Terry Schiavo (Abortion, death penalty, right to live... You thought those were hard

[BubbaStrangelove]

I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with Terry Schiavo, a Florida woman who, in 1990 fell victim to medical malpractice, and was left in what doctors describe as a "vegetative state".

8 years later, her husband and legal guardian, Michael Shiavo, decides to have her taken off life support. The parents, who are at odds with the husband, protest the decision and take it to court.

13 year later, after the Supreme Court wouldn't stop the husbands wishes to remove her from life support, and after judges had ruled she be taken off life support, and she had actually been taken off life suuport once already, and then put back on when the parents sued, claiming the husband was committing purgery by saying she would want to die -

She is taken off life support for 6 days, then....

Governor Jeb Bush overrides the courts, and has her put on life support under something he calls "Terri's Law".

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1005432/posts

http://www.maradentro.org/gifz/pics/ne/47/bush.jpg

Statement By: GOVERNOR JEB BUSH

Regarding Theresa Schiavo

TALLAHASSEE- "Like the tens of thousands of Floridians who have raised their voices in support of Terri Schiavo's right to live, I have been deeply moved by these tragic circumstances. I understand the limitations cited by the judges who have declined to hear the later stages of this case. However, any life or death decision should be made only after careful consideration of all related facts and conditions. For that reason, I appreciate the extraordinary action of the Legislature today, and will use the discretion they have granted regarding the restoration of nutrition and water to Terri Schiavo.

"The conflict among family members over the best interests of this young woman has made us all acutely aware that uncertainty in these situations can, and does, compound the tragedy. I hope all Floridians, and any others who have followed this case, will ensure their best interests are clearly documented in a living will or other directive to spare their families a similar anguish.

"My thoughts and prayers remain with Terri and those who love her."



What do you all think -- Some say Governor Bush is violating Michael Shiavo's civil liberties by denying him his legal right to do as he sees best for his wife. Some say Terri has the right to live, and that undermines any legal rights?

What do you think?


http://www.terrisfight.org/

http://www.wftv.com/news/2676430/detail.html


BEFORE
http://www.prolifeinfo.com/terri3.jpg


AFTER
http://www.prolifeinfo.com/terri2.jpg

[SLAW]

I think it's absolutely sick that this woman's family and Jeb Bush wants to keep her alive. Her husband said what she wanted to happen if this were to happen, please respect that. If anything, this case is a call out to people to specify tot heir loved ones (and in wills) on what they want done with them if they were to end up in a vegitative state and on life support. My thoughts are scattered on this one and I just woke up (I'm on vacation!), but if my big accomplishment for the day was that I could follow a balloon with my eyes from one part of a room to another, then the people closest to me will know what to do.

[Morgana]

Now this is what I would call TRUE cruel and unusual punishment. She was taken off life support, and then put back on, and then taken off, and put back on again? All because of legal battles?That's just sickening.

Cases such as this are difficult because she didn't sign a living will, so it's difficult to say what she would have wanted. But I hardly think she would've wanted this. It's like she's just some living corpse they plug on and off life support, pending on which way the law swings at the moment. I'm not familiar with Florida's laws, but if her husband is her legal guardian, then I would think he has the right to decide... by law.

This is really tragic, but it makes one realize just how important it is to fill out a living will prior to medical treatment. I know I was given the option to fill out a living will before I had my surgery. You don't want to take these things seriously because you never imagine anything bad could happen during surgery, but it can.

[SLAW]

I remember when O'reiley had a woman guest on his show who was in a vegitative state, yet was aware of everything around her. She came on to advocate that it's possible that Terry Schiavo sees and feels everything going on around her, so therefore shouldn't be relieved. O'reiley agreed with her and said that it's something to think about. I just thought, what all the more reason to let her go. That's for thirteen years. Thirteen years of absolute fucking hell!. Eating through a tube and having nurses or loved ones wipe your ass, what great stuff to be aware of!

[countchocula]

I'm also of the mind that keeping Terri hanging in the balance is contemptuous. There doesn't seem to be any chance of a turnaround. This must be an exacting burden on Terri's husband. Being a loved one's caretaker is dismal and emotionally draining. I doubt that he has any sort of life, and I don't feel that it would be selfish of him to want to be reprieved of such a hardship. Everyone in that family is suffering, not just Terri.

[Romero&Juliet]

- and is Jeb acting on behalf of the well being of Terry, or simply appeasing the "thousands of Floridians who have raised their voices in support" of her? Call me jaded, but it sounds like that woman is being put through hell for the sake of a bunch of people getting their GoodGuy badges..

I'd imagine these cases are fairy common. "Terri's Law" is just going to make things way more painful for families going through the same thing. More gray area, more room for dispute, etc..

