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sharkstank
06-22-2004, 10:34 PM
on his site james berardinelli wrote this defence of phantom menace
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June 22, 2004 (Tuesday):

The Phantom Defense

It has become fashionable over the last five years to bash all things related to George Lucas in general, and The Phantom Menace in particular. Let me be the first to say that Lucas deserves a fair amount of criticism. He's not what one might call a fan-friendly man, and, over the years, he has been guilty of money grubbing of the worst kind (think of all those people who bought about eight different versions of the original Star Wars movie on VHS and laserdisc, just so they could have the new bells & whistles). But casting down a perfectly entertaining space opera on the grounds that it's not the second coming of Star Wars is ludicrous and unfair. So the time has come for someone to step up and defend The Phantom Menace. And, since I gave the movie ***1/2 at its release, and have not changed my opinion since then, I'll accept the task.

Think back to May of 1999, a week before the release of Episode 1. No film in the history of cinema had been more anticipated. The level of expectation was through the roof. Hardly anyone was talking about anything else. You couldn't go anywhere or read anything without running into a Phantom Menace reference. I was asked dozens of times each day whether I had seen the movie (I had, but was sworn to secrecy until the day before it opened). Not since the opening of Star Trek: The Motion Picture had I witnessed such a fan-inspired frenzy. However, this time, the spillover washed over all aspects of pop culture, spreading far and wide from the hardcore fan base. It was insane... glorious, but insane. And it necessitated a major letdown.

It isn't possible to have that kind of humongous buildup without a similarly large letdown. You drink too much and get high, then crash and wake up with a hangover. The two go hand-in-hand. Those who went into The Phantom Menace expecting it to be the best movie of the year, or the decade, or the century, or ever, were misguided from the start. Why saddle any movie with such unreachable expectations? I approached the film modestly, remembering that Return of the Jedi had been a disappointment, and there was no reason to expect The Phantom Menace to be better. What I saw on that evening when I attended a pre-release screening was a movie that was more engaging than the Ewok-infested, poorly-paced Episode 6, but something that was not quite up to the level of storytelling provided by Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. In short, the biggest foe faced by The Phantom Menance was the level of anticipation. Fair? No. But realistic.

Frankly, a lot of people went into this movie expecting to have a similar experience to what they underwent on a balmy summer evening in 1977. No matter how good The Phantom Menace was, that wasn't going to happen. The genie was out of the bottle. In 1977, Star Wars was new and fresh (although not original). It crashed unexpectly into pop culture and dug out a niche. By the time The Phantom Menace arrived, the niche had become a well-fortified trench. And everyone around it had grown up.

Most die-hard Star Wars fans are around my age - between 30 and 40. They saw the first film when they were a child, and it left a lasting impression. The passage of time, which always amplifies a cherished memory, made the experience of seeing Star Wars something more than just sitting in a darkened theater watching images on a screen. There's magic in the memory, and to ask The Phantom Menace to re-create the magic isn't fair, because the circumstances are so different. Ask a 9-year old kid who saw The Phantom Menace in 1999 what he/she thought of the film, and you're likely to get a postive response. (I know, because I have asked quite a few.) 9-year olds liked The Phantom Menace. With them, it wasn't competing with any ghosts. 35-year olds didn't. The question is, is that because it wasn't a very good movie or because their perceptions were colored by shades of past Star Wars images? I believe it to be the latter, and I'll continue this defense by looking at some of the most common charges leveled at Episode 1.

The Plot: Considering the corner he backed himself into by deciding to make prequels (rather than sequels), Lucas did a respectable job crafting the story. It's got all the important bits - a beginning, a middle, and an end; segments on various planets; comedy, action, and tragedy; and it introduces all of the major characters and themes. Like the original three movies, it's a simple tale of good vs. evil. And, in the climax, it uses the same kind of intercutting that was a hallmark of Return of the Jedi. This generates a surprising amount of tension and energy. The main complaint about the plot seems to be that it lacks originality. You won't get an argument about that from me, but I don't see it as a drawback. The same criticism can be leveled at Star Wars, which was just as straightforward and occasionally hokey. Yet what was viewed as charming in 1977 is suddenly crass and creatively bankrupt in 1999? Huh? Lucas isn't cannabilizing himself any more in The Phantom Menace than he was stealing from Kurosawa, earlier serials, and space operas in Star Wars. Plus, I think a lot of the die-hard fans are simply pissed off that the movie didn't go in exactly the direction they had wanted. Expectations again.

