Bill Cosby's Rant

[Lynn7]

I am moving this quote to a new thread since we have been discussing this topic under "The Bush Ad" and it is hard to remember where the discussion is.

By DON BABWIN, Associated Press Writer

CHICAGO - Bill Cosby (news) went off on another tirade against the black community Thursday, telling a room full of activists that black children are running around not knowing how to read or write and "going nowhere."

He also had harsh words for struggling black men, telling them: "Stop beating up your women because you can't find a job."


Cosby made headlines in May when he upbraided some poor blacks for their grammar and accused them of squandering opportunities the civil rights movement gave them. He shot back Thursday, saying his detractors were trying in vain to hide the black community's "dirty laundry."


"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other n------ as they're walking up and down the street," Cosby said during an appearance at the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition & Citizenship Education Fund's annual conference.


"They think they're hip," the entertainer said. "They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."


In his remarks in May at a commemoration of the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision, Cosby denounced some blacks' grammar and said those who commit crimes and wind up behind bars "are not political prisoners."


"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth."


Cosby elaborated Thursday on his previous comments in a talk interrupted several times by applause. He castigated some blacks, saying that they cannot simply blame whites for problems such as teen pregnancy and high school dropout rates.


"For me there is a time ... when we have to turn the mirror around," he said. "Because for me it is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in."


Cosby lamented that the racial slurs once used by those who lynched blacks are now a favorite expression of black children. And he blamed parents.


"When you put on a record and that record is yelling `n----- this and n----- that' and you've got your little 6-year-old, 7-year-old sitting in the back seat of the car, those children hear that," he said.


He also condemned black men who missed out on opportunities and are now angry about their lives.


"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."


Cosby appeared Thursday with the Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites), founder and president of the education fund, who defended the entertainer's statements.


"Bill is saying let's fight the right fight, let's level the playing field," Jackson said. "Drunk people can't do that. Illiterate people can't do that."


Cosby also said many young people are failing to honor the sacrifices made by those who struggled and died during the civil rights movement.


"Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till," he said, naming the black youth who was tortured and murdered in Mississippi in 1955, allegedly for whistling at a white woman. "And you're going to tell me you're going to drop out of school? You're going to tell me you're going to steal from a store?"


Cosby also said he wasn't concerned that some whites took his comments and turned them "against our people."

"Let them talk," he said.

[Lynn7]

I'll post my reply from the Bush Ad here too, since it involves this topic:


quote:
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Originally posted by Thrizzle
I fail to see inherent racism in an issue that doesn't involve race. Liberals believe in helping all those who are disadvantaged..... not survival of the fittest.

But i honestly would like to hear what Bush and Bush Sr. have done to help African Americans.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Bush has tried to revolutionalize the educational system by implementing school choice but becasue of the teacher unions the program was watered down- they said that if the money left the public schools the schools would become poor and the kids would suffer- Wrong!! The schools would become accountable and they would improve through competition and everyone would win. (The teachers are afraid for their jobs- if kids left the public schools for private then they would get laid off). A big city near where i live implemented school choice in the city many years ago. One day I was shocked to hear a good friend of mine hoping to get her kid into a school in a really bad neighborhood- why? Becasue of school choice this school had to become competitive to attract students and had become one of the city's finest schools. Competition works-money talks. Bush understands this.

Also Bush appointed Rod Paige (an African American) to his cabinet for education (Secretary of Education). He is in the highest education position in the entire country. Bush also appointed Colin Powell to represent our country to other countries and Condi Rice as his closest and most trusted advisor to help administrate our National Security- that is putting your money where your mouth is!


Also, it is not survival of the fittest that Repubs believe in- they beleive that African Americans have the same brains that whites do and when given the proper motivation as students they will soar. Too many inner city kids are being warehoused and passed along to the next grade whether they can read or write or not. Bush does not want any kids to get passed along to the next grade until they can do the work- if there is a problem identify it and fix it- don't give up on the kids. When the bar is raised the kids will perform. It is an optimistic philosophy.

[ANavissi500]

I have always had immense respect for Dr. Cosby and I think that he is not only qualified to say such things about the community that he has been working for all of his life, but he is brave for saying them. Dr. Cosby is obviously pained that what he has been a part of has lost its way in his eyes and he wants to re-energize a big part of his life. It's like he is giving society and intervention.