I'm assuming legal guardian usually has the final say in these things?

[Scarface98.9]

She should be left to the discretion of her husband, the legal guardian. If he wants to let her off, which is something I'm in support of, he should be allowed to. Being in that state of mind while the son in law and family are going to war over it isn't something I bet she'd want, and considering there's almost nil chance she'd ever be fully well again, I don't see the point in keeping her in that condition.

Though I'm just puzzled at how a person could be off life support for 6 days and still live

[DRbeauty]

Right to live? What about the right to die? Man thanx for starting this. This reminds me of me wanting to sign a living will. Cause no way in hell I would want to be kept alive like this. Her husband is a nurse too. As a soon to be nurse I work with these people every day. It's sad when they want to let go and people want to hold on. When these people don't want to eat anymore and you have to watch their family members practically force them to eat. I know that it's your daughter and all but, think about her. You want her to stay alive? What life. That is not life.

[Anthony4sho]

Originally posted by Scarface98.9
Though I'm just puzzled at how a person could be off life support for 6 days and still live


It wasn't her time to go.

[DRbeauty]

Originally posted by Anthony4sho
It wasn't her time to go.

I'm sure the life support is prolonging her time to go.
It wasn't life support in terms of a ventilator. It was a feeding tube. And people were all like, 'oh the torture. Being starved to death.' It's been proven that people who no longer eat and have feeding tubes and such do not suffer the physiological symptoms of starving. It doesn't hurt them.

[Grim H.]

Terri Schiavo is dead. Not physically, but in every other way. The body may remain alive, but that's it. Just a body, an empty shell of human being who feels no emotions.

Look around you. All those who hurt, love, cry, and hate, those are humans. They have emotions and thoughts; vegetables do not.

I realize it's hard when a loved one dies. I know how it feels. But it's easier to let someone die and remember them as the person they were than it is to make them remain a vegetable and drag their entire life on forever.

Terri Schiavo died a long time ago, and she isn't coming back. It doesn't have to be sad. Death is a natural process. Everyone will die. I will, and you all will. You have to know when to say goodbye. You have to know when to let go. To Terri's parents I say..."just let go."

I would rather die young and extravagantly than a feeble old man in a hospital bed.

[BubbaStrangelove]

I haven't even touched on one thing ---

Where the fuck is all of the money coming from?

To keep her hospitalized, court costs, etc....


Here is what pisses me off most --

If this would have been a poor person -- they would have been dead A LONG TIME AGO.

No government intervention. No right to live.

Dead.

It's funny how rights only seem to exist for those who can afford them.

[DRbeauty]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I haven't even touched on one thing ---

Where the fuck is all of the money coming from?

To keep her hospitalized, court costs, etc....


Here is what pisses me off most --

If this would have been a poor person -- they would have been dead A LONG TIME AGO.

No government intervention. No right to live.

Dead.

It's funny how rights only seem to exist for those who can afford them.

That's a very good point. Although she's not in the hospital anymore. But still... all that equipment...

[Tweek]

man..

i saw a segment on oprah on schiavo and cried my eyes out,

what the hell?! Put her back on and off life support?


How fuckin... GAH! -backs out of thread-

[SLAW]

I don't know why the hell they starve her to death. Let her sleep!

[BubbaStrangelove]

UPDATE:

It was decided that Schiavo's parents can't testify in the case on Bush's amendment.

[DRbeauty]

Good, maybe they'll finally let her go.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Scarface98.9
She should be left to the discretion of her husband, the legal guardian. If he wants to let her off, which is something I'm in support of, he should be allowed to. Being in that state of mind while the son in law and family are going to war over it isn't something I bet she'd want, and considering there's almost nil chance she'd ever be fully well again, I don't see the point in keeping her in that condition.

Though I'm just puzzled at how a person could be off life support for 6 days and still live

I am going to be the lone dissenter on this one unless I missed something. I have told everyone I know that I do not want to be kept alive for any reason if I am not able to function and I warn people that if I am put in charge of them (power of attorney) that I will not keep them alive either if they are in a vegetative state. I don't belive in it, HOWEVER


Terri's husband has moved on- he has a new wife and a kid. Her parents want her to be kept alive- what is it to him???? They feel strongly that he just wants her out of the picture now that he has a new life. I thiink in this case that if it means a lot to the parents and they are actively involved with her life THEY should have the say here-not the husband. If all the family wanted her to die and it was an outsider suing, I would be for letting her die but that is not the case.

The only reason Jeb became involved in this case is becasue the family begged him to help them. They love their kid sand feel strongly about this. Let them have her- how cruel to take her away from them when they want her so much.

As far as the 6 day thing goes I think she was going to be starved to death- I think they pulled the feeding tube and then had it put back in.

