterilized.

Perhaps that is my own bias, and maybe I need to be more educated so I would know what type of people usually get abortions.

Thanks in advance for a link or some sort I imagine.

[Scarface98.9]

I'm pro abortion. To follow the crowd, it's the women's body, and whether or not she was impregnated through rape or getting banged by 5 guys, she should at least have the option of abortion. If the kid won't be able to have a decent upbringing or be able to be raised in the household, we shouldn't force the people to have the baby

[DRbeauty]

I was pro life until I was faced with this situation. It's funny how you think until it happens to u.Maybe that shows what a coward I really am. Anyways I think I made the right/wrong choice. Right because I would have had to give up or postpone my goals, because I eventually broke up with my cheating ex, and it's taught me lessons, made me wiser blah blah blah. Wrong because I sometimes feel like I took the easy way out. I mean yeah I went through an emotionally and physically draining experience but I couldn't imagine what I would have gone through telling my parents, having to drop out of school, giving birth. But I do know I'll always think about what if. And many women do. I think a lot of women get so caught up in the "it's my body" chant, that they don't think about the aftermath. I know I didn't...

Here's something interesting to think about. Imagine if a man were able to sue for custody of an unborn child, and the mother wanted an abortion.
U know this brings out another issue. I know may guys who have gotten girls pregnant and they wanted to keep the baby and the girl aborted it. This really messed them up. It's sad, and they had no choice in the matter. They would have even taken sole custody.Sad...

[C-Desecration-]

But I do know I'll always think about what if. And many women do. I think a lot of women get so caught up in the "it's my body" chant, that they don't think about the aftermath. I know I didn't...


That reminds me: everytime people ask why wouldn't the mother just put her child into adoption, the only counter seems that that sort of life could, maybe, be harmful. No one's mentioned that many women would find it VERY difficult to give up their child, whether they want to or not. There's a bond once the kid is born. It isn't so easy to go "well, the little tyke might destroy my life, so off to adoption he goes." Many women might find themselves unable to give the kid up, which could be a problem for both the mother and the child.
Obviously I can't speak from personal experience. I'm a guy. It's also tough for me to even venture a guess to how powerful this "bond" I mentioned is. DRbeauty, you mentioned how it's unfortunate many guys lose their kid because their girlfriend wants an abortion. You said that the father would be happy to take sole custody. The thing is, if the kid was born, the mother might not be able to give him/her up. And doing that could be pretty damned destructive, depending on how things panned out.
And I'm all for a woman's right to choose, by the way.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
with double murder on his pregnant wife and their unborn child.
I do tend to disagree with the "its a woman's body" argument, but mostly because this isn't exactly popping a pimple off of your face. It's overall a disgusting operation, and it ranks above my second worst, that being sex change operations. That one I don't look at with morals, I just find it retarded.

Oh bollocks (I'm so hankering for a banning!)...

The operation might be 'disgusting' in your eyes..but I'm sure a mewling puking infant will warm the cockles of your heart.

Remind me never to post whilst pie-eyed and ruddy obstinate.

[BadCoverVersion]

By the way, C-Desecration, I'm agreeing with ya!

Mmmm, and...stuff.

[SAI]

I'm pro choice. The only people who should have any say in whether a mother takes a pregnancy to term are her and the father

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
Oh bollocks (I'm so hankering for a banning!)...

The operation might be 'disgusting' in your eyes..but I'm sure a mewling puking infant will warm the cockles of your heart.

Remind me never to post whilst pie-eyed and ruddy obstinate.

Sure thing, as long as you remind all of your cronies to "cover yer stump before ya hump".

The disgusting part is the social stigma that has been given to what society feels like a typical abortion patient is. A cheap, low-grade whore. Not someone who was raped, or was engaged to an asshole who left them in the dirt, just someone who wanted to fuck, wouldn't take a pill, wear a sponge, or wear a rubber. They voluntarily had cum dumped into them, and waited until they found out they were late on their period to do something about it. Even if you get drunk and scrump, if you feel that you might be pregnant, we've got the morning after pill.

But there are ancedotes that are against my method of thinking, and most of them I will side with the pro-abortionees.

Its not that abortions are performed, its the method that led up to the abortion. I feel that some things in life are reactions to previous actions. A pulled trigger will fire a gun, a jump off of a cliff will lead to a mighty fall, and letting your boyfriend stick it in you without a condom because he promised to "pull out" leads to pregnancy. I feel in certain situations you should step up to the plate, be an adult and take responsibility for your actions.

[DRbeauty]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
That reminds me: everytime people ask why wouldn't the mother just put her child into adoption, the only counter seems that that sort of life could, maybe, be harmful. No one's mentioned that many women would find it VERY difficult to give up their child, whether they want to or not. There's a bond once the kid is born. It isn't so easy to go "well, the little tyke might destroy my life, so off to adoption he goes." Many women might find themselves unable to give the kid up, which could be a problem for both the mother and the child.
Obviously I can't speak from personal experience. I'm a guy. It's also tough for me to even venture a guess to how powerful this "bond" I mentioned is. DRbeauty, you mentioned how it's unfortunate many guys lose their kid because their girlfriend wants an abortion. You said that the father would be happy to take sole custody. The thing is, if the kid was born, the mother might not be able to give him/her up. And doing that could be pretty damned destructive, depending on how things panned out.
And I'm all for a woman's right to choose, by the way.

That's very true. You know thinking about this is weird because I was adopted and I had a great life. I'm glad my biological mother didn't make the same choice I did. But then again, she might not have had a choice so....

[countchocula]

Well, this thread has been fairly predictable. There have been minor differences of opinion, but none of us are 100% pro-life. My question is, are there any schmoes out there who feel that abortion is murder? I'd love for you to speak up because it would beget an interesting debate, to say the least.

[TheDeadWalk]

It's an extremely difficult question to answer.

