Cliff's opinions about America

[Lynn7]

I read this and I thought he made some interesting points:

Uncommon actor
Most recognize him as Cliff Clavin, the mailman on "Cheers," but Hollywood actor and director John Ratzenberger is keeping busy these days actually plugging America.
Every Tuesday night at 9 o'clock on the Travel Channel, "John Ratzenberger's Made in America" takes viewers into America's shops and factories, introducing otherwise unrecognized men and women who strive through hard work, skill and devotion to make this a better country.
Over the past two years, Mr. Ratzenberger has touted Americans who produce products like Craftsman tools, Steinway pianos, Harley-Davidson motorcycles, Barbasol Shaving Cream, John Deere, Brooks Brothers, Stetson hats, Swanson TV dinners, Spam, Gatorade, Ivory soap, Gibson guitars, Goodyear tires, Airstream trailers, Crayola crayons, the Louisville Slugger baseball bat, even the Wiffle ball.
Mr. Ratzenberger, who this columnist met with last week in Los Angeles, says "Made in America" is "closer to my heart than anything I have done professionally in 30 years," primarily because he's so concerned about America's future.
"[T]he America I grew up in hardly exists anymore," says the native of Bridgeport, Conn. "The America I remember from the 1950s and '60s was an America of ma-and-pa stores and a blue-collar middle class. There was a sense of community, and above all else there were community standards.
"But from what I can see all around me today, that America is fading fast, if it's not already gone," he says. "Like America, Bridgeport was all immigrants — Italians, Poles, Irish, Africans, Puerto Ricans, Portuguese. Yet there was no racial or ethnic tension, at least among the kids. We were bonded by the fact that our parents worked hard jobs.
"In school we said the Pledge of Allegiance and in summer marched in parades on streets decorated with American flags," says the actor, who appearing before one recent audience criticized this country's "silly educational emphasis on multiculturalism" that "only causes people to be hyper-aware of color instead of being colorblind."
"From what I can see, too many kids don't learn pride in their country anymore. You may not share my concern — but you should," he says. "The fact is that, in another generation, at least half of all native-born Americans won't have learned about patriotism even by osmosis."
The actor warns that "structures and organizations, even countries, don't survive forever on momentum."
"They need to be resupplied with energy, and that energy comes from asking not what your country can do for you, but from what you can do for your country."
As for Hollywood and its impact, he says: "I'm concerned about the insidious influence of the media's bad messages that undermine the lessons parents try to instill in their sons and daughters."
He speaks of a recent conversation he had with a high-ranking network executive, the son of a studio executive born and raised in Los Angeles, who turned down a series proposed by Mr. Ratzenberger that would center around life in a truck stop.
"I kid you not, this guy had never heard of truck stops," says the actor, whose father was a truck driver. "I should have educated him by pointing out that if New York and Los Angeles were to suddenly disappear one day, all the other American cities would quickly learn to adjust ... .
"I have a lot more in common with my gardener that I do with guys like him," he concludes. "It appalls me that the people who decide what Americans will be watching on the tube have never been to the United States. Not the real United States.
"To them, the real United States is just flyover country. The pollution they produce, market, sell, and show to billions around the world is at its core contemptuous of the country that gave them better lives than nearly 100 percent of everybody who's ever lived. And they pass that contempt along for everyone to see."

[Tuukka]

"[T]he America I grew up in hardly exists anymore," says the native of Bridgeport, Conn. "The America I remember from the 1950s and '60s was an America of ma-and-pa stores and a blue-collar middle class. There was a sense of community, and above all else there were community standards. -

- says the actor, who appearing before one recent audience criticized this country's "silly educational emphasis on multiculturalism" that "only causes people to be hyper-aware of color instead of being colorblind."

RE:

So... Did he prefer how the racial issues were tackled in the 50's, then? America might have been a better place for a white, middle class hetero male like him in the 50's. But what about others? I don't think his idea of "community" includes anyone who is different from him.

