Whats better Rap vs. Rock

[michael_fan_1]

i hear people always saying rap is better and others always saying rock is better state your oppinions on the topic

i prefer ROCK YEAHHH!!!!!!

[Sigur509]

Dispite Jay Z, and Outkast....I dont listen to rap music.

So yeah....Rock.

[blankpage]

Rock, baby!

By far...

[one_crow_sorrow]

Rock

[The Heart Collector]

I dont really see any criteria by which I can compare these 2.

[my_name_is_neo]

Both, personally.

In both of these genres, like any other genre, there's some that's shit, and some that's good.

[bluesbrother965]

Rock by a mile, if I were to rank all the genres in music that I know of, rap would be very close to the end. The only rap I like is a couple songs by Outkast. Other than that, I can't think of any of it that appeals to me.

[B1rd_Po0p]

I have to agree w/ Heart Collector on this one (I know - shocking.) These two genres are SO FAR APART from each other - how can you possibly compare them? IMO - rap doesn't even qualify as music most of the time. Just some guy talking really fast to a beat. OR - they sample stuff that someone else already thought up. How talented is that??

[The Heart Collector]

... rap IS music, dude. It's not some 'guy talking fast' or 'sampling stuff somebody already thought of'.

[The Postmaster General]

Give me a break. The last thing this board needs is another "rock and rap are comparable forms of music" thread.

If it's a good song, I could give a rat's ass what genre it's from. The last time I checked, good song writers and musicians weren't discrimative, and aren't limited by any genre.

Picking a genre isn't like picking a sexual preference people. DECIDING a musical preference makes as much sense as deciding you're going to wipe your ass only using the left hand from here on out.

But just out of curiousity, why is it that ONLY people who prefer rock over rap start these threads? Honestly, I can't figure out what you people are trying to prove.

[Sigur509]

YAHTZEE!

[The Postmaster General]

I just re-read my earlier post after having taken some medication, and realized that I should probably clarify what I meant:

I like 'em both about the same.

[chilli pepper]

Wait, hold on, I was unaware this was an actual question, Rock all the way. Although I dont mind old rap, run dmc and stuff like that, today's rap is absolutely horrid, utter fucking trash, the genre really needs to reform or disappear in my mind.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by chilli pepper
Wait, hold on, I was unaware this was an actual question, Rock all the way. Although I dont mind old rap, run dmc and stuff like that, today's rap is absolutely horrid, utter fucking trash, the genre really needs to reform or disappear in my mind.

today's rock is absolutely horrid too.


Because, of course, when you say today's rap, you are referring to commercial rap, and since you're making the assumption that because commercial rap is bad then today's rap is bad, then I will feel free to assume that today's rock is an abortion because Nickelback exists.

[TheDeadWalk]

I'm a classic rock kinda guy.

[chilli pepper]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
today's rock is absolutely horrid too.


Because, of course, when you say today's rap, you are referring to commercial rap, and since you're making the assumption that because commercial rap is bad then today's rap is bad, then I will feel free to assume that today's rock is an abortion because Nickelback exists.

Oh abosolutley, rock is no fucking staple of musical health nowadays either. Thing of it is, every now and then a fairly passable rock band comes along,I havent seen a rap artist resemble passable in my life time. But hell, this thread is pointless, the rock people are going to argue that rock is better then rap and the rap people will argue rap is better then rock, one person isnt going to convince someone on the other side that their point is the correct one. This is just one opinon versus another, no one is going to come out with an end all be all statement as to why one is better then the other. I'm more of a metal fan anyhow, but since metal is a branch on the tree of rock essentially, I suppose my alligence has been delcaired. I dont Necessarily mean today's rap sucks, you're right, I basically was referring to commercial rap. But do you really expected a life long rock/metal fan to be familiar with todays underground, lesser known sides of rap? Same way I wouldnt expect a guy walking down the street with a 50 cent t-shirt on to know what i'm talking about when I say the new SYL cd kicks ass, which basically means....I'm not really informed enough to make such a statement. Fine, you got me.

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
... rap IS music, dude. It's not some 'guy talking fast' or 'sampling stuff somebody already thought of'.

First off - I'm NOT a 'dude'. Secondly music - in my opinion - is something generated by instruments. Most rap 'music' I've heard is some guy talking shit while some other guy makes noise.

[The Postmaster General]

Po0p -

Have you ever checked out any rap songs that were recommended to you? If so, what were those songs? All the schmoes have very diverse tastes, but everyone seems to have good tastes (too me at least). Maybe there are some things you could check out, or links to some mP3s people could throw up. (haha, not like vomit) and you could check them out.

At one time I didn't think rap was musical at all, then I heard some things that had very amazing production, where instruments were involved, and the turntables were used as, there is no way I could describe it, but as instruments. Sure, rap music often uses the turntables to produce just the donkey like sound effect, but there are tons (but still a minority) of DJ's who actually are somehow able to produce tones and melodies using the grooves on a piece of vinyl. This one guy named Mix Master Mike uses a wah-peddle to produce some of the funkiest stuff I've heard on Beastie Boy's Hello Nasty album. Also, check their release Check Your Head for some, while not amazing skillful, still old-school punk, guitar riffing and drumming. Even some of the more unexpected acts like Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre incorperate live instruments to great effect. Sure, there is a lot of it that is sample driven, but let me mind you that even The Beatles have sampled, though in their own way. Yes we all have opinions, but "Number 9" could have used a good beat in mine.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
First off - I'm NOT a 'dude'. Secondly music - in my opinion - is something generated by instruments. Most rap 'music' I've heard is some guy talking shit while some other guy makes noise.

So if I take a rap song and play it with instruments, it magically becomes music?

So if I only sing, it's not music? (the voice isn't an instrument, and if you want to argue for it being one, then surely rapping, which is a style of singing, qualifies as music)

So Buck65, who as far as I can recall, has acoustic guitar on his songs, is music, but Outkast is not?

So popular music like Justin Timberlake isn't music because the sounds behind it are done by the same producers that do the beats in rap? (If you want to argue that Justin sings, I'll counterargue that rapping is a style of singing)

So Beck has songs that aren't music because he's kinda rapping AND the background sounds are produced instead of played?

What about rap which doesn't sample as much, but instead uses more electronic composition? Is it not music? And if it's not, then is techno not music?

This argument makes no sense whatsoever.

[BorderEevilIII]

I am NOT taking any sides here cuz I am a schmoe that is pretty much into ALL GENRES....

Doesn't mean I like ALL of em but if the song lyricwise grabs then HEY!
As for Rap I lean MORE towards the ol skool...

[B1rd_Po0p]

Meh, Heart Collector - you'll argue with anyone...

- When I think of 'rap', I think of the "gansta" stuff, the hard core kind where there isn't music just someone talking to a beat. Call me uneducated but what is the difference between R & B and Rap anyway? Isn't Rap more of a style than a genre?

I dont really see any criteria by which I can compare these 2.

Your original comment is what I agreed with. Perhaps I should have clarified myself more to keep you from coming after me.

I do like some songs where people 'rap' but it's not the same thing that you guys are thinking of I'm sure. There's a song by Mae Moore called "Bohemia". Another song by Third Eye Blind called "I Want You".

Either way my PREFERENCE is for rock music.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
Call me uneducated but what is the difference between R & B and Rap anyway?

You know, I don't mean to sound like a colossal ass who throws racist accusations at everyone, but their only similarity is that black people sing it.

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
You know, I don't mean to sound like a colossal ass who throws racist accusations at everyone, but their only similarity is that black people sing it.

:eek:

... You mean to tell me that there are NO white rappers/ R & B singers??? I cannot believe you just posted that.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
You know, I don't mean to sound like a colossal ass who throws racist accusations at everyone, but their only similarity is that black people sing it.

I disagree with that. R & B seems to be more where it's about the flow of the music, and it's traditionally not an uptempo beat. It is also welcome to more female performers, as opposed to rap.

Rap tends to be more uptempo, and about a variety of topics, whereas aplenty of R & B takes aim at love, a loved one, a loved one who is missing, etc.

Often times, the two can collaborate and create one that mixes into both genres.

A nice example would be "Crossroads" by Bone Thugs and Harmony.

I would consider Nelly's remix of whatever he did to the tune of Back in black to be Rap, but that mix he did with Tim McGraw to be R & B.

A lot of it is style, prose, form, and presentation.

[KcMsterpce]

I usually enjoy oranges (rock), but every once in a while I'll take a bite out of a nice apple, too.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
:eek:

... You mean to tell me that there are NO white rappers/ R & B singers??? I cannot believe you just posted that.

I edited half the sentence because it sounded too, shall we say, insulting to, shall we say, you.

What the original sentence meant was that the only way I can see someone thinking there's no difference between rap and r&b is if they think all black music is the same.

[TheDeadWalk]

I don't think it's a black music issue nearly as much as it's just not having taste for the particular genre(s).

Having no respect or taste for the music and(or) genres should not correlate with "all black music".

There is much more to black music than these two genres.

[The Postmaster General]

What are you talking about?

R & B and rap are totally uncomparable. One is singing, and one is, well, rapping. Patti Labelle, Usher, Alicia Keys, R. Kelly... Maybe you are confused because sometimes R & B artists appear on rap songs and vice versa. It's about as confusing as when Aerosmith jammed with Run DMC though. I highly doubt anyone was like, "What the hell's going on with those guys from Aerosmith? Are they rap now?"

The whole point about all of this is that you can't really create boundries. Listen to things like Mos Def's new album, which, whether you like it or not - he sings, and arguably very well. The album hits jazz, hard rock, straight rap, the blues, and the idea is that there isn't really a point in just limiting yourself.

And rapping takes a bit more skill than just talking to a beat. Try educating yourself, and doing it yourself -- rap along to something like Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" -- It's not easy, and you'd be a fool to say it was without trying to get through an entire verse without realizing that having a beat, and hitting those beats is more than meets the ear.

[jeo4]

I prefer older rock music myself. And I don't see how the two genre's could even be compared. I tend to agree on some levels with Bubba on this one. If it's good, I'll listen. If not, there's too much good music to listen to what isn't. Taste is subjective, so I'll leave it at that.

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
When I think of 'rap', I think of the "gansta" stuff, the hard core kind where there isn't music just someone talking to a beat. Call me uneducated but what is the difference between R & B and Rap anyway? Isn't Rap more of a style than a genre?


DING DING DING!

I hate foreign films. I hate them. You can't compare foreign films with American films. When I think of foreign films, I think of people sitting around talking, you know, like that one movie....that Godard one. I don't remember the name of it. Anyway, that's all foreign movies are. Just people talking. So how can you call it a movie? Isn't it more of a just...people sitting around...talking?

Obviously, if when you think of rap, you only think of 'gangsta' rap, the issue lies in your own lack of knowledge when it comes to the art-form. Show me one rock band doing something great and I can show you two rappers/producers, albeit, not "popular" in a conventional sense, that are doing something even greater. You can't argue the merits of something you don't know a lot about. There are untalented rappers just as there are untalented rock musicans...

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=scott+stapp/v=2/SID=e/TID=I034_83/l=IVI/SIG=125h8ieer/EXP=1113921845/*-http%3A//img.interia.pl/rozrywka/nimg/roz202003.jpg

My advice would be to look into the genre first.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
IMO - rap doesn't even qualify as music most of the time. Just some guy talking really fast to a beat. OR - they sample stuff that someone else already thought up. How talented is that??

People are gonna kick my ass for this, but I gotta agree with this, emphasis on B1rd's "most of the time" in the first sentence. There's a couple of rap songs I like, and maybe one or two rappers who I feel bring a certain rythm or flow to what they do, but I don't think you can qualify what the huge majority of rappers do as "music". It's a beat (very often a rip off, called a "sample" to make it look innovative) over which guys talk really fast and/or really loud.

And to anyone who'll snap at me and tell me to "look into it" or "get to know it better", I spend the whole day listening to it, because I got an older brother and a younger brother who both listen to nothing but that, and I'm 19, so most of my friends listen to that -- on their iPods, on their radio, in their cars. And I feel absolutely no shame to say that, except for a couple of Nas songs, a couple of Eminem songs, some Tupac and a bit of the older stuff, I absolutely do not get rap, and absolutely do not get how anyone can call it "music". Tupac'd be the milestone to me. I haven't heard anyone since him elevate rap to the higher levels of great music on a consistent basis -- anyone. Not one person. And it's been what, ten to fifteen years?

And to those who'll call me a condescending white middle-class asshole, even though I probably deserve the title, it's not the case here. I'm a huge R&B fan, jazz, blues. I love Ray Charles music, Marvin Gaye, Barry White, huge Alicia Keys fan, John Coltrane, Usher, you name it. But to me, great music is defined by a great voice and/or great instrumentals, and 99% of rap has neither.

[electriclite]

Oh God why did this come up again?!! It always turns into a "I hate rap" fest and then the others who actually know more styles other then gangsta and the bling bling era busting out with the laundry list of highly talented rap artists......




And here we go:

The Fugees
K-OS
Wyclef Jean
Tribe Called Quest
Common
Mos Def
KRS-One
Tupac Shakur
Black Eyed Peas (before they brought in the chick)
De La Soul
Kanye West
Uh, EMINEM
Outkast

and it just goes on and on

check ya self before ya wreck ya self

I'm out.

[The Heart Collector]

I am, indeed, going to kick your ass.

There's a couple of rap songs I like, and maybe one or two rappers who I feel bring a certain rythm or flow to what they do, but I don't think you can qualify what the huge majority of rappers do as "music". It's a beat (very often a rip off, called a "sample" to make it look innovative) over which guys talk really fast and/or really loud.


See... this is just... ugggh. Just.... uggggh. Bleggggh. Utterly senseless. The reason an argument like this is utterly senseless is because, if you start logically applying it to everything you listen to, you're going to yield a bunch of nonsensical results.

First of all, let's look at this one from every single angle. Because I guarantee you, every single angle you mentioned is utterly false.

It's a beat (very often a rip off, called a "sample" to make it look innovative)

There are an infinite amount of things wrong with this statement, but let's go with the first.

It's a beat

It's a beat. Ok. So? Saying rap is a beat doesn't really mean a hell of a lot. Yes, it is a beat. So? Justin Timberlake has beats. Britney Spears has beats. Modern pop music is based on beats. Not to mention electronica, which spans a billion subgenres. To say rap is a beat isn't really saying anything.