I know that abortion is using the method that life hasn't yet begun, but its hard to say that when looking at an aborted fetus that looks just like a dead baby.

We use the term 'cell' and 'organism', but the formations of the body actually develop very quickly, the facial structure forms in approximately 7 weeks. So to see that dead 'organism' often makes me beg the same rhetorical question to which I cannot fully answer myself.

However, from what I feel that I know about "partial-birth abortions", I think that could best be termed as murder. I believe that is where the child is actually destroyed as it makes his way out of the birth canal naturally. If that's accurate, then I have severe difficulty sticking up for that. That's no different then having a baby and throwing him in the dumpster before he takes his first breath. Feel free to correct me in a polite manner if I am mistaken about this process.

[countchocula]

HERE (http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/abortion_partial_birth.html) is some information on partial birth abortions. It seems to have health advantages, but it's hard for me to get behind. I could only rationalize it if the operation was performed to protect the mother's health, as the article puts it.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Sure abortion is murder. There is no doubt in my mind about it.

[Dignan]

Um, hi, my name is Dignan, and I am not a big fan of abortion.

The whole idea of ending the life of something that could even remotely be considered a human being does not sit well with me. But that's just me. I do not consider my self "pro-life," I just don't like the idea of abortion. I don't pass judgement on people who have had abortions. It is perfectly legal, and if they have had one, it is their business. More power to them.

As far as the whole rape scenario goes-- if I was a female and I impregnated during rape, I would strongly consider aborting it. But even if I did, I don't know that I wouldn't have regrets about the procedure.

And I am against euthenasia and the death penalty too.
But I'll save those opinions for another thread.

[badberry]

Originally posted by countchocula
HERE (http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/abortion_partial_birth.html) is some information on partial birth abortions. It seems to have health advantages, but it's hard for me to get behind. I could only rationalize it if the operation was performed to protect the mother's health, as the article puts it.

Wow....I gotta say that's some sick shit. I would have to oppose something like that...that fetus is way too close to being a baby at that point...I'm mostly 'pro-choice' I guess, but I think 3rd trimester abortions should be illegal (which they are close to being in the States according to that article)

I haven't posted yet in this thread...mostly because I'm not entirely sure myself how I feel about the whole thing. Like I said, I do consider myself to be pro-choice, but it's not a pleasant thing to think about. What if any of you guys were aborted?

[RicochetShaw]

Hi, my name is Shaw, and I'm an alocoholic. I mean, err...



Yeah, I'm mostly against abortion. Like Dignan said, the idea of ending a possible life just doesn't sit well with me, and makes me uncomfortable to think about. I mean, while I was still in my mother's womb, my mother strongly considered abortion. Which I don't think she had any right to. She made the mistake of being promiscuous, and if she didn't want to have me, she should have used prevention (condom, the pill, etc...). To me, once I was conceived, I don't think it was up to my mother, nor should be to any mother. Because really, you may be preventing a life that will do great things in the world. Not to show off, and please don't think I am, but I'm most likely going to finish salutatorian of my Senior class next year, and I think I've got a bright future ahead, and I'd like to do the world some good. (I'd like to run for office some day, but that's a big dream really). And, as I said, I don't think my mother had any right to stop that by aborting me, she could have done countless things to prevent her pregnancy. And since she didn't do any of those things, well I think a life was created, and IMO, she should have had no choice to end it.



And before you judge me, I'm not some nutcase that rants & raves about the wrongs of abortion. In the case of rape, I'm really torn, I can't say what I think is right and wrong there. On one hand I completely understand a woman wanting an abortion after being raped, but the idea of aborting a baby still just makes me feel uneasy.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by RicochetShaw
Hi, my name is Shaw, and I'm an alocoholic. I mean, err...



Yeah, I'm mostly against abortion. Like Dignan said, the idea of ending a possible life just doesn't sit well with me, and makes me uncomfortable to think about. I mean, while I was still in my mother's womb, my mother strongly considered abortion. Which I don't think she had any right to. She made the mistake of being promiscuous, and if she didn't want to have me, she should have used prevention (condom, the pill, etc...). To me, once I was conceived, I don't think it was up to my mother, nor should be to any mother. Because really, you may be preventing a life that will do great things in the world. Not to show off, and please don't think I am, but I'm most likely going to finish salutatorian of my Senior class next year, and I think I've got a bright future ahead, and I'd like to do the world some good. (I'd like to run for office some day, but that's a big dream really). And, as I said, I don't think my mother had any right to stop that by aborting me, she could have done countless things to prevent her pregnancy. And since she didn't do any of those things, well I think a life was created, and IMO, she should have had no choice to end it.



And before you judge me, I'm not some nutcase that rants & raves about the wrongs of abortion. In the case of rape, I'm really torn, I can't say what I think is right and wrong there. On one hand I completely understand a woman wanting an abortion after being raped, but the idea of aborting a baby still just makes me feel uneasy.

Right, like I said before, your Mother CHOSE to have you. Would you of had a much better childhood if your Mother knew she had no choice in having you?

Not giving a woman the freedom of choice and telling her, "well, if you didn't want this baby, you should've used any other options" is fascism in my view.

[RicochetShaw]

Originally posted by SLAW
Right, like I said before, your Mother CHOSE to have you.



When did you say it before? All I remember was a condescending question from another thread...

And I don't think she should have had any choice at all, once I was conceived that is...

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, my potential of a life was created when I was conceived. And in my eyes my mom and no right to end what was bound to begin if nature had taken it's course (Which thank God it did). The fact that you think she should have had the choice to end my life before it began, well, I must be honest: I find it a little disturbing.


Originally posted by SLAW
Would you of had a much better childhood if your Mother knew she had no choice in having you?


Huh? I had a terrible childhood as it was, my mother was a drug-addict and I had to live in some places that were probably unsuitable for children, but I didn't use that as a crutch or excuse, life is tough.