"Like America, Bridgeport was all immigrants — Italians, Poles, Irish, Africans, Puerto Ricans, Portuguese. Yet there was no racial or ethnic tension, at least among the kids. We were bonded by the fact that our parents worked hard jobs."

RE:

No racial tension in the 50's, huh? Or does he mean that because the tension existed only among adults, it doesn't matter? Huh?

I don't like this guy

I don't like him because he is spreading ignorant and false nostalgy. The rosy, imaginary 50's world he is supporting never existed in the first place, so essentially the guy is selling a lie.

I don't appreciate liars who preach "stick your head in the sand" idealogy.

The 50's america didn't like anyone who was different, which resulted in a sense of (false) community. Are you gay? Go to prison. Are you a socialist? Go to prison. Are you black? Well, don't expect to have a similar change of succeeding as white folks do, you are black and therefore don't deserve it. Are you a woman? Well, don't try to build your own career, honey, you should stay at kitchen.

Totalitarian goverment models who opress their people tend to have a stronger sense of community, yes. But what is the prize for that? The prize is that anyone who threatens the false sense of community will be opressed.

The nazi Germany had an extremely strong sense of patriotism and community. But they sacrificed a lot to achieve that.

Also, I don't believe in accusing media of making people more immoral. The morality of media is a direct reflection of the morality of society. Media's intention is to sell. Nothing else matters. So the consumers decide what media creates. If media is immoral, then it simply means that the consumers want it to be immoral.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Yeah really, he's such a liar.

How the hell do you know what his view of nostalgia is? When he was growing up, there wasn't tension between him and his peers, why exactly is that so hard to believe? And moreso, what's better?

You made a blanket assertion that all Americans felt as though anyone different is wrong. Sorry, that's not the case but just assume that, it's easier to make an argument, I guess.

[Tuukka]

"How the hell do you know what his view of nostalgia is?"

RE:

I read the interview.

" When he was growing up, there wasn't tension between him and his peers, why exactly is that so hard to believe?

RE:

What are you talking about? I never denied this.

"And moreso, what's better?

RE:

What's better as compared to what?

I have a friend who is black. There is no tension between me and him because of our race. Does it make it OK for me to state that racial issues between whites and blacks don't exist? Or that racism doesn't exist in general?

The thing is that Cliff is making broad, inaccurate statements about USA in general because of his own limited childhood experiences 50 years ago.

I'm missing your point. Are you really saying that black people were not opressed in the 50's more than they are now?

"You made a blanket assertion that all Americans felt as though anyone different is wrong.

RE:

No, I didn't.

I said that "The 50's america didn't like anyone who was different". This means that the society supported a worldview where people who didn't fit the mold were opressed and kept in check - At least if compared to the modern day america. However, there were plenty of people in the 50's america, who didn't like this line of thinking, and that's why things changed and people gained more personal freedom of choice later on.

I assume you are aware of how civil rights have improved on USA since the 50's to the late 90's, so I don't think we have much of an argument about that.

I don't know the full contex of his quotes, so I might be misinterpreting them, but he criticized USA's "silly educational emphasis on multiculturalism" that "only causes people to be hyper-aware of color instead of being colorblind." In the context of this article it comes off as if people in the 50's were "colorblind". I would imagine you agreeing that this most certainly was NOT the case.

It might be that the journalist in question has taken the quotes out of context and as a result makes Cliff sound dumber than he is. This is possible, I don't know.

BTW, calling him a "liar" was probably too harsh from me. But being very biasedly nostalgic about something always annoys me. Bringing up the 50's as some kind of ideal age and at the same ignoring all the problems the time had.

...An interesting thought: It might well be possible that the lesser patriotism of modern american people is a direct result of one single thing: They lack a common enemy. Since USSR came down and cold war was finally over, there was no real threat for USA anymore. Nothing brings people together better than a powerful enemy. Islam and terrorists are not filling this void, since 50% of americans don't see them as real current threats to your country.

[<3mekthx]

Islam and terrorists are not filling this void, since 50% of americans don't see them as real current threats to your country.