(very often a rip off

Let's go further. 'Very often a rip off'. Why is it 'a rip off'? Rap uses samples. Rap doesn't steal other people's music. Rap uses very small samples to create something utterly different. It's not like they literally took another song and rapped over it. They took a riff, or a melody from a song, turned it into a beat by adding other samples on top of it, synced the whole thing up, and made a song of it. Very often a rip off? Sure, if the only rap you've ever listened to is 'Come With Me' by Puff Daddy.

Take, for instance, this song by Madvillain:

http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/madvillain.wav

Do you think any of the samples used in that song sounded remotely like that in their original form? Do you think making that very creative and awesome sounding mix of sound is being a ripoff?

And calling it a 'rip off' is not only harsh, but misses the point. Hyeroglyphics has a song about taxis. Guess what they sample? The theme song from Taxi. That is BRILLIANT.

called a "sample" to make it look innovative)

I'm sorry, do you have any actual evidence, any theory, or any support to the claim that 'ripping off' is called sampling to 'make it look innovative', or are you simply making completely nonsensical stuff up because you dislike rap? Look, I don't like being hostile, but this is seriously nonsensical. There's absolutely no basis for this claim. None. There. Is. None. The only reason you're saying sampling is called like that to 'make it look innovative' is because you hate rap for misguided reasons. There's no actual rational foundation for it.

Not to mention, sampling has been going on for well over a decade, so I hardly doubt anyone calls it sampling to be innovative. Rather, people call it sampling because that's what it is: the use of a sample to create a beat. They don't call it ripping off because it is not ripping off, and only irrational hatred of rap would fuel such a claim.

over which guys talk really fast and/or really loud.

False in every single count. First of all, most rappers do not rap really fast. In fact, I can hardly think of any rappers that rap really fast other than Twista. Most rappers don't rap really loud either. 50 Cent don't scream.

You will notice, however, that the real reason why this sentence is completely wrong has to do with my use of verbs. Rappers don't talk really fast or loud. Rappers rap. Rapping is not talking really fast and/or loud. It's just not. To say that all rappers do is talk really fast is completely absurd. No offense, but it reminds me of people who think they can show rap sucks by doing a rhyme in which they use the words rap, suck, and niggers. Rapping isn't talking fast or loud. When people discuss Jay-Z and Eminem, they don't say, 'man, that Eminem sure is a good rapper. Because he's fast'. NO. Rappers are good because they can make excellent rhymes, and because they have a varied flow. Excellent rhymes. Excellent rhymes. Let's get that through. Rapping isn't talking fast. Rapping is being able to rhyme words in such a way that there is a good flow, and being able to deliver this convincingly. If rapping was talking really fast, Twista would be the more famous than he is.

Rapping is not talking. It's not. People don't talk like rappers. People don't talk in rhymes. People don't go breathless saying a bunch of stuff. Saying 'rapping is talking' is saying that whatever isn't strictly singing is talking. If you want to say 'rapping is just talking', surely I can say 'singing is just a bunch of people inflexing weirdly'.

Now, I've addressed all of that, which is pretty bad. But that's not what's truly bad about your post. What's truly bad is this:

absolutely do not get how anyone can call it "music"

I have a better idea. How about instead, you show us why rap isn't music. Because so far, you haven't. Or if you had, it was he most crushing failure since Vietnam.

You've said, so far, that rap is a 'beat' which is a 'ripoff' in which a guy 'talks fast over it'. According to you, this means rap isn't music. This is insane.

Let's view this logically, in sequence. The song 'I'll Be Missing You' by Puff Daddy samples The Police's 'Every Breath You Take'. When The Police used this melody, it was music. What Puff Daddy did was he took a clip from this music and looped it. Essentially, what Puff Daddy has achieved is hardly different than what he would have achieved if he got a band to play the actual melody instead of using a sample. So, if what Puff Daddy has in his song is the same melody as what The Police had, then it logically follows that both of them are music. Because The Police's composition doesn't magically dissolve into non-musicness if it's sampled. Now, I ask you: If during the mixing of the song "Every Breath You Take", Sting's voice was added afterwards, then this means that at some point, the song didn't have Sting's voice over it. I think we can safely say that this instrumental song is still music. However, what I am to assume from your comment is that once Sean Combs adds his lyrics, that are sung in a different style than Sting's, the song magically dissolves into non-music land.

Surely you understand that the scenario you are proposing makes no sense. It makes no sense, James. There is no rational reason why rap doesn't fit the definition of music.

For the sake of the argument, though, let's accept your proposition: rap is not music because 1) it's just a guy talking really fast and/or really loud, 2) its a beat, 3) its a ripoff.

Now let's take this to its logical conclusions:

- William Shatner's cover of 'Common People' is not a song because, unlike Jarvis Cocker, William Shatner just talks through the lyrics. The background is music, but since Shatner is talking, this is only half-music, a mutant bastard offspring of music.

- Justin Timberlake's songs aren't real, pure music because The Neptures probably used a few beats on them, and sometimes his singing isn't really singing, but just talking in a really low volume and in a whispery, sexual manner.

- The song 'Are You Gonna Be My Girl' by Australian band Jet is not music because it's melody (or 'beat') is a rip off of 'Lust For Life'.

- The song 'Cigarettes & Alcohol' is a half-song mutant hybrid because it is sampled, or as we really call it, ripped off from the song "Bang A Gong' by T-Rex.

- Whenever a rap artist performs in concert and uses instruments instead of a sample, the background music magically becomes true music. In the moments when the rapper is in silence, the song actually morphs into real music, since he's not 'talking over it' and the background is "real, yo".

- The song 'Hey Bobby' by Non-Prophets isn't music, however this part right here (http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/nonprophets.wav ) when Sage sings can be considered a half-music mutant hybrid because his inflection is kinda singish.

- When you listen to a remix, you are in fact not listening to music, but something else. After all, the remix is basically a 'ripoff' trying to sound innovative by adding some electronic stuff.

- The background music to most modern pop is not actually music. What you're listening to is men and women singing over some weird thing we'll call krepbuzklar.

- The song 'Where It's At' by Beck... pfft. Who am I kidding? The lrepbuzklar 'Where It's At' doesn't qualify as a song because Beck's inflection sounds more like rapping and because the music is *gasp* produced.

- Contrary to popular belief, the song 'Devil Went Down To Georgia' isn't really a song because no one is singing in it; they are just talking in rhymes and really fast.

- Buck65 as far as I can recall, has some instruments. If he were to throw in a few notes in each of this songs, he'd have an album, instead of the techno-acoustic spoken word records he has (which is rap's new name according to Logan's nomenclature system).

I haven't heard anyone since him elevate rap to the higher levels of great music on a consistent basis -- anyone. Not one person. And it's been what, ten to fifteen years?

You've said that you've already looked into rap, but let's be honest: all you've mentioned as 'good' is Nas, Eminem, and Jay-Z. Hardly things that would have cost you any effort to look into. You haven't heard anyone since him elevate rap to the higher levels of great music? How about De La Soul, who are still going and still strong, or MF Doom, or Madlib's production work, or Sage Francis, or experimental groups like cLOUDDEAD or the Anticon collective? I'm not even well versed on rap, so surely there's dozens more.

And even then, SO?

No one's elevated grunge to the higher levels of music in a long time. No one's elevated nu-metal to the higher levels of music ever. So what? These suddenly aren't music?

You are absolutely wrong in ways that will make the fabric of the universe tear apart if you keep going.

[TheDeadWalk]

If you don't have the taste for the genre, you are going to think it's complete shit.

If you love the genre, you will in turn, appreciate it more and understand its mechanics and inner levels.

I'm similar with a lot of punk, and especially underground shitball punk. I don't want to understand its message, or the mechanics of it, because I think a lot of punk and underground music fucking sucks.

You can preach all day about how great it is, but If I don't like it, my ears will hear what they want to hear, because I'm uninterested in the genre. I will still think genre X sucks.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector

You are absolutely wrong in ways that will make the fabric of the universe tear apart if you keep going.

Then I am sad to tell you the fabric of the universe is pretty much fucked. ;)

I've got two brothers and a dozen friends who love rap. I've heard all the arguments before, including yours, almost to the word. And the bottom line stays: I don't get it. I'm opening my ears and I'm listening, but there's rarely anything I can call "innovative", or "musical", or "emotional". I'm opening my ears and I'm listening, but I rarely, if ever, hear instrumentals that I think have anything new to them, and I rarely, if ever, hear a voice that I think I could call a "singing voice" while keeping a straight face.

I perfectly get the fact that it pisses a lot of people off, and that you feel robbed of what you feel rap has earned and earns every day. But that isn't, unfortunately, what's going to change my mind. Neither are arguments that claim no music is music along my lines, because those are easy, just spinning the words back with the right examples (and speaking of examples, dude, using William Shatner as your first example? William fuckin' Shatner? ;)).

My pops always used to tell me that when doing something, I should see who was ready to do it with me, and if no one was, then do it alone. And the truth is, no matter what you aaaalll might say, and no matter the efforts I put into listening to this stuff and trying to get an appreciation for it, I just don't get it, and I just don't get it being called music. It's something, and it has the potential to be music, but most of the rap I hear (and I hear lots) is just plain talking to a boom-boom-boom.

You can keep on coming at me. All of you. That'll be my opinion, and that'll stay my opinion until a hundred rappers come alone that actually change my mind. Which, I'm afraid, isn't gonna happen for a long, long, looong while. ;)

[James Logan]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk

You can preach all day about how great it is, but If I don't like it, my ears will hear what they want to hear, because I'm uninterested in the genre. I will still think genre X sucks.

Bingo. DeadWalk's probably got it in that -- I don't get it. I wouldn't use the word "uninterested", because I really get outta my way to check it out, but I, and by I it could be my mind, my brain, my ears, my inner cathartic self or whatever you want to call it, just doesn't get it.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm impaired and just can't hear the musicality of it. But that's how it is, and that's how it'll stay -- ain't music to me. Ain't good music, anyway. ;)

[The Heart Collector]

See, that's the problem here. There's a difference between not liking someone and saying that because you don't like something, it's not music. Which is just absurd. Your comments are like saying 'heavy metal isn't music because it's loud'. You can have all the opinion in the world, but until you explain to me how the act of sampling physically transforms what was previously music into non-music, there's no argument. You use the word music not as a description of something, but as some sort of magic standard by which whatever you don't like is deemed unworthy. It's similar to saying 'Elephant fucking blew. I don't see how anyone can call it a movie since its got no story'.

[my_name_is_neo]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
If you don't have the taste for the genre, you are going to think it's complete shit.

If you love the genre, you will in turn, appreciate it more and understand its mechanics and inner levels.


You can preach all day about how great it is, but If I don't like it, my ears will hear what they want to hear, because I'm uninterested in the genre. I will still think genre X sucks.

You can hate a genre all you want, fine, that's your opinion - but saying it's "not music" is just wrong. It's music you don't like, but that doesn't mean it's not music. I'm pretty sure that's the point THC was trying to get across.

Edit: beaten by THC himself.

[chilli pepper]

Originally posted by James Logan
Bingo. DeadWalk's probably got it in that -- I don't get it. I wouldn't use the word "uninterested", because I really get outta my way to check it out, but I, and by I it could be my mind, my brain, my ears, my inner cathartic self or whatever you want to call it, just doesn't get it.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm impaired and just can't hear the musicality of it. But that's how it is, and that's how it'll stay -- ain't music to me. Ain't good music, anyway. ;)

Good to see someone making sense.

[James Logan]

Well, first of all, guys? Little less caffein, or little more Valium. ;) (I kid, I kid)

Second of all, here's a comparison I think will work better for you.

Abstract paintings.

A lot of people agree that abstract paintings are art, some of it being the work of genius, and that "White Square on White Background" is a masterpiece. I, for one, believe abstract paintings are just lines and crosses and zigzags, or sometimes nothing at all, and personally would not call it art. And I know a thousand people, including some of you, who'll look at a piece of abstract art, and go -- "I'm sorry, but that's not art".

That's how rap music works with me. Everybody today loves it, and I'm sure there's a reason to that, but I personally feel the same way about it than I do about abstract art -- "I'm sorry, but that's not music."

I can definitely understand that being revolting. I know that if someone told me Frank Sinatra wasn't music, I'd want to kick his ass, and you guys have every right to try and kick mine. But the same way as I don't get abstract "art" being art, I don't get rap "music" being music.

And unfortunately, no amount of arguing is going to change that. The only thing that'll change it is having three, four, five rappers come along, and prove to me on a consistent basis that it's music -- and by "prove to me", I mean what I say, that is "get me convinced".

And yes, ELEPHANT fucking blew. ;)

[beastieben21]

mu·sic: The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!?

The Heart Collector, as per usual, hit the nail on the head. If you're ignorant enough to still argue this point, then you're clearly a lost cause. MF Doom, The Streets, Dizzee Rascal, Beastie Boys, De La Soul, Ghostface, Mos Def, Aesop Rock, The Roots, Roots Manuva. Nobody is asking you to like it. Nobody is saying that you must find these bands and artists enjoyable. However, to deny that it takes talent, or to go as far as to not call it music, is absurd. If you can go as far as to dismiss it as requiring no talent than I can go as far as to dismiss as having no musical knowledge/insight.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by beastieben21
mu·sic: The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.


Well, first of all -- "evocative", "melody", and "harmony" are the last words I'd associate with most rap music. And second of all...

Originally posted by beastieben21
If you're ignorant enough to still argue this point, then you're clearly a lost cause.

...this would be a good point if anyone was arguing the fact that I am ignorant, when, in fact, that's about the one thing everyone, including me, agrees on.

I've said it before, I'll say it again -- I absolutely am not changing my mind unless I get a reeeeaaal good reason to. And getting ganged up on and having to face bold letters and outrage unfortunately ain't gonna cut it -- I'm used to pissing people off. :)

[B1rd_Po0p]

C'mon James, lets go listen to some classic rock. These people are WAY TOO FUCKING serious...

[countchocula]

Rap takes lyrical talent. I don't find it to be vocally or musically interesting, but I wouldn't be able to write a good rap song (and yes, I've tried). I can sing and I can growl, but I can't rap. I have a feeling that James wouldn't be able to rap in a million years, although we share a distaste for the genre itself. I'm a metalhead born and raised (on the playground is where I spent most of my days :D ), but I respect certain aspects of rap. Nevertheless, I don't care for it.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by countchocula
I have a feeling that James wouldn't be able to rap in a million years, although we share a distaste for the genre itself.

Well, I could try, but all you'd get is a skinny white boy talking fast, shaking his arms, and trying to pull off words like "ho", "my nigger", "shake yo ass", "all y'all bitches and pimps". Which is not only a stereotype, but also very, very bad for your ears. And eyes. And overall health.