Originally posted by SLAW
Not giving a woman the freedom of choice and telling her, "well, if you didn't want this baby, you should've used any other options" is fascism in my view.

Well slap me on a black shirt and call me Mussolini. But how is common sense fascism? Women should take the necessary precautions if they don't want a baby, end of.

[SLAW]

Ah shit, excuse me. I was not meaning to imply that you yourself are a fascist. You seem like a nice guy. I can easily see how you would've interpreted that way. Sorry about that. I'm all for reproductive rights for all and the freedom to do most of what anybody wants with their bodies. A regulation of what people can and can't do I believe leans towards fascism. Nothing else to argue about other than that.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by RicochetShaw
The fact that you think she should have had the choice to end my life before it began, well, I must be honest: I find it a little disturbing.

Wait, so you're not for any use of contraception?

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by SLAW
Wait, so you're not for any use of contraception?

I think he was implying from the zygote stage and on.

End before it began is really an impossible phrase I know, but I think he was catering to that 'I'm an organism at this point and haven't had a birthday yet' point.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
I think he was implying from the zygote stage and on.

End before it began is really an impossible phrase I know, but I think he was catering to that 'I'm an organism at this point and haven't had a birthday yet' point.

Really? You think so? :p

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by SLAW
Really? You think so? :p

30 Helens agree: Ricochetshaw was talking about a fetus.

Helen Bradshaw: And he was talkin' about the zygotes too!

Helen Nelson: You don't even know how to spell zygote.

Helen Bradshaw: Shut up, you.

30 Helens agree, Richochetshaw was talking about a fetus.



:D

[BubbaStrangelove]

I know I'm mixing topics, but I can't understand how others can protect one form of population control that involves killing (abortion) but be against another (death penalty).

Yes, abortions is a choice -- but it is also a choice to commit crimes.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by RicochetShaw
And I don't think she should have had any choice at all, once I was conceived that is...

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, my potential of a life was created when I was conceived. And in my eyes my mom and no right to end what was bound to begin if nature had taken it's course (Which thank God it did). The fact that you think she should have had the choice to end my life before it began, well, I must be honest: I find it a little disturbing.

Women should take the necessary precautions if they don't want a baby, end of.

You paint it as though women are just throwing their legs akimbo, not giving a stuff about PROTECTION.

Many women become impregnated despite using condoms, the pill, Norplant and the rest. Many women become pregnant and the bloke just FUCKS OFF, poof...he's gone! Simple as that. I know, because I've seen it happen. I've also seen pregnancy almost destroy a person. I know one girl, her mother lives two doors down...if she had any sense she'd have had TWO terminations! Harsh...yes. But I see her kids day in, day out...wandering about like street urchins! She's a smackhead, possibly prostituting herself. Her kids...well, they don't have a pot to piss in. It's sad.

Many YOUNG GIRLS become pregnant, purely through a lack of education and common sense. Nobody is born stupid, you're a product of your environment. So, what should we do?

"Tsk, tsk" them and say "hard knocks", you made your bed...etc, etc. No doubt folks will return to these very forums to complain about these unmarried mothers draining the welfare state.

[Annie Hall]

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
You paint it as though women are just throwing their legs akimbo, not giving a stuff about PROTECTION.


Exactly. Chicks can get pregnant even taking all of the appropriate precautions- what about them? They should be put through one of the most stressful physical and emotional experiences simply because they were unlucky?

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
I feel that counesling is necessary (and may already be used?) prior to an abortion to skim out those who are simply just careless.

So you would want someone who's just "careless" to be responsible for raising a child?

THAT'S scary.

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by Annie Hall
Exactly. Chicks can get pregnant even taking all of the appropriate precautions- what about them? They should be put through one of the most stressful physical and emotional experiences simply because they were unlucky?

Agreed, but it may not be as common as we think. While I am pro-choice, I do know that often people lie about how they got pregnant (ie I used a condom and it broke--5 different times!). Sometimes it just seems obvious that someone is being completely careless and blaming it on circumstance. It pisses me off when people do that because it minimizes the low percent of people who actually are on the pill and still get pregnant REALLY by accident.

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Grebdron
So you would want someone who's just "careless" to be responsible for raising a child?

THAT'S scary.

I agree with that argument. I don't know if someone who isn't responsible enough to use birth control should be responsible for carrying and/or raising a child.

I don't think abortion should be used as repeated birth control by an individual, and for those who've had 5 or 6 of them... for fuck's sake, cut their tubes. Obviously they're either too stupid or careless. And let's include the guys in this too. It takes two to tango, men should take a little care not to spray their sperm around if they're not prepared to have kids. Not getting pregnant is the responsibility of both parties.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Morgana
I agree with that argument. I don't know if someone who isn't responsible enough to use birth control should be responsible for carrying and/or raising a child.

I don't think abortion should be used as repeated birth control by an individual, and for those who've had 5 or 6 of them... for fuck's sake, cut their tubes. Obviously they're either too stupid or careless. And let's include the guys in this too. It takes two to tango, men should take a little care not to spray their sperm around if they're not prepared to have kids. Not getting pregnant is the responsibility of both parties.

I agree with most of that. Except...if a woman has had 5 or 6 abortions...more power to her. Let her have 10, or 15. She's obviously not capable of rational decision making. And since they won't let us sterilize her...let her keep getting them.

[quoth_the_raven]

Originally posted by flowrchild
. It pisses me off when people do that because it minimizes the low percent of people who actually are on the pill and still get pregnant REALLY by accident.


I sometimes think the amount of accidental pregnancies on the pill could be reduced if more couples took the time, together, to read the little leaflet that comes with. I wonder how many people have ended up with a pregnancy following a course of antibiotics or after a pretty heavy puking session? I know people who its happened to- they didn't read the leaflet, ended up on the antibiotics and next thing- bun in the oven.