Not sure where you get 50% of Americans don't see Islamic terroists as a threat to America.

[Lynn7]

I grew up in the 60s and although I remember a lot of racial unrest during a few years I personally never saw any animosity toward Blacks. There was a Black family in our neighborhood (only one where now there are so many!) and everyone accepted them into the community-during the 60s!! There have always been racists and there always will be but I know what Cliffy is saying. I think the racial discrimination was much worse in the South but when you think about how short a time ago in our history that slavery existed it is to be expected that we would have to go through a mini-revolt to speed up changes for equality. It worked-our country is very integrated and I have not seen any discrimination or heard any derogatory racial remarks for so many years.

Now is the time to start to unify as Americans and to stop separating inot multicultural groups. Our country is the only one that has no real natives (even the Native Americans came here from somewhere else).We are made up of people from all different countries but we need to redevelop a sense of patriotic community to make ourselves strong, IMO.A common term I used to hear a lot was the "melting pot" but I don't hear about it anymore.

[jeo4]

Racial unrest was horrible in the entire U.S. in the 60's. I know it wasn't the case in every town or neighborhood, but race riots, marches, police clashes, etc. were at their peak in the 60's. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were very vocal. For John Ratzenberger to have lives such an ideal life in an immigrant town with "no racial tension" just seems a bit far fetched.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by <3mekthx
Not sure where you get 50% of Americans don't see Islamic terroists as a threat to America.

RE:

Well, I admit that it's not in any sense an accurate statistic. I took it because roughly 50% of americans don't seem to think that the "war on terror" is either effective or even necessary, at least not in the way it is handled now.

The thing is that USSR was a very real, enourmous threat. They could have bombed USA to stone age. This is something that terrorists are not able to do. Terrorists are not a threat to USA as a country. They are never going to conquer USA, or destroy it. But USSR had the capacity to do that, at least in theory.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Now is the time to start to unify as Americans and to stop separating inot multicultural groups. Our country is the only one that has no real natives (even the Native Americans came here from somewhere else).We are made up of people from all different countries but we need to redevelop a sense of patriotic community to make ourselves strong, IMO.A common term I used to hear a lot was the "melting pot" but I don't hear about it anymore.

RE:

In principle I support the idea of people working together instead of working against each other. Yes, a sense of community is a great thing. But I just don't think that this ideal USA ever existed... It probably was strongest during big crisis like WW1, WW2 and occasionally during the cold war.

The thing is, how many black people do you hear saying that USA was not divided in the 50's? How many native americans? Yes, they are natives and not immigrants. By saying they are not natives is like saying that *nobody* is a native. Each person in the world has had his ancestors coming from some other place.

The people who remember this perfect community always seem to be white, heterosexual and either rich or middle class. Majority of them are male.

I don't think this is a concidence.

[The Postmaster General]

Tuuka, this fellow grew up in the Northeast US, which has always been savagely progressive compared to the rest of The States.

Most of the problems of racial divide took place down in the South, which, as someone who lived in the South most their life, can tell you that it's still very much this way. I grew up with kids being bused to other school districts to ensure that there were x number of minorites to y number of whites in every school district.

Now, saying that I've never lived in the Northeast, I can't particularly say that I understand what race relations are like, but I certainly see that most racial atrocities did not take place in the North. In fact, this area still remains strongly liberal and diverse as it always has. But overall, I think you're painting a blanket picture of America, while complaing that this guy is doing the same thing.

You are saying that only the white here are powerful, and I strongly disagree. Oprah Winfrey is, I believe the wealthiest woman. You also have to consider that our sports are nearly dominated by minorites, and there is also a strong, strong connection between Hollywood and blacks, growing ever stronger with people like Quicy Jones, Russel Simmons, and legions of actors. While it is true that in buisiness, you might not see many minorites, it is not correct to say that only white are among the wealthiest. As far as power, that remains to be seen. When you have politicians rallying to stop the black rap acts such as 2 Live Crew, Ice T, and NWA in the early 90s, and failing miserably, you have to consider who is really holding the power.