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
C'mon James, lets go listen to some classic rock. These people are WAY TOO FUCKING serious...

I'm right behind you, gorgeous. :)

[Frank the Tank]

Originally posted by James Logan
Well, I could try, but all you'd get is a skinny white boy talking fast, shaking his arms, and trying to pull off words like "ho", "my nigger", "shake yo ass", "all y'all bitches and pimps". Which is not only a stereotype, but also very, very bad for your ears. And eyes. And overall health.



I'm right behind you, gorgeous. :)

Everyone of those groups beastieben named rarely use those words. So I guess those groups break the rap stereotype.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by James Logan
Well, first of all -- "evocative", "melody", and "harmony" are the last words I'd associate with most rap music. And second of all...

So?

Grindcore isn't 'evocative', 'melodic', or 'harmonious', at least not to most. It most certainly is music. Just as rap is music. There is no fighting about it. If you don't think rap is music, I have no doubt in my mind that you would have thought The Beatles weren't music, just a bunch of hippies in long hair.

Second:

http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/kanye.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/kinggeedorah.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/outkast.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/sac.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/sagefrancis.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/slug.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/ticktock.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/talib.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/aesop.wav
http://www.yossarko.com/wdfaa/files/deadbent.wav

I fail to see how any of those aren't melodic, harmonious, or evocative.

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
C'mon James, lets go listen to some classic rock. These people are WAY TOO FUCKING serious...

Excellent way to have a discussion. Say something stupid, have people become outraged and raise counter-points, don't address these discussion points, make a juvenile quip, and then leave. Very good, very good. Aintitcool.com is calling.

And the thing is, nobody is getting mad because you think that rock is better than rap. That's fine. I probably agree with you. The thing that people are getting upset about is that you're using no concrete details or insight to back up an argument. If you're going to claim something to be true, the LEAST you can do is come to the discussion with some facts to back you up. Nobody, thus far, has really done that. I could go into a Kurosawa thread and say that he's a one-bit hack, but if I've only seen "Seven Samurai" and "Yojimbo", my argument isn't very substantial. You know? Same thing applies here. Until you listen to what's considered "good" rap, you can't pass a verdict on the entire genre. If you've done that and still hate it, then great. At least you know what you're arguing about.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by Frank the Tank
Everyone of those groups beastieben named rarely use those words. So I guess those groups break the rap stereotype.

Well, that would be because that part of the post was a joke, referring to the stereotype of the skinny white middle-class dude trying to act ghetto. Which, apparently, you didn't get. I'll have to check, because if you're not the only one to not get it, then I might have to take it out of my act before I go up to the comedy club on Thursday.

Originally posted by beastieben21
I could go into a Kurosawa thread and say that he's a one-bit hack, but if I've only seen "Seven Samurai" and "Yojimbo", my argument isn't very substantial.

Well, first of all, if you think SEVEN SAMURAI and YOJIMBO suck, then you got another argument coming. ;)

Originally posted by beastieben21
Until you listen to what's considered "good" rap, you can't pass a verdict on the entire genre. If you've done that and still hate it, then great. At least you know what you're arguing about.

Dude, I've been repeating from the start that I get out of my way to check out rap music. Anything that anyone will tell me is good I'll listen to once or twice. Because the truth is, the world around me seems to be loving rap, and I don't get it, so I feel like I might be missing something.

I've done that, and I still hate it. Maybe you've just read over that part of my posts. Maybe you've just ignored it because it puts you in a tougher position to make an argument that'll actually convince me. ;) But the fact is, I do. Name anyone that's not under-underground and I've probably heard something he/she/they did. And if I haven't, I'm willing to check it out, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

And Heart Collector, on those Yossarko.com tracks -- I'm sorry, but...nah. :) The "Kanye" one, to me, feels like it's the "singing" (which I call "talking") from one song, put with the beat of another, because they don't seem to fit together, to me.

The second one might actually have something, and actually sounds like a song (I know, it's a cheap dig, but that's me ;)), but the guy singing sounds like any dude you can find at the karaoke lounge. Maybe he's got some talent for writing or whatever, but if you ask me, singing ain't his strong feat.

The Outkast song is actually one of the few I like, actually got it on my MP3 player -- those guys'd be one of the exceptions I was talking about earlier. I actually like Outkast because they bring something different, a bit of electric, a bit of crunk, sometimes almost a pop-like feel, and they rap with that. That I can dig, because they're actually trying something and going somewhere. The other thing is that Big Boi and Andre can make a jackass like me feel that they're not just talking, but almost singing (I know, but whaddya want, to me, it ain't singing), and that's not the case of 99% of rappers out there. They just plain talk.
Again, to me, these guys are a teeny-tiny exception -- and I'm not even talking all their songs. But if you're trying to convince me, you're going in the right direction with that.

The "Sac" one keeps jumping when I open it, so maybe I'm missing something, but I still don't get it. Some dude talking fast over some nice piano play that doesn't feel like it belongs there. This track actually made me feel like my dad was on one end of the room listening to a piano concerto while my older brother was on the other end of the room listening to rap and both musics mixed. In other words, what the fuck? ;)

The "Sage Francis" one...feels like I've heard it before, only sung by one of my favorite drunk homeless Paris subway performers, Big Bob. He's the black guy who's on the subway line that went outta my apartment when I used to live in the city every morning, and he'd sing stuff like this to get a few dimes. The reason I bring him up is because he'd always come drunk, even at 7 o'clock, with his little music box playing some kind of sax beat like the one on this track, and then he'd do the exact same thing as the guy on this track -- start slowly talking, then speed up, and then just make a lot of noise. And I say "noise", because I mean "noise". :) And is it just me, or does the background music sound like elevator music, and the track just bring up an image of a big, Djimon Honsou-like dude breaking into a noisy rap in the elevator because it got stuck and he's got nothing better to do?

The next one, to me -- again. Dudes talking fast and a sample I feel like I've heard a thousand times before.

The "Tick Tock" one...what the hell? Fun, cute concept, making it slow, and playing on the slow aspect, but if you ask me, it doesn't work. It is evocative, though -- evocative of the last time I was drunk and everything around me seemed to slow down to an intelligble, unharmonious crawl.

And the last three, not convincing me. Just plain talking. The "Talib" one almost feels like it's at least talking-in-rythm, but in fact it feels more like the guy just takes pauses now and then to take his breath. ;)

It's gonna be tough to convince me, guys, because I've heard a lot of it, and I still do. Probably a lot of European stuff even you guys haven't heard either. And I just don't get it. You can try, but there's two things I'll say:

a) Don't get your hopes up. Back to the abstract art comparison -- I've had people show me dozens and dozens of abstract paintings, and even though there's one or two that had me go "hmm, might have something there", I still maintain it's not art. Better be prepared to get the same result with this, because I'm a stubborn, narrow-minded sonuvabitch.

b) Just don't make the mistake of assuming that because we disagree I'm ignorant (and this is more directed to beastieben21, who's posted three times, basically to tell us we don't know what we're talking about, whereas Heart Collector is arguing and actually giving me one nice run for my money -- I'd actually say you're winning so far, THC, but you haven't convinced me). I know the "music", I listen to the "music", I look into the "music", and I just don't get it. I don't get putting it in the same category and on the same level as other music. I'm sure THC has a point with his Beatles comparison in saying that "if you don't think rap is music, I have no doubt in my mind that you would have thought The Beatles weren't music, just a bunch of hippies in long hair", because that could very well be it -- I'm a last century, old school boy, and this is just something new that I'm just not getting. I am definitely not contesting the fact that that's probably the truth, and have said so myself since the start of this argument. If that's what you call ignorance, sure. I got absolutely no problem with admitting that. This stuff is too new and different, and I just don't get it.

The truth is, I know this whole argument is around the use of the word "music", and me not including rap in there. And I know it's gotta be maddening for you guys. And I know it doesn't make much sense, in the sense that, by admitting I consider some of it (Tupac, some Outkast, some Nas, some Eminem) as music, then by extension, I admit the genre as music, the rap I don't like then being just bad music. That's the huge flaw in my whole argumentation -- if I think some of rap is music, then rap is music, and good music when it's done right. And I'm really surprised none of you has brought that up, because there's nothing I can answer to that except "well, then, yes". :)

But you know what? I know my position is 100% undefendable, but it's still my position. And it's not like it's hurting anyone. And until the end of my days, or a huge revolution in rap, or the day where I'll actually click on and get it, whenever I hear most rap on the radio, I'll say "I'm sorry, but that's not music" -- the same way as I'll go to an abstract art museum and say "I'm sorry, but that's not art".

Tough luck. :)

[James Logan]

Originally posted by beastieben21
Excellent way to have a discussion. Say something stupid, have people become outraged and raise counter-points, don't address these discussion points, make a juvenile quip, and then leave. Very good, very good. Aintitcool.com is calling.


And dude -- I hate to be a pain in the ass (actually I don't, I love it), but chill out. All B1rd did is slip in a laidback comment because you guys were getting very, very serious and offended. She's just trying to cool things down a little bit, same way chili and TheDeadWalk did, and electriclite, who saw the argument coming from miles away.

Snapping at people like that ain't getting us anywhere. It makes B1rd reluctant to even want to reply, because no one wants to waste time arguing with someone whose only arguments are "you don't know what you're talking about", "are you fucking kidding me?", and calling other people's opinions "stupid". It kills the conversation because it just gets everybody worked up against one another, and it turns this into something personal. And it makes you look overwhelmed, because it gives the impression you can't think of anything smarter and more constructive to say.

Now we don't want that, do we? ;)

Let's just chill. Keep bashing us and arguing with us, I got no problem with that, and I'm sure B1rd isn't asking everyone to blindly agree with us either. But let's do it in a civilized, friendly way like we all know how to do, because if we're just gonna bicker and yell, then we might as well just walk away, because we can all do that with our respective families and/or wives and/or in-laws and/or neighbours.

[Scorpio24]

Well I may as well at my little tidbit.

I used to love rap when I was younger. Now I'm very bored by it. In the days of Tupac it was all I ever listened to. However the rock v's rap argument would have been alot more debatable a decade ago as there were both great rappers and Rock bands.

Rap does use a hell of alot more samples now than it did in the ole days, or prehaps it just feels that way. I also hate dance music. This is of course music but I don't like calling anything that can be made by taking a classic song and remixing on a p.c. Music.

I'm not denying the talent needed to rap. In fact it's not something that can be performed without brilliant talent and alot of hard work. However I still think that it's more of an achievment to write and perform your music with instruments not including the Voice.

Maybe that's not the argument here but I still feel that a great Rock Band is more impressive than a great Rapper.

Like I said i'm not against rap i used to love it and follow it insistently but it has gone stale and boring in my eyes anyway

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by James Logan
Dude, I've been repeating from the start that I get out of my way to check out rap music. Anything that anyone will tell me is good I'll listen to once or twice. Because the truth is, the world around me seems to be loving rap, and I don't get it, so I feel like I might be missing something.

I've done that, and I still hate it. Maybe you've just read over that part of my posts. Maybe you've just ignored it because it puts you in a tougher position to make an argument that'll actually convince me. ;) But the fact is, I do. Name anyone that's not under-underground and I've probably heard something he/she/they did. And if I haven't, I'm willing to check it out, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.


Hate to bring down the ego, but it wasn't directed at you buddy. None of my comments thus far have been. I think it's one thing to argue and back it up (as you have done, just to clarify) but others haven't. They say things without giving reasons and then act like someone ELSE has the problem for getting upset about it. Again, not directed at you, rather at b1rd. That's where I have the problem. If you're going to go into a thread and make claims, just please give some evidence as to why you feel this way and then when people start having the discussion, stay with it and fight your points. I'm not using nazi scare tactics here, she said some rather ridiculous things and never gave a.) concrete reasons or examples and b.) a reply that wasn't tongue in cheek.

It happens to be a particular genre I have an affinity towards. I'll defend it. You've stated your stance, you don't enjoy it most of the time, and I was never attacking you. You've backed up your game. We may disagree, but the beauty of it is I know WHY you disagree. That's all I'm asking. I'd expect people to be mad if I went into a forum for something they're particularly fond of (Tarantino forums come to mind) and gave zero evidence as to why I hated him. You see? Not directed at you, buddy.
Snapping at people like that ain't getting us anywhere. It makes B1rd reluctant to even want to reply, because no one wants to waste time arguing with someone whose only arguments are "you don't know what you're talking about", "are you fucking kidding me?", and calling other people's opinions "stupid". It kills the conversation because it just gets everybody worked up against one another, and it turns this into something personal. And it makes you look overwhelmed, because it gives the impression you can't think of anything smarter and more constructive to say.

And also, I've offered a PLETHORA of arguments. I've never attacked anyone who actually came with something to say, nor have I been namecalling. I haven't been singling people out. So please, don't put words in my mouth, especially since I've been championing having a civil, back-and-forth argument from the start. Anyway, this thread has run its course. I still think I choose Rock, even though I'm still not sure why they're being compared.

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by beastieben21
Excellent way to have a discussion. Say something stupid, have people become outraged and raise counter-points, don't address these discussion points, make a juvenile quip, and then leave. Very good, very good. Aintitcool.com is calling.



Oh yeah. Sarcasm is just as mature. I voiced my opinion and got beat up for that. I stated that I may be uneducated and instead of being offered a crash course, I got beat up for that. I stated WHAT I THOUGHT OF when I heard the term 'rap' and instead of simply pointing out the different types of rap - I got beat up for THAT. I am open-minded enough to check out the music that Heart Collector posted but if I'm just going to get harrassed for my ignorance - WHICH I AM MATURE ENOUGH TO ACKNOWLEDGE - then forget it. Yes, I'll exit this thread with a lighthearted quip because folks are getting too rabid over an initial post that I believe was meant to be fun.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by beastieben21
Hate to bring down the ego, but it wasn't directed at you buddy.

Well, my ego would be brought down, but it has a great instinct for self-preservation. Now it thinks you didn't direct those comments at me because you know I'd kick your ass. ;) (I'm kidding, it's my ego, whaddya want. Cocky sonuvabitch it is)

Originally posted by beastieben21
I haven't been singling people out.

Well...that part's arguable. All B1rd did was voice her honest opinion, and then, let's be honest, she played along -- she admitted she didn't know the genre well, she asked questions, and the only answer she got is to get clobbered.

To which she just repeated her opinion, and stated, and there are her words and her caps -- "anyway, my PREFERENCE goes to rock music".

The only reaction to that was someone insinuating she didn't see the difference between rap and R'n'b not because she didn't listen to that music as much as other people, but because to her, black music is black music, it's all the same -- which, when you know B1rd, is about the most off you can be, and when you know R'n'b and rap doesn't make any sense, because we got Whiteys and Latinos doing their thing in those two genres too, and black music is much, much more than just R'n'b and rap.