Is that an accident or just stupid? I'd settle for a sort of halfway point.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by Grebdron
So you would want someone who's just "careless" to be responsible for raising a child?

THAT'S scary.

Maybe a child or two will be less incentive for the next guy to want to fuck her.

Have her stay at home fixing spaghetti o's instead of out sipping bacardi and getting it doggie style off of a barstool.

If the woman is that scary about being careless, perhaps we need to go back to the days of the "truancy officers", only in a parent probation way.

I still seem to have a lack of disbelief that worst case scenario adoption homes are worse than being ejected from the uterus.

In an Ironic story, a guy I talk to and his wife were out camping last week. He had told me that she woke him up in the middle of the night complaining about terrible cramps, so he called for an emergency squad. Come to find out, she was five months pregnant, didn't know it. (!) Her body had a miscarriage/natural abortion.

He had fingers, toes, a face, and legs. Though technically a miscarriage, he's giving his son a name and a burial plot. He said "I couldn't just... throw it in the trash. It was a human. It was my son." Due to his religious beliefs, he even believed his son had a soul.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
He had fingers, toes, a face, and legs. Though technically a miscarriage, he's giving his son a name and a burial plot. He said "I couldn't just... throw it in the trash. It was a human. It was my son." Due to his religious beliefs, he even believed his son had a soul.

And IMO, he was wrong.

Since the sides are so split on this issue, to me it seems pragmatic to live by the age old credo..."live and let live."

If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one, or don't have your girlfriend/wife get one.

If someone else does believe in choice, let them make that choice.

The abortion clinic bombers only do the pro-lifers a disservice. "We believe life is sacred, so we're going to bomb the fuck out of people who perform, or recieve, abortions."

Dichotomy?

[Morgana]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
Maybe a child or two will be less incentive for the next guy to want to fuck her.

Have her stay at home fixing spaghetti o's instead of out sipping bacardi and getting it doggie style off of a barstool.




As I've mentioned, I don't support multiple abortions as a means of birth control, and my patience with people who do it is short. But I think so far you have only villified the woman... where is the guy's responsibility? I have yet to hear you say anything negative about men who get women unintentionally pregnant. Do you think men bear no responsibility at all? I don't know if you mean for it to, but it's coming across that way.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Morgana
As I've mentioned, I don't support multiple abortions as a means of birth control, and my patience with people who do it is short. But I think so far you have only villified the woman... where is the guy's responsibility? I have yet to hear you say anything negative about men who get women unintentionally pregnant. Do you think men bear no responsibility at all? I don't know if you mean for it to, but it's coming across that way.

This is my one complaint with the "women's choice" portion of abortion.

If it takes two to conceive, why does the woman have 100% say over whether or not she has an abortion? I mean, women want complete control. And I've known cases where the guy actually wants to father the child, but the woman refuses. When it's the opposite case, women want the man involved, even though he doesn't want to be. But when the guy wants to keep it, it's the woman's choice.

Admittedly, that's much less common, but it does happen.

Shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

[badberry]

Originally posted by SLAW
I'm all for reproductive rights for all and the freedom to do most of what anybody wants with their bodies. A regulation of what people can and can't do I believe leans towards fascism. Nothing else to argue about other than that.

Sorry, but it's not that simple. I would agree with you that people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies...if they wanna pierce themselves a hundred times, go for it. But, the issue is, is an abortion really only affecting a woman's body? Your now talking about something that will eventually be a person inside the woman...you can't just write that off as 'part of a woman's body'. I totally see where RicochetShaw is coming from...he almost didn't exist. It's natural that he would feel somewhat strongly about the issue.

By using words like facism, you're making a very grey issue a black and white one, which just doesn't work.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by badberry
But, the issue is, is an abortion really only affecting a woman's body? Your now talking about something that will eventually be a person inside the woman...you can't just write that off as 'part of a woman's body'.

Due to your beliefs, you don't think it's "just part of a woman's body."

I, and many other people, do believe that.

[badberry]

Originally posted by Grebdron
Due to your beliefs, you don't think it's "just part of a woman's body."

I, and many other people, do believe that.

I never said that that's what I believe. To be honest, I don't know where I stand on the whole thing, as I've said before. Is a fetus a person? I don't know, and I think it would be hard to say definatively one way or the other. All I'm saying is that this is a tricky issue, and people standing so firmly on either side don't sit well with me.

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Grebdron
This is my one complaint with the "women's choice" portion of abortion.

If it takes two to conceive, why does the woman have 100% say over whether or not she has an abortion? I mean, women want complete control. And I've known cases where the guy actually wants to father the child, but the woman refuses. When it's the opposite case, women want the man involved, even though he doesn't want to be. But when the guy wants to keep it, it's the woman's choice.

Admittedly, that's much less common, but it does happen.

Shouldn't be able to have it both ways.

You bring up a good point, and this is where things get a little more complicated. I myself knew a guy once whose girlfriend aborted his child, and he was just destroyed over it. Even years later. And as much as I sympathize, it's still the woman who has to carry and bear the child. So if she isn't prepared to, you can't make her. It may not be fair, and in cases such as this it isn't. But as long as the woman is the sole biological carrier of a child, and the one who provides an environment for a child to develop for 9 months, the decision lies with her. It's her body that will be affected.

Sorry I don't have a better answer right now, this issue requires a lot of thought.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Morgana
You bring up a good point, and this is where things get a little more complicated. I myself knew a guy once whose girlfriend aborted his child, and he was just destroyed over it. Even years later. And as much as I sympathize, it's still the woman who has to carry and bear the child. So if she isn't prepared to, you can't make her. It may not be fair, and in cases such as this it isn't. But as long as the woman is the sole biological carrier of a child, and the one who provides an environment for a child to develop for 9 months, the decision lies with her. It's her body that will be affected.

Sorry I don't have a better answer right now, this issue requires a lot of thought.