The Screenplay: I hear all the time about how painful the dialogue is. Granted, it's not Shakespeare, but it gets the job done. Lest a reminder be needed, the original Star Wars had its share of clunkers and howlers, and even the line that everyone remembers ("May the Force be with you") is silly - it's just that it caught on and was repeated everywhere. If you're attending a Star Wars movie in search of meaningful dialogue and deep character interaction, you have wandered into the wrong theater.

The Actors: The actors appearing in The Phantom Menace take a lot of abuse, but I would argue that this ensemble is an improvement over the group that headlined Star Wars. Okay, so Jake Lloyd is a little raw, but he's also a kid. Natalie Portman is a better actress than she shows here, but she's okay. Ditto for Ewan McGregor. Liam Neeson and Ian McDiarmid are good. Look back to 1977, when it's hard not to cringe every time Mark Hamill utters a line of dialogue. Harrison Ford's woodenness is striking. And Carrie Fisher's performance doesn't scream "Oscar." All we're left with is Peter Cushing and Alec Guiness, both of whom are admittedly superb. (I don't count Darth Vader, since he's wearing a mask and is voiced by someone other than the actor playing him.)

The Villains: Here's where The Phantom Menace falls short of Star Wars. There's no Darth Vader. And, although Darth Maul is a perfectly acceptable short-term bad guy, there is a little bit of a vacuum, because Vader is only ten years old and is still on the good side. In limited screen time, Maul radiates enough malice to capture the attention of kids, proving that Lucas understands what's needed to fashion a villain. And Sidious, although more malevolent, is too much in the background to be a factor.

The Pod Race: A lot of people don't like this sequence, but I think it's one of the most exciting and visually interesting portions of the movie. And, in addition to being fun, it reveals a few things about Anakin's character.

The Special Effects: It's hard to imagine anyone complaining about the effects in Episode 1, but some people did. I guess they thought there were too many or that the movie looked overly computer-generated. Personally, I thought what Lucas accomplished added a rich texture to the story. For the most part, the effects were integrated seamlessly. Lucas has always been about pushing the edge when it comes to visuals, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the effects eclipse the characters. To an extent, they did that in 1977 as well. (It doesn't look that way in retrospect because, by today's standards, those effects are modest. But that wasn't the case when the movie came out.) The light-saber battle between Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Darth Maul showed us a battle the likes of which we had never seen in a Star Wars movie.

Jar-Jar Binks: Sorry, but I don't have a defense for this one. It was a colossal mistake, although kids seem to like the CGI embarassment. Fortunately, Lucas dramatically downsized his role in Attack of the Clones.

I have a feeling that, once all six movies are available, The Phantom Menace will be looked upon more kindly. Stripped of expectations and set in its proper place as the first chapter of a six-part story, it is a more appealing experience. It's hard to imagine anyone expressing dislike of The Phantom Menace without using the word "disappointing." That's a subjective evaluation that can't be argued against. Ultimately, this is Lucas' vision, and not anyone else's, and, as far as I'm concerned, what he has done with The Phantom Menace (and also Attack of the Clones) is consistent with the way in which he developed and concluded the original trilogy.

Feel free to argue, but I'm holding my ground...
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i personally disagree with him. i like the star wars films, but i am only 17 and i wasnt looking forward to this movie. i saw it about three years, and i found it too be flat. it was mediocer (**) but not really bad persay. but thats just me.

WWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

bmain77
06-23-2004, 03:18 AM
I tend to agree with most everything said in this article. The hype leading up to this movie set it up for major failure. I'm a big Star Wars fan, but I think I'm far from a hardcore follower and even I ran out and grabbed every magazine and bought nearly every action figure. I usually don't get caught up in frenzies like this. And it also showed I had way too much money to spend that spring and summer.

The point is though everyone was expecting this huge religious experience and instead what they got was a pretty good kids movie. Which I argue the original series was in a lot of ways. I grew up with them and love them to this day, but they really are kids movies (or maybe family movie is a better category) just like the current series seems to be.

I will say that after seeing the complete LOTR series I wish George had handed off control of the series to someone with more passion and vision like Peter Jackson. But I'm not giving up hope yet. It wasn't until after the third LOTR that I can say that I was a big fan of the series. THat movie tied it all together for me for some reason in away that made me appreciate the other two a whole lot more. I'm hoping Episode III does the same thing. And I think it might. I like Phantom a bit more after watching Attack of the Clones. If this pattern continues then the Episode three for me anyways will be very good.

jaw2929
06-23-2004, 04:18 AM
I completely agree with the points in the article... very well written :)

Cal
06-23-2004, 08:10 AM
Not much of a rant, is it?

cstroman
06-23-2004, 11:51 AM
Sorry, these lines do NOT belong in a Star Wars movie:

"Muy, Muy I love you"

"Exqueeze me!"

