Wolf pack manipulation

[The Postmaster General]

Owners of the wolves featured in a new Bush ad are claiming that the ad makers had told them they were shooting a Greenpeace commercial.

"When the camera crew showed up, we wondered why they were all driving Hummers."

You can read more about it here:

http://www.wolfpacksfortruth.org/


Also, factcheck.org (not to be confused with anti-Bush site factcheck.com, or John Stewarts peeve FatChicks.com) has debunked the "facts" in the ad mentioning Kerrys has in fact supported regular intelligence spending increases prior to 9/11, and also the fact that many Repulblicans supported the same cuts they rack on Kerry, incuding Bush's current CIA Director. Also, while Kerry proposed one cut in 1995, a Republican-sponsered cut actually became law - eliminating $1 billion in intelligence funds.





IMO - while I find both sides to engage in manipulation, to me, Bush's camp is playing MUCH more dirty. Compare this ad with Kerry's "animal" ad saying America should be more like an Eagle. I think both sides wanted to emmulate Reagan's bear ad from 84 (http://livingroomcandidate.movingimage.us/election/index.php?nav_action=election&nav_subaction=overview&campaign_id=173) , but, to me while Kerry has envoked that spirit, Bush is resorting to scare tactics.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
IMO - while I find both sides to engage in manipulation, to me, Bush's camp is playing MUCH more dirty.

During the Republican National Convention, there were people giving wrong directions to the convention throughout New York. There have been bullying efforts at the polls. People have ripped signs off of lawns and replaced them with opposing signs or simply defaced the signs. There were prostesters inside and outside the RNC. Kerry supporters were heckling Republicans walking in the door and trying to disrupt speeches. They even tried to heckle Bush during his acceptance speech. When John Kerry yesterday said "Unlike the Bush campaign, I welcome everyone," I laughed out loud.

[Lynn7]

I am one who is not that impressed with the wolf commercial. I thought they would have been better off using lions and also If I was writing the commercial I would not even bring Kerry into it at all _ I would just show that predators are lying in wait to attack us.

The eagle commercial is funny to me casue I see that Kerry is the ostrich and Bush is the eagle. Kerry thinks terrorism is a law enforcement issue while Bush sees it as war.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by jeo4
During the Republican National Convention, there were people giving wrong directions to the convention throughout New York. There have been bullying efforts at the polls. People have ripped signs off of lawns and replaced them with opposing signs or simply defaced the signs. There were prostesters inside and outside the RNC. Keprry supporters were heckling Republicans walking in the door and trying to disrupt speeches. They even tried to heckle Bush during his acceptance speech. When John Kerry yesterday said "Unlike the Bush campaign, I welcome everyone," I laughed out loud.

You might have a bigger point if they were acting at Kerry's discretion rather than people acting on their own, or if you pointed to actions by people Kerry directly employs. The wolf ad is an example of that (or you can see stupid ads from Kerry's side on factcheck.org), the voter base being assholtastic is not.

[jeo4]

That is the beauty of sites like factcheck.org. They show both sides for the right and wrong being done in these personal attacks. I love that. And after visiting that site, my point still stands. I don't just think that the asshole behavior of some supporters is their personal doing. It happens on both sides, and I'd bet that both sides either encourage this behavior or turn a blind eye to it.

[The Postmaster General]

Supporters of both sides are stealing signs.

You have to read this story. I heard it on the news today. It's hillarious:



Homeowner's Elaborate Rigging Busts Kerry Sign Thief

POSTED: 9:22 am EDT October 27, 2004
WINONA, Minn. -- A Minnesota man has come up with an elaborate way to catch the people stealing John Kerry campaign signs from his yard.

And it almost worked the other day.

Rick Carpenter screwed his 2-by-4-foot Kerry sign to the wall of his house and coated it with Vaseline. His wife, Veronica, chipped in by running fishing line from the sign into the house and tying it to wind chimes.


The chimes sounded about 1 a.m. Saturday. Carpenter said he was out the door so fast he forgot he wasn't wearing pants.