[KcMsterpce]

I still think it's cool that Cosby is trying to bring a voice to the unspoken truths of what some people do to themselves and blame others for.

Unfortunately, the people who need to listen - and are the cause of the things that Cosby mentions - are the same people that will refuse to listen. They are the same people who will blame anyone but themselves for everything that is wrong in their lives.

They're the same people that are going to tell Cosby to 'go fuck himself', and think that he's turning against the black community 'because he's rich and talks like a white boy.'

[jeo4]

Originally posted by ANavissi500
I have always had immense respect for Dr. Cosby and I think that he is not only qualified to say such things about the community that he has been working for all of his life, but he is brave for saying them. Dr. Cosby is obviously pained that what he has been a part of has lost its way in his eyes and he wants to re-energize a big part of his life. It's like he is giving society and intervention.

I agree wholeheartedly. Cosby has spent his entire life not only making a name for himself, but also working for the black community. That there are so many people ignoring opportunities and pissing away their lives is sad. He's right to say something.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by KcMsterpce
I still think it's cool that Cosby is trying to bring a voice to the unspoken truths of what some people do to themselves and blame others for.

Unfortunately, the people who need to listen - and are the cause of the things that Cosby mentions - are the same people that will refuse to listen. They are the same people who will blame anyone but themselves for everything that is wrong in their lives.

They're the same people that are going to tell Cosby to 'go fuck himself', and think that he's turning against the black community 'because he's rich and talks like a white boy.'

You hit the nail on the head. Best post about this topic yet. He makes a completely valid point. Now how many people are going to blast him for it?? And how many of them are the same waste cases he's pissed about? I'd bet most of them. They'd rather have the "poor me" victim attitude and not do anything to build their own lives but take from others.

[Lynn7]

The problem in the black community has been the leadership. There has been an attitude that if you don't go along with what the leadership says then you will be called an "Uncle Tom" That is why so many young kids are afraid to excel in school- they fear the label of Uncle Tom if they are seen to be getting A's. These kids have great potential but some of the Black Leadership (J. Jackson in particular) has found that making the community into victims increases their political power.

Rev. Martin Luther King was a great leader who wanted the best for the black community and becasue of him and others like him great strides were made. Now the time has come for empowerment and a decisive grabbing hold of improving black fortunes.

[Sigur509]

I agree fully with everything Cosby said.

[Morgana]

As a white person, it is hard for me to presume what is going on in the black community. Yes, blacks marched in the 60s for their rights, and they won... but why they aren't taken advantage of them like Cosby would like them to I think is a very complex issue. I think it may come down to ambition. We have plenty of poor, uneducated, white people also... why aren't they all ambitious enough to get out of their mysery? Why can't everyone be rich and successful?

On one hand I can see what Cosby is saying... he demonstrated that a black person CAN be successful. And I think he wants every black person to at least try the same. But, since he can't instill ambition and drive into every black person, maybe that is why he is frustrated and critical.

Are blacks being lazy and are just taking the easy road by playing the martyr? That's not for me to answer. That's a question they need to ask themselves.

I just don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun), as Cosby makes it sound. An uprising, or a revolution, is easy. The aftermath, the rebuilding, never is.

[notchreturns]

Originally posted by Morgana
As a white person, it is hard for me to presume what is going on in the black community. Yes, blacks marched in the 60s for their rights, and they won... but why they aren't taken advantage of them like Cosby would like them to I think is a very complex issue. I think it may come down to ambition. We have plenty of poor, uneducated, white people also... why aren't they all ambitious enough to get out of their mysery? Why can't everyone be rich and successful?

On one hand I can see what Cosby is saying... he demonstrated that a black person CAN be successful. And I think he wants every black person to at least try the same. But, since he can't instill ambition and drive into every black person, maybe that is why he is frustrated and critical.

Are blacks being lazy and are just taking the easy road by playing the martyr? That's not for me to answer. That's a question they need to ask themselves.

I just don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun), as Cosby makes it sound. An uprising, or a revolution, is easy. The aftermath, the rebuilding, never is.

What she said.

Bravo!

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7
The problem in the black community has been the leadership. There has been an attitude that if you don't go along with what the leadership says then you will be called an "Uncle Tom" That is why so many young kids are afraid to excel in school- they fear the label of Uncle Tom if they are seen to be getting A's. These kids have great potential but some of the Black Leadership (J. Jackson in particular) has found that making the community into victims increases their political power.