But therein lies the dichotomy. Should she have chosen to have the child against his wishes, he would have been expected to support the child.

Maybe there should be a caveat...if the man has made it clear that he prefers an abortion, the woman would be solely financially responsible.

Maybe that would serve to benefit in more ways than one. Maybe them women would be more careful about birth control.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Ann: I am pregant, I need an abortion.

Sue: Abortion is wrong.

Ann: But I don't want the kid, and I have no way to properly raise the kid.

Sue: You should look at it as an opportunity to raise the child. I think you can do it.

Ann: Truth of the matter is that I have one year to live.

Sue: Well then just put the kid up for adoption.

Ann: I'm afraid to bring a child into a world were foster children are often abused and neglected. You seem like a postitive, logical person, will you adopt the kid?

Sue: Well, as I logical person, I must say - HELL NO! YOU FUCKED UP YOURSELF BITCH! YOUR PROBLEM, NOT MINE.

Ann: I suck, and want to die.

Sue: Well, thankfully you'll have the kid. That's all that matters.

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Grebdron
But therein lies the dichotomy. Should she have chosen to have the child against his wishes, he would have been expected to support the child.

Maybe there should be a caveat...if the man has made it clear that he prefers an abortion, the woman would be solely financially responsible.

Maybe that would serve to benefit in more ways than one. Maybe them women would be more careful about birth control.

I'm in favor of a man who'll make sure he takes the necessary precautions on HIS end if he's not prepared to have a child. Don't always rely on the woman... that wouldn't even be smart as some women are clearly idiots. But then so can be men... I'm not playing favorites here.

If you're a man who doesn't want a child, wear a rubber. That would be recommended anyway these days as there are too many STDs on the loose. If you're a woman... there are numerous ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy prior to becoming pregnant. It seems rather simple, doesn't it? Meh... I expect too much of society. ;)

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Morgana
I'm in favor of a man who'll make sure he takes the necessary precautions on HIS end if he's not prepared to have a child. Don't always rely on the woman... that wouldn't even be smart as some women are clearly idiots. But then so can be men... I'm not playing favorites here.

If you're a man who doesn't want a child, wear a rubber. That would be recommended anyway these days as there are too many STDs on the loose. If you're a woman... there are numerous ways of preventing an unwanted pregnancy prior to becoming pregnant. It seems rather simple, doesn't it? Meh... I expect too much of society. ;)

As has been pointed out several times here...occasionally all forms of birth control fail. Given the optimum circumstances...attempt to control birth fails, etc...and the man would choose to keep the baby...he wouls still have no choice. That's ridiculously unfair.

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Grebdron
As has been pointed out several times here...occasionally all forms of birth control fail. Given the optimum circumstances...attempt to control birth fails, etc...and the man would choose to keep the baby...he wouls still have no choice. That's ridiculously unfair.

Unfair perhaps, but as I've already pointed out, until men are the ones who carry the child in their bodies, it'll be up to women.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Morgana
Unfair perhaps, but as I've already pointed out, until men are the ones who carry the child in their bodies, it'll be up to women.

Then I would cross that with...until the decision is mutual, the responsibility of raising the child should rest with the woman.;)

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Grebdron
Then I would cross that with...until the decision is mutual, the responsibility of raising the child should rest with the woman.;)

Well, in the case of divorce, a good portion of the time the children are placed with the mother, IF she's a fit mother. So the law would agree with you. But I think that's a whole separate thread. ;)

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Morgana
Well, in the case of divorce, a good portion of the time the children are placed with the mother, IF she's a fit mother. So the law would agree with you. But I think that's a whole separate thread. ;)

It is another topic, but I don't care.;)

The law almost gives women the children by default. Which is bullshit. But if women want all the reproductive rights, maybe they should have all the reproductive responsibilities.

[BakeTheMooCow]

I try not to dwell too much on this subject, because my opinions are of no consequence at all (huh what's that? ambition makes you look pretty ugly)

But sometimes, I can't help but think about it. Firstly, abortion is murder. No matter how much it is sugarcoated, I don't see it as anything different. But murder, in our society, is acceptable under a few circumstances.

In Texas, if you feel a man has committed a crime heinous enough, and you are the moral center of the universe and hold the power to deny him the oppurtunity to seek repentance, it is acceptable to fry him to a crisp. I disagree with that.

In most of the war-stricken regions of the world, if the person staring you down is weaker than you, worships a different God and is preferrably of a contrasting skin color, it is acceptable to blow his brains out. I disagree with that.

However, I think murder is acceptable when it is done in self-defense.

But this is an exception to the rule. Murder shouldn't be legalised just because it is acceptable in such a scenario. The case must be taken to a court of law, and the jury or judge must decide that it was your life against the attacker's, and you chose to end his.

Abortion is murder too, like I said. So it shouldn't be legal, it should only be acceptable under one exceptional circumstance - rape. Not because the condom broke, or your boyfriend dumped you, or you're just not in the mood to raise a child. These arguments aren't strong enough to justify murder. I also believe it shouldn't be easy. Take every case to a court of law, and let the court decide whether the fetus should be aborted.

If I were in a position to pass a law on the issue, I'd vote against legalising it or keeping it legal. If I were a woman, I'd never consider abortion except if I was raped.

[quoth_the_raven]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
Take every case to a court of law, and let the court decide whether the fetus should be aborted.
.


That will never happen. The courts would be snowed under deciding abortion cases. The judicial system, in this country anyway, is already under a great deal of strain-they won't accept a burden this huge. Plus, I think it would lead to a great deal of uncertainty- you'd have lines of precedent that say yes, no, give lists of exceptions etc. Thats not a good state for the law to be, especially in an area this sensitive.

It'd be nice to think they could be a filter in place, but I find myself doubting that it would be a practical system. It would quickly become confusing and cause a massive backlog in the judicial system.