Carpenter said four of the five culprits fled. One apologetic woman remained behind, saying she couldn't stop her Bush-supporting boyfriend from going after the sign. She told Carpenter she likes Kerry.

http://www.thehometownchannel.com/politics/3859775/detail.html


When I said "dirty" I was solely refering to the things that end with "I'm blah blah, and I approve this ad." Sorry if that wasn't clear -- I thought it was since I talked about ads in the entire paragraph.

I also agree with Lynn about the wolves being uneffective. I know many people who keep wolves as pets, and you don't hear too often about people being scared of wolves.

Then again, maybe Little Red Riding Hood had a deep impact on Bush's life. Haha. Now THAT'S dirty! :D


Jeo4 - I agree it happens on both sides, but from your initial post it sounded like you were saying that Bush is clean compared to Kerry. I think Kerry's quote about welcoming everyone is in reference to the fact that NO ONE who didn't whole-heartedly support Bush was allowed to attend the RNC. If you ask me, that might have filtered in more assholes than not. Someone who hated Bush had to go to great lengths to get in to that convention -- hardly a typical Kerry-supporter, but more of an extremists.

And how can you compare people protesting with playing dirty? I mean, if Kerry had less protestors than Bush -- How is that manipulation? People protested Bush long before the election season.

It's striking to me that you would compare the fact that Bush had more protestors than Kerry with the fact that Bush's campaign told someone they were filming a Greenpeace commercial when they were really making a smear ad.



Kerry thinks terrorism is a law enforcement issue while Bush sees it as war.

Sorry Lynn7, but Bush also thinks it's a law enforcement issue. I know you've heard of The Patriot Act?

And how can you possibly say Kerry doesn't see it as a war? He voted to invade Iraq, and Afhghanistan.

I think the words Kerry used that you are twisting, said that we need more security in our backyards. No matter what you, or the RNC say, the terrorists who took down the Trade Center trained in Venice, Florida - not overseas. They got on planes in America - not overseas. They resideded in America - not overseas.

[Lynn7]

Bush sees it as war and he also knows that we need to have everyone in the country Including law enforcement on alert, including citizens. He does not beleive in prosecuting terrorists in courts. Kerry says he did not vote to go into Iraq and Afghanistan- he trusted Bush to try everything before he went in (Which he did) but he says he never meant it as permission. He even voted agaisnt the first Iraq war and is on record saying he thought taht war would be OK if the UN was in charge- not America. This guy is a real UN supporter even to the point of thinking they are better at doing things than the US. He will probably get us into Kyoto and the World court if the congress lets him. We will begin to lose soverignty of our country.

[Jim H]

I know many people who keep wolves as pets

Really? That's unwise.

He will probably get us into Kyoto and the World court if the congress lets him. We will begin to lose soverignty of our country.

What's wrong with the world court? I've heard you say you dislike it, but the only reason you've said that is because it could be abused. Of course it could be, but a lack of one has already been abused millions of times...

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Jim H
Really? That's unwise.




Agreed.

I know of one person personally, and on several occassions have been tempted to free the animal, but am worried about - you know, it getting hit by a car, or something. Live and let live on that one for me, but I do get drunk and vocal about it's containment.

For the dude's defense, though, he loves it to death, and she's a gorgeous creature, but damn... Those things aren't meant to be domestic.



Kerry says he did not vote to go into Iraq and Afghanistan

Could you provide proof of this? I've never heard this before. I'm not saying it's untrue, but um, okay, I'm saying it's untrue. If Kerry didn't vote this way, which I know he did, it would also make Bush a flat out liar, as he's mentioned himself.

You are distorting the facts, Lynn7.

[jeo4]

Jeo4 - I agree it happens on both sides, but from your initial post it sounded like you were saying that Bush is clean compared to Kerry. I think Kerry's quote about welcoming everyone is in reference to the fact that NO ONE who didn't whole-heartedly support Bush was allowed to attend the RNC. If you ask me, that might have filtered in more assholes than not. Someone who hated Bush had to go to great lengths to get in to that convention -- hardly a typical Kerry-supporter, but more of an extremists.