Personally, I would cite someone for being optimistic, and speaking nicely of where they came from.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Tuuka, this fellow grew up in the Northeast US, which has always been savagely progressive compared to the rest of The States.

Most of the problems of racial divide took place down in the South, which, as someone who lived in the South most their life, can tell you that it's still very much this way. I grew up with kids being bused to other school districts to ensure that there were x number of minorites to y number of whites in every school district.

Now, saying that I've never lived in the Northeast, I can't particularly say that I understand what race relations are like, but I certainly see that most racial atrocities did not take place in the North. In fact, this area still remains strongly liberal and diverse as it always has. But overall, I think you're painting a blanket picture of America, while complaing that this guy is doing the same thing.

You are saying that only the white here are powerful, and I strongly disagree. Oprah Winfrey is, I believe the wealthiest woman. You also have to consider that our sports are nearly dominated by minorites, and there is also a strong, strong connection between Hollywood and blacks, growing ever stronger with people like Quicy Jones, Russel Simmons, and legions of actors. While it is true that in buisiness, you might not see many minorites, it is not correct to say that only white are among the wealthiest. As far as power, that remains to be seen. When you have politicians rallying to stop the black rap acts such as 2 Live Crew, Ice T, and NWA in the early 90s, and failing miserably, you have to consider who is really holding the power.

Personally, I would cite someone for being optimistic, and speaking nicely of where they came from.

RE:

You misunderstood me.

I'm saying that in the 50's things were much worse, but nowadays the racial problems are much, much smaller. I definitely agree that blacks can get to the top now, something they weren't capable of doing to same degree in the 50's. I would imagine that this was true of the more liberal northern states as well - They have also become less intolerant and racist over the decades.

In fact I haven't even commented on the racial issues in modern day USA, except for saying that things have moved to a much better direction since the 50's.

Cliff's point was that the issue of racism was lesser in the 50's, and he used his own small childhood environment as an example. I stated that he can't use such a small sample to make a generalization about the entire USA, and I still think so.

Things were bad back then, but nowadays things are going pretty good. There are still problems, sure, but there has also been great progression. The things you stated, Bubba, prove that.

[The Postmaster General]

Ah, I see what you saying. It's like he's trying to cover up the way things really are by painting a flowery picture that probably only pertains to him.





Originally posted by Tuukka
The things you stated, Bubba, prove that.


Prove what?

Integrated busing? That the North has traditionally been less racially divided than The South? Many, many black athletes? Russel Simmons and Oprah Winfrey own large companies? Blacks are gaining clout in the entertainment industry? Politicans have lost many battles against rappers? There are more whites than blacks in the corportate industries?

I stated a lot of things and they are all common knowledge. There should be no reason for me to have to find evidence of any of it. Frankly, I'm surprised you would ask for proof of anything I've stated.

[Tuukka]

"Prove what?

Integrated busing? That the North has traditionally been less racially divided than The South? Many, many black athletes? Russel Simmons and Oprah Winfrey own large companies? Blacks are gaining clout in the entertainment industry? Politicans have lost many battles against rappers? There are more whites than blacks in the corportate industries?

I stated a lot of things and they are all common knowledge. There should be no reason for me to have to find evidence of any of it. Frankly, I'm surprised you would ask for proof of anything I've stated."

RE:

Not sure what you mean??? I said that the examples you pointed out prove that things have progressed to better direction since the 50's. There are more options for black people nowadays, and it's easier for them to become succesful in society. I would imagine you agreeing with me.

I didn't ask you to prove anything, because the examples you stated are something I see as facts.

[The Postmaster General]

LMAO!

Sorry, that read differently.... I'm much less surprised now.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Tuukka
RE:

In principle I support the idea of people working together instead of working against each other. Yes, a sense of community is a great thing. But I just don't think that this ideal USA ever existed... It probably was strongest during big crisis like WW1, WW2 and occasionally during the cold war.