[jeo4]

A living will is the way to go. If the decision to die was hers, then she should have penned it. I feel for both sides...her husband has an enormous burden on him. Meanwhile, her parents are dealing with the heartbreaking loss of a child. I'm torn on this one, but I know what I would do if it were my wife. It was made clear to me years ago what she wanted done, and she made it a point to tell us all.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Terri's husband has moved on- he has a new wife and a kid. Her parents want her to be kept alive- what is it to him???? They feel strongly that he just wants her out of the picture now that he has a new life. I thiink in this case that if it means a lot to the parents and they are actively involved with her life THEY should have the say here-not the husband. If all the family wanted her to die and it was an outsider suing, I would be for letting her die but that is not the case.

her husband came everyday to see her for years. Her husband knows what she would've wanted and now he gets to watch her be the way she is. I think it means a hell of a lot and it tortures him everyday.

[Lynn7]

The family claims that he lost interest in her shortly after he won the million dollar judgement against the doctor. He says the family wants the money. it really doens't matter which is true. If they want her alive, why kill her? It's nothing to him- he's moved on with his life and Terri is being well cared for and seems comfortable. It's not the life I would want but if it meant that my family could find some comfort in it I guess it would be OK. Plus they were not married all that long when it happened.

It reminds me of the biblcal story where two women had babies- one of the babies died and the other woman claimed the surviving baby as her own. When they appeared in front of the king, both claiming the baby as their own, the king said to saw the baby in half and give each mother half the baby. One woman said no! Give the baby to her. The king declared selfless woman to be the real mother since she wanted the baby to live even if it meant that she would not have it.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by Lynn7
The family claims that he lost interest in her shortly after he won the million dollar judgement against the doctor. He says the family wants the money. it really doens't matter which is true. If they want her alive, why kill her? It's nothing to him- he's moved on with his life and Terri is being well cared for and seems comfortable. It's not the life I would want but if it meant that my family could find some comfort in it I guess it would be OK. Plus they were not married all that long when it happened.

The family have said a lot of things about him. This guy WAS around for a very long time and now the family just doesn't want him around. Release her from this hellish life she never wanted in the first place. I don't think she wanted to follow balloons around with her eyes and have that be a huge accomplishment, and then let someone wipe her ass for her and be spoken to like a baby.



It reminds me of the biblcal story where two women had babies- one of the babies died and the other woman claimed the surviving baby as her own. When they appeared in front of the king, both claiming the baby as their own, the king said to saw the baby in half and give each mother half the baby. One woman said no! Give the baby to her. The king declared selfless woman to be the real mother since she wanted the baby to live even if it meant that she would not have it.

I see no connection.

[DRbeauty]

It shouldn't be about what's best for her family it should be about what's best for Terry. Yeah they might find comfort in her still living, but what about her?No one should have to suffer like that.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by SLAW

I see no connection. [/B]

The connection is that the one who loves wants the person to live. both sides disagree on what this woman wanted. In view of that life should win. Starving aperson to death is a little harsh when loved ones are against the death. It is so easy to just keep her alive at his point. It doen's t impact the husband so he should just let it be.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by DRbeauty
It shouldn't be about what's best for her family it should be about what's best for Terry. Yeah they might find comfort in her still living, but what about her?No one should have to suffer like that.


She is not in any pain. she is living like the people who have Alzheimers or other people who are in vegetative states. i know of a young boy who drown at three and was brought back to life. He is in his twenties now and is no different than Terri. He is able to eat however but these is nothing there mentally. Should they stop feeding him? Who gets to make this decision? This has great implications. What if in the next three years a drug is developed that will snap people out of these states. Wouldn't that be embarrassing? Oops- too bad about Terri.

if it was me- I have told everyone- my family and my husband not to ever put a feeding tube into me- they need permission to do that. I don't want anyone to prolong my life but I don't want anyone to kill me. That would be dangerous for society as a whole.

[Jim H]

The family claims that he lost interest in her shortly after he won the million dollar judgement against the doctor. He says the family wants the money.

Virtually all of that money is gone, due to the cost involved.

[DRbeauty]

Originally posted by Lynn7
She is not in any pain. she is living like the people who have Alzheimers or other people who are in vegetative states. i know of a young boy who drown at three and was brought back to life. He is in his twenties now and is no different than Terri. He is able to eat however but these is nothing there mentally. Should they stop feeding him? Who gets to make this decision? This has great implications. What if in the next three years a drug is developed that will snap people out of these states. Wouldn't that be embarrassing? Oops- too bad about Terri.

if it was me- I have told everyone- my family and my husband not to ever put a feeding tube into me- they need permission to do that. I don't want anyone to prolong my life but I don't want anyone to kill me. That would be dangerous for society as a whole.