That's not necessarily a black thing. Pretty much all kids are discouraged from standing out in an intelligent manner in school. I remember being in history class and giving a row of correct answers and some knucklehead in the back shouted out "Nerd!", to which I quickly replied "Smarter then you!". He didn't say much of anything back.

One of my classmates, who is black, stated a similar problem. He'd be criticized by other black kids his age for "acting white" which he questioned "Why? Cause I speak correctly?"

The whole patina of "dumb is cool" is a problem with kids of all races. Its the crab bucket analogy. No one wants to see anyone succeed above them so they try to pull that special individual back down with them.

One of the main problems that is affecting the black community is infantilization. You have all these lawyers and leaders coddling their psyche and making them believe that everytime something bad happens its somebody else's fault. Some unseen entity is trying to keep them where they're at. Racism does exist, but can you honestly tell me that 100% of all bad experiences are an issue of racism?

If the deck is stacked so firmly argainst balcks then there would be no stories of success black individuals, but there are. And those individuals are successful because whtever knocks they took they didn't attribute them to forces outside of their control, on the contrary, they realized how much of their lives were within their control and focused on that. And that formula spells success for any individual, regardless of race or color.

That's what Bill was getting at.

[DRbeauty]

Originally posted by Morgana
As a white person, it is hard for me to presume what is going on in the black community. Yes, blacks marched in the 60s for their rights, and they won... but why they aren't taken advantage of them like Cosby would like them to I think is a very complex issue. I think it may come down to ambition. We have plenty of poor, uneducated, white people also... why aren't they all ambitious enough to get out of their mysery? Why can't everyone be rich and successful?

On one hand I can see what Cosby is saying... he demonstrated that a black person CAN be successful. And I think he wants every black person to at least try the same. But, since he can't instill ambition and drive into every black person, maybe that is why he is frustrated and critical.

Are blacks being lazy and are just taking the easy road by playing the martyr? That's not for me to answer. That's a question they need to ask themselves.

I just don't think it's as black and white (pardon the pun), as Cosby makes it sound. An uprising, or a revolution, is easy. The aftermath, the rebuilding, never is.

I'm black and I wholeheartedly agree with what Cosby said. I agree with you for the most part. However, you have no idea how many times I've heard a lot of black people blame white people for their problems in life. And it's like "hello? The majority of the white people in America don't care if black people are successful or not. They have nothing to do with you not doing anything for yourself." I think it's pretty sad that now there are so many oppportunities for blacks to further themselves and some of them don't take it. I think it's because they don't want to work for it. I'm not saying everyone but it's true for a lot of them. that's why you see a lot of these movies that have them becoming successful through either drug dealing or whatever. Because it's easier for them to do something illegal then to actually work for their money.

[Benny]

Originally posted by electriclite
That's not necessarily a black thing. Pretty much all kids are discouraged from standing out in an intelligent manner in school. I remember being in history class and giving a row of correct answers and some knucklehead in the back shouted out "Nerd!", to which I quickly replied "Smarter then you!". He didn't say much of anything back.

One of my classmates, who is black, stated a similar problem. He'd be criticized by other black kids his age for "acting white" which he questioned "Why? Cause I speak correctly?"

The whole patina of "dumb is cool" is a problem with kids of all races. Its the crab bucket analogy. No one wants to see anyone succeed above them so they try to pull that special individual back down with them.

One of the main problems that is affecting the black community is infantilization. You have all these lawyers and leaders coddling their psyche and making them believe that everytime something bad happens its somebody else's fault. Some unseen entity is trying to keep them where they're at. Racism does exist, but can you honestly tell me that 100% of all bad experiences are an issue of racism?

If the deck is stacked so firmly argainst balcks then there would be no stories of success black individuals, but there are. And those individuals are successful because whtever knocks they took they didn't attribute them to forces outside of their control, on the contrary, they realized how much of their lives were within their control and focused on that. And that formula spells success for any individual, regardless of race or color.

That's what Bill was getting at.

I agree. It took me about 8-9 years of schooling before I was finally somewhat respected among my peers and teachers for being "smart."