Plus, it would make the human rights lawyers richer, and as I absolutely detest the bastards...well you figure it out ;)

It's a good thought bake, I just don't think it would fly.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
1. I also believe it shouldn't be easy. Take every case to a court of law, and let the court decide whether the fetus should be aborted.

2. If I were a woman, I'd never consider abortion except if I was raped.

1. It's a medical procedure. There shouldn't be any red tape involved. By the time the courts decide the fate of your brood, you'll be looking at a partial birth abortion (if you haven't already gone into labor). I'm not convinced that abortion is murder. You're depriving those seeds the opportunity to develop. Isn't that what contraception is for? To make sure "life" doesn't happen? If that's how you define murder, I just slaughtered 2.5 million people about an hour ago.

2. I'm all for bold statements, but you'll never have to make that decision. You'll never honestly know if you would consider abortion if you were a woman. It's WAY too easy to say that you wouldn't.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
Take every case to a court of law, and let the court decide whether the fetus should be aborted.

Yeah, I want the fucking OJ jury deciding who's fit to bear and raise a child.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by countchocula
1 If that's how you define murder, I just slaughtered 2.5 million people about an hour ago.

And twice on Sundays.;)

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally posted by countchocula
To make sure "life" doesn't happen? If that's how you define murder, I just slaughtered 2.5 million people about an hour ago.



Who was the comedian that compared masturbation to genocide?

[quoth_the_raven]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Who was the comedian that compared masturbation to genocide?

I am sure it was in one of Michael Moore's books...I could be utterly wrong, it is late ;)

[countchocula]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Who was the comedian that compared masturbation to genocide?

Bill Hicks!

[BakeTheMooCow]

It's a good thought bake, I just don't think it would fly.

Re: Who said it was practical? This would only be possible when everyone would agree that abortion is murder, which is not going to happen.

By the time the courts decide the fate of your brood, you'll be looking at a partial birth abortion (if you haven't already gone into labor)

Re: Beautiful. This will probably make women think twice about having abortions, which is a good thing. Also, I see no distinction in partial birth abortions or even shooting the kid in the head when he's 3. It's all murder.

I'm not convinced that abortion is murder. You're depriving those seeds the opportunity to develop. Isn't that what contraception is for? To make sure "life" doesn't happen? If that's how you define murder, I just slaughtered 2.5 million people about an hour ago

Re: In my opinion, life begins when the sperm and egg coalesce to form a zygote and it is implanted in the wall of the uterus. Contraception is to prevent the sperm from ever entering the egg. Masturbation isn't murder, since the sperm never forms a zygote and is not placed in an environment where it can receive nourishment and grow.

You'll never honestly know if you would consider abortion if you were a woman.

Re: Of course.

Yeah, I want the fucking OJ jury deciding who's fit to bear and raise a child.

Re: We let the courts decide murder cases, so they should decide abortion cases too, since IMO abortion is murder.

[BubbaStrangelove]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
Also, I see no distinction in partial birth abortions or even shooting the kid in the head when he's 3. It's all murder.


Sorry, the distinction is large. Shooting a born child creates more paperwork, wastes more resources, consumes more time, and costs more money. I see an enormous difference in the reprocutions of dealing with an 30 lb. corpse compared to something that's handled in an operating room most likely involving a sanitized environment.

The only reason partial births were originally banned is because they are dangerous for the mother -- it has nothing to do with this belief concerning the emotional state of an unborn child.

And that is the distinction. Pro-Life only serves the interest of those who are asserting their personal belief, and have nothing to do with the birth. Pro-choice serves the interest of the person who will deal with the consequences of the birth. One group believes they are carrying around an unborn little person with hopes and dreams, the other group believes that they are carrying around a collection of cells brought together through sexual intercourse that will eventually develop into a little person.

It's belief. That's all it is. Keep it out of the courts.

Now, I think that pro-lifers should be allowed to rally, and allowed to convince women to have the baby. If they do convince the women to have the baby, then that is groovy too.

The point is that women will find some way to abort an unborn child. Pennyroyal Tea, apparently, and I've also heard about women dropping down stairs to deliberately kill the fetus.

At least with abortions made legal, they can be regulated.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
Beautiful. This will probably make women think twice about having abortions, which is a good thing. Also, I see no distinction in partial birth abortions or even shooting the kid in the head when he's 3. It's all murder.

Easy now.

You think a woman opts for a termination on a whim? You talk like it's a lackadaisical spur-of-the-moment decision. Of course, there are exceptions, but I imagine the majority of women think twice...think three times...think Christ knows how many times before subjecting themselves to what can only be described as a traumatic, and ultimately life-changing procedure.

I also think you're way off the mark re: shooting a 3 year old kiddie in the fucking head. C'mon, life aint black and white...this is a grey area if ever there was one.

Would an early miscarriage be tantamount to the loss of your 3 year old son? Not the best analogy, but think about it.


Oh, and Bill Hicks said something like this...

"And this is the one folks, this is the idea that has kept me a virtually unknown figure in America for the past 16 years. I have watched my crowds dwindle. I am going nowhere and nowhere quick. If you have children here tonight, and I assume some of you do, I am sorry to tell you this. They are not special...Do you know that every time a man comes, he comes two hundred million sperm...and you mean to tell me you think your child is special? Because one in two hundred million sperm, that load, we're talking one load, connected? Gee, what're the fucking odds?! Two hundred million, you know what that means? I have wiped entire civilizations off of my chest, with a grey gym sock. That is special. Entire nations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel, maybe even Gidea! That is special, and I want you to think about that, with that holier-than-thou, we-have-the-gift-of-life attitude. I've tossed universes in my underpants while napping! THAT is special! Milky Way shoots into my jockey shorts. Ooooohh, what's for fucking breakfast?. THAT is special. I've tossed universes in my underpants, while napping! BOOM!"