And how can you compare people protesting with playing dirty? I mean, if Kerry had less protestors than Bush -- How is that manipulation? People protested Bush long before the election season.

It's striking to me that you would compare the fact that Bush had more protestors than Kerry with the fact that Bush's campaign told someone they were filming a Greenpeace commercial when they were really making a smear ad.

I never tried to make a direct comparison between the two. If it came out that way, I didn't intend it to. I just found it funny that you had said that you thought the Bush camp was "more guilty" of playing dirty than the Kerry campaign when there are multiple supporters out there in both camps doing it. I also find it laughable how Kerry said that he welcomed opposing views to his speeches. I saw many more people from his party at the RNC. And no, that isn't just protestors. To say that one party is more guilty than the other of this kind of behavior would just be wrong to me. And Kerry's comment is only made more ignorant by the fact that he didn't even pay attention to what had happened. The RNC had pretty much no choice but to let these people into the convention, same as his party during his last stump speech. What else could they have done??

This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. People are always finger pointing and crying foul. And these negative campaign ads and public slams to one another are just getting very old. If there was ever a time for campaign reform, I'd welcome it now. I can't wait until this election is over because it's been the ugliest mudfest I've ever had the misfortune to see. The comments were ignorant and not particularly well thought out. The negative attacks were obnoxious and in some cases complete lies. Again, this applies not to one, but BOTH parties.

[The Postmaster General]

Word!

As I've agreed though, both parties are guilty of this, but the Kerry ads are less offensive to me. Like I've mentioned somewhere else, I think both guys are probably decent chaps who want what's best, but Kerry's style just suits me more. Different strokes and all. I wasn't trying to dimminish what you were saying. All your points are dead-on. Sorry if it came across differently.

Campaign reform is spot on. Like I've said somewhere else as well, they need to stop these loop holes and workarounds for the politicans to make these ads. If I had it my way -- there would be no TV ads what-so-ever, because no national problem can be summarized in 30 seconds, and no matter how you make it, there is going to be some level of distortion.

I've always found that printed ads are more effective, and tend to make the candidates explain their positions better, but really, I think the most true thing is -- shoot, I can't think of what they are called, but people who get out and campaign for who they support. Also, they shouldn't be paid to do that shit, because half the time (prob. more or less) they don't even know about who they are going around telling people who to vote for. I remember at a local election, some girl was standing outside, and asked me to vote for a particular candidate, and it happened to be someone I was backing -- So I said "Sure. He's for (can't remember the issue) isn't he?" and she just smiled and looked at another person who was handing out flyers and neither knew.

To me that's just... um... not right to me. I can't call it exploitation in a legal sense, because they get paid and all, but moraly I think it is. If a candidate is trully good for the country, people are going to get out there and spread the word, and not care about getting paid (ideally.... I think....) Overall, I just wish they'd take money out of the equation, which they tried to do, but those loop holes are there, and they play them. Mostly, I'd like to get the media out of the picture, at least somewhat, because they are supposed to be objective, and no matter what if someone is paying your station more than the other guy because they are running more ads, it's hard to imagine there wouldn't be somewhat of a bias. If anything, I think politicans should be limited to community access, and public television. At least that would give the little guys a chance to be heard equally.

However, what I'm suggesting would never happen, because IMO, The Media has these people's nuts in a vice, and any attempts to remove the media from this equation would result in shit I hate even worse.

(Bubba shakes his fist like an 80 year old man can) We're doomed I tell ya'! Doomed!

Haha - No, I'm optimistc, but damn your right on about how the campaign system sucks ass. Sorry for going off so much about it, but this, and the money factor are really the only things that bothers me about our political system. It's missing the point.

[The Postmaster General]

Has anyone else heard about thwat Lynn is talking about -- Kerry saying he didnt vote for the war....

I was really hoping the have a quote or more info today. Is this somehow going to turn into something to do with handwashing practices.