Cosby's points are spot-on though, I think. There are stereotypes, not just among blacks but among other races too, that blacks aren't supposed to excel in academic pursuits but in other fields such as athletics. Too many black kids are brought up believing all they need to do in life is become stars at athletics or famous rappers, and push education aside. I'm not trying to discourage black youths from dong these, I'm just saying there should be more emphasis paid to their educations as well. Blacks should look up to leaders such as Colin Powell, Jesse Jackson, MLK, just as much as celebrities like Michael Jordan, 50 Cent, and Chris Rock. Dave Chappelle makes similar points to Cosby's but in his stand-up routine.

But I think along with black helping thenselves out, I think the government needs to do a better job to help blacks in need of a better education. They need to upgrade predominantly black inner-city schools, and make sure the kids are getting a good education there, much more than the current No Child Left Behind Act is doing now. Yes, there are white kids who have the same problems too, but they seem much more prevalent in the black community. Look at Asian-Americans in this country. They were persecuted for many years but now many have succeeded in schools here, and sometimes the parents of these chidren are chastized for putting too much pressure on their children to succeed and do well. A little of this among other ethnicities, such as blacks but also hispanics and caucasians, could go a long way.

[Lynn7]

I think cosby's message can be applied equally to whites as well as blacks- he is saying to take education seriously it is a privelege for whites as well as blacks. Many years ago there wass no middle class and only the upper classes could get an education. We all need to be grateful for the opportunities in this country. And parents need to teach their kids respect and responsibilty.

The difference as far as what Cosby is doing is that this is something new for a person to confront the black community with the issue of personal resposibility becasue it undercuts the nmessage of some leaders who want to use the issue of victimhood for their own personal agenda. And there have been black leaders who have spoken of personal responsibilty before but they never get any air time-Cosby gets air time.

and Ken Hamblin a black activist for personal responsibilty was saying that Cosby was not talking to all blacks just to the ones who are not paying attention. There are plenty of black families who ARE doing the right thing and that is why we are seeing such an improvement in job intgation with black lawyers, doctors, nurses, business men etc

[Jim H]

The schools would become accountable and they would improve through competition and everyone would win.

Except those schools that fell way behind, as some kids pull out and others don't right?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Jim H
Except those schools that fell way behind, as some kids pull out and others don't right?

Some teachers might get laid off if there were less students but that would sure encourage that school to improve and attract kids back- if not they deserve to go under. Give me a class of kids- give me a book for each child and some paper- I will teach that class. Why do the scools need all this money- it goes to the stupidest things. (There is a lot of waste in education)And many times at the end of the year the kids have not even gone thru half the book casue they are too busy teaching the kids about self esteem and other foolishness.

Becasue the schools refuse to discipline and remove the kids who act up, no one learns and then it is a self perpetuating problem- the kids act up becasue they know they can get away with it. If parents start to remove their kids from schools that lack discipline, discipline WILL be imposed and the kids will be better off and will have self esteem becasue they will be learning instead of warehoused.

[Jim H]

Some teachers might get laid off if there were less students but that would sure encourage that school to improve and attract kids back- if not they deserve to go under.

You're proving my point further. That will fuck over the children who are in dying schools. Terrible system.

Our current one isn't much better, of course.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Jim H
You're proving my point further. That will fuck over the children who are in dying schools. Terrible system.

Our current one isn't much better, of course.

When a patient is sick you need to do a little surgery to excise the tumor- then he can regain his strength and return to health. Do you honestly believe the scjhools would suffer if some of the kids chose to go to better schools? They would not be forced to leave school-they would still be educated. Not too many of the inner city schools are giving a good education now. The problem is with the management, not the kids. Accountability is the only answer. Wasn't there a movie based on a real story about how a hard- ass administrator turned things around but it wasn't popular. "Lean on Me?"

It 's like when you have a kid, you need to discipline the kid or you will have trouble. These schools are not enforcing discipline and some parents would like the chance to send their kids to schools that are safer and provide a good eduaction which they are not currently recieving. The main fear is that the money would go away from the teachers (inthe form of layoffs), NOT the students.

[Jim H]

The problem is with the management, not the kids. Accountability is the only answer.

An enourmous problem is also how incredibly poorly funded public schools are in America. Not just in the inner city either. Take my first high school - one of the richest areas in America, and we had a school at 110% capacity with 40 kids to a classroom. Our text books were often falling apart and outdated.

It is just far worse in the inner city. I'm not saying the schools also don't have management problems, but funding is a serious problem.