The thing is, how many black people do you hear saying that USA was not divided in the 50's? How many native americans? Yes, they are natives and not immigrants. By saying they are not natives is like saying that *nobody* is a native. Each person in the world has had his ancestors coming from some other place.

The people who remember this perfect community always seem to be white, heterosexual and either rich or middle class. Majority of them are male.

I don't think this is a concidence.

Humans by nature are divisive and each group who has come to the US has faced some level of discrimination. I am half Irish and my mother said that when she was little her aunts used to tell her if someone asked her what she was she should say "I'm Irish and I'm proud of it!" It's funny cause that is the same thing Black people used to say in the 60's. "I'm Black and I'm proud- say it loud!" The Black people had it harder because they were actually kidnapped and enslaved and because of their skin color they could not blend in like the Irish might have been more able to do.

Our country is like no other. It takes time and even sometimes some mini-revolts to get things changed but we eventually get things right.

The white, heterosexual rich or middle class idea is interesting becasue within the white community there is no real cohesion. It is common to say what are you? and the response is I'm Italian, I'm Irish, I'm Peurto Rican, I'm Greek, I'm Polish, I'm English-----even though these people have been here for generations. They are all white but they do not identify themselves that way. Being white is only talked about when race comes up.

Every one here has the opportunity to become rich or middle class. The heterosexual thing is also something people don't talk about much. People might say "I think that guy is gay" but they never treat people who are gay in a bad way. I've never seen it. Of course there are always bad people who will mistreat others for any given reason and maybe kids in school can be cruel but they can be cruel if you wear a shirt you don't like.

The race situation has really improved in the US (to the point of almost equality) and it is some of the Black leaders who keep trying to stir up trouble for their own power base that keeps the negativity going.

I think cliff is right to say we should stop looking at our differences and focus instead on our identity as a unique country.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Humans by nature are divisive and each group who has come to the US has faced some level of discrimination. I am half Irish and my mother said that when she was little her aunts used to tell her if someone asked her what she was she should say "I'm Irish and I'm proud of it!" It's funny cause that is the same thing Black people used to say in the 60's. "I'm Black and I'm proud- say it loud!" The Black people had it harder because they were actually kidnapped and enslaved and because of their skin color they could not blend in like the Irish might have been more able to do.

Our country is like no other. It takes time and even sometimes some mini-revolts to get things changed but we eventually get things right.

The white, heterosexual rich or middle class idea is interesting becasue within the white community there is no real cohesion. It is common to say what are you? and the response is I'm Italian, I'm Irish, I'm Peurto Rican, I'm Greek, I'm Polish, I'm English-----even though these people have been here for generations. They are all white but they do not identify themselves that way. Being white is only talked about when race comes up.

Every one here has the opportunity to become rich or middle class. The heterosexual thing is also something people don't talk about much. People might say "I think that guy is gay" but they never treat people who are gay in a bad way. I've never seen it. Of course there are always bad people who will mistreat others for any given reason and maybe kids in school can be cruel but they can be cruel if you wear a shirt you don't like.

The race situation has really improved in the US (to the point of almost equality) and it is some of the Black leaders who keep trying to stir up trouble for their own power base that keeps the negativity going.

I think cliff is right to say we should stop looking at our differences and focus instead on our identity as a unique country.

RE:

I generally agree with what you are saying here. However, the "white, wealthy, hetero, male" argument is based on the *fact* that they've traditionally have had more options and possibilities in life. Sure, they also have their own pecking order, but that's besides the point. And I'm talking about 50's here, not about modern day america (We had the same attitudes here in Finland in the 50's as well).

I agree with your last statement. The thing that irked me was the comparison Cliff draw to 50's.

[Jim H]

There was a Black family in our neighborhood (only one where now there are so many!) and everyone accepted them into the community-during the 60s!!

Most communities in the 50s and 60s.. In the few cases where black people COULD move into suburban neighborhoods, property values immediately fell, and then white people moved out, further decreasing values. Stuff like that is why it has been so much easier for whites to build equity, which we're still feeling the effects of.