Confederate flag

[HannibalGuy]

http://www.rebelclub.org.uk/images/Confederate%20Flag%20Normal%20jpeg.jpg

A very controversial issue, sparked by a thread in the music forum, I decided to post this poll. Do you think the flag is racist? I don't. To me, the flag represents southern pride, and heritige. It also represents the south during the civil war, and it just so happens that slavery was legal. That, IMO, does not make the flag racist. You can call me an ignorant redneck if you want, it wouldn't be the first time.

[JohnTheHenchman]

I don't think it's racist.

But I do think that racists have turned it into a racist symbol.

[Twisted Sister]

Originally posted by HannibalGuy
http://www.rebelclub.org.uk/images/Confederate%20Flag%20Normal%20jpeg.jpg

A very controversial issue, sparked by a thread in the music forum, I decided to post this poll. Do you think the flag is racist? I don't. To me, the flag represents southern pride, and heritige. It also represents the south during the civil war, and it just so happens that slavery was legal. That, IMO, does not make the flag racist. You can call me an ignorant redneck if you want, it wouldn't be the first time.

Hi, Hannibal,

I believe the answer is yes to both sides of the argument. The Confederate flag represents many things, some good, some bad. Depends on who you ask. I think the majority of southern white folk would agree with you that it represents pride, and it does, for them. It is quite probable that many blacks would feel differently, and that it represents a period in US history that not only ALLOWED racist attitudes to prevail, but encouraged them as well.

[MacReady]

You brought up the topic of the confederate flag in another thread (along with your feelings about it) and I felt this response best described how I felt about it:

Originally posted by Elgyn
I think what Madhatter was originally trying to say (and I agree), is that if the confederate flag isn`t racist, then by that same token, a swastica isn`t anti-semetic.

P.S. I know I should't speak of this here, but why no response to my PM?:(

[free]

Originally posted by MacReady
[B]I think what Madhatter was originally trying to say (and I agree), is that if the confederate flag isn`t racist, then by that same token, a swastica isn`t anti-semetic.

I agree with this opinion 100%.

I live in Alabama, and believe me, most of the people around where I live don't show the confederate flag for "pride".

And anyway, what pride is there in a time when every human being wasn't equal, and when we ridiculed, shunned, and sometimes killed people because of their skin color.

The only "pride" I have in that past is the day Lee surrendered to Grant.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
I don't think it's racist.

But I do think that racists have turned it into a racist symbol.

I agree with this point 100%.

White supremacists made it into a racist symbol.

[HannibalGuy]

Originally posted by jeo4
White supremacists made it into a racist symbol.
Right. It's because of those people that people feel it's racist.

[The Postmaster General]

We're talking about the flag that originally was intended as a symbol of the land which wanted to succeed from the Union in an effort to contain black slaves, right?

I don't see how only supremicists have "made" that into a racial thing, unless you are saying it was originally designed as a slavery thing -- either way, it has a history that is outmoded. But I see where you all are coming from there. Read on....

I didn't vote in this thread, because I'm not sure that the line of the question provides for all the details. To me, the poll is asking if people who wave the flag are racist, and to that, I say no.

Do I think it is a racist symbol? Because of it's history, I'd say yeah.

I'm just not sure everyone waving it are totally aware of it's history. It's a cultural symbol, and that's about all there is to it IMO.

Since moving from Florida to the North, I have yet to see one, and actually recently spoke with someone about how often you would see them down South, and they acted somewhat surprised. This is another reason leading me to beleive that people who use it aren't racist.

So, all-in-all, I think the flag has a racist history but that people who support the flag aren't racists.

It's just how you look at it. Really, it's just a piece of cloth, and to say it's racist is sort of silly, because, well, it's cloth and doesn't judge. That makes no more sense than saying a T-shirt with no sleeves is hardcore. You have to look at these things on an indivudual basis. I never heard the Dukes of Hazzard talking about any lynchings.

On the other hand, to say it has no racist connetation is also ignoring it's history.

I don't think any one can really be right or wrong about this question.

IMO - It SHOULD NOT be banned. People justify why it should, but to me, the reasons make as much sense as saying that we shouldn't allow Japanese flags, Korean flags, and the sort.

If a community feels it's flag should or shouldn't have it included - that's a state issue.

I don't just feel it's white supremicists that make it racist, it could also be the people who say it's racist that makes it racist, because I'm sure many times people waving it haven't even looked at it as a race issue.

For me, it all boils down to what context the flag is used. One the back of a truck? Probably not. In a KKK rally - You betcha.


You know, I imagine my response could be taken out of context and me be accused of "flip-flopping...." ;)

"BubbaStrangelove..... how does he feel about the flag? On one side he says that it's a historic symbol with racist background, on the other hand he says white supremicists make it racist. Where does he stand? Does he support racism?

I'm George Bush and I approve this message."

[Tom Samborski]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
I don't think it's racist.

But I do think that racists have turned it into a racist symbol.

That pretty much sums it up from my perspective.

[Twisted Sister]

Originally posted by free
And anyway, what pride is there in a time when every human being wasn't equal, and when we ridiculed, shunned, and sometimes killed people because of their skin color.



VERY well said. My feelings exactly! How people can be proud of this is beyond me.

[Elgyn]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
We're talking about the flag that originally was intended as a symbol of the land which wanted to succeed from the Union in an effort to contain black slaves, right?


Yep, that one. The one that stood for the keeping of slaves. You know, the one some people still claim isn`t racist.