Do you honestly believe the scjhools would suffer if some of the kids chose to go to better schools?

Your proposed system says the funding would leave with the children. So obviously, one school would suffer and another would gain with every student who left. It is already that way of course, since they do a headcount annually to determine funding, but that would just exacerbate it.

[SLAW]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Some teachers might get laid off if there were less students but that would sure encourage that school to improve and attract kids back- if not they deserve to go under. Give me a class of kids- give me a book for each child and some paper- I will teach that class. Why do the scools need all this money- it goes to the stupidest things.

oh my God.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by SLAW
oh my God.

Slaw, let me respond- my local school had printers for computers that sat in a storage room for three years. Brand new, donated. They weren't what the principal wanted so she did not return them for what she wanted she just let them sit until they became outdated for the school's computer system. This is the kind of waste I am talking about.

How much does it cost to get a book? How much does it cost for paper and pencils.That is all you need to educate kids. The MILLIONS of dollars spent on education is going to the wrong things. And the kids aren't learning. What is up with that.

I went to a city school. In jr high, one of my teachers (science) never taught us a thing- she put makeup on in class each day and gossiped with a few of the girls in the class. Another teacher (math) used to have his girlfriend come to class to visit and he would have us fold our hands on the desk and watch the clock while he "visited" with his girlfreind inthe back of the class. We had pretty good books but we sure weren't using them.

The money is not going to the kids. It is being spent on administration. Many of the teachers are inept. Some of the teachers discourage the kids from succeeding thinking that they are not able to learn- they just pass then ahead whether they have learned or not. Some of the parents in the inner city schools want choice-why should they be denied the ability to change their kids to another school if the school they are in is not performing? School choice does work- it has worked locally and the shcools have improved.

Some kids have a hard time with bullies in a particular school and they aren't able to switch to another school. Some kids are targetted by teachers (continually written up)and could benefit from a fresh start in a new school- the parents know what is best for the kids-not the teachers unions.

[DRbeauty]

Originally posted by Lynn7
\Why do the scools need all this money- it goes to the stupidest things.

Hey, purchasing a new football uniforms and such are not stupid.;)

[SLAW]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Slaw, let me respond- my local school had printers for computers that sat in a storage room for three years. Brand new, donated. They weren't what the principal wanted so she did not return them for what she wanted she just let them sit until they became outdated for the school's computer system. This is the kind of waste I am talking about.

Yes, and cutting special eduscation is the answer. Everything has been cut with education during this administration.


How much does it cost to get a book? How much does it cost for paper and pencils.That is all you need to educate kids. The MILLIONS of dollars spent on education is going to the wrong things. And the kids aren't learning. What is up with that.

Some kids learn, some don't. If we teach every child the same (NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND), this course will continue.

I went to a city school. In jr high, one of my teachers (science) never taught us a thing- she put makeup on in class each day and gossiped with a few of the girls in the class. Another teacher (math) used to have his girlfriend come to class to visit and he would have us fold our hands on the desk and watch the clock while he "visited" with his girlfreind inthe back of the class. We had pretty good books but we sure weren't using them.

He was a bad teacher. I don't know what to tell you.

The money is not going to the kids. It is being spent on administration. Many of the teachers are inept. Some of the teachers discourage the kids from succeeding thinking that they are not able to learn- they just pass then ahead whether they have learned or not. Some of the parents in the inner city schools want choice-why should they be denied the ability to change their kids to another school if the school they are in is not performing? School choice does work- it has worked locally and the shcools have improved.

There are some silly rules around that kind of stuff. From what I understand it usually IS acceptable for a child to switch public schools if they are in an under achieving one.


the parents know what is best for the kids-not the teachers unions.

Parents should decide where their kids go to school. Some don't have such huge luxeries, thus not many options. I on the other hand do think teachers who are actually paid might make better teachers.

PS: education is more than pencils and books. More needs to be put into creating better learning environments and if precious green paper needs to be put on the line for it, then so be it. maybe we can take more paper away from the things that aren't so important...like Mars.

[Jim H]

How much does it cost to get a book? How much does it cost for paper and pencils.That is all you need to educate kids

You also need good teachers. There's a shortage of those.