Not exactly relevant, but funny nonetheless.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by Morgana
As I've mentioned, I don't support multiple abortions as a means of birth control, and my patience with people who do it is short. But I think so far you have only villified the woman... where is the guy's responsibility? I have yet to hear you say anything negative about men who get women unintentionally pregnant. Do you think men bear no responsibility at all? I don't know if you mean for it to, but it's coming across that way.

Well, mainly because woman's body/woman's choice has been the subject of most of this adventure, but do adhere that societal scum includes just as many men as do women. For example, the piece of shit down the street from me who is a classified sex offender for taking pictures of himself fucking a beagle and putting it on the web. What the fuck. That's a severe cry for sterilization; possibly castration.


Now I don't fully feel on this issue here, but as a devil's advocate for 100% pro-lifers: Could you see the argument that once a fetus is created, that fetus is not a part of the woman's body? That perhaps the egg and sperm have both combined together to create a new separate individual that is still in the cocoon stages of life?

Perhaps at that moment, it's not a fat cell, or a bone, but an individual creation brought forth by the mating process. Perhaps to abort that individual, is like pointing a gun at a blind man. He never saw it coming.

---

Now I don't totally believe that, but its a very very interesting thought perspective.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
In my opinion, life begins when the sperm and egg coalesce to form a zygote and it is implanted in the wall of the uterus. Contraception is to prevent the sperm from ever entering the egg. Masturbation isn't murder, since the sperm never forms a zygote and is not placed in an environment where it can receive nourishment and grow.

Either way, you're preventing Sperm #1,226,048 from ever having a chance at life. Isn't ejaculating into a toilet a waste of precious life? Who knows? Sperm #1,226,048 could have been an astronaut or a brain surgeon (but not Sperm #1,226,047; he's just an asshole).

TheDeadWalk, I'd say that a fetus is a part of a woman's body. It can't survive independently of the womb (during the first trimester anyway). It's analogous to an organ, that is, until it's ready to come up for air.

[RicochetShaw]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
30 Helens agree: Ricochetshaw was talking about a fetus.

Helen Bradshaw: And he was talkin' about the zygotes too!

Helen Nelson: You don't even know how to spell zygote.

Helen Bradshaw: Shut up, you.

30 Helens agree, Richochetshaw was talking about a fetus.



:D


Thank you, and the 30 Helens are right. Sorry for my mis-wording.


BCV - sorry I didn't address the issue of when a woman is facing life-threatening situations due to her pregnancy, I just didn't think of it at the time I was posting. Again, I'm not entirely comfortable with aborting an unborn baby, but when a situation like that occurs I can totally understand.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Although it is the woman's body, pregancy is a 50/50 thing. You need both sex's in order to reproduce. Abortion should not be the sole decision of the woman, unless of course, the father was a fuckhead and skipped town upon learning he impregnated someone.

It takes to people to create a child. Although it can be argued, it usually takes two people raise a child. But it only takes one person to decide whether a child should be aborted? That doesn't sit well with me.

[flowrchild]

Originally posted by countchocula
You'll never honestly know if you would consider abortion if you were a woman. It's WAY too easy to say that you wouldn't.

Wise words. It's impossible for anyone to truly know how they would feel or handle any given situation, until it happens to them. Sweeping generalizations for things experienced by the opposite gender are not warranted by any kind of fairness or ultimate truth.

[BakeTheMooCow]

You think a woman opts for a termination on a whim? You talk like it's a lackadaisical spur-of-the-moment decision. Of course, there are exceptions, but I imagine the majority of women think twice...think three times...think Christ knows how many times before subjecting themselves to what can only be described as a traumatic, and ultimately life-changing procedure.

Re: However many times they think about it is not enough, since abortion/murder rates are high and more women should be reconsidering the termination of their child.

I also think you're way off the mark re: shooting a 3 year old kiddie in the fucking head. C'mon, life aint black and white...this is a grey area if ever there was one. Would an early miscarriage be tantamount to the loss of your 3 year old son? Not the best analogy, but think about it.

Re: There is no grey area when dealing with murder. The amount of emotional trauma that results from the killing is irrelevant.

Either way, you're preventing Sperm #1,226,048 from ever having a chance at life. Isn't ejaculating into a toilet a waste of precious life? Who knows? Sperm #1,226,048 could have been an astronaut or a brain surgeon (but not Sperm #1,226,047; he's just an asshole).

Re: Sperm #1,226,048 never had a chance at life because it was never meant to fertlilize an egg and more importantly, it never entered a woman's ovaries in order to do that. Neither did Sperm #1,226,047. If the sperm was never meant to create offspring, and was only destined for the drain of the sink, how can you say it was a waste of precious life?

It's impossible for anyone to truly know how they would feel or handle any given situation, until it happens to them.

Re: I can say, with 100% certainty, as a man, that I would never murder or advocate the murder of my child. I don't see how my opinion would be drastically different if I were a woman.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Although it is the woman's body, pregancy is a 50/50 thing. You need both sex's in order to reproduce. Abortion should not be the sole decision of the woman, unless of course, the father was a fuckhead and skipped town upon learning he impregnated someone.

It takes to people to create a child. Although it can be argued, it usually takes two people raise a child. But it only takes one person to decide whether a child should be aborted? That doesn't sit well with me.

Surely in MOST cases, two people are making the decision, unless like you said the father goes AWOL. I imagine terminations within stable, loving partnerships are few and far between.

If YOU wind up in a relationship, and your partner sees fit to abort your unborn child without so much as a "Honey, I'm pregnant", well...that's a pretty fucking damaged little unit for a kick-off. The selfish tart quite obviously aint worth the bother...be thankful that you found out before she dropped the sprog and a life-long 'bond' was formed, be thankful for that at the very least.

Oh, and I agree that men should have an equal voice in this situation...providing they're willing to walk the walk if you catch my drift...um, daddy-o.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Yeah, I've talked to a person who had an abortion before that kept trying to say the man has no say whatsoever. It was aggrivating, almost.