"Any help here would be hot."

Basically anything JarJar said.

Oh and having a kid play Anakin was stupid.

Put a teenager in there about Natalie's age and raise the level of intelligence of Anakin, none of this,

"Let's try spinning!"

He's supposed to be one of the best Starpilots in the Galaxy."

JCPhoenix
06-23-2004, 12:09 PM
that was a well-written argument by one of my favorite critics. but it doesn't change anything for me. especially since i never held the original trilogy as a big deal, so there really was no "magic" from the first three to have pressure for the prequels to be good. i viewed all five as just movies, and as such, i absolutely hated phantom menace. the wooden dialogue is a major one because even in the original star wars, it wasn't as horrific sounding as it is in phantom menace. jake lloyd is yes a kid, but there are tons of good kid actors out there. he's one of the worst EVER. he seriously ruined a lot of the movie for me (YIPPEEEEE! SHUT. THE. FUCK UP!), and ditto with Jar Jar Binks. Frankly, i thought Attack of the Clones was a lot better than Phantom Menace and was more on par with the rest of the series, though still not near the original three. (I gave Attack 6, i'd give the original trilogy overall an 8).

The Heart Collector
06-23-2004, 01:55 PM
Gotta agree with those points. I still like the PHANTOM MENACE. The only thing I don't like about it are a few scenes in which it seems like they were experimenting with having a bluescreen background for scenes that didn't really require one, and thus actors act somewhat unconfortable. But it was fun, childish, and entertaining, damn it. Damn it, damn it. Damn it. *clenches fist*

Jon Lyrik
06-23-2004, 02:29 PM
TPM bored me to death. There was no heart, no good story, no good villian (Maul was only in it for, what, 10 minutes?), and it left me feeling tired and empty. And the characters are as bland as paper. Where is the cocky charisma of Han Solo? The boyish sense of wanting of adventure of Luke (Anakin was annoying in this movie)? Heck, even the duo of R2D2 and C-3PO had something to add to the original trilogy. Here they have cameos and we get Jar-Jar fucking Binks for comic relief.

Even the special effects are nothing special. Almost all of it looks rubbery and cartoonish. Especially the character effects. The character effects on the guys in the Pod Race sequence looked pretty abominable.

Awful, awful movie. And AOTC is no better.

gyro_44
06-23-2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Jon Lyrik
Even the special effects are nothing special. Almost all of it looks rubbery and cartoonish. Especially the character effects. The character effects on the guys in the Pod Race sequence looked pretty abominable.
Whaaa? I'll have to call foul there, Lyrik. I thought the pod race was amazingly done. My eyes were glued. That and the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Darth Maul lightsaber battle (which I would say is easily the best in the entire series) are two big reasons to watch.

Otherwise, if I were to watch TPM again, I'd probably be similarly bored to tears. The scenes on Tatooine are totally awful. I still say that there is something worse than Jar Jar in this film, and it is Jake Lloyd. He is a demon child.

Nicely written defense by JB. I respect him for holding his ground.

Shockwave
06-23-2004, 07:30 PM
Gotta agree with those points. I still like the PHANTOM MENACE. The only thing I don't like about it are a few scenes in which it seems like they were experimenting with having a bluescreen background for scenes that didn't really require one, and thus actors act somewhat unconfortable. But it was fun, childish, and entertaining, damn it. Damn it, damn it. Damn it. *clenches fist*

Gotta agree, i loved it despite itself. Soem of the acting was cring worthy but some of it was fantastic. For everything i didnt like about it i found 10 things i did.


...but it was also the first Star Wars movie i had seen. Even after seeing all of them i still think its the most imaginitive of the 5 released so far and feels like the most epic.

To me The Phantom Menace is stilll twice the movie the Matrix Sequels tried to be, since at least it was brave enough to give us something new and not the same old wordy shlok with a new coat of paint.

ComeNightfall
06-23-2004, 07:44 PM
I'm a SW fan, and since I never got to experience the original trilogy in the theaters, I was excited about TPM. Although there were things that I thought could have been done differently (Jar-Jar especially), I still liked it overall. The Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fight was breathtaking and "Duel of the Fates" is probably one of the best pieces of SW music ever. It also didn't hurt that Neeson & McGregor, two awesome actors, were in the movie. I also liked Anakin's mother, but I was a little disappointed that Lucas chose not to have a real father for Anakin.

Attack of the Clones was okay, the acting made me cringe in certain spots, but the action scenes were great. I also liked seeing a young Boba Fett.

It's all the merchandising that's out of control, but I realize it brings in money.