So TheDeadWalk and Bubba explain the differences they see between the two genres. We almost get civilized. But before B1rd even has the time to come back and reply, you quote her post with a nice, huge, friendly "DING DING DING!", and basically telling her to go get some information before giving her opinion. In itself, not exactly offensive per se, but all I'm saying is try and consider all the crap people had already flung at her before then, just because she was guilty of voicing an opinion almost no one where agrees with.

Now, still before she even has the time to come back and actually say something, you go and post another reply dubbing her "ignorant", potentially "a lost cause", and calling her opinion "absurd", and asking her in big, bold, black letters if she "IS FUCKING KIDDING YOU?".

So B1rd comes back, and let's face it, at this point all the crap she's been hearing (well, reading, but you know what I mean) must be coming out of her pretty ears. But she still takes the high road, just makes a light-hearted remark reminding that she just prefers rock and we all might be getting a little too serious. And the answer she gets to that is a reply by you calling her "juvenile" and her opinion "stupid", and treat her, let's be fair and honest, in a slightly condescending and agressive way.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, or that it happened because of you, or it happened because of her, or bla-bla-bla, or blee-blee-blee. I'm just saying, I'm sure we all understand that you might feel insulted and a little offended that we contest rap music being "music" because you have an affinity towards rap, and especially if you feel we're not backing our opinions up.

We get that. All I'm saying is try to understand B1rd, who, just because she stated an opinion that's different from the majority's and then admitted she didn't know the genre very well, got consecutively pushed around, treated like an idiot, treated like a ten-year old kid, and even almost being tagged as having racist inclinations. And when she answered to all that not by fighting and bickering but with a fun comment and a wink, what she got was more being pushed around and being treated like an idiot. If I was her, I'd have gotten pissed a long time ago, and so would've you.

All I'm saying is try and understand that, that's all, because B1rd's a real good girl, and if you look up her first few posts before people started harrassing and attacking her, they were as constructive as can be -- they had questions, opinions, and she was really trying to have a conversation here. And I'm not just saying that because she's hot.

Originally posted by beastieben21
Anyway, this thread has run its course.

Yeah, that looks like the only thing everyone'll agree on. I do have a question, though. Regarding this...

Originally posted by Scorpio24

Rap does use a hell of alot more samples now than it did in the ole days.

...is this true? This is something I'm actually curious about. Because it does feel that way to me too, but I haven't taken anything in chronological order, so other than generally knowing the Tupac era was before the Fiddy era in "mainstream" rap, I don't know exactly how the evolution's gone, and that would be interesting to discuss since, these days, the rap tracks I hear on the radio or on TV feel, 99% of the time, like they're using a sample that's already been used a thousand times before. Which, in a lot of older rap songs was the case too in my opinion, but like I stated before, rap today feels un-innovative to me, and even though I don't get it, I get even less than a music genre so many people brand as new, fresh, and soon-to-be-undeniably-the-most-popular would sound so rehashed.

And on a sidenote...

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
Oh yeah. Sarcasm is just as mature. I voiced my opinion and got beat up for that. I stated that I may be uneducated and instead of being offered a crash course, I got beat up for that. I stated WHAT I THOUGHT OF when I heard the term 'rap' and instead of simply pointing out the different types of rap - I got beat up for THAT. I am open-minded enough to check out the music that Heart Collector posted but if I'm just going to get harrassed for my ignorance - WHICH I AM MATURE ENOUGH TO ACKNOWLEDGE - then forget it. Yes, I'll exit this thread with a lighthearted quip because folks are getting too rabid over an initial post that I believe was meant to be fun.

...am I the only one to find a woman who takes a stand sexy as all heck? :)

*purrs*

[The Heart Collector]

James, I'm still waiting for you to give me a proper explanation as to why you hold the completely absurd dichotomy that you're either singing or talking, or the belief that rapping is just talking. I posted a bunch of clips of rap songs, and your replies were essentially that you didn't like them. Fine. I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why you not liking it or coming up with some unfunny parisian hobo comparison means they are not music.


Seriously. if you keep insisting rapping is talking, I'll keep insisting that singing is just inflexing strangely, and that no rock with vocals is music, just spoken poetry.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
This is of course music but I don't like calling anything that can be made by taking a classic song and remixing on a p.c. Music.

See, that's the problem here, and that's the thing people like James fail to understand. Music is not directly related to the talent and effort required to make it. When most people say something is not music, what they mean is 'i think this is so easy and silly to make that i can't put it on the same standard as this bitchin' prog rock band'. Well tough luck, though. It's music.

[B1rd_Po0p]

"The Oxford English Dictionary defines "rap" as "a style of popular music (developed by New York Blacks in the 1970s) in which words ( improvised) are [u]spoken rhythmically and often in rhyming sentences over an instrumental backing" ("Rap"). Elsewhere, in the online version of the Encyclopedia Britannica, rap is defined as "the competitive use of rhyming lines spoken over an ever-more-challenging rhythmic base"

So I guess we're not the only ones who thinks rap is 'talking' because I don't see the word 'sing', 'sang', or sung' anywhere in that definition.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why you not liking it or coming up with some unfunny parisian hobo comparison means they are not music.

Still a little offended, are we? ;)

First of all, to answer the question about why I think singing and talking are different, I'll just say this -- go out in the street. Are people talking? Yes. Aret they singing? No.

Ah-ha, so there IS a difference!

Here's a couple of answers to your question about my expressed opinion that rap isn't music. I'm sorry that you've been "still waiting for them" for so long, despite them being quotes from previous posts. Next time I'll make sure to right in bigger, pink letters to catch your eye more easily -- my bad.

Originally posted by James Logan
Bingo. DeadWalk's probably got it in that -- I don't get it. I wouldn't use the word "uninterested", because I really get outta my way to check it out, but I, and by I it could be my mind, my brain, my ears, my inner cathartic self or whatever you want to call it, just doesn't get it.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I'm impaired and just can't hear the musicality of it. But that's how it is, and that's how it'll stay -- ain't music to me. Ain't good music, anyway. ;)

Originally posted by James Logan

Abstract paintings.

A lot of people agree that abstract paintings are art, some of it being the work of genius, and that "White Square on White Background" is a masterpiece. I, for one, believe abstract paintings are just lines and crosses and zigzags, or sometimes nothing at all, and personally would not call it art. And I know a thousand people, including some of you, who'll look at a piece of abstract art, and go -- "I'm sorry, but that's not art".

That's how rap music works with me. Everybody today loves it, and I'm sure there's a reason to that, but I personally feel the same way about it than I do about abstract art -- "I'm sorry, but that's not music."

I can definitely understand that being revolting. But the same way as I don't get abstract "art" being art, I don't get rap "music" being music.


Originally posted by James Logan

I'm sure THC has a point with his Beatles comparison in saying that "if you don't think rap is music, I have no doubt in my mind that you would have thought The Beatles weren't music, just a bunch of hippies in long hair", because that could very well be it -- I'm a last century, old school boy, and this is just something new that I'm just not getting. I am definitely not contesting the fact that that's probably the truth, and have said so myself since the start of this argument.

The truth is, I know this whole argument is around the use of the word "music", and me not including rap in there. And I know it's gotta be maddening for you guys.

And I know it doesn't make much sense, in the sense that, by admitting I consider some of it (Tupac, some Outkast, some Nas, some Eminem) as music, then by extension, I admit the genre as music, the rap I don't like then being just bad music. That's the huge flaw in my whole argumentation -- if I think some of rap is music, then rap is music, and good music when it's done right. And I'm really surprised none of you has brought that up, because there's nothing I can answer to that except "well, then, yes". :)


That's as detailed an explanation as I can give ya, man. I know this whole argument is revolving around the use of the word "music", and the fact that, let's face it, rappers and rap fans have to get pissed off at hearing people say all the time that the music they like isn't music. I completely understand that. And I'm not saying rapping is easy, because it ain't, and I wouldn't be able to do it. But punching a hole through a concrete wall isn't easy either, and I don't call it music, do I? Because you say in your last post that I fail to understand that music can be music no matter the amount of talent or effort put in there, and I never said that. I'm sure rapping calls for a lot of effort -- and a certain talent for talking fast and loud ;) (again, cheap blow, but they're so fun). Never contested that.

The problem, here, is that you're not taking this is my opinion, despite me stating over and over again that I was probably the one missing something here, but hey, I'm missing it despite all my efforts, whatcha gonna do? What you're waiting for is what you call "a proper explanation", meaning an explanation that'll satisfy you, and as you know no explanation will satisfy you, you feel like I'm giving no explanation at all. But if we go by those standards, then I should be asking for a "proper" explanation from you, too -- and this conversation'd never end.

The simple truth is that everyone has their own way to define what's music and what's not, what's art and what's not, and so on and so forth. I know you'll contest that and tell me that, no, music is music and that's it, but if that were the case, then I wouldn't think what I'm thinking, and no one else would agree with me.

The fun part is that I know what you're going for -- trying to get me to say that rap is music, as long as the definition of music used fits, and in that sense win the argument. But I'm afraid this'll be one of those arguments that ends in a frustrating "agree-to-disagree", because the truth is and the truth will stay that I unfortunately do not get rap and do not get how it qualifies as music, and that'll stay the case for a long, long while. (And there's the big, bold pink lettering to make sure you don't keep on waiting. See how caring I am? ;)). Is that narrow minded? Probably. Does that put me in a tiny minority? Sure. Does that mean I'm missing something and thus must have less musical intelligence or be less in-touch musically? I wouldn't bet on the contrary. But does it hurt anyone, pride excepted? No. Is it a fact that's my opinion? Yeah. Is it gonna change? Nope, not any time soon. I got an open mind and I'm looking -- I'm even tracking down some stuff of that Mix Master Mike Bubba mentioned. Who knows. I'm game to check anything out, but it'll have to be mighty darn good to convince me (or cross-over somewhat in other genres, as you've probably gotten).

And seriously -- going on like this isn't going to change my mind. :) To be perfectly honest, I just love how much you guys are fighting to change my mind, because it's obvious it gets under your skin that someone might think so little of a genre that you either like or feel at least deserves, by its simple nature, the title of "music". But please, please, no need to get so intense and agressive for it, like it's the most important thing in the world, because I'm afraid that'll just make me want to see how far this'll go. I take a guilty pleasure in seeing how serious and annoyed people can get when I voice an opinion that's different than theirs, unfortunately, so I'll just keep going.

All I'm saying is this. I look at this...

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/art/20th/painting/malevich1.jpg

...and to me, that's not art. But most art connaisseurs still say Malevich is a genius, and one of the great artists of the past century. I'm not talking about effort, here, mind, I'm talking about how you can call art something that just involves a white, slightly blue square on a slightly whiter background. Maybe there's more to this painting, but all I PERSONALLY see of it is a square on a white background.

Now, I'm sure you can understand that -- even if you disagree with me, I'm sure you can understand how some people don't consider that as art. And if you let go of the whole pride and indignation thing, and just transpose that to rap music, you'll get what I mean when I say "I'm sorry, but that's not music to me". I'm not contesting the world's right to saying it's music, and for all I know, the world's right. But I don't get it, and to me, it's not. Live with it -- there're more important things in the world.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
So I guess we're not the only ones who thinks rap is 'talking' because I don't see the word 'sing', 'sang', or sung' anywhere in that definition.

Yeah, but how much you wanna bet that THC is just gonna come out saying that singing, too, is just "speaking rythmically"? ;)

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by James Logan
We get that. All I'm saying is try to understand B1rd, who, just because she stated an opinion that's different from the majority's and then admitted she didn't know the genre very well, got consecutively pushed around, treated like an idiot, treated like a ten-year old kid, and even almost being tagged as having racist inclinations. And when she answered to all that not by fighting and bickering but with a fun comment and a wink, what she got was more being pushed around and being treated like an idiot. If I was her, I'd have gotten pissed a long time ago, and so would've you.


I agree. I apologize. It was out of line and I never was criticizing her opinion, but rather her reasons for having it. It was never substantiated. Before you say something isn't "music" I'd like for someone to have a knowledge of it. I know a dumb asian kid, but it sure doesn't mean all asians are dumb. That's all I've wanted.

Rap does use a hell of alot more samples now than it did in the ole days.
To bring out your other debated point James:
I disagree. Sampling laws that originated in the early 90s have made a lot of productions that before would have been acceptable (the most notable probably being "Paul's Botique" by the Beastie Boys, an album comprised entirely of samples) would now be impossible due to the logistics. I think a lot of artists have grown lazier, and after Sean Combs and Will Smith gained hits via the method, it's become more and more acceptable. In the old days, small parts of songs or certain instruments were sampled (kind of like Beck did on "E-Pro"). Now it seems that instead of trying to create and intricate beat, rappers just take old popular songs from the 60s and 70s, add a drum loop and speed it up and BAM, they've got a beat. It's laziness, in my opinion. Sometimes it works. I think Coolio's "Gangster's Paradise" is a great example of this. However, usually it ends up being a gimmick.

So yeah, a lot more artists sample ENTIRE songs, i think, because it's easy and they don't have to come up with a hook, it's all there for them. But in terms of sampling elements or specific instruments, open up an old hip-hop drawer and you'd be blown away by how many elements are cut and pasted.

[countchocula]

I just thought I'd chime in and say that rapping isn't singing. It's not talking either. It's rapping. Rapping is neither singing nor talking. "People on the street" aren't rhyming to an unorthodox beat. If they were, they would be rapping. Of course, the word "spoken" is used in the definition of rap, but that's only because defining it as "rapping" doesn't tell the average schmoe (ha!) what rapping is. That would be analogous to defining an orange as an orange. Well, that doesn't tell me anything about oranges!

Rapping doesn't necessitate vocal talent, but it does require good writing skills and a tight sense of rhythm. You don't need writing skills and a sense of rhythm to simply talk.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by beastieben21
Before you say something isn't "music" I'd like for someone to have a knowledge of it. I know a dumb asian kid, but it sure doesn't mean all asians are dumb. That's all I've wanted.


Don't sweat it. We all misunderstand each other all the time -- same way I did when I went right back at you despite you not even talking to me, which I personally apologize for too. :D

Originally posted by beastieben21
Sampling laws that originated in the early 90s have made a lot of productions that before would have been acceptable...