[B]Really, it's just a piece of cloth, and to say it's racist is sort of silly, because, well, it's cloth and doesn't judge. :D :D

Well yeah, you`re right of course.
But then, a flag with a swastica is just a piece of cloth.
A 'Creed' band t-shirt is just a piece of cloth.:D
It`s not the piece of cloth.........it`s what it represents.

[<3mekthx]

I think it your opinion will depend on where you live. If you're from the north, 9 times out of 9 you will think it's racist. If you're from the south, then you might have a different opinion. (maybe not)

I guess it's really in the eyes of the beholder

[Jim H]

The swastika was brought up, which I find an interesting topic. It's history is sort of similar to the pentagram, in some ways. The swastika used to be a symbol of life and other things. It has been used as a symbol for things since far before the Nazis existed..

http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

My high school was old enough that it had a swastika in the floor in the front entrance of the school. It had been there since before the Nazi's rose to power, symbolic of the indians that used to be in Michigan before whites killed them all/forced them out. For a long time it was under a rug, until one day someone noticed it again and there was a bit of a stir. Some argued it should be removed, but it wasn't and a plaque was put in its place instead.

This also reminds me of what some people have said about Fung Sheng, the title character in Master of the Flying Guillotine. They say you can tell he's the villain immediately, because he is wearing a giant swastika. This is far from the truth - he's wearing it as a disguise so people think he is a simple buddhist or what not.

The nazis sort of tilted and reversed the symbol, and it became theirs. Sad, really.

Anyway, I can see why some would want the flag around, as a symbol of heritage and such.. I don't consider it INHERENTLY racist, per se... But I must admit I'm a little wary of people who have them on their trucks. All the ones I have seen thus far were obviously rednecks.

[Elgyn]

Very interesting, Jim.:cool:

[pig farmer]

You guys have to be joking if you think that the Union wasn't as racist as the Confederacy.

Please.

Also, read up, the civil war had nearly nothing to do with slavery. It was states rights vs central government.

[Jim H]

Originally posted by pig farmer
You guys have to be joking if you think that the Union wasn't as racist as the Confederacy.

Please.

Also, read up, the civil war had nearly nothing to do with slavery. It was states rights vs central government.

How exactly do you quantify racism? Blacks were less oppressed in the Union, as a whole. I think you can agree with that much. Only four of the Union states were slave states at the time of the Civil War.

[A.J. Hakari]

I didn't vote, since although I do see it as a racist symbol, I do see how it can have a bit more cultural relevance in the south. But when I see pickup trucks by the dozen with the Confederate flag waving, all I can think of it, "This is the NORTH, Gomer..."

[bob]

Of course no individual symbol or item is racist, but the connotations surrounding it are powerful, and the connotation around the Confederate Flag is extremely racist and offensive, in my opinion.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by bob
Of course no individual symbol or item is racist, but the connotations surrounding it are powerful, and the connotation around the Confederate Flag is extremely racist and offensive, in my opinion.

I'm in awe how perfect this statement is. Well said.

[Raymond Babbit]

I think the flag is kinda racist, but I think the majority of the people don't see it that way. Really, I think it's all about intent. If you don't mean it as a racist thing, but as a southern culture thing, that's not racist. The one time I really got creeped out by it was when I went up to a little city in Mich. called Hell, and there was some dude behind this store selling Confederate flags that said "The south will rise again". That just seemed really hostile and scary to me.

As far as the "States' rights" thing goes though, I know it didn't start this way originally, but did anyone notice how it seems "states' rights" has been turned into some kind of code by politicians that means "racism"?

[TheDeadWalk]

It's not racist, it's just as said above, people have turned it into a racist symbol.

It is not true that the civil war was a fight over slavery like we are taught in grade school. Slavery wasn't an issue in the war until the final year, when Lincoln used the emancipation proclamation to turn the slaves against their masters.

Any state NOT in the union that had slaves were hereby not recognized if not in the Union by January 1st of the following year. It was a last gasping tactic to get the slave states to rejoin the union.

Kentucky, Deleware, Maryland, and Mississippi got to keep their slaves legally after the Emancipation, because they stayed in the Union.

The war was over state's rights, tariffs, and the fact that the South actually was completely different and almost isolated from the North and the West.

The Flag was their individuality, and that is the symbolic nature of the flag. It has nothing to do with blacks and flags. Just because a few stupid fucks put it in the back of a pickup truck and think it means they hate blacks, is just as silly as the person who sees the flag and thinks it's a universal symbol for black hatred.

[free]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
It is not true that the civil war was a fight over slavery like we are taught in grade school. Slavery wasn't an issue in the war until the final year, when Lincoln used the emancipation proclamation to turn the slaves against their masters.


Well, Lincoln's election, to the South, they knew meant an end to slavery (in actuallity, Lincoln was going to let them have slavery).

So while slavery wasn't their main reason, it did have a part in it.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by free
Well, Lincoln's election, to the South, they knew meant an end to slavery (in actuallity, Lincoln was going to let them have slavery).

So while slavery wasn't their main reason, it did have a part in it.

Since the colonization of the Americas, the South and the North were on edge with each other for over a hundred years. Lincoln was just the boiling point where the South wanted to seceed from the Union. They were being affected by the North's tariffs and economy based around industry to the point that they felt ignored and isolated. Hell all of the railroads and the first national road in America all went from the East to the West.

My problem is people that see the civil war like this:

"We are the North. We want you, the South, to abolish slavery."

"Kiss my ass North."

"Then we shall fight, South."

"You win, North. We'll end slavery."

"That's coo South. Let's be friends again."


I mean shit, if people want to get technical like that, let's just say that the American revolution was over slavery too. Down with the stars and the stripes, let's just have a rainbow flag so all will be happy.