Saruman
06-24-2004, 02:00 AM
There is nothing wrong with Star Wars. End of story.

ilovemovies
06-24-2004, 03:23 AM
I'm probably the only person who prefers this current trilogy to the original. So I agree with almost everything he said (I actually didn't find Jar Jar Binks to be too bad, he was ok imo). I personally loved both of these prequals and the light saber fight between Maul/Obi wan & Qui-gon was one of the most thrilling action/fight sequences in any movie I have ever seen, period!

HeavyK
06-24-2004, 11:00 AM
I liked it too. Alot of people hated the film mainly because of Jar-Jar but come-on. Jar Jar was in their for the kids and if you ask any 4 to 10 year old they'll say they loved the character. Star Wars has to have some kid's stuff in their like the Jar Jar character and young Anakin saying "Yippee" and stuff like that. It can't all be dark like the Empire Strikes Back and have only cool bad-ass mature character's that teens and adults will like but little kids couldn't care less about.

Fisting Ackbar
06-24-2004, 04:52 PM
I saw PHANTOM MENACE originally a couple of months after it's release, thought it was alright. Saw it again two years ago around the time AOTC came out and realized how bad it actually was, for reasons explained by others in this thread. So the whole "too high expectations" thing doesn't apply with me.

Either way, I still enjoy reading Berardinelli's stuff.

Jon Lyrik
06-24-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Saruman
There is nothing wrong with Star Wars. End of story.

*thinks of a way to debunk this*

Hmm...yes there is, and my opinion is better than yours! As is my milkshake! Let's declare war on our milkshakes!

Alot of people hated the film mainly because of Jar-Jar but come-on. Jar Jar was in their for the kids and if you ask any 4 to 10 year old they'll say they loved the character. Star Wars has to have some kid's stuff in their like the Jar Jar character and young Anakin saying "Yippee" and stuff like that. It can't all be dark like the Empire Strikes Back and have only cool bad-ass mature character's that teens and adults will like but little kids couldn't care less about.

There is a way to entertain youngins and adults without grating one group or the other.

Shockwave
06-24-2004, 09:39 PM
There is a way to entertain youngins and adults without grating one group or the other.

I disagree, ive seen MANY movies that both age groups love and are made for that very reason.

Scarface98.9
06-25-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by sharkstank

Look back to 1977, when it's hard not to cringe every time Mark Hamill utters a line of dialogue. Harrison Ford's woodenness is striking. And Carrie Fisher's performance doesn't scream "Oscar." All we're left with is Peter Cushing and Alec Guiness, both of whom are admittedly superb. (I don't count Darth Vader, since he's wearing a mask and is voiced by someone other than the actor playing him.)


I disagree with this. I don't cringe everytime Mark Hamil says something. He does fine with the dialogue he was given, and acquitted himself well as a straight man. I disagree about the woodenness, and think he's cool as Han Solo. Fisher's fine, and I doubt anyone would expect Oscar anyways, nor were they aiming for that, so I don't see why he made that comparison

sharkstank
06-25-2004, 02:40 AM
just for the lazy people, that quote is from berardinelli's part, not mine:)

and i think lyrik is saying the same thing as u shockwave.

WWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Jon Lyrik
06-25-2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Shockwave
I disagree, ive seen MANY movies that both age groups love and are made for that very reason.

Dude, that's exactly my point.

I disagree about the woodenness, and think he's cool as Han Solo.

Yes, definitely. I love Ford in Star Wars. His cocky attitude added a lot of flavor to the original.

Common Sense Man
06-25-2004, 01:05 PM
Any sane person would understand that EPI could not come close to A New Hope, but that aside EPI fell extremely short and had many faults.

The biggest fault was the acting.

Jake was crap, period. And if you don't buy that simply look around the film world and see how many other roles he has gotten since then.

A starring role in a SW flick should be your red carpet to stardom but he sucks ass!

Compare him to Hailey Joel whatever his name and you get the picture.

Yes the Pod race was good as well as the final Duel, but most of the story was crap and it did not engage the audience as the originals did.

And I know George has a goal of making a completely CGI movie with no humans but the tech is not there yet and Jar Jar looked and sounded terrible.

Attempting to make the Gungans a feared fighting race after introducing Jar Jar was impossible, thusly stealing any real tension from the major battle scenes.

George needs to stick to helming the project and leave the Directing and script polishing to the pros.

EPI and EPII are not utterly terrible but they are nothing compared to the Original Trilogy.

George listen to me, give Ewan 90 percent of the screen time in EPIII and you just may pull it out.

Out............................................... ......................