Fair enough. But (and I'll research this, just in case someone can answer the question before I find the answers myself), why did sampling laws get easier in the early 90s, when everybody seems to be putting the emphasis on people owning their music, their tracks, on avoiding rip-offs or "lazy" samples, as you've rightfully called them? I know there might be no reason at all, but I've found that usually, when a law changes like that at some point, there's someone or something or some group exercing the influence behind the decision. I'm wondering what prompted lawmen to figure sampler laws were to harsh and had to be more open -- whether it was a certain case, or a general feeling, you know.

I'll look into it right now.

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by James Logan
Don't sweat it. We all misunderstand each other all the time -- same way I did when I went right back at you despite you not even talking to me, which I personally apologize for too. :D



Fair enough. But (and I'll research this, just in case someone can answer the question before I find the answers myself), why did sampling laws get easier in the early 90s, when everybody seems to be putting the emphasis on people owning their music, their tracks, on avoiding rip-offs or "lazy" samples, as you've rightfully called them? I know there might be no reason at all, but I've found that usually, when a law changes like that at some point, there's someone or something or some group exercing the influence behind the decision. I'm wondering what prompted lawmen to figure sampler laws were to harsh and had to be more open -- whether it was a certain case, or a general feeling, you know.

I'll look into it right now.

Nah, it was the other way around. Artists weren't paying royalties when they'd sample something like...a Beatles song. That system wasn't fully set up yet. You can still sample now, you just have to pay to use it. Whereas, back in the 80s, you could pretty much pick and choose whatever you wanted. Paul Boutique would cost upwards of millions of dollars to make because the Beastie Boys/Dust Brothers were using elements from The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Sugarhill Gang, etc. etc. So yeah, they got more harsh with the sampling laws, not more open.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by countchocula
I just thought I'd chime in and say that rapping isn't singing. It's not talking either. It's rapping.

Rapping doesn't necessitate vocal talent, but it does require good writing skills and a tight sense of rhythm.

Ah, see, this, I can agree with. Ditto.

And I've been looking around on that sample thing, and found a site called downhillbattle.org, and a few articles on sampling laws, and it looks like hip-hop and rap artists are actually claiming sampling laws are too tight, and have lately been made tighter, in a move deliberately aimed at them (a little paranoid, perhaps, but who knows?). Here's an article taken from the AP in late 2004...

http://feed.proteinos.com/item/2220

Interesting. So how come it feels like there's still a shitload of borderline rip-off lazy sampling going on?

[James Logan]

Originally posted by beastieben21
Nah, it was the other way around. Artists weren't paying royalties when they'd sample something like...a Beatles song. That system wasn't fully set up yet. You can still sample now, you just have to pay to use it.

Ah, all right then, because that's what I've been finding researching this. Makes sense, then, going in the right direction.

[B1rd_Po0p]

Please keep something else in mind when it comes to this genre of music and someone such as myself. This music isn't directed towards my demographic (a white chick in her 30's) so there aren't very many opportunities for me to be exposed to it in all of it's various forms. Then you have the stereotypes that the media loves to push on us via movies, videos, commecials, etc: that perpetuate the view of rap as a 'gansta' thing. (If I were a black person I'd be offended that this is the prime example of how their society is presented.) So my opinion is formed on this very narrow margin.

I do like a lot of the 'old school' stuff that I grew up with (Run DMC and Beasties as prime examples) but the newer stuff today - that I have been exposed to - seems darker and particularly misogynistic. I find that to be very distasteful and a horrible thing to bombard impressionable young people with. (I'm not saying that all people who listen to that brand of rap music will start hating women and seeing them as property to be degraded and used: but you get the idea.) Now me - I see Outkast as being more of dance music and I really do dig them. Apparently I just needed to be reminded of how broad the genre has become.

As a rule I'm always open to experiencing new music: just ask anyone who's played the music tag game with me.

[countchocula]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
This music isn't directed towards my demographic (a white chick in her 30's)

You obviously haven't heard of The Down Ass Soccer Momz. They're off the chain!

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by countchocula
You obviously haven't heard of The Down Ass Soccer Momz. They're off the chain!

:D

Now THAT'S funny!

[The Postmaster General]

Well, that was a lot to read through. Hey, James - will you give me a shot here? I haven't had much feedback, and I think I've brought up some better points that were sort of lost in the shuffle here.

James, do you feel that people singing in karaoke bars are a talented lot? They are all singing, but that doesn't mean that singing = talent, the same way I feel that not singing (rapping) doesn't = no talent.

You see to equate rapping as knowledge of slang, because when Chcoula said that you prob. couldn't rap, you said that all you'd have is a white boy using <fill in slang term>

We are saying that it is more than that. I don't know if you have any musical education, or have performed with an ensemble -- You say you are Catholic, so I would assume that you have sung in choir. The beats and rhythms used in choir singing are very simple, and IMO don't require much talent. The harmonies and pitches do, though. This could be said the opposite for rap, although I find that rappers whi incorperate harmonies and pitches are MORE talented. There is MUCH more to music than just changin pitch. This is why I brought up the karaoke bar thing -- There is more to talent than just partaking in the act of singing.

But did you cover that territory by saying..... ??

The problem, here, is that you're not taking this is my opinion....
The simple truth is that everyone has their own way to define what's music and what's not, what's art and what's not, and so on and so forth. I know you'll contest that and tell me that, no, music is music and that's it, but if that were the case, then I wouldn't think what I'm thinking, and no one else would agree with me.


Not true. Yes, it is your opinion that you don't like rap music, and that it isn't real music. However, as has been evidenced all through out this thread is that rap music fits the definition of music. It has arrangements of sounds. You make the comparison of putting your fist through a wall, and to that I would say that if there were a mutli-billion dollar demand for putting your fist through a wall, that might be a good analogy. However, if you want to put your fist through a wall and call it music, you would be wrong. You can call it art though.

You are not seeing the difference between being critical and being appreciative. You think that by saying you see why someone saying rap isn't music, you are showing an appreciation for the art form, however, in itself, saying that rap isn't music -- this is a critical statement.

Earlier you mentioned Malevich (not familiar with the artist) saying "I'm not talking about effort, here, mind, I'm talking about how you can call art something that just involves a white, slightly blue square on a slightly whiter background. Maybe there's more to this painting, but all I PERSONALLY see of it is a square on a white background."

However, again, you are not seperating your criticism with your appreciation of the medium. You say that the lot here are getting aggressive, but you are the one taking the leap from just saying you don't like something to saying that it isn't what it says it is. The only reason you say that rap isnt a musical form is because you don't like it, and you are totally aware of this -- Can you see how that would be slightly offensive? It would be like me saying (and forgive my example here, I know it's extreme) France isn't a real country and giving an arbitrary list of reasons why it isn't a country, then when you get offended saying "Hey, ease up man. i just don't like France. You don't have to prove it's a real country. It just doen't have what I think it takes to be a real country. Ease up, there's bigger things to worry about."

Okay, yes I know that there is better reasoning for defending nationality than music tastes, i told you was an extreme example. My point though is that what is really the point of dismissing an entire musical genre just to get your point across. As has been shown, it can make you look really ignorant, and end up leading to lots of UNNECESARY explainations. Really, about a page of this thread was filler..... If you don't like it, you don't like it, but please don't go so far as to disrespect it's fans, and it's artists by saying things like that.

You touched on some of the cross-over stuff, and what-not, but I am curious as to comments on something like BEATLES "#9" which was clearly an experiement. That song was a piece of shit, IMO, but I wouldn't say it's not music. I'd say it was bad music that really fucks up a decent album. I think it's easy to respect The Beatles though. Maybe some day some guy will be talking about how the skits on rap albums aren't real songs and fuck up an album. Things seem to keep repeating themselves.

Hey, is anyone here educated how back in the day Jimi Hendrix was a BAD GUITAR PLAYER WITH NO TALENT because he added minor variations in the Star Spangled Banner, and didn't always produce tones on his instrument? They'll talk about that someday, or you can go to the library and read about it yourself.

The more you read, the more you know!! (and knowing is half the battle)

http://www.richuncleskeleton.com/gijoeImage20.jpg

[James Logan]

Fuck, arguing with Bubba. This is like a video game, getting harder every stage. ;)

I'm just replying real quick, because it's past midnight here and I got an early start tomorrow, but just wanted to say I saw the post, I gotcha, and I'll reply sometime tomorrow. Globally, there's a couple of things in the first part of your post where I don't think you really got my points, and the second half...well, we're working towards a long conversation, but I think, I think I see what's causing all the trouble, and it could be, indeed, my fault, at least in part.

We ain't outta the tunnel just yet, though. But you'll get that reply tomorrow -- my bad for keepin' ya waiting -- and we'll have a good, heads-on arguing and bickering session then.

Lookin' forward to it. ;)

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
See, that's the problem here, and that's the thing people like James fail to understand. Music is not directly related to the talent and effort required to make it. When most people say something is not music, what they mean is 'i think this is so easy and silly to make that i can't put it on the same standard as this bitchin' prog rock band'. Well tough luck, though. It's music.


Read my post again I didn't say it wasn't music. I'm quite aware that it is. I'm just not going to give it the title music. Because imo it doesn't deserve it.

I know by the definition of music that P.C. dance/mixing comes under the term music. But in my view of music I do not count it as music because it's plain shit.

If you don't like that Well tough luck, though. It's my point of view

[James Logan]

All right.

*cracks knuckles and neck*


Here goes nothing. ;)

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

James, do you feel that people singing in karaoke bars are a talented lot? They are all singing, but that doesn't mean that singing = talent, the same way I feel that not singing (rapping) doesn't = no talent.

The beats and rhythms used in choir singing are very simple, and IMO don't require much talent. The harmonies and pitches do, though. This could be said the opposite for rap, although I find that rappers whi incorperate harmonies and pitches are MORE talented. There is MUCH more to music than just changin pitch. This is why I brought up the karaoke bar thing -- There is more to talent than just partaking in the act of singing.


Well, first off, like I've said before, to me, this is NOT a talent or effort issue. I've said something like 17,824 times in this topic that I do think rappers have talent, and I'm sure they work very hard, and they're doing stuff that I, personally, could not do. But that doesn't make me call it music, either -- that just means they're doing something challenging. A 360° slam dunk is challenging, and it takes talent and effort, but it's not music, you know what I mean?

And no, I never sang in a choir, except in a school reconstitution of WEST SIDE STORY. ;) La-la-la-la America!

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

You see to equate rapping as knowledge of slang, because when Chcoula said that you prob. couldn't rap, you said that all you'd have is a white boy using <fill in slang term>


Again, like I told Frank the Tank, and like I thought was clear in the post, that part of the post was a joke, playing on the stereotype of the middle-class white boy who equates rap with bling bling "my nigger" gangsta rap. But like I said before, this being the second time someone thought I was actually serious with that, I'll have to take it out of my stand up comedy act, because if I keep it, looks like I'm gonna bomb.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Not true. Yes, it is your opinion that you don't like rap music, and that it isn't real music. However, as has been evidenced all through out this thread is that rap music fits the definition of music. It has arrangements of sounds. You make the comparison of putting your fist through a wall, and to that I would say that if there were a mutli-billion dollar demand for putting your fist through a wall, that might be a good analogy. However, if you want to put your fist through a wall and call it music, you would be wrong. You can call it art though.

The only reason you say that rap isnt a musical form is because you don't like it, and you are totally aware of this -- Can you see how that would be slightly offensive?


I can. This might be my fault, because I haven't been clear enough with this, and looking back and putting myself in other people's shoes I see how this might be ambiguous, but I think this is where we can all find a meeting ground, so here goes.

I'm not contesting rap fitting the basic, general definition of music. I'm not contesting rap fitting the dictionary's definition of music.

However, I am saying that rap does not fit into my definition of music. That's why I've been saying from the start that what I'm expressing is an opinion, and not trying to put forward what I see as fact.

That's what I was trying to get across with the abstract art comparison. I'm not contesting abstract art fitting the general, usually accepted definition of visual art. If I look in my dictionary, art is defined as "the production or expression, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance, or subject to aesthetic criteria". That makes abstract art art.
But in my book, visual art, and here paintings and drawings and the like, is the production or expression of an aesthetic vision, respecting certain principles (no matter what those principles are), and creatively challenging. That's why, in my book -- "I'm sorry, but that's not art."

Same works with that punch-through-the-wall-as-art thing you brought up (and actually makes me smile every time :)). Yes, I could pass it off as art, because it fits that general definition of art.
But in my book, and by my perception of what art is and should be, it's not art.

Take a basketball jumpshot. The definition of a jumpshot is shooting the ball towards the hoop with intention to score, from a certain distance, using a one- or two-feet jump to gain elevation on the shot. By that definition, every jumpshot is a jumpshot.
But in my book, as someone who's played and studied b-ball for a few years, a jumpshot has to respect certain principles, and achieve a certain efficiency. When I go to a team practice, and see this friend of mine shoot this completely weird shot with his elbows tugged out, and falling slightly sideways and slightly forward, and always hitting the side or top of the backboard, I reserve the right to say that, in my book, "I'm sorry, but dude, that's not a jumpshot."

Take an amateur home movie, shot on a crappy video camera by a 12-year old, with no plot or vision or message or intention or whatever, in which he just puts together shots of his backyard, shots of his sister naked under the shower, shots of his family at Disneyland. By the generally-accepted definition of a movie, that being "a sequence of consecutive pictures of objects photographed in motion by a specially designed camera and projected or shown on a screen so as to give the illusion of movement", then that's a movie.
But in my book, my vision of filmmaking requiring a certain knowledge of the craft or at least point, when I watch that amateur home made movie, I'll go -- "I'm sorry, but that's not a movie."

The exact same thing works with rap music to me. If we take the generally-accepted, dictionary-approved, grammatically-correct definition of music, "arranged sound in time which expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through rhythm and tones or sounds employed in single or multiple lines (respectively melody and harmony)", then, yes, rap is music.
If we take my definition of music, in my book, then I'm sorry, rap isn't music (by my perception). Because in my book, music needs to be more than "talking" (I mean "rapping", but you know what I mean) fast, loud, or supposedly rhythmically, over a generally-unoriginal beat. And that's how I see 99% of rap, and that's why, in my book, and by my definition of music, "I'm sorry, but that's not music."

Maybe that's just because I'm missing something. Maybe that's because I'm backwards. But you know what? No matter how hard I try, and I do, it's a fact, and it's staying a fact.

Originally posted by Scorpio24
Read my post again I didn't say it wasn't music. I'm quite aware that it is. I'm just not going to give it the title music. Because imo it doesn't deserve it.

If you don't like that Well tough luck, though. It's my point of view

Scorpio makes that point of view pretty clear in this post. Just look at the post, and put the emphasis on "I didn't say it wasn't music" and "I'm just not going to give it the title music, because IMO it doesn't deserve it".