[Thrizzle]

One problem you have with education is that the wealth is not distributed evenly. This is the cycle the American school system is caught in:

Rich counties get more funding due to taxes ---> More funding means luring teachers away from poorer counties ---> the better the schools, the higher the demand to go to them ---> higher demand, increased realistate prices ---> Rich county gets richer with more funding

Anyway, thats what i remember from my liberal teacher lecturing us on the Ed. system.

[Lynn7]

I think there are a lot of good teachers who have left the system because of the lack of discipline imposed on the kids. The undisciplined kids are ruining it for the kids who want to learn and the teachers who are not supported by the administration leave the profession.

My mother-inlaw was a teacher at the city high school. If someone mouthed off or swore at her she would send them to the principal's office and the kid would be backa gain in minutes. She said that if a teacher reprimanded a kid and the kid complained to the parents and the parents complianed, the admin would always side with the parent and not the teacher.

On the other side there are many inept and uncaring teachers who are insenstive to the needs of some students. My feeling is that one size does not fit all. Let there be school choice. Let the schools be more inventive and disciplined in the way they run their schools. Let the market forces decide and the people will be able to decide where they want to send their own kids. If you want to send your kid to a school w ithout discipline that is fine but someone who wants a stern class with stern rules can send their kid there.

I am all for special education but there are way too many kids who are placed in that category who do not need to be there in order to increase the level of special needs kids. And this mainstreaming that has been going on is really ineffective, IMO/ Most parents hate it when their kids are placed in mainstream classes but have no option. Our local schools will NEVER let their kids be changed inot a different classroom let alone a different school, even if the teacher has been picking on a child. They dont' want to set a "precedent" for other parents that may be unhappy with their child's teachers. Meanwhile the city next door does have school choice and it is working well.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by Jim H
You also need good teachers. There's a shortage of those.

Agreed. There are too many kids in classes not learning the basics needed to function in everyday life. I think there should be fewer students per class and more focus on each child's performance. Teachers are grossly underpaid and overworked, IMO. And kids suffer as a result.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by jeo4
Agreed. There are too many kids in classes not learning the basics needed to function in everyday life. I think there should be fewer students per class and more focus on each child's performance. Teachers are grossly underpaid and overworked, IMO. And kids suffer as a result.

Yeah, I was lucky in that regard... Switched high schools and got one with much, much, much better teachers and around 7-14 kids in a class instead of 40.

[Dixiecup]

I agree with Lynn. I went to school here in Texas, and everyone knows that Texans LOOOVE their athletics programs, especially football. The kids that weren't involved in sports were outcasts, more or less.

I strongly believe, (and please keep in mind that I pay approx. $1,300 a year for school taxes- even though I don't have kids in the ISD, and haven't been there myself in over a decade), that if kids want to participate in sports, the parents should be paying more to support the various programs, and allow the tax dollars to go towards science labs, books, and various scholastic programs. I wouldn't mind it as much, but when I get my tax breakdown, and see that more money goes to the ISD than the Hospital, roads and bridges, etc., it just pisses me off.

As for Dr.Cosby's comments. I couldn't agree more. I believe he said something that blacks/whites/hispanics/asians, etc. feel, and I applaud him for having the guts to say it.

My background is cajun. If I walked around talking like one, plus a little country Texan thrown in, people would look at me like I was un uneducated bumpkin. Just my 2 cents.

[Cyclonus]

Well, other posters on this thread, and on its counterpart in the celebrity gossip forum, have done an excellent job of contributing some very intelligent, thoughtful posts. I thought I'd post a link that partly illustrates why some people are angry over Cosby's statements. I do not have the expertise to determine how much truth it contains. All I can do is offer an opposing viewpoint and hopefully learn something from how subsequent posts argue for or against it.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/csby-j14.shtml

[Lynn7]

Great article for discussion-



"The vast majority of black people he is addressing do not lead lives of upper-middle-class privilege and economic security. They are working people, many of whom face substandard conditions, often struggling to raise a family on less than poverty wages. Their children generally attend schools that are underfunded and understaffed. In predominantly black communities in cities across the US, the public schools are in a state of desperate disrepair."


I beleive that the problems that faced Black families twenty years ago aren't the ones that are currently holding people back. Twenty years ago there were still some problems with discrimination (and there will always be some-even white people get discriminated against for various reasons) but today there is much more equality of opportunity.

I think the biggest destructive force in black families today is that it has become the culture to not get married. Married people with kids fare much better in life than single parents. Living on two incomes or on one income where the other parent is home with the kids is much more productive. Thekids do better in school, they live better lives financially and they are in a position to take better advantage of opportunities.