Shockwave
06-25-2004, 01:06 PM
Dude, that's exactly my point.

Yeah, it was late and i mis-read. I thought u said there ISNT a way.:)

Mr. Fred Krueger
06-25-2004, 04:26 PM
the Directing and script polishing to the pros.

Lucas IS a pro. Star Wars was nominated for Best Picture back in 1977 and his style hasn't changed a bit. Spielberg even thinks Lucas is the better director out of the two.

It's gonna be funny when people watch 1-6 as intended. They'll be singing a completely different tune when it comes to the prequels.

Scarface98.9
06-25-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Fred Krueger
the Directing and script polishing to the pros.

Lucas IS a pro. Star Wars was nominated for Best Picture back in 1977 and his style hasn't changed a bit. Spielberg even thinks Lucas is the better director out of the two.


Spielberg thinks Lucas is the better of the two? And this is coming from the guy who made Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, Minority Report, The Color Purple, Jaws, etc.?

Badbird
06-28-2004, 03:25 AM
Spielberg Just said that to be nice. Lucas has directed all of five movies, with a twenty year gap between two of 'em.

I believe it is possible to live up to hype: T2, X2, Spider Man, Harry Potter, and Jurassic Park all had a tremendous amount of hype, all did blockbuster business, and are all genuinely liked. I equate TPM to Godzilla. I truly believe that if Godzilla had been a good movie, it would have set box office records that would still be standing to this day. The hype for that movie was so intense it was unbelievable. But people hated it and word of mouth spread so fast that by the end of the five day weekend the brakes had been stepped on hard.

If TPM had truly been a good movie, I think the same may have been possible. But it didn't have the one thing the originals had: heart.

Saruman
06-28-2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Badbird

If TPM had truly been a good movie, I think the same may have been possible. But it didn't have the one thing the originals had: heart.

The understatement of the year. TPM has just as much heart as all the other films. What did you expect from TPM? The same story from the OT told again?

Common Sense Man
06-28-2004, 01:29 PM
All I can say is that Spielbergo was being gracious, you don't call a friend you have worked with a hack.

And I was there for the original trilogy and I am going to have a very hard time watching it from EPI to EPVI because the technology gap will make the movies look so much different.

And the prequels are stealing some of the OT thunder by using catch phrases that were made famous by Han, Ben and Luke.

I guess the line "I have a bad feeling about this" is as popular as saying "hello" is today as it seems everyone in the galaxy says it at one time or the other.

And I challenge anyone to compare the emotional context of Spielberg against Lucas.

You know if you think about it.

When Lucas made A New Hope the tech wasn't there like it is today.

He HAD to Direct. Even though ILM created ground breaking effects and whole new systems to produce them they were all based on stop motion or blue screen, very little what we would call CGI.

So there were sets, he had to direct the actors because he didn't have the chance to go back in post and cut out a person, move them to the other side of the set, shrink them down, make them say their lines at a different time to a different person, etc.

If you haven't watched some of the behind the scenes stuff you may not realize just how much digital manipulation Lucas does. He changes a ton of crap and not just small stuff.

If you can change an actors position, who he is talking to, how his lines are timed, why make sure to get it right when you film it?

I can see the future now, Lucas shooting each actor by themselves in a green room and then piecing the entire movie together in post.

Out............................................... .........................

Neesh
06-28-2004, 05:08 PM
When I saw this topic I was expecting something along the lines of 'The Chewbacca' Defense.

Mr. Fred Krueger
06-28-2004, 06:49 PM
And the prequels are stealing some of the OT thunder by using catch phrases that were made famous by Han, Ben and Luke.

How is it stealing thunder? It's CONTINUING a theme that's in all of the movies. People forget that I-III are not separate films. They are IN LINE with the OT.

As for Lucas not directing the actors, that's ignorant. The actors of the OT and the new trilogy really have nothing bad to say about Lucas' involvement in motivation.

And no, Lucas' only direction is NOT "faster more intense."

So there were sets

There are still sets. Are there scenes that are completely blue/green screen? Yeah. But there are still plenty of sets, MODELS, puppets, men in suits, etc.

One thing people don't seem to realize, also, is the amount of blue screen used in the OT. It's a lot more than most like to think.

SLAW
07-06-2004, 12:14 AM
I absolutely agree with just about everything in that article. I think TPM is some good fun. Too much expectations from thirty year-olds expecting the same experince with a fantasy movie that they had when they were seven. Needless to say, of course they were disapointed. Was the movie made for thirty year-olds or familes? In that case, were the original movies made for thirty year-olds or familes? Nostalgic geeks didn't enjoy the TPM. So sorry.