I have absolutely no problem taking my part of responsability in this little argument heating up, because a) I just have a great time when this kind of thing gets going, and b) looking back on my posts, there's a definite ambiguity, because even though I used the words "my definition of music" or "to me" or "in my opinion" several times, I also used the all-englobing "music" term much more often. But I honestly don't think that makes a difference at all, because it's like you guys aren't trying either, or aren't even reading what we give ya. Since the beginning of this thread, here's the replies we've been getting:

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
... rap IS music, dude..

Originally posted by The Heart Collector

Because, of course, when you say today's rap, you are referring to commercial rap, and since you're making the assumption that because commercial rap is bad then today's rap is bad, then I will feel free to assume that today's rock is an abortion because Nickelback exists.

Originally posted by The Heart Collector

This argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
You know, I don't mean to sound like a colossal ass who throws racist accusations at everyone, but their only similarity is that black people sing it.

Originally posted by The Heart Collector

What the original sentence meant was that the only way I can see someone thinking there's no difference between rap and r&b is if they think all black music is the same.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

And rapping takes a bit more skill than just talking to a beat.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Try educating yourself, and doing it yourself.

Originally posted by beastieben21
You can't argue the merits of something you don't know a lot about.

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
I guarantee you, every single angle you mentioned is utterly false.


Originally posted by The Heart Collector
There's no argument.

Originally posted by beastieben21

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!?


Originally posted by beastieben21
Until you listen to what's considered "good" rap, you can't pass a verdict on the entire genre.

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
Music is not directly related to the talent and effort required to make it.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

James, do you feel that people singing in karaoke bars are a talented lot? They are all singing, but that doesn't mean that singing = talent, the same way I feel that not singing (rapping) doesn't = no talent.


Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

You see to equate rapping as knowledge of slang, because when Chcoula said that you prob. couldn't rap, you said that all you'd have is a white boy using <fill in slang term>


Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I don't know if you've had any musical education...

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

The more you read, the more you know!! (and knowing is half the battle)


Basically post after post after post either assuming to know what we meant without us saying it, or repeating the argument that we don't know what we're talking about (despite both Scorpio and me saying we did know at least some about it), or claiming we made it an issue of talent and effort (when not only we haven't, but have repeated after every one of those attacks that we didn't, and that that wasn't the point).

Honestly. It's funny because every one of the people who came claiming that in their opinion (and this being important, because everyone included "IMO"s in their posts) rap didn't fit their definition of music has been misunderstood. B1rd, me, and now Scorpio. Not only misunderstood once, but misunderstood over and over and over again, and on the same points.

When I keep seeing that and reading that, I can only go to one of two conclusions: either we're not speaking the same language, or you guys are so worked up over us thinking differently, that without really reading what we're saying, most of you assume we're stripping rap of its dignity and spitting on the talent and effort that it takes to produce rap. Basically assuming we're looking down on rap and treating it like it didn't involve creativity, talent, or effort, when we haven't said that. Just plain haven't.

Like I said, I got absolutely no problem saying that I probably wasn't very clear on the point that I'm talking about my definition of music and not music in the most general, and most accepted, definition of the term.

The problem for me, is that THC, you guys, don't even seem to be reading our points, because you're just sending the same arguments back our way despite us already saying that's not what we're talking about at all anyway. The talent thing comes over and over again. The effort thing comes over and over again. The ignorance thing comes over and over again. When I've stated over and over again that I wasn't contesting the talent or effort rap demands, and that I do know rap to a certain, sufficient extent.

What do you guys answer to that? You bring back the talent, effort, and ignorance thing over again. Which either means you don't care what we're saying, or just think we're idiots, or are just so offended and playing for keeps that you read two sentences, assume you know what we're saying, and just dish out pre-prepared arguments. And that's no way to have a conversation -- definitely not one that's gonna be getting anywhere.

The bottom line is this: I personally can't and won't give most rap the title of "music", because IN MY OPINION, IN MY BOOK, it just is -- not -- music. And I got absolutely no problem with anyone saying they disagree with my book, or my book sucks. That's also an opinion, and anyone's free to have it. But there's no way anyone's making me change my book just because they disagree with it or don't take the time to understand what I mean by it. If you don't like that, then, to quote Scorpio -- tough luck.

Again, I'm sorry for the long reply, tried getting it shorter through a couple of edits, but really -- the core of my point, that I've been trying to make, is in the middle, the part with the abstract art, the ugly jumpshot, and the home made amateur movie. All I'm saying is that yes, rap fits the generally-accepted Webster's dictionary definition of music, but it doesn't fit my definition of music, the same way as Malevich doesnt fit my definition of art, and the same way as an unbalanced, uncoordinated, unefficient jumpshot doesn't fit my definition of a jumpshot. And I'm also saying that even though that might be maddening, I'm not going to change my definition of things, which is definitely influenced by my perception and appreciation of them (as it is with everyone), just because someone disagrees and might have his feelings slightly hurt.

I'm obviously sorry if I haven't made that distinction between "music" and "my definition of music" clear from the get-go. But it is very, very hard to be understood when people don't seem to be listening. ;)

[SAI]

Originally posted by James Logan
in my book
You wrote a book? What's it called and where can we get it?

On topic:
I like MORE rock than i do rap but the best examples of both types of MUSIC (sorry Logan, just cause you don't like it doesn't mean it's not music) are eqaully as good as one another.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by SAI
You wrote a book? What's it called and where can we get it?


"The Complete Idiot's Guide to Amazing Anal Sex", available in any good adult bookstore.

Buy it. Knock yourself out. ;)

[The Heart Collector]

The thing with opinions is, this isn't really an opinion kinda issue. This is more of a 'correlation between an object and a definition' kinda issue. If we were discussing whether rap music is good or not, then sure, go ahead and dislike it. I dislike math, but I'm not going to say differential equations are BIOLOGY.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
The thing with opinions is, this isn't really an opinion kinda issue. This is more of a 'correlation between an object and a definition' kinda issue.

Well, when I read this, I can only think of one of two things.

Either you're still not reading what I'm saying, and haven't read my last post, where I clearly stated, again, that all I'm talking about is my opinion.

Or, after a week of me trying to actually be clear, you're still not getting what I'm trying to say, despite my last post stating that I got that you guys were taking my opinion as me debating the definition of "music", and actually making it clear enough for my kid brother to understand that I'm just saying that I define music in a specific way, and that all I'm saying is that rap doesn't fall into MY definition of music.

Whichever it is, you seem to know what I'm saying better than even I do (oh, of course, I'm talking about a correlation between an object and a definition. I'm sorry. I'll just go back and take out all the "in my book"s and the "in my opinion"s and the "if you ask me"s of my previous post and the ones before that -- what was I thinking?). That, or you just don't admit that someone might have a different definition and perception of what music is to them than you do.

In either case, I'm starting to wonder what I'm still doing here, because let's face it, this is starting to remind me of the last time I tried to have a conversation with a wall.

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
The thing with opinions is, this isn't really an opinion kinda issue. This is more of a 'correlation between an object and a definition' kinda issue. If we were discussing whether rap music is good or not, then sure, go ahead and dislike it. I dislike math, but I'm not going to say differential equations are BIOLOGY.

Yes. But again and I don't know what other way to say this. We are not denying that it is not music. We just choose not to call it that because in our opinion it is not something we feel we want to call music.;)

[Scorpio24]

Sorry Logan didn't see you're post till after I posted my own. Kinda stepped on your point there huh:D

[James Logan]

Go ahead, step on it, step on it!

Maybe that's all we need for it to actually be noticed. ;)

[The Heart Collector]

Originally posted by Scorpio24
Yes. But again and I don't know what other way to say this. We are not denying that it is not music. We just choose not to call it that because in our opinion it is not something we feel we want to call music.;)

That's pretty silly. Music is not a qualificative adjective or whatever.

[BadCoverVersion]

I disapprove of the notion of dismissing an entire genre of music because it doesn't satisfy your musical palate...I understand what you're trying to say Logan, but we're not reading from your 'book' here.

You've illustrated your point well, but rap is - by definition - a form of music.

As for the initial question, it would depend solely on the artiste. I'd happily take Mike Skinner, Dizzee, The Roots over 'The Floyd' and much of The Beatles output (controversial :o) but I'd probably listen to Chas 'N' Dave or Black Lace before polluting mine ears with the likes of GLC, Nelly and recent Eminem.

[The Postmaster General]

Sorry James, but my post wasn't meant to provide an arguement. The first half was intented to illustrate how the phrase "Rap isn't music" comes across. The second half was intented to illustrate how others might perceive such a statement, and perhaps explain why you felt you were going blue in the face. I'm very aware that you had already addressed those points, that's why I said so about mid-way through the post. However, you are acting like everyone is going ape shit because they won't hear you say that rap isn't music, but I'm pretty sure you are the one who is going ape-shit because you are saying something that just isn't true, and trying to rationalze it by saying "in my book". That was the entire point of my post, James - this is your opinion, and you are trying desperately to bring it across as fact, even though you are being very humble about all of it, you are still trying to qualify something that doesn't need to be qualified.

You don't like rap. 'nuff said. Why do you feel it's necessary, and why can you not understand how it's insultful to dismiss it as what it says it is. That's taking it too far. To me, it doesn't matter, because i know what's going on, but to others -- Well, you said so yourself. You see why it's not cool to hear someone attack something they appreciate in such a way.

I was waiting for someone else to bring this up, but I guess I'll have to be the big jerk once again -

Hey, remember when people weren't convinced that slaves should be considered people?

Hey-o!

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
That's pretty silly. Music is not a qualificative adjective or whatever.

I think you're strange. And strange people aren't humans in my eyes. You're not a human to me.

[The Heart Collector]

tell all the english boys you meet
about the american boy back in the states
the american boy you used to date
who would do anything you say

[countchocula]

I hate rap. It's not even music.

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by beastieben21
I think you're strange. And strange people aren't humans in my eyes. You're not a human to me.

This coming from the same guy who called ME childish and immature...

:D

[beastieben21]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
This coming from the same guy who called ME childish and immature...

:D

Oh, I'm childish as they come! However, it was a bit more of a sardonic dig at James' stance that, given his definitions of music, he doesn't consider rap to be a part of it. Given my definitions of a human, the Heart Collector doesn't fit.

Ugh, I'm lonely AND childish...

[MinimalistCouch]

both rap and rock suck ass

[James Logan]

Originally posted by BadCoverVersion
I understand what you're trying to say Logan, but we're not reading from your 'book' here.

See, this, I'm perfectly fine with. Absolutely, perfectly fine. Because I've been talking about "my book" and "my opinion" since the start of this thing. Because this girl actually tells me that she reads what I'm saying, she gets what I'm saying, only we're not talking about my "book" and my definition of things, but about what everyone's definition of music is. This I'm fine with. This is the result of the conversation.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Hey, remember when people weren't convinced that slaves should be considered people?

This, however, has got to be the most pointless, blown-out-of-proportion, fucked up thing anyone's said in this thread, if you ask me, and we've all said pointless and fucked up things, including many times me. It actually even tops the earlier racist accusation suggestions.

It'd bother me, but I'm actually disappointed by reading something like that from you, Bubba. I ain't even gonna answer to that, and I ain't even gonna have a fight for it, because it's just not plain fucking worth it.

I barely ever, ever, get "ape shit" or pissed. Whoever's known me for even just a couple weeks know that. And it ain't like I'm asking much. BCV basically told me to go stuff my book, because she understand what I means, but to her that's not the issue, and I got absolutely no problem with that. That's all I was going for -- a "I hear what your opinion is, and I understand where you're coming from, but the issue here is that, other than you and a couple of others, we all consider the phrase "is not music" as statement of fact, and not as you think as a use of the word in a statement of opinion, and that's why we're not getting through to each other." You could've even given me the finger while saying that, I'd have taken it with a smile and a "sure, then, we got no problem." But, of course, to get to that point, you guys'd have had to actually pay attention to what other people are saying, like BCV did, but apparently you weren't in the mood to do that this week.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
That was the entire point of my post, James - this is your opinion, and you are trying desperately to bring it across as fact...

Again, man, seriously -- let's start reading what other people are saying here, for fuckin' Christ's sake. I've been here two hours every day for the past week, stating over and over and over again that I'm talking about my OPINION and that not once have I even thought of suggesting it was a fact. I've said so, I've said so again, I've said so again, and again, and again. Scorpio fuckin' said so three times.

I hate getting mad, because to me, 99% of the time, it's the reaction of someone who's not smart enough to get his point across coolly. But for fuck's sake, this has just been getting utterly ridiculous, and it's just to the point where I don't give a shit how the reaction looks, or how anyone might use this to feel or claim they "won" this goddamn argument. I've spent this whole fucking thread speaking about my opinion, and repeating that this was my opinion, and the only answer I get is that I should stop trying to pass something that's not true as a fact. Who in the mighty blue fuck have I said I was talking about fact? No-fucking-where.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Sorry James, but my post wasn't meant to provide an arguement.

Yeah, that's what I should've realized earlier. Remember this?

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
There's no argument..

I should've picked up on the pattern sooner. Your posts aren't here to provide an argument, and neither were those of the Heart Collector. Your posts were there to tell us to shut the fuck up, and let you pass judgments and make up whole posts about ours without even caring to read what we're saying, because, hey, after all, we're "ignorant", or "racist", or, apparently, so narrow-minded that had we lived three hundred years ago we'd have been running a slave ring.

You guys are just saying plain and clear what I should've seen since the beginning -- to you, this isn't an argument, and your posts aren't meant to provide an argument. They're meant to provide a lesson to stupid little me, who's foolishly trying to express a different opinion than yours on a subject that apparently is so dear to you guys that you figure it's more important to throw around big pompous accusations and play on words than actually argue. Maybe the fact that this, to you guys, isn't an argument also explains why there's a thinly-disguised insult in the middle of every other one of your posts since this thing started.

You guys can start bashing the crap out of me now, I got absolutely problem with it. This "non-argument" isn't worth time, and probably hasn't been from the start, and I ain't gonna lose any more time or energy replying to what's pretty much been the most useless, basic, one-way "conversation" I've had since I stopped playing with yellow Fischer-Price trucks. So go ahead, make me the bad guy, blame the childishness and the anger and the whole failure on me, I'm fine by that. I know some of you want to, and I know most of you probably will despite disguising themselves as the bigger men just trying to help the childish 19-year old understand how a conversation actually works. Go ahead. Make puns, word games, little private jokes. Knock yourselves out. At least someone'll come out of this feeling good and satisfied.