We all know people who are living on the edge and I acan only speak of the people I know, but some of them (white and black)have made very poor choices that have resulted in a bad standard of living. On the other hand, I know many black families in particular that have prospered enormously- they have committed to their marriages, disciplined their kids and the kids go on to great success. One of the black women in my community is heavily involved with the PTO and lots of fundraising stuff for the school. she's a real mover and shaker and her son is now attending Harvard. Her other kids are at the tops of their classes. This is because she cares about them and their future. She is not out barhopping and picking up guys.

The Cos is just trying to speak to people who can do better if they disciplined themselves to pay attention and to stop making selfish choices that do not take their children into consideration. He is really blaming their parents- not the kids. Didn't he say he blamed the kids until he heard the mother talk?

There are some families who have just had some terrible luck but that is not who he is addressing, i am sure. He's talking to people who should know better. It is just a call to look back at their history and take pride and build on the successes of the black heroes.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Great article for discussion-


I think the biggest destructive force in black families today is that it has become the culture to not get married. Married people with kids fare much better in life than single parents. Living on two incomes or on one income where the other parent is home with the kids is much more productive. Thekids do better in school, they live better lives financially and they are in a position to take better advantage of opportunities.




Yeah, but marriage doesn't save you from divorce.

The last survey I read stated that most kids living in substandard conditions in the ghetto don't even live with ONE of their biological parents! Not even one! And I've known a couple of kids growing up who lived with only their grandmas.

Also a significant amount of kids living in the ghetto actually suffer from post traumatic stress disorder. Children are suffering from the same mental disorder that Vietnam vets came back with. I think the lack of offically married couples is just one of many symptoms plaguing the community.

The problem with most inner city schools is that they end up taking the role of the parents, since most of the kids don't have parents to begin with. School breakfast and lunch ends up being the only meal kids eat for the whole day, and they have to deal with crap that goes down in the streets being brought into the school. Where else can you be in the same building with the guy who shot your brother and not be in a courtroom?

Scary stuff.

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Cyclonus
Well, other posters on this thread, and on its counterpart in the celebrity gossip forum, have done an excellent job of contributing some very intelligent, thoughtful posts. I thought I'd post a link that partly illustrates why some people are angry over Cosby's statements. I do not have the expertise to determine how much truth it contains. All I can do is offer an opposing viewpoint and hopefully learn something from how subsequent posts argue for or against it.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jul2004/csby-j14.shtml

I think this is certainly a very interesting viewpoint. I haven't done any research though, so I don't have the necessary data to either argue for or against it. I would like to touch on the Cosby Show itself though, since it was mentioned in the article.

Although very entertaining, I have never known a black family like there was on the Cosby Show. The show always seemed a little unrealistic to me. Granted, I don't know every single black person in the US, but the blacks I knew and was friends with were on a much lower economic level. Some were raised by a relative rather than their own parents. And in Tacoma, WA, where I went to high school...the black neighborhood there was called Hilltop, it was a poor, crime-ridden area that, at the time, was overrun by Crips and Bloods. That's the black neighborhood I got to see with my own two eyes, a black family like on the Cosby Show I have never known. That's not to say they don't exist, I'm just saying I don't think the Cosby Show represents the typical black family. Or, really, any family for that matter. I have never known a family of any race that lives in such a eutopia.

I don't know if it's downright silly to pick apart the Cosby Show (which I watched and enjoyed for many years), as its main purpose is entertainment. But I'm just wondering whether the show is Bill Cosby's idea of what black families should be aspiring to. And if so, how realistic that can be.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by Morgana

I don't know if it's downright silly to pick apart the Cosby Show (which I watched and enjoyed for many years), as its main purpose is entertainment. But I'm just wondering whether the show is Bill Cosby's idea of what black families should be aspiring to. And if so, how realistic that can be.



I remember hearing once that The Cosby Show was supposed to be a format for Bill to put on display his theory on how to parent children without the use of physical punishment or verbal abuse.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by electriclite
Yeah, but marriage doesn't save you from divorce.

The last survey I read stated that most kids living in substandard conditions in the ghetto don't even live with ONE of their biological parents! Not even one! And I've known a couple of kids growing up who lived with only their grandmas.