[cstroman]

I have some theoretical questions:

If a woman wants to have an abortion the day before the baby is due, is that ok or not in your opinions and why?

The day after the baby is born, if the mother wants to take a pair of scissors and cut the baby's spinal cord at the neck is that ok or not and why?

[badberry]

Originally posted by cstroman
I have some theoretical questions:

If a woman wants to have an abortion the day before the baby is due, is that ok or not in your opinions and why?

The day after the baby is born, if the mother wants to take a pair of scissors and cut the baby's spinal cord at the neck is that ok or not and why?

Yeah, the tough issue is, when exactly does a fetus become a baby? Most of us would consider the death of a newborn infant to be tragic, yet many are ok with abortions. So is it the moment it decides to pop out of the vagina? 6 months into pregnancy? 5 months? All seems a bit arbitrary doesn't it?

[electriclite]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Although it is the woman's body, pregancy is a 50/50 thing. You need both sex's in order to reproduce. Abortion should not be the sole decision of the woman, unless of course, the father was a fuckhead and skipped town upon learning he impregnated someone.

It takes to people to create a child. Although it can be argued, it usually takes two people raise a child. But it only takes one person to decide whether a child should be aborted? That doesn't sit well with me.


Good point, but even our civil courts recognize women's rights over men in regards to children. In a child custody case, 9 times out of 10 the woman will be the one who recieves custody of the child(ren). So there is a standing bias when it comes to anything relating to children and pregnancy that it is mainly an area that is in the woman's court.

Not saying it is right, just where the tendency stems from.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Bake, all of your points are dead solid, and I agree in full with them. However, do you at least agree that these points are based on personal morality?

Re: However many times they think about it is not enough, since abortion/murder rates are high and more women should be reconsidering the termination of their child.

This is like saying that people should like blue because not enough people like blue, and more people should think about liking blue.

Words like "high" are absract. The same words can be used for the opposing arguement ie. "The rate of neglected foster childern is high, and more women should be reconsidering giving their kids up for adoption."



Re: Sperm #1,226,048 never had a chance at life because it was never meant to fertlilize an egg and more importantly, it never entered a woman's ovaries in order to do that. Neither did Sperm #1,226,047. If the sperm was never meant to create offspring, and was only destined for the drain of the sink, how can you say it was a waste of precious life?


Yes, this is a good arguement if you believe in predestination. Like the other point, it can be reversed - "The baby should be aborted because it may be destined to kill Bake The Moo Cow one day."




Re: I can say, with 100% certainty, as a man, that I would never murder or advocate the murder of my child. I don't see how my opinion would be drastically different if I were a woman.



I think you are missing the difference between advocate and staying the fuck out of other peoples business. If you think those like me are advocating abortion, then you are wrong. I'm just staying out of other people's business. I've found that the more I push, the more they push back - on all sides. So take it for what it is -- keeping people from having unwanted children. I'd rather see the anti-abortionists focusing their energy on the people who still have hope, instead of creating all of these issues and muddling up the lives of those who have already signed their destiny.

Some things people should consider:

Where do people learn the most about abortions -- From the pamphlets that anti-abortionists hand out. How messed up is that? Where do you see the most coverage about abortions? On the news, when anit-abotionists are protesting it.

There are a million ways to kill an unborn child. Why are these people only conserned with the people who are doing it in a safe manner, and why don't they do more to encourage celibacy, like go hand out condoms once in awhile?

Why do I never see this news headline:

ANTI-ABORTIONISTS VISIT LOCAL SCHOOL TO SPEAK ABOUT DANGERS OF PREMARITAL SEX

Because it doesn't happen. It's the abortion clinics that give out free condoms, do the lectures, and try to stop the problem.

The sad thing is that we've become so pessimistic as a society that we think the only answer to teaching our kids right from wrong is to take away their choices in life.

Doesn't sound as pro-life when it's put that way.

[BakeTheMooCow]

Bubba, you make some good points and I agree with you that all my arguments are based on personal morality. But I thought I was staying out of other people's business. Like I said first up, my opinion means absolutely nothing. I'm not convinving anyone to rethink their views on abortion, nor am I in any position to force my views upon others in society. And believe me, I am not motivated enough or in agreement enough with anti-abortionists to participate in rallies promoting their ideology. All I did was voice my personal beliefs on abortion after it was brought up in a thread. Does staying out of other people's business mean that you should believe that women are free to do what they want with their bodies? Fine, I absolutely agree. People can do whatever they want with their lives and I really couldn't give a shaved rat's nutsack. But does staying out of other people's business mean believing that abortion is right? I don't think so. Does that make sense? I mean, people can continue to do what they want and I'll continue to believe it is wrong.

[BubbaStrangelove]

I hear you Bake. I'm just yelling at those people who blow up clinics, block peoples paths, spend countless dollars lobbying, among other things.

That stuff really steams me and I didn't mean to take my hostility out, and group you with those people. I'm with you because I don't hand out condoms and all that jive. The difference between us and them is that we aren't excerting our efforts to do things like I mentioned above.

In alot of ways I'm anti-abortion in that Im anti-poverty, anti-illiteracy, and pro-family values.

However, I could never see the point in trying to engage in an abstract fight over the what's in someone's womb. Chances are there is someone in a square mile of me who can't afford to feed a kid.

Most of the reasons people get abortions can be fixed, and that's what eats me. That's also something that eats the people who blow up abortion clinics, I would suppose.

The thing is, insead of fixing the problem, some people are trying to fix what many see as a solution, and that doesn't seem right.

IMHO. LOL. :~D

[badberry]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

The point is that women will find some way to abort an unborn child. Pennyroyal Tea, apparently, and I've also heard about women dropping down stairs to deliberately kill the fetus.

At least with abortions made legal, they can be regulated.
And THAT right there is the main reason I support legal abortions.