But really, I'm sorry, this is actually all probably my bad. What jackass comes to a discussion bord actually wanting to have a discussion, heh?

[The Postmaster General]

The slavery thing was a joke, James. That's why I followed it up with "Hey-o!" I looked for images of Ed McMahon to go along with the "Hey-O!" but couldn't find any that were funny enough.

You got the whole non-arguement point just fine, but I think you are taking it way too personally, man. You are the one who initially brought up the "ape-shit" comment, and my only intent was to show you WHY everyone might be going ape shit. You even said you understood this, but still acted like it was everyone else, not you.

I keep reading your comments that no one is reading your posts, but I've said three times ... Damn, i don't even remember, but I've said lots of things multiple times concerning the fact that my MO isn't in saying you are wrong, but to explain why you aren't getting a decent conversation going. Reread comments like noting that a page of this thread seems like filler to me. How can you spark up a conversation when your topic is rap isn't music, end of story? You can't and that's obvious by the condition you are finding this thread to be in. "Ape shit" is how you put it.

You are saying you've been disappointed in me, but come on, man -- I'm not trying to bash you or anything. As far as I can tell, I haven't even really taken a side, aside from my obvious position. But I'm trying to show you where the communication is breaking down. It's not even anyone's fault, but since you are a mature person who has shown some open-mindedness, I figured you would be a good person to address in lieu of keeping the conversation in perspective. If you want to look at it like I'm trying to teach you a lesson or something, that's fine -- I'd rather you look at it like I'm saying "Yo, James. Apeshit? Stones in glass houses, buddy. Watch out there, you have more to say than just that I'm sure. Everyone is going to sell you short and the topic will go no where on that note."

Whatever the case -- I think a lot of it all comes down to:

James' definition of ape shit == going to great lengths to argue that rap is really music.

Bubba's definition of ape shit = going to great lengths to say you don't like rap music.


Oh and just for the record, James: you can shove that book up where the sun don't shine!! (Northern Canada!)

[James Logan]

All right, I know I said I wouldn't reply, so call me a flip-flopper. But Bubba's extending a hand here, and I might be a fucker in many other cases, but I'm not gonna refuse an extended hand.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
The slavery thing was a joke, James. That's why I followed it up with "Hey-o!" I looked for images of Ed McMahon to go along with the "Hey-O!" but couldn't find any that were funny enough.


Let's start with the apologies. ;) Don't know Ed McMahon well, didn't get the joke. Knowing that, definitely over-reacted. But you had to know that'd get to me, you smart ass. ;)

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

You are saying you've been disappointed in me, but come on, man...


This goes in hand with the previous one, and, well, apologies again. I'll find a pretext to tag you as "disappointing" later, but let's consider that for now you sidestepped that landmine. ;)

I'm not gonna quote the rest of the post, but hey, here's what I'm suggesting -- this has been going on for a week and, obviously, no one is understanding anyone. My fault, your fault, their fault, everyone's fault, whatever. We've all, including me, done more than enough of the petty thinly disguised "fuck-you"s and playing on words, so I don't feel like doing even more of it.

Here's what I'm suggesting -- let's take it from here, I'll make a statement that's as clear as I can to show that I'm talking about opinion and not fact, I'll put in bold, and that's pretty much the essence of what I've been saying since the start of this whole thing. Only this time, I'll give as much as I can give, and try and get that point across as clearly as possible, and hopefully that'll be enough for you all.


I am not trying to say that, to me, rap is, in fact, not music. If this is the sentence you all need to hear to settle back, then yes, rap is music.

When I say "99% of rap, to me, isn't music", and what I've been trying to explain from the get-go with this in every way I could think of, is that I have, personally, a certain perception of music, that is more restrictive than "just" music, involves singing or at least rhythmic rapping (see, giving you a little something here ;)), and generally music that goes beyond a plain, simple beat. It's an opinion, it's a personal definition and perception, so obviously it's subjective.

That's what I've been trying to express through the abstract art / jumpshot / home made amateur movie analogies. The "It's not rap" expression is more just that -- an expression -- then me saying it's technically and factually not music, because I'm not saying that. I'm using the phrase in the sense I'd use it when I see that all-white painting and go "That's not even art", or when I see an ugly, odd, no technique jumpshot and go "Man, that's not a jumpshot, that's just throwing the ball", or when I hear a boom-boom-boom techno track and go "Dude, that's not even music, it's just noise".

I'm trying not to dismiss rap as a genre, because I know that's offensive, and that's why throughout I've always done my best to say "most of today's rap" or "most rap" or "99% of rap". That's also why I said several times that, to me, Tupac, Eminem, Outkast, and so on, have made some songs which a) are rap and b) fit into my view of music.

I also thought it was clear I'm talking of my opinion, as I've said several times "in my book", or "in my eyes", or "in my opinion", or "if you ask me". That's why BCV's reaction to my posts worked fine for me, because all she told me is pretty much "well, I think everyone else is talking about fact, when you're talking about opinion". Which goes down way, way, better than just a slightly agressive, somewhat cocky "There's no argument" or "You don't know what you're talking about", and I'm sure everyone'll agree about that.

If everyone's getting worked up because they think I'm talking about fact, then we got no problem, because I'm not saying that. And I've repeated it over and over again. Fact is: rap is music. Only from my point of view, any arranged sound is factually music, and that's why I'm trying to talk about the difference about my opinion and the facts -- without contesting the facts, but just saying that in my perception of things, fewer things can qualify as music, and most rap doesn't.

One way to put my position is this: I definitely don't like most rap. I think everybody got that. ;) My use of the expression "It isn't music", is saying that, in my mind, and in my perception and qualification of music, most rap doesn't fit, in part because I dislike it, but not only -- there's music I don't like, but that qualifies as music in my book, because they have more than just a beat as instrumentals, and they have singing or very definite rhythm in the lyrics.

My point being this:

FACT -- Rap is music.
OPINION -- In my view of what music is, 99% of rap isn't it.

That's as clearly, calmly, peacefully as I can put it. It's my point, expressed like I did several times before, but it's got the clarification of fact everyone seems to be getting worked up about despite me saying I wasn't talking about fact. Whether that's because I wasn't clear enough, or because you just weren't getting me, or both, isn't the problem in the end -- the point is here's as clear and non-confrontational as I can express the exact same position I've been trying to express from the start.


And yes, I know I could've just deleted the earlier post that has as many expletives as Joe Pesci's funny speech in GOODFELLAS. But that'd've been backpedalling. And besides, the truth is, that's exactly how I felt then, and that's exactly how I feel now too, excepted taking your (and by you, I mean just you, Bubba) post and wanting to meet you in the middle here because you're out on a limb too. Only I used my last two out of three posts to be as clear and non-confrontational about what I'm saying, and if you guys still aren't happy with this one, then I don't know what I'm gonna have to do, because I'm definitely not changing my position. But I feel this whole shabang is more a problem of communication than anything else.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Oh and just for the record, James: you can shove that book up where the sun don't shine!! (Northern Canada!)

Like Northern Canada doesn't have enough problems already, you bastard. ;)

[Scorpio24]

Originally posted by James Logan
All right, I know I said I wouldn't reply, so call me a flip-flopper. But Bubba's extending a hand here, and I might be a fucker in many other cases, but I'm not gonna refuse an extended hand.



Let's start with the apologies. ;) Don't know Ed McMahon well, didn't get the joke. Knowing that, definitely over-reacted. But you had to know that'd get to me, you smart ass. ;)



This goes in hand with the previous one, and, well, apologies again. I'll find a pretext to tag you as "disappointing" later, but let's consider that for now you sidestepped that landmine. ;)

I'm not gonna quote the rest of the post, but hey, here's what I'm suggesting -- this has been going on for a week and, obviously, no one is understanding anyone. My fault, your fault, their fault, everyone's fault, whatever. We've all, including me, done more than enough of the petty thinly disguised "fuck-you"s and playing on words, so I don't feel like doing even more of it.

Here's what I'm suggesting -- let's take it from here, I'll make a statement that's as clear as I can to show that I'm talking about opinion and not fact, I'll put in bold, and that's pretty much the essence of what I've been saying since the start of this whole thing. Only this time, I'll give as much as I can give, and try and get that point across as clearly as possible, and hopefully that'll be enough for you all.


I am not trying to say that, to me, rap is, in fact, not music. If this is the sentence you all need to hear to settle back, then yes, rap is music.

When I say "99% of rap, to me, isn't music", and what I've been trying to explain from the get-go with this in every way I could think of, is that I have, personally, a certain perception of music, that is more restrictive than "just" music, involves singing or at least rhythmic rapping (see, giving you a little something here ;)), and generally music that goes beyond a plain, simple beat. It's an opinion, it's a personal definition and perception, so obviously it's subjective.

That's what I've been trying to express through the abstract art / jumpshot / home made amateur movie analogies. The "It's not rap" expression is more just that -- an expression -- then me saying it's technically and factually not music, because I'm not saying that. I'm using the phrase in the sense I'd use it when I see that all-white painting and go "That's not even art", or when I see an ugly, odd, no technique jumpshot and go "Man, that's not a jumpshot, that's just throwing the ball", or when I hear a boom-boom-boom techno track and go "Dude, that's not even music, it's just noise".

I'm trying not to dismiss rap as a genre, because I know that's offensive, and that's why throughout I've always done my best to say "most of today's rap" or "most rap" or "99% of rap". That's also why I said several times that, to me, Tupac, Eminem, Outkast, and so on, have made some songs which a) are rap and b) fit into my view of music.

I also thought it was clear I'm talking of my opinion, as I've said several times "in my book", or "in my eyes", or "in my opinion", or "if you ask me". That's why BCV's reaction to my posts worked fine for me, because all she told me is pretty much "well, I think everyone else is talking about fact, when you're talking about opinion". Which goes down way, way, better than just a slightly agressive, somewhat cocky "There's no argument" or "You don't know what you're talking about", and I'm sure everyone'll agree about that.

If everyone's getting worked up because they think I'm talking about fact, then we got no problem, because I'm not saying that. And I've repeated it over and over again. Fact is: rap is music. Only from my point of view, any arranged sound is factually music, and that's why I'm trying to talk about the difference about my opinion and the facts -- without contesting the facts, but just saying that in my perception of things, fewer things can qualify as music, and most rap doesn't.

One way to put my position is this: I definitely don't like most rap. I think everybody got that. ;) My use of the expression "It isn't music", is saying that, in my mind, and in my perception and qualification of music, most rap doesn't fit, in part because I dislike it, but not only -- there's music I don't like, but that qualifies as music in my book, because they have more than just a beat as instrumentals, and they have singing or very definite rhythm in the lyrics.

My point being this:

FACT -- Rap is music.
OPINION -- In my view of what music is, 99% of rap isn't it.

That's as clearly, calmly, peacefully as I can put it. It's my point, expressed like I did several times before, but it's got the clarification of fact everyone seems to be getting worked up about despite me saying I wasn't talking about fact. Whether that's because I wasn't clear enough, or because you just weren't getting me, or both, isn't the problem in the end -- the point is here's as clear and non-confrontational as I can express the exact same position I've been trying to express from the start.


And yes, I know I could've just deleted the earlier post that has as many expletives as Joe Pesci's funny speech in GOODFELLAS. But that'd've been backpedalling. And besides, the truth is, that's exactly how I felt then, and that's exactly how I feel now too, excepted taking your (and by you, I mean just you, Bubba) post and wanting to meet you in the middle here because you're out on a limb too. Only I used my last two out of three posts to be as clear and non-confrontational about what I'm saying, and if you guys still aren't happy with this one, then I don't know what I'm gonna have to do, because I'm definitely not changing my position. But I feel this whole shabang is more a problem of communication than anything else.



Like Northern Canada doesn't have enough problems already, you bastard. ;)


Logan I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.:)

Anyway I would like to second that. I think it's gone off the topic of which we were arguing here and maybe just transended into petty word games either way I don't see how we could run into anymore possible squables over this subject after Logan's last post;)

[The Heart Collector]

James, it still doesn't make sense. You can strap the words 'in your opinion' in front of it all you want, but it's like saying 'human beings are technically mammals, but since I personally think human beings are cooler than mammals, then I'll say that in my opinion, they are not mammals'.

It just doesn't make sense.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector

It just doesn't make sense.

It still doesn't make sense because you're still playing on words.

I've said I was using the "99% of rap isn't music" expression as an expression because I have a view and perception of music that doesn't fit 99% of rap. It's my opinion, my perception -- I've never said it was fact.

I could play on words, too. I could tell you your analogy doesn't make any sense because you're comparing this to a scientific fact, when I'm not talking about science, and comparing a conversation about a certain perception of an art form to saying human beings aren't mammals makes even less sense. But if I did that, you'd just come back with something as petty as stupid, and we'd be...well, right where we're at right now.

I'm talking about an expression I use to note the difference in the broad difference between the factual difference of some things (music, art, jumpshots) and how I view those things in my mind and in my book.

If you can't get that after ALL this, then I sincerely don't know how to put it.

[B1rd_Po0p]

And the debate rages on....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/Chris_Y/dontcare.jpg

[The Postmaster General]

James, you talked earier about learning lessons. I want to show you the lesson I learned in this very thread:

posted by BubbaStrangelove on 4/16:

Give me a break. The last thing this board needs is another "rock and rap are comparable forms of music" thread.

If it's a good song, I could give a rat's ass what genre it's from. The last time I checked, good song writers and musicians weren't discrimative, and aren't limited by any genre.

Picking a genre isn't like picking a sexual preference people. DECIDING a musical preference makes as much sense as deciding you're going to wipe your ass only using the left hand from here on out.

But just out of curiousity, why is it that ONLY people who prefer rock over rap start these threads? Honestly, I can't figure out what you people are trying to prove.


posted by BubbaStrangelove, 6 hours later.....

I just re-read my earlier post after having taken some medication, and realized that I should probably clarify what I meant:

I like 'em both about the same.



I said the exact same thing in both posts, but only the "extreme" post can be argued with, or refuted.

This is kind of what I've been on about -- sometimes it's just easier to rethink how you are getting your point across. Right/wrong -- no one should really care.... unless they have to sift through a page of people going in circles over semantics. :D

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by B1rd_Po0p
And the debate rages on....



I like seeing Gary Coleman as much as the next guy, but I think we are at least finally having a civil discussion. Everyone is putting thought and effort into their posts. You may not care, (at least more than enought to check back on the thread :p) but pelase don't degrade our conversation just because you've excluded yourself.

[The Heart Collector]

James, I get it.


It doesn't mean it makes sense.