True she might not be in any pain. But there are worse things then pain sometimes. I mean she's in a vegetative state, why would u want a loved one to live like that? She's never going to recover. That's very selfish to me. Could u honestly say that if you turned into a "vegetable" you'd want to be kept alive?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by DRbeauty
True she might not be in any pain. But there are worse things then pain sometimes. I mean she's in a vegetative state, why would u want a loved one to live like that? She's never going to recover. That's very selfish to me. Could u honestly say that if you turned into a "vegetable" you'd want to be kept alive?


I would not want to live like that or have a loved one live like that but it is not my decision- it should be the decision of the family. The husband wants her dead and the family Parents, sister and brother want her alive- in this case alone I think the ones who want life should win. The husband has moved on with his life- the family wants to maintain a connection with her.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I would not want to live like that or have a loved one live like that but it is not my decision- it should be the decision of the family. The husband wants her dead and the family Parents, sister and brother want her alive- in this case alone I think the ones who want life should win. The husband has moved on with his life- the family wants to maintain a connection with her.

So you want to move some of the rights from spouses to the immediate family?

[quoth_the_raven]

The humane thing to do would be to let her die. If I was in a stare like that, I would want my parents/significant other to allow me to do die. A death with a little dignity. If you want to look at this way, the spark has gone, but the shell remains.

Legally, a person can't be murder unless they are in rerum natura- "in being". Part of this if a person is medically prounounced as being in a state of brain death, then the subsequent removal of treatment by a competent medical practitioner can not be murder. I'm not a medical man, would a vegetative state be equivalent to brain death? Or are there still some basic, near instinctive functions still going on?

[countchocula]

In my opinion, a vegetable is dead. The parents wouldn't be able to cope with the loss of their daughter, which is the only reason why they're reticent to pull the plug. They aren't taking Terri's welfare into consideration. I don't know why anyone would want to let this fester. They should let Terri rest in peace. It would benefit everyone involved.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by quoth_the_raven
The humane thing to do would be to let her die. If I was in a stare like that, I would want my parents/significant other to allow me to do die. A death with a little dignity. If you want to look at this way, the spark has gone, but the shell remains.

Legally, a person can't be murder unless they are in rerum natura- "in being". Part of this if a person is medically prounounced as being in a state of brain death, then the subsequent removal of treatment by a competent medical practitioner can not be murder. I'm not a medical man, would a vegetative state be equivalent to brain death? Or are there still some basic, near instinctive functions still going on?

She is not brain dead, since she can breathe and do other things on her own. I'm not sure if she has any higher brain functions going off though.

[quoth_the_raven]

Originally posted by Jim H
She is not brain dead, since she can breathe and do other things on her own. I'm not sure if she has any higher brain functions going off though.


Brain dead or not though, my stance remains unaltered. I just don't think its right to keep a person alive in that state...it just seems...wrong?...maybe thats not the right words but I think you know what I mean. I don't see as there is a human left, even if the body is working on auto...if you want to use the term ( i don't really but i am going to), you could say the body is there but the soul isn't.

[BadCoverVersion]

Originally posted by Jim H
She is not brain dead, since she can breathe and do other things on her own. I'm not sure if she has any higher brain functions going off though.

A PVS patient does not respond to pain, sound, light, hunger and much, much more...when a loved one ceases pumping food into their body, they WILL die.

Technically they are not brain-dead, but they are as good as.

Terri is now a shell, and she deserves just one thing...a DIGNIFIED end.

[DRbeauty]

Her loved ones are doing what's in their best interest not hers. Just because this is her daughter does not mean that they have her best interest in mind.

[Lynn7]

I think usually the spouse does have the final word over a spouse however these two were not married very long. There was some concern that once the guy was awarded the money he lost interest in her getting well. he claimed the oppsite. this has to be reviewed case by case. In this particualr case the only peoplewho ever heard her express that she would'nt want to be kept alive were the husband and his sister. None of her friends or her family ever heard her say this. Whatever. Each case is different.

If this was a husband who had been married to her for ten years and they had a child together and Terri had had no contact or minimal contact with her family then I would be on the husband side.

If it was clear cut then the doctor would just be able to decide-"She's a vegetable, therefore we are going to remove the feeding tube and let her die." End of story. This isn't clear cut.

It feels weird to take this side of the issue casue I have let everyone I know know that I would not want to be kept alive but Iguess if I knew that my family needed me to be alive as a vegetable then I would agree to it- wahtever makes it easier for them. A freind of mine always says "What do I care if I get Alzheimers? I won't know the difference!" I love her attitude but the thought of being out of control is firghtening to me.

One word of warning since everyone is so definite on this issue-don't let them put a feeding tube into your loved one- they need your permission to do that- once its in its hard to get them to take it out again. Just don't go there.