Also a significant amount of kids living in the ghetto actually suffer from post traumatic stress disorder. Children are suffering from the same mental disorder that Vietnam vets came back with. I think the lack of offically married couples is just one of many symptoms plaguing the community.

The problem with most inner city schools is that they end up taking the role of the parents, since most of the kids don't have parents to begin with. School breakfast and lunch ends up being the only meal kids eat for the whole day, and they have to deal with crap that goes down in the streets being brought into the school. Where else can you be in the same building with the guy who shot your brother and not be in a courtroom?

Scary stuff.

You make a lot of really good points. Hopefully people will start to make some better choices so the kids can have a more secure childhood. Lots of drug use and alcoholism that comes into play- hopefully the welfare reform act will cut back on some of this over the years. I think dependency on welfare casued a lot of problems from low self esteem and boredom leading to substance abuse.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by electriclite
I remember hearing once that The Cosby Show was supposed to be a format for Bill to put on display his theory on how to parent children without the use of physical punishment or verbal abuse.

Yeah I think he used his show to model a healthy black family. They might have overdone it a bit- he was a doctor and she was a lawyer or something, right? Maybe she could've been a nurse or something? :D

[Jim H]

Although very entertaining, I have never known a black family like there was on the Cosby Show.

I have. Where did you grow up?

Not really related, but I still find it astounding how few interracial couples there are. Just reminded me of that. You'd think all this race crap would become anachronistic one of these days. Maybe eventually...

[Morgana]

Originally posted by Jim H
I have. Where did you grow up?



I actually partly grew up in the Czech Republic, where we had no black people at all. Isn't that sad? I didn't actually meet a black person until I immigrated to this country and was in high school. My high school in Tacoma had about 40% black students, and I thought that was really cool. I finally felt like I was living in the real world.

I guess I should specify that I don't think the values that the Cosby Show demonstrated were unrealistic, the blacks I knew were good people. But I just don't think the show accurately reflected their economic, or even, family situation. (One of my closest friends was a black gal who didn't even know who her father was. But then I also had quite a few white friends whose parents were divorced. So I don't think the breakdown in the family structure is unique to the black community.) And I am strictly speaking from personal experience, I'm not claiming I know and have seen it all. Your experience was obviously different from mine.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by Morgana
I actually partly grew up in the Czech Republic, where we had no black people at all. Isn't that sad? I didn't actually meet a black person until I immigrated to this country and was in high school. My high school in Tacoma had about 40% black students, and I thought that was really cool. I finally felt like I was living in the real world.

I guess I should specify that I don't think the values that the Cosby Show demonstrated were unrealistic, the blacks I knew were good people. But I just don't think the show accurately reflected their economic, or even, family situation. (One of my closest friend was a black gal who didn't even know who her father was. But then I also had quite a few white friends whose parents were divorced. So I don't think the breakdown in the family structure is unique to the black community.) And I am strictly speaking from personal experience, I'm not claiming I know and have seen it all. Your experience was obviously different from mine.

Well... I grew up fairly close to Detroit, which is the most segregated large city in America. I know what you mean. I can't say I knew a lot of upper middle class type black people, but then again, I also didn't know a lot of black people at all.

[Cyclonus]

I live in Milwaukee, and if it isn't the most segregrated major city in the country, it sure gives Detriot a run for its money. I'm fortunate to live on the fashionable east side, right by the lake, but then there's the impoverished, crime-infested northwest side, reputed as the worst part of the greater Milwaukee area (the south side is supposed to be a bit rough too, but not nearly as bad). What strikes me is that whenever I cross the river to go to Wal-Mart, I suddenly see so many black people around--there are some on my side, but not nearly as many.

[Lynn7]

I grew up in one of the largest cities in Mass and it is now very integrated. Many of the people on the city council are black. Most of the principals are black and many of the police officers are black. Neighborhoods are very mixed with blacks and whites owning homes. Mixed marriage is very accepted.

There is an inner part of the city that is very crime ridden and we do hear about a lot of gang shootings downtown and there is lots of drug use etc in that part of the city. For people who are willing to make changes, there are opportunities and strategies to be taken. Some people choose the way of the gangs and others choose to take regular jobs and improve their standard of living. i do feel bad for the kids who are being raised by the irresponsible people casue their models for behavior are poor. That's where other people can play a part by mentoring some of these kids.