[countchocula]

I get a lot of bullshit from my parents because I listen to death metal. "That's not music," they proclaim. I know that it's music, but I also know that my parents' opinions of death metal matter none. I interject this because I think it's about time to get off of Mr. Logan's case. I don't agree with him, but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I'm a proponent of strong debates, but this isn't a strong debate. It has devolved into...

Schmoe A: Rap isn't music.

Schmoe B: Yes, it is.

Schmoe A: No, it's not.

Schmoe B: Yes, it is.

Schmoe A: No, it's not.

Let's change the subject...handjobs, blowjobs, or Doritos?

[countchocula]

By the way, I'm referring to regular Doritos, not Cool Ranch or any other subflavor. So don't even fucking try it!

[Beowulf]

James -

Have you ever taken a course on existentialism? I think you'd really get a kick out of that particular philisophical theory.

:cool:

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I like seeing Gary Coleman as much as the next guy, but I think we are at least finally having a civil discussion. Everyone is putting thought and effort into their posts. You may not care, (at least more than enought to check back on the thread :p) but pelase don't degrade our conversation just because you've excluded yourself.

That wasn't my intention so cool your jets. I was Just having a little fun.

[The Postmaster General]

http://www.recmod.com/frames/blondiepic45.jpg

Fab Five Freddy told me everybody's fly.
D.J. spinning, I said, "My, My."
Flash is fast, flash is cool.
Francois, c'est pas flashe non due.
And you don't stop, sure shot.
Go out to the parking lot.
And you get in your car and drive real far.
And you drive all night and then you see a light.
And it comes right down and it lands on the ground.
And out comes the man from Mars.
And you try to run but he's got a gun.
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head.
And then you're in the man from Mars.
You go out at night eating cars.
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too.
Mercurys and Subaru.
And you don't stop.
You keep on eating cars.
Then when there's no more cars you go out at night
And eat up bars where the people meet.
Face to face.
Dance cheek to cheek.
One to one.
Man to man.
Dance toe to toe.
Don't move too slow 'cause the man from Mars is through with cars.
He's eating bars.
Yeah, wall to wall.
Door to door.
Hall to hall.
He's gonna eat 'em all.
Rapture.
Be pure.
Take a tour through the sewer.
Don't strain your brain.
Paint a train.
You'll be singing in the rain.
Said don't stop to the punk rock.




And for the record: There is no other real lover. I am the only lover there is!! No other lovers exist, they are only men making love. THIS: I know to be true. I know it is true, because every whore in Montreal says it is!!

[B1rd_Po0p]

Y'know Bubba, I was going to mention that song earlier on. Rapture was the first song to feature the rapping techique . I think blonde white women everywhere should reclaim what is rightfully theirs.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm not sure about your grasp on the history of rap, there, but Fab Five Freddy is a rapper who is referenced in the song "Rapture". Also, "Rapture" came out in Winter of 1981. Sugerhill Gangs "Rapper's Delight" came out in the Fall of 1979.


It's funny that one day it's " This music isn't directed towards my demographic" then when Blonde is brought up, it's "blonde white women everywhere should reclaim what is rightfully theirs." :p

Have you ever heard Luscious Jackson?

[B1rd_Po0p]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
I'm not sure about your grasp on the history

My grasp on reality is pretty slippery, Wanna help me with that as well? :p

I have heard one song by Luscious Jackson.

[James Logan]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

I said the exact same thing in both posts, but only the "extreme" post can be argued with, or refuted.


All right, so what about the last long post I posted? Does that work, or am I still too extreme? ;)

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
James, I get it.


It doesn't mean it makes sense.

All right, here's another try. In certain cases, like here, I use "music" as the name of a certain thing I have in mind, a certain perception of music, that's very restrictive, and very subjective. That definition of "music" in my mind isn't the same as the factual definition of music.

If the word "music" in itself is what bothers you so much, then here's what I can give you.

Music is arranged sound in time which expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through rhythm and tones or sounds employed in single or multiple lines. Rap is music.

But in my mind, there's part of music that I'll call, from now on, not "my view of music", but "Schmooze". To me, Schmooze is part of what's factually defined as music. It's restrictive, it's subjective, and it involves singing or rythmic lyrics and/or instrumentals different from what's in 99% of rap.

So my point would be -- rap is music, but most rap isn't Schmooze.

Does that work better? :) Because I'm really starting to feel that the problem's not on what I'm saying, but on the word I'm using ("music"). Which, to me, isn't really the focal point, as I've stated several times that it's MY view of music, but if changing the word is the whole big deal for everyone, then I can do that.

But rap still isn't Schmooze. ;)

[The Postmaster General]

My grasp on reality is pretty slippery, Wanna help me with that as well?

Just don't take the red pill.... Or wait... Is it the blue one? No bother, you better just take both pills and play it safe.


All right, so what about the last long post I posted? Does that work, or am I still too extreme?

Last long post? That doesn't narrow anything down for me!


Music is arranged sound in time which expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through rhythm and tones or sounds employed in single or multiple lines. Rap is music.


Damn, this is a beautiful day. It's like when my dad admited he was an alcoholic!!


It's restrictive, it's subjective, and it involves singing or rythmic lyrics and/or instrumentals different from what's in 99% of rap.

Like with B1rdPo0p, I gotta challenge your grasp on the genre there -- You say 99%, and give examples of the sort of rap you put in that 99% -- I'd say your perception is way off, and tell you that these forms of rap you dislike account for closer to 1% than to 99%. There is so much music out there -- I haven't even heard all of the rap that's out there, and at least once a month I hear another style that is different than what I'm used to.

I think part of the confusion is because you are making everything very DEFINITIVE. You make it sound like you have heard all the rap that is out there, and earlier (RE: rap = music) were making it sound like you had a definition of music that was different than what was the accepted definition.

Me, personally, I feel I have a pretty okay knowledge of musical forms and different styles, artists, genres, and so-forth -- However, I wouldn't dare for an instance to say something that would indicate I have made a final analysis of music as a whole. Even with the understanding I have, I feel that such perspective (regardless of how much it is mine, and mine alone) would consequently make me out to be a "know-it-all" with a great chance of being proven wrong. You can never know too much to have a closed mind when it comes to forms of art, IMO.

I would challenge anyone to name a rapper who represents a particular style, and I will name two rappers with a different, contrasting style. That stands, and I am confident I can do it.

And James, just to make all the rap-heads happy -- Is there ANY rock bands, or artists that you would also consider to not have the "Schmooze" -- Surely there would be, as not all rock music fits that definition. That song "Detachable Penis" comes to mind.....

[James Logan]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Damn, this is a beautiful day. It's like when my dad admited he was an alcoholic!!


Are you comparing me to an alcoholic?

Because that's supposed to be a secret.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

Like with B1rdPo0p, I gotta challenge your grasp on the genre there -- You say 99%, and give examples of the sort of rap you put in that 99% -- I'd say your perception is way off, and tell you that these forms of rap you dislike account for closer to 1% than to 99%. There is so much music out there -- I haven't even heard all of the rap that's out there, and at least once a month I hear another style that is different than what I'm used to.

Oh, I'm not saying I heard all the rap that's out there. I'm saying 99% of the rap I've heard -- but I've heard a lot. The problem with saying "...the rap I've heard" is that you're all gonna assume from the getgo that all I probably know about is just commercial gangsta rap, therefore am ignorant, therefore am wrong. Which is just not plain the case. I got two close friends who're DJs and all about all kinds of rap, I got one friend who raps, and I went to school and am friends with one of the best known break dancers here, who's also very, VERY into rap, and like I said, I got two brothers who listen to rap all day.

What I mean is through them (and because of them knowing I'm not exactly your premier rap fan), I've heard and still hear probably all the kinds of rap, even if you want to define it very loosely -- gangsta rap, B Boy, old and new Battle raps, 80s hardcore rap (where the rap/talk is like what some rock bands use today), love rap, jazz rap, today's commercial hip-hop, underground, some stuff that doesn't even have a name, the French versions of all that, the German versions of all that, the British versions of all that. IAM, Akhenaton, Krom, Afrika Bambaataa, Z-Trip, LL Cool J, Eminem, Nas, Kool Moe Dee, BJ & The Critters, Madvillain, NWA, Snoop, Public Enemy, Tupac, Silver Bullet, Apathy, even some female MCs (one of those friends I mentioned like Salt'n'Peppa), and I could go on and on and there's names I'll never remember. I've even had to sit through some (too much) Vanilla Ice. ;)

I know it's more convenient to blame an opinion like mine on ignorance. Only, I'm afraid in this case, it wouldn't work.

I'm not trying to say I've heard all the rap that exists, mind. Not even close. I've just heard a lot of different kinds, not all but maybe just enough to qualify as "most" (kinds, not songs or MCs), and if you're figuring I have the opinion I have just because I see Fiddy on MTV a couple of times and make a judgment based solely on that and his bling bling buddies, then you'd be wrong. Way wrong.

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

And James, just to make all the rap-heads happy -- Is there ANY rock bands, or artists that you would also consider to not have the "Schmooze" -- Surely there would be, as not all rock music fits that definition. That song "Detachable Penis" comes to mind.....

Definitely. Lots. Rock or other genres. I don't know the..."Detachable Penis" song ( ;)), but it's definitely not a let's-kill-rap vendetta thing. A lot of those William Shatner talk songs don't sound like Schmooze to me. Some of the electro-synthetico-keyboard-like stuff doesn't qualify like Schmooze in my mind. A lot of European repetitive nightclub techno doesn't qualify as Schmooze to me. There's also a bunch of people in France right now (don't know if it's the case everywhere) who just talk and throw in a single (or couple of) note(s) in there every now and then and call it music. I don't. Well, I wouldn't, but now I don't call it Schmooze, as apparently that's the agreement we've reached. ;)

Only rap is a genre where a predominant, or at least much more significant, share of what I've heard doesn't qualify as Schmooze. Not because I think it's "vile" or "bad" necessarily, but because the Schmooze I have in mind doesn't agree well with very talk-like raps and/or the way a lot of people use sampling and/or a fair share of rap beats and/or a combination of one or several of those elements. That's how my view of music, or rather my Schmooze, works.

The thing is, everyone has their own "Schmooze", and that's why I'm surprised with being shot down like a bank robber here. And yes, I know my use of the word "Schmooze" every other sentence is making me sound like a crack junkie, but let's just put that aside for right now. I'm sure everyone here, every single person here, has a certain perception of what visual art is, or what art is, or what craft is, or what filmmaking is, or what music is, or what a movie is, or so on and so forth. Anyone who'll tell me the contrary, I'll have a very hard time to believe, because that's just how the mind works. That my perception of music, or "Schmooze", might be very narrow, restrictive, and subjective is a fact. But unlike some of you all have been saying, that doesn't stop me from being entitled to it, and it never will, and no one has a right to tell me I shouldn't have it -- because I ain't ordering you to change yours.

[The Postmaster General]

've heard and still hear probably all the kinds of rap, even if you want to define it very loosely -- gangsta rap, B Boy, old and new Battle raps, 80s hardcore rap (where the rap/talk is like what some rock bands use today), love rap, jazz rap, today's commercial hip-hop, underground, some stuff that doesn't even have a name, the French versions of all that, the German versions of all that, the British versions of all that. IAM, Akhenaton, Krom, Afrika Bambaataa, Z-Trip, LL Cool J, Eminem, Nas, Kool Moe Dee, BJ & The Critters, Madvillain, NWA, Snoop, Public Enemy, Tupac, Silver Bullet, Apathy, even some female MCs (one of those friends I mentioned like Salt'n'Peppa), and I could go on and on and there's names I'll never remember.


And you still say 99 to 1? I'm just surprised, that's all.


I've even had to sit through some (too much) Vanilla Ice.


You ever hear "Havin' a Roni" ? I'd like to see someone try to argue, with a straight face, that this song is schmooze -- In all fairness, it fits your definition, but man, even I wouldn't argue about that song not being real music. :D

[James Logan]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove

And you still say 99 to 1? I'm just surprised, that's all.


Yeah, I know. That's why when you said before I was being "humble" about it -- it's not so much being humble than knowing that there MUST be something I'm missing.

The thing is, I've been trying to study music even a little more lately, because I think, as a filmmaker, I can learn from the rhythms and so on. And I consciously know where a lot of rap is coming from, the way it ties in to a lot of other types of music that I do like (and do consider "Schmooze").

But like I said, I just don't get it. 9 times out of 10, if you gimme a rap song, something'll block. I'm sure it's with me, and I'm sure it's a shame, but despite efforts, that seems to be how it is.

I wouldn't mind it changing, mind -- never fun to have everyone around you get something and you don't. ;) But it really just doesn't fit, so far at least.

[electriclite]

Originally posted by James Logan
Well, first of all, guys? Little less caffein, or little more Valium. ;) (I kid, I kid)

Second of all, here's a comparison I think will work better for you.

Abstract paintings.

A lot of people agree that abstract paintings are art, some of it being the work of genius, and that "White Square on White Background" is a masterpiece. I, for one, believe abstract paintings are just lines and crosses and zigzags, or sometimes nothing at all, and personally would not call it art. And I know a thousand people, including some of you, who'll look at a piece of abstract art, and go -- "I'm sorry, but that's not art".

That's how rap music works with me. Everybody today loves it, and I'm sure there's a reason to that, but I personally feel the same way about it than I do about abstract art -- "I'm sorry, but that's not music."

I can definitely understand that being revolting. I know that if someone told me Frank Sinatra wasn't music, I'd want to kick his ass, and you guys have every right to try and kick mine. But the same way as I don't get abstract "art" being art, I don't get rap "music" being music.

And unfortunately, no amount of arguing is going to change that. The only thing that'll change it is having three, four, five rappers come along, and prove to me on a consistent basis that it's music -- and by "prove to me", I mean what I say, that is "get me convinced".

And yes, ELEPHANT fucking blew. ;)

See that kind of analogy only works if you don't know what music is or what defines it. This is clearly a question of preference.

I don't like a lot of contemporary art because its not my thing. You dig David Hockney, great! I'll be skimming through my Romaine Brooks book.

I don't like country music not because I don't consider it music, but because I don't consider it good - to me! And Garth Brooks, Tobey Keith and the Dixie Chicks are in NO WAY gonna be able to change that!

[James Logan]

Originally posted by electriclite
See that kind of analogy only works if you don't know what music is or what defines it.

We've gone a long way since there, and again, was talking about "my view of music" (or what we've now all decided to call "Schmooze", apparently) and not "music" per se.

I mean, c'mon -- we're not gonna go through all that again, are we?